Survivor Update #1: Zach & Emma

[00:00:00] Kind of like the person is in a hole and instead of you saying, oh, just take the rope and come up, why don't you get into the hole with them and say, okay, climb on my shoulders. Let's both get out.

[00:00:34] Hey there, my name is Sean and this is Suicide Noted. On this podcast, I talk with suicide attempt survivors so that we can hear their stories. Every year around the world, millions of people try to take their own lives and we almost never talk about it. We certainly don't talk about it enough. And when we do talk about it, so many of us,

[00:00:50] we're not very good at it and that matters. So one of my goals with this podcast is to have more conversations and hopefully better conversations with attempt survivors in large part to help more people in more places, hopefully feel a little less shitty and a little less alone. Now, if you are a suicide attempt survivor and you'd like to talk, please reach out. A simple email will do hello at suicidenoted.com. You can check the show notes to learn all kinds of things about this podcast, including our membership,

[00:01:18] the Noted Network. The Suicide Noted podcast is officially sponsored, fiscally sponsored by an organization called Air Media. What this means is that if you donate, you can deduct it from your taxes, check with your accountant, of course, and we can apply for grants. And we will be doing that because in 2025, I need to kick some damn ass. And we're going to keep doing the Monday episodes and we got the guest updates.

[00:01:43] And today is actually guest update number one, more on that in a moment. And of course, we've got those members meetings, but our plans to take all of these episodes and transcribe them. And our plans to take these episodes and offer them potentially in different languages, starting with Spanish. We want to get this around the world more and more English and other languages. There are some other things we want to do as well. World domination is not one of them, but we do want to continue making change and making impact and helping people out as best we can.

[00:02:13] So I'll be spending 2025 doing what I can so I can be doing this work as often as I can. And part of that is funding. So I'll ask you and maybe you know people and if you know people, especially the big fish with the deep pockets and the big hearts, please let me know. We really could use the help. This takes time. This takes energy and resources and money. Finally, we are talking about suicide on this podcast and me and my guests. We don't typically hold back.

[00:02:40] So please take that into account before you listen or as you listen. But I do hope you listen because there is so much to learn. And today is our first guest update. This was originally recorded in 2022. It took me a long time to finally publish it. My bad. I will be better about that. There's a couple other conversations I've had from back then that I will publish and new ones. So if you're a guest, if you've been on this podcast and you want to talk again, please let me know. I'd love to hear how you're doing, how your life is, the good, the bad, the ugly, all of it in between.

[00:03:08] Today, I am talking with Zach in Illinois and Emma in South Africa. If you'd like to hear the original conversation with either or both of them, Emma is episode number 18 and Zach is number 20. And of course, both Zach and Emma are suicide attempt survivors. Hey, Emma, long time no see. How are you doing? I'm good. How are you? I am doing all right. Still in South Africa? Yes, but it's very cold. Zach, my friend, how are you?

[00:03:37] I'm doing very well. Thank you. What is new with you since we last spoke? Yeah, I've definitely gotten a lot more stuff done and I figured out exactly what I want to do for a major. Whoa, whoa. Let's back up for a second. So if people don't make you mean you're referring to college and at the time you didn't know. Yeah, I'm referring to college. I'm going more towards social work. Social work. But I'm going to be targeting autistic and neurodivergent youth like my dad does. Your dad's in that field? Yeah, and he's an entrepreneur.

[00:04:08] My plan is to possibly be employed with a company for a bit and then branch off on my own and partner with him. Yeah, I want a dad like yours. Yeah, he's been at it for two decades. We talked in September of 2020. So it's actually close to two years. Where does the time go? I was still in community college at that point. I'm now at university. Congratulations on that. Thank you. Now, if people go to your podcast episode or our conversation, they will also know that you are rather active.

