Stacey in Australia 🇦🇺

[00:00:00] I lost everything. Not only did I lose my marriage and some of my community, I lost my mind and I lost my body and I nearly lost my life more times than I'd like to count.

[00:00:13] Hey there, my name is Sean and this is Suicide Noted. On this podcast I talk with suicide attempt survivors so that we can hear their stories. Every year around the world millions of people try to take their own lives and we almost never talk about it.

[00:00:47] We certainly don't talk about it enough and when we do talk about it many of us including me, we're not very good at it. So one of my goals with this podcast is to have more conversations and hopefully better

[00:00:56] conversations with attempt survivors in large part to help more people in more places feel a little less shitty and a little less alone. If you are a suicide attempt survivor and you'd like to talk, please reach out. Hello at SuicideNoted.com on Facebook or Twitter

[00:01:11] at suicidenoted. Of course, you can reach out for any reason. I'm really curious to hear your thoughts, your ideas, answer questions, so please don't hesitate. And if you check the show notes, you can learn more about the podcast including our membership and I want to thank our members.

[00:01:28] And of course, I want to thank anybody who's listened and our guests all fantastic, amazing. I can go on with the adjectives, but I won't. Thank you. Finally, we are talking about suicide on this podcast.

[00:01:40] We don't hold back. So please take that into account before you listen or as you listen. But I do hope you listen because there's so much to learn. Today, I'm talking with Stacy. Stacy lives in Australia and she is a suicide attempt survivor. Hey Stacy. Hello.

[00:01:59] Where are you exactly? Down under in Hobart, mostly down the bottom of Tasmania, the capital of Tasmania. Oh, no way. You live in Tasmania? I live in Tasmania. Yes. The art of the planet. Can we just talk about where you live for the whole podcast?

[00:02:15] Well, if you want to. I don't know if I'm the best travel agent, but I'll give it a go. I didn't even know people live there. I just thought it was a bunch of Tasmanian devils running around.

[00:02:24] It's fairly savage. We have about, I think approximately about 500,000 in Tassie. God, I probably got that wrong, but it's around that point. So it's really not a lot of people. Absolutely stunning country. Stunning, stunning island. We're so fortunate. But we're not here to talk about that.

[00:02:44] They go curveball. Not here really. I mean, it might play some part. So we are talking primarily about suicide on this podcast. Yeah. Not a super popular subject to talk about. Absolutely not. Absolutely not. And even for those that are willing to have the conversation,

[00:03:03] there is nowhere to have it. It's a scary topic for a lot of people because it brings up vulnerabilities that we're not prepared to front. We're not prepared to ask the question of

[00:03:13] ourselves and we're not prepared to face other people having that question, which is insane in my view. It makes me wonder why that is. Not why you think it's insane, why people have such a hard time with it. There must be some reason.

[00:03:27] I think there's a couple of... Well, for me, there's a couple of reasons. Religion has a big part to play in it. That dictatorship of what we should do with our lives and God giving us something and we should honour it without the real consequences of what life

[00:03:43] really is. Life is brutal. There's something that we can't conceive, this almighty God to tell us how we should live it just seems utterly atrocious. So for me, I think part of it is

[00:03:57] we get shut down by belief systems. That's not to say that people shouldn't believe in God, but I do think it's an impact. I think fundamentally, it's an emotion and we're so well trained to not feel the hard emotions and our freedoms have been taken away. Our autonomy

[00:04:15] over our life has been taken away. The autonomy to say when to end it. We don't have the autonomy to begin it, obviously. But from the day we're born, we have the ability to do whatever we want

[00:04:28] to do with it. One of those is to end it or not to end it on our own terms. I'm going to make an assumption that you are not religious. No, I'm not. Not that I have anything against religion, but I've got a history with it.

[00:04:45] Figured that might be the case. But that's not the same question as believing in God. One could believe in a God of sorts and not be religious, right? I think spirituality is the most amazing

[00:04:57] thing that any of us could possess. Spirituality is a connection and it doesn't have to be with a singular God. It can be with anything. It can be a connection to the ground we walk on. I think

[00:05:08] connecting to something keeps us alive. It helps sustain our life. But I don't believe for me that looks like believing in a God, in a singular God, just because everybody else does. Got a lot of God-fearing folk in this country. Oh, yes, I've heard. I've heard.

[00:05:26] I'm not even sure a lot of them are that God-fearing. I think there's something else going on. I think politics, power and religion, it's like the three where you've got God, the Holy Spirit and Jesus. I think you've got politics, power and religion. They kind of all

[00:05:41] sit the same. But that's okay. And look, totally not against anyone that chooses that as part of their life. I think if you can live it and live happily and not in everybody else's faces.

[00:05:52] To each your own. I guess unless you're hurting people, I think there might be a problem. But all right, that's a different podcast. I do this all the time because I apparently want to

[00:06:00] have seven podcasts, not one. But this stuff does, for lack of a better word, bleed into just about every area. Some people tend to not want anyone to hear them when they're talking about this or

[00:06:10] anything else maybe. So I imagine no one's around listening to you right now. No, I've got my kids are in bed, but they know that I'm doing this. I'm pretty upfront with my kids. I don't tell them all the nitty gritty, but I'm upfront with

[00:06:22] them and they know that I was doing this. But would you believe it's 1230 at night here? Oh shit. How many kids? I've got six, but I've got five living with me. Wow. They know their mother has dealt with some stuff.

[00:06:36] Oh yes. It's been a rocky road for a few years, but we've come out the other end of it. And they saw their mother very, very, very sick. And they saw their mother in hospital after however many attempts I've had. So there has been reasonably open communication.

[00:06:53] Certainly not with my younger ones. I've got my youngest who's just turned 10. When I was at my sickest, he was very young. And so there was an innocence there that we had to really be precious

[00:07:02] about, but he knew I was very, very sick. But as my other ones, they've got a pretty good picture of it. Plus my family, my mother took her own life when she was quite sick. And so I've always

[00:07:15] been open with that. She was an incredibly unstable human being. So it's sort of a rocky childhood with her. And then she ended up with six brain aneurysms and multiple brain operations. Then she ended up with epilepsy. So she was an incredibly fierce woman, fiercely independent.

