Rocky in Maryland

[00:00:00] I love deeply and I love profoundly and I could never ever look at a person and ever think you're not worthy of your tomorrows and so it even makes me sad to think that I cannot anchor that in for myself.

[00:00:51] So one of my goals with this podcast and some other related initiatives is to have more conversations and hopefully better conversations with survivors in large part to help more people in more places hopefully feel a little less shitty and a little less alone.

[00:01:17] Now if you are an attempt survivor or eye dater and you'd like to talk please reach out it's real simple I'd love to talk with you really I would hello at suicidenoted.com you can learn more about this podcast at suicidenoted.com as well as on Apple and Spotify social media if you have any questions or comments or concerns or curiosities email me reach out to me on social media I should say there are a couple of projects that are shelved but I'm still wanting to move forward with one is an audio documentary

[00:01:47] slash art installation the other is a collection of anthologies so if you my lovely loyal listener know anybody in the publishing industry or the filmmaking industry please let me know I'm building a small team together to start brainstorming these ideas I really appreciate that finally we are talking about suicide here on this podcast my guests and I don't hold back so take that into account please before you listen or as you listen but I do hope you listen because there is so much

[00:02:17] today I am talking about suicide to learn today I am talking with Rocky lives in Maryland and she is a suicide attempt survivor hey Rocky hey how are you Sean I'm doing okay how are you doing good good where are you um I'm in Maryland how did we find each other you know I you've been on my radar for a really long time thank you you started in 2020 I had released a book then and I was really trying to do community organizing

[00:02:48] around um mental health conversations and so I was just looking at the platforms that did that people who did that and I remember you coming up and I remember at that time like uh I think I hadn't reached out but then more recently I was like I remember this podcast like this is something I want to talk about I I do talk about mental health openly um and I do talk about my past with suicidal ideation but I think what prompted me to like want to talk

[00:03:18] about it more in depth right now is the fact that I have after managing it really well for years I have started to experience chinks in my own armor I'm really committed to being honest about mental health and um to do that I have to model being honest with myself and the people around me not everybody not everybody does that so that's right honorable choice chinks in the armor we already have a potential memoir

[00:03:48] title even though you already have a book what's your book called yeah it's called a breath too late and hang on is it a memoir it isn't it's actually it's a novel it is really inspired by my experience growing up in a domestically violent home and with depression and suicidal ideation and it was really the first time that I held the truth of my experiences because I had kept them secret my entire life so

[00:04:18] it was a very cathartic thing for me writing journaling all of that has been essential in my own mental health journey but also in creating community around yeah topics by the way when was that book published so it was published in 2020 so when I first you first came onto my radar but it went out of print last year so I am republishing it on my own this year good for good for you for writing a book that's not an easy thing to do

[00:04:48] it's easier to tell me well I don't I can't say this for sure but it's certainly less time consuming to talk to me for an hour or two then these conversations you've heard the podcast yes you've heard at least a few episodes yep my guests and I and they know this from the get-go are very open very honest I assume they're being honest I know I can't I don't they might be fudging some facts or embellish

[00:05:10] right benefit of the doubt there will be people though rarely has this come up with anyone reaching out to me there will be people that say that kind of openness and honesty and especially the depth in which you go can be problematic or harmful and I have a lot to say about that and I don't want this conversation to be about that I want it to be about you but because you do that work

[00:05:33] right so I think the biggest thing because I also write for young people is I've been in rooms where they say you know we can't talk about suicide you know with this age group because then it plants it in their head and the thing that I always respond with is I started thinking about suicide when I was 11 years old nobody talked to me about that it's not getting planted it is opening up a conversation

[00:06:01] that otherwise a young person would be a young person would be a young person would be navigating alone and often when spiraling so I do believe though as a writer you know I think it's different when we're in adult spaces because you know we have to trust adults to express their own boundaries and also you know consume whatever they want but as a writer and as someone who has written for young people there are things that I do believe are my

[00:06:30] responsibility to manage a couple of those things is context is I always want to talk about suicide or mental health when there's a context of hope around it there is something worth fighting for in this right and the other piece is I try to I try to shy away from the details of method that's just something that I've chosen for in my writing but I don't think that censorship like I was

[00:07:00] an editor of an anthology around mental health stories one of the stories dealt with self harm and I remember there was a push to try to censor that or to make it off the page but the thing is is these are realities so I do think that holding things with care right and I also think allowing people the option up front to choose if they want to consume that you know if they want to partake if they want to see it

[00:07:27] so there's choice let's use you as an example your choice to participate in this also the way I see it and I'm not saying I'm right but this is the way I thought about it is as a listener hit hit the pause button right yeah podcast just hit stop but you know because this is a podcast it's not just a conversation we're having that on its own right this is something that people will hear and I'm aware of that but I am always pushing towards more open

[00:07:57] yeah we're honest and more raw I always think and sometimes it's not an easy yes or no answer is does this help a listener potentially feel less shitty or less alone it is not will this lead to them not killing themselves those are not the exact same two things though they are very much related right yeah not a big stretch to say when people feel less shitty and less alone they're less likely to harm themselves

[00:08:23] right that's one I think that's a really good nuance I mean I think that's a big piece of it right is to know what the real aim is the natural general trajectory of that aim does good in other ways right in that powerful way but it's not simply you know where we have this one particular piece but I do think the thing about mental health conversations to me and the way you're handling it and I think that's why I really

[00:08:52] resonated with how you resonated with how you built things is because so often we sugarcoat oh yeah and I know I just made a post today because like I said you know after years of doing well I'm struggling and I hadn't made a post like that in a very long time I realized it's like but I want to model honesty like I want to model like it's okay to dream big and be hurting it's also okay to like not know what

[00:09:21] like not have your shit together and I think a lot of times we write or we talk or we share like from the years after when some of that feeling is diluted 100% and we forget like when you're in it it's really fucking hard you and the way you have the conversations that they are so open and are so raw it's gonna help someone that's in that space too right I mean I hope so I think so

