Mo in Western U.S.

[00:00:00] And I remember crying and I had to do so silently, kind of agonizing grief for my future that was silent and just like weird silent wailing.

[00:00:51] So one of my goals with this podcast is to have more conversations and hopefully better conversations with attempt survivors in large part to help more people in more places, hopefully feel a little less shitty and a little less alone.

[00:01:04] Now, if you are a suicide attempt survivor and you'd like to talk, please reach out.

[00:01:08] Hello at suicidenoted.com.

[00:01:10] You can also find us on Facebook and X, at least for now, at Suicide Noted.

[00:01:15] If you'd like to learn more about the podcast, including our membership, check the show notes.

[00:01:21] You will also find there very soon, though perhaps not this episode, more information on the Noted Network.

[00:01:29] I'm very excited about this.

[00:01:30] I've been thinking about it for a long time.

[00:01:32] We're moving forward.

[00:01:33] We're getting funding so that we can not only expand the Suicide Noted podcast, but also help other people have these kinds of conversations,

[00:01:41] whether they are around suicide or some other topic or idea that is so often marginalized or dismissed.

[00:01:48] And oh, by the way, we have not gotten a review in a long time.

[00:01:51] Please help us out.

[00:01:53] It's real quick.

[00:01:53] Rate, review this podcast.

[00:01:55] It really helps people find it.

[00:01:56] And of course, we want more people to find it.

[00:01:58] Finally, we are talking about suicide on this podcast, as the name suggests.

[00:02:02] Please take that into account before you listen or as you listen.

[00:02:06] But I do hope you listen because there's so much to learn.

[00:02:09] Today, I am talking with Mo.

[00:02:12] Mo lives in the Western United States, and she is a suicide attempt survivor.

[00:02:20] Hey, Mo, let us jump right in.

[00:02:23] How did you find this podcast or how did you find me?

[00:02:27] Well, I had already searched in YouTube and I was pretty disappointed with what I found on YouTube.

[00:02:32] It's mostly centered on either people saying, hey, don't kill yourself and kind of erroneous sharing a lot of the myths that we've objected to.

[00:02:46] People on this podcast have objected to that it gets better, which is true for some people, but not everyone.

[00:02:52] I don't know.

[00:02:53] There's some things that complicate my own situation.

[00:02:58] I've listened to a lot of the podcasts all the way back to 2021.

[00:03:03] I've kind of been binge listening backwards.

[00:03:07] You've heard my voice a lot.

[00:03:08] That is, man.

[00:03:10] Yeah.

[00:03:10] It's almost making me feel weird.

[00:03:13] Well, a lot of people have heard your voice.

[00:03:16] A lot of people are uncomfortable about it.

[00:03:18] There's also plenty of people have heard it for like 10 minutes.

[00:03:21] They're like, I don't like this guy.

[00:03:23] I don't like what they're talking about.

[00:03:24] I'm never listening to this again.

[00:03:25] That happens too.

[00:03:27] So you've been listening back to older shows, but when and I guess when and why did you look for something related to suicide?

[00:03:35] And you finally stumbled upon it after being disappointed with other places that weren't working for you like YouTube.

[00:03:40] Because it was something I was considering and wanted to get other people's perspective on it.

[00:03:48] I mean, I guess after finding your podcast, this is the closest to what I didn't know I was looking for until I found it.

[00:03:56] So I'm vegan and that complicates things.

[00:03:59] I've never found a vegan on your podcast.

[00:04:02] I think someone, there was someone who like was eating chickpea tacos, but I don't know if, I don't know why she was eating chickpea tacos.

[00:04:09] I'm sure there's been a vegan or two that just didn't necessarily say that.

[00:04:13] It didn't come up.

[00:04:14] But it's so relevant.

[00:04:16] And I just like if someone's really vegan, I can't imagine it not being, not factoring in just like the grief.

[00:04:25] It really affects your view of human nature and humanity.

[00:04:29] What vegan really means is it is motivated by concern for animals.

[00:04:34] I mean, a lot of people will call themselves vegan who would more accurately be considered plant-based by other vegans.

[00:04:42] It's not just a diet thing or it's not just an environmental thing.

[00:04:46] It's like removing your support for cruel and exploitative uses of animals.

[00:04:52] I actually was transitioning to veganism when I first attempted and I only have one attempt.

[00:05:01] And that was before you found this podcast?

[00:05:04] Long before.

[00:05:05] That was in 1995.

[00:05:07] 1995.

[00:05:08] Okay.

[00:05:09] Or I was 18, almost 19.

[00:05:12] And I'm 47 now.

[00:05:14] 47.

[00:05:15] You made it to 47.

[00:05:16] Okay.

[00:05:17] Yeah.

[00:05:18] Not sure how you feel about that because you did say not that long ago you were considering ending your life.

[00:05:23] So I don't know how you feel.

[00:05:24] We'll get to it.

[00:05:25] The word considering is actually kind of fascinating to me.

[00:05:28] I was considering, I think, was either ending your life, suicide.

[00:05:32] I think those are the same things.

[00:05:34] For some people, I think they imagine that it's not something you take time or energy to consider.

[00:05:40] But that's simply not true.

[00:05:42] No.

[00:05:42] Is there a question in there?

[00:05:45] That's very, very funny.

[00:05:47] There kind of is.

[00:05:47] So in 1995, when you're 18 years old, you have an attempt, which I hope you'll be open to talking about.

[00:05:53] 30 years later, or almost 30 years later, you have not tried again.

[00:05:57] Somewhat recently, you were considering it.

[00:05:59] And that's when you stumbled upon this podcast.

[00:06:01] Have you been considering it all 30 years?

