Steve in Ohio

[00:00:00] I think to myself, well, what do I want to do when they're gone? Just like, do I want to be homeless or do I want to be dead?

[00:00:55] I'm a little less shitty and a little less alone. We've been doing it for more than six years now. I'm real proud of that. Now if you are a suicide attempt survivor or ideator and you'd like to talk, please reach out. Hello at suicidenoted.com. I will get back to you real quick, I promise. A couple of notes. I wrote a manifesto. In fact, I wrote two. They're not public yet. I'm not sure what I want to do with them. So look for them somewhere. They might be on my website. I'll announce it here. They might be on another site.

[00:01:26] I'd really love to get your thoughts on them. They're pretty hardcore. That shouldn't come as a surprise. The other thing I did in a way to try to make some money so that I can continue doing this work and expanding this work is I created a few programs. One is called, and the one I want to talk about just for today is called The Missing Record. And a lot of it overlaps with the work I do here, but it's not quite the same. So I will include that link, themissingrecord.com.

[00:01:54] So you can learn more if you want to in the main podcast description. Not the episode, but the main podcast description. It might be something you or somebody that you know could benefit from. I'll leave it at that for now. Finally, we're talking about suicide. My guests and I do not hold back, so please take that into account before you listen or as you listen. But I do hope you listen because there is so much to learn. Today, I am talking with Sean.

[00:02:20] Steve lives in Ohio, and he is a longtime chronic suicide ideator. Steve, how are you, sir? I'm doing okay. How are you doing? I would say I'm the same. Would that be more on the positive or negative side? Ooh, who's doing the interviewing here? I would lean towards negative but manageable.

[00:02:44] I mean, I don't think people who are really in a good space consistently start a podcast called Suicide Noted. You know what I mean? Yeah. No, that makes total sense. Yeah, it's not like an accident that I started this because I was just bored and was like wondering, you know. You know, listening to your podcast has been really helpful for me hearing other people's stories. And I just wanted to commend you for allowing people like us to have a voice. This stuff is hard to talk about.

[00:03:13] You're afraid if you say something to the wrong person that, you know, it might cause them extreme distress or might cause something negative to happen to you. I appreciate it. I'm glad that you get something out of it. I'm glad that you found it. I'm glad that we connected and were able to do this. Where are you? Well, I'm in the Cleveland, Ohio area. Man, I speak to a lot of people from Ohio. This is something interesting. My mom used to be into true crime stuff and she would talk about how a disproportionate number of serial killers were from Ohio.

[00:03:43] Right. So I don't know what's going on here. I bet there's people that study that stuff. Like, for example, there's a reason why in certain states there's higher trafficking and it's like, well, there's certain highways that make it easier. So it's like, oh, I didn't realize that, but that makes sense. And I bet it's the same. I don't know for suicide, maybe for serial killers. Like there's a few components that maybe we're not thinking of when you add them up.

[00:04:06] But for suicide, actually, and Ohio aside, I mean, there are certain places or certain demographics where it's higher and they study it and they at least theorize, OK, well, it makes sense because they don't have access to consistently good health care. Or they live somewhere where it's 200 miles to the closest mental health facility or they don't have health insurance or their community doesn't trust doctors or on and on and on and on. Well, you add that up and you're more likely to kill yourself.

[00:04:31] I know Ohio doesn't seem to do as badly as other states, but I know this is a little divergent here, but you're mentioning human trafficking. I grew up in the Toledo area. Years ago, I heard that Toledo was one of the big hotspots for human trafficking because interstates 80 and 90, which go east to west and interstate 75, are like two of the biggest highways in the country and they cross in Toledo. So, Steve, in Ohio, you reached out to me not that long ago. You have heard the podcast. Yes.

[00:05:01] You have heard people who I spoke with talk about all kinds of things. It's not just suicide. It's their lives. But it's centered on an attempt or near attempt or chronic ideation or something like that. So I don't have a formula for how I start these other than typically saying hello and thanks for being here. So thanks for being here. I'm talking. How did you stumble upon a podcast? For some people, seeing something that says suicide or in this case, suicide noted would be like, oh, I have no interest in listening to something like that. I don't care what it is. But you're not that.

[00:05:31] Well, I think to start off with, mental health is something that I've struggled with for a very long time. When I was a kid, I mean, you wouldn't think I would have mental health problems. I mean, I had a good education. I came from a loving family. You would think that I would have a lot of advantages over a lot of people. But that's no guarantee. As a kid, I mean, I wasn't I mean, I was fairly happy. I do remember as a kid, I do remember getting bullied a lot. And it happened a lot of places.

[00:06:01] It happened in school. It happened with kids in the neighborhood. It even happened with a couple kids at church. And I wasn't I didn't suffer terribly for it. I mean, I I mean, a little of it was physical, mostly verbal. But I never got like a black eye or bloody nose or anything like that. So I was fortunate in that respect. But I do think it's the kind of thing that really can have a negative impact on you that just lasts and lasts.

[00:06:29] You begin to believe that the world is just kind of hostile to you and your well-being. It just feels like you're just kind of alone sometimes. And it's kind of like you against the world. When you say sometimes, is it sometimes or more than sometimes? Sometimes. Yeah, maybe it's more than sometimes and maybe quite often. And you're in your how old are you? Forty nine. You're forty nine. So this has been going on for 40 plus years. That's a that's a long time. Well, I mean, I mean, the bullying.

[00:06:56] I mean, the bullying was just mostly as a kid. But what you were describing in terms of the the impact up until this moment has been going on for decades. It still crops up every now and then. And I think when I'm ruminating and I think back to my childhood that those incidents always seem to come to the forefront. Yeah, it's interesting. So I think a lot of people like, you know, I grew up in Toledo. My family was nice. They were loving. I shouldn't feel this way, but I do. So maybe it's because of this reason.

[00:07:25] I mean, it's just an interesting thing to think about, because I think people end up here on my podcast. Do are there more people here that have been affected by certain really traumatic things? Yeah. Than the general population? Sure. But I don't know. I've talked to a lot of people. Their childhoods were kind of normal and kind of nice. And they are multiple attempt survivors. And you're like, oh, OK, so there's more to it then. Obviously, there's more to it. Yeah, and I was actually kind of a shy kid, too.

[00:07:50] And it was hard for me to, like, really get involved with others. And I mean, I did have friends, but there were also times where I just seemed like I just wasn't included in a lot of stuff and just feeling kind of left out. And I just had a really hard time just being confident and sticking up for myself. I think that kind of worsened things for me. I think by the time I got to be a freshman in high school, I'm tempted to say that's when some of the passive ideation started.

[00:08:20] Passive ideation? Well, yeah. I mean, I think that's it. I mean, I wasn't really coming up with active plans, but it was more like a feeling of I just want to die. I don't want to be here anymore. I think a lot of my friends at that point were transferred to other schools. So I lost a lot of my friends that year, and I did a couple things, not to go into detail, but I did a couple things that kind of I regret doing that kind of alienated me from a few people. And that's when the loneliness got worse.