[00:09:50] it's an interesting word you chose earlier that you want there to be at least a nugget of hope right in the larger context in these conversations and for me that's a default setting here because you're alive and you showed up yeah people with no hope don't do this yeah I don't have to worry too much at least this is my take of like okay but let's talk about hope

[00:10:17] yeah it comes up sometimes it organically comes up when I ask what's your day like or if we talk again in a year or wherever else in the conversation but it doesn't need to be explicit and it doesn't need to be a quote-unquote recovery story yeah this is my take and it's different than some others and the final thing I'll say because you seem like you're already I'm not trying to convince you you're already on my side you're here I'm very I'm very aware of or pay attention to who's controlling the room

[00:10:46] in these conversations say for example a corporation that has lawyers that are worried about risk mitigation yeah you've already stripped a lot of its potential real authenticity or truth because there will be certain words you're not supposed to use or certain ideas we should steer away from and that might be okay but I want to know why you're saying this your main reason is not getting

[00:11:12] sued and this is what anyone who's trying to change things often has to navigate is do you play within the system to make some good changes but compromise some stuff while you're doing it or do you stay this like outside renegade but broke yeah because I'm I'm a renegade in my own my own way and I'm also

[00:11:34] looking into all the ways to not do it with you know out eating type thing and two of those things for me is mental health but with art I do a lot of that intersection and then the other thing for me is authors publishing and equity a lot of that with if you work within the system there's only so much

[00:11:58] wiggle room you have to be really disruptive 100 you need money so unless you're famous then things change right yeah no I understand I'm in the position right now where I want to do two things and an immersive art exhibit coinciding with the book which would be suicide oriented right and then the other thing is somewhat like a tour but my big hope for the tour is looking into corporate sponsorship

[00:12:25] and that's another piece though right because sometimes there are more red tape to navigate with that more than sometimes I think yeah all this stuff we're talking about it's hard it's painful but a lot of times the pain is the thoughts ricocheting in your head and then eclipsing all of their thoughts but when you let them out there's room sometimes and sometimes people do kill themselves

[00:12:52] yeah and sometimes I think that and it is kind of an industry but I think they do is they say we want to do everything we can prevent from someone doing that and I think okay I hope that includes more than just a hospital stay because suicide prevention includes having a safe home and healthy food and friends all the other things however what they do I think is what is happening if you speak

[00:13:18] that way that increases that 13 year old girl's chance of doing it and we can't have that happen which might be even if that's provable and true I say okay and when you also are doing doing all those things so that that 13 year old girl doesn't have access to that language because it might in your it might tempt her to do something you're also muting a lot of other people so I'm a utilitarian and I don't think and I don't think in terms of zero prevention I think in terms of how to help

[00:13:45] those people and so does that mean that somebody hears this conversation and I don't know does it trigger them it's a possibility but also me saying something about the fact that I'm a New York Mets fan might trigger someone I don't know what triggers you that's a whole big conversation I mean that's even apart from talking about uh suicide and suicidal ideation so my background before writing was behavioral

[00:14:09] coaching and one of the things is to heal to grow to move to be able to change behaviors that often sabotage you in different ways you have to face the thing that hurts right and a lot of times triggers we we can demonize them you know people can demonize them instead of saying this is raw for a reason

[00:14:35] right what what can I what can I learn from in this space I think it's really important to protect yourself and to know yourself and to take care of yourself absolutely and I think it's also how you frame things and how you set up the space yeah this is different than a public presentation yeah this is different than me speaking with more than one person at a time this particular dynamic probably gives me

[00:15:01] more freedom to talk than any other I can imagine anyway Rocky have you tried to end your life I have okay nice nice hard segue there you have just jumping in you um have tried have you tried to end your life on more than one occasion yes both times those attempts were interrupted it wasn't even interrupted by me and I have to be really grateful for these two these two moments where the first time

[00:15:31] I was 12 years old I was so lost and I was so distraught and I was so living in secrets that I just felt like this was my only way out it wasn't something someone talked to me about it wasn't something I saw on TV and that's something we talk about where nobody planted and I know one planted that seed in my head it was

[00:15:54] just this was my way out and I was going through the motions of setting it up and being ready to go and the moment came for me to like step off a chair and I heard my sister calling my name you say stepping off a chair you were trying to hang yourself yes okay your sister calls your name is she older younger she's younger okay she's younger she was a toddler wow it was her little young voice she called out my

[00:16:22] name and it was just this moment of almost waking up to myself because it was for this first moment that I didn't feel lost it felt like I had this tether to the world it is a conversation that I will say for so many of the years after that whenever I thought about hurting myself harming myself

[00:16:47] I thought of her and I thought I could never leave her alone in this world felt like it would be a betrayal to her to leave her behind I think that it she became sort of like this anchor in my life and I do think we have to find those anchors in ourselves right like that's the ultimate that's the ultimate quest for me I will say that that was life-saving a question a couple questions and

[00:17:13] then I'll get we'll get right back to where you left off speculate and I'm imagining you've thought about this at some points during your life don't hear your sister's voice what happens next oh I just I'm gone a lot of times it doesn't work so you might yeah maybe yeah maybe it doesn't work I will I you know I could be not in the world like you said or I could be in the world and then just be facing the aftermath of what an attempt is and what that does you could be brain damaged and in a coma

[00:17:42] right there's a million trajectories right from any single moment and any single choice it can be overwhelming to think about all of them before we really got into this conversation right just chatting beforehand I was talking about how I have for many years managed my depression and suicidal ideation pretty well you know I had my tools I had my techniques I had my ways to move

[00:18:10] through the thoughts or to get out of the spiral and more recently I have found chinks in my own armor it can be very jarring when even though you have that those thoughts pretty constantly you feel pretty solid against them like you felt like you've you've built your fortress you've you have your armor and the moment when you feel like wait there's weak spots in this yeah wait I'm I'm still susceptible to