[00:04:37] I believe it is a Facebook page. I don't know if you're on other social media platforms and you have a certain name you go by, right? Yes, Zasby. And are you still using that name in some spaces on the interwebs? Yes, it's generally Facebook because that's where I post all my blog stuff. I want people to know, hey, you came on this program when you did and you were a suicide attempt survivor. You're obviously still here with us. You've got a major.

[00:05:03] You've got plans to work with your father after doing some other work in the field. And you said in two years or three years and future, future. So it sounds like, you know, you'll always tell me if I'm wrong here. When you're talking about future, future, future, are you still suicidal? Not at all. Were you suicidal when we talked or were you kind of past that? Kind of past it, but I still had flashes. Like I still have flashes every now and again, but they're very, very brief and they don't take hold.

[00:05:32] It's a tough question, but was there something in your life or more than one thing that really helped you get from where you were to where you are now? Well, definitely certain family members who stepped up and certain friends as well. They really supported and stepped up to the game, so to speak. You know, sometimes I like to sort of pick apart words.

[00:05:57] So when you say stepped up or even the word supported, what does or did that look like? They told me they'd always be there for me. They told me what it would mean to them, like if I had actually succeeded versus the fact that I'm still here. I know one friend who I've hung out with a lot this summer, like he once grabbed me in a very tight bear hug and told me never to do it again. That was five years ago. All right. So that was well before we ever met or talked. Yeah.

[00:06:27] Anything else help? Definitely like finding new goals to meet. I got now I have my own vehicle. I've got a job that I can take extra shifts at and make a good deal of money to like combat bills. And I've definitely been able to get myself like in short term, a lot more gadgets to play with. Like those things definitely keep me excited because they they definitely keep me going. So right now it's just short term gratification. But like the longer term is like actually getting the degree.

[00:06:56] Right.

[00:07:25] Right. For example, myths around suicide is a question I commonly ask among other things. So as you have view of suicide or attempt survivors or perhaps even those that attempted and that are no longer with us. Has that shifted at all? And if it's no, that's fine. It's not a loaded question. Not really per se.

[00:07:48] But like as I move forward and get farther and farther away from the event itself, like and seeing like the ways I've bounced back. Like it's like that was like a stepping stone for what was to come. Did you have a beard and mustache when we talked? I had a full beard. Not not so much anymore. Yeah. He's sporting the goatee now. I was going to ask you like how you felt about talking with me. But one, it's been a long time.

[00:08:15] And two, it sounds like the kind of question where I'm looking to say nice things about me and I'm not. But I'm really more trying to get at like what was the experience like for you when I know you talk about it in other spaces. The blog is full of references to those times. Being interviewed by someone is definitely different than writing out my thoughts, which honestly come to me a lot easier than speaking them because I'm dyslexic.

[00:08:38] It's easier for me to write out my thoughts because I have control over those and I can choose how I want to continue those words instead of making them up on the fly. Hey, I'm wondering, did you ever actually listen to our conversation? I did not because like I forgot how to dig that out. And at the same time, I don't like hearing my own voice in recordings. It's something I'm going to have to get over with because alongside the major, I'm going to be moving into the public speaking field, which I have gotten naturally better at.

[00:09:06] Like I don't tremble in my legs like I did before, but I don't like hearing my own voice. And somehow my dad who doesn't, who is the same way he's mastered that and he always listens over his recordings because he records on a daily basis. And he does his social work sessions over Zoom himself and he records them. Gotcha. Yeah, it is hard, but probably does help. How are you getting into the public speaking space? I did start in high school.

[00:09:34] I haven't gone any further since my junior year, but like with my dad's help after I get a major and like make a name for myself, that's how I'm going to start getting gigs. I love it. I like the word gigs. Stick around, Zach, because I might have more questions. And as you listen to me and Emma, you might think of something you want to share. Cool? Yeah. Emma, what's going on? Thank you for meeting with me and Zach. And you are another of our September 2020 survivors, attempt survivors.