[00:08:50] Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm really good at alienating people, so that resonates with me. And it's funny because, you know, when I talk about it, it comes up on the podcast, me talking about being lonely. I know there are certain people in my life, should they hear that, they're like, yeah, look how you act. It's like, yeah, no, I'm not saying there's not a reason I'm lonely. I understand that, but it still sucks. I appreciate the fact that you're willing to just get straight to the point and push for detail.

[00:09:14] So I'm wondering why you didn't share the two things that you did that alienated you. Are you going to out someone you don't want to out? Yeah, I mean, that was over 30 years ago. So I think the stuff that's more recent is more relevant. So I just struggled on and off with depressive episodes throughout my adult life. It got, I had a bad one where my anxiety was really bad. I think I was in my early 30s. Went on medication.

[00:09:42] I think my diagnosis was major depression, impartial remission with treatment. So the medication helped. There I was still showing residual symptoms. So it helped, but it didn't make the depression go away completely. What were the big symptoms that would, because depression really does look different for different people, right? So when you were in an episode, whether it was the, well, we can actually talk about both. I mean, you know, unmedicated, diverse medicated. I mean, what would it look like? Would it be bedridden all day?

[00:10:12] Would it just be being sullen? What was it like for you? Yeah, mine, I mean, mine wasn't severe. It was not severe to the point where I couldn't get out of bed or take a shower. Because I know some people, that's a big struggle for some people who are in that state. It never got that bad for me. But for me, it was just feeling a sense of total listlessness and feeling kind of hopeless about the future. Oh, yeah. And not feeling like I just really had a place in the world. And that's another thing.

[00:10:41] I've been kind of, I struggled a lot throughout my adult life with just being underemployed in general. I've always envied people who figured out what they were good at when they were young and they could make a career out of it. Preach to the choir, baby. Me too. Me too. I'm like, oof. Not that it's me comparing my life to yours at all, but some of the stuff you're saying, I'm like, yeah. I have one friend in particular who's like college. And he's like, I know I'm going to be in public relations.

[00:11:09] And he fucking crushed it. Worked for some firms, opened his own firm, sold his firm. He's my age, married with two kids. He's a millionaire. And you're like, you knew at 19? I mean, I'm happy for those people. I'm just sad that I could never be one of them. Fuck that. I'm not happy for them. I mean, good. I mean, it's one of my close friends, so I'm happy. But there's still envy. And I will not hide from that. And I do not mind being judged for using that word or feeling that way. I envy the fuck out of a lot of those people. I do.

[00:11:39] I don't think they necessarily are happy. I don't know the inner turmoil they're going through because money doesn't buy, we know. But the idea that you have a comfortable life. So the idea right now that if you never worked again, and in some cases this is actually, you can literally live however you want, could not be more envious of them. Well, yeah. And I do know a couple of people who are, for lack of a better term, trust fund kids. They could just stop working tomorrow and they'd be set for life. Unless they totally just went crazy and spent the whole fortune.

[00:12:09] But yeah, if they're going to like buy an island or something. But life isn't fair. And that's the hardest truth I've had to accept. And I still don't fully accept it. Well, my dad had a good line about, you know, everyone has opportunity in life, but the starting line is different for... Yeah. For me, it's very easy to, oh, you started ahead, but I always forget there was a lot of people that also started behind me. I don't know how you feel about this, but when I look at my life, sometimes I think I've got kind of a crappy personality. Ooh.

[00:12:37] Because, well, I don't know, do you take personality tests? Have you ever taken... Oh, I have the kind of personality that hates personality tests. But I think I did maybe once if you're talking about... And there's so many of them. You're talking about like the ENFP type stuff, Myers-Briggs. The problem for me, and I think this is not uncommon, is like almost every question I was like, it depends. Sometimes, yes. Sometimes... I could never give a straight answer. Yeah. Well, I mean, I've gotten some variations too on taking the different tests.

[00:13:05] But one thing that I think is fairly consistent for me is I wouldn't say I'm extreme, but I tend to be very introverted. I also tend to be not extreme, again, not extreme, but neurotic. And by neurotic, I mean someone who shows negative emotions more often like fear, anxiety, irritability, sadness. You navigate the world sort of through that lens. Yeah. And, you know, I think some people might disagree with me, but for me, I found it to be a really bad combination when you're introverted and neurotic.

[00:13:34] I tend to seek out alone time and solitude more than a lot of people. But then I deal with the negative emotions on top of that. So I'm so prone to just sitting around and balling over stuff and ruminating a lot. I fall into a trap. Definitely the word I was thinking of. It's a hard trap to get out of. If a portion or even perhaps a large portion of your life is sort of sitting around, mulling things over, what do you do to not feel like shit? You know, I think we all have our coping mechanisms.

[00:14:03] Some of mine are better than others. The worst part, like so many other people, I start doom scrolling on social media. Wait, wait, that's the worst one you do? No, no. Just to be clear, some people go to like crystal meth or heroin. Yeah. Yeah. No, I haven't done any hard stuff. I've done some THC and that's about as hard as I've gone. What about drinking? I don't drink. My mom was diagnosed with non-alcoholic liver cirrhosis, which she died from.

[00:14:33] My dad also was diagnosed with it a few years ago. You might be heading in that direction too, just genetically, right? Yes. No need to add alcohol to that mix. No, no. And I remember when my dad was in the hospital a few years ago, I was talking to the doctor there and I said, I said, I don't understand like why my mom died from this and now my dad has it. It's like, it just seems bizarre.

[00:15:00] And he just took one look at me and he said, well, he said, you're not obese. He said, keep it that way. Yeah. Okay. So I have an idea growing up. You're ideating. You said you started your freshman year of high school, more or less alienating yourself a little bit. At what point do the, and I don't, I'm being a little presumptuous here. Let me back up. Have at any point in your life you tried to take your life? No, I have not attempted. So we're talking about ideating and we're talking about, and I will ask this question

[00:15:26] in a moment, how close you've come, whether, whether that comes to a plan or just something you're thinking about in your head or swirling around. And I'm glad by the way, I started talking to people who weren't actual attempt survivors. It opened up a lot more conversations that I think are important and relevant. And it starts at freshman year. That was 35 years ago, more or less. Have you been ideating passively or actively since then? Oh yeah. And it hasn't been constant, but there were times, well, especially in the last few years,

[00:15:55] it got really intense. So I'll give you, I'll give you an example. I remember this was about 2017, 2018, and my mom had been diagnosed with her illness. I was working, I was cleaning in the hospital. Man, that's a rough job. My team leader that night, I was, and I was so, I think I was just kind of all pent up because I was having a bad day at work, stressful day at work. And I was worried about my mom and my team leader. When he comes out and asks me, he said, is there anything I can do for you?

[00:16:23] And I, at the time I was just so worked up about stuff. I remember I blurted out, yeah, how about put a bullet through my head? I've had people get angry with me before, usually because I did something accidental to mess them up. But I don't recall a time where I saw someone get so livid with me so quickly. Really? Why do you think that is? I'm not sure what his, if there was, had been like a suicide or something in his, his family or not. But when I said those words, when I said, yeah, you can put a bullet through my head.