[00:06:04] At times.

[00:06:05] So I should give a bit of context about my life.

[00:06:09] I had a history of being in special ed, and I don't remember all my diagnoses.

[00:06:16] I know, like, ADHD was one of them, and I had various behavioral problems, truancy and stuff.

[00:06:25] I really didn't want to go to school sometimes.

[00:06:28] I didn't like my experience of school, and sometimes I didn't do my homework, and I felt really embarrassed about that.

[00:06:35] I had acne, and I was chubby, bullied sometimes by other kids, and just kind of othered, like, who's this weirdo?

[00:06:45] And just kind of a nervous kid who I think was, like, trying too hard sometimes.

[00:06:51] At that point, I had left residential special education, because the truancy got me from non-residential to residential.

[00:07:02] And I had been in there for, like, three years or something.

[00:07:07] And, like, transitioning was truant again.

[00:07:10] And I and my parents decided to homeschool me.

[00:07:14] And at that point, although I was really on my own, I was alone a lot because they were working.

[00:07:20] My parents were divorced at that point.

[00:07:22] They had been divorced since I was 12, or separated since I was 12.

[00:07:26] I don't know at what point they finalized it, but we were going back and forth or visits or whatever.

[00:07:33] At that point, I was in community college, but still not graduated from high school, technically.

[00:07:40] I was just kind of going to community college as a high school student, just a few classes.

[00:07:46] And I had a speech class.

[00:07:49] I had an assignment there that I didn't, I felt like I didn't know how to do and was really overwhelmed with.

[00:07:55] I don't remember what it was, even if it involved presenting, if I was nervous about that.

[00:08:00] It felt like I had no one.

[00:08:03] You know, not having anyone to help me through this thing was just another example of that.

[00:08:08] I didn't have much of a future career-wise or relationships.

[00:08:13] I had a therapist at the time.

[00:08:15] That was kind of a complicated relationship.

[00:08:18] I mean, he was just my therapist.

[00:08:21] I wasn't in love with him, though my mother seems to think I was.

[00:08:25] And I told them later, and I'll tell you the context of it, because it has to do with my attempt, you know, that he was my only friend.

[00:08:31] I kind of lived for our appointments every week.

[00:08:35] Right, it makes total sense, sure.

[00:08:37] I might get a little emotional when I remember this.

[00:08:39] It's crazy, because it's so long ago.

[00:08:42] And also, I think, you know, it's so much the same thing.

[00:08:46] I'm kind of like, I like Leo.

[00:08:49] Leo is my creative assistant.

[00:08:51] He's actually, I should have said he's in Turku, Finland.

[00:08:56] Wait, wait, your creative assistant these days is in Finland?

[00:09:00] He lives there?

[00:09:01] Yes.

[00:09:02] Turku, Finland.

[00:09:02] He's originally from the Allende Islands, which are Swedish-speaking island in Finland.

[00:09:09] What?

[00:09:10] If you're listening, Leo, thank you for listening in Finland.

[00:09:14] He's pretty much the only person I know.

[00:09:16] And it's like, it feels like that a bit, you know.

[00:09:21] It's much better with Leo.

[00:09:23] And he was nice enough to say, and this really made me feel better, that if I wasn't paying him, that he'd still talk to me.

[00:09:32] And that was a great comfort.

[00:09:34] And I feel like we have some things in common.

[00:09:37] He's saving me.

[00:09:38] No joke.

[00:09:40] I bet.

[00:09:40] I bet.

[00:09:41] So with this therapist, you're kind of interested in, like, how I come to the decision to attempt.

[00:09:47] Yeah, it was just that I didn't see a future for myself.

[00:09:51] I don't remember all the details, but I remember thinking that I wanted to die in my therapist's arms.

[00:09:59] Hmm.

[00:10:00] Which is really weird because I didn't know until years later and, like, Googling him that his younger brother, when he was younger, died in his arms.

[00:10:12] Wow.

[00:10:13] I'm assuming no, but did you tell your therapist or just you thought about wanting to do that?

[00:10:18] I didn't tell anyone because, you know, it would have stopped me.

[00:10:23] I had a job at a library as a page and I was going to school.

[00:10:29] Like the week I decided I didn't fulfill all my hours at the library.

[00:10:34] So my choice of method was I got 16 extra strength sleeping pills out of a box.

[00:10:44] I remember the exact number.

[00:10:46] I was under 21, of course, so I couldn't buy alcohol.

[00:10:50] I didn't really, I hadn't researched because I didn't even know where I would have researched, but I just knew it was bad to combine that with alcohol.

[00:11:00] But the only alcohol I had access to as an 18 year old was vanilla extract.

[00:11:07] I bought them together at the pharmacy that day.

[00:11:11] This is all west of the Rockies.

[00:11:12] This is east of the Rockies is where I'm from.

[00:11:15] Now you're west, then was east.

[00:11:17] You're in a pharmacy, sleeping stuff and vanilla stuff.

[00:11:21] And all the while you're going about your day.

[00:11:23] If I were to see you there, I wouldn't like be like, oh my God, she's about, like you wouldn't know, I bet.

[00:11:29] I might have looked kind of sad.

[00:11:30] I don't, I don't know.

[00:11:32] I remember thinking, I kind of wish someone would recognize this purchase as like a suicide attempt, but I'm sure the clerk just thought she wants to bake a cake and go to sleep.

[00:11:46] And even if they did, like, what would they do?

[00:11:48] What could they do?

[00:11:49] Yeah, I don't know.

[00:11:51] I thought about, I thought about, I questioned my decision a bit.

[00:11:55] Like, did I want to change my mind?

[00:11:57] And I was like, no, my, I still don't see a future for myself.

