M in New Brunswick 🇨🇦

[00:00:00] It was like 2, 3 in the morning and I just found myself staring in the mirror trying to bore into my own soul. This voice come out. It just said, dude, you're fucking done, man. Hey there, my name is Sean and this is Suicide Noted.

[00:00:37] On this podcast, I talk with suicide attempt survivors so that we can hear their stories. Every year around the world, millions of people try to take their own lives and we almost never talk about it.

[00:00:47] We certainly don't talk about it enough and when we do, many of us including me, we're not very good at it. So one of my goals with this podcast is to have more conversations and hopefully better conversations with attempt survivors

[00:00:58] in large part to help or try to help more people in more places feel a little less shitty and a little less alone. Now if you are a suicide attempt survivor and you'd like to talk, please reach out.

[00:01:08] Hello at suicidenoted.com on Facebook or Twitter slash X at suicide noted. You can check the show notes to learn more about this podcast including our membership. And a special thanks to our members, our lifetime members or monthly members. Your contributions help a lot.

[00:01:25] And of course to everybody who's involved or participates, guests, listeners, everyone out there. Thank you very much. I really do appreciate it. A quick note if you rate and review Suicide Noted, it helps people find it. And of course that is what we want.

[00:01:39] Finally, we are talking about suicide on this podcast and we don't hold back. So please take that into account before you listen or as you listen. But I do hope you listen because there's so much to learn. Today I am talking with Em.

[00:01:52] Em lives in New Brunswick, Canada and he is a suicide attempt survivor. Em in Canada. Hello. Where exactly are you Em? I am in New Brunswick, Canada. You know that we don't know what the fuck any of that is, right?

[00:02:08] Yeah, I realized that. We border the state of Maine. I love that. Let's dumb it down for the bald guy. No, no, it's fair. I got it. What is New Brunswick's claim to fame or perhaps even your town?

[00:02:21] Oh, the claim to fame like I live man, like in a basically like a summer resort town right on the ocean. It gets very busy here in the summer. We're really the hub of Maritime Canada here. There's Nova Scotia, Prince Edward Island, Newfoundland and New Brunswick.

[00:02:38] That makes up Maritime Canada. That's your geography lesson for today. And that's what actually that was one of the things that drew me to your podcast because it was like, oh, I really like this. The first few I was listening to,

[00:02:50] you know, there were Americans and I'm totally cool with that. And then I was scrolling up my phone. I'm like a chick from New Brunswick.

[00:02:56] I got it. I got a click on that. And all of a sudden, like, oh, this is a much more wider audience than I was expecting. By the way, audience, I mean, it was listening. M and I are going to use language that we choose to use.

[00:03:09] So if M says something like chick and you're offended, it's simply that the police language are not fucking here. The cancel culture bullshit is not here. No, the woman who's listening who you like, I'm not. Don't call me chick.

[00:03:24] Am I not kind of canceling her now? You see, there's no way to win. I hear you. I hear you, man. That's cool. You can bring that up like, you know, talk and it comes off, rolls off the tongue.

[00:03:35] And sometimes I get, you know, it's like as I'm talking to you and I see you and I'm just like, oh, I'm just talking with another dude. And sometimes dudes talk stupid to other dudes and they don't necessarily.

[00:03:46] Yeah. I mean, let us not let us not hide the fact that most people probably can already figure out we're just two middle aged white guys. We are. Yeah. Yeah, totally. Right. So, yeah, we're middle aged white guys.

[00:03:59] If I had to guess, you know, even though my income doesn't show it, we probably have middle class ish backgrounds. So, yeah, that comes with what it is. We are who we are. That influences who we are and how we talk and all that shit.

[00:04:12] Of course, I'm sure a lot of people were thinking we're like teenage Latinas. So I want to clear that up. We're probably the furthest removed from that that you can possibly be. So in many ways, yes. You're sitting outside. Is this or it's in a porch area?

[00:04:28] Yeah, it's actually a sunroom. Man, if I had a sunroom, my mental health would go up at least one point. I absolutely love this room on this house, man. I get faces south. I get sun for three quarters of the day.

[00:04:42] And today just happens to be really nice out. And it's just like, oh, yeah, I'm going to do this. I'm going to do this thing with Sean in the sunroom. Yeah, of course. I really like how you do stuff, man.

[00:04:55] Like otherwise I wouldn't even have agreed to do this because I really like how you let the color take it. Wherever that wherever it goes is where it goes. And you're you know, you're cool with that.

[00:05:06] And that's one of the things that really drew me to even responding to you. So I appreciate that. Also, the fact that you are here and I know you have some ongoing sleep things. Yeah, I've struggled with sleep.

[00:05:18] Like it's probably the biggest challenge I have in my life. And it's a it's a it's continuing from my time doing shift work in law enforcement. I've battled and struggled with sleep and I continue to do so.

[00:05:31] And one morning to another countless night where I'm staring at the ceiling. How often I walk to the bathroom and I'm like exhausted mentally, physically. Hadn't slept in like this was like the third, fourth night in a row. Like zero sleep.

[00:05:46] And I'm and I'm staring at myself in the mirror. It was weird. It was like two, three in the morning. And I just found myself staring in the mirror right in my own trying to bore into my own soul. This voice come out.

[00:06:00] It just said, dude, you're fucking done, man. And it kind of struck me as what do you mean? What do you mean? Because since I was a young kid, I'm the kind of guy that like frickin works hard. I'm committed. I'm dedicated. I'm disciplined.

[00:06:15] I put the frickin work in. I'm not afraid of getting hurt or dirty or none of that stuff. So the whole the whole like you're done thing. It struck me. It struck me. What is this? And what kind of voice is this?

[00:06:29] Like I'm not talking to anything schizophrenic. I'm just talking about that inner voice that I think we all have as consciousness or whatever the hell it is. And it just said, dude, you're done. Holy shit.

[00:06:42] I spent like 20 minutes looking at myself in the mirror, which in itself is weird. Like who is this guy in the mirror? And then I just sat down on the couch. It's the middle of the night.

[00:06:53] I could just feel all the drive, whatever it takes to get on with your day. It just drained out of me. It was just like, you know what? Fuck it, man. Like I am frickin wiped out. There's a long history of what brought me to that mirror.

[00:07:11] And so this was about two months ago. Like in your podcast, you say, well, where do you want to start? I'm kind of starting at the end.

[00:07:18] And one of the things you wrote in the email or it might have been the email in response to my response was one of the episodes that struck you was actually mine in that I was telling a story.

[00:07:31] My best friend who like you was also, I believe he was a police officer. Were you a police officer? I was, yes. Frontline. Frontline, man. My friend was in New York City working in the projects. That's hard shit. Yeah, very much. Yeah, you're jogging my memory.

[00:07:45] That's exactly why I chose to email you. It was like, oh man, this guy had a fricking friend, if not best friend. Best friend. That took himself out. And I'm just like, oh shit, I got to email this Sean guy. Like, oh shit. And that was years ago.

[00:07:59] New York City at the time was transitioning a little bit. It was still kind of old school. You know, I don't want to say anything offensive, but I know for sure that his career would have been in jeopardy if he had chosen to get some help.

