Special Episode: A Convo on Models, Morals and Bots

[00:00:00] I'm going to lean on you all because, well, one, it's a conversation with other people and you are those people. Shockingly, it's not the Sean show. I tried it. No one listened. Nobody gave a shit.

[00:00:50] The podcast is to have more conversations with attempt survivors, in large part to help more people in more places, hopefully feel a little less shitty and a little less alone.

[00:00:59] Now, if you are a suicide attempt survivor and you'd like to talk, please reach out hello at suicidenoted.com on Facebook or X at Suicide Noted.

[00:01:08] And if you're curious about the podcast and you want to learn more, check out the show notes. There's all kinds of stuff there that may pique your interest, including our membership and our training,

[00:01:18] as well as some other audio projects we're working on that you might want to participate in. So check that out. However you participate, however you're involved, thank you.

[00:01:29] Finally, we are talking about suicide on this podcast and I don't hold back. We don't hold back. So please take that into account before you listen or as you listen.

[00:01:39] But I do hope you listen because there's so much to learn. Today's episode is a conversation with members and I am talking with Diana in Colorado.

[00:01:47] Elizabeth in Washington and Sharon in Ontario. Buckle up. Here we go. Enjoy the talk.

[00:01:58] I want to talk a little bit about prevention, not necessarily models, but just, you know, the conversation we've all been having, I'm sure, for a while.

[00:02:04] Now, 2018 to 2023, the 988 number was put into operation in July 2022. From July to December 2022, there were 355,000 calls.

[00:02:17] January to August 2024. So I guess we're fast forwarding more than about a year. So they got more traffic if we want to call it that 545,000 calls. Similar percentage dropped average time. These are interesting stats. Is that one minute and 33 seconds? Wow.

[00:02:36] Yeah. So if you're in a crisis, 90 seconds can feel like a very long time to be in wait.

[00:02:41] Hmm. I wouldn't mind talking about that. So let me go on. This will only take a minute. The average number of deaths attributed to suicide is relatively unchanged since 2018. Oh, excuse me, but from 2000 to 2018. So before then, there was a 38% increase in deaths overall.

[00:02:58] 2022 to 2023, similar number of deaths nationwide attributed to suicide, slightly more in 2023. 55% use a firearm, 25% involve suffocation, most likely the result of hanging. That's higher than I would have imagined. And 12% involve poisoning, which includes intentional overdoses. The individual is four more times likely to be a male.

[00:03:23] And I believe you didn't say this year, but just mathematically that's referring to completions. Highest demographics or group is American Indian and Alaskan natives. Then it goes white, native Hawaiian, Pacific Islander, black, Hispanic, Asian. The largest age group are people over 85. Actually, number two is 75 to 84. Then it goes to 45 to 54. And then it bounces around a little bit to younger, 20s, 30s, then up to 50s, 60s.

[00:03:53] And then the lowest two are people under 24. It says that in 2022, 1.6 million Americans attempted suicide. That's obviously only reported. Sorry, Sharon in Thunder Bay, Ontario. We have numbers here for the United States.

[00:04:10] It doesn't surprise me.

[00:04:11] It doesn't?

[00:04:12] No, I mean, I feel like despite these so-called efforts at destigmatizing suicide, I don't have any data. This is just my gut feeling and personal experience. And that I'm just going to say, I think it may be even getting worse. Like the stigma of it.

[00:04:32] For example, I could just play this little tiny short snippet at the beginning of this podcast I was listening to right before I jumped on here. And it's about suicide. And she's covering the topic because of it being September.

[00:04:46] And right out of the gate, she gives this little preamble about how we typically don't try to use the language that includes committed.

[00:04:59] But my guest today, and wait, she adds something about how because we've learned that that language is, she might have even said stigmatizing.

[00:05:11] Then she says, my guest today uses the term and I don't try to police my guests or I encourage my guests to be able to use whatever words they want to say.

[00:05:25] But then I'm sitting there and I'm just absolutely stunned and sickened because I'm like, you just fucking shamed that woman.

[00:05:32] Right.

[00:05:33] And you're shaming everyone else, but you're putting it under this like pretty flowery, politically correct guise called, you know, those of us who are more enlightened wouldn't use such an awful term like committed suicide.

[00:05:47] How is that helping this?

[00:05:49] How?

[00:05:50] It's only just, and that's just one little sliver of my example of half a dozen other things I can think of that I encounter regularly that only adds to this like stiffening of it.

[00:06:02] It's like you, I can't even look in my search function in Instagram, even it being given it's September, supposedly suicide prevention month.

[00:06:13] If you type in the search function, suicide prevention, 988 pops up.

[00:06:20] Well, that's not fucking helpful.

[00:06:21] I'm trying to post this about suicide prevention and they're blocked.

[00:06:26] Wait a second.

[00:06:27] Hold up.

[00:06:28] You're not supposed to laugh when you talk about suicide either.

[00:06:30] We're not supposed to laugh.

[00:06:32] No laughing.

[00:06:33] I'm going to lean on you all because, well, one, it's a conversation with other people and you are those people.

[00:06:38] Shockingly, it's not the Sean show.

[00:06:40] I tried it.

[00:06:40] No one listened.

[00:06:41] Nobody gave a shit.

[00:06:42] I don't have the language always, ironically, to talk about these things.

[00:06:45] Like what Elizabeth just said.

[00:06:47] I have trouble even just trying to find a way to, like, I get what you're saying, but I don't have the words to say why that is so absurd.

[00:06:56] Like the example you're giving of a woman saying, well, I don't usually use the word commit when I'm talking, but I'm going to make an exception because I don't language police or whatever the words we were to my guest.

[00:07:06] And that's presumably inadvertently shaming her because she's choosing to use the word.

[00:07:10] Am I the only one that thinks that's shaming?

[00:07:13] Because that could just be an Elizabeth issue.

[00:07:15] Like maybe I'm sensing shame.

[00:07:17] I felt like that was shaming.

[00:07:19] I felt like that if I was that woman who had been on there, I would have felt sick to my stomach.

[00:07:25] I would have felt like, oh my God, that was so not just condescending and belittling, like suggesting that I'm stupid and I don't have enough sense to be able to figure out what is a preach language and common parlance these days.

[00:07:41] Is it shaming or no?

[00:07:43] No, no, no.

[00:07:44] I wouldn't be thrilled with it.

[00:07:46] If I were the woman, that's for shit sure.

[00:07:48] I feel like it's shaming.

[00:07:49] I do agree with you that that would be shaming if I was the guest and I had a word that I was used for, especially when it pertains to the main topic of the conversation.

[00:07:59] I would like to know if that host discussed the fact that she was putting disclaimer on the episode with that guest, you know?

[00:08:07] Because I feel like if I was the guest and the host advised me that she was going to have like a 10-minute diatribe about how I wasn't using politically correct language,

[00:08:15] I would probably tell the host to go fuck herself.

[00:08:18] I feel like a lot of people kind of overcompensate to try and ensure that they don't get canceled by society.

[00:08:26] And I feel like they infantilize everybody by thinking that we don't have enough common sense to realize that if I say something and Sean puts it on his podcast, it's not Sean's opinion.

[00:08:38] It's my opinion.

[00:08:39] Like, it's just, it's ridiculousness.

[00:08:42] And then it makes me completely batshit.

[00:08:45] I was just going to say from the public health lens, what I see when I see those statistics is that society has made a decision that they don't care about people who are having these kinds of experiences.

[00:08:56] Because when we do care about populations that are experiencing a certain disproportionality of whatever, we throw tons of resources and money at it.

[00:09:06] When we look at HIV AIDS in the early years, we weren't throwing money, we weren't throwing resources because it was gay.

[00:09:11] It was like them, them, those other people that were having those experiences.

[00:09:15] The pandemic, right?

[00:09:17] It was people of color.

[00:09:18] It was people who were poor.

[00:09:19] It was the elderly.

[00:09:20] It was people with disabilities who were disproportionately impacted.

[00:09:23] Therefore, we're like, we don't care.

[00:09:25] And the same thing, I feel like even today, we continue to paint people who are having these kinds of experiences as people with moral failings.

[00:09:34] It's the same way that we used to look at substance use disorders.