[00:12:01] And here I, I've already missed days at work.

[00:12:05] So I, I just went forward with it.

[00:12:08] And I, I also went to the, there's a health food store near his office that I'd been to a bunch before.

[00:12:16] And they had these like hand dipped candles, the fancy dip paper candles.

[00:12:22] And I, I mentioned those in my note.

[00:12:25] I did write a note.

[00:12:26] I don't remember much of what I said in the note.

[00:12:28] I may still have the note somewhere, but I don't know where it is.

[00:12:31] And, uh, I asked people to burn those candles for me.

[00:12:36] And once I was dead, you, that's part of the note.

[00:12:39] You remember that?

[00:12:39] Yes.

[00:12:40] And I went to the bathroom of this cafe, uh, at the time it's now a Starbucks, of course,

[00:12:49] because everything's a Starbucks.

[00:12:50] A lot of things are Starbucks.

[00:12:52] That's true.

[00:12:53] And I remember taking each pill.

[00:12:57] Cause I think it was like a blister pack.

[00:12:58] And I remember crying and I had to do so silently.

[00:13:04] It was this kind of agonizing, like grief for my future that was silent.

[00:13:09] And just like this weird silent wailing.

[00:13:13] I had books with me that I was giving to my therapist.

[00:13:18] And that was also in the note.

[00:13:21] I went upstairs to the waiting room.

[00:13:23] I timed it at least an hour before my appointment.

[00:13:28] And I didn't know what state I was going to be in at that point.

[00:13:32] I thought he might find me on the couch.

[00:13:36] And I like have our will have already been asleep then, but I wasn't, but I was pretty woozy.

[00:13:43] He said later, like, I knew something was wrong the moment I walked in.

[00:13:47] You went into the bathroom, but where's most of this occurring?

[00:13:50] Same place.

[00:13:50] Yeah.

[00:13:51] The cafe is in the same building as his office, but it was on the first level.

[00:13:57] So I went upstairs after I'd swallowed all the pills and chased it with the vanilla extract.

[00:14:03] And went where?

[00:14:04] I went up to his waiting room.

[00:14:06] I kind of waited for things to take effect and like to see where it was going.

[00:14:12] And an hour had passed.

[00:14:14] He opened the door and called me in and I was pretty woozy.

[00:14:18] And I dropped the bag, kind of apologized, the bag of books.

[00:14:22] It also had the candles in it.

[00:14:24] I think I broke the candles.

[00:14:27] I just tried to have a session.

[00:14:30] I don't remember everything that I said or he said, but at some point it was clear to him,

[00:14:37] I had taken something and he starts asking me, what did you take?

[00:14:40] What did you take?

[00:14:41] And I was reluctant to say anything because I'm like, if I tell him it's not going to work.

[00:14:47] And I also just look like, you know, this was all just a plea for attention.

[00:14:53] Really, even to this day, I'm not sure it wasn't.

[00:14:56] But then sometimes I think it was a real intent to die, especially because like how it is now.

[00:15:03] I mean, like the ideating I have now feels very, there are some parallels to back then.

[00:15:10] So let me ask you a question before you continue.

[00:15:13] I'm weird.

[00:15:13] So I find this an intriguing story.

[00:15:16] Others might use different words.

[00:15:17] If you want to die, and that's an if, right?

[00:15:20] Why put yourself in a position to be discovered?

[00:15:25] I think it comes back to wanting to die at his arms, wanting to say goodbye.

[00:15:33] You know, I only could see him in our sessions.

[00:15:35] Were you in love with him?

[00:15:37] No, not in a romantic sense.

[00:15:40] People are very, they react very strongly to therapist, patient, like romantic or sexual relationships.

[00:15:48] It's like, it's so much so that that's like the only harm.

[00:15:51] Maybe that's not ethical ever, but I don't know that it's always like so harmful.

[00:15:58] And it's certainly not the only thing that's so harmful.

[00:16:01] Just losing a person that you thought cared about you.

[00:16:06] And when you don't have anyone else and you don't understand why it has to be that way.

[00:16:11] I remember saying as I was like falling asleep and kind of fighting falling asleep a little bit.

[00:16:17] I remember saying, I love you so much.

[00:16:20] You're my best friend.

[00:16:20] You're my only friend.

[00:16:21] And he had come closer to where I was sitting.

[00:16:26] And that was like the closest he'd been.

[00:16:29] That may have been the point he was trying to ask me what I had taken.

[00:16:34] He had to ask me several times.

[00:16:36] I really wasn't sure I wanted to tell him.

[00:16:40] And he called an ambulance.

[00:16:42] They took me down the stairs in one of those chairs.

[00:16:46] I think he said to the ambulance people, I'll follow you.

[00:16:51] And I might have misheard it as like, I love you or something.

[00:16:56] You could argue like follow.

[00:16:58] I'll follow you is kind of almost like saying I'm following you.

[00:17:02] Like I'm with you.

[00:17:04] Yeah.

[00:17:05] I asked him later if that's what he said.

[00:17:09] And I don't think he ever said no.

[00:17:11] Oh, he just said that doesn't sound like something I would say or something.

[00:17:16] I think he didn't remember saying it.

[00:17:18] He was there in the emergency room later.

[00:17:22] I remember him saying that I owe the person after him an apology.

[00:17:26] Like his next patient.

[00:17:28] That's an interesting thing to bring up in this moment that you owe the person an apology.

[00:17:32] But that's, I suppose, true.

[00:17:33] And I responded like, okay, when would you like me to do that?

[00:17:38] Like immediately.

[00:17:39] And this is 1995.

[00:17:41] So chances are he doesn't like whip out his phone with all the context.