[00:08:12] That's what I've learned. I don't know if it's true. I just know that's what I've learned about it. No, no question. Anyway, that's a whole other fucking long conversation and maybe even podcast.

[00:08:22] But one of the things that you shared with me was that there are so few people you've heard, in some language around the idea that I haven't talked to many people, if maybe only a couple, who were in law enforcement.

[00:08:35] That's why I'm sitting with you right now, Sean. When I had that moment a few months ago and I started thinking to myself, like, am I pushed to the edge here? What does done mean?

[00:08:47] And so I started getting curious about what does it take for other people to be done, pushed over the edge? And that's what got me researching suicide.

[00:08:57] I was like, well, I don't really know what to enter in the search engine here, but I think it's kind of like suicide. I think that's what the voice meant when it said you're done. It's just like, you know what? Done.

[00:09:08] It didn't take long for your podcast to come up. What's this all about? I was curious. All right. I clicked on it and started, oh, there's stories about people who have attempted and failed or not. And I was like, this is exactly what I was looking for.

[00:09:25] What takes people to that? And am I in that ballpark? I was very, very curious. I listened to probably half a dozen episodes back to back to back. And what I really liked, how varied they were in demographic, guys and gals from different ages and backgrounds.

[00:09:44] And as I got listening to more and more of them, I was like, oh, okay. So it took that person to have that happen in their life. Some people have been kind of on the edge their whole life. Others not so much.

[00:09:59] And I started relating to a few of these stories about life and what happens. And it dawned on me after about a couple hours, I'm like, wait a minute. Emergency services is not equally represented in this podcast. Yeah, no, no, no. You are absolutely right.

[00:10:19] And that's when I stumbled upon your episode with you and your friend. And it was like, well, I don't know. I got to bring more focus on that particular topic because I know for sure that it's a thing. Police, fire, ambulance, the big three. Right.

[00:10:33] And I don't care what country or if you're a freaking New York cop or a freaking Royal Canadian mounted police like me. Policing is policing on the front line. And so is fire and ambulance. And that's what struck me.

[00:10:47] I started thumbing and scrolling through episodes and just clicking on the name. And I really like your format of how you have the little sound clip. Thank you.

[00:10:57] I think that's fantastic, man, because I click on that and then you get like a 15, 20 second little blurb of kind of what the episode is going to be like. And I've started clicking on a few like looking for police, fire, ambulance. Like where are these guys?

[00:11:13] Underrepresented is an understatement. It is absolutely true. You know why there are more women who are on the podcast? Probably about 70% on this podcast because men don't fucking talk. There you go. You know why there's almost no front liners?

[00:11:28] Probably you'll tell me why, because I'm guessing they don't talk. They have a certain disposition. Sometimes there might be consequences, this and this and that. And we'll hear you and you represent in part all of those people. That's fucking why, though.

[00:11:43] But I would fucking love to talk to people who are simply not here very often. Yeah. With cops in particular, how do they try to end their lives? The phrase that you used is, as I pointed out in that email, they eat their gun. They eat their gun.

[00:11:58] So yes, some of them don't work, but more times than not, especially if you know how to use a gun, you're dead. So they can't talk with me, even if they wanted to. Exactly. They're very, very successful. They don't attempt. They succeed.

[00:12:12] And look, I'll never know what happened in the locker room of Ravenswood Precinct exactly. I only know from, I don't know, some stupid fucking article in the newspaper that was 90% wrong. But he put the gun in his mouth, man. He knows what the fuck he's doing. Yeah.

[00:12:28] My hope is that it was instant, and it probably was. I've been to many, many scenes where that's been the method of choice, and it's instant. One of the questions I want to ask you, because I'm really curious about what it's like to be around.

[00:12:44] Now, you're around a lot of shit as a police officer, but given the nature of this podcast… Sean, if I can clarify just for… Like, I've been retired from policing for 11 years now. It's no longer part of my life. I don't hang out with cops. I don't shop.

[00:13:00] But you remember dealing with suicides? Oh, absolutely. And given what we're talking about, that will be a question I ask about. Okay. Because a lot of people don't come upon things where they see a dead person who took their life. Right.

[00:13:13] Any dead person, but with the fucking noose around their neck and they're hanging or whatever. And we don't need to get super graphic because it doesn't help anything here. No. But I'm going to ask you about it. I want to go back first, but what is that like?

[00:13:26] Because again, I haven't had the opportunity to ask that kind of question to many people. You had said earlier that you were wondering, am I in the ballpark of some of the people you're hearing on the podcast?

[00:13:36] My question to you is, are you, as we speak, in the ballpark? Similarly with a number of your guests. Not so much with others. Like, I've never had a lifetime of despair. The whole ideation thing is pretty new to me.

[00:13:55] Like, I'm 54 years old, retired from policing 11 years ago. I've got some miles under my belt. I've noticed that a lot of your guests, not so much. But I don't judge these people. I'm like, hey, you can be in different states of mind at 20, I have no doubt.

[00:14:12] But that's not where I come from. Right, right. When I ask you if you're in the ballpark, what I'm asking you is essentially, as we speak, and this was only two months ago, this incident in the bathroom.

[00:14:26] But the ongoing everything else, sleep, and you're probably unearthing other shit. Are you suicidal? No, I'm not. But it's creeping in, man. Like, it's starting to become more and more in the forefront. Like, I'm thinking more about it. The last two months have been brutal.

[00:14:47] Like, I told two of my really close friends. I'm like, man, it feels like my brain has flatlined. Things that used to bring me joy and pleasure, nothing. There's no happiness register up here anymore. I'm getting through the day, and the days just feel like they're dark.

[00:15:07] So to answer your question, no, I don't feel like, oh, you know what? I think I'm just going to check out. But it feels like that's kind of creeping into my future. It does feel like that.

[00:15:19] You know, again, if I'm to retell kind of my life story, it would make more sense. Because up until this point, it's just been, what's this retired pop dude? Like, went into the bathroom, and well, there's a lot of history there.

[00:15:32] And the biggest thing is a recent divorce, like a recent ending of a relationship that absolutely floored me. Like, I think it was like the next level of despair. When that relationship came apart, it was like, holy shit, serious.

[00:15:49] That was a year and a half ago that my wife and I split physically. And it's been a year and a half of absolute hell. And I think that moment in the bathroom staring at myself was like a moment of,

[00:16:03] all right, man, it's been a year and a half of frickin' brutal emotional turmoil, despair, call it what you will, led to that moment. However, having said that, my career in law enforcement was very damaging to me psychologically, emotionally. Not so much physically.

[00:16:22] Took a few punches in the head, but physically, whatever. I can live with that. But my career on the front line, when I reflect back on it, I'm just like, holy shit. At the time, of course, you don't really notice it. I was going to ask that, yeah.

[00:16:36] I was only 23 years old when I was a cop. What do you know at 23? You don't know shit from nothing. And I'm going and dealing with people's domestic problems and violence. I remember the first call I went to that involved someone with mental health issues.

[00:16:51] It was very early in my service. I was still 23 years old. I think about that now, like, 23 is a kid. You know? And I may have been a little more mature for my age than, say,

[00:17:05] the average, but still, you know, I come from kind of a middle class background. I was never really subjected to violence in my life. And to be thrown into it like, all right, you now do this for a living. Guess what?