[00:18:37] falling that can be jarring and that's where I'm at it's important to for me because I feel like these conversations are important is to be honest about where we're at so for years it was my sister's voice right that was sort of my tether uh-huh later it was my my children and my children remain that to

[00:19:00] me now but what I really want to cultivate is a sense of self or an anchor within myself that says I'm worthy of my tomorrows and I think that is a thing that I've always struggled with even when I'm doing on paper or out in the world well uh and and have lots to celebrate yeah there's still this

[00:19:25] undercurrent this feeling of will I make it and am I worthy of making it you know I love deeply and I love profoundly and I could never ever look at a person and ever think you're you are not worthy of your tomorrows and so it even makes me sad to think like that I cannot anchor that in for myself

[00:19:47] like on paper I was always really ambitious so I interned at NASA at 12 entered NPR when I was 14 graduated went to college at 16 it's behavioral coach and you know now I have six book contracts with major publishers and all these different things right on paper I look like I have so much to live for and I do not take any of that for granted but alongside all of that you know growing up I

[00:20:17] was in domestically violent home there was food scarcity there's you know housing insecurity and there was poverty throughout a lot of my young life and where was this most I moved 12 times before I was 12 a lot of bouncing around but most of my life has been centered in the Maryland area I'd have lived in Ecuador I have lived in Hawaii I have lived in Alaska but most of the time has been in the DC metro area

[00:20:46] one of the things is I also had the suicidal ideation I always had that feeling of just being constantly pulled under and so you know I would accept awards or I would sign contracts or I would do all these things and no one in my life knew that was a part of my reality that was a part of my space in my head because I kept it secret well because you haven't surrounded yourself with mind readers exactly I

[00:21:15] kept it secret I did not tell anyone and I didn't want to tell anyone because I was so used to keeping things together for other people that I didn't want to be the burden and that's what I had in my head if I speak about this I am a burden that's what it was in my head that's how I made it feel in my head taking up too much room taking up too much space having needs was a burden I really am in the

[00:21:43] process of unlearning all of that my own way through like my the the book that I wrote that really started or forced me yanked me into the memories that I really had blocked out it was my first opportunity to hold these thoughts hold these memories hold these realities and then as I was getting ready to publish and market it was my first time to share them all right so you're holding so this is a

[00:22:08] almost two decades of holding on and now because of the book you're putting some of these ideas on to a laptop or a notepad or somewhere yeah and I I mean I remember when I was writing and we're drafting the book and then I started talking online because I started sharing like the realities of what my childhood was like but I I did it from a frame of I hurt in this way if you hurt in this way like

[00:22:35] there's hope there's there's reasons to hold on to tomorrow and I'm constantly seeking out those reasons and I started to get community around that because there were other people that were hurting and when the book came out my inbox was just flooded with people saying I felt seen for the first time and that always made me very emotional because it was the first time I felt seen too and you're kind

[00:23:02] of preaching to the choir here because I get those that is why your work really resonated with me is because you're willing to open up these conversations that others would feel too uncomfortable to hold and that's a big piece right then we we talked about this where people sometimes don't want to talk about suicide because they fear like it's going to plant the seed into a person's mind one right

[00:23:29] one of many reasons one of many reasons right and then two they want to sugarcoat it they want to sanitize it but in reality if we're not willing to be raw and open about these things and the people that are hurting are never going to feel like they have a place that's what I loved about these interviews that you do is that you're willing to go there and then you're really to stay in that with them

[00:23:57] it's weird to me that not everybody does this not a podcast just like when someone says I get really uncomfortable when someone's talking about suicide I can I can hear that I actually don't get it like I'm like I don't understand what the problem and to the point where I don't actually typically say that because I'll just come off as a jerk but what I mean is I'm like programmed a little a little differently than some people because I just feel like why in the world would I want not want to hear more about that moment when you were 12 of course I do why in the world would I not ask a question

[00:24:25] or two or nine more about that experience like to me one it's just fascinating to me like I just it's just I'm a curious guy especially with this so you lead with that but there's this whole other part that let's use the word trigger if we can or another word like it where it affects people in such a way where they do all this stuff and they pull back or they deflect the conversation this would be

[00:24:51] somebody that if you were sharing with them the things you go they do all kinds of things I'm sure you've experienced it in your life and I'm just astounded and confused and so that's just something I'm gonna have to accept like I'm just built a little differently maybe it's genetic maybe it's this here I am I'm doing the work so when I think about speaking to others about this stuff I have to be

[00:25:15] really aware that like they are their brains are working differently than when I just say be aware whatever language might be of like how so many even well-intentioned people inadvertently shut somebody down let's just say it was a high-end coaching session and I could actually be really no bullshit with someone I'm like you realize when you do that they're not going to talk to you about that again and they will say what do you mean what did I do yeah I don't see that as shutting down

[00:25:42] this is where we have to have the conversation about what you're doing because you have if you don't get that what you're doing is not creating a space for someone to open up then of course you keep doing it so where do those conversations happen and that's what I'm actually trying to think about in terms of sharing some for lack of a better word knowledge or understanding and then meeting them where they are which is hard and then the other part is you know an industry that actually pays you to do that not just doing it in the community for free because I have to get paid

[00:26:11] well I think the art of listening is something that you must train in yourself like this is paramount this is paramount in one our ability to connect truly authentically with other people not just waiting to you know respond but really listening for me one of the most beautiful things I

[00:26:36] experience is when someone truly bore witness to me just as a whole messy beautiful complicated treacherous you know insert all the above person and then I feel like it is an honor to witness somebody else in their mess and in their beauty and in everything that makes them them I've witnessed it and I've definitely experienced it where people want to micromanage what you share or they want to

[00:27:06] put you in a palatable box and say like this is presentable and this doesn't apply to everyone I've learned and it's surprising is for me it is so clear and obvious and often immediate that when I'm talking to somebody about my stuff that they are doing what I need them to do for me like you call it bearing witness we can call it whatever we want holding space or whatever we want it is a palpable