[00:17:46] And you could just message this person easily.

[00:17:48] No.

[00:17:48] No.

[00:17:49] When I said that, he's like, you just worry about getting better now or something.

[00:17:54] I think he regretted saying it, maybe.

[00:17:58] So how long are you in the hospital for?

[00:18:00] Four weeks in the psych ward.

[00:18:02] So you originally just went to a psych ward?

[00:18:04] You didn't go anywhere to get rid of the meds?

[00:18:06] No, I went to the emergency room and they pumped my stomach.

[00:18:09] Okay.

[00:18:10] And they also cathetered me, even though I think I was well enough to get up to the bathroom.

[00:18:16] I resisted being cathetered.

[00:18:19] And I remembered the emergency room doctor being really rude.

[00:18:23] He was like, you're wasting my time.

[00:18:27] What's somebody who's not wasting his time?

[00:18:29] What have they gone through?

[00:18:30] I don't know.

[00:18:31] Bad car accident.

[00:18:32] You're worthy of being in the ER.

[00:18:34] Heart attack.

[00:18:35] You're worthy of being in the ER.

[00:18:36] Someone who doesn't take pills an hour before being discovered.

[00:18:41] You know.

[00:18:42] You're wasting my time.

[00:18:44] Yeah.

[00:18:44] I think everyone thought it was just a cry for help and a very simple one.

[00:18:49] And that I hadn't really thought through about how it would affect anyone else.

[00:18:53] Still not connecting the docs and how that's wasting his time.

[00:18:56] But okay.

[00:18:56] It's him.

[00:18:57] I was pretty disappointed by that.

[00:19:00] I did let them catheter me.

[00:19:03] What point are you moved to the psych unit or some other kind of hospital?

[00:19:08] Later that day.

[00:19:10] And you stay there for four weeks?

[00:19:11] Yeah.

[00:19:12] Right until my insurance ran out.

[00:19:14] That's when they discharged me.

[00:19:16] Wow.

[00:19:16] That's magically when you got better.

[00:19:18] Go figure.

[00:19:19] And it's the insurance company who's so smart.

[00:19:22] They know.

[00:19:23] Oh yeah.

[00:19:23] No.

[00:19:23] She's most good now.

[00:19:24] How was that experience?

[00:19:25] Those four weeks?

[00:19:27] Well, I should say it wasn't the first time I'd been hospitalized.

[00:19:30] How many other times had you been hospitalized?

[00:19:32] Two inpatient.

[00:19:34] One outpatient.

[00:19:35] This is like in your teenage years?

[00:19:37] Yeah.

[00:19:38] At 12, 16.

[00:19:40] And I think the outpatient was just maybe even a few months before.

[00:19:44] Or the outpatient I had a say in, like my parents asked me, do you want to go to this?

[00:19:49] And I'm like, sure.

[00:19:50] I don't know if that was a good decision.

[00:19:53] Yeah.

[00:19:53] But nonetheless, how was this particular thing after this event?

[00:19:57] Well, relative to the other hospitalizations, better.

[00:20:02] Much better.

[00:20:03] I mean, because in the previous hospitalizations, I had moments where I was in solitary confinement

[00:20:10] each time.

[00:20:11] And this is at 12 and 16.

[00:20:14] And those were scary, unpleasant experiences that I don't think children should be forced

[00:20:21] to endure.

[00:20:22] I'm going to add adults, but that's cool.

[00:20:24] I get a little say in it.

[00:20:25] Yes.

[00:20:26] Adults either, but especially children.

[00:20:29] Yeah.

[00:20:29] I mean, it makes things worse almost always.

[00:20:31] Yeah.

[00:20:31] But this one, I don't know.

[00:20:34] It was nice enough.

[00:20:35] I don't really remember anything super positive or negative about it.

[00:20:40] I remember some of the other patients.

[00:20:42] It was on a college campus.

[00:20:44] It was a university.

[00:20:47] And so some of the people were university students.

[00:20:50] That kind of reminded me of, you know, again, the academic success I would never have and still

[00:20:56] have never had and more failures, though I have a certificate in massage therapy that

[00:21:02] I've never used.

[00:21:04] How are they helping over those four weeks?

[00:21:06] Like, what are they doing?

[00:21:07] Without going into the details of your everyday life, and I know it's been quite a number

[00:21:11] of years, but are they just holding you there so you can't kill yourself?

[00:21:15] Are there little groups, therapies, meds?

[00:21:19] What's happening?

[00:21:20] There must have been all of that.

[00:21:22] I know I got two visits, maybe more.

[00:21:26] Actually, I'm kind of remembering these as I go.

[00:21:30] That's just a good thing.

[00:21:32] Yeah, it comes back as you say it out loud.

[00:21:34] Yeah.

[00:21:35] So I was in a youth group at a Unitarian church.

[00:21:40] Somebody shared with them that I had attempted, maybe my mother.

[00:21:45] There was an adult member of the congregation that brought me a card.

[00:21:50] I remember one thing in the card.

[00:21:53] Someone started to write, I don't remember the name of the song with the lyric, oh, oh,

[00:21:58] oh, oh, oh, staying alive.

[00:22:00] Tried to correct that as like staying a long time.

[00:22:04] I thought it was better with the original.

[00:22:07] I don't know.

[00:22:07] That was nice to get that card.

[00:22:10] People were concerned in the youth group and people knew, but I didn't know what to say

[00:22:17] to them and they didn't know what to say to me.

[00:22:19] My landlord, who was also one of my housemates at the time, because I wasn't living with my

[00:22:26] family, he came with some clothes and my therapist himself came.