[00:17:20] And I remember my first call dealing with someone with a mental health issue. My first thought was, why the hell are the police involved? Oh, man. Don't get me started, my friend. I know. And that's the thing.

[00:17:33] And I've heard so many terrible stories from your listeners and your guests of the experiences they've had with the police and their involvement, just like, oh, God, I feel so bad for these people because I was on the other side of that many, many, many times. Yeah.

[00:17:52] And it really shook me to the core. I don't know how it was for you, but in general, police are wholly unequipped and untrained to deal with a lot of those situations, period. They just resort to what they know. That's often a problem in those cases.

[00:18:06] Not always, but often. Right? So imagine when you were breaking down in your bathroom and someone was concerned and they busted in and handcuffed you. You're like, what the fuck? I'm not ripping on you or the police, by the way. I'm not.

[00:18:18] I'm just saying they're not trained and there's a lack of awareness on the top. I will never defend police. I have nothing to do with them anymore. I will not defend the actions of the police.

[00:18:29] There's been many times where I've been, it's like, holy shit, I feel like a shame that I was even an agent of the government. The things that I had to do in the name of law enforcement. So many times, man, like it's called law enforcement.

[00:18:42] It's not called opinion enforcement. Like so many times I had to do things I didn't agree with. Oh, Jesus. As a human, as a person in uniform. And that's what is so easy to overlook is like, you know, that guy or gal

[00:18:59] wearing the fricking uniform actually believe it or not, that's a human. And again, back to like one of my first experiences dealing with people with mental health issues and thinking why are the police called? Well, this person is having an episode, whatever you want to in their

[00:19:16] neighbor's backyard, they've unclothed themselves, swinging on their kids' swing and the neighbor phoned. Yeah, my neighbor is like crazy and you got to come and get them out of here. Well, how do you deal with that as a 23 year old? I hope you weren't alone. Yeah. Fuck.

[00:19:36] I was completely alone because in the, in the mounted police and the RCMP, it's rural policing for the most part. And you always like, not always, but many, many, many times respond solo. That's a completely different ball game. Completely different.

[00:19:52] You have to have a lot of good, solid judgment to sort out a situation by yourself. And I remember going to that call. There's this woman in her mid forties on the neighbor swing set naked. My instructions, it's pretty simple.

[00:20:08] She needs to go to the hospital and all these horror stories about hospitals. I can confirm that because I've taken people to those places against their will. It is so un-fun. That's the right word.

[00:20:22] And so I go up to her and I'm in, in my head, I'm thinking, you know what? This person, she deserves the most compassion that you can possibly give because look at this situation. Like, what does it take to get to a, to that?

[00:20:36] And I try and talk and be as gentle and calming as I can. And she's not having anything to do with it. And so there comes a point where I'm going to have to physically take hold of this person.

[00:20:50] I don't want to, I don't want to at all. I would just like her to say, you know what? Okay, let's go, Mr. Nice policeman. I would love, I would have loved that. Nope. So I take one hold and I'm telling you, man, she went from fairly docile.

[00:21:06] It was an absolute crazy fight. And I knew that that was a potential outcome, but I'm telling you, I was not expecting a full blown cage match, fricking fight. Right. Holy shit. It's just an impossible situation.

[00:21:25] And all the while I'm thinking in my head, I can't believe what I'm doing. They said nothing about this in training. Yeah. They usually don't talk about that stuff. But if you add that shit up over 30 years or 20 years, whether, you know,

[00:21:38] whether you realize it or not, that that fucks with someone. And by the way, it's interesting. You were saying a 23 and I don't know shit, but yet at the same time you were saying, you know, our memories are funny.

[00:21:49] So I don't know if this is how you were at 23 or now reflecting back the fact that you thought what she needs more than anything else is compassion is, well, you knew something to 23 clearly. Sean, I've always been a sensitive person.

[00:22:01] You know, I don't want to throw the word empath around. Yeah. Cause I wouldn't, I'm not an empath. However, there were a lot of times when I responded to calls where I felt so

[00:22:13] bad for the people that I had to like, Oh, like many, many times going home after shift, not able to sleep because I'm thinking about these people and the terrible situations they're in. And my God, what would I like?

[00:22:26] And I knew that there was one time where I knew I was more sensitive than I should be. This was a few years in my career. Reality was starting to really hit me like, Holy shit.

[00:22:36] I've been exposed to the real world quite a bit now in terms of what I was doing on the job and the violence. And about five or seven years into my career, get a call.

[00:22:47] Somebody hit a, hit a deer on the highway and we got these calls all the time. I'm like, okay, all right. So I'd go out and you know, no problem. Nobody hurt and minor accident. I go out and I'm kneeling by this deer and it's alive still.

[00:23:03] And I just felt overwhelmed with emotion, both sidearm. And I'm like talking to this deer, you know what? I hate to do this to you. And boom, you know, nine millimeter in the head from point blank. And I just had like this minor little breakdown.

[00:23:21] I started crying on the side of the highway about this innocent creature that I had to like kill. And I caught myself like, dude, you better get a grip man. Like you better freaking get a hold of it.

[00:23:34] And I kind of knew at that point, I think shit's building up. When was that? Mid late nineties. The impulse makes complete sense to me. Get a grip, get a hold of yourself. I mean, you've got work to do. Yeah. But you cannot do that thing.

[00:23:49] For most people there are, I'm sure exceptions. If you just white knuckle it that way and get a grip and get a hold and you just get on with it because you have your work and other shit in your life. At the time you might've been married, right?

[00:24:00] You were married for quite some time. Most people break. I don't know if that's right. Maybe someone, someone will email me, but like actually only 33% of people break. I don't fucking know. It's a lot. Yeah.

[00:24:10] And you thought, and you were thinking back then more than 20 years ago now. Is that right? That's when it might've not that moment necessarily, but like, you're not the same guy. I knew that emotions were starting to pile up in my head because I'm crying

[00:24:24] on the side of the highway about putting a deer down. Something's not right here. Like, and I, and I kind of knew at that point, I think there's a backlog of emotions going on in my head and I just, I pushed it down.

[00:24:36] I just like, man, you cannot, what are you going to show up to the next call fricking crying? Like seriously, that is a pivotal moment. That was a moment of self-reflection that I knew psychologically, mentally, emotionally, something was backing up and then I needed a release.

[00:24:56] I took two minutes to fricking literally cry on the side of the highway. All the shit you've seen and dealt with that you never showed any emotion. I think that was a bit of a release just now.

[00:25:06] Like I knew that again, I was in my mid late twenties at that point. So I had a little more life under my belt, but were you married then? No. Would your friends or colleagues would they've seen any difference? Not one bit.

[00:25:19] And I made sure of that because the show, any kind of like any looseness in the armor, you just can't not in that line of work. What happens if you do? Oh, like if I would have came in and told one of my colleagues, you

[00:25:33] know what guys, I just had a crying episode on the side of the highway. Maybe their first response would have been well shit. Well that what happened, but in their head, they would have been thinking, can I rely on this guy in a gunfight?

[00:25:46] Like, can I rely on this guy when the shit really hits? He's crying over a deer. Can I count on him when the shit hits the fan? And it was absolutely paramount to me in my career that all my colleagues knew if shit gets real, I'm there.