[00:09:37] Oh, those people are just morally weak.

[00:09:38] And therefore, to some degree, although I don't think anybody would ever say this out loud, they're okay with people completing suicide or dying by suicide.

[00:09:47] Because they're like, you're weak.

[00:09:49] You're, you know, whatever.

[00:09:50] You're less than.

[00:09:51] It's okay.

[00:09:52] Because we're going to have everybody else.

[00:09:54] And it's kind of very Darwinian in that respect.

[00:09:55] And that makes me sick to my stomach.

[00:09:57] And yet, in my cynical public health lens, that's what I see when I see that there are trends that don't change over time.

[00:10:05] And I'm like, okay, whatever it is, it's not working.

[00:10:08] And you apparently don't care that it's not working.

[00:10:10] Again, I want to just have that conversation.

[00:10:12] If that's really where we're at, then let's just say it out loud and be like, I don't give up about these people.

[00:10:18] I don't care.

[00:10:18] And, you know, Shana, it occurs to me that we have three women here and then you.

[00:10:22] And part of what you bring up in your podcast is, you know, where are the men?

[00:10:27] Why aren't they talking?

[00:10:27] And as we're going through some of the statistics, I'm like, well, they're not talking because they're dead.

[00:10:33] Because they're more likely to complete.

[00:10:35] So you're talking to the women who are surviving these experiences and the small proportionality of men, you know, who survive.

[00:10:42] But they're less likely to survive.

[00:10:43] So they're less likely to be available to have these conversations.

[00:10:46] Right.

[00:10:47] What do you know about like when I say youth, I mean, let's say the age of 10 to 18.

[00:10:54] Are they 988 more?

[00:10:56] They are.

[00:10:57] And I would say that there's also a lot of programs that are specifically focused on that age group.

[00:11:02] I think people like to throw a lot of resources at kind of anybody under 25, so to speak.

[00:11:07] So there are a lot of programs in individual states that are like, if you think that your friend is having this thing, you know, call them or text them or, you know, reach out to this resource.

[00:11:16] The other thing that I found interesting when I was doing the research was that a couple of things that are changing some of the numbers,

[00:11:24] although clearly not enough, are better mood stabilizers and more consistent mood stabilizers.

[00:11:30] And then the use of Narcan to reverse overdoses.

[00:11:34] Again, that's pretty low hanging fruit.

[00:11:37] That doesn't reach a lot of people.

[00:11:40] And it feels like, again, the mental health system is like, and Sean, you and I, we've all had this conversation before.

[00:11:46] Like if in any other specialty, if it was cardiology or neurology or any other specialty, they're like, yeah, it sucks.

[00:11:52] We don't get good outcomes.

[00:11:54] And like people would not be okay with that.

[00:11:56] If this was OBGYN and people were like, a lot of people are dying.

[00:12:00] We're not like, nobody would be okay with that.

[00:12:02] But the mental health system, everybody is willing to admit that it's broken.

[00:12:06] It's ineffectual.

[00:12:07] There's not enough providers.

[00:12:09] There's not enough culturally confident providers that are not bilingual.

[00:12:11] I mean, it just goes on and on and on.

[00:12:13] And people just kind of like, eh.

[00:12:15] And I'm like, well, why is that okay?

[00:12:17] Why is that okay?

[00:12:18] And I think that's the conversation.

[00:12:20] Because we're okay with having those kinds of outcomes.

[00:12:23] Because we continue to paint people with diagnoses in that category as weak and morally inferior.

[00:12:32] And we're kind of like, eh, marginalizing.

[00:12:35] Like it's okay if we lose them.

[00:12:36] Because they're not really worth holding on to.

[00:12:38] And again, if that's really our attitude, then let's just be honest.

[00:12:42] That this is like Hunger Games all over again.

[00:12:44] So you said like, why is that okay?

[00:12:46] Why do you think?

[00:12:47] And this is to everyone here.

[00:12:48] Like, why do you think?

[00:12:50] Why is it okay?

[00:12:51] Like, because you said something about, well, they're, they're, let's use words like you

[00:12:55] said, like weak or weird or whatever.

[00:12:58] Some of my words too.

[00:12:59] But that doesn't answer the question.

[00:13:01] Why is it okay to treat people who are those things as if they're less important?

[00:13:06] And I actually am really curious to know what you think.

[00:13:08] Why is that okay?

[00:13:10] Sounds like a whole bunch of fucking bullying to me, but maybe I'm the crazy one.

[00:13:13] The measure of a society's something, is it not in, like it's not in the GDP that we

[00:13:20] might, some people might argue it is.

[00:13:22] And it's in like compassion.

[00:13:23] Well, I was, I was just thinking about GDP and economics and politics because I do think

[00:13:29] part of it has to do with resource allocation.

[00:13:32] And there literally is only so many dollars there.

[00:13:35] There's only so many dollars.

[00:13:37] And I know the system in the, in the States versus Canada, there's a lot of different things

[00:13:41] at play, but at the end of the day, there's X amount of dollars and there's no politician

[00:13:46] that's going to say, well, you know what?

[00:13:47] We're going to take, I don't know, a million dollars out of the healthcare that's going

[00:13:52] towards the 15 to 24 year old sector.

[00:13:55] And we're going to put it towards specific suicide prevention for 75 plus.

[00:14:00] There's no politician on the planet.

[00:14:02] That's, that's going to say, I'm going to take this resource away from this sector.

[00:14:06] So part of it, like, I don't know how big that part is, but part of it is that it's resource

[00:14:11] allocation and how do you tax more, do you increase taxes to have more resources available

[00:14:18] or do you cut in Canada?

[00:14:22] Part of the problem is that our resource, um, our, sorry, our, like our healthcare sector

[00:14:27] and our versus our, um, social programming that are coming from different not-for-profit

[00:14:32] organizations and there's all these different silos.

[00:14:35] And there's also a lot of, uh, fractures and this, these people get this much money,

[00:14:41] this organization gets this much.

[00:14:42] And I'm sure it's similar in the States where there's like, like it's, it's completely fractured.

[00:14:47] And sometimes it's also organizations fighting over the same dollars.

[00:14:51] And if you, if someone's saying, well, we'll get, we're going to give you a million dollars

[00:14:55] to work on safe supply for addiction versus you're not going to get any money if you continue

[00:15:02] this small program that you have for mental health and, um, suicide prevention, or you can

[00:15:11] come into safe supply and we're going to give you an extra million dollars.

[00:15:14] Like I do, a lot of it has to do with the money and the allocation and the resources

[00:15:17] from my perspective up here.

[00:15:19] But then you follow the money and then you realize, so what I say is a budget is a moral

[00:15:24] document and a calendar is a moral document where you spend your money and where you spend

[00:15:28] your time.

[00:15:28] Tell me everything I need to know about your morality.

[00:15:30] The fact that insurance companies are going to pay for Viagra and Cialis and other erectile

[00:15:35] dysfunction dogs, but they're not going to pay for ketamine tells me everything I need

[00:15:38] to know how we value those kinds of pieces.

[00:15:42] And that makes me angry because it tells me that those are the things that we value.

[00:15:47] And again, if that's what, if that's what it is, let's just be honest.

[00:15:50] And then we can face that head on and we can, you know, potentially move on from that

[00:15:56] or stop painting ourselves as this loving Judeo-Christian.

[00:16:01] We're trying to do everything that's right.

[00:16:03] It's not showing up.

[00:16:04] It's not showing up in the reality.

[00:16:06] And that's where I get frustrated because you're right.

[00:16:08] People are commoditized, right?

[00:16:10] Whether you're looking at actuarial tables and tell people all the time when 9-11 happened,

[00:16:15] they had an actuary that came by and valued everybody's life differently based on what they

[00:16:20] were expected to earn over the course of their lifetime.

[00:16:23] And that's how they decided to pay out.

[00:16:25] So let's just be honest.

[00:16:26] We value human life by how much money you're going to make over the course of your lifetime.

[00:16:30] So if somebody is doing janitorial services, their payout is going to be very different

[00:16:35] than somebody who's in a C-suite somewhere else.

[00:16:38] And again, we just need to be having honest conversations about how we value human life.

[00:16:42] All human life apparently is not valued the same.

