Maggie in Ohio

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_02] maybe I'll give marriage and having children a try and if it's not for me then I'm going to keep thinking this way all my life then I will never get better and I can never change how I think and I'd want to be done I think I would have experienced all that I would want to

[00:00:37] [SPEAKER_00] Hey there, my name is Sean and this is Suicide Noted On this podcast I talk with suicide attempt survivors and ideators so that we can hear their stories Every year around the world millions of people try to take their own lives and we almost never talk about it, we certainly don't talk about it enough and when we do talk about it, when we engage with people in pain online, offline, elsewhere, we're not very good at it in fact most of us and a whole lot of them are in the industry in the work itself that's supposed to help people out

[00:01:06] [SPEAKER_00] and help them feel a little less shitty and a little less alone we're not very good at it in fact most of you, most of us, suck at it and that's a problem, like a huge fucking problem so one of my goals with this podcast is to have more conversations and hopefully better conversations with survivors in large part to help more people in more places feel a little less shitty and a little less alone I know that's hard to measure and people like measuring shit

[00:01:35] [SPEAKER_00] and data but let me tell you something if you're feeling shitty and feeling alone whether you're talking to me or talking to somebody else or listening to this podcast or whatever you're doing and you feel a little less shitty and a little less alone yes, that's the third time I've said it in this intro you know how important that feeling is I'm clearly a little edgy and arguably even arrogant today so be it I've earned it now, if you are a suicide attempt survivor or ideator and you'd like to talk please reach out hello at suicidenoted.com

[00:02:05] [SPEAKER_00] I'd love to talk with you check out themissingrecord.com that's a project I'm working on that's a commercial project it's one way I'm trying to fund the Suicide Noted Podcast so that we can do more so that we can speak with more people in more places and I've got a bunch of shelved ideas that are going to stay shelved until we have the money so we're going to do the best we can we're going to keep doing it until we can't do it any longer and of course you can also make a tax deductible donation the link is everywhere donorbox.com slash blah blah blah

[00:02:34] [SPEAKER_00] finally we're talking about suicide here on this podcast my guests and I do not hold back I know it's not a fit for everybody so take that into account before you listen or as you listen but I do hope you listen because there's so much to learn today I'm talking with Maggie Maggie lives in Ohio and she is a chronic suicide ideator hey Maggie you know what you need to do

[00:02:59] [SPEAKER_02] okay I think I'm you can hear me right

[00:03:03] [SPEAKER_00] yeah you know how do you know about I've had like 400 conversations I would say 300 of them that moment happens and I probably have 300 examples of the exact this exact thing either you can hear me or can you hear me and where are you you're in your home what part of the world are you in

[00:03:23] [SPEAKER_02] I am in Ohio

[00:03:26] [SPEAKER_00] 20s

[00:03:27] [SPEAKER_02] um 20

[00:03:28] [SPEAKER_00] so first of all thanks for thanks for wanting to talk with me and showing up why why would you talk about this with an almost stranger

[00:03:34] [SPEAKER_02] I don't know so I think I found it or found a contract maybe about a month ago and I'm pretty sure I've watched every single or listened to every single episode

[00:03:45] [SPEAKER_00] let's just do the math let's just do the math that is I think 370 came out on Monday so if that is true 12 plus per day wait a second if they average about an hour what the hell are you doing the last month

[00:03:58] [SPEAKER_02] I don't have a job I just have my headphones on all day

[00:04:03] [SPEAKER_00] I have a couple as I have a visual like are you just like doing things or are you just like sitting in a chair

[00:04:09] [SPEAKER_02] yeah no I do things I like do stuff outside or

[00:04:13] [SPEAKER_00] yeah

[00:04:14] [SPEAKER_02] or do puzzles and sit down

[00:04:16] [SPEAKER_00] that might break a record right there number one let's just speculate here do you have a therapist

[00:04:20] [SPEAKER_02] um yeah okay

[00:04:22] [SPEAKER_00] so we could use him or her or them as an example or just the general therapist or anyone in health care mental health care in particular what do you think they would say if you said for the past month I have been binging this podcast where the conversations are centered around suicide attempt suicide attempt survivors and their lives just like let's just speculate

[00:04:42] [SPEAKER_02] so I feel like because my issue is like um intrusive thoughts like the thought of self-harm and suicide I feel like they would not like that because that's again all I'm thinking about

[00:04:54] [SPEAKER_00] and they would say by listening to it certainly listening to it that much somebody who has intrusive thoughts is more it's gonna tip them over the edge

[00:05:03] [SPEAKER_02] yeah I mean I'm sure that's what they'd say but I don't think that

[00:05:07] [SPEAKER_00] how would you push back yeah

[00:05:08] [SPEAKER_02] well I also just find everyone very interesting so many people have so many different experiences but I feel like we're all so much alike I'm not even sure if it's about the topic itself or more of just I found something that I enjoyed listening to

[00:05:23] [SPEAKER_00] have you seen your therapist in the last month

[00:05:25] [SPEAKER_02] um yeah I saw her I think yesterday

[00:05:27] [SPEAKER_00] does she know about this podcast

[00:05:29] [SPEAKER_02] no I did not tell her

[00:05:30] [SPEAKER_00] that's an interesting omission is it not

[00:05:32] [SPEAKER_02] I don't know

[00:05:33] [SPEAKER_00] literally you're listening to it all day so I mean when you get to a therapist like usually I don't know how your therapist operates but you're just like oh how's your week been or how's your day been there's some reason why you're not telling this person come on

[00:05:47] [SPEAKER_02] well it also come off like oh why do you find that like why did you get in and I don't know

[00:05:53] [SPEAKER_00] so that means that your therapist does not know that her client named Maggie has intrusive thoughts

[00:05:58] [SPEAKER_02] no she does I've been seeing her I think maybe just about a month now and I've had a hard time like wording the thoughts I guess because my brain goes all all day every day about a lot of things but especially suicide and well I guess cutting

[00:06:14] [SPEAKER_00] you just so to be clear you're saying that your intrusive thoughts are about suicide and also cutting

[00:06:19] [SPEAKER_02] yes

[00:06:19] [SPEAKER_00] does the cutting actually happen or does it remain just a thought

[00:06:22] [SPEAKER_02] so for a few maybe about a year it didn't happen and then it happened I think a week and a half ago for the first time in a long time like I'm able to push it down a lot and not act on my impulses I guess but I've been on medication and I think that didn't help so it was a high dose of well-featuring