[00:07:33] And then when she was having all of these health issues, obviously she lost a hell of a lot of independence and pretty much lost her mind in some regards. And we couldn't look after her. They

[00:07:44] said, look, let's put her in an old people's home. And she was not having a bar of that. So she basically stopped eating. Her body put itself into epileptic seizure. And we ended up,

[00:07:57] after many years of the fight, we ended up with a really good doctor that said, look, clearly she is doing this. She doesn't want to be around anymore. Let's just let her slip away.

[00:08:07] So there was a little bit of medical assistance, if you can say that, but not assistance in that they gave her anything, but assistance in let's let her go. How old were you when she died? 28. She died two weeks after my second son was born.

[00:08:22] So where do we start, Stacey? After listening to all of the people that have come onto your podcast, the logical place is whether I was suicidal all of my life and absolutely not. I was actually

[00:08:34] quite the opposite. Oldhood was pretty intense. There was a lot of insane stuff go on, but I don't know. I used to call it my guardian angel. She would always get me out of it and I'll be

[00:08:45] like, yeah, let's go. Life. And then I had my mother in the background going, I'm going to kill myself. I'm going to kill myself. So I knew about suicide, but it just didn't float into my

[00:08:54] conscious. I was just this person that was always on the go. And then I went to uni. I did a couple of degrees. I'm a musician. I then got married and then had a ton of kids. And in 10 years,

[00:09:06] I got married, six kids, and they all had various different eye operations. So like 20 eye operations. My mother died. I had a couple of other friends die. Towards the end of that 10

[00:09:16] years, I had a couple of really serious traumas. And me being me, I was just like, you know what? I'm cool. I'm so cool. I'm cool bananas. And I got to a point after that 10 years of just that

[00:09:28] intensity where I broke and it wasn't a thought process or anything. I just remember it was 2016 New Year's Day. And we were in possibly one of the most stunning places in Tasmania up at East

[00:09:41] Coast, Coles Bay. Gorgeous white sand, long beaches, mountains to go and climb, and the bluest, bluest, bluest water. And we were camping on that beach. Woke up. I hadn't been feeling

[00:09:54] mentally very great, but I was like, I'm going to get through this. It's fine. Woke up that day and I just remember it. The calmest I'd felt. I just wanted to die. I did not want to exist any longer.

[00:10:06] And it was the most startling thing. How can you do that when I've got the most amazing place with my six kids, my husband at the time we're now separated? How could I think that?

[00:10:17] About six months later, I went to the doctor and I said, I don't know what's wrong with me. I'm exhausted. Clearly six kids in 10 years. So I had six in nine and a half years.

[00:10:27] And obviously the traumas had just built up. And I just looked at her and said, I just want to die. I had no plans. I just knew that I was terrified. And she said,

[00:10:36] look, you need to go to hospital. Do you think you needed to go to a hospital? I needed something when I hit the doors of that hospital that destroyed my life. So let's pause for a moment if we can. This is not me constantly saying shitty things

[00:10:53] about hospitals, but it is interesting to hear, particularly when I talk to people that aren't in North America, that it's often a similar experience. Of course you needed something. So when you say you woke up that day, your family, the beautiful place, you didn't want to live,

[00:11:11] but you were calm. You also said, and I think it was at that same time, you broke. What does that mean you broke? I hadn't been very well for about a year and a half,

[00:11:21] but I always had my push. So I knew that I was probably depressed and I was hugely traumatized. But I had power to power through it. I did everything that I could. I kept on top of my

[00:11:34] business with my kids and I tried to keep my marriage running. We were trying to buy a house and I was trying to work and I exercised. I worked really hard to get myself mentally back without

[00:11:46] having any intervention because I'd never been on antidepressants or anything in my life. I'd never had any intervention. No, I tried to go to a psychologist and that was ridiculous. Once that day, it was like something snapped in my head. It's like none of this is working.

[00:12:02] It feels like you're broken when everything that you do, that you've researched for good mental health and everything like that doesn't work. Then suddenly your brain says it's time to go. There's a difference the way I hear it. I'm really, really, for lack of a better word,

[00:12:18] exhausted, done trying versus there's a little difference between that and wanting to die. Is there a difference for you or is it really the same? I think it's a bit more spiritual level than just being I'm exhausted, so I'm just going to

[00:12:31] take my life. I know exhaustion. Six kids and those little buggers just didn't sleep. But when your entire body just feels like it's completely given up the ghost on you. The other part,

[00:12:44] I was not the kind of depressed person that just laid in bed and couldn't possibly get out. It was like my whole body, my mind, my everything was continuing to go fast forward and I had no control over it as well. Wow.

[00:12:56] It's terrifying. It just got more terrifying as I got connected to a psychiatrist. What you just said, that's what you're going through. There's probably other people that have gone through stuff like that in the world. You had the courage to get help. When you did,

[00:13:09] from the words you shared before I cut you off, I'm really good at doing that, you got sent to a place that made things worse. What does that do to the psyche?

[00:13:18] I don't even know if I've got the words to really truly describe what it does to the psyche. It has fundamentally changed who I am and I know that anything we go through does change us through time. This destroyed an innocence in me about life and about people

[00:13:38] and about trust, the inconceivable nature of having innocent trust broken when you're, how old was I? 37. Not just that, I lost everything. Not only did I lose my marriage

[00:13:50] and some of my community, I lost my mind and I lost my body and I nearly lost my life more times than I'd like to count. This all starts in 2016. What happens in that hospital? It wasn't the instantaneous crunch of

[00:14:05] the doors behind you, everything broke. I went in there in the belief because that's what you do when you're innocent, when you go into these systems, particularly the mental health system, fundamentally a fucked up system. Sorry, am I allowed to swear?

[00:14:21] Yeah, sure. What we are taught through every form of media, through everybody's mouth is trust the mental health system. I think the one that really got me and has probably damaged probably the rest of my life is I care for you. I know what's best

[00:14:39] for you. I care for you. You are so sick. The psychiatrist that I was under nearly killed me that many times just by negligence, but also that force of nature of clearly I don't know anything about myself. Right. How long were you in the hospital

[00:14:54] at that time? Do you recall? My first foray was in a private psych unit here. The glorified nursing home, it became known, went for about eight weeks. Was diagnosed, strangely enough, with an eating disorder and depression and anxiety. Now, I didn't have any belief that I

[00:15:15] had those things. I'm pretty certain that I knew I had anxiety because I was just so exhausted, but none of those existed in my life. I'd lost a significant amount of weight because

[00:15:26] I was severely stressed and exhausted and I'd worked just really hard to try and keep functional. I just lost a lot of weight. They were like, you look really little. You've got an eating disorder.