[00:16:46] And again, let's just be honest about that.

[00:16:48] I mean, it's an election year.

[00:16:50] And do you hear them talking about any of this?

[00:16:52] Not once, not neither side.

[00:16:54] No, it's not important.

[00:16:56] I also wonder too, when you guys were talking earlier, I was thinking about this and I just

[00:17:01] wrote it down because I was thinking about I'm not in the healthcare sector, but if I was in the

[00:17:07] healthcare sector, just for how little resources and people that are in that sector versus the

[00:17:13] social shit show that is happening.

[00:17:16] Like, I feel like people are burnt out and there's compassion fatigue.

[00:17:21] Let's say I worked in healthcare and I was in a management, any role.

[00:17:25] I mean, I'm so burnt out.

[00:17:27] I don't have, I just can't advocate for anybody.

[00:17:30] And, you know, like I wonder if a lot of it has to do with that straight up compassion fatigue

[00:17:35] because there's so much up here, like town I live in anyway.

[00:17:39] There's like high addiction, high overdose, high suicide, lots of First Nations.

[00:17:44] And it gets, it's, it's just compassion fatigue.

[00:17:47] Yeah.

[00:17:47] And a lot of moral distress, right?

[00:17:49] I mean, I think when people come into the system and if you're a provider and you feel

[00:17:54] like what I'm doing is ineffectual because I know that there are so many other compounding

[00:17:58] factors that are going to contribute to this person's outcome.

[00:18:01] That's moral distress.

[00:18:02] Yes.

[00:18:02] I feel completely ineffectual.

[00:18:04] I feel like anything that I'm doing right now is going to be completely lost as soon

[00:18:07] as that person discharges or as soon as that person leaves my office or as soon as whatever.

[00:18:12] And that, that in and of itself can, can absolutely result in compassion fatigue or emotional,

[00:18:18] you know, dysregulation or whatever it is.

[00:18:20] But a lot of it is about like, I am just one person trying to make a difference.

[00:18:25] And there are so many other competing factors that are contributing.

[00:18:28] It is very strange to me because about, I don't know if it was 20 years.

[00:18:32] 15 years ago, there was a lot of media attention on suicide rates up here and you don't see

[00:18:39] it at all.

[00:18:40] And I would say the last, at least like five years for sure, possibly 10, it's never discussed.

[00:18:45] It's never talked about.

[00:18:47] And the suicide rates are higher than they were 20 years ago when it was big, huge news

[00:18:51] and advocacy.

[00:18:53] And, you know, it's not the flavor of the month.

[00:18:56] It's not even the flavor of the year.

[00:18:58] Decade.

[00:18:58] Yeah.

[00:18:58] I don't know what that, why?

[00:19:00] Is it because it's not an industry?

[00:19:02] You can't turn it into an industry.

[00:19:04] So nobody's interested.

[00:19:05] All the big companies are focused on other things right now.

[00:19:09] Medication.

[00:19:09] So like everything.

[00:19:11] And I find it strange that there's no media attention to this topic up here anyway.

[00:19:16] Not much.

[00:19:17] Like it seems like the only thing I ever see in the news, in the American news, is stuff

[00:19:22] about Israel and Gaza and Lebanon.

[00:19:25] And when I look at our news, all I see is like Ukraine and Russia.

[00:19:31] But there's no talk about our own little bubbles.

[00:19:35] You know what I mean?

[00:19:36] Like your bubbles and like Canada and the States.

[00:19:39] I mean, the politics.

[00:19:40] Yeah.

[00:19:40] But I don't know.

[00:19:41] It's strange what the media is.

[00:19:44] And it's sort of leaning people to look at.

[00:19:46] They want you to look at this.

[00:19:48] Like, don't look over here.

[00:19:49] Don't look over here.

[00:19:50] And are like, you know, let's all look over here instead.

[00:19:53] I was just going to say that, you know, it's interesting to me.

[00:19:58] Somebody was saying that's an election year.

[00:20:00] And a lot of people want to talk about crime.

[00:20:02] And I'm just like, yeah, people are being murdered.

[00:20:05] But a lot more people are completing suicide.

[00:20:08] So can we have that conversation?

[00:20:11] You are highly likely to die by your own hand as opposed to your neighbor coming over and,

[00:20:16] you know, bumping you off.

[00:20:17] But people don't want to have that conversation.

[00:20:19] And it's just, again, it blows my mind that we don't have that conversation nearly enough.

[00:20:24] People want to talk about homicide rates and crime.

[00:20:26] And I'm like, okay, but can we also talk about this other piece that's taking a lot of

[00:20:31] human lives?

[00:20:31] What percentage was it, Sean?

[00:20:34] Because you kind of glitched out off and on.

[00:20:37] For the 75 plus, the first and second highest were the 75 plus category.

[00:20:43] So what percentage of suicides was that?

[00:20:45] Over 85 is 23 suicides per 100,000 people.

[00:20:50] When you're that age and you're probably at home or in a nursing home or do they take pills or?

[00:20:57] Oh, how?

[00:20:58] I have no idea.

[00:20:59] I would say if you're a male, you'd use a firearm.

[00:21:02] Up here anyway, that's what you would do if you were a male.

[00:21:05] Yeah, here too.

[00:21:07] Yeah, that's the dominant one.

[00:21:09] Yeah.

[00:21:10] Or not take them.

[00:21:10] So what were the two categories, Sean?

[00:21:12] So it was 85 plus and then 75 plus were the top two?

[00:21:15] Yeah.

[00:21:15] And the third one was our demographic.

[00:21:18] Right.

[00:21:19] 45 to 54.

[00:21:20] It's interesting.

[00:21:21] I think part of the problem is that it's just a super complicated thing.

[00:21:27] And so even to tackle it is almost like I don't want to believe, I suppose, that it's just they don't give a shit.

[00:21:34] It could be.

[00:21:35] So this gets to the larger question about is the goal to prevent suicide?

[00:21:40] Because the thing is, is I was wrong about something.

[00:21:43] And I do think this ties in.

[00:21:44] Seems as if most people that they followed after trying, I think there was a couple of things done, one with the Golden Gate Bridge and another like a cliff in Japan, that most people that went there and were stopped didn't try again.

[00:21:57] It did not.

[00:21:58] Now, I don't know if that's true.

[00:21:59] But so it tells me, you know, my thought would have been, well, they're just going to find another way.

[00:22:03] Maybe not so much.

[00:22:04] So that kind of prevention makes me think, well, that seems like a good policy.

[00:22:09] There is a bunch of research about that period of time, why it's important.

[00:22:15] So like when, as soon as we would have a case where we had to come up with their safety plan and the reasons behind the safety plan, the data and the research for taking any sharps, objects, basically reducing the means that they had accessibility to.

[00:22:33] There is evidence that says like when you're going to do it and then it's not easily accessible or you can't easily do it.

[00:22:44] There's something about that deterrence and probably is correlated to being like depressed and frustrated.

[00:22:50] And yeah, it's deterrent enough to interfere.

[00:22:54] And then, you know, you've got these correlating factors of depression and maybe anxiety or cognitive difficulties and other things that then it's like, okay, this is really fucking hard.

[00:23:08] And I got all the way to that and I was, you know, rebuffed.

[00:23:12] And so now I have to start again and it's complicated and hard.

[00:23:17] And my parents have locked up.

[00:23:19] So I'm just referring to the kids that I worked with.

[00:23:21] Like my parents have locked up all the sharps in the house.

[00:23:24] All of the drugs are now at my aunt's house.

[00:23:27] And now the school is monitoring my every move.

[00:23:30] I can see why it would deter a little bit, but it's not addressing the bigger issue, which is like obsessed with happiness.

[00:23:38] We think, oh, we got to be happy.

[00:23:40] Instead, I would like to see just more of an approach.

[00:23:43] Let's decrease suffering in general.

[00:23:46] Let's make that our focus.

[00:23:47] Like let's decrease the overall amount of suffering for the most people instead of hyper-focusing on these, I think, sort of distorted, perverted concepts of what happiness looks like.

[00:24:02] Happiness and productivity.

[00:24:03] Those are important in our culture.

[00:24:05] I mean, not just ours.