[00:27:34] massive difference compared to when people don't do it for the people out there who aren't sure if they're doing that for others just reverse it if it's ever and I hope it has been offered to you in your life if not it makes sense you have no model maybe you're not feeling it as intensely as I am but it is so clear and so refreshing and one last thought and then I want to hear more about you I'll probably edit a lot of myself out of this one because I'm talking a lot I know no I'm loving it though bearing witness often is not meaning pure silence

[00:28:04] no and listening does not mean just not talking yeah you can put any other cute adjective you want in front of it to make it a thing core listening active listening radical listening put whatever word you want in front of it the reality is it typically and not always you know sometimes someone has a 10 minute crying vent session and you just need to shut the fuck up fine more times than not it's actually a conversation and where people get into trouble is when they open their mouths

[00:28:31] and they do the things that you started talking about and I referenced as well and they don't get why that is a problem and I understand the work I'm doing here in some ways is different than you talking to your best friend at a coffee shop there are some differences but there's also some overlap absolutely yeah and so okay what do you do now what are you doing when that person's talking like what's in your head like you said something like are you just waiting for your turn to respond

[00:29:00] so how engaged are you when you're just waiting for your turn to respond you're missing most probably what they're saying then when you open your mouth what are you saying because for me I always think of a few things I'm always like tell me more or what do you mean I'm always the clarification guy because we're usually not even having one conversation because you were depression I assume I know what you mean by that it may not be what you mean by that so are we even having the same conversation number one and then number two

[00:29:30] what are you doing with that are you how do you create a space for someone to continue because unless you're a sick ass storyteller or have a great monologue you need an exchange so anyway I'm going to stop that rant but that is where I am like where if people got because we don't teach it tell me where you learn this you want to reduce you want to talk about prevention here this came up in the last conversation I had I can't guarantee this you want to reduce you want to reduce the suicide attempt rate

[00:29:59] that's even attempt rate 10% teach people to have these conversations absolutely I believe in that absolutely believe in that and I think what you talked about too was curiosity yeah being genuinely curious about the other person so like you said like define that for me are we having the same conversation yeah and it's not making assumptions or projections onto the person is really thinking I want to know them

[00:30:29] I want to know what those words mean yeah to them how I'm receiving it is it what they intend for me to receive right that is that depth oh god you're getting me started I don't want to go too off the rock we're getting back to the rocky story but what we're to be seen you have to be willing and you have to see yourself and I think a lot of us especially when I deal with suicidal ideation I don't see myself truly I am I am seeing

[00:30:58] this liver of things and it takes a lot of grace to be able to say okay but what's the rest of me I ruminate I overthink I do all sorts of things I have ADHD like we are we're having a field day in this brain but to be able to say okay this thing that I think is immovable you know I'm shitty I'm a failure I'm this I'm that like all the the evidence list of why my demise is imminent

[00:31:28] uh-huh uh-huh is to say okay that feels really true and that feels absolute but then trying to soften I have and I've I've had this in practice for so long like softening it and say but what's also true and when I say that then I'm trying to create an evidence list that either either negates what I think is the truth the negative thing the harmful thing the painful thing or can coexist with the truth and

[00:31:58] as I'm sort of creating these evidence lists then I can say okay well this may all feel true but a lot of times once I've gone through this process in my head then it feels a little less absolute and I think that's a big thing like for me words and we were talking about really listening and understanding the language not just of you know English Spanish body language but like the language of a person of singularly a person is you have to know the language of yourself and what helps you

[00:32:28] and for me words help me whether it's me writing through a story or if it's journaling or it's creating these evidence lists and I think that's another reason why conversations matter I know I've done this and been shut down and been redirected and known okay they're safe not safe or this is for them or not for them right but as someone that has found it really difficult to open up that you know I did go a couple decades

[00:32:58] without sharing but there were a thousand micro moments where I was stepping towards yes yes yes unburdening myself right like there I bet in those 20 years as you were you know when you're 13 it's different than when you're 23 I bet there were moments where if the right person was in front of you you would have shared something I bet there were moments

[00:33:27] where you gave a hint and it was whatever it was done with it it stopped oh absolutely I don't think you were mute right I was trained and that is very telling because I believe we most humans really want to talk about it you can get that shit trained out of you and you don't talk for the rest of your life yes generally speaking and innately I think people want to talk about their stuff so it's an interesting weird almost paradox

[00:33:57] that we're so bad at like not letting people do that even though often the very person who's not letting you do that also wants to do that mhm right how is it that we don't learn this so I think math is very important and I think learning how to think is very important and learning about American history or whatever history Mexican history is important those things are important it's fascinating to me unless you're maybe going to like some fancy private school or a Quaker school you're not learning this right

[00:34:26] why not oh I think this is fundamental right I think this is we can go into education system we can go through so many things about what is actually what would actually transform our lives from the inside out this is one of those things um not just for ourselves but for our relationships and for communities and like if communities if people within communities truly honestly listen to each other and had empathy and compassion and grace for each other

[00:34:55] society would transform when I think about suicide when I think about mental health I also think about identity right so you talked about like if you've experienced trauma that's going to impact yeah how your mental health manifests how your suicidal ideation sort of comes into play but so like I I'm a daughter of Ecuadorian immigrant so Latino culture and then we had domestic violence in my home we had

[00:35:25] all these different elements at play right so silence was safe and different and different communities like I've I've had conversations about like young people that grew up in rural America you know people in ministry families all these different pieces but like as a Latina mental health was just the silly thing in your head you had to get over for me it was like it didn't have room to expand or to share because it would be

[00:35:55] completely diminished it would be completely tossed aside as irrelevant because get your shit done and then how you don't need to hear that many times before you get the message right exactly like especially when you're if you if you start to develop these things and what was it um there's so many statistics around young people and mental health and suicide right second-leaning cause of death with young people they are getting that training in their development