[00:06:43] [SPEAKER_00] oh that's the one drug that completely fucked me up I know it helps people in fact I recently had a conversation when they said that particular drug saved someone's life so let's be clear it depends on the person and a bunch of things for me back in the day I remember taking well-butrin and it might have been on a second drug I don't know and it could have been a coincidence because I was also doing this weird like master cleanse thing if I recall it was the first time I had an anxiety attack it was brutal

[00:07:06] [SPEAKER_02] well she just lowered my dose today and I'm on it with Lexapro too

[00:07:11] [SPEAKER_00] it's like a big chemical stool experimentation I almost want to do trivia with you because you've just listened to all of them in such a short period of time I could probably be like tell me about Ruben in Ohio and it's oh yeah I know I'm Ruben right and you could probably with some of them like be able to know more about them than I can remember which is fascinating

[00:07:29] [SPEAKER_02] I actually don't feel like I remember anyone like I remember some of the stories that I guess stood out to me but I don't remember their names or where they were from because I guess it all just meshes together

[00:07:44] [SPEAKER_00] yeah it's a bit sort of it becomes like a some reason the word mosaic came in my mind but this big collective story made up obviously of all these individual stories including yours now are you engaged

[00:07:55] [SPEAKER_02] I am yes

[00:07:56] [SPEAKER_00] all right congratulations

[00:07:58] [SPEAKER_02] thank you we're going to marry next week

[00:08:01] [SPEAKER_00] does your partner know that you are having a conversation about suicide

[00:08:04] [SPEAKER_02] no

[00:08:06] [SPEAKER_00] does your does your partner know that you have thoughts of suicide

[00:08:09] [SPEAKER_02] yeah

[00:08:10] [SPEAKER_00] I mean it's a tough one to hide from a partner no

[00:08:14] [SPEAKER_02] yeah no I told my best friend she struggles with the same stuff I do I guess I didn't tell my fiance I just doesn't like when I talk about it so to tell him that I'm doing this would be crazy I think

[00:08:28] [SPEAKER_00] so it's safe to say that when this comes out he won't be hearing it

[00:08:31] [SPEAKER_02] I don't know I think I'll think about it or listen to it before he does and decides but I think eventually I will tell him

[00:08:38] [SPEAKER_00] but it also tells me that you might listen to it which is interesting because not everybody does

[00:08:43] [SPEAKER_02] I think so one day

[00:08:45] [SPEAKER_00] that would be interesting if you heard it or either way but when when's the wedding date

[00:08:49] [SPEAKER_02] um the 31st of July well wait

[00:08:52] [SPEAKER_00] wait you're getting married next week yes 20 years old now you know some people will be saying you're pretty young Maggie I mean maybe in like the 1800s that was a thing

[00:09:02] [SPEAKER_02] um yeah and he's older too so that I feel like people look down on that too but

[00:09:07] [SPEAKER_00] if he were under 25 it wouldn't come up so how old is he

[00:09:11] [SPEAKER_02] he just turned 28 but I'm turning 21 soon so we're seven years apart and that was never brought up and I pursued him so

[00:09:20] [SPEAKER_00] so Maggie pursued her who would the person who would then become her fiance and husband as of uh I believe next Friday if my math is correct not a big ceremony how many people are coming to the wedding

[00:09:33] [SPEAKER_02] so we're just going to a courthouse and it's I think nine people just siblings parents and one set of grandparents and a

[00:09:41] [SPEAKER_00] judge

[00:09:41] [SPEAKER_02] yes and a judge

[00:09:42] [SPEAKER_00] and then you'll have a little dinner after

[00:09:44] [SPEAKER_02] yes

[00:09:45] [SPEAKER_00] a little celebratory maybe a cocktail or two it's an interesting dynamic that you're thinking about killing yourself and also getting married because marriage is a sort of not to get too poetic but a sort of new beginning or birth

[00:09:57] [SPEAKER_02] yeah it is it's a different feeling I guess and also talking about having kids one day and bringing like that's a big thing for me like something that gives me a lot of anxiety I guess the thought of passing my issues on just something else someone else

[00:10:12] [SPEAKER_00] you are by definition giving them 50% if I understand biology correctly and there is a shot for sure that you will give them something clearly it is something you've thought about but people like you are so selfish we hear

[00:10:25] [SPEAKER_02] yeah oh I hate that

[00:10:27] [SPEAKER_00] I would say there's been a handful of my guests who think it's selfish and they can say that I don't I want to hear more but yeah the great majority are like it's so silly I feel

[00:10:37] [SPEAKER_02] like maybe being suicidal is selfish or being depressed can be selfish maybe I think I can be selfish when I get like that but

[00:10:44] [SPEAKER_00] those are two different things I understand if you're depression yeah not the most comfortable things to always be talking about I realize that it's complicated it's uh what's the word I don't know but you seem like you're pretty comfortable on your couch in Ohio

[00:10:59] [SPEAKER_04] in my bed

[00:11:00] [SPEAKER_00] oh it's in your bed in Ohio okay diamond ring on your I can see the diamond ring that's how I knew you were engaged I'm not just a podcaster I'm an observer

[00:11:10] [SPEAKER_04] yeah you are yes of course

[00:11:13] [SPEAKER_00] of course I mean you know I can I've got this box in front of me I can see you you got some light behind you you got the purple we won't give too much information away no one's gonna be able to you got these

[00:11:22] [SPEAKER_03] I don't think many people know my bedroom is purple anyway

[00:11:25] [SPEAKER_00] yeah it's a sort of purple fuchsia pillow it's nice okay so do you remember when you first started thinking about any form of suicide

[00:11:33] [SPEAKER_02] I want to say maybe around nine or ten years old I feel like I've always been an anxious person and not just lead into depression or maybe like a weird thought pattern like if I were in school and maybe I like I don't know the only example I can think of is if I were like standing up presenting something in school and maybe I like stuttered or messed up or did something wrong I'd go home and think like such an embarrassment like I should just go

[00:12:03] [SPEAKER_02] and yeah cut or kill myself

[00:12:06] [SPEAKER_00] cut or kill myself very different things no

[00:12:10] [SPEAKER_02] yeah I don't know when the first time I like hurt myself was I feel like I always I don't know I guess the first time I cut would have been when I was around 11 okay so yeah all through school I was definitely a cutter or whatever and then after school I'd say it turned to alcohol for maybe about a year until I got again I'm sorry I feel like I'm gonna hate listening to myself

