Talia in California

[00:00:00] people don't do decisions as big as this alone. And yet I feel like this thought process and sort of the decisions that I've been thinking about and making along the way have been in isolation.

[00:00:50] Most of us, well, we suck at it. So one of my goals with this podcast is to have more conversations and hopefully better conversations with attempt survivors in large part to help more people in more places hopefully feel a little less shitty and a little less alone. Now, if you are a suicide attempt survivor and you'd like to talk, please reach out. Hello at suicidenoted.com. You can check the show notes to learn more about this podcast, including our membership and the Noted Network.

[00:01:17] I want to thank 11 Labs. It's an organization, a software platform that is extending three months of free dubbing services to me, to this podcast, to explore offering these episodes in other languages. We're just getting started. We're just figuring out. I want to thank them. And I also want to thank a handful of people who recently made a financial contribution to this podcast.

[00:01:40] MJ, MJ, Glenn, Sherry, Matt, Elle, Alyssa, and Mary, a.k.a. Queen Mary, friend of mine from the storytelling world. I thank you all. There's also some of you who have contributed through Red Circle, which is the podcast host. I don't have your name, so I can't thank you publicly, but I see you. I appreciate you. I thank you for helping out and supporting. Finally, we are talking about suicide on this podcast. We don't hold back, so please take that into account before you listen or as you listen.

[00:02:10] But I do hope you listen because there is so much to learn. Today, I am talking with Talia. Talia lives in California, and she is a near-suicide attempt survivor. Hey, Talia. Hi, Sean. You're sipping on probably not water. It's mezcal that my aunt gave me. Uh-huh. So you're Mexican? Yes. Well, my dad's family is. Okay. How did we find each other?

[00:02:36] I listened to your podcast. I actually don't quite remember the first time I listened to it. I found it through Spotify, but I've been listening to it more in the past year or so. It's particularly relevant to me, and I suppose I could have emailed you or reached out at some other earlier point, but a few weeks ago, I decided to do so because I just kind of felt like it was the time.

[00:03:06] I was fed up with not talking about suicide. Yeah. Like my own suicidality. You said you find it on Spotify, but why are you looking? Were you suicidal at the time? Yes. How long ago was that? I have thought about suicide almost every day for at least a year and a half. And before that, never or sometimes?

[00:03:27] Uh, sometimes. Before that, the nearest period where I really can remember thinking about ending my life was in 2021 around the winter. And are you in your 20s? Yes. I'm in my early 20s. I'm two years out of college. All right. 2021. And then it ramps up kind of a year and a half ago. Well, a year and a half ago, you looked for the something and you stumbled upon this podcast and you listened some.

[00:03:56] Not that long ago, you were like, I got to talk more about it in a way that I want to talk about. And you gave me that privilege by letting me do it. And I hope you have other people to do it with, but I know some people don't. Really, other than the therapist I see currently, not really. I've mentioned it to a couple other people, but I feel like I'm stretching something there. Like they, in some way, let you know, maybe don't bring this up again.

[00:04:23] Yeah, I don't. Yeah. I think also this, that the time that I reached out, um, came after like at least a year, like almost two years of me thinking, you know, while I'm like working and living just in general, like thinking about my life and where like I want it to go.

[00:04:45] And, and it just, it still is so weird and odd to me that like the biggest issue question dilemma of my life so far, but also I believe that could stretch into the future is basically whether to live at all. People don't do decisions as big as this alone. People don't buy a house alone, typically. Right, right.

[00:05:12] People don't decide to have a child alone, typically. There's so many other like really big decisions in your life that you just don't do alone. You don't just do in isolation. And yet I feel like this thought process and sort of the decisions that I've been thinking about and making along the way have been in isolation. Right now I've just been like, you know, I've gotten to the point, like I have a plan. I have a means and access to it. I even have a loose timeline.

[00:05:42] So now I'm like, well, you know what I haven't done? You know what I haven't really thought about as much is, is talking about it and like trying to communicate it with people. And that's, and it's, it's interesting to me like why people, some people want to talk about it. Maybe it's just to get it out with me and, or, you know, I want other people to hear this because maybe it'll help them out in some way. Like, is that your thing? And there's no, it's not a loaded question. I'm just curious.

[00:06:09] I haven't found another like real forum or platform like yours. Good luck looking and finding that shit. I don't know. Maybe if I lived in the Netherlands or like, right, like someplace where there's like, you know, a pathway, even like a real pathway for, for people with a broad, broader scope of terminal illness to end of their own lives. Like maybe they have some sort of thing, right? In the US, no, like there's just not.

[00:06:36] So here we are. Have you actually ever attempted? No. How close have you gotten? I've held a vial of cyanide. I don't know much about cyanide. Is that something you wallow? Yes. I mean, like people, I mean, people have used it as a method of suicide, like historically able to put it into capsules that you can like crush in your mouth to release it.

[00:07:03] But yeah, it would be something that I could put into water. It's fairly solid in water and swallow. Is it worth asking, how did you find cyanide? I don't think it's super easy to find that. Is that a conversation topic? Potentially. I, so I work in a laboratory. So a research laboratory.

[00:07:26] And so I have access to it there, but I've also like looked it up online and there are retailers online claiming to sell it as like something. I think it has some sort of agricultural use as well. The thing is though, with buying chemicals online, not that are not research grade is that you might not get what you're looking at. And right.

[00:07:52] Unless you are purchasing them for, you know, a job or in connection with like a research laboratory or an analytical laboratory. You don't have a way of, of really figuring out what it is you're buying. So when you were talking earlier and we'll get into this more, if you'd like, I'd like to about means and loose timeline. And is that the method? Same method. Yes.

[00:08:17] When you say loose timeline, is that a day, a week, a year, or is it just so loose that you can't answer that question? Right now I'm giving myself a year, like almost a year to this day. There's got to be a reason why. My lease provided that I renew it for another year, which is pending something else that I'm stressed out about. But pending, I renew my lease for another year. That's when it would be up. That's on October 15th. Next year. Yeah. And so I live in a two bedroom apartment.

[00:08:47] I would, I would, I share a living space. Um, and I, I guess I have like rules. One of the rules is like, I don't end my life in a shared living space or while I'm still part of some sort of agreement. I want to make things as easy as possible for those still living. I mean, I'm not trying to leave a big mess or like a lot of inconveniences.