[00:15:36] Yeah. They put me on so much medication. They put me on antidepressants. I can't even remember what they are now. An antipsychotic and probably some sort of diazepam or Valium or any number of those.

[00:15:50] I wasn't sleeping. My brain changed as soon as I started taking that medication. Not in this huge psychosis, but that's when I started trying to take my life. I started self-harming really severely. Yeah. That was within just a couple of months. I think it must have been mid-2016,

[00:16:12] I went in and that was my first was eight weeks. I then came out of hospital and I was just a wreck still. I think I lasted about a week and then I was sent back in. That then was pretty much

[00:16:25] my existence until 2021. What exactly was your existence? Revolving door of hospitals, being put in involuntarily, putting myself in and just that for various different reasons. Do you have a specific number of how many times you actually

[00:16:43] tried to take your life during that time? I've lost count, but it would have to be 10 to 15 times, maybe a bit more. The first one was a couple of months after you came out. You

[00:16:53] were on the meds. Of course, the meds are there to help you and interestingly enough. The interesting part for me about this, the whole story of my attempts that most of them, I don't remember. They're in a dissociated or psychotic state. There's two that I distinctly

[00:17:08] remember and one of them was my deliberate. I just remember planning it. I remember doing it. That was 2019. It was a shit attempt, but I did it anyway. Are you going to talk about the first

[00:17:20] attempt after the hospital, the first hospital stay? My first attempt was a surreal thing because I knew I felt like dying. This is, I think, where the distinction you were talking about before.

[00:17:33] I felt like dying, but I had no plan to do it. I was just so scared of myself. I was so scared of my ability to be able to do it. I had no plan. I was in hospital when this happened. I was in

[00:17:48] the private clinic. Now, the private clinic is a voluntary clinic. It's not an involuntary one. They have to do that in our public system. I was told that I had to be there and that's the

[00:17:56] right thing you do when you've got six kids. You've got to be safe. Anyway, it was a normal day. We were doing day programs. I can't remember the class I was in. I was in the class and I started

[00:18:06] to feel just really unwell mentally, like just this darkness descend on my body. I'm like, oh shit. Okay. What have I been told to do when I start feeling this thing? What does my

[00:18:18] psychiatrist have me to do by this stage? Go and get a PRN. I think it was ceracle they would give me at the time. I went to the nurse's station and they handed me my lollies. I think it was 100

[00:18:29] milligrams of ceracle. It was high already. I was like, fine. Okay. Go back to my class. I don't know how much longer it passed, but then I saw myself get up out of the chair. Then I

[00:18:43] watched myself walk down the hallway into my room, which was a bit of a walk. Just watched it all happen. I had no control. There was no thought process. There was nothing there except me going,

[00:18:53] I'm walking down the hallway. Went into my room and then grabbed an article of clothing and I strangled myself with it until I passed out. Then was later found by, this is where the shame comes

[00:19:06] in for anyone that's done this. I was found by one of the cleaners. Was that then the nurses managed to get me awake and I was rushed to the public hospital. Imprisoned, I call it there for

[00:19:17] three weeks. I had no idea what I had done. It was shocking in the sense that when I hit the public hospital here, I had the psychiatrist say, how dare you do this? How dare you put your

[00:19:32] psychiatrist through this? I was just sitting there going, I don't even know what happened. Even if you did know what happened, I don't have words to describe how I feel about someone saying

[00:19:42] that to you in a hospital. Most of your attempts you don't remember. That one you remember, but you're out of body. Yeah. I really believe it was a reaction to the medication, to be completely honest. In between 2016, 2019, there were some attempts you don't remember.

[00:19:57] 2019, quote unquote, a shit attempt. Your words, not mine. Was that also by trying to strangle or hang yourself? No. All of the rest of my attempts have been overdosing. What was the most recent one?

[00:20:11] The most recent one was 2021. That was, I actually should be dead. My body, again, it was under a dissociated state. I walked myself to under this beautiful bridge that we have here and took medication. Then woke up in hospital. I'd gone into

[00:20:32] liver and kidney failure, complete failure. Then I spent 30 days in the ICU here with them saying, look, we actually have no idea whether you'll survive. It's likely that you'll die. We've got you on dialysis. Yeah, I spent three weeks in ICU, amazing nurses. Then they said,

[00:20:52] we can't do anything more for you. You're not critical care, but we'll probably move you to palliative care. Then they moved me to a general ward. I think it was like gastro. Within five days, I'd completely recovered. Then the psychiatrists got involved, involuntarily put

[00:21:09] me into the locked ward for no reason. I'd been talking with the psychologist there, but I was meant to die. Then suddenly I'm alive. I didn't know the problem was when I was

[00:21:22] coming out of the hospital. I didn't know where I was going to be living because we'd separated. It was decided that I needed to find somewhere else to live. I was trying to find somewhere else

[00:21:32] to live. I couldn't see my kids. I was sad. I wasn't exceptionally sad. I wasn't bawling my eyes out. I was just like, I'm sad. I don't know what to do. I don't want to be in hospital anymore.

[00:21:43] I need to get out. I've been in here for a month or a bit over a month. The psychiatrist went, no, he didn't even tell me. That's right. He said, how about we give you a few days just in

[00:21:54] it's like a mental health clinic just outside of the public hospital. It's really lovely. It's just kind of like that little phase where you can go from hospital to there. Then they'll

[00:22:08] just help you work out a few things. It's just a safe zone. I think it really works very well. It's a safe zone where they help get you some housing and that sort of stuff. I was like,

[00:22:18] cool potatoes. I don't want to go there, but you know what? We'll do it. I don't like where this is going. You know. I'm like, yep. Okay, let's do it. He said, we've got to wait two days

[00:22:29] to get you in there. Then the next half a day, I ended up with a sitter, a babysitter sitting in my room. They locked all the doors to the gastro clinic, the gastro ward, locked all the doors.