[00:24:07] Success is happiness, right?

[00:24:09] You can't apply the harm reduction model or models to suicide like you might to other things like addiction or other.

[00:24:17] What's the reduction in harm?

[00:24:19] I would say you can, of course, and you're reducing their pain and suffering and all of those things.

[00:24:24] Where I go with this is, again, going back to like public health and medical models where they are able to drill down and say, okay, this population has this outcome versus this population has this outcome.

[00:24:36] And these are the contributing factors, right?

[00:24:38] They exercise 30 minutes a day or they eat lean meat or whatever.

[00:24:42] So all I have to say is if we really wanted to, we could probably succinctly draw down and figure out those couple of qualitative or quantitative factors that make a sizable difference and somebody's wanting to end their own life.

[00:24:57] Does that make sense?

[00:24:58] Like if we had the real will to do it, we could do it.

[00:25:01] We could figure it out.

[00:25:02] And yet the fact that we don't tells me everything I need to know.

[00:25:06] And I'm sorry to be like super cynical.

[00:25:08] I just feel like if we really wanted to try to figure it out, we could.

[00:25:13] We could figure out, at least pull out a couple of things.

[00:25:16] If we can figure out how somebody can healthily live to be 100 years old, we can figure stuff out.

[00:25:21] We can figure out those factors that make a definitive difference.

[00:25:25] So do you think that the 988, for example, like a Band-Aid, okay, we're doing something.

[00:25:31] And yeah, in some ways it helps.

[00:25:33] I think it's temporary.

[00:25:34] And Shine, you've talked about outsourcing empathy before.

[00:25:38] And I feel like people who call that number want somebody to talk to.

[00:25:41] They want somebody to listen.

[00:25:43] They want somebody to hold space and be in that moment with them.

[00:25:46] And they're calling that number because they don't have any other number to call, to be perfectly fair.

[00:25:51] They don't have a friend or a relative or a lover or a next door neighbor.

[00:25:54] They don't have anybody else in their life who gives two shits.

[00:25:57] And so they're going to call a number and at least after 90 seconds may talk to another human.

[00:26:03] 93 seconds.

[00:26:04] And you're going to hear some music.

[00:26:05] How many people kill themselves in the 93 seconds?

[00:26:08] Six minutes for me when I called.

[00:26:11] Six minutes.

[00:26:12] I was on hold for six minutes before I hung up.

[00:26:17] I mean, I still have the screenshots of like the time because I just kept, I couldn't believe,

[00:26:23] I was obviously not in a good space and I couldn't believe this was real.

[00:26:28] And I would look at my phone and then I would look at my watch and I was like listening to the music.

[00:26:35] And occasionally a recording would come on and remind me that they can hear.

[00:26:41] And that if I am a veteran, I can press one.

[00:26:45] You know, it was just this stuff.

[00:26:47] I couldn't believe it was real.

[00:26:49] And finally at six minutes, that was it.

[00:26:52] That would push me closer to the edge if that was me on the phone.

[00:26:55] Yeah.

[00:26:56] Anyway, that was two years ago.

[00:26:57] I don't know if it's gotten better since then, but that was awful.

[00:27:01] But at that time I was reading a bunch of, I can't remember what it was, but online I was searching up to find out if there were other people that had had that experience.

[00:27:10] And there were a lot.

[00:27:11] And you called again, right?

[00:27:13] What happened then?

[00:27:14] Didn't have to wait that long.

[00:27:16] I think somebody answered pretty quickly.

[00:27:18] But then they clearly wanted to get me off of the phone and suggested I maybe go get my nails done.

[00:27:26] Yeah.

[00:27:27] Something like that to make myself feel better.

[00:27:29] After a few minutes ended up saying, Elizabeth, you said you were in bed, right?

[00:27:34] And I said, yeah.

[00:27:35] And he said, why don't you go back to sleep?

[00:27:38] I mean, to this day, that phrase fucking haunts me because that's something that I always think in the back of my mind, the world just wants us to go to sleep.

[00:27:52] They don't want us to face reality.

[00:27:55] They want us to just put on our mask and fake it.

[00:27:59] And those were his last words to me before I just said, thank you, goodbye.

[00:28:06] I wouldn't call that.

[00:28:07] After that, I was like, there's no way I'm ever recommending that to anybody ever.

[00:28:11] Then after that was when I started working at Comprehensive Healthcare with the suicidal youth.

[00:28:17] I told them all the time.

[00:28:18] I was like, call me.

[00:28:20] Don't call that number.

[00:28:21] Well, and I want you to sit in that space of what we just unpacked is that we are fearful of being put into the system.

[00:28:29] That in and of itself should be a huge red flag for the system.

[00:28:33] But the people who are supposed to utilize your services are afraid to utilize your services.

[00:28:39] That's a problem.

[00:28:40] Any other industry.

[00:28:42] Again.

[00:28:42] There'd be like a meeting.

[00:28:44] And someone would say, you know what?

[00:28:46] This isn't working out as we planned.

[00:28:48] We're going to make some changes.

[00:28:49] And you could argue they did.

[00:28:51] Of all the things to be afraid of, this is the one where you'd be like, oh, the last thing we want is to create more fear.

[00:28:57] More trauma.

[00:28:57] If the fucking drive-thru in McDonald's is slightly inefficient, they pour money, time, resources into that just to make it a tiny bit faster.

[00:29:11] It's like a well-oiled machine, that fucking thing, which I rarely go through.

[00:29:16] But I happen to go through today because I didn't buy coffee and I had to get coffee.

[00:29:20] So I was in.

[00:29:20] I was like, man, this shit is like, pot-a-pop, order, boom, go to the window, boom, card, boom, done, window, drinks, goodnight, goodbye.

[00:29:28] And I'm not trying to compare getting coffee to a, you know, being suicidal.

[00:29:32] Of course, they're very different.

[00:29:33] But if your service delivery and the people who are delivering the services are so awful that people don't want to utilize those services or have those experiences.

[00:29:41] And the fact that we continue to sit and be seemingly okay with it.

[00:29:46] And I only say that we're okay with it because we're not making any concerted effort to fundamentally shift that dynamic.

[00:29:52] And that is a problem.

[00:29:54] And I talk to a lot of people who are in that industry, who are therapists and counselors and psychologists and psychiatrists.

[00:30:01] And they also readily admit, yeah, it's screwed up and it doesn't work.

[00:30:04] And it's like, well, then what the boot?

[00:30:06] It's money.

[00:30:07] Again, it's the funding and the ignorance.

[00:30:10] There were so, so after my, my issues with that, I reached out because I was so, yeah, just blown away.

[00:30:18] So I reached out and I was speaking on through email to a professor.

[00:30:23] I can't remember where, maybe it was Wisconsin or something, but at a university that it was doing his doctorate study in researching the suicide hotline.

[00:30:33] So he did get back to me and he was telling me that really it's just about the money.

[00:30:41] Like even getting funding for his research for the years has been terribly difficult, but he was the one that told me things were about to change.

[00:30:51] He was the one that had said very soon coming down the pipeline is this 988 and it's going to be a big change.

[00:30:58] And, you know, hopefully people won't have to wait that long.

[00:31:01] You know, they won't have what I described was like the earliest Muzak version that had like, you know, back in the early eighties, like when you would call the bank and or something, it was just horrible.

[00:31:15] And he was making all these assurances that it was going to get better, but that it was only because certain funds at that time had been allocated, but that he, he's like, I don't know what's going to happen after that.

[00:31:28] I don't know how it's going to actually continue to get implemented.

[00:31:31] There's this money now it's, we're making this progress, but we have no idea where the money is going to come from to keep it going or to correct the, you know, changes that are going to inevitably need to be implemented.

[00:31:44] It said to you, we won't have to wait that long.

[00:31:48] The thing, the question that popped into mind is wait that long for what?

[00:31:52] For somebody to answer the phone or for somebody, you know, he was talking about it being so many volunteers and the, you know, he was talking about their like often students.

[00:32:03] You're employing or asking for people not to make money at all by doing this.

[00:32:08] That is a sign that no one gives a fuck.

[00:32:11] Like that's one way we measure things fair or not moral or not is we pay them money.