[00:26:02] Do you think there's a connection between somebody who's crying? Let's say you, the example you gave and not being reliable in a gunfight. Man, that's a question. Obviously not Sean, because I was the most reliable guy when shit hit the fan that there will ever.

[00:26:19] I was the first guy through the door. I was the guy willing to always, always. So clearly having that moment on the side of the highway did not affect my ability to be there. But now I don't know how would, how would all leagues feel?

[00:26:36] We're not talking about you crying 18 hours a day, nonstop. It's a little different. No judgment. That's a little different. Right? So you wouldn't be able to be there because you're crying and you literally couldn't hold a gun steadily. There's no space allowed for emotions.

[00:26:49] Like there just isn't like sitting around the coffee table with the boys and I worked with lots of female cops too. Most of them were tough as nails. And if you said, you know what? Yeah.

[00:27:04] I had a little crying episode on the highway the other day, it would be fricking cricket silence. You, what happened? What's interesting is that the, some of the people in that room had a similar experience, but they're not talking about it either.

[00:27:17] I was just about to say truth be known, people in that room would have probably been, Holy shit. I cried last month after I ran over a whatever, like some sort of minor thing that kind of pushed them to that emotional ledge.

[00:27:31] But then in some cases you're dealing with your job being jeopardized. So of course you're not going to talk like that's your livelihood. Absolutely. Your identity for some people, like, come on. Yeah. You'd actually be really kind of dumb to talk. Exactly.

[00:27:46] Like if the boss would have caught wind that, wait a minute, one of my guys is on the side of the highway and has this mini breakdown. Yeah. I need to talk to you in my office. Right. What's going on? Well, I, no, nothing.

[00:27:58] I just, what do you mean? Nothing. Okay. I'm going to make an appointment for the, with the force psychologist. It'll be, Oh fuck. Really? An appointment with the four psychologist is like, Oh frick. That's a fast track to getting your ass into a situation. Is that right?

[00:28:14] Well, cause now I got a lie. I do not want to lie. I hate lying. And when I have to lie to protect my ass, my job and my career and my, and my standing with my colleagues, which was the most important thing.

[00:28:28] Thankfully it never came to that. That's what's tricky about it. Cause it's a psychologist within that agency or whatever we're calling, as opposed to me going to a psychologist privately in an office somewhere and it just stays between us unless it's really extreme.

[00:28:41] They let at least one person know about your meeting. Yes. And that changes everything. You don't have confidence. I don't know what it's like now. I don't know if it's changed in 11 years. Probably not. I don't know. Given what you've shared thus far, I am guessing your childhood

[00:28:58] was kind of normal. It was mostly okay. You don't look back and think that was a moment when I was seven years old with my mom that led me to. No. And that's kind of what I was thinking that I could bring to your podcast

[00:29:12] and your listeners is a little different perspective. Okay. Well, here's a dude that was a cop for 20 years in the front line. Wonder what that was like? Why is he having a moment in front of the mirror 11 years after retiring one way? Yeah. That's different.

[00:29:29] I don't know how many I'm going to say middle-aged men. It could be women. It could be older, younger, but because that's what we are. And that's what I rarely I've talked to for lack of a better men like us, I wasn't a cop.

[00:29:41] So I use that very like loosely, but I think it's interesting even to zoom out more beyond being someone who served on the front line. There are a lot of men, a lot probably skewing even more in rural

[00:29:52] areas, at least that's, you know, I think in like out West all areas, they hit an age. They find themselves either in a miserable relationship or alone compromise relationships elsewhere with maybe family or friends for whatever the reasons are. They're living a look an isolated life.

[00:30:06] There's loneliness creeping in there's drugs or alcohol. Hey, you cope you deal you got to get through the fucking day or you need to sleep. Maybe you have firearms, you know, and it just starts to be and then you're looking at the mirror. Exactly. Yes.

[00:30:22] This is marriage number two for me, man. I grew up as a kid and I remember being in my teenage years and I was convinced beyond any belief. I was going to be a family man. I was going to be a one married freaking dude for sure.

[00:30:36] Yeah, I was going to be an excellent father. That's who I am. Okay. Well fast forward for can 40 years 35 years second divorce. I don't have any kids that never happened because I've had up my relationships through the years have been absolute freaking disasters.

[00:30:53] And here I am newly freaking single alone. I'm renting a freaking room at my buddy's house. That's cool. It's 18 not so much 54 like this is part of why I stared in the mirror. Holy fuck man, like here you are like again this this last divorce was is

[00:31:11] kind of like the straw that broke like was just like I can't believe it. I can't not believe yeah you and when you say that you're not using the like colloquial way we say I can't believe it.

[00:31:20] You're literally saying I cannot believe this is my life like my brain. It's not computing. I'm not making the connections in my nodding my head. I'm like because I'm like, you know, there's a lot of differences but

[00:31:31] I'm like nodding my head because I'm like I get that this is not the script never that this was never part of the fucking script and then he not even close not even close. Yeah, and it's not from a lack of hard work.

[00:31:44] That's one of the things that that gets me is like because I self reflect a lot right like I'm I'm I'm a very hard critically. I'm as okay. What'd you do man? Where'd you screw up? What's the deal and I'm like, okay, you did that like you work.

[00:31:59] Wow. Did you work hard made a lot of mistakes obviously made a shit ton of mistakes along the way to end up like I said in this situation with all these shit. I just don't have the energy and the drive and the motivation to pick it

[00:32:14] all up again. And when you I know it might be too soon or maybe it's going to be never have you tried to date? Yeah, I've done that in the last couple months and I'm telling you man. The coffees are one thing and I can do that.

[00:32:28] I'm pretty good socially like I'm fairly adept at what it takes to have a back and forth the sex thing. I felt so fucking guilty afterwards that it was devastating freaking devastating to me my wife and I have been moved split 18 months and I still

[00:32:47] have all kinds of baggage of my marriage my soon to be ex-wife what that means. So yeah to answer your question been down there and I can't say I like it a whole lot such a hit to my sense of self-worth.

[00:33:02] Yeah, I've been a homeowner since I was 23 that whole thing of owning a home and doing the whole investing in preparing and the money and the freaking having it all lined up fucking exploded two years ago, man.

[00:33:15] I don't need to go into what a divorce is the money just like hundred dollar bills are just on fire just left vacant emotionally spiritually financially. That's one thing at 34 at 54. I'm just like I don't think I got it in me to rebuild man.

[00:33:32] Yeah, a couple things that I think are important in my story. I responded to a call one time and it was a domestic. The guy was literally feeding this to his girlfriend when I got there. So that's the level we're at right? So immediate interdiction is required.

[00:33:52] Yeah, so the fight is on between me and him and he's going for my gun. He's trying to get my gun and I know this is life or death. This is you're fighting for your life here. How do you guys sorry?

[00:34:03] I don't know how you don't have backup and it's like what the fuck it's changed now Sean like because there's been this is this kind of issue has been raised before like how in the hell do you respond to a call like that by yourself

[00:34:17] even in war and I don't know a lot about war but like you're not usually probably sometimes but not usually doing things alone. Well, I have friends that are ex-military and they tell me repeatedly what you

[00:34:30] did was way fucking harder and way more dangerous than we ever did because they would say we knew we were going into a firefight. We had our buddies. We were all armed and ready to shoot to back to this call.