[00:22:43] Within 24 hours, I was in the locked unit. I had five security guards escort me. I'd only just started walking. I'd been laying down for a month, wasted. They put five security guards on me

[00:22:56] to take me to the lock ward. Because you're sad. You can't see your kids. I don't know what happened with your marriage, but that's split. That is an absolute expected response.

[00:23:08] Not just that, but I had come to the conclusion. I had 30 days to go, I'm going to die. I don't know whether you've known anything about liver and kidney. I was awake. They could not

[00:23:19] give me any pain medication. I was in intense pain for most of that time. They could not give me anything. I was awake 90% of the time in my own pain. I couldn't move attached to 3,000 machines

[00:23:33] and I'm lying there having to exist and figure out how do I live at the moment and know that I'm going to die sometime soon. Wow. Having my kids come in and having all my beautiful, gorgeous friends come in. I had to present to

[00:23:51] them as though it's okay. All of that go on. I wasn't given any grace to feel any emotions at the end of that without feeling safe. I know I'm not the only person either that has had that

[00:24:04] sort of stuff happen to them. Sure. Are you still wanting to end your life there? This is the tricky part. I didn't know I wanted to end my life. I'm diagnosed with severe dissociative disorder because of the trauma that

[00:24:19] was going on through the hospitals, the constant in and out, in and out of hospitals. I was given ECT. I was on medication. I was hurting myself. My marriage was breaking down. I became homeless.

[00:24:32] There was a lot go on. My brain just shattered. The person that you talk to now just was like, keep going forward, keep going forward, keep going forward. There was a part of my brain

[00:24:43] that didn't want to go forward. The more I fought to keep going, the harder it fought to take over and just end me. It's terrifying. I think 2019, that was a lot of the reason why I actually

[00:24:58] deliberately tried to end it because it wasn't because I didn't have friends. I had a beautiful support system. I was semi-homeless. I was living a week with my kids because my marriage had split

[00:25:09] up in 2019. I was awake inside the house with the kids because we kept them in the one central home. Then the second week when their father looked after them, I was couch surfing, living on the

[00:25:21] streets, all that sort of stuff. Outside of that, I had so much good stuff. My kids just adored me. I adored them. There was lots of things to plant me here except the fact that I was so terrified

[00:25:34] of myself. Because I was terrified of myself, I became terrified of everybody else. I could not see how I could live any longer if I could not be around myself, if that makes any sense whatsoever.

[00:25:47] As much sense as it's going to make. It's about five, six years of hell. Yes. I would choose hell over that any day if that makes any sense. In 2016, when you said you broke and then you went to a psychiatrist or psychologist and they sent

[00:26:05] you somewhere, what did Stacey need that you didn't get then? That may not have been the answer, but might've been better than what happened or how you were treated. Do you have any idea?

[00:26:15] I actually think all I needed was a really strong mother. I needed a woman to pick me up, to call the shit on my husband at the time and to call my shit, to sit my ass down and say,

[00:26:30] you got to face some stuff, bro. You think you're coping. You think you're doing it all. And you know what? You're doing a great job at some of the stuff, but I needed a solid woman.

[00:26:42] One of those old grandmas that just seems so wise. You walk into the room and there's that grandma and you're like, I'll do whatever you tell me to. Because not because of fear, but because of the wisdom that comes off of them.

[00:26:54] Right. Now we don't know what would have happened after that because we're just speculating. Something needed to change. To say, face it or deal with it. What does that look like? Maybe you

[00:27:05] go to a hospital. What does dealing with look like? Maybe it's meds. Maybe it's what? What is it? Because you were trying. I was trying. Meds got me and a destructive psychiatrist. I think that was the biggest crux. And then obviously down the track,

[00:27:21] when I wasn't coping, I started using some really bad behavior. So I started drinking. I think it was about 2018, 2019 because I just couldn't cope. But in 2016, a psychiatrist that took my power away and medication. Don't get me wrong. I think medication's there for the people that it

[00:27:39] works really well. I've had friends on some pretty big medication and it's changed their life in a really, really good fashion. I'd never been on it in any part of my life. I don't think I'd suffered

[00:27:49] from severe depression. I think I'd had drifting in and out of postnatal depression in my life, but I got myself out of it. That didn't require medication. And I think if for 37 years,

[00:28:00] I had gotten myself out of situations and out of bad mental states without the aid of chemicals, I think that that wasn't necessary at the time, not in the extreme amounts that I was getting. So looking back, you had anxiety. If we had to go by the book.

[00:28:17] Anxiety and adrenal fatigue. Do you still have those and or the disassociative? I still have dissociation and it can be severe, but not in the dangerous sense. But it does impact on my life every single day now. My brain has changed significantly. Anxiety,

[00:28:39] yes. But I think that's a nervous system issue. Like my nervous system needs help. I'm doing a thousand times better. Don't get me wrong. My life is incredible. I don't think I'm depressed at all. We all have a nervous system, obviously, and some of us can do a

[00:28:55] really good job at regulating it and others lose the ability of it just because, oh well, I think medication had a role to it because it took it all of that away. And obviously,

[00:29:07] the amount of overdoses and ECT also had a huge impact of that. And I think the other thing that's been a lasting impact of that time and particularly the overdoses is I've lost that

[00:29:21] magic to exist, I suppose. Like last week, I was having a really shocking week for whatever reason. No idea what it is. It comes on, which I've never had prior to being really sick in

[00:29:33] 2016. And it sits on top of you and it's like death just waiting. But I suppose it is a form of suicidality without any action to it, but it's so heavy. It's the heaviest weight because you're

[00:29:47] having to learn to exist with that and also still be around for my kids and try and figure out why is it like that now? That's another thing coming out the other side too. They're like,

[00:29:59] talk about it. Even the beautiful people that I have in my life are like, make sure you reach out. You can't. And there's multiple reasons for that. It's not just that people don't want to hear it.

[00:30:11] Nobody's got the time to hear it. Yeah. Nobody's got the time and it's not because they don't love you. It's not because they don't care about you any less. It's just their bucket is full already. We live in a world where we're all walking around with full buckets.

[00:30:27] Exactly. We could have a longer, different podcast conversation about the industrial complex and capitalism and all this stuff that feeds on people being really busy. And so they have to make these choices understandable sometimes. If they want to survive, they have to do X, Y, and Z.