[00:09:16] So let me just dive in with a big question that might not be easy to answer. And there's apparently something I'm not supposed to ask, but I do it all the time. Why might you on your life? It's, it is kind of a complex question. Um, but I can answer it is like, why continue my life? I don't feel I have a, you know, I like to turn the question in my head.

[00:09:37] I don't feel like I have a, that compelling of a will to live until I die a natural death or, or just somehow by accident. Do you think you were born? I don't want to use any words that are sort of in the DSMV though. They might apply, right? Like, do you think you were born as somebody who would be contemplating suicide in their early twenties? Like, was that faded almost? I really, I mean, there is on some level, I truly don't know.

[00:10:06] I'm inclined to say no, because I think that it is a much more of a complex sort of thought or decision that those tend to be influenced by the environment, the circumstance. So can we talk about environment and circumstance? What is it about your, what was it or, and, or is it about the circumstances that you think might have led to where you're at?

[00:10:30] I think that a sense of loneliness or of isolation has affected me in, in various times in my life. And I know that I did experience that as a child, probably from a very young age. And in my case, like, I think it's, it's in particular with like peers. Um, I did have, like, I do have generally a very supportive and like, they've been very supportive parents.

[00:10:59] I get along well and grew up close with a sibling, younger sibling, but really the connections that I had or might've had to my peers were lacking as a kid. So that maybe like in kind of chronological order, um, I think that affected me and, and maybe not totally for the worst. Right. Like there's probably some like weird causes sort of like not totally negative thing to result from that. I don't know. Right.

[00:11:28] I was able to make really good friends in college. Like, I don't think necessarily that, that period in, in my childhood up until I, I basically no longer lived with my immediate family necessarily like, you know, negatively impacted my ability to, to try and connect with people now. Maybe it did mark me with like sort of this deeper sense of loneliness. I wonder about that. That's another kind of like, uh, I don't know.

[00:11:56] But as far as like major traumas or like really unfortunate or tragic events in my life, I can't really say that I have experienced those personally. I never felt that my life was truly endangered or that my parents or my brother or, you know, anyone that, that I was like depending on, or I felt was depending on me.

[00:12:23] Like I didn't, I've never experienced like, like feeling like their lives were endangered. Right. That can constitute trauma. So, but you said 2021 was hard and you were in college then. And that was, you were talking about, you had friends. Yeah. You felt decent about 2021 was the first time and, uh, that you were really contemplating. Is that right? The first time? No. The first time, and I have trouble placing this in time.

[00:12:51] Uh, sometimes I question whether it's a real memory, but like if I'm going to just take my memory as like, it's worried because right. I never communicated this to anyone when I was, I would say, uh, sometime between ages eight and 10. That's way before 2021. And, and I don't know that I was quite aware, like, like even about myself that I was like thinking that, but I have this memory. I think it was related to something that I read.

[00:13:17] I have this memory of, of thinking about going outside in the backyard of my, my family's home where there were a lot of like blocks of cement, like a patio that had been broken up. There were, they were like stackable and thinking about whether I could put them on my chest.

[00:13:38] I think it was related maybe to like a story that I had been reading at the time in which someone does at least try to end their life by putting stones on top. Like they, they actually, they lay in like some kind of water and then put stones on their chest. So I ate 10 year old Talia did not do that. I don't know how you'd have gotten the damn things up anyway. You probably weren't strong enough. I would imagine. I don't, I don't think it would have worked.

[00:14:07] Not really the point though. The point was you were thinking about it. And from that age till college, you, was it a, an on and off ideating thing or. Apart from that, um, until 2021, I can't remember of a time when I thought about like methods to end my own life. Like I wasn't necessarily thinking that thing, but I do remember distinctly.

[00:14:31] I was at 14 and this is big because it's so connected to, to now the truth about why I, I now like work in research science. And what's led me to this now is that when I was 14, I'd say that that was when I had kind of the first big scientific question that I, that I can remember. And that was whether anyone at that point had at least theorized about there being some sort of biological or biochemical basis for the will to live.

[00:14:59] It's a normal 14 year old thought. I don't think I admitted this to myself at that point, but, but I think that I suspected on some level that my own will to live was kind of fucked at that point. Hmm. Well, already. Is it not true that arguably, certainly the will to live is innate? Like we're born with it. It's really hard to kill yourself.

[00:15:24] And I have to believe that part of that, and this also has a lot to do, I'm sure with where a whole lot of shaming and judgment comes into is it's just feels not natural. And I think part of that is because it's fucking hard to get born. It feels like you're kind of supposed to live. Yeah.

[00:15:45] It feels like everything, but like something at our very core is exists to perpetuate our existence, the existence of, of our genes and, and their passage and our like survival. Right. I think it was really coming from like a recognition that you don't necessarily always want to live because if there exists a will to live, then there also exists the, the absence of it. Right. It sounds like you're doing two things.

[00:16:14] And when you were that age, like there's more like existential philosophical questions, but they're also personal. Yes. When I was 14, I was like, I want to learn about the brain. That's what I would say. I was like, I want to learn about neuroscience. I want to learn about, you know, the connection between mind and brain. Where do like emotions and like thoughts come from? I would not have said the more specific truth, which was I wanted to find out about the will to live.

[00:16:39] And I think it's like on some level I knew, like, I must avoid saying that unless I want to be put in an uncomfortable conversation. Or an uncomfortable facility. Yeah. And we learned that shit real fast, right? Come on. So from 14 on, do you have those conversations with anybody or does it ever take a turn where it's dangerous for you, where you're thinking about ending your life? No. In high school, I suppressed and escaped.

[00:17:09] Yeah. I run. I still run. But I started running competitively in high school and continued in college. And I did that every day. So that kind of like called me down at the end of each day or whatever. Yeah. And then I was like, well, I if I want to do like science research, like that's kind of a competitive field. You have to study a lot. So in high school, I was like, I'm going to focus on that.

[00:17:35] And I had the ability to write like my I didn't have to work in high school. I didn't have to take care of a younger sibling. You know, my parents like laid it out real well for me and my brother in terms of that. It was like, OK, we could have anything we need to study and, you know, do some extracurriculars in school. So you're a runner, high school and college. What happened to 2021? So I was taking classes and they were like hybrid classes.