[00:10:02] One question I didn't ask Zach, and I think I know the answer to, but I'm going to ask you. And I didn't ask him this question. Okay. Since we talked, did you attempt again? No, but I think that'll flow into the conversation. Okay. And please share with me and us the name of your town, because it is the coolest name of any town in the world. Blumfenstein. It's still my favorite city name. Blumfenstein. We spoke in September of 2020.

[00:10:31] Did you listen to our conversation somehow anywhere? I actually did. So on the Apple playlist, but I never got through the whole, I can't listen to the whole episode. I can't. So it may be 10 minutes in, but then I just, I stopped listening. Just hearing myself say some of those things. I just don't think that I'm ready to hear myself.

[00:10:55] I mean, obviously when you speak, you hear yourself, but I think to sit down in silence and hear yourself is kind of wild to me. I don't think I'm ready to do that. I don't know if I told you this on the podcast, but I don't know if I had gotten it yet, but I actually got tattooed. And it has something to do with the suicidal gems. So I have the word continue and then the date 25, 10, 19. So I don't know if I ever mentioned that.

[00:11:24] I think I got it in the, yeah, I got it in the January of 2021. I got it tattooed on me and I thought, you know, that, oh, you know, it's now on me and I'm in you, but it was very impulsive. My first ever tattoo and I just, I don't know. I don't know what I was trying to achieve by getting it. I don't know if you remember, but a lot of what was surrounding, what pushed the kind of attempt that day was solely surrounding my academics.

[00:11:52] It's gotten progressively worse. And so there's definitely moments. I think there was definitely last year, December, where I feel like I was back in that place. But funny enough, like I keep saying, I keep just reinforcing that, oh, it should have worked. Like I want to die. I should have died. I should have died. I could have died. But like, I robbed myself from dying, but I just actively can't do anything. I don't, I don't know what it is.

[00:12:20] It's more of a verbal and a cognitive thing. But now I physically just, I won't plan anything. I won't put myself in harm's way. So I think that's, that's progress, but also it's not a little. We talked in September, 2020 and January, 21, you got the tattoo. To the end of last year, 2021, you were in a darker place or especially dark place. Yes. You didn't try again? Not, not actively.

[00:12:47] I think it was, but also the kind of the situation kind of didn't allow because the first time I attempted, I was living on my own. I had no one around me. I was, I was completely alone. Last December, I kind of, I had my sister here. I had no mother here, so I wasn't going to be traumatizing people like that. So Emma, given what you've just shared, I'm wondering, tough question here, right? Are you wanting to be alive? I feel bad for answering this question because I feel like so many people make progress and

[00:13:17] so many people, I mean, Zach for one, it's incredible. Zach is in a, an incredible space, you know? And then I feel like I don't, I don't want to discourage people and be like, even if the answer isn't yes, that's yes. Does it mean I, I still want to kill myself. It just means that life is difficult right now and I'm still working on it. Sure. It doesn't mean that like, oh no, he's going to try and offer herself right now. She doesn't say yes.

[00:13:42] So, so based on your answer, I think I have a sense of, okay, things are hard. Yeah. I'm pretty sure if I talk to everybody again, you'd have some people who are doing better and some people who aren't. I don't, you know, for me, I don't know if I'm any better. I mean, kind of sometimes, maybe, I'm not sure. You know, I don't have a tattoo. What's a new tattoo? Maybe you should get one. I, I honestly, I don't, I wouldn't say that I'm worse, but I wouldn't say that I'm better either.