[00:36:24] yeah coinciding with their brain development yeah yeah yeah and so what impact does that have moving forward and the thing is that these conversations these moments these micro moments happen every day a hundred percent and we are shutting people down and then we're asking why they don't right and then we do a lot of weird things try to wonder what what okay so just let's like well then just call 988

[00:36:53] and then do this and then action plans and it's like oh man this has been building for 20 years and you just didn't give a shit or you didn't whatever yeah there's stuff that happens boom and there's a crisis and this is rarely what we would call impulsive the actual decision to kill yourself I'm not an expert on this but might feel impulsive but for most people it's not everything's fine and you wake up and you want to kill yourself it might happen

[00:37:22] if they're dead when they don't talk to them this is stuff that builds a lot of these things are it builds exactly it's it's moments that have gathered and piled up and they change they change you they change you and you know everybody is different you know a lot of you know people I've had conversations with other people that have suicidal thoughts but for me one of those you sort of get those core thoughts and then everything

[00:37:52] sort of bleeds out from that or you know has it spider webs out from that for me I have like a couple of core thoughts that are the the biggest like chink in the armor or the biggest destabilizer as I go through my day or my life it's like those thoughts gather evidence as is this real or not real what are the thoughts so for me the thoughts are the main one is you're not enough

[00:38:20] and it's very much like you're not enough you'll never be enough seventh book eighth book ninth book it's irrelevant because you'll never be enough exactly exactly and the thing is like what I have to do is I have to compete with that thought right because that's the core thought that's the like the stabilizing thought that's the thought like all right rocky we're going down and and it can feel like it's gathered you know a sack of rocks to drag me to rock you know

[00:38:50] to the bottom of the sea based off of like what people say and then if you're in unstable relationships like I've been and if you're around people that feed into that then you're just getting ammunition you're just like filling that sack of rocks that's going to drag you down faster oh like if I if my thing is I'm a piece of shit I could go I could tell you all day long how I'm a piece of shit yeah other people think I'm a piece of shit here's this story here's that story yeah yeah yeah what was the other what's the other big thought that you compete with

[00:39:19] you know I think it's really a lesser thought of the first but it's like I will never make it and it's the idea that I will always be seeking and never actualizing or never succeeding or never truly getting where I don't know getting there and the thing about this is right is for me I also have I have like a lot of like the logical stuff in my head right that I'll say well life is a journey

[00:39:49] you're constantly evolving the goalpost moves because you've decided to move that like all that stuff but then it's like when you're stuck in the thought when you're stuck in the spiral when you're stuck in the pain of a thing like that all goes out the window it's like what do I know in my body what does my body feel it's that transference of I need to learn some of these things so they're not it's not data in my head it is there to lean on when I'm falling I have had periods in my life where I did feel stable enough

[00:40:19] like oh I'm falling but I caught myself but I've had more experiences in the last couple of years where I'm like oh shit I'm falling and I'm still falling and it's scary when the things that you usually lean on aren't there to grab you catch you sustain you and so I understand that I have to evolve what those things look like to catch myself and I'm grateful that I have enough life lived to know

[00:40:49] that I have the capacity to learn new things the ability to survive the unsurvivable gives you evidence that you can you got a lot of right brain left brain action going back and forth for sure I got some questions for Rocky's life yes this is about your life not about how you think about things necessarily today but I know they overlap very unstable childhood you said there was domestic violence I'm curious this is a little bit tender but were you part of that were you hit yes

[00:41:18] okay so when so it's not just domestic violence in the home it's like I was I was abused okay right I always say in my home because I felt so much less of the violence than my mother did but she kept it a secret and I learned to as well right and so we're gonna sort of connect some dots here yes at 11 you start thinking about it at 12 you try and without hearing your little sister's voice you may may not be here

[00:41:47] but the next 20 years it sounds like on paper you're a pretty successful person academically um with work and correct me if I'm wrong if I'm using the language that's incorrect tell me that please so I'm regularly ideating mm-hmm and I imagine like everything else there's a spectrum of right to active I also know there's a second attempt your attempt how old were you for that that was recent okay so before we go there yeah

[00:42:16] at some point before this recent attempt and um after the silence stops you start speaking about it yes and that's actually speaking and writing and creating some community and that would have been if my math is correct about 10 years ago mm-hmm yep exactly so that from how you've framed it was mostly a positive set of experiences yeah so I think that the last 10 years

[00:42:46] I was like I still had to deal with suicidal ideation still had to deal with a lot of like hard like life stuff right but I felt like I had tools so even when there was the dip or when there was a spiral or when there was you know whatever I was facing I felt equipped I would say to handle those things when you say tools what do you mean I create my my truth list and my evidence list so whenever I'm like neck deep in the thought or the feeling

[00:43:15] and everything is like on one side of the ledger type thing I go in and I start to write in okay but what's also true about Rocky okay and so that's a piece another piece is writing letters like from my future self to the me today because one of the things that I constantly reflect on is if 12 year old Rocky wasn't here then she would never have met her kids she would never have traveled the world she would never have written books

[00:43:45] she would never have had this experience or that experience and so like every time I had thought about not wanting tomorrow like maybe it wasn't the next day but in the tomorrows that came after something good happened but then when say you're in a moment where your entire sense of self is obliterated then it's it's not like you're doing sort of surgery to sort of suture up things right it's like okay I have to find

[00:44:14] all the pieces of me and try to figure out can they even fit back together and that's when you start to feel like I need more I need more support in this yeah that's when I start to drink more yeah I'm serious like yeah and that's that's a coping that's how people cope yes I mean I find a healthiest choice but it is a choice and it can have some short term benefits and I think that's part of being like for me it's food food is very comforting like everything's shit

[00:44:44] and I feel horrible and tomorrow may not be promised but damn this ceviche is banging it like it is awesome so as you're getting through your 30s you've got your armor you've got your tools you're married with two children and you're doing a variety of things right a lot of them sound really cool and there are some dips so you are I don't know there's probably some word for this where sometimes you're ideating and sometimes you're not it's intermittent ideating we can call it in that time