[00:22:33] Yes and no, because I think I remember yelling at him and I said something like, I'm not even

[00:22:40] a person to you.

[00:22:40] I'm just a diagnosis or something.

[00:22:42] I mean, you've talked before about how we outsource empathy.

[00:22:47] I think if we tried, we could not do that and learn to take care of each other or have someone

[00:22:55] who doesn't need to be paid and that this isn't like a profession.

[00:23:01] I'd rather have like a shaman or something.

[00:23:03] I think part of what I imagine, again, if I decide to live is like a more tribal lifestyle.

[00:23:10] Maybe not entirely off the grid, but a little off the grid.

[00:23:14] Pretty off the grid.

[00:23:15] If I Decide to Live is a great memoir title.

[00:23:18] Yeah.

[00:23:18] Your choice.

[00:23:19] I'm just telling you that's a good title.

[00:23:22] I like that you got these memoir titles.

[00:23:25] There's probably one or two more coming during our conversation that could also be.

[00:23:29] I kind of feel like when we get into the vegan stuff, there might be a moment there too.

[00:23:33] You get out at some point.

[00:23:35] You're 18 years old.

[00:23:36] I'm 19 when I get out.

[00:23:38] Happy birthday in the hospital.

[00:23:39] How do we connect the time you get out when you're 19 to today?

[00:23:44] I got married pretty much to my first real boyfriend, which might've been a bad idea.

[00:23:51] This was how old?

[00:23:52] At 25, and we'd been dating since I was 23.

[00:23:57] I didn't really date much before him.

[00:24:00] I tried to go back to school.

[00:24:02] That didn't work.

[00:24:04] Was often unhappy and lonely.

[00:24:06] He was in the military.

[00:24:07] He was an officer in the military.

[00:24:09] So we moved a lot, like every two to four years.

[00:24:13] You were married for quite a while.

[00:24:15] From 2001 to 2014, which is when I moved where I am now.

[00:24:21] I would add, I'm often angry, just angry at the world and the way things are and the way people are.

[00:24:28] And just frustrated that there's nothing I could do about it.

[00:24:31] And never really had close friends.

[00:24:34] Your husband, your friend?

[00:24:36] Was that different?

[00:24:37] Yeah, I did consider him my friend.

[00:24:39] Yeah.

[00:24:40] And again, my only friend.

[00:24:42] I get one at a time.

[00:24:43] I've had a few boyfriends since I've been here.

[00:24:46] Romance west of the Rockies.

[00:24:48] Yes.

[00:24:49] Well, never really anything that intimate or close.

[00:24:54] So around 2017, at that point, I had been here for three years and really didn't feel like I was making progress.

[00:25:03] I really didn't feel confident as an adult and that I just wasn't getting what I need.

[00:25:09] I'm still not getting what I need.

[00:25:10] And I felt a lot of shame about where I was in my life.

[00:25:14] Had already begun isolating.

[00:25:16] I had a boyfriend at the time who tried, but that was a really frustrating relationship.

[00:25:23] He was, I don't think he meant to be, but he was really dismissive and really didn't get me and really didn't take something seriously that I needed him to.

[00:25:32] There was an issue with my condo.

[00:25:35] It was not constructed right.

[00:25:37] The statute of limitations had run out.

[00:25:39] We were all footing the bill for these repairs that needed to happen.

[00:25:43] I didn't have another place to go while these repairs were happening, and it was really noisy and really frustrating.

[00:25:49] At one point, I woke up to jackhammers outside my door, literally.

[00:25:54] That created a lot of problems.

[00:25:56] I was in therapy, I think for like two years maybe.

[00:26:00] And I was really frustrated with my therapist.

[00:26:04] I don't think he understood the seriousness of things and how difficult I was finding things.

[00:26:11] When do you become a vegan?

[00:26:12] 1995.

[00:26:14] Okay.

[00:26:14] So this has been a long, long time that you've been doing vegan.

[00:26:17] Okay.

[00:26:18] Yeah.

[00:26:18] At some point after some of that, even though I know some of it's still going on, I don't know if things get worse, but you're moving more towards when the word considering ending your life.

[00:26:29] You do some searching, you find the podcast.

[00:26:31] I've been considering since, probably since 2017.

[00:26:36] 2017.

[00:26:37] What has prevented you from following through with that?

[00:26:40] I'm not encouraging.

[00:26:41] I'm just curious.

[00:26:42] So I had some savings, which have diminished greatly while I'm waiting to get the help I need so I can function and work.

[00:26:50] I had a lot of ideas and I've been trying to refine them.

[00:26:56] So I knew that if I died, I'd leave enough money that could do something, do some good.

[00:27:02] And I wanted to be able to tell people what to do with it and that it actually happened.

[00:27:09] And to have some confidence in those ideas and their execution, with or without me.

[00:27:15] Does that answer the question why you didn't do it in those years?

[00:27:18] Yeah.

[00:27:19] And sometimes, you know, I've thought that I could have a brighter future.

[00:27:26] I'm very sensitive to noise.

[00:27:27] I want to move to the country.

[00:27:29] That's kind of been a theme.

[00:27:31] I'm also kind of dissatisfied with technology and want to use less of it.

[00:27:38] Just get away from screens.

[00:27:39] As we speak today, so you're in the considering phase.

[00:27:43] Yeah.

[00:27:44] I feel like my ideas are refined enough.

[00:27:47] There are enough people who might help Leo continue them.

[00:27:52] And someone else could get more help with what money is left.

[00:27:57] But if I have to do it myself, I'm just going to be waiting longer.

[00:28:02] It's just going to be dismissed as the workings of a crazy person.

[00:28:06] I'm not going to get a hearing.