[00:18:03] But largely, largely on Zoom, I was so overwhelmed. Like that point, what really pushed me to like think about ending my life at that point was that I was like very overwhelmed. Mostly like due to schoolwork. I made things that way for myself. Oh, sure. OK. I'm the one that registered for all those classes. I wasn't taking them because the counselor had told me like, you need to take all these now or you're not going to graduate. No.

[00:18:30] I was like, wow, I just I really just did it to myself. Yeah. And I just I couldn't keep up. Basically, that's my that was in my like later two years of college. And I don't know the demands of the coursework really ramped up. What happened on the run? It kind of almost like felt natural in a way. Like I at that point, I was like, I am being so useless right now. Like my family is supporting me so that I can be here and study.

[00:18:57] And there are people at the university who are doing their jobs to, you know, try to support students like me. Not saying they were perfect, but like they're doing something to to support like students like me. And I am doing so shit. I'm not learning. I'm not taking advantage of the opportunities that are available to me.

[00:19:21] And so I just felt very like worthless or like just a sense of worthlessness was very like clear. And then it was just like I knew sort of for a degree like those that time is finite. It's like a temporary thing to go and get a degree. Right. Like when you're when you're studying, you're kind of expected to take advantage of opportunities as you see fit, but also kind of as they they come.

[00:19:48] It's like it is you're living a fast paced life when you're when you're studying a lot of the time, especially as an adult. Yeah. And I just felt like I was just squandering what was available to me. This is happening on the run. Yes. And I also had sort of similar thought processes like at other times. Sure, sure. Probably you ran a similar route often. But like if I were to ask you, where were you? Would you be able to tell me like, oh, yeah, I was on 10th and Clark or whatever the. Yeah.

[00:20:17] I remember the general area. I think I was running towards Lake Michigan. I do remember thinking about like, you know, how would I end my life if I decided to, you know, in the in the new future? I wasn't necessarily thinking about doing it like exactly at that moment. I have had those thoughts like sometimes when I'm running now, I'll just be like, how would I kill myself? Like right now, I just right the fuck now.

[00:20:42] But on this run, I did sort of occur to me like I could jump in the lake in winter, die of drowning or hypothermia. But then I'd be like, you know, I chucked that one out because I was like, no, but then like people would be looking for my body. And then, you know, in the winter to like, man, there'd be like people risking their lives like to go out on this lake and like look for my body. Like, no, like that. I'm not worth that bother. Come on now. No, there's got to be like a smoother way to do this.

[00:21:13] Okay. All right. Well, how close in college did you come to potentially ending your life? No, not very close. Yeah. What's telling about, you know, how close or like how not close I came to to actually ending my life in college is that I was actually working in a research lab at the time. Like organic chemistry where I had access to all sorts of toxic chemicals, right? As I do now, right?

[00:21:39] All sorts of poisons in there and needles and syringes. I can't ever remember during that time having thoughts related to harming myself with lab implements. Whereas, you know, like in the past two years, definitely not not necessarily like about doing it at work. Occasionally, occasionally there are times where I'm like, oh man, that would be so dramatic.

[00:22:04] I mean, I've even thought like, wow, it would be it would be really something to just like throw myself down like stairs. But that's kind of it's like fleeting that I don't even consider it intrusive. I don't think those thoughts really are the thing that that just distresses me. Wondering what changed with respect to you were suicidal in college, you had access to this stuff, you're suicidal now and you have access to this stuff. And now you look at it differently. Yeah.

[00:22:30] Well, in college and like I was aware of this, like I had this like specific goal to complete. And that was like getting the degree and I was not self-sufficient. I was depending to some extent on my family. And now I'm not. I haven't been for like a couple of years.

[00:22:51] So that's the difference really is like I was not okay with, I guess, ending my life because it would be like it's a rejection, like a refutation of the support that my family was very willingly giving me. That's why I was kind of not okay with it. And then I was also like, well, you know, I was an adult, but in college, you're not like fully an adult.

[00:23:15] And I'm like, okay, I don't truly have like the capacity at the moment to like make decisions for myself, or at least I'm like putting that on hold. It's like I can finish this degree. I'll finish the degree. It'll also make my family happy. Do you think you were like, I don't even, I don't think I've ever asked this question. Like you, you think you were almost like exploring the idea to see what you could handle almost. Like, can I handle the idea of that? And then if the answer is I didn't do it, but I can handle it.

[00:23:43] So then, then it kind of gained strength. Yeah. And then here we are now. And I, yeah. And I figured out, I guess I can be functional while thinking about how I might end my life in, in very like real, like practical terms every day. I am so intrigued. I'm so curious about how many people are in that space living their lives. And I don't need them to be necessarily working, but let's just say they're working a job and they're maybe have a league. They are a part of what, whatever their lives look like.

[00:24:13] And they are thinking about it. Some of them might be planning. Some of them might be very specific about that, you know? And no one could be the wiser. Probably not. It's really no one. Except for me. I know. No, no, no. So you get out of college. Do you go back to Cali? Yes. I got a job here and that's what kind of allowed me or compelled me to move. Yeah. Does anybody in California who was from California say Cali like I did? Yeah, I think some do.

[00:24:40] But I think it does have kind of an association with people who didn't grow up in California. Yeah, I didn't grow up in California. So you're back there and you finished school a couple years ago. You're working. But it's been a year and a half ago you found this podcast. I'm like, I wonder if I found it a little bit earlier. But I don't know. I remember most clearly. And at what point do you – so yeah, I mean, give me a pretty clear idea of what was going on at that point in college.

[00:25:07] The last six months of college were really, really great. Right? My course load was not nearly as overwhelming. The last six months were just basically that's the last quarter, the last two quarters. I was with the friends who I had made since day one basically. Because I feel like that's one of the perks of doing sports. I was on a sports team and we all became very close.

[00:25:35] And then I graduated and went back to California. Spent some time with my family before I moved. My family lives in Central California. But I'm in Southern California now. So several hours drive. I had to move and start work. No one from my cohort of friends, a group of friends who I went to college with moved even to California at the time that I did.