[00:45:13] and let's even go back to 12 in those 12 22 22 20 something almost 30 years do you come close or is it like enough of a buffer where you're not that close to getting on a chair or something else I think there's moments that I'm close but I feel like I I I I'm just shy of action right like it's like the planning is in place the things are in place but I'm able to pull myself back

[00:45:43] when we have these conversations it's all it's it's all these different steps you know and so I think I got closer to the and so um didn't have the same level of fear when you talk about particularly starting about 10 years ago and writing and talking openly are you saying stuff like you just said to me or is that the part we leave out the piece I haven't actually

[00:46:13] like I haven't talked I talked about like from the the 12 year old yeah bit and I talked about struggling the depth that you just shared no that's the thing it's not a judgment on you at all yeah that is I'll talk about my mental health meaning the understood you we in general and there's myriad reasons why people don't go beyond I understand them mm-hmm uh I completely understand them um it's in many ways a very logical decision

[00:46:42] um but nonetheless it isn't talked about and isn't heard and we actually have this um bit I think before really dove in is when you're talking to somebody that is in the midst of it right when someone's actively suicidal and you're talking about those things sometimes when you have distance like as a person like in those years where I had more distance mm-hmm I feel like

[00:47:12] I was able to share from a place that felt safer I guess like there like even what I was sharing there was a distance in there right whereas being where I am right now I feel how raw it is the constant tug of it I feel like there is this and that's why I reached out to you is there is this desire to be even more raw and more open and more vulnerable because I know that

[00:47:41] there are other people that are also in this same space a lot a lot of people that are in this same space yeah yeah like we're like swept out at sea but like it doesn't I want to keep swimming like let's all keep swimming the weird the word irony but it's not the right word is that you we will never know how many people are suffering in silence because that's the definition of silence exactly

[00:48:11] and I'm going to tell you and it's it's like oh of course you believe this Sean because you have a podcast and you think you're saving the fucking world no I am telling you there are a lot of people who don't think this way at all but there's way more people than you probably think that do when I said my allegiance is to my guest in terms of what we talk about and how we talk about and I'm less concerned about triggering someone out there in Nebraska you should be a grown up if you're listening to this and you can hit pause my goal is not to trigger you right however

[00:48:40] where this flips a little bit is I actually think sure guests come on here and some of them feel good about having a conversation with somebody who doesn't judge them and can actually hold space okay pat on my own back I think the bigger bigger value is that people get to hear it while they're doing their laundry while they're driving their car while they're falling to sleep while they're at the gym wherever they do it however they consume it it's getting to hear people like you talk about

[00:49:09] the raw and that's why I lean into it pretty hard yeah and I've made people unintentionally cry I didn't want them to cry but like I will keep digging we're getting into the raw so let's like dig in deep again let's go is um this morning I was spiraling hard and there was a moment where I was like I need to talk to I need to message Sean and say like we need to reschedule there was a moment where I was like no because it is the fact

[00:49:38] that I was in this state or I am in this state that these conversations are necessary not just for myself but for other people that are also hurting and about to jump on a podcast or hurting and about to go into a meeting or hurting and about to do all these things and I think what has happened because this this like sort of time frame of me really struggling has been the last couple of years I was really struggling sobbing you know

[00:50:07] eyes red nose snotty and everything wipe it all off in the car and then go into a you know speaking to a thousand students you know or same thing with you know one day going to a family gathering I'm like all right I'm gonna park over here so that way I can like put my face together and walk into the room and not dragging attention to myself right you make all these decisions to spare others the harshness of your reality yeah

[00:50:36] but then what also does is you deprive other people of who are also experienced harshness to feel like okay wait like I'm there too like I'm hurting exactly and that's why I think you allow yourself to be or holding space for the raw is really impactful not just for the people listening but the people who get to come on and share and thank you for doing that and I would have understood if you needed to reschedule

[00:51:06] by the way also yeah everybody I mean there is a time when you do need to reschedule I mean let me go back two years ago because that seems to be a time when you said that chink in the armor there were more chinks or something with the armor I don't know I remember the exact metaphor was there a particular event or something happened or just sort of slowly developed into something like that so for me it was massive relationship upheaval okay so I'm still in that upheaval it really impacted one my sense of safety my sense

[00:51:36] of self my sense of home my sense of the future all that it was jarring because it was such a out of the blue blindsided situation and it sort of derailed me and I think what happened was the carpet was pulled out from under me and so I didn't have time to brace myself which I had become very good at learning

[00:52:15] things that really impacted and what I thought I wanted and what I also didn't want and it also just really impacted my sense of self because I think I entangled my sense of self so fiercely in a relationship and in my role as wife mother and all these different things right and I think that when I was talking earlier about we have to find anchors in ourselves and not just other people and you know everybody has this but I will say for me as a woman

[00:52:45] with my background the gender roles of like Latino culture all these different pieces right you become very enmeshed in things when that gets pulled away or when you have to redefine what your role is or redefine what you want your role to be or even redefine what that all looks like your sense of self is pretty derailed and you have to reconstruct oh before I always had this very solid sense of self that made me feel you know that

[00:53:15] solid standing whereas I'm in a reconstruction era essentially for myself and so I don't have that that solid footing I'm learning to stand again that's the difference but the thing is luckily even while I'm having these horrible thoughts or I'm in this really negative space or I'm wobbling but I am learning to stand and

[00:53:45] I do not take that for granted because I know a lot of people really struggle to even get to a kneeling position when we're in this state a lot of people try to end their lives that's super wobbly the way you framed or talked about the last two years was with almost no specificity and I'm sure that's a choice you're making so are you protecting people or yes I am I am

[00:54:15] protecting people for a variety of reasons and I know that there's going to be a time where I will be digging into so many the action was blocked so driving on the road