[00:32:18] So, okay, you're young and we're not going to pay you money.

[00:32:21] So you'll give us a few hours a week.

[00:32:23] We're going to tell you all the language you can and can't use.

[00:32:25] That's fair.

[00:32:25] Okay.

[00:32:26] Who are you waiting for?

[00:32:27] What?

[00:32:28] You can make a hundred calls and you're going to get a similar thing.

[00:32:31] Some will be better than others.

[00:32:32] I told you I was on the crisis text line thing for a while, right?

[00:32:34] I did that.

[00:32:36] I mean, it was tech.

[00:32:36] So that's also really weird.

[00:32:38] It probably skewed towards younger just because it was text.

[00:32:41] I mean, there's only so many ways to do this.

[00:32:43] The whole model, like, what do you do?

[00:32:44] Yeah, no.

[00:32:45] I mean, I'm here for you.

[00:32:46] Tell me what's going on, right?

[00:32:47] You ask them at risk.

[00:32:49] They're going to lie if they're smart because they know if they don't, maybe, maybe they won't

[00:32:53] lie, but like, so then what's the conversation?

[00:32:55] And you have 15 minutes by 15 minutes.

[00:32:58] You got a manager.

[00:32:59] Hey, 15 minutes.

[00:33:00] There's like a red thing.

[00:33:01] Finish up.

[00:33:02] All right.

[00:33:02] So what are we talking about?

[00:33:03] We're just, I mean, it's like any good conversation with any human ever.

[00:33:07] That's what we're doing.

[00:33:08] That's cool.

[00:33:08] Hung up.

[00:33:09] Now what?

[00:33:10] There's nothing.

[00:33:11] It's coming.

[00:33:11] It's crazy.

[00:33:12] I don't have an answer.

[00:33:12] It's just like, I don't know.

[00:33:14] I have a little spiel to share regarding that too.

[00:33:16] One more thing.

[00:33:17] So it was right after that period of time where I just got really determined that somehow

[00:33:22] I was going to be some part of how this was going to change.

[00:33:26] And so this was before chat GPT was a thing.

[00:33:30] And I had gone, I found out about OpenAI and I was trying to learn coding so that I could

[00:33:37] start my own app because my goal was that I would have my own app for people.

[00:33:43] I mean, as a health coach, maybe or something, but for people who were having a crisis and thinking

[00:33:48] about taking their own lives that they could use this.

[00:33:52] So then the next year, chat GPT kind of started, the earliest model started happening.

[00:33:57] I was able to have way more engaging.

[00:34:01] So I would pretend I was vetting it out.

[00:34:03] So I would go through OpenAI and I would, I was kind of creating this little model and

[00:34:08] they were working with me and I was having these conversations that I was getting responses

[00:34:12] to instantly from a bot that were a thousand times superior to any human I had actually ever

[00:34:21] spoken to when I was in distress.

[00:34:23] And I was not going easy because I've been there so many times.

[00:34:27] It was easy to be like, no, I really want to fucking die.

[00:34:30] I have a gun.

[00:34:31] I want to, you know, like, and I'm getting back these immediately caring and in-depth

[00:34:37] responses from a robot.

[00:34:39] Not a robot, but.

[00:34:40] I have to chime in because you're not going to believe this.

[00:34:42] I tried to do the same thing just out of curiosity, but I must've been doing it after

[00:34:48] you had already tried this experiment because at the time I tried it, it shut it down.

[00:34:53] It wasn't allowed to interact at all.

[00:34:55] Yeah.

[00:34:55] Yeah.

[00:34:56] Yeah.

[00:34:56] They quickly got on.

[00:34:57] And I was living.

[00:34:58] Because it started going off.

[00:34:59] It went off the rails.

[00:35:00] I think in a recent podcast episode, I, in the intro, I said something about how I was

[00:35:05] trying to find a new logo.

[00:35:08] I'm not good at logos.

[00:35:09] Okay.

[00:35:10] And I was putting it in chat GP because they now have like, you can make pictures.

[00:35:13] And I don't know what the prompt was.

[00:35:15] I can look it up.

[00:35:16] It was just like, all right, I have a podcast and I want the title to be quote, suicide

[00:35:20] noted, close quote, and a tagline with such and such.

[00:35:23] Use this kind of font and a black and white and a tinge of some other cool color, whatever.

[00:35:28] And it didn't let me, we can't answer this because of such and such.

[00:35:32] I want to look it up because I don't even know.

[00:35:34] I think, I don't know.

[00:35:34] It also prompted me to call 988.

[00:35:38] It's like this.

[00:35:38] I'm just trying to make a goddamn logo.

[00:35:41] I did find chat GPT in general to be incredibly empathetic until you brought up like a trigger

[00:35:48] word and then it would like, and I was, I thought that was really wild that it was actually

[00:35:53] felt like I was talking to an empathetic person.

[00:35:57] It really blew my mind.

[00:35:58] But now I'm just pissed off because you can't fucking, as soon as you say suicide, even the

[00:36:02] robots shut down.

[00:36:04] I know.

[00:36:05] And how is that helping?

[00:36:07] It's like their language policing to the point that you can't even look it up.

[00:36:12] You just get blocked with dumb call 988.

[00:36:15] I almost called 988 last week, by the way.

[00:36:18] And I didn't.

[00:36:19] I mean, truly in distress.

[00:36:21] I'm hoping that doesn't happen again anytime soon.

[00:36:23] But if it does, I will.

[00:36:25] And I will get back to you guys and let you know how it goes.

[00:36:28] I was also thinking, Sean, when you were talking and I think when Deanna was talking to you,

[00:36:32] like similarly, like what at the end of the day, how do you make somebody feel better?

[00:36:37] And how do you like, what's the what's the end game for 988 or for an intervention?

[00:36:42] Or because I was thinking about this today.

[00:36:44] When you're born into Canada or the States or, you know, countries that are sort of similar

[00:36:48] to us where it's really like bred in that if there's a problem, there's an easy fix.

[00:36:53] And if there's not any of the fix, you're not doing it right.

[00:36:56] And also like happiness comes from external factors like the bigger house, the good job,

[00:37:02] more money, more trips.

[00:37:04] Like we're really inundated with messaging that happiness is attainable on a 24-7 basis

[00:37:11] and that it comes from things.

[00:37:15] And if you're like, I worry for the 16 year olds and like the younger segment that they're

[00:37:21] really getting that messaging.

[00:37:22] I was born in 1968.

[00:37:24] So I grew up like, you know, the internet didn't happen until I was well past the stage that

[00:37:31] my, I don't know, the messaging that people get slammed into them from day one now is happiness

[00:37:38] is a 24-7, it's attainable 24-7 and there's easy fixes for things.

[00:37:44] And everything comes from external factors, big house, good job.

[00:37:48] If you're, if you don't feel good, you're doing something wrong.

[00:37:53] Whereas, you know, you get, as the older you get, the more you realize it's, you know, it's

[00:37:57] this, that's how it's supposed to be.

[00:37:59] That's normal.

[00:38:00] You know, happiness isn't, you don't get happy unless you get sad.

[00:38:03] How do you help somebody that's 20 thinking about self-exit and, you know, has all these

[00:38:09] other external factors that you have no control over, you know, like trauma or living situation.

[00:38:15] There is no housing for anybody.

[00:38:18] All of it.

[00:38:19] Anywhere that I'm aware of, up here or down there, like you can't, nobody can afford to

[00:38:24] live.

[00:38:24] I don't know.

[00:38:25] Now I'm going to get all negative.

[00:38:26] So I'm just going to stop.

[00:38:27] No, I mean, there's like so many angles.

[00:38:29] I keep going back to, if you don't, I don't know what the word is.

[00:38:33] I don't mean like a policy, but if we can't get to a place where we at some point, and I'm

[00:38:40] not saying to be super loose about this, give people the agency to take their own lives,

[00:38:46] this will, I don't think anything's going to change.

[00:38:48] I think that's actually for me, what feels like at the crux of it.

[00:38:50] Because otherwise you're doing all of these things.

[00:38:53] You've got to stay alive.

[00:38:54] You've got to stay alive.

[00:38:55] You've got to stay alive.

[00:38:56] You can't do that.