[00:30:46] And one of those variables does not include always making time for other people in their lives outside of maybe their nuclear family and their boss. Yeah. Even in my childhood, even though it was

[00:30:57] really harsh, I lived in the bush. I actually come from Queensland, so the top end of Australia. I lived in a caravan for the first nine years of my life. All I had was my mother and my father.

[00:31:09] I had my sister, and I had my animals, and I had outside. And some toys, whatever. I had the earth under my feet. I went barefoot. I was connected to the earth. At the end of the day,

[00:31:20] that's actually all I ever needed. Now you can't get that, not in abundance, because you've got to do... And it's not just being an adult because I watch my children and they have to tick all the

[00:31:32] boxes for school, with their friends, all this social media, all the phones. And then you add one more thing to it and people break. And sometimes they end their lives, and sometimes they get through it like you did. Did we even talk about how you actually went from

[00:31:47] 2021 to today? How did you get through it? How are you here? I was very isolated and not at the same time. So I got completely dumped by the private psychiatry, private mental health sector in Tasmania because I became too complicated. And while that sounds

[00:32:02] really horrendous, it sounds really shocking, it was the best thing that could possibly happen because I stopped being shoved into places. I stopped the medication. And then I found a place

[00:32:16] to live next to my sisters, a beautiful, beautiful person I owe my life to. And we just got talking and he said, look, what's going on? I said, oh, bloody well looking for a house. I'd been

[00:32:29] really, really struggling. This was about six months after coming out of hospital on my last attempt. So still recovering at that stage, I was still recovering from kidney and liver. I was trying

[00:32:40] to look for a job because in our economy, you still have to work while you're really significantly sick and looking for a place to live. And he just said, look, I'll charge you

[00:32:49] a hundred bucks a week, come and live in one of my rooms. Incredible person. So he also suffers from really significant mental health issues. And so he gave me this really safe place like I'd

[00:33:00] never had before. And he accepted every ounce of me. Neither of us accepted poor behavior from each other. It's just, there's a difference between accepting a human and accepting behavior, but he

[00:33:11] got what it's like to be so scared of yourself. He understood what it's like to just want to completely end it all and live at the same time. Is a friend of your sister's? I didn't catch that.

[00:33:22] Next door neighbor. Oh, wow. I met him in at the clinic that I'd been going to like a couple of years ago and we just got chatting. And he played the guitar and he'd put me to sleep because I

[00:33:34] wouldn't sleep. And he'd start playing guitar and I just fall asleep in the lounge room. And so we just connected over creativity, over music, but we didn't see anything after that for years.

[00:33:45] Yeah. And we just got talking and he had a spare room and he gave it to me. And I, for about a year and a half, I lived there. I really wanted my kids back. I still didn't have my kids at that point

[00:33:54] because I was living out of a room. It wasn't because I wasn't functional. It wasn't because I had bad rapport with my kids. We absolutely adored each other. We went through some really hellish

[00:34:03] times, but it was because I lived out of a room. Nobody has five kids. Anyway, about a year and a half, I'd gone through hell trying to get myself to recover and I'd gotten some money out of the

[00:34:15] separation from my marriage. And so I used that to get my own place, just renting. I finally got my kids back. It's just been like magic, like really painful magic. So painful because you're still

[00:34:28] living with the terrorist. You're still fighting yourself every single day. My aim was I never wanted to end up in hospital ever again, facing all those beautiful people, thinking that it's not

[00:34:40] so much that they'll miss me or anything like that, but I never wanted to see the tears in their eyes like that ever again. It doesn't take away from the fact that given the right circumstances,

[00:34:49] I would take my life in my own time on my own abolition. It's taken me, what's 2024, two years of really solid work to get me here on my own. I've only just recently got a psychologist and

[00:35:02] she's old. She's really old, so she's old school. She doesn't take a shit and we're just working on getting my nervous system back. So I'm not terrified of everyone all the time. No medication.

[00:35:11] I asked her about a psychiatrist and she's like, hell no, I don't trust them either. I love you. May have found the right person. How often do you think about, how often do you ideate

[00:35:20] these days? And I know that might be a tricky question if you're disassociate, but- It can be at least once a month and some months more serious than others, but it's never been

[00:35:30] anywhere near as close as what it used to be. Now I'm recognizing, I can see myself recognize those thoughts. I hold them close because I think it's important. Because I think if there's one

[00:35:42] lesson that I've learned is that if I let things escape me, if I just brush those thoughts aside, they go to a really dangerous place. I need to keep them close and see them for what they are.

[00:35:54] And also I'm not scared of death anymore. It's not death that I'm ever scared of. It's being alive and severely disabled, losing my independence that I'm more scared of. And I think that's probably what holds me at bay from doing anything outside of my children.

[00:36:09] So are you in a home with them and you live with them in a house or a home or an apartment or somewhere? Yeah. In a house, three bedroom, little clear three bedroom house. There's six of us in here. Kids share a room all

[00:36:18] together. And because it's some week on week off, they go to their dads every second week. I sleep on the lounge room when they're here, but it's great. I wouldn't change it. It's my house. I've got nobody taking anything from me. Amazing. Doesn't take away the long-term damage.

[00:36:34] Why did you look for a podcast with the word suicide in it? Recently or was that dating back some time? No, it wasn't. Look, on and off, I go through these periods where I question myself. I'm like, why do I feel this way? Why?

[00:36:47] I'm an inquiring person. I love researching. I love researching. And my most favorite thing is researching people because I know I'm not the only one on this bloody planet. And I know that

[00:36:58] I learn the best through other people's stories. And so it was four or five months ago and I'd been listening to various different mental health ones that are driving me crazy because it's just

[00:37:08] breaking down nervous systems and shit like that. I'm like, suicide, I need to know how, why, why suicide? Why me? When I went from that to that and I'd known people that had ended their lives

[00:37:20] and I knew why then and I totally accepted it, but I needed more. And all that came up on Spotify was just these really clinical reasons not to. What do you do

[00:37:29] when you are suicidal? Again, not something I wanted to know about. And then I think it was about two months ago, I must've dialed it in again on Spotify and yours just came up number one like

[00:37:40] that. Clicked on it. It was just like, you know how you see in cartoons when somebody gets an idea and the light bulb goes off. It was like that. It was just finally, finally. And I just got listening and I haven't really stopped. Oh really?