[00:54:46] unbuckling my seat about opening the door on the highway and then somebody pulling me back I was sort of disoriented to myself and to reality and to everything because what they told me was Rocky you know better because I'm always the person that's talking people off that ledge and so and I've always been the person that's held my shit together even when I was in a lot of pain or things were really hard and so I think it was also alarming to

[00:55:15] them to see crossing that line because that was like an immovable line to cross and so for myself it was this wake up call of I'm not okay I one need to be more vocal like I said like my natural inclination is when things get really hard for me I retreat and I've been berated for that like definitely people that love me in my life say you can't do that you know and absolutely I

[00:56:04] can sometimes be embarrassing I am learning and I am feeling the moments the moments I feel steadiest are the moments that I'm feeling honest and I think that that is like why I'm here on this podcast right

[00:56:34] while also writing a new book and while also prepping for book launch and while also doing all these other things yeah like people need to know something Rocky didn't reach out

[00:57:04] to near attempt was in the last month so that means that conversation with your publicist happened within a matter of

[00:57:34] one it was not this past New Year's I'm going on a tangent and I'll come back I forget but not this past New Year's Eve the year prior I did this process of oh it's gonna sound interesting like for people who don't know me well but I'd gone through so much turmoil that year that I did on New Year's Eve like I wrote all the things about what I

[00:58:04] for my own good for my own better all these things and all the pieces of my identity that I wanted to let go of and I

[00:58:34] in pain right I was still really in pain and I had experienced more suicidal ideation that was edging into planning and edging into all these different pieces the thing that I was going to that I'm coming out with is the book about suicide and I have on my camera me tearfully saying on January 1st I think it is really interesting that God gave me this book to bring out into the world which is about a girl who dies by suicide on the

[00:59:04] first page and then is forced to face what is left behind God has given me this book while I am actively needing it and so when I talked to my publicist within the month or two after New Year's Eve I was giving all these people like I want to talk to these people and stuff because I knew I wanted to talk about this stuff and I wanted to be honest what I didn't know is how much I would need it even January 1st December 31st whichever it was how much I

[00:59:50] me I promise but so after the highway event by the way a quick question about that because the suicidal mind I'm curious about it you just boom do it is I mean is it

[01:00:20] severely dismantled as a person and I had somebody that was feeding into that it was not just in my brain I was just uncontrollably crying and we had appointments and everything and I had to I I'm generally very good

[01:00:50] of my ability to get my shit together and then felt also at that point just utterly worthless that's what the feeling I felt like utterly worthless do I even belong should I even try and it wasn't like this bolt feeling it was just almost very like my body was moving and I was just tipping over with it one of the questions I ask people when they're in the act of

[01:01:20] what they'll say is you have to understand I wanted to die or they might use the words for the pain to end which over time almost become the same thing right and some of them are chaotic from what I've been told what people have shared with me more often it's not it's almost like you're following the script and it feels natural one of the things that when we're looking at all this as like mental health advocates or if we want the

[01:01:50] statistics to change at all it's like we need the conversations we need people to have safe homes there's just basic things we need in place to start to minimize the draw of this as the trajectory for ourselves and people don't think about all those nuances like it is a conversation it is a social and it is a community conversation it's not just an individual problem

[01:02:20] it is we are building such an isolated world oh I people have open people having

[01:02:49] conversations openly and honestly on both ends of suicide we suck at it it hasn't changed it's probably getting worse that's how I feel am I doing that to highlight how this podcast is so different that's not my aim it's just I always say it's the industry or the ecosystem should be so ashamed that I'm the guy just let that sit there and I'm glad I've done it well enough because if I wasn't good it wouldn't have lasted six years you're not talking to me

[01:03:19] something's right enough and you know so sure I did it but like why because I I didn't there was nothing out there but why wasn't there anything doesn't need to be exactly this format but really all I was looking for was just really open truth honest no bullshit my bullshit couldn't hear it couldn't find it but why not and still sometimes in some ways now like you didn't there's certain things that we're not talking about or we're

[01:03:49] being a just somebody ready to open up and say everything I still have a job to do and some of that is digging yeah it's not as if they come and they're like no they're closer they they're on zoom with

[01:04:19] me that's way closer than they've been in the past and way closer than most other attempt survivors will ever do not judging I'm just sharing my observations but it's still like the halfway in halfway out I'll talk a little bit about it but not all of it and it's like okay well I'm going to ask you to do more if you

[01:04:54] curious and what does it look like to hold space for hard things that's what you're doing that's what we're doing right here and I feel like I can do that for other people really well you know when people in

[01:05:24] I am endeavoring to be better at that we could clone you man you could just be there for yourself now it doesn't work that way so it's all up in your head and it's all that mess everyone's mess not your mess you know yeah but I think it is it shows the importance of having a lot of people that can do that because a lot of people need it when

[01:05:55] things it's almost like squeezing out the shame that's hidden in those spaces right and I think shame exists where silence exists and the more we're open about things and endeavor to be open about things then we you might

[01:06:24] share things and like you mentioned what are the consequences of the sharing that's why I never think about just talk about it my aim is never the person who's struggling my aim is always at the people around them what are you doing this is what we do we blame the person who's struggling Rocky you didn't okay that therapist didn't work out but there's other therapist okay

[01:06:54] Rocky that medication wasn't good but there's other there's new medication Rocky Rocky Rocky what about the people around Rocky you know everybody's depression is different everybody's suicidal ideation is different I get really tired I get really like every move feels like I am going through you know mud up to my shoulders like it just every move feels like it's such an exertion of effort and

[01:07:24] I remember at one point people talking about like being there for like your friend that suppressed there was this whole thing like like the pep talks and the rah rah and the positive and all this stuff and it was like hey do you need help with laundry like hey like all this stuff is just being cared for I have been really bad following back up with like friends touching base when I know something big is happening and like I have it in my mind