[00:12:34] [SPEAKER_00] I mean I like listening to you if that helps but I don't know that'll help at all would you make a deal with yourself that you wouldn't do both at the same time

[00:12:41] [SPEAKER_02] no I do do both at the same time but I haven't cut as frequently as I used to at all like I would do it maybe even multiple times a day it's easier now that I don't I don't work and I have a job and I haven't for maybe about a year now just not enough distractions I guess now but I do my stuff during the day and then I drink a crack till that night

[00:13:05] [SPEAKER_04] you drink what

[00:13:06] [SPEAKER_02] a lot at night a while ago I was up to like two bottles of wine a day now it's probably a little more than a bottle

[00:13:13] [SPEAKER_00] you go red or white

[00:13:14] [SPEAKER_02] white yeah

[00:13:16] [SPEAKER_00] same you're a drinker and an occasional cutter and a suicide ideator and in the last month it's gotten more intense or did I misunderstand that in the last month you found the podcast but it had already been very intense

[00:13:28] [SPEAKER_02] I don't even know when it's gotten more intense but I think maybe since starting medication and drinking and like all these things it's gotten worse yeah maybe the last three months have been bad

[00:13:40] [SPEAKER_00] does your therapist know that you drink

[00:13:43] [SPEAKER_02] yes because

[00:13:44] [SPEAKER_00] everyone's thinking you shouldn't be drinking when you're on the meds I know what people are thinking right but I'm thinking there's a reason Maggie's drinking

[00:13:51] [SPEAKER_02] yeah and I don't even know if I know the reason anymore I feel it gets out of a habit maybe for a few months now I haven't had anything to like necessarily be stressed out about or like feel like oh I need a glass of wine right now it's just like oh it's six o'clock better get to it

[00:14:09] [SPEAKER_00] that's so I say it's interesting and I don't mean to go back and forth comparing myself but I'm like oh I know exactly why I drink and yes there is a there is a almost ritual aspect which it sounds like it applies to you like it's this particular time but straight up I just feel better yeah so

[00:14:25] [SPEAKER_02] it's worked better than any medication has yeah yeah

[00:14:28] [SPEAKER_00] but the thing I think the challenging thing with booze man is uh it doesn't seem to apply to you is that you just tend to start drinking more and more and more wait a second I just realized something you are 20 years old wow I forgot that you were actually underage 20 feels like it's old enough to drink I feel like 18 17 18 should be the age but whatever I'm not a lawmaker

[00:14:45] [SPEAKER_02] my parents never cared either I guess they would buy us you have siblings yes I have older sister younger father do they know

[00:14:55] [SPEAKER_00] that Maggie suffers

[00:14:56] [SPEAKER_02] I don't know I don't think so because it's a weird dynamic I guess my sister is five or six years older than me we never really bonded because she was older I guess and I she's not someone I would like go to the top to about any of that stuff and she lives up the street from me now that we're both moved out of our parents house there were a few months when I was struggling really hard I wouldn't like outright like tell anyone that I was but she'd come over and we'd drink a lot and I would drink too much

[00:15:26] [SPEAKER_02] and I would just start talking about like stuff that happened in the past I just had a tough time a few months ago and she kind of saw it but I don't know how much she thought anything of it yeah after those three months is when I decided to get help for the first time too

[00:15:41] [SPEAKER_00] mom was that three

[00:15:42] [SPEAKER_02] months ago so like I went through the rough patch I want to say was October through January of I'm pretty sure in April is when I started medication and then I didn't get a therapist until June

[00:15:56] [SPEAKER_00] all right so you got some got on some meds and then this past month you got is that your first therapist

[00:16:01] [SPEAKER_04] yes it is okay

[00:16:03] [SPEAKER_00] because sometimes people have to go through a bunch before they find one they they they jive with when you say stuff that happened I want to push too hard but is that related to this

[00:16:12] [SPEAKER_02] conversation maybe I guess more of stuff just like with my mom and I guess dynamic of how we were raised like I actually brought it up in therapy and it's called triangulation there's the three of us kids and my mom like circles or goes in a triangle of who is like the favorite or who she's and then if you're like the favorite then you're like on the inside and it feels great and then when you're on the outside you're talked about and like just like shit

[00:16:41] [SPEAKER_02] still rotating now

[00:16:43] [SPEAKER_00] do you think I don't be weird about this but like do you think it's almost on a schedule or is it just sort of organically change at some point

[00:16:49] [SPEAKER_02] it just organically changes until the person that she likes does something that she doesn't like and then I can see the

[00:16:55] [SPEAKER_00] next where are you in the triangle right

[00:16:57] [SPEAKER_02] now oh I'm on the outside I've been on the outside for a while

[00:17:00] [SPEAKER_00] now when was the last time you were on the inside around

[00:17:03] [SPEAKER_02] Christmas time I think we were pretty close and then it's just kind of faded out now it's my sister

[00:17:09] [SPEAKER_00] oh now your sister's on the inside yeah I

[00:17:12] [SPEAKER_02] think she went through my brother too in that time I think it was me my brother and then my sister just this last time you think

[00:17:18] [SPEAKER_00] this is just going to be a trend or a pattern that continues indefinitely yeah I

[00:17:22] [SPEAKER_02] think so unless she gets help which she won't yeah she's like seeing a psychiatrist right now but um yeah she won't go to therapy she doesn't

[00:17:30] [SPEAKER_00] like therapy okay so throughout all that time so over 10 years now of whether it's cutting ideating drinking you don't have an attempt if I'm correct is that right

[00:17:42] [SPEAKER_02] no I don't what's the

[00:17:44] [SPEAKER_00] closest you've come

[00:17:45] [SPEAKER_02] I feel like when I was younger and I don't know why it feels embarrassing to talk about now but I remember like writing notes out I feel like I didn't really understand maybe just how to do it so I always just thought oh I'll take like that bottle of Tylenol and that'll do it not really considering the fact that it might not do it so like yeah it was a thought and I planned it out but it wasn't like um I never I took those and then I guess while I've like

[00:18:15] [SPEAKER_02] actually been cutting I thought well what if I just go a little go in the other direction I don't