[00:37:55] There's been so many people from your podcast that have taught me so much about their perspectives, but also solidified a lot of my own perspectives. And that's really affirming. It's not about making your truth, the truth, whatever it is, but it's making your thought processes sound

[00:38:11] less bloody crazy. Yeah, for sure. So all I can say is thank God for you and your podcast. Thank God for honest speakers and brave people. One of the many interesting parts was that most of the people that I heard were sitting in

[00:38:25] their cars. Sitting in their cars. I'm like, I don't drive. I don't even have a car. God. Something about the cars. Yes. Yeah. Well, I think it's isolation. I think it's, again, your podcast is there to try and

[00:38:38] get people's stories out there. But yet there are so many people that it's either their very first goal at getting their story out there. And so they stay in their cars and privacy. How many people know we're talking other than your children?

[00:38:51] Some of my kids, just them. And it's interesting because obviously we've been sort of communicating for a little bit about getting a time. So I had plenty of opportunities to tell

[00:39:01] other people, but it's a little bit like, well, who do I tell? Why would I want to say anything? They already know the story. It's not like I've had to hide my story, but it's almost like

[00:39:10] I needed this to be untainted by other people's thoughts or viewpoints. And I didn't want praise over it either. Oh, that's very cool. That's very honorable because you do hear people say that about other people's situations. It's actually not any of those things. It's just honesty.

[00:39:27] So it sounds like there are not a small number of people that know that you have tried to end your life at least once, if not more. Yeah. I've been really lucky to have a

[00:39:36] beautiful array of friends. And again, Hobart is a small town. I play in many circles. I'm a musician, I'm a dancer, I'm a mother, I'm a teacher. There's many circles that I have morphed into collectively almost. And then obviously you're part of the mental health association

[00:39:54] to kind of circle here as well. And so word spreads like wildfire, unfortunately. The interesting part is that they know, but nobody talks about it. Nobody says a word. Nobody asks, how are you? And this is, I think, listening to all, oh, you've done so many glorious

[00:40:12] things, honestly. The interesting part about coming out of each one of my attempts was that nobody talked to me about it. All I ever heard was, are you going to do it again?

[00:40:25] Nobody talked about it. And what did I need? I needed somebody say something. I think you need to talk about this. Okay, let's break this down. I had one friend that let me talk about it,

[00:40:35] but she's a psychologist. So I went and did the opposite. And I'm like, let's just talk a lot about it. Let's just break every rule, ask why you're not supposed to ask

[00:40:43] why. I was like, you can ask the question and the person could say, I don't want to talk about that. You don't have to ask like an asshole, but you can ask who are making these rules? Who are making

[00:40:51] these rules? You can't say this. You have to say, I get it. I get it. There are guidelines because people don't know what the fuck they're doing. We don't learn how to communicate. I understand all that, but- We don't know how to hold space for anyone.

[00:41:03] We're terrible at it. So you don't have, as we speak today, many people, if anyone, to talk. You have the old psychologist. I don't mean to be mean. She just happens to be older. She's old. But you're also paying her. The dynamic might be a little different,

[00:41:16] but it's somebody. But who else do you have in your life to talk to? Maybe it's not like we're talking, but it's not nothing. You know what I mean? The S word.

[00:41:25] Look, I have some really good close friends, but I wouldn't say, you know what? I need help. I'm suicidal today. Risky. Because their buckets are all full. We all care about each other. And it's not that I'm scared.

[00:41:37] Actually, no, I am terrified if somebody just called the police or that's one thing. That's probably a lot of why I won't say a thing about it. That if I'm really not coping very well at

[00:41:48] the time, no way I'll go back there. No way. Yeah. I think that people feel that way. I won't talk about it. What doesn't come up too much is that the fear of having gone through that and

[00:41:59] not wanting it again. So you don't talk about it because somebody might do this or that, and they have the power to do that. That's what we're taught to do. If somebody tells you that they're

[00:42:09] suicidal, make sure you get them help. But then the next part of the conversation The next thing was actually they did that. And then you started talking and then the police

[00:42:19] came and then you were in the back of a car against your will, and then you were hospitalized against your will. And then you were treated like shit. And then you were given a bunch of

[00:42:26] medication. And then someone shamed the shit out of you who's actually a medical professional. And then three weeks later, two weeks later, one week later, you get out and you don't have any resources. Hey, was that part of the conversation? Now, am I being a little

[00:42:38] extreme? Sure. To make a point, but that is not a super uncommon scenario. Do you know the other thing that they'll do? And they did it to me as well. And this is the

[00:42:47] other thing that scares the absolute shit out of me. A couple of my attempts, they'd actually reported me to child service. Now I did nothing around my children. This was my off week. My ex

[00:42:57] had the kids that way, reported me to child services because I'd had an overdose. They did not have the conversation with me about children. I said to them, please call my ex. He will be up

[00:43:10] front with you. No, they didn't do that. And I'm not the only person that this is done to. Not only do you not get support in terms of what can we do to help you? Okay, we're shoving you into hospital,

[00:43:21] we'll dose you up to your eyeballs. We won't listen to you. Oh, and we might take your kids away. Right. Would you like to do any more damage? And hey, make sure you come back if you're ever feeling down again.

[00:43:31] Oh, and if you don't come back, we'll actually put you under the tribunal and then you'll be part of the mental health service and we'll come to your doorstep every week to make sure that you're doing the right thing. So you wonder why people might not want

[00:43:44] to be a part of that system? I had them chasing me, taking me out of my kids' appointments. They had no right to. You hear it so many times. I've heard so many of the people that you talk to say, if you mention anything about being suicidal,

[00:43:58] it's straight involuntary. And so you learn to lie. Guess where that lie gets you? In an unattempted situation. I think some people have counselors, as I didn't, but some people might have it where they can talk about it and they just

[00:44:11] have to be very clear. Like, I don't have a plan. There was one lady, oh my God, she was incredible that I listened to. And she had this amazing relationship with her therapist because she got incredibly suicidal, particularly when it's winter time. She had this incredible rapport

[00:44:26] with her therapist that she checked in every single week, but she was incredibly honest. And her therapist was, as long as you're really honest, when you take your life, you take your life. It's more nuanced than that. That's how it's meant to work.