[00:16:53] He just got so angry with me so fast and he's just immediately starts yelling at me. I don't want to hear you talk like that ever again. I didn't say anything after that, but I was thinking, yeah, well, I feel a lot better now that you've yelled at me. Right. So I'm not going to write the book, but if there was a book written about the things you don't say to somebody, whether it was what you said, which is, was probably not like if you actually had a gun, you would have said, please don't put a bullet in my head. Right? Like it was just the way of, you were just frustrated.

[00:17:23] However, it's worth considering things never to say to somebody when they say what Steve said is or ways to behave in responses to get angry and tell them to never talk like that again. And that is not only in the book, that would be in the first five pages. Well, I think my team leader, he had a lot of stuff going on his life at that point. Then I think he was going through a messy divorce and I'm sure he was dealing with a lot of stuff. You are a better man than I am because I love that you're, you're, you're thinking about his feelings and almost apologizing on his behalf.

[00:17:53] And we could certainly do that for all humans all the time. I don't give a shit. It's a shitty thing to fucking say to somebody. There's reasons he had it. Sure. It made sense to him at the time. I'm sure to say it. Yeah. Well, we, we, we had a kind of interesting relationship and he actually passed away, I think from COVID a few years after that. Oh, wow. Well, still going on page five or even earlier in the book. How often in your life have you said something like that?

[00:18:19] Whether it was, yeah, internally, externally, put a bullet in my head, run me over with your fucking car. That was the, actually, I think the only time where I was so blunt. There've been other times where I've alluded to the fact that I was just unhappy with just being alive. But, um, I, I, I learned quickly after that, maybe I need to keep things, not let people know. You know, I, I've read stuff too about if you're having those kinds of urges that, that people say, well, the warning signs will be obvious.

[00:18:47] But I think a lot of us who have those urges go to great lengths to hide those, hide that information from other people. That is why all the suicide awareness and all the warning signs have their place, but are wholly incomplete. A lot of people do a wonderful job. In fact, spend a lot of their time learning throughout their lives how to hide it really well. Yeah. So that was about, uh, like I said, it was about eight years ago. Things really, really got more intense.

[00:19:13] It's in, well, in 2021, 2021 was just kind of a crazy year for me because it was in August that we had to have our older cat put down. He'd been sick for a while. And then four months after that, my mom passes away. And then three and a half weeks after my mom passes away, our dog, uh, literally died in my arms on new year's Eve. A couple of weeks after that, my dad goes to the ER cause he's having breathing difficulties. That was from his, some of his health issues.

[00:19:41] So yeah, in the course of six months, uh, lost my older cat, lost my mom, lost a dog and thought I was losing my dad. Damn. Do you have, and at that time, are you single? Yes. So at that time you're living alone? Yeah, I was living, I was living, actually living in my parents' old house back in Toledo. They hadn't sold it yet. And I still had work and friends in the Toledo area. So did you, do you have humans in your life to support you? Yes. I mean, I did have, there were, there were a few people.

[00:20:10] I mean, I had a couple of friends and, um, the, the pastor at my church and some church members who I could confide in. Yeah. So I wasn't, I wasn't totally alone, but I was always a bit self-conscious about burdening them with my problems too much. Um, there were a couple of friends who I think drifted away during that time because I don't think they knew what to do with me. I wasn't handling, I was handling a lot of things poorly, but I remember there were days where I would wake up. I just wake up in the morning.

[00:20:39] I had this feeling of terror in my stomach. It was like, I never felt anxiety that horrible. It was just like, it just seemed like everyone, it just seemed like my whole family was dying. I just didn't know what to do with that. For about a first year and a half to two years after that, I had a bunch of other stuff happen. Um, we had to sell, we sold the family home. I got in a couple of months after that, I got in a car wreck, ran into someone who was running a red light.

[00:21:09] And then a few months after that, my church closed down, church families scattered, friends drifting away. And I also dealt with some, uh, romantic disappointment and rejection. That's when a lot of the ideation started to become a lot more active. What point are we talking about? Is this how long ago? Three years ago, I'd say. What has it been like in those three years? Well, that's for back in 2023, that was, that was really hard because, um, it would just seem like I was dealing with loss after loss.

[00:21:36] And I just didn't really have any hope for the future at that point. It just felt like I, I was just losing everything and everyone in my life. I mean, that's a bit of an exaggeration, but, but I remembered it started off with just some random intrusive thoughts. I was working at another hospital, uh, helping out in the kitchen. I remember putting away the silverware and utensils and I remember picking on, picking up one of those long, sharp butcher knives and I was just looking at it for a moment and I would

[00:22:05] think to myself, I wonder how this would like feel if I just stuck this between my rib cage. I'd be like, yeah, I'd be probably some intense pain for a few seconds, but then it'd all be over like all the grief and all the sadness. You better know what you're doing though. Yeah. Cause if you miss the mark, you're not going to die and you're going to be in a lot of pain. Right. And also as just as a side note, you're totally losing your job. It's not like I had the desire to do it necessarily, but, but in the back of my mind, I was trying to think up justifications for it. Yeah.

[00:22:35] So what do you think this isn't uncommon and I, neither of us, I don't think are, are study suicide or suicidal people. I mean, in a way I kind of do, but not really. It's just through these conversations, but it seems like there are a, it's not a small number of people who use this thing. And there's a word for it, I think, and I don't know what it is where it's like, they're not going to kill themselves, but they're thinking of the ways or thinking of the methods. They explore them. They imagine what it might be like far more times than not do they do anything with it,

[00:23:03] but it's helping them or serving them in some way. Is that accurate for you? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think that would be accurate. And after that, I was thinking about that. I realized, well, yeah, I, I, I feel like that, that doing it, if I wanted to end my life that way, that would be too violent. And that would be, that, that would be a messy cleanup for somebody. And I didn't want to do that. Even though it's like, I want to die. I don't, I also don't want to, I don't want to cause problems to that extent for other people. Right. So we don't want pain. We don't want messy and we don't want cleanup. Yeah.

[00:23:32] I don't want to cause trauma for other people. So I would just start going on the internet, I'd start going on Google and just start looking up other ways, maybe less painful, traumatic ways. Oh, did you find anything that was of interest? Well, you know, it's interesting. I, I, I've heard your other guests talk about it and there's a lot of truth to it. I mean, the, the, the most effective methods are often the most violent. And like you said, I mean, if you, if something goes wrong and you miss knife or gun or whatever,

[00:24:01] then you're in a whole lot worse shape than if you hadn't even tried. All true. But I was getting to the point where I was, I was just like getting materials. That's, that's more than ideating. Yeah. So like when, you know, when they, they ask you like, do you have a plan? Do you have a method? I mean, the methods and the means you're, you're starting to think about it more seriously. Yeah. You're gathering what? A lot of it is stockpiling pills. Some of your other guests have pointed out.