[00:34:43] So I show up police guard get out and I can hear them fighting. I can hear the screaming and yelling and fighting. So there's no time you respond now. There's no time to figure out what the hell and get backed up and no, no, no,

[00:34:59] no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,

[00:35:35] no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Yeah. I knew that he or her would get my sidearm and shoot me. That's how serious this was. So I was fighting or consciousness. My vision was like this, like dark thought through it.

[00:35:51] And I now I have to wrestle her with one arm in him with the other. It's an unbelievable situation. Right. The reason this is kind of relevant, is kind of relevant for a couple reasons. One, I know I suffered a frickin concussion. It was a cast

[00:36:09] iron pot that she wailed me over the back of the head with. And the next day, I had a headache from hell, vomiting, dizziness, the whole frickin concussion thing. No question I had I had a brain injury from that. Right. But secondly, I found out later, she had

[00:36:28] a quite a string of mental health issues that I didn't have time to get into when I was responding to that call. Right? Like I didn't have time to go through the frickin paperwork. As weird as this sounds, computer information was still kind of like it wasn't 100%.

[00:36:45] That's fascinating right now today on your phone, you can click a few buttons and get her history. I don't know if that's always a good thing because you might approach it in a way that but but it's data can be usually good information can be helpful.

[00:36:58] Yeah. So I was exposed to a couple things. And when I found out her history, it was like, oh, man, I would have loved to have known that five minutes before showing up because I would have never taken

[00:37:09] my eye off her. And so the whole point of that is is the the unpredictability of someone going through a mental health crisis. She looked like the most timid while she was beat up, her face was bloodied. Like she looked like the definitive

[00:37:26] victim in a domestic violence situation. And she was screaming, let him go. Let's stop. It's very, very common for people to stay in abusive relationships. Yeah, it just is. So yeah, that happened. That was like in 1999. You said the word unpredictability about not

[00:37:43] knowing or not having yes, the image of that makes me think that like so much of your job. I don't know that how much I don't know some of it's just hanging out in the station. I don't know how cops

[00:37:55] lives really work that well. But I don't for you, your job is is unpredictable. That's what makes it so hard mentally. Right, exactly. So you never know how dangerous this is going to be. Even if it's not dangerous, you're on alert that releases chemicals. You know

[00:38:10] what I mean? Oh, do I know what you mean? Absolutely. I worked in Canada again, the Royal Canadian Mount Police RCMP they do rural policing, which is to say we are the guys that do native reserves. Now I worked on at that time and it was

[00:38:27] around 2000 to 2005. Statistically, it was the most violent detachment posting in the nation. Wow. Which is saying a lot. The reason that it's relevant in terms of our conversation is I had to cut down so many people that hung themselves on

[00:38:49] that reserve that I had. I had to make sure I kept a sharp edge on my knife. I probably cut down 50 people and a lot of those people were under 15. Is that right? Yep. Absolute epidemic. Lift them up

[00:39:03] by one arm and cut the extension cord or the rope or the whatever with the other. I don't know how many times you can do that without that really sunk in to my head. Working on that reserve changed me as a person. Like I talked about being

[00:39:18] empathic before. Flip side of that. Working that reserve, I became robotic. By the end of my tenure there, I could cut down a 14 year old kid and go have a coffee 10 minutes later. It's just it's just another day. There was violence that you see like

[00:39:36] television shows like cops and you know, they used to be on in the 90s and blah blah. I used to watch that show and be like, yeah, all right. Inner City L.A. Yeah, it's pretty violent, but I know violence.

[00:39:48] The reserve could have its own TV channel of razy shit that's going on. And so it changed me as a person when I left there, I had no use at all for humanity. I couldn't care less like if you

[00:40:01] died or like it was I was numb. So I got posted to another small town, rural Saskatchewan prairies of Canada. I was unhinged because I was so used to having to meet violence with violence. And if you

[00:40:17] didn't, it was just so it was a rough road for me in that last that last handful of years. I was getting in quite a bit of shit. I was getting in quite a bit of trouble. And I had to and I told my

[00:40:29] superiors because I remember because you have to go for a biannual medical. And in that medical, they introduced a form. It was like a medic, like a mental health form. And I used to just like chuckle at it. I'm like, you sound stupid. Like,

[00:40:44] are you serious? Really? Like, have you ever felt whatever check the box one to 10? How do you how's your mood today? It's always a fucking one. Like, I got to the end of it. There was like 10 questions on your mental health. And I'm just like, well, of

[00:40:58] course that sucks. Look what I do for a living. And that sucks. Yeah, yeah. humanity and luck check, check, check, check. And the last question, have you ever felt suicidal? I remember the box and thinking, oh, you check yes to that say goodbye to

[00:41:11] your career. But you never were suicidal. I never was suicidal. In my entire service, as a police officer, I was never suicidal. Depression, lots of it. Anxiety near the end of my service, lots of it. And those are the two those are the two that are

[00:41:31] always playing together, right? What does it look like? Or like for you dealing with? It sounds like self diagnosed depression or anxiety? Does that mean you're not sleeping? Does that mean you're in bed all day? No, because I know you're not allowed

[00:41:45] to do that. Is it right? Does that mean that you're fighting drinking doing drugs? Like what does it look like? And how are you coping? It starts again, and I kind of touched on a little bit earlier, like when I left the reserve, my opinion of the human

[00:41:58] race is crazy. That's like it was very these these humans, I don't know. Like they saw my whole mindset was so negatively planted. Oh, it's brutal. It was brutal. Like I just okay, so what did depression look like? My days off lots of days off

[00:42:16] in bed, man. Like I just couldn't get out of bed is like fuck this. Like, oh, I just can't like I just can't like when that started being quite commonplace. My relationship at the time suggested you know, you should maybe see somebody. I was

[00:42:32] like, fuck that. Like I don't need to. What do you mean? See somebody? What am I going to go to some psychologist like fuck whatever? No, no. And so depression for me at that time was, I was super irritable. Don't get me in traffic, man,

[00:42:45] because I'm gonna frickin lose it in bed, hardly sleeping but can't get out of bed. I never had suicidal thoughts. But I had lots of thoughts of I don't want to see people I can't be in crowds.