[00:26:03] They all either stayed in the Midwest or moved to New York, Connecticut, New Jersey area. And so that was very much like sudden loneliness. I feel like there were things I didn't quite foresee about that. And I feel sort of silly for not thinking about it. I mean, I knew that I was going to be apart from these really good friends. And I had a partner who I met also at school. So I knew I was going to be apart from him.

[00:26:31] And just thinking about that was sad. But then I didn't think as much about like, oh, I'm not going to be a part of a school community anymore. I made the mistake of thinking like, oh, yeah, we're just going to kind of sub in for that. Have you heard like the of like the third place where like the first place is like your home? The second place is your workplace or your school. And then there's like a third place that's like where you go to hang out or something.

[00:26:58] My third place is my kitchen, which is the first place, too. Oh, and the second place. Second and third place is your kitchen table. You got to reassess your life. For you, you lost the third place. The second and third place because school really was the second and third place. Yeah. I moved out here and like work is like people are decent.

[00:27:23] Like there's not like weird drama and like really bad toxicity in my workplace. But it's not. I don't know. People aren't like super social there. It just it just can't really satisfy. You work at a research lab, right? Yes. I don't know much about research labs, Talia, but social is not the first thing I think about. Yeah, you've got a point. So you've been doing the same job since you got there? Yes.

[00:27:51] The ideations or the ideas. I don't know if they're necessarily ramping up. They're not going away. It was strange at that point until like September 2022. So from like March to September 2022, I didn't ideate that much. Okay. Like it kind of it definitely was not as high as kind of like earlier, like the earliest part of 2022 and like winter of 2021. Okay.

[00:28:17] I had sort of brief periods, like maybe like a day or two at a time when I actually felt like really depressed. I can't remember one time like kind of getting suicidal during one of those periods. But until like September 2022, I didn't start ideating as frequently as I do now every week and then every day. About two years ago. Yeah. Was there like a spark? Do you have any idea? Was it just just happened to me? I do think I got more depressed.

[00:28:46] Like I think I remember someday in September where I just felt so fatigued for not a particular reason. And that kind of like continued through the end of 2022. And I lost my appetite for months. I don't know. I was still going to work. Before I ask you about the last two years, and I'm really curious about them as well as sort of now, given what you shared earlier. A few other questions. How many people know that we're talking? One.

[00:29:14] I just, I told my therapist, I told him that I would be on this podcast. Like I mentioned this podcast specifically. Okay. What did he say? I'm always curious. Well, I talked to him just yesterday actually. And that was like, he was just in general support. He was like, oh, this sounds cool. Like he had never heard of it actually. Right. Most people haven't. That would be interesting if he had heard of the podcast, right? Like he has multiple like suicidal patients, I think.

[00:29:42] He asked sort of, I guess, preemptively whether he might be able to listen. Well, I always think if I were a therapist and my client is a patient, whatever, said that, I'd be like, who the fuck is this person? You're just going to talk about this shit? He was curious about you.

[00:30:00] I have kind of a question and it's related to the fact that I can't really recall whether I've listened to another episode in which you and or the guest talk about how the podcast might be perceived in relation to other suicide related like mental health resources. Mm-hmm. So would you elaborate on that a bit more?

[00:30:26] Have you had an experience like talking to someone involved in like the sort of mental health and wellness space has expressed like a negative view of like, have you had dealt with pushback? Yeah, not a ton. So I don't have a lot of examples. There have been a handful of people who were part of organizations. NAMI, North Carolina comes to mind where they seem very on board with what I was doing and the way I was doing it.

[00:30:49] I've had conversations, both guests and people just like message me or email me thinking, you know, in that space said positive things. There's been a little bit of pushback.

[00:30:59] If you've heard the podcast, which you have, clearly I have very strong feelings about a lot of mental health facilities and I have very strong feelings about how people in general, whether they're in that space, that world or not, engage with people, whether it's around suicide or other things that are difficult or charged or higher stakes. I genuinely think most people are fucking terrible at it. And I think it's a massive problem that doesn't get discussed very often.

[00:31:28] And I don't know why. It's astounding. People don't like to talk about bad things or things that they think are bad unless it's attacking them to make themselves feel better. But what we do is we, and this is just like the narratives or the messages I see. It's almost always towards the person who might want to talk about, let's call their pain or their struggle or their experiences. This is italicized. Just talk about it. You've definitely heard that, right? Just talk about it.

[00:31:55] Are we ever talking about the other side, the person who's engaging with them and how they talk about it or with them? Much less so. I appreciate very much the idea of just talk about it because, of course, there's other things that are involved. I don't think they're suggesting you should just go like get a loudspeaker and necessarily stand on the corner. There's an assumption that you're talking about it with someone who cares or is qualified or who gives a shit.

[00:32:22] Spaces that are quote unquote safe, even though most of them are absolutely not safe. Maybe I just need to look a little bit more closely at that. If there's an own assumption that people who are on the other end of hearing someone quote just talk about it know what the hell to do with that, you're mistaken. Almost immeasurably great amount of conversations that happen day to day, I am not privy to. I don't hear. Right now, there are millions of conversations going on in the world. I'm just involved in one. So, of course, I don't know. So, I'm limited by shit I see online or my own personal anecdotal experience.

[00:32:53] But I do hear, and obviously, audio and podcasting is my main thing. A lot of people, when they're talking with people about this stuff, and this obviously is much beyond suicide. It could be anything that's hard or difficult. They're just not good at it. That's my take. And I have strong feelings about it. Other people would say, no, there's a lot of ways to do it. My way isn't the only way. And I have a lot to learn. And I have to get a lot better, for sure.

[00:33:16] And I think that not having conversations like that, as often as you might, is also sort of damaging itself. I've found it very, very difficult to talk to people, even when they seem receptive. And part of it, it's like I wonder about it, that it's just like I can't get the words out. And I'm like, I think it's just like force of habit from saying, like, I'm fine.

[00:33:42] And then if you struggle to get it out when you kind of have the opportunity to and you can't do it, like, that's even – that's another hit. Like, it's just like I can't – even with the opportunity. Because you don't find the words or you just don't trust? Yeah, a combination. You get messages early and they're mixed. Like I just said, just talk about it. See what happens when you tell your therapist you're seriously trying to kill yourself. And I'm not saying they're doing anything wrong. I'm not saying there shouldn't be things in place to get immediate care. I'm not suggesting that at all.