[00:38:57] You can't do that.

[00:38:57] You can't do that.

[00:38:58] It's complicated, but I just feel like that space gets completely crushed out of people,

[00:39:04] which just generally makes it worse, which will mean there will be people that take their

[00:39:08] own lives.

[00:39:09] And then we can offer them the way to do it so that they can hopefully not put others in

[00:39:14] harm when they do that and maybe not paralyze themselves forever because they actually want

[00:39:19] to die.

[00:39:20] Like, you know, it's the same fucking thing over and over again that I've been saying,

[00:39:23] but, and I know to actually put that into practice would be really challenging and complicated

[00:39:28] and it's not going to happen.

[00:39:29] I know that.

[00:39:30] Why did you have to say that last part?

[00:39:31] Because I think that if, if we could like open that door, even like let's bookmark this

[00:39:39] and say, let's do something really weird, maybe even really dangerous, really controversial.

[00:39:46] Let's make our next discussion.

[00:39:48] Everybody come to the table with their most imaginative, if anything was possible, fantastical

[00:39:58] ideas about maybe a utopia or something, but that includes the freedom to kill yourself

[00:40:05] if you want to.

[00:40:06] In an environment where people aren't going, you know, like that's just a normal thing.

[00:40:11] Like, okay, what would that look like?

[00:40:14] Would it, would your world look like, or maybe there needs to be an age?

[00:40:18] If you just say it's not possible, then it's not possible because you're never going to think

[00:40:22] about it.

[00:40:23] But what if we did?

[00:40:24] We on our, in our own lives can do what we can to help people feel a little better.

[00:40:30] We can do that today.

[00:40:31] And I'm sure you're doing it.

[00:40:32] I'm talking about on a larger scale.

[00:40:34] And as much as I think the four of us here are incredibly passionate and powerful, it's

[00:40:40] just like the compassion fatigue you're talking about earlier.

[00:40:43] Like you're going up against behemoth institutions.

[00:40:46] Like you, I'm sorry.

[00:40:48] Maybe I'm just old and cynical.

[00:40:50] Well, maybe just cynical.

[00:40:51] You're not budging that shit.

[00:40:53] I'm sorry.

[00:40:54] Like it's a hard sell for me to spend time.

[00:40:56] I don't know.

[00:40:57] I, I encourage anyone here to fucking go, go, go do that.

[00:41:01] But like, that is a really tough act.

[00:41:04] And there are people out there, a good number of them who I'm sure in many ways feel exactly

[00:41:09] how we feel.

[00:41:11] No doubt about it.

[00:41:12] Sean, can I come back to something you said earlier?

[00:41:14] You said people are talking and telling people you got to live, you got to live, you got to

[00:41:17] live, but they're not helping them do that.

[00:41:19] They're not giving them the things that people are able to articulate out that they need to

[00:41:24] be able to want to reconnect and want to live.

[00:41:27] You've talked to several people on your podcast that were living in hotels, living in their

[00:41:31] cars, living on the margins.

[00:41:33] And they've articulated, look, look, I do better when I have consistent housing or I have

[00:41:38] consistent food or I have people who give a shit or I, people are able to articulate

[00:41:42] out.

[00:41:42] Like, these are the things that I need to be able to want to live, to be able to kind

[00:41:46] of get reconnected.

[00:41:48] And we as a society are essentially like, well, fuck you.

[00:41:51] We're not going to give you those things.

[00:41:52] We're not going to give you somebody to talk to.

[00:41:54] We're not going to give you a house.

[00:41:55] We're not going to give you a steady income.

[00:41:56] We're not going to give you a safe space.

[00:41:58] You know, we're not going to give you whatever it is.

[00:42:00] And it's so, it's like, well, what the hell?

[00:42:01] What are people, what are supposed people supposed to do?

[00:42:04] Like they're saying, this is what I need.

[00:42:06] And if you want me so desperately to live and to pump money into the economy, then give

[00:42:12] me what I need and I'll continue to buy your stupid widgets.

[00:42:16] Like, and yet we won't.

[00:42:18] And that's where I get really frustrated.

[00:42:20] There's, we've continued to demand that people live and not, you know, take their own lives.

[00:42:25] And yet we're not willing to give them the supports that they're able to articulate out

[00:42:30] that they need.

[00:42:31] Right.

[00:42:31] It doesn't seem fair.

[00:42:32] That seems incredibly cruel to say, you've got to do this.

[00:42:36] And we're not going to give you the things that you're saying that you need to do this.

[00:42:39] What the fuck?

[00:42:40] And the thing I think about is too, like, and this has come up in the podcast.

[00:42:43] You've probably heard this.

[00:42:44] If a lot of this or some of it is due to, in part, Judeo-Christian principles, right?

[00:42:52] I don't understand it.

[00:42:54] I don't know the Bible very well or the other books, but like at the end of the day, it's

[00:42:59] just all about being compassionate.

[00:43:01] Yeah.

[00:43:02] But you also have to remember what was said in the beginning.

[00:43:05] And that's that we're looking at these people, like people who aren't thriving for some reason.

[00:43:11] It's there.

[00:43:12] It's due to their own fault.

[00:43:14] Jesus would not say it's a moral failing.

[00:43:17] He would help them.

[00:43:18] I don't even know if he was real.

[00:43:19] I think he was.

[00:43:20] I don't know much about the guy.

[00:43:21] This is just shit I've heard.

[00:43:23] Maybe I'm wrong.

[00:43:24] Nobody follows Jesus.

[00:43:25] I'm sorry, but nobody that's making, they're not.

[00:43:28] They don't.

[00:43:29] It's a lie.

[00:43:30] But the idea of modeling your behavior after someone who is compassionate is not a bad idea.

[00:43:36] Right.

[00:43:36] Well, okay.

[00:43:37] So, but maybe we should instead be not afraid to possibly change the paradigm.

[00:43:41] So forget Jesus and forget this failed moral model called Judeo-

[00:43:46] Are you saying that you want me to be the model?

[00:43:48] I'll be the model.

[00:43:49] Start the religion where people can be more compassionate, actually, because it would change

[00:43:54] everything.

[00:43:56] Everything would change if our society had this crazy idea in their head where if people

[00:44:04] weren't happy enough, like they were suffering poorly enough that it would be expected that

[00:44:10] they take their own life, it would change everything.

[00:44:13] So why not just say it's okay?

[00:44:15] Okay.

[00:44:16] And I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's like what Deanna is saying is just admit

[00:44:21] it.

[00:44:21] Admit that this isn't your priority.

[00:44:24] So, okay, maybe that's the first step and nobody wants to admit it because everyone wants

[00:44:28] to pretend they're actually a good person and actually cares.

[00:44:31] But when we can break through that, then the next step is, okay, so since we don't, what are

[00:44:35] we going to do?

[00:44:36] Maybe the most compassionate thing to do then would be to let them take their own life.

[00:44:40] Okay.

[00:44:41] Then what comes after that?

[00:44:42] Now we're living in the reality where, all right, we've said that maybe the most compassionate

[00:44:46] thing to do is let these people who are suffering and don't want to be here and aren't being

[00:44:50] supported actually in their own life, something's going to change.

[00:44:55] Then everybody would have to reposition themselves and deal with the fact that people are offing

[00:45:00] themselves all the time.

[00:45:02] And then maybe they wouldn't anymore because everything would change.

[00:45:05] But that's my utopia.

[00:45:07] But also the idea that the goal is 0%, it's like, come on.

[00:45:13] People have always taken their lives.

[00:45:15] The idea that we're going to create anything ever, you have to accept that that's going

[00:45:20] to happen once in a while at a minimum.

[00:45:22] When people are working two jobs and they're going through all the shit they're dealing

[00:45:27] with, they don't have time to help the neighbor who's struggling.

[00:45:30] Part of it's just systems and part of it's just having a really, really big hundreds

[00:45:36] of millions of people that live in the United States, right?

[00:45:39] Like 21,000 people died by homicide.

[00:45:42] And then when I'm going on the CDC, it's like over 49,000 people died by suicide.

[00:45:45] So that's more than double the rate.

[00:45:48] Where the conversation started was about suicide prevention, right?