[01:07:53] but then the follow through has been really difficult that's like something that I would have easily done you know it takes literally seconds out of the day right but when every movement feels like such a drain but then what happens then you feel guilty about it feed into like well of course I'm a shitty friend now like of course I'm a blankety blank now you know all that feeds into it and what I'm trying to do is model a little bit of grace for myself like yeah my capacity like my 100%

[01:08:23] usually looks like this right now my 100% does not look like that spoon stuff you right in this moment I've always been a like I I'll force myself through I'll white knuckle it but I think it's because it's been sort of a long time of white knuckling it that now I'm like damn like I cannot white knuckle this

[01:08:53] forever I need to there's sort of like your little bridges to maybe a better moment or a little more clarity or a little more support or whatever but sometimes you need that while I have some really bright moments and while I am working hard on a lot of things right now

[01:09:23] I'm also like the everything else is like what are the bare minimum I can do to get to tomorrow and get to today and that's all I can make room for and even sometimes those things slide I got a bunch of questions for you and these are short

[01:10:06] are you going to write a memoir that is something that I recently considered do you have a title I don't feel free to throw some my way I mean as an author I feel a little bit extra pressure here and you have an agent and a publicist you're already so in the game it'll come to me and I'll let you know but don't go cliche please no you hit me up with ideas I am all for it is your publisher or however that works going

[01:10:36] to change it to make it more marketable what the memoir or the title oh the title oh yeah well titles matter man titles really matter you see I've gone to war for book covers and all this stuff sometimes publishers are really awesome and they work with you and sometimes luckily I haven't been railroaded you you have your own battles with all that so you spend a lot of time writing

[01:11:06] yes I do how many people in the world know that we are having this conversation right now this conversation that we're talking publicist and I think there's a few people that know I'm on a podcast interview right now but they don't know the content that's the point of the question so your publicist does but that I really wanted to share for me this is like my the vulnerable

[01:11:36] like I'm going to have the vulnerability hangover afterwards is I want to share with my readers that I'm having this this will be the most raw they that I feel I get the most response on is my one on suicide

[01:12:06] so I think there's going to be a lot of people readers that I have that are going to really resonate with these conversations that your attempts and I think I know the answer here did you write a note

[01:12:35] no not that's what I thought no there was a time when I was really considering it and I you can't undo that right how

[01:13:05] does that sit with you I honestly have written it as a mark of I fought on like I don't have any attachment of shame to it I'm here and that means something for sure how many people know about your 12 year old attempt that I would say a lot of people do know about because that's something I've been vocal about with writing and readers right what about this month last month I think two

[01:13:35] people know one person was in the car yeah and there's me and then one other person and they don't even know the details of it they just know that I acted do you see a therapist yes so that's the person that knows some people don't talk to their therapists about this stuff yeah have you been in therapy throughout all of your adult life no no I started therapy just

[01:14:05] over a year ago okay has it been helpful it has been and I think it's because it's like a person that holds space let's go at a minimum a therapist knows how to hold space but have you ever spent any time overnight or perhaps even part of a day in a psych unit or mental health facility no I hope you don't have to ever do that how many people in your life do you have to talk to if you are spiraling and you can use the word suicide or

[01:14:35] planning or dying and that person can sit with you and insert any words that we've talked about like holding space or whatever you want that kind of vibe where during or after the conversation at a minimum you don't feel worse and ideally maybe even a little better how many people in your life do you have whether you pay them or not yes the number that immediately came to mind was

[01:15:05] five but I will say I think there's there's some more people I I am grateful that I do feel like I have five people that I could be like I need you I don't know your names but shout out to the five people good job yeah do you have a diagnosis that you agree with yes with depression and with

[01:15:34] ADHD ah okay medication I do take medication for my ADHD you spent a lot of time in this space personally and professionally writing and speaking and listening what are one or perhaps two of the biggest myths or misconceptions you want to call bullshit on the ones that really get your blood boiling I mean

[01:16:05] I has harm and especially when you're talking about young people because a lot of gatekeepers a lot of you know there's people in these different environments that they don't want to bring up suicide or talking about suicide with younger audiences it makes me angry because if you just look at the statistics you realize like look what our kids are dealing with like our discomfort matters less than

[01:16:35] their lives get over it that's a big one that's a big one that's a big one and and then the other the other one I mean when we talked about it is the whole just talk about it it is one very difficult to talk about things when you are struggling it is hard to identify the right people to talk about it when you are struggling I think one thing is I try to be a person

[01:17:05] that people can talk to like I'm a safe person to talk to and I also am mindful about who I do talk to when I am struggling because in those micro moments they have shown a bit of capacity to hold the hard things with me even if it's in the tiniest way like they've built a bit of trust to say you're someone you're someone that I can talk about and

[01:17:35] let's remind the audience that this morning you were spiraling so you are struggling right this is not six months removed right this is so I appreciate you trusting me with that I appreciate the space for it I usually don't ask this question I don't love it but for you I want to do it today's Rocky can have

[01:19:17] have theirs are are you familiar with the pink and purple pill question no oh okay this is a question I ask all my guests I give you a pink and purple pill the

[01:23:47] and I joke around sometimes or I ask a slightly inappropriate question or whatever it is but when you have your podcast you do it your own way yeah that's the point like I think there could be say a hundred podcasts about suicide specifically suicide right there I don't know about those but there could be if they did exist

[01:24:17] right but the thing is that each person's energy is going to run the dynamics of those conversations so differently this is what I I thank you for talking with me today thank you this was amazing

[01:24:46] I appreciate you I might hit you up too like if I'm starting to get really in depth with it I might be

[01:25:16] like I need some title options I'm down for your fellow wordsmith awesome what's the rest of your day like getting my kiddos and going to try to be just present to them for the rest of the day so it's pretty over here let me go outside Rocky as mom for the rest of the day exactly I hope that goes well I thank you thank you so much Sean take care bye as always thanks so much for listening and

[01:25:46] all of your support special thanks to Rocky and Marilyn thanks so much Rocky if you are a suicide attempt survivor or ideator and you'd like to stay strong do the best you can I'll talk to you soon