[00:18:21] [SPEAKER_00] know you can say it oh okay let's be really clear about what you just almost said one is look everybody here by the way if you're listening and this is uh something that's hard for you to hear hit pause that's all that's all you need to do because this is what a lot of people go through so it's part of a conversation when you're cutting a lot of people think I can go deeper if I go deeper I'm more likely to let cause I might kill myself you said something else and then

[00:18:51] [SPEAKER_00] you stopped yourself

[00:18:52] [SPEAKER_04] yeah so you're

[00:18:53] [SPEAKER_00] suggesting is you know the correct way to cut to kill yourself but you go in the opposite direction yeah one thing that I always ask cutters especially if you're starting at a young age at some point don't you have to get really creative with where you're cutting or like there's no way to hide it

[00:19:10] [SPEAKER_02] so after my mom like initially found out that I was doing it she had asked me like oh show me your arm like that whole thing and I did but she didn't know that I was doing it it's just on my arms or my arm and my thigh right so after she saw on my arm I knew that I could show that arm because she wouldn't remember like oh that one's new or that one's old my thighs were always easy to hide I've yeah

[00:19:39] [SPEAKER_02] I've never had an issue with hiding them does

[00:19:41] [SPEAKER_00] your is your father in

[00:19:42] [SPEAKER_02] the picture yes he is and he worked a lot growing up and he's also just a very very quiet person I guess he just kind of goes along with

[00:19:53] [SPEAKER_00] whatever we can have a pretty good idea who runs that household yep if you were to share with your mom your struggles whether it's showing her the cutting talking about the drinking talking about the intrusive thoughts does she handle that well or does that depend if you're on the where you are on the triangular spectrum if I

[00:20:14] [SPEAKER_02] told her about any of that she'd go and talk to my whole family about it and probably talk bad about me

[00:20:22] [SPEAKER_00] but why do you think that is I know we're just

[00:20:24] [SPEAKER_02] guessing here because it's happened before or the first time she found out that I was cutting it turned into like I don't even know what she actually thought of it but it wasn't that I was like not suffering but so in her eyes it wasn't that I had an issue it was that I wanted attention or right oh so

[00:20:45] [SPEAKER_00] when you say she talks to the family it's not in a let's support Maggie way no more negative way yeah how many times is that how many times does that have to happen before you never talk to your mother about it again

[00:20:58] [SPEAKER_02] oh a lot I haven't talked to her about anything since I was yeah like really young you mean and

[00:21:05] [SPEAKER_00] that's 100% logical yeah logical 100% I would be the exact same way and but by the way does that also include your younger brother

[00:21:15] [SPEAKER_02] so he actually has a lot of his own issues and he has like a learning disability because the focus was always him I know that sounds bad but she didn't notice my struggles as much as his struggles I guess but like with self-hormone suicide and stuff I don't think she would really talk to him or tell him about that it was more of just my sister and like a drama type way and like and

[00:21:40] [SPEAKER_00] do you know if either of your older sister or your younger brother struggle with any suicidal thoughts or so I know

[00:21:48] [SPEAKER_02] when my sister was a teenager she went to a therapist and tried medication but she stopped seeing the therapist because the therapist was telling my mom everything that they talked about in their session because she was a minor but it wasn't even like only when she had thoughts of like hurting herself it was just they'd go into the session and the therapist would just say everything to them let me let

[00:22:12] [SPEAKER_00] me let me let me share something with you right now who chose the therapist your your your sister or your mother oh my mom your mother knew exactly what she was doing yeah your mother sorry mom sorry but you knew exactly that you were going to choose a therapist that was going to share everything with you and if that person didn't you'd find a new therapist exactly so you know you're never going to hear this mom I probably know I mean you never know we don't know who's suicidal who looks for this and

[00:22:41] [SPEAKER_00] you'd be surprised yeah because people are quiet we know that people are very very quiet about it for understandable reasons but yes unlikely nonetheless I think I'm stating what is almost definitely a fact not that it's an age thing but it tends to be an sometimes in age things as people get older where they're like they can find a little softness for the parent that didn't do a good job because they went through their own stuff growing up are you there do you think you are there or will you ever be there or is it just like fuck you mom so I'm

[00:23:08] [SPEAKER_02] not necessarily like fuck you I feel like I've gone through like this whole process so her parents weren't good to her growing up she struggled mentally too but she also did similar things to me and she's hurt me in the same ways and she also has a big drinking problem just like her parents did and it's like she didn't put effort into changing that yeah she didn't break that that pattern so I know it's I know she's just messed up but it's also been a choice but

[00:23:38] [SPEAKER_00] it's interesting though because she's going to get the meds for some reason I'm gonna calm herself down get through the day yeah that's

[00:23:44] [SPEAKER_02] pretty much what it is because my brother has had some issues with like a few months ago he assaulted my dad my family's never been like that a lot of stuff after that and I know she was having panic attacks I don't think she's ever medicated growing up and then

[00:23:58] [SPEAKER_00] that's quiet dad he's probably working extra hours so he doesn't have to deal with the drama at home

[00:24:03] [SPEAKER_03] yeah yeah exactly I wonder how

[00:24:06] [SPEAKER_00] many family dynamics like that you know you're like why god he he or she works so much you're like yeah because I mean the office isn't the greatest place but home might not be

[00:24:14] [SPEAKER_02] any better and he um he has a tough job like physically and he's older now and he has heart issues looking at open heart surgery oh sure the end of this year and my mom I mean this is like her now that she's excited but she's gonna have something to complain about like taking care of him after and um something to stress about and it's all about her right now all right

[00:24:37] [SPEAKER_00] so I'd ask you this question I don't think we also we said when I asked you the question about like the closest you came it's kind of like when you were younger so as an adult or young adult it is real the issue is really for lack of a better word is really more is you use the word intrusive thoughts is that the same as suicidal thoughts or do they overlap um they

[00:24:55] [SPEAKER_02] overlap my brain is just constant go go go like constant thinking of what I could do especially like focusing on things in the past like oh I should have said that during a conversation it's just like thoughts that like pop up randomly well the majority of them are about suicide or cutting so for

[00:25:11] [SPEAKER_00] somebody out there who's like you not exactly like you but like you're like I wonder if they had going through the same thing so what I'm trying to find the right word so excuse me if I don't mean to be offensive like do you hear