[00:28:07] And I just feel like I've suffered enough.

[00:28:10] There are just a lot of apologies I'd like in sight I'd like people to have and some reparations I'd like them to make.

[00:28:18] And none of those things are ever going to happen.

[00:28:21] Why did you reach out to talk to me about this and share it with other people in particular?

[00:28:26] I feel like vegans are underrepresented on the podcast.

[00:28:32] And also, I'm a pretty idealistic person in general.

[00:28:37] And I just think a lot more is possible than people realize and really work for.

[00:28:43] I think if we focused and worked towards some solutions, we would find them.

[00:28:50] Like in my, you know, what other people would call manic moments, my big drive was like, I want to lead an exodus.

[00:28:56] I think I've also been very affected by there's a lot of homelessness here.

[00:29:01] Just a lot of dire circumstances that people are living with and they're not treated with respect.

[00:29:07] I think that's a lot of what's driving the shitty mental health and health system.

[00:29:13] And I actually, I surreptitiously recorded my last emergency room visit.

[00:29:18] I hid my phone under my plush robot they let me have.

[00:29:23] That's interesting.

[00:29:24] So you can hear verbatim the disrespect I got from this one nurse and doctor who, and they decided to keep me there, even though they had no, they really made no argument.

[00:29:36] It just said, it says in your chart, you're bipolar.

[00:29:39] How many people know we're talking?

[00:29:41] Just Leo.

[00:29:42] I kind of know.

[00:29:43] I think the answer to like, how many people do you have to talk to really like have these kinds of conversations?

[00:29:48] I know it's like maybe one or two, right?

[00:29:50] Well, two now.

[00:29:52] But I'm not daily life thing, you know?

[00:29:55] No.

[00:29:56] Yeah.

[00:29:57] Just, just Leo.

[00:29:59] And how many people outside of medical professionals know that you attempted in 1995?

[00:30:04] Just my family.

[00:30:06] I mentioned it to one person I knew years ago here.

[00:30:11] They may have forgotten.

[00:30:12] They're not in my life anymore.

[00:30:14] They didn't really say anything about it.

[00:30:16] When you think about 18 years old or even those moments after, do you ever wish you had followed through with, or for lack of a better word, it had worked?

[00:30:27] You had completed suicide then or sometime before now?

[00:30:30] I've certainly suffered a lot.

[00:30:33] And I think my ex-husband suffered a lot when we were married, just dealing with, I don't know, the consequences of what some people would call depression.

[00:30:43] I don't, I don't even like that word.

[00:30:46] I mean, I think of depression.

[00:30:47] I think of like, you're less activated.

[00:30:50] And I was often very activated, you know?

[00:30:54] More angry.

[00:30:55] And I think that's usually been the case.

[00:30:58] It's only when I've really felt like defeated and, you know, everything is futile that I might call myself depressed.

[00:31:07] And I wouldn't usually use that as like a diagnosis, not in the diagnostic sense.

[00:31:12] I don't like diagnoses.

[00:31:14] It's all just classifications.

[00:31:16] Have you heard the acronym weird?

[00:31:19] It's like Western educated, industrialized, rich, and democratic.

[00:31:24] Uh-huh.

[00:31:25] Yeah.

[00:31:25] Wow.

[00:31:26] That's been shown, like, we're very different than a lot of the world.

[00:31:30] Parts of the world that those things apply to are very different than parts that they don't.

[00:31:35] I don't think we've really checked our lens in any sense, especially the capitalist one.

[00:31:40] Yeah.

[00:31:41] Do you know the pink and purple pill question?

[00:31:43] Would I take a pink and purple pill and die and it wouldn't hurt and no one would know that I killed myself?

[00:31:51] Yep.

[00:31:51] I don't think so right now.

[00:31:53] Kind of where I've been lately is just wanting to record all my ideas and write a will that leaves everything to Leo and let him finish this.

[00:32:04] Okay.

[00:32:05] But you wouldn't throw it out.

[00:32:06] You'd save it.

[00:32:07] I think I would save it.

[00:32:08] I actually have a method I'm considering that I don't know I want to share.

[00:32:13] I still haven't decided not to and I kind of don't want to be stopped.

[00:32:17] But I know that kind of, I don't know, that puts everyone in a difficult position, liability and such.

[00:32:23] You're not here encouraging others to do it or giving people ideas.

[00:32:27] You're just sharing what you're going through.

[00:32:29] Yeah.

[00:32:30] I will say having discovered this method, I feel better knowing that it's there and that it's likely to work and to not be painful.

[00:32:41] I have control.

[00:32:42] I have less fear that my last moments would be miserable.

[00:32:47] I don't have to like work myself up to like suffocate myself.

[00:32:51] Do you think it should be made easier for people who don't want to live to not live?

[00:32:58] And that might include people to help them who then don't get in trouble.

[00:33:03] Do you think that should be easier or available?

[00:33:05] So I would turn this around specific to my case and say what I'd really like is a fair hearing and my reasonable accommodations for the work I'm trying to do and real consideration.

[00:33:19] I mean, this really relates to my whole identity and perspective and experience.

[00:33:26] I want to be away from noise.

[00:33:28] I want people to get the help they need and the relationships they need to heal, the help they need solving their problems and the living situations they want to leverage their power as individuals and collectives in every domain, especially as customers.

[00:33:48] I wouldn't say consumers because I'm kind of over consumption.

[00:33:52] I'm over over consumption specifically.

[00:33:55] More than letting people die is including giving them what they need to function and to participate in the exchange of ideas and the realization of them to be supported in my work.

[00:34:10] If anyone does want to kill themselves, there should be an investigation and how did they reach this point?