[00:42:58] Like don't put me in a room full of people. No way. There's no way drinking. That's actually a good point. Like I started drinking when I was working in the reserve. I was single then and I would get

[00:43:09] home after a night shift and I would be like eight in the morning sun's up and like, I can't sleep man. I'm just like I just finished being in a fight like two hours. Like I can't maybe if I take

[00:43:19] a big frickin pull off this vodka bottle, maybe it'll knock me out. Like at this point, anything. OK, into the booze cabinet. Let's try this. I don't need that cap anymore. But I was just like, OK, take a good pull. Like don't just sip. Give that

[00:43:36] a few minutes. Oh, all right. That's taking the edge off. And I feel kind of like a human. Feel pretty reasonable. All right. Go lay down. It's kind of helpful. You know, sure. Shit, I'm doing that the next day. One good pull isn't doing it

[00:43:49] anymore. It's got to be now two. And now I'm staying up half an hour and finishing up a third of a bottle. Like it didn't take long. I think I peaked out at a 26 ounce a day. Really? You know where this ends. Like this is you taking your

[00:44:05] life or or being drunk at work or like this does not end well. Here's my image and not to be like I don't mean to add hyperbole or you know, here's my image. You're this dude. You're alone a lot. You're dealing with all kinds of stuff you're

[00:44:21] seeing and physically involved with and all kinds of stuff at work. You're drinking some. You obviously have a gun that you can. I don't know how it is there. You take your gun with you wherever you go. You don't have to leave it

[00:44:32] somewhere, right? Because I was on call. So you have a gun, maybe more. There's a lot of boxes you're checking there. Yeah, this is when people start to go in a really fucking dangerous path. And some of them I'll never talk to because they

[00:44:45] are dead. Yeah. And if there's a category of people that that applies to, I would without knowing the data, I would be very confident saying top three are cops. Yeah, at least first responders frontline people. But I would actually

[00:45:01] say cops more than them. I think so. I would think so. Because you have a gun. Yeah. And I know firemen don't go into fires alone. That's a huge thing. You start to add it all together. And you're like, excuse me if this is all weird

[00:45:14] or I have he of course cops are going to be killing themselves. There's just too many things that you're dealing with. It's tragic, but it's fucking obviously true. No, dude, if you're weird, I'm weird. Like when I'm talking to you now, I'm

[00:45:29] kind of surprised you're alive. I realized you didn't have these sort of explicit suicidal thoughts until more recently, but I don't know, maybe I'm just putting myself in your shoes knowing I would never be able to handle that people are built a little differently. You did it.

[00:45:42] There was some, let's say fallout from that. You're not the same person. No, not at all. If I had to guess I'm saying that's part of the reason that your relationships were struggling. Not part a huge part like the whole reason why I have a

[00:45:57] whole wake of failed relationships behind me is because what I did for a living, how it affected me, how I responded. You think a partner is going to be cool with you pounding a third of a vodka like no, no. And of course there's great, like

[00:46:12] there's anger issues and like I'm doing shit that is like, can't believe I'm doing. I don't blame any of my ex fricking relationships for leaving. Not one. That kind of thing is kind of a brutal reality check. That you know, I can't imagine anything being more

[00:46:27] of a reality check than that. Yeah. And so I've spent the last 11 years trying to heal from my career. And again, because I think going in, I was more empathic than and sensitive. Like I'm not an A type, you know, cops, they, they, they step

[00:46:44] into an environment, they take charge, they, they're, they're loud. They fricking tell you what to do. They, blah, blah, blah. That's not me. I'm more of a C or a D type. You're more of the second in command, the capo. Great, great at

[00:46:55] taking orders. You're a leader, but you're not necessarily needing to be like the loudest one. No, no, no. You're the enforcer kind of. Exactly. And there was a time where I was in charge and I had six, six guys under me and I

[00:47:09] was in charge of that for a while while we got our new boss and I adapted quite well to that role. Well, the guy that worked under me that I was supervising, he killed himself, drove his fricking car into a concrete barrier. That's a

[00:47:23] fucking interesting way to take yourself. Isn't that, isn't it? And everyone was like, holy shit, really? And I, and I second guessed myself. I don't know how many times, like, could you not see that coming? Could you not see that coming? He was the most pleasantly delightful guy.

[00:47:41] Socially very, um, there was no indication and then he killed himself one day. I supervised him fricking stuck. No indication. I wasn't getting any indication. He would submit reports to me that I would have to review. And this may, I

[00:47:58] don't know if this is relevant or whatever. It seems stupid to me, but I would review his stuff and there was always spelling mistakes. And again, this may sound stupid at first glance, but maybe there's something to this. I would

[00:48:11] correct him and correct them. And I'd be like, you know what, man, there's a spell check on the computer. I remember after about the fifth or sixth time I called him into my office and I'm like, this is unacceptable. You really need to

[00:48:23] pay more attention. And I was kind of like dropping the hammer a bit. It seems like stupid to me now we're talking about spelling mistakes in a written report, like a police report. It's like, it means nothing to me now. Well, it did

[00:48:34] then. And it wasn't long after. And I know it can't be related. I'm sure it's not related, but I don't know where his headspace was. Like when I think about him, like, man, he could have had a thousand things in his personal life on the go

[00:48:47] that I had no concept of. That was kind of a wake up call to me about, okay, in my little world as a supervisor, making sure a police report was properly grammatically correct and the spell that was important in my world. And

[00:49:03] then to have reality slap you in the face so hard. Not that he took a leave. He killed himself. Yeah. It just reminds me that when you're struggling, it affects potentially every single thing in your life. So for some people, yeah. Among other

[00:49:18] things that might be spelling error, lack of attention to detail because the brain isn't fucking functioning that way. It doesn't matter what they try to do. It's like, it's just fascinating to me. The brain is a mysterious thing. And if it's not functioning in a certain

[00:49:30] way, it will not matter what people around them say they should do. No, I don't know. There's plenty of metaphors I can use that are escaping me or analogies. But you know, it's like asking someone to drive. It doesn't know how to drive.

[00:49:41] Do you understand? I can't fucking drive. He was probably thinking, why can't I do this? Yeah, of course there was no fucking indication. If he indicated anything, he might have lost his job. Maybe. Maybe. You pointed out why you didn't

[00:49:54] indicate shit, hard things. So why would it be different? Even though you were in charge then still doesn't matter. Like that's the system you're in, man. Yeah, absolutely. My friend who killed himself, there was very little indication by everyone you talked to years go by, you look

[00:50:10] back maybe a couple years leading up, was he more down? Okay. Yeah, I could see that upon reflection. Yeah. Did he smile a little less? Yeah. But like at the time I'm like, you're just you're working a lot. You're not sleeping that well.

[00:50:26] You're having problems with your girlfriend. Why would you be smiling a lot? Exactly. Yeah. And he worked in a line of work then and there where I don't know if he would have gotten help even if it was available and there was no, you know, potential

[00:50:39] problems associated with it. Everyone go, I mean now it's like almost standard and expected that people have a therapist. It wasn't that way 10 years ago, let alone 2030. And I recognize in myself that, okay, I'm not who I used to be. And this job is negatively impacting my emotional

[00:50:59] health. And I knew that, okay, this whole policing thing, yeah, I got to be done with this. And in the RCMP, you need 20 years in to retire early. Okay, you take a penalty, but I was like, okay, make it to 20. Get out of this line of work, and

[00:51:16] you'll be fine. Absolutely convinced of that. So I make it to 20. I get out and I get another job. I'm in the oil and gas sector in Western Canada, making almost three times the money I ever did as

[00:51:30] a cop. So, hey, I'm out of that line of work. I'm in the heavy construction business now. I'm driving a big rig. Well, wouldn't you know, that's when my freaking symptoms start showing up. PTSD. I don't like having letters attached to

[00:51:46] me and I get it. There's people that feel that, oh, you know, I've been diagnosed this, at least that gives it a name. I totally get that. That's not me. I'm resistant to letters. Job was very difficult. All kinds of things went wrong on the

[00:52:03] job. And I went back to my employer, who I was working for, and I kind of had a mini, well, it wasn't a breakdown. I had a face to face discussion with my supervisor. I said, look, I can't work in the foothills anymore. Can't do it.