[00:25:22] [SPEAKER_02] voices this is what I had like trouble explaining to my therapist and psychiatrist yeah it's not hearing like voices or like I guess it's more of having like that inner voice I feel like a lot of people have yeah not like something from the outside or anything like that it's just internal I get it

[00:25:40] [SPEAKER_00] I get it yeah do you do what I do at all do you ever like start talking to

[00:25:44] [SPEAKER_03] it like out loud yeah you or even if

[00:25:47] [SPEAKER_00] it's like a soft thing maybe yeah because it's so silly I think people yes there are times when people are doing that and you can tell they're clearly mentally unstable but most people like they're like role-playing conversations they wish that have gone differently yeah and they kind of do I do that I do that and sometimes I've catch myself doing it like walking in public but I realize these days with earbuds they don't know I might be having a conversation on the phone so I can get like I have an out I'm like that's having a conversation with my friend I don't know if that makes me

[00:26:16] [SPEAKER_00] anything other than human but I wonder how common that is or I saw something

[00:26:20] [SPEAKER_02] that said most people don't have internal monologue yeah so it's your

[00:26:26] [SPEAKER_00] inner monologue your inner voice these thoughts they're they're typically not

[00:26:30] [SPEAKER_02] positive no and most of the time it's just narrating what I'm doing or what I'm looking at and then when I'm overthinking it's like the bad thoughts of them you know I should have done this in that situation or I wish I could have done that or I should just kill myself or go do this or I should

[00:26:48] [SPEAKER_00] go do this or that or I should have done this or that or said that or I should kill myself these are weighted very differently yes so I wonder how so how often is the thought I should

[00:26:59] [SPEAKER_02] kill myself maybe like every other

[00:27:01] [SPEAKER_00] thought so when so when so in a given day it's several times it's your inner inner voice or inner thoughts we can call it I should kill myself what I want to know is like how do you not

[00:27:12] [SPEAKER_02] kill yourself I'm like really thinking sometimes drinking makes okay yeah and I get it sounds so hard to explain without making it seem like there's like voices or like outside things telling me to do stuff but it's like not bad it's just a matter of like quieting my head down so whether it's just distracting myself or at night I like to drink because it makes my head quiet and I can sleep because my head doesn't stop until I sleep right right

[00:27:38] [SPEAKER_00] right I won't even ask about your dreams at night because I can't even imagine where they're going they've been

[00:27:43] [SPEAKER_02] crazy since starting medication too they've been I've been talking and walking and the meds are affecting the

[00:27:50] [SPEAKER_00] dreams and the vividness yeah for sure yeah sleep man crucial last year things got bad you said October was there something that happened or just kind of started getting really bad I think I

[00:28:02] [SPEAKER_02] just started getting bad and I'm pretty sure that's one like the dynamic with my mom had flipped and that always affects me makes me think badly about myself like why could I not have had like a good mother or I guess I just don't like how I look and how I reacted to certain situations or how like I don't like myself and I don't like some of the things I've done and I haven't even done anything bad I don't know I just don't like myself I guess and sometimes that feels like it's too much and then I

[00:28:30] [SPEAKER_02] feel like I'm a burden to the people that I talk to about it just feel like it would be easier for everyone to or if I

[00:28:37] [SPEAKER_00] were gone it's an interesting word when you say you feel like you're a burden do they ever do things that make you feel

[00:28:45] [SPEAKER_02] like a burden not the people that I'm around now but growing up I felt like a burden in my parents when I get like that it's hard to see it any other way for some reason like I know deep down

[00:28:56] [SPEAKER_00] they don't think that I'm I'm glad that at least they don't think that but one of the reasons I asked that question and it's a bit of a charged thing I'm about to say is if we're being completely honest somebody who's struggling a lot every day can be a burden like the reality is it's hard to support somebody regularly who's struggling that is we could use the word burdensome and so I think when people say I don't know like outsiders mental health advocates like you're not a burden it's like are you sure that everybody in their life feels

[00:29:25] [SPEAKER_00] that way I know you're trying to say the nice thing but if this person feels like a burden it might be in part because people in their lives are giving them messages that they feel like they are a burden like it's not that you're crazy

[00:29:37] [SPEAKER_02] and I felt that way especially around that time because I was struggling so much and I would drink at night and I would just like I would know I was so annoying to deal with and I regret so much of what I said and what I did just because my fiance he is so he's such a good person and he's put up with so much and that's why it's like I'm a burden like he'd be better off if I were dead and like he'll be able to find someone else but yeah I just know that I was really

[00:30:07] [SPEAKER_02] annoying while I was struggling give me

[00:30:09] [SPEAKER_00] an idea what annoying sounds like I

[00:30:12] [SPEAKER_02] don't even know I think I was starting to drink earlier in the day a lot I'd bring up like this specific thing that happened between fiance and I so it was like something that happened when we first started dating and it's not a big deal at all but I hyper fixated on it and I was so paranoid that he didn't like want to be with me or he was only with me because he thought I was going to kill myself if he weren't with me and I would just constantly bring those things up to

[00:30:40] [SPEAKER_02] him and I cry and sob and from there got

[00:30:44] [SPEAKER_00] it the classic snapchat approach okay well in this case it worked but here's the thing some people would be like you're getting married what could be so bad I don't understand why you might want to

[00:30:57] [SPEAKER_02] kill yourself I've thought about that too because I have a nice life again I don't work I have my animals I have everything that I've like ever wanted that if I want to go to school or get a job I can it's not like a weird situation or anything and I don't like I have so many opportunities and I could do so much but I just can't or can't change the way I think or how my brain is

[00:31:23] [SPEAKER_00] that's right having everything is not everything if you don't have your brain that's not functioning in a way that was working for you and not against you and you're trying you're on a couple medications no judgments if you weren't trying I'm just saying you aren't on a couple medications you see a therapist but you're saying several times a day you want to end your life and one of the things that helps you not take action is drinking so at 10 a.m because you're not a 10 a.m drinker I don't think how do you not how do you not take steps towards suicide if your brain your mind your voices the thoughts call whatever

[00:31:52] [SPEAKER_00] you want or saying kill yourself or I don't know if there's what does it say or does it like is there language to

[00:31:57] [SPEAKER_02] it there's no specific like thing it's just again I guess the same thought pattern of like oh I'll think of something that have happened in the past I can't change that and if I'm like standing there like washing dishes or doing something and I don't know I'm standing there holding a knife thought of oh maybe I should just like right here right now and possibly just the next thought comes and I it's just not a thought anymore does this scare you though a little bit