[00:34:11] But where the fuck do people go to talk about it without those types of potential things? Because you cannot tell me that you can have an honest conversation about this stuff, knowing that someone will pick up a phone and call a fucking ambulance. Because then you think about, like, it's not just them. All right, I can talk about all of it. But I just won't say that I'm thinking about doing it this week. It bleeds into other shit too. And you just close up more. To your therapist.

[00:34:36] Let's not even talk about friends and family who have histories and their own stuff and guilt maybe or this or that. I'm not blaming. I'm not pointing fingers. It's beyond just like not having a skill set. I mean, I imagine a large majority love people and their life and they're well-intentioned. It just doesn't fucking work. Anyway, if it worked, maybe I wouldn't have a podcast. Well, I think that it's demonstrative of something that I think is missing a lot of the time in conversations about suicide or about, like, with suicidal people.

[00:35:06] And that's this, like, focus or concept on, like, self-determination. Because when all the conversations are just focused on, like, what's priority number one? Priority number one is, like, suicide prevention. Just keep the person alive. Right. That's missing a huge part of, like, an elephant in the room is, like, the person. Like, their life itself. I saw some documentary. I don't know how I found it. And I think it was in Quebec. And they actually have a line. Maybe it's called A Warm Line. I don't know.

[00:35:34] Where you can actually talk about this stuff 100%. And they do not call the authorities. I was like, that's really cool. I don't know if it still exists. I don't know how it was funded. I don't know any of that stuff. Part of it is, like, I think the perception of culpability being complicit and how that works into, like, the medical profession and, like, mental health care. We certainly have a default thing where we look for blame. You see it all the time.

[00:36:02] And right, even if there's the tiniest sliver of possibility that someone's non-action is deemed complicit, they deem it complicit. Then you're basically saying you cannot have these conversations. It's kind of black and white to me. And then that does so much more damage.

[00:36:18] Like, the irony, and this comes up all the time in the podcast, is that without being able to prove it or, like, measure it, which is a problem, not being able to talk about it and the way it is now kills by suicide way more people than the prevention model is preventing. I don't know for sure. I believe that rather strongly. It's this, like, condescending attitude that comes out in conversations that are just focused on suicide prevention. Right.

[00:36:47] And it's condescending because it makes assumptions, like, it makes assumptions about people who are suicidal as, like, they're totally unreasonable. They're wrong because of what they're thinking. They're completely hopeless and that's bad. It makes them irrational.

[00:37:03] I would say that self-determination could be a more nuanced approach to suicide prevention, but also maybe to some improvement in mental health. I'm talking about, like, conversations, interactions between suicidal people and someone in mental health care, peer counselor, but, you know, to some extent also applying to just kind of, like, conversations among mutual friends or whatever.

[00:37:32] And that's because self-determination means, like, or a right to self-determination means that people have the right, like, it's part of their freedoms of just existing to determine, in as much as they can, choices they make for themselves. You know, obviously, like, people, adults can't, like, rightly or justly really make decisions about other adults' lives.

[00:38:01] But, like, self-determination is, like, if you choose to die, choose to do so in a way that it, right, doesn't impinge on anyone else's choice in that matter. What is wrong about that? There's nothing wrong about that. That is valid. And if you choose to live, as long as it doesn't impinge on anyone else's choice in the matter, there is nothing wrong about that. I would actually argue there's, it's kind of neither here nor there. It just is.

[00:38:26] But, like, keeping that in mind or keeping that as the focus is, like, one of the drivers of conversations about suicide, I think, is particularly valuable. Because if someone, you know, they have the ability to choose for themselves, they could choose life just as much as they could choose death. And it's important for them to realize that other people aren't going to choose life for them forcibly. That it's them who can choose life.

[00:38:55] You know, like, I think it's important to keep that autonomy and not infringe upon it. Because infringing upon it, then, you know, I could see how that can, like, drive people to be more suicidal and be like, you know what? If you're forcing me to live, that just makes me want to annihilate that even more. Because that's a choice that I'm making for myself. I think I've found a few written things that I've related to a lot.

[00:39:25] One of them is the writing of Albert Camus. There's a book called The Myth of Sisyphus. It's not very long. But the first sentence of this book is, there is but one truly serious philosophical problem, and that is suicide. And in the beginning of this book, there is a section where he talks about the origin or kind of like the start of consciousness.

[00:39:49] And specifically, this is like consciousness of or awareness of the tragedy of life, kind of. Or it's rather that the consciousness itself is a tragedy. The realization that a lot of the things we do every single day are kind of meaningless and futile, even though they do take effort. And in some cases, or kind of over time, become rather weary and are part of suffering.

[00:40:19] And that this is just the suffering of existence. But yeah, as it relates to me, I guess I graduated from college. I have had a job in a field of my choosing, right? Using what I learned in college. Like, great. I am kind of proud of that. And there are things that I find joy in and satisfaction in life.

[00:40:41] Being an adult, being self-sufficient, like it's been in the last two years that have really been the first time I've been faced with the fact that I have a responsibility over my own life. And I have the most autonomy and agency I've ever had. And I realize, like, I'm not religious, right? I don't have, I actually, I believe that suicide is a right, even though it's not upheld in practically any nation on earth. But I believe that is as much of a right as life itself is.

[00:41:10] I don't think I want to do it. I don't think I want to do life. And that's my choice. Whether, I would actually, if Camus and like a few other like philosophers from sort of similar time were alive, I would want to ask them whether they think, like what they think about mental illness. Like, what is it? Because they're like pessimist philosophers. And it's like, I don't know, I could picture a lot of like people psychoanalyzing them and through their work and being like, oh, this person was so depressed.

[00:41:40] Because Camus ends up right in this book basically making an argument against suicide. No, he ends up being like, it's actually, it's not as defensible as, you know, a course of action. Even though he's like, you know, life is pointless and absurd. Would they consider it pathological, the inability to find some level of joy in life? If that threshold exists, where is it for them?

[00:42:07] For these like absurdists, for the pessimists? Like, do I have like less of a capacity for joy? I don't know. Is it like somehow pathological that I'm like, you know what, I don't really think I want to spend a bunch more time figuring out how I go and live or how to like let myself live. I think that if I stuck around, yes, there could be so many positives.