[00:45:51] So I think we're asking the questions, how committed are we as a country, and I argued

[00:45:58] as a species, to truly prevent suicide?

[00:46:01] And Sean, you kind of wrapped up with, is that a reasonable goal to have zero suicides?

[00:46:08] And Elizabeth, to tie that in, is that really honoring people's decisions?

[00:46:13] If that's truly the way that they would like to exit this planet, right?

[00:46:18] Because nobody else gets off this rock any other way.

[00:46:20] We all die.

[00:46:20] It's an inevitability.

[00:46:22] It's interesting to me that people can put a lot of thought and energy and intentionality

[00:46:28] around other major life events, right?

[00:46:30] Where do you want to have your baby?

[00:46:32] Where do you want to get married?

[00:46:33] Where do you want to go to school?

[00:46:34] Where do you want to build your house?

[00:46:36] But something as profound as, how do you want to exit this life?

[00:46:40] And people don't want to allow space for that conversation.

[00:46:44] And it's not just around suicide.

[00:46:46] It's around all kinds of other things, right?

[00:46:48] If you're having a terminal illness, if you're, you know, whatever it is, people don't want to talk about those rituals and create, you know, space around allowing that to happen in a way that is dignified, is safe, is effective.

[00:47:06] It's really allows the person to share their personality through that experience, right?

[00:47:12] Because you can imagine it could be really beautiful.

[00:47:14] Like, this is the music I want to play.

[00:47:15] And this is the, you know, incense I want you to burn.

[00:47:18] Or this is the whatever.

[00:47:19] This is the people I want to be in the room, right?

[00:47:20] Like, think about how beautiful that could truly be if we allowed for those things to happen.

[00:47:26] I think the person who is having that experience would really feel heard and valued.

[00:47:31] And that, in and of itself, may be the tipping point that allows that person to maybe reverse that decision and say, you know, actually, maybe I'll stay around for a couple more years just to kind of see how it goes.

[00:47:43] Yeah, we're afraid to talk about death.

[00:47:45] Nobody wants to face the fact that we're all going to fuck a knife.

[00:47:48] I mean, step one is having the ability to have the conversation.

[00:47:51] And maybe that conversation is like, what songs do you want to hear?

[00:47:55] Who do you want to be in the room?

[00:47:56] But the fact that you can't even have step one of the conversation is part of the problem.

[00:48:00] And if step one to you means calling 988, that's, it's already stopped.

[00:48:05] Like, you're not, the hopefulness is gone, apparently.

[00:48:08] I've never called that, that resource.

[00:48:10] We do have it in Canada.

[00:48:12] I did take a quick Google and we do have it.

[00:48:14] Well, I'll be working on my utopia, starting by finding more people who are willing to talk about beautiful death and how it can be, you know, a lovely, inviting experience.

[00:48:27] Like, I want, I have this little idea, like, we have everything on, you know, our phones now.

[00:48:34] And, like, we could be compiling.

[00:48:36] I was, I thought about this.

[00:48:38] I was like, I could have this job if I was really interested in this.

[00:48:41] And I would say, hey, I'll take all your pictures and all your favorite stuff.

[00:48:46] And I want to create this whole beautiful tribute to be played at your funeral, whether you want it to be at the park or you want it to be.

[00:48:54] And it can be sent out to all your friends or family.

[00:48:57] And it can be all of your favorite things and create, like, this really cool, beautiful video.

[00:49:02] And you can die however you want.

[00:49:05] It'll be a beautiful thing that you made the choice about.

[00:49:09] And we're supported by your loved ones in.

[00:49:14] And they have this wonderful thing to keep forever.

[00:49:17] But I was thinking of what you were talking about on the podcast with the pink and purple pill, though, lately.

[00:49:23] Like, I really struggle with advocating for choice and never telling somebody what they should and shouldn't do.

[00:49:30] But I also think if I had the means, an easy means, I wouldn't be here multiple times over in my history.

[00:49:39] So I do struggle with people having access to an easy way out.

[00:49:45] Yeah.

[00:49:45] And I think some people, when I've asked them that question, respond kind of like that.

[00:49:50] No, I don't know.

[00:49:51] That's a good point.

[00:49:52] But I also think people deserve to die with dignity.

[00:49:55] Absolutely.

[00:49:55] A thousand percent.

[00:49:56] And people deserve their choice.

[00:49:58] But it's a real strange how it sits in my brain.

[00:50:02] Because it's like, if I wouldn't be here.

[00:50:04] Maybe I should make the pink and purple pill taste really bad and be like, almost impossible to swallow.

[00:50:10] It's doable.

[00:50:11] But you really have to want it.

[00:50:13] It's like, it's the size of a fucking, like, orange.

[00:50:16] What I want is a pink and purple pill that gives everybody affordable housing, affordable housing, their fucking affordable food.

[00:50:24] Like, just baseline.

[00:50:26] I just would like everyone to have a fucking baseline life.

[00:50:30] Right.

[00:50:30] But do you think people would still want, there would still be people who are suicidal?

[00:50:35] Yeah.

[00:50:36] I think there would be less.

[00:50:37] I feel like there would be less.

[00:50:38] There would be less.

[00:50:39] And because the goal isn't necessarily, because when you try to prevent it entirely, you don't need to.

[00:50:44] But often we do these perverse things.

[00:50:46] But if you can accept that some people will kill themselves, I think you can generally move to like, let's call it, I don't know if it's technically harm reduction.

[00:50:54] But you're talking about, I mean, everyone's brought this up.

[00:50:56] You're right.

[00:50:57] Baseline.

[00:50:57] I think if people absolutely at housing, decent food, and maybe one other thing I'm not thinking of, I think the suicide rates drop by like 30, 40%.

[00:51:06] Yeah.

[00:51:06] I don't know.

[00:51:07] I just like, because when you brought up the signal group, there's a, you know, there's a couple of people on there that are struggling and they're just struggling with like basic.

[00:51:14] I was saying decent food.

[00:51:16] Health care.

[00:51:18] Reasonably priced slash free and non cluttered.

[00:51:22] Yeah.

[00:51:22] Yeah.

[00:51:23] You might have to make some calls and deal with bullshit.

[00:51:25] I get it.

[00:51:25] You're not living on, but you can't have a system that it's so complicated for people.

[00:51:29] They're just not going to do it.

[00:51:31] So I think it was interesting that you were talking about extrinsic things.

[00:51:35] Those were all like your housing, your food and your health care.

[00:51:38] Okay.

[00:51:39] Add another, because I just think it's all, I think it's all fucking delusional.

[00:51:42] I, I honest to God, do not think, I think it would even out.

[00:51:46] There would be a period of time and the quality of living and the quality of life would come up.

[00:51:51] But, but humans suffer from something called hedonic adaptation.

[00:51:57] It does not matter.

[00:51:58] But policies can help with housing, food and healthcare.

[00:52:02] It's a little harder to have a, like, it's hard to institute purpose.

[00:52:05] Yes.

[00:52:06] You can do things from when a kid is born up and that's community and other thing.

[00:52:12] And yeah, you can do all of that.

[00:52:13] But that's like, I was just thinking more like, all right, within a year there should be a job.

[00:52:18] And this job is not a therapist or a counselor, but it does overlap with some fields.

[00:52:23] The job should be a professional listener.

[00:52:26] They should be paid well.

[00:52:27] And every community should have a bunch of them.

[00:52:29] Some of them, it's literally their job, eight hours a day, five hours a day.

[00:52:33] I'd prefer like four hours a day.

[00:52:34] I think that's a better way to live life.

[00:52:36] If after every fucking call to 988 that they got off and they asked somebody with your permission,

[00:52:42] can I send a professional listener?

[00:52:44] Fine.

[00:52:44] Use another name for it.

[00:52:46] I know it's clunky.

[00:52:47] Are you cool with that?

[00:52:48] We can send somebody over to your house within an hour.

[00:52:50] Or if you want, tomorrow, next day, we have an appointment for you.

[00:52:54] The suicide rate drops.

[00:52:55] You're right.

[00:52:55] Policy can only go so far.

[00:52:57] But I think if we have this cultural shift where we normalize conversations and people

[00:53:03] actually legitimately say, I'm really glad you're here today.