[00:14:11] I think I'm, I'm in just a weird space. And I think definitely if there was a chance that I could, you know, get pneumonia and die, I wouldn't feel terrible. I just feel like I can't do anything now. Like, I just feel like, I don't even know how to put it, to be honest. I just, I just feel weird. Are you feeling like stuck between a rock and a hard place? No, but it's because I kind of, I kind of feel like I can't put my family through what

[00:14:40] they went through the first time. And I feel like you either, this is going to sound so bad, but either it should have gone wrong. But the fact that I'm okay, I can't do that to my family again. The first time we ever spoke, I think it was actually in my interview when you had asked me, what would I like people to know? And I very passionately said that it's so unfair to call someone selfish because I had

[00:15:07] people in my life say, oh, but that's so selfish. Right. Oh my word. Do you know what it would have done to your mom? Do you know what it would have done to your brother? But then don't you think in a sense that we're both selfish, quote unquote, such as leave people behind and kind of, you know, transfer pain. But then aren't you also, or the people around me, isn't it also selfish that they would rather

[00:15:31] have me here knowing that I'm so unhappy, knowing that I'm so unfilled, knowing that I can't do simple things on the weekend, like get up and shower and be functional. Like is, is it not then both of us who are equally selfish? In my case, I recognized that my attempts were selfish choices, particularly mine. Like I was thinking of ending my own pain. I wasn't thinking about what it would do to others. Interesting perspectives.

[00:16:00] So I guess in the academic part of my life, it's still stagnant and it's still scary and daunting and not so good, but I feel like there has been a little bit more growth in other aspects. So kind of just also my friendships, like if something wasn't really serving me, I clearly just, I just let it go. I was like, okay, you know, there's nothing that I can do. Also in terms of relationships that I've gotten rid of a lot of unhealthy, I don't entertain that energy.

[00:16:29] I don't keep that around. So I think that also helps because I think for me, it was definitely a thing of things would build. So it would be a bad relationship and then bad academic season and then bad friendships. So it was just all of these things piling on, but I feel like I've learned to kind of flush out some of it, you know, and, and kind of create the healthier space for myself. And also just like not letting other people and things that I can get rid of or, or get

[00:16:58] rid of is quite strong. But the people that I don't need to keep in my life, in my space, I don't need to have them. And what they are doing tax my mental health. Do you, and also let's, you know, when we talk, and this is for the both of you, smack dab in the middle of COVID. All my friends were complaining about having to be stuck in the house and not hanging out, but I was, I was used to like staying in the house and doing my own thing. So it didn't really impact me. Zesby, you are resilient.

[00:17:23] Emma, uh, is anything shifted in as much as you can recall on your perspective or your views around suicide, whether that's connected to your own experience or in general, since we talked. And that was again, what, 22 months ago. I still think I stand on the fact that it's such a, a complex and a, a heavy thing that we still all need to, um, approach with kindness and gentleness.

[00:17:51] But I also do think that there's, and I think I realized this through like a little bit of therapy afterwards and having conversations with people that I feel safe with and really trust is just someone being firm in a gentle way as well. Sometimes I think that it's, it's good to have a different perspective on things. So someone not invalidating what you feel, but kind of when you are so close to situation,

[00:18:19] you know, or if you're looking at a picture right in front of your eyes, the picture becomes distorted and it's, it's quite a, it's quite a blur. And I think if you, you remove whatever is in front of your eyes a bit further back, it's a bit more of a clearer picture. So I think if we, it's a complex issue, it's a sensitive issue. And if we approach it with love and if people are able to be, because stern is the wrong

[00:18:46] word, but if people are able to kind of work with you and not kind of counter every feeling and counter every point. And I think that we could get somewhere, you know, and I don't think that everyone can be talked out of how they're feeling. I don't think that everyone can, you know, I don't think that you could just lift someone out of that space. But I think that you could do a lot if you sit in it and you try to understand it.

[00:19:12] And you also just, you bounce back with the person of like, oh, this, is this what you're feeling? Okay. But this is the route that you want to take in this. This is the reasoning behind it. But also like, do you think that maybe in three months time that it could be a possibility of getting that job or you could, you know, move out or, you know, just, yeah, I think, I think you get what I'm trying to, you've got to meet people where they are. You're not saying you want them to die if they're suicidal, but you're agreeing that

[00:19:42] you are honoring and accepting. That's how they're feeling. You, if you're pushing back all the time, of course, they're going to close up and not share who wouldn't constant counter argument, kind of like the person is like in a hole. Um, and instead of you saying, oh, just take the rope and come up. Why don't you get into the hole with them and say, okay, like climb on my shoulders. Let's both get out. Not just, oh no, take the damn rope and like, pull you up. Like I'll pull you out. Like, don't be ridiculous. Take the rope and come up.