[00:42:31] Like, I'm like, I can't even be aware of all of the things that, right, could happen. But I just don't feel like I want to even figure things out to continue. Like, yeah, it's like, I think I've heard other people say something kind of to this effect.

[00:42:49] But it's like this feeling of like, even if you like recognize that there is like, you know, a solution to like something that you deem a problem or like something that you're striving to. Even if you see that like, you know, there is an alternate path, you can lack the drive and desire to even take it. Uh-huh. To even try.

[00:43:15] And that's kind of how I feel about life, right? But the fact is life is going to continue with or without me, right? Like it's part of this is kind of like this existential loneliness, right? This awareness of like our individuality as humans, as like sort of separate units of the same species. But also, right, our awareness of like that we can have some sort of connection with other people. But that connection can never be like total.

[00:43:44] Like we're always aware that there's some sort of like distance. But you know, like some people would say like, if you're on the fence, why not just live? You've got so much to live for. Because there's things that I like need to figure out to do that. Like I am not absolved of all these responsibilities that if I don't fulfill them, someone else is going to fucking pay. Someone else is going to hurt. Someone else is going to feel it. I'm not in a bubble. Well, what responsibilities? I'm curious. And by the way, I wasn't suggesting like when I said you've got all this to live for.

[00:44:12] I mean, I'm telling you what people might say. I'm that's not really my role. But I want to get a better context or understanding of your life. What do you mean these responsibilities? I do want to be self-sufficient. I believe I am capable of doing it. So as long as I'm capable of it, I believe that I shouldn't. And I wouldn't want to be another way. I wouldn't want to not be self-sufficient.

[00:44:38] And to do that, like right now, it's like, okay, I need to have my own income. I need to present like all these sorts of ways to get access to like the basic things that I need and then kind of more. I didn't answer the question fully. Are you not sharing something really big? No, I don't think there's like a statement that I feel like I'm biting my tongue on. Okay.

[00:45:07] It's like maybe if I had like studied philosophy in school, then I would have like so much better language. Like maybe I would have been able to communicate this so much earlier. I don't know. If I change the color of the cyanide pill to pink and purple and I gave it to you, do you know the pink and purple pill question? Yes. So like it guarantees it's going to work and you don't feel any pain and nobody knows it's a suicide, which is a big part of it. And I gave that to you somehow right now. What would you do with it?

[00:45:37] Right now I would save it. And you'd put in black magic marker October 15th, 2025 somehow on it? Yeah, probably. Yeah, I would keep it. I would keep it close. I wouldn't get rid of it. And I would, I mean, I think I would basically just use it as a replacement for whatever method I was using in the first place. It wouldn't change anything else. So I often ask people like, what's it like to be alive after you've tried? Well, you haven't tried.

[00:46:04] What is it like to be alive right now knowing in a year you might be dead? It's weird. It was not that long ago that I was like, you know, okay, I'm giving myself a year. It was not that long ago that I kind of like, I sort of locked that in my head. I don't know. It will be interesting to see, I think, how things go. Like really, because the clock sort of for that year hasn't quite started running down. It's pretty damn soon. Yeah, yeah.

[00:46:33] But like, I'll see another October 3rd. But you know, it'll be interesting to think about like, I'm not going to see another Christmas or I'm not going to see like, I guess, I don't know, the next, you know, set of birthdays of people who I love. Maybe I'm not going to see another set of those. I have had thoughts like, maybe I'll actually live several more years.

[00:46:59] And each year will be like, you know, come to some time in the year and kind of ask myself another year. I don't know exactly how I feel about that. I think that there are definitely cons to living like that. Because especially now that I've kind of put a time on it, that makes me less likely to like commit to relationships that I have, basically. That's like lonely.

[00:47:25] Like it does feel kind of negative to be like, well, I might very much enjoy being with another person. I have a partner who lives in Atlanta. He's studying, like doing a master's degree. I think if he asked me now and like expressed interest in like trying to make it so that we live in the same place, he might move in like a year or less. I would resist that. But I don't think I can do that. I don't think I don't think it would be fair. Does he know about all the stuff you're dealing with?

[00:47:55] Not all. I have told him that I have felt suicidal. And we've talked about like life kind of in a philosophical way. Yeah. There's just definitely points where I'm like, okay, we don't. We're different, fundamentally different. That hasn't made me like think that I'm incompatible with this person. Like I don't know. We have actually lived together in the past. That has gone quite well, actually.

[00:48:23] But it's like somewhat difficult. Like it will make me sad. I have a friend who I've like talked to about like my sociodality as well. And that friend asked me like whether I would like break up with my partner prior to killing myself. Like kind of asking me like, what are you going to do? I don't think I could do that because I'd have to do it so dishonestly. Like I'd have to say something like, I don't think we're like cut out for each other or something. Like, I don't know.

[00:48:49] I just don't like the idea of lying and not actually saying, well, no, because it's because I'm going to end my life. And I don't want you to, you know, feel like you're part of something that's got an expectation, basically. But also I don't think I don't think I could really tell him like ahead of time that I was going to end my life. So chances are when this comes out, he's not hearing you. Probably not. Yeah. I don't know. That's something else that I'll have to think about. Yeah. I mean, you know, who knows?

[00:49:16] Because I did actually, I mentioned it to a friend that I've talked to. I told this friend like a little bit that or at least just that I felt suicidal. I like mentioned the podcast. I don't know if he would listen. Yeah. I think like if I just go one more year and that's the last year, there'll be times, right? Like kind of special occasions, holidays, whatever, where, yeah, it'll be kind of, it'll be like a lonely ceremony.

[00:49:42] Like I'll be the only one maybe like thinking like this is the last, last X, Y, Z. No one else really knows. And, you know, I don't have a terminal illness. I'm not super old. So, you know, right? Like it wouldn't necessarily occur to people. You don't have a terminal illness, but we are all terminal. Yes. But right. You're actively ending your life in a sort of non, it's not quote natural. Yes. And you are in your twenties.

[00:50:11] You know, the, one of the largest groups that end their lives are like 75 and older. So we might look at that a little differently, right? They've sort of lived a pretty full life. But what is a full life? I think I prefer the term living fully, like the more present term. I don't know. There are plenty of people who die in their eighties and seventies who die with a ton of regrets. I guess people just, in my experience, tend to lean on. It's just like, all right, this is the sort of average age when people die.