[00:24:28] I mean, that's not really, I found out later on that that's not really effective. But most of the time it just doesn't work. I don't know the numbers, but yeah. Seems to be the most common way and the least effective way or one of them. But it's only, I mean, one of the reasons is simply because there's just, there's just a lot of pills out there. If you want to stockpile pills that might end your life, most people can go to a doctor and you might have to get a little creative, but you'll get the pills. Yeah. Well, and I, I guess there are times I thought, well, you know, is there any way I can like

[00:24:55] go up to Canada because I, in Canada they have what, what's, what they have, what's called the MAID program. Right. Medical assistance in dying. And people are saying, well, you know, they can, not all the people who use that are terminally ill if you find the right doctor or whatever. I'm not sure. But I thought about that. Is that a possibility maybe? Yeah, sure. Well, that's somebody who's thinking about it pretty seriously. And that's all in the last few years? Yeah. Is that up until this moment? It's not so bad right now. It's, I mean, it comes and goes. It's, it's not as intense.

[00:25:24] It comes back fairly regularly. I think sometimes a lot of us are, have those urges because I think a lot of us feel like we're dealing with problems that are just insurmountable. I mean, I, right now I'm living with my dad and our one remaining cat. I mean, they're both elderly. They're both developing, they both have significant health issues. And I look around and I think, well, what do I do when they're gone? I mean, I've never really made enough money to comfortably support myself, really.

[00:25:52] I mean, I can, I've been working, but never really broke even to a high enough level where I felt comfortable, where I was comfortable. And I think to myself, well, you know, what do I want to do when they're gone? Just like, do I want to be homeless or do I want to be dead? You know, I wonder if, see how many people are in that position. And that's not something we're going to hear much. Like people aren't blasting that on social media here and there, they might. And it's a lot of, it's men and women, but I do think it skews towards men, 40s and up.

[00:26:21] Life hasn't worked out exactly as they may have wanted to or scripted. And that's a real thing, right? Lack of support, lack of resources, people are dying. And I'm not trying to, you know all of this, but it's, it's a real, I say it and I say it out loud because it's such a real thing. You literally are choosing between death or homelessness. That's a tough fucking choice. Yeah. I think a lot of people, like you said, are just feeling constrained. I mean, you know, I mean, you're in New York. No, I'm from New York. I don't, I don't live in New York. Okay.

[00:26:50] Okay. But I've heard a lot of people say who are dealing with the same issues that I am. It's like, it's, it's almost like it's too expensive to live now. Yeah. I just, a friend of mine in Tucson, Arizona filled up her sedan. She's got like a regular car and it was $99. Most people just can't afford to live that way. You're going to just have more and more homeless people and some of them are going to off themselves or be killed because homelessness is not a safe way to live. That's all that's happening. I don't know what gas is like in Ohio, but nonetheless. It's $4.50 here, get out here right now. Not cheap.

[00:27:20] So I have a question or a thought. One profession or role in life that doesn't get talked about that often is the caretaker role. For you, and there's two sides to it. There's actually more than two, but I want to ask you about two sides. One is, Hey, you've got purpose. Your cat needs you. Your dad needs you. You're going to show up for them. It sounds like you're the type of guy to show up. Right. Yeah. The other side of that is who's taking care of Steve. There's actually, and I don't have numbers. So if I'm wrong here, please don't email me telling me, oh, you can inform me and email

[00:27:48] me that like a lot of people in caretaker roles have a fairly high suicide rate or burnout rate at least. Yeah. Well, yeah. And I, and that's not surprising. I mean, I do have friends, I do have friends that I call to intermittently, but I think one of the things that was so hard for me losing my mom and my other pets, I mean, they've loved me unconditionally and enjoyed my company. When you lose three members of your, I mean, I still, I count pets as members of your family.

[00:28:17] I mean, some people might not, but I do. When you lose three members of your family like that so quickly, it's really hard. They make you feel seen. Yeah. And even though I have friends and so forth, there's a lot of times where I feel like I'm just kind of a, a big player in other people's lives. You said something that is quite simple in a way, but quite profound. It wasn't just that they loved you unconditionally. There's another huge thing you said that I think is so vital. And the reason why so many people are miserable, they enjoyed your company. Yeah.

[00:28:47] That is hard to find for many people, including me. Who are the people that enjoy my company? Not you're fun to hang out with once in a while or, you know, you enjoy my company. That's tough, bro. Yeah. You're definitely right about that. And I still get emotional talking about it, even though it's been four, five years. Yeah. There's no timeline on that kind of stuff. Right? So I want to just better understand and zoom out for a moment. You started thinking about this stuff in your teens. It sounds like from what you share, we haven't gone into detail and I don't think we need to.

[00:29:16] Teens, twenties, thirties, it sounds like you're sort of getting by, dealing with depression, sort of lower, lower paying jobs that are unfulfilling. And if I'm wrong, tell me. Because my brain just likes to paint these pictures. Probably not a lot of serious romantic relationships or long-term, right? You know, this is funny. I feel like an alien. Like I said, I'm 49 years old and I've never really had a serious relationship with anybody. Been on a very small handful of dates.

[00:29:45] I mean, they didn't go poorly, but nothing really got off the ground with any of them. But just that alone and you're looking around, whether it's through a computer or in real life and you know, you see it. People are getting dating, they're married, they're together. You look at a restaurant window and there's a couple, like you see everything. Yeah. And it's like, like you're reminded of what you don't have. 100%. I was actually, it's interesting. I was part of this online men's support group about a year ago and one of the co-facilitators

[00:30:15] of the group, his name was Alex. At the end of our session, at the end of the support group, we met for about eight weeks or so. And at the end, Alex said to me, he said, Steve, he said, you know, I know, you know, you've been struggling with that area of your life. Um, he said, I think you're an intelligent, good hearted person and I really want to help you with this. He said, I know another guy who was had a similar situation and he eventually found someone. He said the thing was he had to do a lot of work. Yeah.

[00:30:45] Go through, experience a lot of rejection. Yeah. Humiliation along the way. And when I heard that, I, it was, for me, it was kind of like a thanks, no thanks. Being lonely is painful, but being rejected and humiliated is even more painful. And you kind of, it's like the devil that, you know. Yes. Yeah, exactly. And I just, and I realized I just don't, you know, to go out and start dating and try and do all this stuff after all these other things have happened.

[00:31:12] It's just like, I just don't have the emotional bandwidth for that. Yeah. Right, right, right. And just going on a bunch of first dates. Cause these days with, you know, apps, maybe it's a little easier to find people, meet people, meet up once, but most of the time they don't work out like that in and of itself. Like you're saying it's, it's draining. It's, I don't know if it's humiliating. It might be for some. Yeah. It's like, I could see why someone would say I'd rather just not. I, I've, I heard this said on another podcast and I, I, it's so resonated with me.

[00:31:40] I mean, a lot of times people don't see the battles you're fighting every day. And it's like, I'm sure a lot of people would look at me and say I'm lazy and unmotivated and anti-social. And I don't think they realize like how much of my energy I have to devote just to convince myself to stay alive and keep going. Oh man. You just nailed the whole, that's, that's this podcast. You just nailed the, one of the big ideas around it. Yeah. How much energy it takes to just survive. I'm blessed.