[00:44:41] Yes. I agree. People will disagree. I agree with you 100%, but I'm also the person who has a suicide noted podcast. So maybe we're not the typical person in some ways, but it's just ironic

[00:44:52] that I don't think people can easily understand or measure why that scenario is good. The one you just described, the one with that guest. One of my kids must've asked me, why are you doing it?

[00:45:02] Not out of accusation, but out of curiosity. And I said, there is one thing that humans have learned by from dawn of time, and that is through stories. Every culture is based on stories. And that's how revolution starts, is the stories. History started. It's so subtle.

[00:45:20] So you have children, you have music, you have dance. What is your favorite instrument? I am a piccolo player. Tiny, tiny flute, but much cooler. It's a much cooler thing. Is there a particular kind of dance you most enjoy? I used to teach swing dancing.

[00:45:35] Very nice. Do you ever wish... I guess this could be dating back to some time in the past, but more so as we talk now, any of those attempts had worked?

[00:45:44] The person that's sitting on the spot right this very second, I'm glad that I'm here. But the person that was here even just a couple of days ago, 100%. It's a day in, day out scenario. I just feel

[00:46:00] so fortunate right now because I've got my kids with me. I get to do this. I think this feels so worthwhile. I think worthiness in yourself is important, but you get so tired. Not just, I need a sleep, but life tired. Memoir title? Life Tired.

[00:46:17] Life Tired. I'm so life tired. You said earlier life is brutal. I was like, ooh. Yes. Life is brutal. I think with brutal, it's magnificent at the same time. I feel like I'd be drawn to that memoir. So pink and purple pill question. You've heard of that? Yes.

[00:46:34] Yeah. So the one where you die, but it's painless and nobody knows it's a suicide. And given what you just shared about, well, what you just shared about it's a day in, day out type of thing.

[00:46:45] My guess is, tell me if I'm wrong, you would store that safely somewhere. 100%. And there's no expiration date on it. So it could last a while. Fuck me. Can you just stop greasing this for reals?

[00:46:58] I have to make it clear once in a while that it's not real. So you're in your mid forties? Yes, I am. You think you'll be 50 years old and alive or is that an impossible thing to know?

[00:47:07] That is 100% impossible. If you asked me that question when I was 36, I'd be like, I'm lasting to 150, baby. Having gone through what I went through, I know how fucking dark I can get. So. Any myths or misconceptions about, well, anything really? Not anything, not about tomato juice, but

[00:47:28] this stuff. One, suicide the conversation, not actually scary. So actually facing yourself is terrifying. To go about the act of suicide, it's a horrible word, but anyway, the act of taking your own life is the hardest, hardest, hardest thing that anybody has either attempted or accomplished.

[00:47:51] And it's not just because of mental health reasons. It's for any number of reasons. And it's been society from the dawn of time. This is not new. This is not a revolution. This has been since we existed.

[00:48:04] If you hadn't gotten, let's say sick or at least, I don't know if the word sick, but if shit didn't happen the way it did in 2016, would you still be married? Oh, good question. Possibly. It would be a reasonably destructive relationship, but I wouldn't have known any better. 100%.

[00:48:20] Right. Because you said all that. I mean, it changed you in a big way and not just like internally, but you mentioned some friends, your partner. Our relationship was rocky, but we had six kids. Jesus.

[00:48:31] My being so unwell stretched the limits on our marriage. I discovered who he really was. We met when we were very young, so we didn't really know ourselves. He had an affair while I was in hospital

[00:48:44] really sick. And it was just at that point that I realized that I was not getting any support and he wasn't really looking after the kids so well. On the other side of that, I was a shit show,

[00:48:56] so I can understand not necessarily the affair, but the fact that he was struggling as well. And I think there's a wealth of people out there that have been in this sort of situation and their

[00:49:07] partnerships have split just purely under the pressure of something like that. So, life-changing. The split actually was good for both of us, but we're very amicable. Yeah. Any others? It's not about testing my limits or holding

[00:49:23] space for myself over suicide. It is purely because stories need to be told and connections need to be had. I felt like I've connected with you over the last couple of months,

[00:49:34] and even though you don't tell a huge amount about your story, I feel like I know you just that little bit more and all those amazing people. Well, given that you will answer seemingly any

[00:49:46] question, is there a question that I should ask or you want me to ask you? Or perhaps as you've listened to other guests, you thought, he never asked a question and I want him to ask this

[00:49:55] question. Oh my God. Look, I'll think of one and I'll type the answer to you. How's that? You can just read it out at the end. I think the one thing that you do probably best of all

[00:50:07] of the stuff that I either read or listen to is the fact that you highlight that for anyone that survived or even died via suicide, that it's not just a singular story. It encompasses so much more

[00:50:22] of the human being. You've highlighted that that person that has attempted isn't somebody that's tried to kill themselves or taken them off the planet or has heinously tried to take themselves away from people. They're so three-dimensional, these people. I just honor the people that have

[00:50:40] attempted and still suffer every single day. They still go ahead because I've got a glimpse of it. I'm not saying I'm like that all the time, and I certainly wasn't before. I think every single

[00:50:54] step that they make forwards is the most precious thing for themselves, not for any other motherfucker out there. Right. And I'm drawn to them. I don't know why exactly, but I am drawn to the person

[00:51:06] who's suffering and just keeps trying. It'll be wonderful to see the day where we can actually have our true autonomy over whether we live or die and have that power for ourselves. There are some places, little pockets, where it's moving in that direction a little more. Is there

[00:51:24] anything else you'd like to share before we get back to our lives? I know you're going to get some sleep, I hope. Oh, I might do. I love night times. It's amazing. There is one other thing,

[00:51:34] just thinking about it and dealing with my kids with this. I'm not saying that anybody should ever disclose information to their kids, but I know with my story and my kids, they are far more

[00:51:46] compassionate and understanding and loving because they know about my story. Not the full in dark bits, that'll come when they're adults, but they understand life and death so much better in the

[00:52:03] fact that it isn't always a choice and sometimes it is, and never to hate or begrudge anybody their story. Also, they know that my existence isn't purely for them. I think that's so important for everyone to understand. We should not begrudge somebody's autonomy because we think we deserve

[00:52:23] them. Yeah, they've been through the ringer. When I was telling them about this, they celebrated it. They really did. I've got my 17-year-old, my 15-year-old and my 14-year-old. Those are the three that I told. My 19-year-old is currently in the UK. They celebrated me telling my story

[00:52:42] because it's not hidden to them. I know when I found it and listened to the first story, I went from this very low mental state to almost euphoric. The euphoria of connection to all of those other people that are doing exactly the same thing, trying to discover.