[00:34:20] And how are we going to prevent the next person so we're not just letting people kill themselves and that's the solution while leaving the underlying problem to fester?

[00:34:30] What helps you get through the day?

[00:34:32] What's the biggest thing, sort of coping mechanism?

[00:34:34] And that might not be the right word, but I think you know what I mean.

[00:34:37] Sometimes I distract myself.

[00:34:39] I've been doing that a lot with YouTube.

[00:34:42] I play solitaire.

[00:34:44] My condo is a real mess.

[00:34:46] It kind of relates to the work I want to do and haven't been able to have specific specifications for this cleanup.

[00:34:53] You know, in my better moments, I think about the loving bots in Cubot 3 and Little Bot now and Shippy and Bobo the Robo Hobo.

[00:35:02] Again, this is in the better moments where I feel like I could have a happier future, just like imagining what that could be and who else is in it and how it could be structured.

[00:35:14] I have a place in mind actually to move.

[00:35:17] In the country or out of the country?

[00:35:19] It's in the country.

[00:35:20] It's still west of the Rockies.

[00:35:21] It will be either in New Mexico or Arizona, probably New Mexico.

[00:35:26] That's where the Continental Divide Trail is.

[00:35:28] One of the things that you mentioned right away in that first maybe email that you sent was about veganism.

[00:35:35] I'd like to understand a little bit better how that is connected with suicide.

[00:35:40] It just seeing all and knowing about all the suffering and cruelty and exploitation and people's reluctance to look at it or change.

[00:35:54] I feel like it's kind of related to the way that people don't want to talk about suicide.

[00:36:00] You know, they just don't want to sit with darkness.

[00:36:02] It's left me with a kind of negative view of humanity and a sense of deep powerlessness to change people and the world.

[00:36:15] I mean, and it's not like things aren't changing, but it feels like historically this has gone up and down.

[00:36:22] So there's been some shifts since the 90s.

[00:36:27] I feel like it's more about plant-based eating.

[00:36:31] It's more about health and ecology now.

[00:36:34] Caring about animals is still almost like taboo.

[00:36:38] Like, and everyone's just defensive.

[00:36:40] Like, we're all so judgmental.

[00:36:43] Do you have any idea about the vegan community and their mental health?

[00:36:46] And I mean, is there other suicide rates lower or higher?

[00:36:48] You might not know that.

[00:36:49] I'm just curious.

[00:36:50] I don't know.

[00:36:51] I know a lot of people, I know a lot of vegans struggle with mental health issues.

[00:36:57] But what the relationship is isn't clear.

[00:37:00] Another vegan said to me, because I was like, I said to him, like, wow, a lot of us are crazy.

[00:37:06] And he's like, well, you'd have to be to hold all this.

[00:37:09] Like, being a sensitive person, you're more likely to be vegan already.

[00:37:13] So there's overlap.

[00:37:15] It might be causal.

[00:37:16] It might be correlative.

[00:37:17] There's a psychologist in Australia, Claire Mann.

[00:37:21] She said she's surprised that there aren't more suicides.

[00:37:26] I mean, among vegans.

[00:37:28] She's a vegan psychologist.

[00:37:30] I think she does a lot of, like, remote work with vegans.

[00:37:35] She's made them kind of her target client.

[00:37:39] Right.

[00:37:40] That's her niche.

[00:37:40] She knew nothing about that before today.

[00:37:42] So thanks for sharing that, among other things.

[00:37:44] I should add, she also said that a lot of vegans say they stay alive for their animals that are in their life.

[00:37:51] My final question.

[00:37:52] This is going to be a tricky one because there's probably a number, but some of them have already come up.

[00:37:56] You know, I typically ask about myths, misconceptions.

[00:38:01] The big one, and it relates to veganism and suicide is, you know, the whole joke that, like, how do you know if someone's vegan?

[00:38:10] Don't worry, they'll tell you.

[00:38:11] That's not accurate.

[00:38:12] And it's not funny because I don't think anyone's trauma is funny.

[00:38:17] And veganism, to some extent, real veganism, you know, I'm not talking about, like, plant-based eating.

[00:38:24] There's some degree of trauma.

[00:38:26] Otherwise, people wouldn't avoid that stuff.

[00:38:29] You've got to be moved enough to change your lifestyle and really be othered because you're kind of not participating in that and gatherings and stuff.

[00:38:39] And really, I and a lot of people don't want to be around people when they're eating animals.

[00:38:44] So, yeah, there's a little PSA there.

[00:38:49] Please, people don't make that joke.

[00:38:50] Please don't mock vegans because we get enough shit.

[00:38:53] It's just more of the same, you know, American meanness than other countries.

[00:38:58] You know, there's been stories in the UK and I'm sure all around the world.

[00:39:02] Other things, I don't know that this is such a myth.

[00:39:06] Again, a PSA, like, it's okay to be idealistic and even radical.

[00:39:11] And I think it's important for us to support each other in that.

[00:39:15] One of the things I've heard when I talk about, I say I want to build intentional community or anything like that.

[00:39:23] You know, people have been trying to do that forever and it fails more often than not.

[00:39:27] And that may be true, but we've learned a lot and there's a lot we can do.

[00:39:33] However much we can do, it's important to do.

[00:39:35] So, that's more than a lot of us think, especially when we're careful about it.

[00:39:40] I want to impress upon people, like, to leave someone in this state where they don't have any fellow ideologues.

[00:39:49] I really feel like I've been trapped in my mind and in my condo to an extent.

[00:39:54] But I haven't had anyone to talk to about my ideas and they feel really important to me for reasons not just like I feel like I'm often dismissed as some kind of radical or this is about my ego.