[00:32:24] [SPEAKER_02] I guess the cutting was that I just did whatever a week ago it was very impulsive and I it used to not be impulsive it was like like in school it was more of a habit like for a long time and then this time I didn't really think that much about it because I had so many thoughts about it throughout the day when I was done doing what I was doing for the day I just decided oh I'll do this now and maybe it'll make the thoughts quieter it's just very hard to

[00:32:53] [SPEAKER_00] explain I guess it is hard to explain you're right I mean I get that I get that it is hard to explain like a

[00:32:59] [SPEAKER_02] constant train of thought and then sometimes it pops in the way I should kill myself or cut or whatever yeah but I never think about hurting other people too I was asked that and when I was talking about therapy I've never been homicidal I have to tell you I

[00:33:15] [SPEAKER_00] have a lot of thoughts and a lot of questions and that was not going to be one of them okay like because I don't think most people who are suicidal or homicidal I don't know where that connection ever ever became a thing it's not saying this but they'll often say you're harmed to yourself or others but they'll put it in the same phrase like they'll phrase it in the same way suggesting or maybe implying that those that might harm themselves are more likely to harm others I don't know if there's any truth to that I don't feel

[00:33:44] [SPEAKER_02] like there is at least for me but I didn't know a girl who like she yeah would like have like these really gruesome thoughts about hurting people and she was I mean I don't like using a word but she was just crazy too was she

[00:33:57] [SPEAKER_00] suicidal um yeah yeah okay so in that so there's there's there's an outlier there but yeah although they exist unstable at a minimum disturbed perhaps um just unwell dangerous maybe right like that's a fair thing to say if somebody's trying to kill people like

[00:34:12] [SPEAKER_02] I'm a danger to myself not others right

[00:34:16] [SPEAKER_00] so October to January things are getting bad by April you're on meds by June you're seeing a therapist sometime shortly after that you find a podcast not just any podcast of course and you start binging this podcast because you listen to so many in such a short period of time what are a few things I'm kind of putting you on the spot here but like as a collective body of conversations what are a few things if any that are

[00:34:44] [SPEAKER_00] like you like surprised you or inspire you or anger you like what are there like themes or patterns that you're seeing emerging as you listen to all

[00:34:53] [SPEAKER_02] these the few that like um stood out to me are the one where women have children okay and I still um you know choose to attempt or just I guess I like listening to how their loved ones the reaction I guess and then sometimes also not that that's why I look into it but the different um methods yeah of how people try or some are like surprising in your um episode about your friend I

[00:35:23] [SPEAKER_02] really liked that one but just the way you tell the way you speak or talk that

[00:35:28] [SPEAKER_00] was mostly a story right that was yeah I

[00:35:30] [SPEAKER_02] guess I like how you tell stories yeah and

[00:35:33] [SPEAKER_00] that was and just so you know just to be completely transparent that's not a story I just thought about on them on the spot like that's something I put together not for the podcast it was for I used to do some of that type of thing on stages and tell stories and that was one of them so to be able to take it and then revise a little bit for the podcast was pretty easy so you try to you try to sound natural right you don't want to sound like you're like remembering lines that you wrote down in a book he was he that was wow it was well before you were born yeah the end of his life yeah I'm sorry

[00:36:03] [SPEAKER_00] for your mom all right hey I'm more much more sorry for his family and for him in a way because I think you know it's weird it was the late 90s he was a police officer I don't think they got much support and it's like what the hell are you gonna do when you saw you're struggling and and he happened to be in New York City's tough area where he was so he's around a lot of tough stuff including his own guys I always think

[00:36:26] [SPEAKER_02] because mine are like thoughts that come and go if I were to act on it I feel maybe I'd regret it and never knowing how things could turn out I guess that's one

[00:36:36] [SPEAKER_00] reason people stay alive I suppose no hospitalizations no does that scare you

[00:36:41] [SPEAKER_02] the possibility yes I am struggled love to even tell my therapist psychiatrist about the thoughts because I was worried it would sound like I was like unstable or needed to be hospitalized because again I guess I've never like really been impulsive but if they were to think that I was well obviously no one wants to be but I don't think hospitalization would be something that I would want or that I think would

[00:37:08] [SPEAKER_00] be helpful I think there are people I think there are people that want to be in a hospital not not the majority but they're like that maybe it's probably some of them learn this was a mistake but a lot of people are thinking there's just nowhere else for me to go and I need help that's the real tragedy when they end up getting bad care is like wow that was like their last hope now what so a month ago what are you on are you a Spotify are you Apple what do you use Apple so you just do you type

[00:37:33] [SPEAKER_02] in the word suicide yeah or I think I actually googled because I was like doing stuff out like in the yard whatever and I wanted a podcast to listen to and I'm pretty sure I googled podcast about suicide and then that came up and then I typed it

[00:37:48] [SPEAKER_00] and that ship better been on page one yeah and then what makes you email me though I

[00:37:53] [SPEAKER_02] have no idea I've been drinking tonight that I emailed you okay do you have a

[00:37:58] [SPEAKER_00] beverage nearby right now so I have a

[00:38:01] [SPEAKER_02] drink but I haven't been drinking it because I'm scared of being loud of making too much noise typically you don't drink

[00:38:06] [SPEAKER_00] now but I could understand in this circumstance with this situation you might want you might want a beverage yeah by the way I don't feel weird if you want to drink that's like you can drink even though you're underage and I should probably say but no you know what you want to drink that's fine how many people I might have asked you this but I'm circling around looking actually looking at the same questions I sent you because I want to make sure I ask the questions that I want to ask how many people know about this conversation I'm

[00:38:30] [SPEAKER_02] just my one friend okay you say like I'm

[00:38:33] [SPEAKER_00] I'm talking about mental health or did

[00:38:35] [SPEAKER_02] you say suicide oh suicide she um yeah she knows like and yeah she struggles too so I have always talked to her about

[00:38:45] [SPEAKER_00] right how many other people do you have

[00:38:47] [SPEAKER_02] to talk to about it um I do talk to my fiance I guess um in fall yeah if I've had like a bad day it's easy to be like oh I like can't stop like thinking about it and I feel like he knows why you're