[00:32:09] I have an office job right now. I mean, again, it's, it's not a high paying or anything, but it's something I can handle. But at the end of the day, I mean, I might just drive to the park for a little bit, decompress and then go home. And then I'm spent for the day. You know? And you're also taking care of an animal and an old, older person. And that's hard. Well, my, my dad is, he actually, um, I mean, in spite of all his issues, I mean, he actually has more of a social life than I do.

[00:32:36] He actually still gets out of the house a lot and, and, and I'm so grateful for that. So I think in some extent we lean on each other. Yeah. So you go to work, sometimes you go to the park, I'm guessing, then you go home, you do home stuff. Sometimes that's doom scrolling as, as you say. Um, and then like weekends, are you mostly, I'm, I feel like I have a pretty good picture. It's like you're homebound. You're, you're, you're, you're staying in. Um, I stay in a lot.

[00:33:02] I mean, like I said, I mean, it's, I have a lot of trouble being in like busy, noisy environments. I get overwhelmed very easily. And so it's either the park or the library for me a lot of the time when I go out. And you're alone. Yeah. I spend a lot of time alone. Yeah. Once in a while I'll have like lunch or dinner with a coworker, but, but that's, I mean, that doesn't happen every week or necessarily. Well, it's an interesting thing. And I don't know what the exact definition of introverted.

[00:33:31] I think sometimes people use it inaccurately, but you're somebody who sounds like they need alone time, but that is at the same time you're lonely. Yeah, it is. It is kind of a weird dynamic. And I think, I think maybe one way of looking at it is that, I mean, I do like, if I'm with someone that like you, for example, that I feel like I'm on a similar wavelength with, um, one-on-one or maybe even a small group. That's, that makes me feel better. It gives me a boost.

[00:34:00] But when I'm a bunch of around a bunch of random people, like in a crowd or whatever, that drains me very quickly. You get re-energized in certain ways by certain things. And that is not one of them. Whereas other people might, it might be just the opposite. They go to like a concert and that actually makes them feel connected and alive. That would not be Steve. No, my, my dad is quite a bit more extroverted than me. I mean, he'll go to the restaurant or bar or casino and, and, and that's great.

[00:34:26] It's just like what, but what's stimulating for a lot of people tends to be kind of overwhelming for me. But a lot, it's interesting. Yeah. Right. And what's kind of hard about it is it sounds like what's stimulating for a lot of people is the social stuff. Sort of like you were saying earlier, it's a trap. Yeah. And it is. So it's no wonder that I spend a lot of times listening to podcasts like yours because it allows that kind of, um, what's the word I've heard before. It's almost like parasocial relationships. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:34:53] Now we have to be really careful with wording here because I am very proud of my work and there are not a lot of podcasts like mine. However, there are a lot of podcasts and I'm sure you listen to some other ones. Are they all kind of in the same domain or you also, you just bounce around some true crimes, some fictions and this. Yeah. Most of my, yeah, I, I listened to just a lot of stuff relating to, um, like, philosophy, psychology, spirituality, but there are a couple.

[00:35:21] I mean, you're, I mean, I love what you're doing because you're, I, you're giving a voice to people like us, but there are some other mental health podcasts that I listen to occasionally. There's one called Before You Kill Yourself. That's a very well-known one. Yeah. By Leo Flowers. Yeah. Yeah. That's pretty popular. Yeah. I enjoy listening to him. That's cool. And there's another one called, uh, psychology of depression and anxiety with Dr. Scott Eilers.

[00:35:47] I mean, I've heard, I've actually heard some people say, well, I've never felt discouraged or depressed. What's crazy. Well, and I'm not, and I don't want to imply that. I mean, I want to take, I want to take them at their word, but if that's true, I mean, I just, it's like, I have no conceptual framework of what that's like. A hundred percent. Well, one, we don't know if they're being honest, but let's say they are right. Let's say they are. And let's even, let's even assume that they're using those words similarly. Like they mean the same thing.

[00:36:16] Talk about feeling like an alien. We are, yes, I guess technically we're both homo sapiens, but that's about it. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, you know what, Sean, I think, I think a lot of us, you know, I'm listening to you and the other people on your podcast. I mean, I think a lot of people are really struggling right now there. I have an online guy I read who had a post a couple of years ago that really caused me to think.

[00:36:42] He said, he said, I said, he said, if there was a way to die that was pain free and guaranteed to work, he said, I think a billion people would be gone next month. A billion is like, how many are there in the world? Like eight and a half billion now. Right. That's one of the reasons the pink and purple pill question evolved into what it is, is I actually don't know a number, but it's way higher than I think most people think. I think it's silly not to talk about it. I think it's silly not to talk about most things, but you know, I think, you know, a lot of people disagree with me on that.

[00:37:10] I also wonder, you said there's a lot of unhappy people now. Is it that there are more unhappy people now or are there just more vehicles for us to know that there are unhappy people, that there have always been this many as a percentage unhappy people? You know, it's interesting you mentioned that because years ago, I remember having a conversation with my mom and she grew up in the, I mean, she was born in 49. She grew up with a kid in the fifties. And I remember her saying to me, she said, you know, people made the 1950s out like it was some idyllic paradise.

[00:37:40] And she said, you know, we had, there were a lot of problems going on. Then people just swept them under the rug better. Of course. Right. Right. So we could apply that to a lot of things like autism comes up and that's a whole other thing. But like, are there more people that are artistic or just do we have better ways of diagnosing it? That's so in other words, that means a hundred years ago, there might not have been fewer. They just didn't have a name for it. And people struggled without a name and their life was probably really fucking hard. Yeah. Yeah. I've heard that. I've heard that said that, you know, maybe our diagnostic tools are just better.

[00:38:09] So something for some things, but there are other things that like our environment is worse and that causes problems. So there are upticks or increases in certain physical or non-physical conditions that it's not just that we can diagnose them better. It's that there's just more of it. Suicide. Suicide, I don't know. Yeah. It makes you wonder, I mean, how much of it is genetics and how much is our environment? I mean, I do have, I mean, I do have mental health issues on both sides of my family. So. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:38:38] You were, you know, like your dad said, we all have opportunities, but the starting line is in different places and yours was where it was. I want to gauge something here though. So you have been ideating on and off to different sort of levels or frequencies or for decades. decades. You said at times you came close enough to do some stockpiling or have these incidents. What's the closest you came? Well, I mean, that's, I mean, I think what I told you is actually about as close as I came. I mean, I haven't, my story isn't, isn't as dramatic.

[00:39:08] No, it's just your story. Yeah. I mean, that's about as close as it's come where it's like, I'm, I'm, I'm coming up with a plan here. Yeah. Yeah. But just so we're clear, I don't find it to be a better conversation or more important conversation. If you had come closer, that's not my goal. I'm just trying to figure out like, all right, what was Steve's, what's Steve's life like? I mean, I don't take a large dose, but it's like, I take a, I take a cocktail pills at night just so I can sleep. It's because if I don't, then I don't sleep. That's been the case for the last several years.