[00:52:19] Can't do it. And he said, half of our work is in the foothill. Like, what do you mean? And so we had like an hour and a half long discussion. I thought I got through and I was on days off and I

[00:52:30] was in my truck on the way home and he phones me. Yeah. Okay. I got another job for you. I wasn't even, I was like an hour down the road. And so I'm like, yeah, well it's in the foothills. And I said,

[00:52:40] well, I just told you I can't, I can't. And I was in such a fucked head space. And I had told him in the meeting, I will quit on the spot if you send me West, like in the foothills. It was that

[00:52:51] desperate. I ended up having to quit that job and I ended up having to quit that because my mind's I'm going to throw out a word here. That's a little, some people don't like to ascribe to themselves. It feels a little soft. I am always

[00:53:04] wary of me. It's like, I'm not diagnosing anything that shit that you did it. That is fucking self-care bro. Am I wrong? No, you're not wrong. It just sucks that that self-care was so devastating. I actually thought I was losing my

[00:53:18] mind. Like what was that? So now one of my symptoms and I hate, like I was diagnosed while you're freaking, okay, fine. It was fricking terrifying. And that's one thing that I've really learned and grown. I would say in the last five,

[00:53:32] six, maybe even 10 years is like when I see somebody homeless guy on the corner with, you just don't know what kind of day someone's having a simpler example, whatever you're in line at the bank and someone's being a fricking asshole. Okay.

[00:53:47] Well maybe their kid just fricking died. My tolerance for people having moments in the world is so huge. Now I am so forgiving of people's behaviors. You have no fricking clue what that dude just happened to him. No clue in my younger

[00:54:06] days as a, you know, I'd be like, well, what an asshole, what a jerk, but whatever fill in the blank, not now maybe that's just maturity and it comes with age. It'd be nicer. Yeah. I mean, when you're describing just sounds like straight

[00:54:17] up empathy. Yeah. Cause that has definitely come back to me since I've retired. When I mentioned before how that was vacant after I got off the reserve, how I really lost that. Well, that's come back. Thankfully. In fact, it's come back

[00:54:31] quite strong. Like I'm a softie man. Like I'm walking down the street. You'd guy be like, and he'd be like, can you spare some change, man? I'm not going to buy booze and I'll here's $10. You know what? If I was you, I'd probably buy a

[00:54:45] fricking ball. If I give them money, you're free to do whatever you want with it. Yeah. I'm not here to say only, but you can only buy certain kind of food. Like if what you need is alcohol or drugs, like I'm giving you money to help your

[00:54:58] life out and you get to decide how you want to use it. I don't care if it's legal or not. I don't know. It makes me feel good. I don't know why exactly, but cause I relate to these people

[00:55:08] like as it stands right now, like I don't feel that far removed from these guys. One more fricking shitty strike. And like it's like life is can be very fricking challenging. You're, you're, you're in some ways your safety net is getting a little too thin. You know, like

[00:55:25] currently like I'm drinking too much. I know that like I still, that's my, my go to. Thankfully like when I consume alcohol, it mellows me. Like if anything, when I have a few drinks, my head space goes to, you know what dude, you better not

[00:55:42] get into a confrontation because you're really vulnerable. Right? I'm the opposite of a violent fricking drinker, which is helpful. But I know, I know. It's just like, you know what, you think this is a solution? No, it's very, very temporary. It's very short term. Yeah. In my experience,

[00:55:59] it's kind of hard to have empathy or at least practice it outwardly consistently when you're not getting a lot of sleep, when you're really stressed at your job, when your relationship is compromised, when you, you know, you might have money issue, all those things. Like guess what

[00:56:14] takes a backseat is like me being super forgiving or open. Not always. Some people have, they, they can pull it off, but a lot of people, they need the bandwidth to do that shit. And if you're living a certain life that is not uncommon that

[00:56:27] we work so much that we don't sleep enough, we eat like shit. All this adds up and you're like, of course, this person's going to be a fucking, a present as an asshole. So two ish months ago, your relationship had been done for lack of a

[00:56:43] better word for well over a year at that point. Yeah. What is it? Is there something that you just woke up and it was just too much? Well, I mean, dealing with lawyers is never a pleasant thing. Uh, yeah. November of 2022. Yeah. My wife

[00:56:59] made some allegations. I walked into my lawyer's office and this is like, again, that's never a pleasant experience and certainly always super expensive. She said, what happened last December? Nothing happened. Well, what do you mean? We'll take a listen to this. And she played me a

[00:57:14] message that my wife's lawyer sent to my lawyer and it was the most, oh, my jaw hit the freaking floor, man. It was like the most accusatory. I don't know exactly what happened. It was like the most acute shit. I was accused of such things and

[00:57:30] my lawyers looked at me and said, so like, is there any like substance to this? Is there, I don't know where this is coming from. I don't know what happened here, but I'm not that guy. And she goes, well, okay, we'll, we can work with

[00:57:43] that. But my advice to you is absolutely no contact. And what is so strange about that or one of the things is a month prior to that, my wife and I went for lunch to discuss our divorce and we were amicable. We actually had a few laughs.

[00:58:01] I guess we were agreeing to disagree. We were agreeing to part ways. And that was just a month prior. And that incident in my lawyer's office did something to me. Yeah. Like it messed with my head. I left that meeting sick in, in kind of a

[00:58:15] suspended reality of like, what the fuck is my world now? Now I'm a wife beater too much. Do you think that came from your wife or her lawyers? You know where I think it came from is my wife's psychologist. When she started seeing her own

[00:58:33] psychologist and I don't know if it's the culture you and I are mid age white dudes were evil by fricking default in the world, probably preaching to the choir in this day and age. There's something about being mid aged and white male

[00:58:48] that we're the source of everything that's wrong in the world. I think the psychologist that my wife was seeing was has slanted her in that direction. I honestly believe that it was leading her down a path that was just like, you know what?

[00:59:02] Your husband's a male, your husband's mid age, your husband's white. Of course he's evil. Like I'm using abuse. Anyway, man, it's just like things have gotten progressively worse for me ever since. Okay. In terms of my mental health,

[00:59:18] my ability to sleep is huge. If I get an hour a night, that's a pretty good night. It's so interesting. I can never have a conversation like you're having if I got such little sleep, my body won't allow it. My brain won't, it won't

[00:59:29] work. I'm telling you, man, it's, I was wondering if I was even going to be able to do this today. How many people know that we're talking about zero? Do you, as we speak, want to be alive? Yes. As we speak, I want to desperately, I don't

[00:59:47] want to end it, man. Again, like coming back to what we started talking about, I'm starting to both think about like this whole, like, I don't know, maybe, maybe, you know, you got 54 good years in, that's not bad. Like it's, I just don't

[01:00:00] have the energy for it. Like the whole thought of rebuilding a life literally from scratch is just like, what, when's your birthday? July. So you're coming up on 55. Yep. And to answer that question, I'm going to make that day. Oh, you've

[01:00:15] listened to the podcast. Of course I have, man. I wouldn't connect with you if I hadn't listened. Right. I know. I hear you, man. But if you were to bump that up to 60, now I'm starting to like, yeah, 50, 50 chance maybe like if things continue

[01:00:31] like, you know, like that's a different, that's a different answer. Really it is like, right. So, you know, if you've listened to some more recent podcasts, ask this question about the pink and purple pill. Yeah. The safe way. And it's a

[01:00:43] painless way to go. Like I'm almost sure given what you shared, you ain't taking that. Not right now. No. But would you store it somewhere maybe next to your gun or somewhere? Yeah. You wouldn't need your gun in that case, but you'd have to.