[00:39:04] [SPEAKER_00] not gonna like me the audience isn't gonna like me but I just I gotta say it out loud because it just popped in my head the images of you in your white dress next week standing across from the man that you're gonna marry with the hopes of spending the rest of your life with him I assume usually that's how it works some people bring up different intentions but are you gonna and be this is at the courthouse so it's not gonna be the kind of thing where it's hours long like it might be at a church it's gonna be pretty quick and then you're gonna be probably afterwards celebrating something somewhere at a local restaurant right and if your brain operates on that day like it

[00:39:33] [SPEAKER_00] does every day during your wedding pre during and post you will have suicidal thoughts yeah and the image of that is

[00:39:42] [SPEAKER_02] just striking that's how I've thought about it too because I I do sit and I wonder I have everything why am I still so what's I don't even know the word that's why I feel almost selfish like I have everything why am I still maybe upset all the time or why do I think feel and ask the way I do like I don't understand what's wrong with my brain

[00:40:07] [SPEAKER_00] I was gonna ask you what what do you think it is but you kind of just answered it they're your words but like I don't always think of it as wrong that might be the right word it's your if that's how you sure but like is it something wrong with your brain or is it something else where like but something's making you think these thoughts and that's probably not healthy we could agree on that yeah or maybe yeah but it's like is it wrong I don't mean like ethically wrong I mean just like is it like is there a right way

[00:40:36] [SPEAKER_00] for a brain to be functioning and yours

[00:40:38] [SPEAKER_02] is not that yeah that's how I feel sometimes to what makes it so different from other people's thoughts like I guess I can't believe that some people don't right have thought of killing themselves right I don't know any other any other

[00:40:50] [SPEAKER_00] way well I mean for half your life you've been thinking this way it seems like yeah and it's gotten more intense and also like zero to ten is different than ten to twenty it's a different type of ten years would you ever call or have you ever called nine eighty never would you ever no why

[00:41:07] [SPEAKER_02] not because I feel like the day that I finally come that close to doing it or deciding that I'm ready to do that that'll be my my decision I don't think you don't want sorry I just don't think I would want the help I guess if that's my final decision

[00:41:27] [SPEAKER_00] did your therapist give you a diagnosis

[00:41:29] [SPEAKER_02] that you agree with major depressive sure disorder on generalized anxiety like a form of social anxiety I can't think of the death name and then when I was younger I had select mutism but I was I think three years old I stopped talking and I wouldn't talk when I was nervous or anxious or shy or everyone thought that I was shy but it was like like my psychiatrist said that that was like the first sign that I had anxiety to

[00:41:57] [SPEAKER_02] just completely stop talking I don't remember how long I wasn't talking for maybe close to a year or so now that is

[00:42:04] [SPEAKER_00] not a small period of time other than alcohol what if anything helps you feel a little better a little less shitty

[00:42:11] [SPEAKER_02] distracting myself so listening to podcasts and stories and doing stuff around the house I have a bunch of animals so I have to take care of them and I have to get up like forcing myself to do things your

[00:42:26] [SPEAKER_00] animals need you man that's important so that we got I got three big questions left and then I'm gonna ask you to add anything else you want I don't know if there were things that were on your mind or you wrote down but myths and misconceptions I want the one or two that make you just livid or just so confused or

[00:42:46] [SPEAKER_02] just so whatever so we talked about it and I know everyone says it but that it's selfish yeah coming from people who have never experienced thought or ideation or people have never I don't want to say suffered either because but if you've never had those thoughts or you've never struggled with anything then you have no right to say that people are selfish or

[00:43:12] [SPEAKER_00] right I like the way you frame that you

[00:43:14] [SPEAKER_02] have no right yeah you don't have right to an opinion if you've never experienced it you can't judge something you know well let

[00:43:23] [SPEAKER_00] me push back I've used this example before but not because I agree with you by the way that in terms of selfishness or not being selfish but like I'm never gonna be pregnant but I can empathize but that's me empathizing I mean I'm not being critical yeah you're saying you're saying if I haven't gone through something I have no right to be critical of what they might be feeling or experiencing yes and then people will be like I have rights it's like I think you're misinterpreting what Maggie's saying we're not referencing the constitution here

[00:43:54] [SPEAKER_02] so I'm trying to think but I don't think you would think this way but if you lost someone close to you to suicide and you are like deeply affected by it I guess like if it's but I feel like a lot of people don't think that way if it's like someone close to them versus people from the outside being like oh that's so selfish like this and that like maybe if you're someone who's watched someone struggling you don't think that way the

[00:44:17] [SPEAKER_00] people who have lost somebody and they're deeply affected and I think that's pretty common but like in that case they're less likely to think it's selfish that's what I think yeah because they understand the struggle yeah you have no right now now that that does kind of transition good into my next point here which is the memoir title what are we gonna do with Maggie's memoir title I mean you still got a lot of years out of you don't worry I have no idea I mean don't tell me you didn't think about it a little bit as you

[00:44:46] [SPEAKER_00] were listening to all those episodes come

[00:44:48] [SPEAKER_02] on you're human no I wasn't I came up with nothing I'm not an interesting person

[00:44:54] [SPEAKER_00] wait a second wait a minute this is the way my brain works we don't have the same brain I got my brain you get your brain I am not an interesting person is not a terrible memoir title I don't know if it's the winner but like

[00:45:06] [SPEAKER_02] it's so honest yeah I have nothing that like stands out about me I feel like my life experience has been average average

[00:45:15] [SPEAKER_00] right I'm not the type to be super validating people know that about me but I I'm pretty sure if we asked your partner fiance soon-to-be husband he might disagree a little bit with that

[00:45:25] [SPEAKER_02] statement I mean average with a different

[00:45:29] [SPEAKER_00] brain saving my favorite question for last do you know what this question is Maggie in Ohio you have listened to every single episode pink and purple so yes thank you you have no right to not remember that okay so for new listeners the pink and purple pill question is quite simply I give Maggie a pill if she swallows it she goes to sleep she can have some white wine if she wants with it that's a choice

[00:45:56] [SPEAKER_00] there's absolutely no pain she never wakes up and and nobody knows it's a suicide it's essentially the easiest out you can create today a week or so before your wedding how to throw that one in there Maggie yeah what do you do with that pill save it you save it wine maybe

[00:46:16] [SPEAKER_02] I'll give marriage and having children a try and if it's not for me then I'm not not for me but if I'm gonna keep thinking this way all my life then I will never get better I can never change how I think and I'd want to be done I think I would have experienced all that I would