[00:39:35] And it's like, well, I don't know how much damage it's doing on the inside, but I don't care. Oh, right. A hundred percent. Yeah. I agree. Like you have to sleep. And sometimes I think, well, do I want to take us, you know, take a bigger dose tonight and see what happens? And I tend to back out of that, but I think, well, at least I know I have it on hand if it gets to that unbearable point again. Do you, so you, you made it clear you're worried about it when your cat and your dad die. Yes. Because you are, and it's not just like loneliness, it's practical.

[00:40:03] When you use the word, I have to probably choose between death or homelessness. So that's a, like, that's the kind of just daily stress knowing that is going to happen at some point. Well, I know it keeps you up at night sometimes without the meds, but I mean, how do you navigate that? When I'm being a little less panicky about it? Well, I actually have been trying to build a little like micro camper and part of the garage because I figure, well, at least I'll have a little bit of shelter if I get to that point.

[00:40:30] I'm not, if I know what's going to happen, there's at least I can maybe do some prep work now and until I wait until it becomes a total crisis. I know there's a part of me that just thinks, well, maybe I should just hit the road and just keep going until I'm dead. But what would that look like? Well, there are times I think, well, if I don't want to, if I don't want to kill myself, maybe I should just go out and have like one big, one big adventure until I'm. Like you get in the camper and you just drive around North America, there's going to come a point when you don't have enough money to fill up the tank. Mm-hmm.

[00:40:59] Like I'm not trying to be weird about it, but are you just going to like lay down and just not like, what are you going to do? Yeah. Well, why not? Just lay out and just lay down and just go somewhere where it's beautiful. And I mean, it's hard to kill yourself, man. It is. It is that again, that's another way that's not really, sometimes I wish that pink and purple pill really existed. Well, this is a perfect transition. If I had it and I gave it to you and you went to sleep and didn't wake up and there was no pain. And if you want to include the fact that nobody knows it's a suicide, we're talking on a mid May. What would you do with that pill right now?

[00:41:29] Well, I mean, I wouldn't, I certainly wouldn't take it right now, especially, you know, I mean, I still have family and I don't want to give that up, but I wouldn't, I wouldn't get rid of it either. I definitely hold on to it. Till you run out of gas. Till I run out of gas. Kind of makes me think about a memoir title there, but I don't know something about that. You know, you know where my brain goes. So when did you find the podcast? How long has it been? I think I found you a little over a year ago. Was that a recommended thing or you put the word suicide in there? I feel like there's a difference. Oh yeah.

[00:41:59] I put the word suicide in there just to see what was out there. And I came across you and I started listening and it was, it's been really eyeopening listening, hearing you and, and hearing your other guests. I feel like the guests are more eyeopening than I am. But you have a story too, don't you? I mean, maybe you talked about it in previous episodes, but you've, you've struggled too. Oh my God. Yeah, for sure. For sure. For sure. I've never tried to kill myself, but like definitely an ideator. Lonely. I'm super functional. I don't know why I said that. Like I also drink a lot.

[00:42:29] So that's the way, that's one of the main ways I cope. But like, I will have this interview. I will go to the gym. I might see somebody later. I will take a dance class. I will do this podcast. I will do things. I will be productive, quote unquote, but I am an unhappy, angry human being. I don't think that will change. I say, I try to do things about it so that I can at a minimum relieve the pain of that.

[00:42:53] And maybe one day it even fades away some, so I'm less angry and less unhappy, but you know this and you get to middle age, you know, yes, the optimists would say it's never too late, but there does get that feeling of like, it ain't changing too fucking much. Yeah. You know, that's the thing, Sean. I mean, I think it's a lot easier to tell someone when they're, and again, I do not mean to diminish what a lot of young people are going through. I feel sorry for the society a lot of our young people are growing up in.

[00:43:22] But to some extent, I mean, it is when someone's in their teens or twenties, it's easier to pass off the idea, well, you know, you're still young, things will turn around. Right. And knowing when you get to be middle aged like us, it's like a lot of things just don't feel possible anymore. 100%. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I could give you a long list. I'm sure you've experienced it of examples, but yeah. And you're reminded of it all the time, if nothing else in your body. I don't. Yeah. I mean, I'm still in decent health, but I tell you, I mean, I just don't have the

[00:43:51] energy I did just a few years ago. You know, there's a lot of people out there being like, fuck you, middle aged white man. I know. I know. And I'll be honest. I mean, I am privileged in some ways. I don't deny that. I've heard someone else say this. It's like sometimes people say to you, you know, well, you shouldn't be so unhappy. Other people have it worse. I mean, by that logic, you could also say, well, you shouldn't be so happy because other people have it better than you. You could easily make that argument. It's also going to be in that book that I don't write, Dumb Things to Never Say.

[00:44:19] It's going to be a really long book, but it's really just going to be like, it's not like exposition. It's just going to be like, don't say this. And then a long list. And I think each has its own page and it's going to be a long book because I got so many of them. Ironically, of all people, I don't have a title for it yet. If you want to help me out, I don't have a title for it. For your book or my book? Well, we haven't gotten to yours yet, though. I like the running out of gas idea. Yeah, it's not my memoir, though. So we're talking about two different things.

[00:44:46] I don't have a memoir, but the book about all the stupid shit you just don't ever say to people who are in any kind of pain or maybe even ever, period. But I'm not going to make it a book. Instead of book, it's more like a list. But I mean, I've got so many things that it would feel like a book. I have to think about what a good title. I'll have to return the favor and figure out what a good title for your book might be. Yeah, no, right. I would appreciate that. And if there's a listener out there who has an idea for it, the first thing that comes

[00:45:15] to mind is like, dumb shit you should never say. But I hate the word should, so I got to get rid of it there. But like, that's the premise of it. And some people are making it. Well, there are sometimes or certain moments or certain people when it does, it is. No, no, no, no. The only things that go in this book is the shit. You don't have to worry about it. You never say it. It's like the beauty of the Ten Commandments, whether you believe it or not. No matter what you think the reason is you can justify killing, you can't. That's why the Ten Commandments are so powerful. I don't have, there's no gray area.

[00:45:44] I'm going to give you the Ten Commandments, but it's going to be more like a thousand. Now, there's irony that it's coming from me. I think so because I just made it clear I'm an angry man. And that, you know, influences my lens and my way of navigating the world. But you just hear so much dumb shit. And I actually think, is there ever a time that that has ever helped anyone? Literally ever. It might have made the person who said it feel a little better for a moment. Yeah. So a lot of times it's sometimes silence is the best answer, you know?

[00:46:14] Is that the name of the book? Did Steve just come up with the name of the book? Well, now I'm going off on a more humorous tangent. I think it was Alice Roosevelt, who was Teddy Roosevelt's daughter, had once said, if you don't have anything nice to say, come and sit by me. Oh, I like that. There's options, baby. This is going to be self-published. Yeah, you've got it. Publishers will not have any interest in this book. This is going to be one of these self-published books that three people buy on Amazon. That's it.

[00:46:40] I was trying to think of the guy who wrote that book, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance. Yeah, I forgot who that was. I read that back in the day. I think his book was rejected by over 100 publishers before it got accepted and it became bestseller. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You've got to have a lot of resilience, man. I don't have that. I can't deal with it either, man. It's too much. It was a year ago, more or less, that you found it, but only about a few weeks ago that you reached out. What took you so long, Steve? I'm wondering about that. Why did it take me so long?