[00:50:41] So hopefully you get at least there. And that's like at a minimum what's expected. Hopefully you make the best of it. And anybody who's choosing to end their life before that is somehow, I don't know, you know, we, we, we know how people tend to think about that. Yeah. It's just living while wanting to die maybe on a shorter time scale than a lot of my peers or even just a lot of other people. Like part of me like really wants people to know.

[00:51:07] Part of me just really wants like people to know and not necessarily to understand, but to like actually just try to find some way to accept it because that exists for like, say people with terminal illness who like choose kind of like assisted suicide. Plenty of people like in their family, their friends come to be like, okay, this is a choice that this person can make. They're making it because they don't want to prolong their suffering.

[00:51:31] Even if it means they could, you know, continue interacting in some way with other people in their life. Why only for people with terminal illness like that? Just because it's more digestible that someone would choose say like assisted suicide over like dying, like naturally or just whatever disease they're suffering from. Like why is that a more valid reason to choose death than what I'm thinking?

[00:51:59] How many people know or have a sense of how close you have come or where your mind is with respect to suicide? One friend of mine who lives in the area, he alone, like other than my therapist knows about the means that I would use and my access. Do you have the means that you mentioned earlier in your home? No, I did for a while.

[00:52:28] And then I was like, yeah, I ended up not keeping them around because I was actually in the process of trying to get a different therapist because this one that I'm seeing now had a very busy schedule at the beginning of this year. Like I like saw him once and then it was like three months before I could see him again. Wow. And I was like, I don't know about this dude. Like, it sounds like he has a lot going on right now. So I was like looking around for other people because I was like, I want to talk about it.

[00:52:57] Seems like what might be the best option is someone who kind of gets paid to listen to this shit. Anyway, I started looking for a therapist and I ended up seeing this like licensed family marriage counselor, therapist or whatever. Someone without, like she didn't have a PhD. So the therapist I'm seeing now does have a PhD. This one didn't have a PhD. I've seen other people who don't have a PhD. Like it's sort of just interesting. I don't know. I think both can be effective at their jobs, but there are differences. Go and see her.

[00:53:25] And I, and I talked to her and I actually tell her about the cyanide. And then basically she requested that I agree to not keep it in my home. Or she let me know that I would not be leaving in my own car. So you got rid of it? Yeah. Or you told her you did? Yeah. I was like, I was close to just kind of telling her that I did because I was like, she just, this is like the first appointment. Like how does she, she doesn't know me at all.

[00:53:53] So when you tell me that you got rid of it and I don't care either way, you might still have. I have access to it, but it is not in my home. It is not in fact in my home. But you have access to it. Okay. Yes. Did the therapist you're seeing now or anybody else that you've seen ever give you a diagnosis that you think is accurate? It is sort of in part, just the only diagnosis that I have is major depressive disorder. I actually disagree with the major because major I feel like is the stuff of like breakdowns.

[00:54:23] Like people actually have trouble functioning, like doing basic things. And that's like, they don't do that or like something goes wrong when they try to do that. Right. Uh-huh. And that doesn't necessarily happen for me. Like it might not feel good. Like it doesn't feel good really to like be sort of functioning the way that I am, but I'm doing it. That's why I disagree with it.

[00:54:47] But it's fascinating really because you're, I guess by most people's metrics, functional. Right. So we won't call it major depressive. Let's call it minor depressive. I think that that should legit be a diagnosis, but I think it, but it's not worded that way. I think in the DSM, it's actually dysthymia. Let's just say you present both here and in your words about your life as somebody who. That's screaming like imminent risk, imminent risk. But do you think you're imminent risk?

[00:55:16] If you would define imminent as in a year from now, then yes. But what happened between this conversation and about a year from now? Like what would have to happen if anything that would, you might not take that pill? Like big things that are kind of like unlikely, but it's like, okay, a family member somehow gets into a situation where they're dependent on me. That would keep me around.

[00:55:42] Or, or, you know, what, one of my family members or close friends develops terminal illness. Like I wouldn't want to die before they did. Maybe I could just get so interested and so absorbed in some line of work or project. So as if like, literally, if we fast forward it one year and your life is exactly the same, you think you're going to take the pill? Yes. And then what do you think might happen? I don't know.

[00:56:10] It's, it's not a comforting thought to think when I'm feeling like my worst and I'm just like, death is just the end of it all. Like death is nothing. Right. Yeah. It would be, I suppose for most people more pleasant to think that they'd be going to some place with clowns and clouds and unicorns and rainbows. Sure. Clowns. Not clowns. Maybe that was a bad. By the way, I haven't figured out your memoir title yet. And I actually spoke with someone earlier today and I struggled with his as well. So I think it's just an off day for me for memoir titles.

[00:56:38] But it's interesting because I'm so good at the memoir titles, Talia, that I did message him. I'm like, I got it. It just took me a few hours after we talked. But do you have a memoir title? I know we're never writing the book. No, I don't have a title. I don't know. I've never, I haven't really thought about writing a memoir. I've enjoyed other people's memoirs, but like. You don't need to write it. Come up with a title. Yeah. Do you know how this works? Kind of. Were you going to throw out an idea for the memoir? No, I was kind of an idea.

[00:57:06] I feel like I'd want to do like a nod to another already published title. It's because, you know, like I'm not that original, you know, but it can still be fun if it's not original. Right. Any myths or misconceptions? That's a question you've probably heard me ask about. Well, anything really around any of this stuff. As far as like myths or misconceptions I want to like address in some way, suicide is an option.

[00:57:32] Like, have you heard just like the statement, like suicide is not an option? Oh yeah. Like directed at suicidal people. It's so absurd. And main reason why I think it's so absurd. It's so insulting. It totally is an option. I realize what you're saying is you don't want me to do it. So maybe we're like, it's a semantical thing. Suicide is an option to say. It's not an option. It's like saying it's like weird. Yeah.

[00:58:01] Like it's like you really think that's going to prevent someone from saying that? Like, no, no, of course it's not. Right. You think like it's like related. I feel like a bit to like going about sex education as abstinence only. Yeah. Yeah. I think those messages probably are more likely aimed towards younger people. And so there might be some value. I mean, I don't know about the abstinence as much as like the suicide is not an option. Okay. And that might do some good. But generally speaking, it doesn't make much sense. Yeah.