[00:20:12] You know, there's a word I'm thinking of for people who won't get down in the hole with you. You know what it is? Selfish. Oh, drop the mic moment here on suicide. Noted. It comes full circle. Oh, I also do apologize if anyone listens to this and I'm, I'm, I sound like I'm joking about everything and I'm laughing. It's just, I would rather laugh than cry. Cause I still feel very, like, I still don't feel completely okay. Okay. And I say this, but I'm like, I don't even know if I'm going to reach that.

[00:20:42] I don't know if there's ever going to be a moment to get, where I'm going to be impulsive and I'm going to get it right. I don't know that. Yeah. So sometimes it gets a little uncomfortable and I think I'd rather laugh. So I do apologize if anyone listens to this, but I got my word. This call is so disrespectful. My dad raised me to be kind, honest and full of integrity. And I've, I've only exuded that as I've grown up. The United States is a community that's wrought with corruption and negativity in a general

[00:21:11] census, especially with entitled people who think that it's their right to have everything, especially among men where the media feeds us that we need to be strong, muscular, and we need to be a dick all the time. I am the exact opposite of that man to people who know me. Every time someone comes across me and hears how I talk, how I am, they express shock and like say that it is so refreshing to hear someone like, well, this is how I was raised. This is what I believe in. And I will never be anything else.

[00:21:42] Kudos to your dad and mom, dad and mom, right? Mostly my dad. My dad was the one who really stepped up. Kudos to Zach's dad. Zach's getting a little political over there. By the way, Emma lives in South Africa. I think she can talk to corruption as well a little bit. Probably. You originally found me. We found each other. You agreed to come on the podcast back in the day. You did it. Time has gone by. You are even in a smaller subset of people who are now willing to come back on again and

[00:22:09] share what your lives are like, whatever's going on almost two years later. So why? You know, curious. I was very proud of myself for the interview that I did with you because it was the first time that I ever had actually spoke about the attempt and in full. And I think you were just very gracious to me and you allowed me the space to speak about it because I think for my, so my parents till this day don't know what happened.

[00:22:35] We don't, it's completely, it doesn't exist. I think I was just really proud of myself for doing it and I felt safe and I would do this every second day if I could. Oh, nice. I understand the subject of taboo topics and in America, suicide is definitely one, but in America, like everyone's afraid of everything. Like they're good with seeing someone's head chopped off on TV.

[00:23:03] But if you say fuck, they cower. Like everything is over here. So part of my blog is to challenge taboo notions. Like say, I am not, I'm not following that taboo shit. This needs to be talked about. That's amazing. That's awesome. No, it's like, if someone's not going to say it, I'll say it. That's a, yeah, it's what I do. I want to be able to touch more people with my story.

[00:23:29] So to speak, I'm still kind of in a rut with getting followers on onto my page at the same time, the people who are still there are really, really engaging with the stuff I've been dropping recently, which is definitely keeping my post going. Yeah. And having to adapt to a society that like is very judgmental. Like I've definitely had to learn the way, but I've also had to make my own way. Now, Zach, you have a question for Emma.

[00:23:57] What drives you through each and every day? I actually love physiotherapy. So I know that sounds so cringe, but it's my degree and just getting to experience and learn about how beautiful it is and how you can touch lives. I think that that really drives me. What drives you, Zach? My life is divided into a series of short-term and long-term goals. And that's what I use as my drive.