[00:47:10] It's like, well, do I have anything that really would be interesting to share? I wonder, do I have anything that any other listeners might resonate with? And I was just questioning. I'm always doubting myself. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Whether my story has anything worthwhile that other people could take from. But there must have been some little, at least tiny little change because you did email me. I'm trying to think what exactly. See, that's the thing. I feel like my short-term memory is.

[00:47:39] If I had to guess, here's what I'm thinking it is. It's just a guess. It was a particular episode and a particular person said something. You're like, oh, I think maybe I could talk to him. That very well might have been, but I have no idea which episode it was. It doesn't matter. But again, it's good to hear other people's stories and even for the ones that are quite different from mine. It's like I realized, yeah, I can see where someone would feel that way after they've been through what they've been through.

[00:48:08] I know you're pretty shy, as you've said, not super social. So I'm going to assume that nobody knows we're talking. No, I haven't told anybody. Now tell them, Dad. Nope. Does your father know his son's pain? I think he knows that I get a little depressed every now and then, but I'm always worried about him stressing over me. Yeah, right, right. Because he's got his own health issues. I don't want to make things any worse for him. Is that accurate what you just said?

[00:48:36] I get, quote, a little depressed once in a while or get a little depressed from time to time? I don't remember the exact. Well, I think from his perspective, I try hard not to act depressed. Acting depressed is different than being, no? Yeah, I think, well, let me rephrase that. I try hard to act like everything's okay. Do you think you're a good actor? You've got a lot of practice, Steve. You're probably pretty good.

[00:49:03] I think I can fake it reasonably well most of the time. Do you think the faking it takes a toll? Well, I guess I must because, like I said, I won't say I feel exhausted, but I'm pretty tired most of the time. Do you have a therapist or a counselor? No. When do you get the meds? I stopped taking meds a few years back because I had jobs that didn't provide health coverage, so I had to get my own health insurance.

[00:49:31] My doctor says, well, you need to come for a follow-up appointment every six months to get your prescription renewed. And I take the script to the pharmacy. The pharmacy says, well, we take that plan, but you get a better deal going to this pharmacy. And then I change jobs. My plan would change. I'm sick of playing this effing game. I stopped just because it was like, this is just too complicated for my brain. And for other people, and I'm thinking of one person in my family in particular who functions very differently in the world, they just don't get it. I'm like, well, you have to just be me for a while to understand it.

[00:50:00] Because it's like all it really took, Sean, was like one or two phone calls. You would have been able to get an appointment and get the meds. I'm like, you don't fucking understand. I don't understand just how a lot of people navigate so much of the modern world now. And it seems like everything in our society is so competitive now. It's like whether it's housing, whether it's jobs, whether it's finding a partner. Everything is hard. We live in a dog-eat-dog world, and I just can't compete in it. But was it always that way?

[00:50:25] Like that same kind of thing I asked earlier where we were talking about, it was always that way, but we didn't have the tools to diagnose it or be aware of it. But I actually think this is not the same thing. I actually think it is different. You and I are, I think, at the age where we still remember sort of the analog world that we grew up in back in the 70s, 80s, early 90s. And, you know, you were more limited.

[00:50:46] I mean, now you can see like every job opening across the country, every house for sale across the country, everyone around the world looking for a partner. It's like, oh, yeah, so the access to the information. But also, but also, look, and I'm not an economist by any stretch, but like things are more expensive in real dollars by a lot. No, but that's a huge shift in a culture. It's not. It's easy to think, well, it's just the United States. Actually, it's happening across many nations around the world right now.

[00:51:15] So it's not like we're the only ones. When you're at your lowest points, do you have people you can talk with? Part two to that question is, do you talk with them? There are a couple of people I talk with. This is going to, this sounds kind of weird. One of them is a woman I met a couple of years ago. She's seeing another guy. He's a great guy. But she's kind of like a good platonic friend. And she likes to say, think of me as the bossy older sister you never had.

[00:51:44] Everyone needs one of them. Yes, absolutely. And we met three years ago, actually, I think it was on one of the online forums that talked about suicide. The one on Reddit. So she was really struggling a lot, too. But she's just an incredibly empathetic, thoughtful, just intelligent person to talk with when I'm going through these phases. Do you think she enjoys your company? Well, we always find stuff to talk about.

[00:52:13] Yeah, she lives in Texas. So we talk on the phone pretty regularly. All right. So if we were going back and we were in those analog days, it wouldn't be as easy to have a friend like that. Absolutely not. That's another way to look at it. Yeah, you know, it's a double-edged sword. I mean, yeah, the online world can create a lot of loneliness. But every now and then you might find someone you really resonate with who's going through the same crap you are. Yeah. You said something about church earlier. Are you a believer? Do you believe in God?

[00:52:42] I believe in God, but I'd say my faith is more complicated now. I used to do lay ministry work up until about three years ago. And then I just think all my grief and all my midlife crisis issues created a faith crisis for me. So it's not, my faith isn't as simple and solid as it used to be. I guess you could say I'm more of a spiritual nomad or religiously homeless, maybe. Maybe.

[00:53:12] Religiously homeless. I mean, I'm still interested in faith and spirituality and so forth. It's just, my beliefs just are, I'm still trying to figure out what I believe now. Do you think that the universe or God or call it what you want punishes people for killing themselves? It's interesting. A lot of people talk about in the Bible about the two people who killed themselves, King Saul and then Judas Iscariot, the disciple who betrayed Jesus.

[00:53:38] And they were both seen as people who were, whether you want to say evil or not right with God, however you want to phrase it. Yeah. But then I think, but then there's the story of Samson and Delilah where Samson brings down the temple of the gods. I'm trying to remember the exact story. But anyway, his, I mean, his death was a suicide, considered a suicide, you could argue. And he was considered righteous before God. So. No, there's no clear answer, huh? Yeah, there's no clear answer. Well, let me ask you this.

[00:54:08] It doesn't seem like you know how you're going to die. Not that any of us do. But some people have a pretty good sense if they're planning on killing themselves. Other than the possibility of you getting the disease that runs in your family. Yeah, you know, there's something else. I remember years and years ago, there was this website that, I don't think it's active anymore, but there was a website that claimed to predict when you were going to die. So I put my, I asked it, when am I going to die? What did it say?

[00:54:35] Well, I put my name and birthday and I'm trying to think what else I put in, but I very clearly remember what it said. It said I was supposed to die in July of 2033. You got to let me know if that's true. Well, you'll be dead, so. Well, I won't be able to let you know if that happens. Now, the other question is, then some people would never want to know. I guess I was at a point where I was curious and I, maybe some people would say I was willing to forfeit my free will to find out. I always ask people about myths or misconceptions they want to dispel.