[00:53:02] Because you're hearing some pretty heavy stuff from people's lives, like how do you walk away from what you're doing right now? You turn off that computer. You walk away with somebody else's

[00:53:13] baggage. It's not baggage to me. I think mostly for better because one, I can just do it with some objectivity and two, no, it's not as if I can only talk once a month because it's so heavy for

[00:53:25] me. No, but I'm like, cool. That was a cool conversation and when I edit it, that'll be interesting. Do I sound too matter of fact about it? 100%. No, it's actually really refreshing because you get so surrounded by people. They get so impacted by other people's stories.

[00:53:42] Yeah, you're not going to trigger me. You can say whatever the fuck you want. I don't know if that makes me not normal or not human, but we don't spend almost any time having real conversations

[00:53:52] about certain things. So when we do, I'm like, I like it, which is fucked up because people would, if they misinterpret that, so also you like talking about when like you... No, I'm not saying

[00:54:02] I want people to end their fucking lives. I'm not saying I'm enjoying someone's pain, but it's like a veterinarian isn't necessarily praying dogs get hit by cars. Dogs get hit by cars.

[00:54:12] I know people are in pain. Let's talk about it. I don't know. It's so fucking easy and straightforward. I don't understand why. This is why I half joke. It's like, you've got to be

[00:54:21] kidding that it was me that started a podcast like that. I think you're safer at living in reality than a lot of other people. Maybe. The realities of life is that we're born and we die

[00:54:32] and there's shit in the middle of it. And that's what we do with that shit. Our feet are on the ground. That's a reality. We haven't got wings. We can't fly. Let's get that out of our head.

[00:54:42] It's a lovely idea, but that's not reality. Why can't people just talk about it? They're scared. No, it is. We're so terrified of our own emotions. We're so terrified of everybody else's emotions because that's what we've been taught. Unfortunately, getting back to Big Pharma

[00:54:57] and the psychiatry and that, oh my God, you're feeling emotion. Let's get a tablet into you. Let's dumb it down. And then we've got a society where we have addictions. I had an addiction to

[00:55:06] alcohol. I tried to dampen down. It's all gone now. But we're taught to dampen everything down because it's all fucking painful. Same thing with suicide. The only thing that we can talk about

[00:55:16] is the joys of life or whatever they look like. Probably a lot of mine would have not existed because of the secrecy that was inside of me. I had to be secret. I had to be secret. Because what

[00:55:28] would happen? It's true. It's the same with addictions. We're secretive about our addictions because people won't talk about it or can't talk about it. People don't want to hear about it.

[00:55:39] Do you think talking about suicide the way I tend to talk about it with people might lead them to end their lives? If somebody did come along, have a conversation with you and then eventually

[00:55:50] they would have done it fucking anyway. And you know what? You probably gave them some peace at the end of the day. But this is the problem that mental health has had in the last several

[00:55:59] years is that it became clickbait. It became so sensationalized that we're all talking about it in completely the wrong fashion. I don't know whether you have it in America, but we have

[00:56:11] something called, Are You Okay Date? Okay. I can't handle this. I can't do it. We spend a day wandering around Australia, checking in with people we don't know going, Are you okay? That's it? No.

[00:56:23] And then everybody's like, Oh shit, I've got to go. Bye. It's pointless. Well, shouldn't we be doing that every day anyway? Just as a basic... Yeah. Too many buckets. You know what I'm saying?

[00:56:33] So as soon as it hits big time news, as soon as it hits everybody's mouths and every single person on the universe, it's destroyed. And the proper conversations are destroyed. I have kind of,

[00:56:46] I suppose, certainly in the realms of the people that I mix with, my perspective on suicide is quite unique in that it's your choice. It's your choice whether you suicide or not. But the worst

[00:56:57] thing that you can possibly do to anyone is prolong life that isn't wanted. Actually, my uncle recently killed himself actually. He's very old. So in his seventies and he had throat cancer. They had it

[00:57:12] for years. He'd just come back from the hospital. So he's in pain, doesn't have a lot of pain medication, just really suffering, but his bloods were fine. So he was going to last for, I don't

[00:57:22] know how long. He sorted his affairs out, didn't tell anyone, went and ended his life. That's because he was denied a nice, safe, smooth way of ending his life. Why would you want to live like

[00:57:34] that? Now that's a physical issue. Why can't we look at mental health issues the same way to a degree? Another part of the conversation that we don't hear too often is so often people will still

[00:57:45] do it. They'll just do it in ways that are horrible. Like with zero... Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. So instead of it being a way where maybe you're injected with something and family and friends

[00:57:53] are around and you're comfortable and there's no pain... I think one, if we were to actually talk honestly about the reasons why people don't end their lives, it's because we then start asking questions. We'd start asking questions. The system, whatever that institution, the system,

[00:58:12] whatever, don't want us to ask questions because they've got us nicely planted under their thumb. They've got us in a beautiful position of compliance. It's causing people to die and

[00:58:25] be in a lot of pain. But causing them to die in the dark. What sort of death is that? Thanks for talking. It was very cool. It was nice to meet you and actually see your face rather than just listen

[00:58:34] to your dulcet tones. Thank you very much. 100% appreciated it, even at... What time is it now? Three o'clock. I would be fast asleep, but hey, you do you. You do your thing, middle of the night in

[00:58:47] Tasmania. Thanks again. Appreciate it. Nice meeting you, mate. I'll keep listening. Thank you. Awesome. Take care. Bye. As always, thanks so much for listening and all of your support. Special thanks to Stacey

[00:59:00] in Tasmania. Thank you, Stacey. If you are a suicide attempt survivor and you'd like to talk, please reach out. Hello at suicidenoted.com on Facebook or Twitter slash x at suicidenoted. You can check the show notes to learn more about the podcast, including our membership. But hey,

[00:59:17] however you are involved or support or participate, or maybe you just listen once or twice, thanks. And that is all for episode number 218. Stay strong. Do the best you can. I'll talk to you soon.