[00:46:32] [SPEAKER_00] want to I mean the brain does change sometimes it's without the medication so there's definitely some hope there but I think when I hear that and I'm not trying to do some mirroring stuff or any psychobabble but sure you don't know how mothering might being a mom might change you or being a wife even though you're kind of already a wife it's just not on paper right I don't think getting a piece of paper it changes things right there's a sort of level of commitment but anyway

[00:46:57] [SPEAKER_02] anyway I digress that's exactly how I feel

[00:46:59] [SPEAKER_00] tax forms will be a little different next year that's all is this an accurate or near accurate statement I can't imagine living the next x number of years 10 20 30 40 50 60 I mean by the time you're 60 the average lifespan will be 90 so you're 70 I can't imagine living with this brain for that

[00:47:18] [SPEAKER_02] long yeah if my brain is the same I can't imagine living to my full life expectancy

[00:47:24] [SPEAKER_00] so then what's the number maybe 50 oh you can do 30 more years of this okay you're resilient you're resilient man I just feel

[00:47:34] [SPEAKER_02] like there are some days that it's worse worse than others and some days it's easier to brush off or not act on some days it's harder so maybe one of those days when it's really hard yeah maybe that'll be the junk if I yeah but I think it would be crazy if I made it 250 like I never thought I would even turn like 18 does your

[00:47:57] [SPEAKER_00] therapist know that oh no I don't want to pick on your therapist I mean I I'm in a totally different role and I'm asking all these sort of like super weird questions I wonder how common that is it's like almost definitely more common than we think almost everything we're talking about is more common than we think because no one really talks about it I wonder for example how many people in their late teens and early 20s are thinking there's no way I'm making it to 50 I feel like when

[00:48:20] [SPEAKER_02] other people think it or like have that thought oh I'm not gonna make it to this age it's because they're like people who maybe like take risk or like not thinking in like a suicide way but like if that makes

[00:48:32] [SPEAKER_00] sense yeah like they're the type of person who just drives 140 on their motorcycle without a helmet it's like eventually yeah so I feel

[00:48:39] [SPEAKER_02] like there's fun ways of feeling that way and my way of feeling that way like some people

[00:48:44] [SPEAKER_00] are aware enough to know like I'm drinking and drugging and so risk that I'm not making it to 25 and you're not that person you're a drinker we don't know where that's gonna go but yours is more like at some point it's just I'm gonna have the thought and I'm gonna do

[00:48:58] [SPEAKER_02] it maybe now all my medications and my drinking maybe I won't make it I know in a

[00:49:06] [SPEAKER_00] week week or so you're getting married you've mentioned kids if in one year to the day I email you and say hey Maggie do you want to do an update episode with me what are the chances that Maggie's alive and she can see

[00:49:19] [SPEAKER_02] that email I feel like pretty good pretty good yeah now I feel a little different I feel like maybe my brain has changed a little bit since moving out of my parents house I feel like maybe one day I will have hope because I just think differently I'm in a different environment and I feel like I have to learn how to get out of like that mentality and realize it's not the same and I don't have to live like in constant

[00:49:47] [SPEAKER_02] I don't know because I thought so negatively for so long it's all that I really know and it's hard to not think that way so yeah maybe one day

[00:49:57] [SPEAKER_00] oh maybe one maybe one day is a title possibly it's probably already a song that's copyrighted but we'll still use it but I wonder I wonder what the rest of this year is like for you and uh anything else you want to talk about or share before we get back to

[00:50:11] [SPEAKER_02] our exciting lives I'm gonna ask you something about the alcohol um yeah yeah no I guess it wasn't a question it was more of um I like I know I have an issue I guess but again seeing people online and like oh I used to be an alcoholic and I would drink this much a day and do that much and they were acting like okay maybe it's not like that big of an issue like I don't go out and act crazy or I don't know but I know it is an issue

[00:50:40] [SPEAKER_00] I hope that one thank you again for talking with me I really appreciate it

[00:50:44] [SPEAKER_02] thank you

[00:50:45] [SPEAKER_00] I wish you a joyous wedding uh what's the rest of your day like

[00:50:50] [SPEAKER_02] nothing taking care of my animals I started a new puzzle then I found a new podcast because I found a show of yours and not about suicide but murder it's called beyond the monster um you don't you don't you don't like the

[00:51:04] [SPEAKER_00] stuff that's talking about unicorns and uh

[00:51:06] [SPEAKER_02] and sunflowers do you no I don't I feel like I'm like empathizing with people I like the people on your podcast and people survive stuff like that like yeah I find it very interesting and like tickles something in my brain

[00:51:21] [SPEAKER_00] how does it feel to be the person who's going to be on the podcast and people out there will hear you

[00:51:25] [SPEAKER_02] it's so weird to me because I'm not an outgoing person I usually don't talk like this

[00:51:29] [SPEAKER_00] this is you talking more than you usually do

[00:51:32] [SPEAKER_02] yes yeah for sure um and I don't like talking about myself normally like even now thinking like I did not say anything interesting whatsoever

[00:51:42] [SPEAKER_00] you're gonna do what you're gonna do and then nothing I say is gonna change this but I hope that you don't use our conversation as more fuel to fucking hate yourself or dislike yourself or think you're not good enough or whatever whatever you're whatever the things are like from my point of view I enjoyed our conversation I thought it was quite interesting and uh and I appreciate your time ma'am

[00:52:02] [SPEAKER_04] thank you

[00:52:03] [SPEAKER_00] you're welcome enjoy your day and uh and as my people would say with respect to next Friday mazel tov congratulations

[00:52:10] [SPEAKER_03] thank you

[00:52:12] [SPEAKER_00] all right have a good day Maggie take care appreciate it

[00:52:14] [SPEAKER_03] thank you bye

[00:52:17] [SPEAKER_00] as always thanks so much for listening and all of your support special thanks to Maggie in Ohio thanks Maggie if you are a suicide attempt survivor or ideator and you'd like to talk please reach out hello at suicidenoted.com I'd love to talk with you check out themissingrecord.com and or seangwellington.com for some other cool shit I've been involved in maybe it's your thing maybe somebody you know only if you are of course the curious type but hey if you are here and you listen to this episode I thank you

[00:52:47] [SPEAKER_00] sincerely and that is all for this week's episode stay strong do the best you can I'll talk to you soon