[00:55:02] Well, so what's one or two that come to mind that you want to dispel that you think are just simply not true about? But, you know, I say this like, it's not just suicide. It could be around thinking about suicide. It could be about grief or loss in your case because that's a huge part of your life, especially more recently. Sometimes I think we all think that we can just muscle on through, that we can handle whatever life throws at us. For a long time, I was like that. I wanted to think that I could, you know, any difficulties that came up were manageable and that I could handle them.

[00:55:32] You know, I've heard people say, God won't give you more than you can handle. I felt like there were times I felt like I had way more than I could handle. I was on the verge of my breaking point. And I think we all have our breaking points, whether we want to admit them or not. It's just a matter of what it is. And some, you know, you don't know what you don't know until it happens to you. Right. Which is the birthplace of empathy, I think, in a way, because it's like you just don't know what people are going through. Yeah. And I'll be honest. I mean, you mentioned you mentioned the drinking. I mean, I mentioned the THC.

[00:56:02] I mean, there was a time where I wasn't so compassionate and understanding to people who were struggling with alcohol or drug addiction. But now I totally I totally get it now. It's like an instant chemical vacation. I mean, the bigger the bigger challenge is can you have empathy if you don't get it? I think some people for some people it's easier to picture themselves like, you know, if I was undergoing similar trials or circumstances. Right. What what measures would I resort to in order to feel better? You know, I used to work with a guy who was a drug rehab counselor.

[00:56:31] I think I asked him once about how I was able to maintain such compassion, especially for some of the people who are so difficult to work with. And he and I remember him looked at me and he said, when people are kids, no one says I want to grow up to be a drug addict. That's not what they aspire to. And they just they were undergoing some sort of crisis or trauma or something that they couldn't deal with. And that was the easiest way to deal with it for that. That's a good counselor, probably. Yeah, he was. I think he was pretty good. What else do you want to share, Steve, man? I've enjoyed the conversation. Yeah. Likewise.

[00:57:00] I mean, it's just I admire you because I mean, in many ways, this is still a taboo thing to talk about in some circles. And wait, wait, wait. In what circles is it not taboo? It's not something you bring up in casual conversation at a party. You think, oh, I have the urge to kill myself. I mean, yeah, probably not too often, though. You know, I think about I think maybe one of your other guests mentioned it or maybe you mentioned it.

[00:57:23] Leo Tolstoy, to paraphrase him about how happy people are all like unhappy people are unhappy in their own individual ways. I would say happy people are boring. That just made my day. It's cool if you're happy. Don't get me wrong. I just think you're kind of boring. I definitely gravitate towards people who are not happy. There's just there's an edge that they're missing sometimes. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:57:51] Well, then I tried to read some more philosophy and there's a quote by the German existentialist philosopher Arthur Schopenhauer, where he talks about how life is a pendulum that swings back and forth between pain and boredom. Like, damn, this is why I do drugs. I don't, by the way. But I could so easily fall back into that. Yeah. Are the Sean's and the Steve's of the world getting quoted by anybody out there? You know, you never know what's going on.

[00:58:19] And, you know, I think I think you're you've made a great impact with this podcast. I hope you keep it going for a long time, brother. I am going to try. And I do say this with all sincerity. This is not a podcast without people like Steve in Toledo, Ohio or somewhere in Ohio who choose to email me, schedule an appointment, show up to the meeting and then talk openly. And honestly, then it's just it would be nothing. So thank you.

[00:58:44] And hey, if and the off chance that one of your listeners wants to connect, I mean, I'm open to that here. 607 on a Wednesday on a Friday night. So you are ready to go out and rave? Nah. There's a funny saying. Where do I read it? About how when you're young, you sneak out of your house to go to a party. And when you when you're older, you sneak out of a party to go home. So real quick, back to the memoir out of guests. Is it enough or is that just sort of we're starting with an idea?

[00:59:14] Well, and I maybe an idea. And I thought another idea, another title I would think of would be like me, my own worst enemy. Why would you why would you choose that one? I tell you, my self-confidence and and and self-esteem is just in the toilet. I mean, I think I think a lot of us who are struggling with with with suicide thoughts and all that. I mean, I think we there's a certain amount of self-loathing and self-hatred we deal with. Huge amounts, I'm sure, for many people.

[00:59:40] And I sometimes just look at myself and think, well, you know, I feel like I just kind of failed at a lot of things in life. So, you know, I guess I guess I must be shit because of it. You know, sometimes I think not that I failed at a lot of things at life. I just think more like I failed at life. I got I got an F in life. It would D minus it actually maybe even be stronger. F is just so extreme. It's like, you know, you didn't totally get. But a D minus is like, all right, there was a little bit of this and a little bit of effort and a little bit of this.

[01:00:09] Not that we have to get all memoir centric here, but D minus at life. This is interesting. In junior high, we in in the guy's locker room, we actually had a place called the Wall of Shame. And we would like post all the quizzes and tests that we got F's on for everyone. Well, I like talking to you, Steve. I'm glad we connected. This this has been a wonderful conversation, Sean.

[01:00:34] And again, thank you and blessings to you and for just letting people like us share our our world and our lives. And I mean, I say feel free to hit me up if you need someone to talk to. I appreciate that invite very much on your kind words. I want to sincerely share with you that I have enjoyed your company and I've enjoyed your yours and I've enjoyed hearing other people's stories. And I really would like to say to a lot of people are struggling. It's like, you know, there are a lot of people.

[01:01:03] You're not the only one struggling. You're not the only one struggling. I mean, just because you see people in public and they seem OK doesn't mean they're not going through a lot of stuff. And if you're seeing people in private, you're probably doing something illegal. So get the fuck out of their house. That's just another. I'm just giving you some words of wisdom. Like just just stalking leave. You don't know. You don't know at any given moment how anyone feels.

[01:01:26] And like that person said, whether it's a billion or a million or a hundred million or, you know, that pill, if it existed, how many people would check out? It's like, who knows? Thanks, man. I'm going to go. My day is going to consist. I'm a couple hours behind you. So my day is going to consist of actually this Friday yoga class that I like. And as I shared with you, I got a I got a few bourbons to kick back later. Yeah, man. I hope the rest of your evening and your weekend is nice. And I appreciate you talking again, man. John, I hope you have a good weekend as well.

[01:01:55] And thanks again so, so very much. All right, man. Take care. All right. As always, thanks so much for listening and all of your support. Special thanks to Steve in Ohio. Thanks, Steve. If you are a suicide attempt survivor or ideator, you live with suicide and you'd like to talk, I'd love to talk with you. Please reach out. It's real simple. Hello at suicidenoted.com. If you'd like to help us out, there's a few things you can do. You can rate or review us on Apple.

[01:02:24] It's a little trickier on Spotify, but it's doable. You can also make a financial contribution, a tax deductible, of course. The link is everywhere. It starts with donorbox.com slash all a bunch of other stuff. You'll find it on the website or on Apple or Spotify or wherever. I appreciate your help. Even if the only thing you ever do is listen to this episode or part of this episode, even once, thanks. And if you listen more than once, thanks more. I appreciate it. I'm glad or I certainly hope you're getting something out of it.

[01:02:53] And that is all for this week's episode. Stay strong. Do the best you can. I will talk to you soon.