[00:24:26] Like say a new movie's coming out on 4K Blu-ray, like that's a short term. I'm able to pay off my car. That's a long-term. Yeah. I use those things to like keep my head centered and focused and like keep it off like the thought of suicidal ideation. You both have, to state the obvious, things that get you through the day. Simplified way of saying, hey, whatever it takes. I mean, you have a question for Zach.

[00:24:50] What are some of the ways that you've learned to deal with unhealthy things and, or like, have you caught yourself in any unhealthy substitutes? So I think if you're distracting, are you distracting and like, okay, I'm going to the bath party because you know, that's, that's unhealthy, like catching every Saturday morning. So have you caught yourself with any unhealthy substitutes and have, what are like healthy ones?

[00:25:19] Usually I have trouble getting out my, my thoughts like of negative emotions and I'm actually in therapy right now. And I'm going to unleash some of those thoughts today in the session. Definitely. If I'm down, I'll be binge eating some candy that's over on my left, making sure it doesn't rot my teeth out. I have definitely become more grounded in ending toxic relationships. Like, because I know that they're doing me no good. And when I realized that they've crossed a boundary, I just don't, I don't take it.

[00:25:49] I cut the, I cut the ties immediately. Yeah. So that's one way for sure. Like recognizing that I deserve much better than this. And that if I'm ever going to find out how much better I deserve, I need to get rid of what I don't deserve. Yes. I agree. A hundred percent agree. I stepped away from people pleasing a while ago, but I've been kind of falling back into it, but I've been having to like, stop, step back and say, wait a minute. This is a trap. Yep.

[00:26:18] Now there's a question for me. So I don't know if I recall the situation, um, correctly, but did you start suicide notes it because you had a friend who committed suicide? I had a friend who committed suicide many years ago. It was my best friend. And so I would say that was one reason, but it was many years after he died. Have you ever attempted and do you feel like you're in a good mental space?

[00:26:44] I have never, I have never attempted in the way I would define attempting if I have to label it chronic, passive, suicidal ideation, which means for many years it's there. Will I follow through with it? Very unlikely, but it's there. I always kind of had plans in place because it would ease my mind. I haven't really done planning.

[00:27:10] I am more the person, more the person where, you know, you're on the highway and like it would be real easy right now. Am I going to do it? Probably not. The other thing that I think is a little darker is for, for some years I was using heavy drugs in a reckless way. And I don't, I think it's safe to say some of that was a slow suicide. And that also goes to alcohol, which I still struggle with. And I think that my friend's death and other friends who have struggled and my own struggles to be completely frank.

[00:27:40] I don't know what would have happened if it weren't for COVID because for some reason I just gave myself the kick in the ass to learn the few things I needed to learn. Cause I get very overwhelmed with technology to get it started. And I've thought about this recently and it wasn't so much that I had a lot more time. It was something for me. This is such a head game here that the world, it felt like the world slowed down and I could catch up. I don't know. I can't explain it. There was something about what was going on or like how I perceived it in the world.

[00:28:08] I was like, you know, cause I mean, I, you know, I had, I had the idea probably upwards of a year before I started it. So like a lot of projects, you put it off, but once I started it, it gained some momentum and I really felt comfortable and good in that space that, you know, I just kept moving forward with it. I am proud of that. And thank you for acknowledging that. Thank you for noticing. Yeah. I feel good about it. I quit most things. Didn't quit this. Glad that it's a space for people to feel, you know, comfortable enough to talk. And yeah. All right, Zach. All right, Emma. Thanks again.

[00:28:37] Looking forward to another update sometime in the future. As always, thanks so much for listening and all of your support. Special thanks to Zach and Emma. Our first suicide attempt survivor guest update. There will be more. If you are a suicide attempt survivor and you'd like to talk, or you are a past guest and you'd like to talk, please reach out. Hello at suicidenoted.com. Check the show notes to learn all kinds of things about this podcast, including our membership and the noted network.

[00:29:07] And hey, I really appreciate you listening. And that is all for episode number 247. Stay strong. Do the best you can. I'll talk to you soon.