[00:40:07] That I want to be some kind of hero when it's really like I just can't abide by this.

[00:40:14] I know there's something more we can be doing and I have to do it and I need to get away from the noise and I need to find my power again somewhere.

[00:40:25] And I know I'm not alone in that.

[00:40:28] And I think that's especially important for young people.

[00:40:30] I'm a big believer in building intentional community and that's something that can be done in a lot of ways for a lot of people in a lot of places.

[00:40:39] I think it's important to consider so people aren't trapped in their mind.

[00:40:44] And we further this discourse and our action to build a better world.

[00:40:50] Utopian thinking is important, I guess would be how I'd summarize that.

[00:40:54] Is there a place where people can learn more about the work you and Leo are doing?

[00:40:59] It's storyteamsllc.com.

[00:41:02] Do you think you or Leo or both of you will listen to this podcast when it comes out?

[00:41:07] Yes.

[00:41:08] Cool.

[00:41:08] What's the rest of your day like?

[00:41:10] It's kind of like every day just trying to stay fed and calm and entertained and hopeful.

[00:41:16] And next up for storyteams may be a prototype suicide watch in a hotel room, which I'm hoping is something that we'll be able to offer more people.

[00:41:29] This works out.

[00:41:30] So Mo and I talked and there was a long break, several months, and she followed up with some information she wanted to make sure I included.

[00:41:38] Of course, I want to honor that.

[00:41:41] So what you'll hear next is Mo sharing some thoughts about some other stuff that I want to include in this episode.

[00:41:46] And then, of course, at the end, as always, a nice goodbye.

[00:41:50] I had a few corrections and additional comments to make.

[00:41:54] My landlord's girlfriend also came to the hospital.

[00:41:56] I don't remember their names, but I'm grateful.

[00:41:59] I said I never really had close friends.

[00:42:02] I did in elementary and high school and at one of my jobs at a vegan business, but only so close.

[00:42:09] And we didn't stay in touch.

[00:42:11] We'll see how people where I live now respond to my suicidal ideation in the living funeral part of the suicide watch prototype.

[00:42:19] I've been thinking about suicide since before 2017.

[00:42:23] That's just when I really started panicking.

[00:42:25] That included a lot of pattern-seeking, Wikipedia holes, imagining, and problem-solving.

[00:42:31] This was partly in response to the fascist in the White House and violence in the city I live in,

[00:42:36] partly in response to my life situation and other factors.

[00:42:40] Now that that fascist has been elected again, I am deeply disappointed, but more motivated than ever to lead an exodus.

[00:42:47] And I think I have some good and well-developed ideas for going about that.

[00:42:52] I don't know that none of those insights, apologies, and reparations are going to happen.

[00:42:59] I am trying to be open to the possibility that some of them will.

[00:43:03] I still hope to find my chosen family and find some refuge and build a life worth living with them.

[00:43:10] I also look forward to creating an alternate history, the Petalverse, for people all over the world, starting from around 1875.

[00:43:19] I know many guests and listeners of this podcast may see psychotherapists and psychiatrists for psychotherapy and medication,

[00:43:30] and maybe treatments like electroconvulsive therapy.

[00:43:34] Some of you may have been given diagnoses and embraced them.

[00:43:38] Whatever you decide to do, I hope you will educate yourself as to the problems and risks of it and consider alternatives.

[00:43:47] Some people whose knowledge and insights I've found valuable in no particular order are

[00:43:54] William M. Epstein, author of Psychotherapy as Religion, The Civil Divine in America,

[00:44:01] Nick Fortino of the Psychology Is podcast,

[00:44:04] Joanna Moncrief, MD, author of The Myth of the Chemical Cure,

[00:44:10] A Critique of Psychiatric Drug Treatment,

[00:44:12] Dr. Joseph Wit-Doering of The Taper Clinic,

[00:44:17] and YouTube channel Dr. Yosef,

[00:44:19] Robert Whitaker, author of the book Mad in America,

[00:44:23] and president of the organization Mad in America,

[00:44:26] Jeffrey Musayev-Masson, a former psychoanalyst,

[00:44:30] author of the books Against Therapy and Final Analysis,

[00:44:35] and fellow vegan.

[00:44:36] Carter Hayward, author of the book When Boundaries Betray Us.

[00:44:41] I read Final Analysis and When Boundaries Betray Us when I was still seeing the same therapist in 1995,

[00:44:49] and it was a comfort to know that other people saw some of the problems inherent in such a relationship,

[00:44:55] and I wasn't alone in being injured by such a relationship.

[00:44:58] As for the alternatives, I'm still trying to figure out some for myself.

[00:45:03] But certain cannabis-derived medicines have been helpful for me and other people.

[00:45:08] People have also been helped by psilocybin.

[00:45:12] THC and psilocybin still aren't legal in many places,

[00:45:16] but there are places and ways to get them where they are legal for medical use,

[00:45:21] or with a trained facilitator,

[00:45:23] or the penalty of their possession and use is very low.

[00:45:27] I'll be exploring these and other interventions for the problem-solving work of story teams.

[00:45:32] I encourage people to share resources with me so I can learn more and share them with other people.

[00:45:38] Well, thank you for talking.

[00:45:39] Thank you for listening.

[00:45:41] Yeah, my pleasure.

[00:45:42] Okay.

[00:45:43] And hello, Leo, if you're listening somewhere in Finland.

[00:45:46] I hope your day's listening.

[00:45:47] Okay, you too.

[00:45:48] Bye-bye.

[00:46:17] Bye-bye.

[00:46:20] That is all for episode number 238.

[00:46:23] Stay strong.

[00:46:24] Do the best you can.

[00:46:25] I'll talk to you soon.