[00:58:31] In particular, the problematic part when it's directed in an adult, it's also insulting because if you say that like suicide is not an option, you're also expressing that you as like this person who is talking to another person who's suicidal, you're not going to be there for them if they're thinking about suicide. Like they're not going to like, you're not going to entertain this possibility.

[00:58:55] Whereas I think a much more helpful, supportive way of doing this without necessarily encouraging suicide, without being what someone would consider complicit or at fault here would be to acknowledge a desire for death or acknowledge whatever might be driving the person to think about suicide. In my case, my current therapist, when I've expressed to him that I want to die, I want to end my life.

[00:59:24] At some point, a few months ago, he was just like, you know, because I think I also, you know, expressed like conflicting feelings about like, ah, this is definitely going to, you know, negatively impact people I know in my family. Yeah. Like you should make a will. He was like, make, you know, if you're going to do it, at least make this a little bit less inconvenient. He told me that he has like a document spreadsheet where he has account information.

[00:59:48] And that he has given, you know, a friend access to it or whatever, or like instructed this friend is like, okay, should anything happen to me? You are to give my family partner access to this. And that was good. Like that's in some way the opposite of saying suicide is not an option. Right. Another thing is, is the therapist or the clinician who is seeing someone who is actually going

[01:00:15] through like really bad, like physical pain or, or like just has a ton of like grief and trauma that makes their, their daily life like really hard to live. And, and that clinician, you know, expressing that person, you know, if, if this doesn't go away in whatever timeframe or whatever, if this doesn't change in whatever timeframe, I will, I will still help you in trying and make a decision about your life or like, right.

[01:00:42] Like to support them in their own sort of self-determination or self-actualization. I wonder how many therapists out there, and there's a lot offer that to their clients. And I also know it comes with some risk for them. And I, and I, and I think about what happens when someone in that position is saying, I am acknowledging how you feel or honoring your choice. I'm sure they're going in their own way.

[01:01:11] They're a therapist in this case to try to help you work through that. And you don't do it. But I wonder if just those types of words or actions, ironically helps prevent suicide. I think it does. Because you're saying to someone, I get how you feel. It's okay. It's okay. You can ultimately do what you want to do. I think that really changes things a lot. Yeah. I think it's just, it's tough to like study that like in an academic or like research sense.

[01:01:41] And like, I think it's like the, the numbers, the statistics, the studies, like, I don't know, but I, but I do think it would be so helpful to humanity to have access. To resources, spaces that help in, in dying, like the process of dying. Like that's one of the things about suicide that is to this day, really lonely and like really difficult that there's not really those things. Right.

[01:02:10] That's kind of goes back to like, I don't know. Like part of me really wants people to know about it. And it's like, I wish that there was a way to like, just do it a lot more like peaceful. Yeah. If, if you are interested in someone's life and you're interested in that person, you can have a conversation about a lot of different things. And if one of those things is that the person is deliberating about their own life, like why?

[01:02:35] Like just, just try not to get it into like a really cliche space. I was just like to keep an open mind is important. And it's not okay even to talk about it. Do you realize when you're not letting people talk about it, they're going to be more likely to kill themselves. So if you're actually wanting. Yeah. From what you say to prevent, I think you're getting it wrong. That's like the great irony, but I get to find the words to articulate clearly to those people, like why that's a problem.

[01:03:03] But I realize like the whole like lens of this field is just how do we, like what drives people to end their own lives? Then how do we prevent it? Like it's all through that. It's driven by like, how do we just prevent it? It's not to suggest that that's not part of the conversation, but I wonder why it's become such a part of it that we can't seem to make much room for the other things just talking about.

[01:03:29] I'm not the only one who feels that's important, of course, but like, why does it seem like it's such a controversial or to some people repugnant idea as if the conversation itself is essentially giving someone the license or the freedom or the encouragement to kill themselves. What else do you want to share with me and or by proxy, the audience who hears this? I think I've mentioned this before, but it's probably like goes into my thinking.

[01:03:59] I'm unlike suicide, but I feel kind of worthless. And I don't think that it's necessarily pathological. What do you, so when you say that, you mean it's not like a mental illness? No. Right. Like you're allowed to feel that way as a human being and it's, for lack of a better word, like normal. Yeah. Yeah. But it's, I don't know, it's part of life in a way, I guess.

[01:04:24] I'm about to do this kind of experimental treatment in like a week. Uh, I'm going to be part of a study that is going to be testing transcranial magnetic stimulation, but like a regimen of it, right? It's normally done for about half an hour at a time, once a day for several weeks. Right.

[01:04:47] This study that I'm going to be a part of, I'm going to receive it for 10 minutes, every hour for 10 hours over five days. Um, and it's specifically for, um, studying whether it has an effect in people who've been diagnosed with depression, but also have suicidal ideation. So yeah, this is something actually that my therapist, another shout out, uh, looked up and found and recommended. Yeah. I don't know.

[01:05:16] I'm going into it. I'm just like super curious. Cause like that, that's going to be so bizarre if like all of a sudden I'm not thinking about it. Like, right. Like you get out of the five days and you're like, I feel good. I don't, I'm good. I think I'm good for a little while. See what happens and who knows what'll happen, but yeah. Are you going to, um, what's the rest of your night like? And then I'm going to probably go to sleep. I don't know. I might eat something. Definitely going to drink more. I'm going to sleep. Well, thanks for talking. Talia.

[01:05:45] Thank you for talking and listening. Memoir title to come. Yeah. No, this has been a thing that like, it's been really interesting, uh, talking with you. I gotta go. I'm going to sleep. Thanks again. Good night. All right. Bye. As always. Thanks so much for listening and all of your support and special thanks to Talia in California. Thanks Talia. If you are a suicide attempt survivor and you'd like to talk, please reach out. Hello at suicidenoted.com.

[01:06:14] You can check the show notes to learn more about this podcast, including our membership, the noted network, among other things. And if you have a moment, please rate and review this podcast on Apple or Spotify really helps people find it. And of course we want more people to find it. Thanks. And that is all for episode number two, four, nine. Stay strong. Do the best you can. I'll talk to you soon.