[00:53:06] I was thinking about the conference that we all were at together and those two, the three

[00:53:11] lovely humans that did the presentation.

[00:53:14] And I looked at them and I thought, I'm really glad that you're still here.

[00:53:18] I'm really glad that your suicide attempt was not successful because what is being created

[00:53:23] in this room is only possible because you're still on this planet.

[00:53:27] And I think if people articulated that out more and people heard that and were receptive

[00:53:32] to that, I think that also could shift.

[00:53:35] If somebody looked at me and said, I'm really glad you're still here.

[00:53:39] Your life matters.

[00:53:40] And this thing is really important only because you're here.

[00:53:44] I think that shifts a lot of stuff for a lot of people.

[00:53:48] Well, it's like it goes from like a shame-based thing to a non-shame-based or opposite of shame-based

[00:53:53] thing.

[00:53:54] This is why we should start a cult.

[00:53:56] Maybe the anti-suicide cult?

[00:53:58] Is that what you want?

[00:53:59] No.

[00:53:59] Or suicide cult?

[00:54:01] It's not going to work.

[00:54:02] I'm doing my part and I'm okay with it.

[00:54:04] I'm good.

[00:54:05] And you all are too.

[00:54:06] I just got a new job working with our provincial police up here and it's opening my eyes.

[00:54:12] I didn't realize how many mentally unwell people there are that are just walking around functioning

[00:54:20] because there's a lot of calls for service from people who you think everything is okay

[00:54:27] and then the conversation will take a hard left and they'll start talking about people being

[00:54:32] controlled by electronic devices.

[00:54:35] Usually if I'm interacting with someone who appears to be mentally unstable, there's

[00:54:40] concurrent disorders going on.

[00:54:42] There's addiction.

[00:54:43] But this is like just straight up people that are mentally unwell, like diagnosable, you know,

[00:54:50] walking around with nowhere to go.

[00:54:53] Like they have nowhere to go.

[00:54:54] We don't have like asylums.

[00:54:56] We don't have...

[00:54:57] Some of them probably live with their parents.

[00:54:59] Some do live in the homeless shelter.

[00:55:01] Some, you know, but they're walking around existing and that it's really been kind of

[00:55:06] an interesting experience this past month.

[00:55:07] It's not what I expected.

[00:55:09] There's a lot of things I knew going into the job that are occurring that I expected.

[00:55:15] But that was just something I never thought about.

[00:55:17] And I don't interact.

[00:55:19] I don't see it.

[00:55:20] And now that I'm seeing it more often, it's kind of surprising.

[00:55:24] Elizabeth, new stuff?

[00:55:25] Okay.

[00:55:26] Okay, I just started a podcast and I'm super excited about it, but I don't want to jinx

[00:55:30] it.

[00:55:31] It's called Resiliency Reconsidered.

[00:55:34] So hopefully I'll get my first episode up this week.

[00:55:37] And then I already have a couple other people that have agreed to have a conversation with

[00:55:43] me.

[00:55:43] And I'm just trying to look for the sort of surprising ways, because in some ways, resiliency

[00:55:50] can...

[00:55:51] It's taken on this mythical form, what it's supposed to look like.

[00:55:55] And you're resilient.

[00:55:57] And I don't know.

[00:55:58] It's complicated.

[00:55:59] And I just want to hear people how they're surviving while they're also not thriving.

[00:56:05] Right.

[00:56:06] I love that.

[00:56:07] That is...

[00:56:08] I think that's a great concept.

[00:56:09] What is your memoir title?

[00:56:11] Learning to Live with Wanting to Die.

[00:56:14] I think that's a great title, but I want to hear the subtitle because that's where I'm not

[00:56:19] sure.

[00:56:20] Surviving, not thriving.

[00:56:21] I mean, that's how I've learned to live with not dying, is I have to accept that it's just

[00:56:28] fucking survival.

[00:56:29] And it's not of the fittest, because I'm sure as fuck not the fittest.

[00:56:33] So I am surviving and I'm not thriving.

[00:56:37] Before we leave, Deanna, do you have your memoir title ready?

[00:56:40] If not, I need to know why.

[00:56:41] I do not have a memoir title ready.

[00:56:44] Who the hell would read it?

[00:56:45] But nobody's even writing it.

[00:56:47] We're just coming up with the title.

[00:56:49] Yeah.

[00:56:49] I just don't think people give a shit about my life.

[00:56:52] And so I wouldn't write one.

[00:56:55] They would after you die.

[00:56:57] That's one of those weird things about life, right?

[00:56:59] Like nobody gives a shit.

[00:57:01] And then suddenly you're dead and everyone's like, oh my God.

[00:57:04] Nope.

[00:57:05] Not in my family.

[00:57:06] As soon as you die, people don't even speak your name.

[00:57:09] It will be like I didn't even exist.

[00:57:11] And I have a sister who completed suicide.

[00:57:13] It doesn't matter your cause of death.

[00:57:15] You just disappear.

[00:57:16] I struggle with people coming, trying to hang out with me now when I am young, healthy,

[00:57:20] and have a bit of money in my pocket.

[00:57:22] Like they're not going to want to be around me when I'm old and decrepit.

[00:57:25] And I've got like $2 and a potato to my name.

[00:57:27] And they're not going to think about me when I'm dead.

[00:57:29] Which again is part of my reason for wanting to end my own life.

[00:57:33] Because I'm like, do you want to give a shit?

[00:57:35] I really like potatoes.

[00:57:43] In my pocket.

[00:57:44] Fuck off.

[00:57:45] Sharon, final words.

[00:57:47] Do you have a memoir title?

[00:57:48] Did we do that together?

[00:57:49] I don't think we did yesterday or two days ago when we talked.

[00:57:51] Parents, commitments, and connection.

[00:57:53] Did I okay that?

[00:57:55] Nope.

[00:57:56] Say it so like that's okay.

[00:57:58] You don't know how this works.

[00:58:01] Yeah, I do.

[00:58:03] One of the only ways I was able to stay on the planet for about a two-year section,

[00:58:08] maybe a three-year section, is I had to have a carrot and I had to have a commitment.

[00:58:12] So I had to make sure I had something to look forward to and I had to have a commitment.

[00:58:16] So I'd be like, okay, I got tickets to go to this show on next Saturday.

[00:58:23] And I told my mom I would come over and do something.

[00:58:26] So I was constantly doing this leapfrog, a carrot and a commitment, a carrot and a commitment.

[00:58:31] But then in the last like three years or so, I've gotten a lot of connection with different people.

[00:58:37] So it's carrots, commitments.

[00:58:39] I had carrots and commitments.

[00:58:40] And that kind of kept me not thriving, but surviving.

[00:58:45] And carrots and commitment and connection.

[00:58:47] And now I'm actually like, I'm reasonably okay.

[00:58:50] I'd buy it because I would think it would be full of humorous, like sarcastic, dark stuff.

[00:58:55] Kind of like there's one title that I'm glad my mom died.

[00:58:58] I'm like, I love that.

[00:59:00] Yeah, but you know what, Sean?

[00:59:02] She would pick it up and she would look at the back and then she'd get interested in.

[00:59:06] And my book would fall off the shelf.

[00:59:08] Your book with no words in it?

[00:59:12] It's contemporary art.

[00:59:14] You need to write the memoirs book.

[00:59:16] Like you need every page should have like the memoir title that you came up for for your guests.

[00:59:22] And you can sell it as a fundraiser for Suicide Condit.

[00:59:25] Genius!

[00:59:26] Anyway, cats, thanks so much.

[00:59:28] And we'll talk soon.

[00:59:32] As always, thanks so much for listening.

[00:59:35] All of your support special thanks to Deanna, Elizabeth and Sharon.

[00:59:39] Thank you, ladies.

[00:59:40] If you are a suicide attempt survivor and you'd like to talk, please reach out.

[00:59:44] Hello at suicidenoted.com on Facebook or X at Suicide Noted.

[00:59:49] You can check the show notes to learn more about the Suicide Noted podcast,

[00:59:53] including our membership and our training.

[00:59:56] And that is all for episode number 242.

[01:00:00] Stay strong.

[01:00:01] Do the best you can.

[01:00:02] I'll talk to you soon.