[01:00:55] Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Do you keep your gun loaded? No, I used to. Yeah. When I lived out in the rural, I used to live in the rural, in the country. I'm a strong believer in that we're all responsible for our own security. Very, very

[01:01:11] capable of that. I was never, I shouldn't say concerned, but I always knew I could confront someone invading my space. It wasn't because of any kind of self-harm thing. It was like, Hey, I'm ready to freaking jump into action here. If

[01:01:25] like if someone kicks my door in, they're not going to have a good day. That's why the answer to that question is that that's not the case anymore. Cause I live in town now, like it's just not the same environment. Did you ever seek

[01:01:37] medical help? Therapy counseling? Yeah, actually quite a bit. Okay. When did that start? Cause I know for a while that wasn't your jam. 2003. Okay. So it's been a minute. Okay. I had mentioned a partner I was with that said, Hey,

[01:01:51] you know what you might need? Well, that's, I took, I took her up on that and I said, okay, okay. You know, I'm going to give this a whirl. That's when I started seeing a psychologist and my family doctor quite regularly. That's when I

[01:02:01] was prescribed meds. That's when I was diagnosed PTSD, which again, all of this came like rushing to me very quickly. I'm like, wait a minute, wait a minute. Meds now. And like diagnosis, like, Whoa, like I was really trying

[01:02:17] to put the brakes on the whole, it seemed to really happen quickly. But then I started like, well, you know, maybe there may be, maybe, maybe there's something to it. So I agreed, like I took the meds and I've been on, Oh man, I think I

[01:02:32] 2003 to probably 12 solid years of meds and probably four different kinds. So it's not like I didn't give that an honest, you know, to try and deal mainly with the depression thing, because that, that remains in my life. Like I think that's just now part of my makeup. Now

[01:02:50] it's kind of a side effect of my work, but it might be a little bit of disposition there and genetically, you know, my mom's kind of a bit of a neurotic person. So maybe there's some spill over there, but, but I'm not on anything anymore.

[01:03:04] Like I quit that stuff because I was finding while I wasn't getting any benefit in the side effects were terrible. Limp dick. Oh, that was so demoralizing. Can't even jerk off. No people might fricking chocolate that as a joke. That's no fucking joke. No, not at all.

[01:03:21] Actually. Cause my, my wife, she was, she's a very sexual person. She likes that. She wants, she needs that. And here I am like, fuck, you want to talk about knocking the fricking legs out from underneath the gamasculation man? Yeah. Big time.

[01:03:36] I have wondered if that played a role in our relate. Like I, I like to think no, but maybe, you know, like not saying it's not out of that realm. That was a big side effect. I had other side effects, but that one was really serious.

[01:03:51] I'm kind of old school. I'm pretty sure in terms of like, I'm a big believer in that as the male I'm responsible for fricking security. My wife, like that's my job. Right. Making sure that my family is safe. Hey, they eat one job to, you know, financial

[01:04:08] providing, being on provider is huge and sexually like, that's part of my role as a male. Again, I, you know, I emphasize that like, this is no joke. Like, so I, yeah. So that was a major player in one. I'm like, you know what?

[01:04:22] I'm going off these things, you know, it's too little, too late then. And I feel like being off those meds is the right choice for me. You know, again, I tried a number of different kinds and that's never a fun road as, as I'm

[01:04:36] sure many of your listeners will agree to. It's like, really that's such throwing darts at a fricking board, right? Like, Oh, try this. Yeah. Take six weeks to feel anything, but then try it for six months and come back to me. Fuck really? I'm on the edge here.

[01:04:50] I don't got six. You know, you go and see a psychiatrist or a doctor or whatever that prescribed you. And it just seems like, you know, you're so flippant with that. You have no idea what that, what you just said, what that means in my life.

[01:05:03] This is a weird connection of making, but it's almost like how you were with over time with the suicides, like it's just another suicide. Yeah. And I can imagine what goes through their heads. Like, I got my own problems. Like kill yourself.

[01:05:16] I had those thoughts on the job as a younger op that responded to calls. Be like, really? Yeah. Like, come on. Like either do it or don't like, fuck. I got other shit to go. You like, I got people fighting next.

[01:05:30] Like I can't deal with the ugly reality. If I asked you at 20, 30, 40, even 50, you'd be having a conversation with somebody on zoom about edging close to suicide. Would you have thought, would you have been like, what would you have said? No. I wouldn't talk.

[01:05:50] Would you think that at an early age, you would ever be suicidal or close to it? I'm wavering a bit. I had many times when I was working where I thought, you know what? If you get killed on the job, eh, not so tragic.

[01:06:04] I had those thoughts more than once. I don't know what that's called, but that's the thing. I don't know what that's called either, but it's just like, how many people know what you're going through? Exactly what I'm going through. Probably none.

[01:06:17] I've got two close friends that are like, oh yeah, no, that doesn't surprise me at all. Like, so I would say I've got two one's ex military. He and I talk about shit. That's like, so real. It's ridiculous. You know, he's, he's got similar things going

[01:06:31] on in his world too. So, but not many, not many men. Like I don't like sharing this stuff to my friends and my family. It's just, I don't want to be that guy. I don't want to bring this stuff into my,

[01:06:43] and then what are they going to do with it? What are they going to do with it? Exactly. What worry at best or do nothing at worst? Like what, come on. Nobody needs that. Like, even if you were like, you know what I

[01:06:54] am actually thinking about fucking going into the woods with my gun, you would share that with one or two of them. Yeah, I actually would, which is saying quite a lot actually, because that's something that's like all of a sudden their world just changed. Right.

[01:07:08] I think actually what would happen in my particular cases, I would go to them long before I got to the whole, well, that's it. Where's the fricking ammo for the gun? I would be closer to that conversation way before then.

[01:07:23] Are you at a point or have you been where you think about method or is it a given that it's a gun? I've, I've given it some thought. Yeah. It'll be a firearm. Like I'm not going to be a survivor.

[01:07:33] I'm not going to be, oh, I survived an attempt. No, like I know how to do like, I know how to make this happen. I know how to be a success at this. Like I've seen lots. Yeah. There won't be any story about some attempt that didn't happen.

[01:07:48] Does anything help you feel better right now? It's pretty dark, Sean, to be honest with you, I would say if anything, I do dab, like I am a somewhat of a guitar player and picking that up and just kind of picking it

[01:08:01] and listening, like not any song in particular, but just running through the physical motion of it and listening to it can be helpful. You know, I'm certainly no wizard on the thing, but I, you know, I do know my route way around it somewhat.

[01:08:14] So that's quite soothing is the word I'm going to kind of bring listening to your podcast has been when I listen to the stories, what I'm trying to get out of them again, and I touched on this originally is like, I'm very, very, it's, I find it helpful

[01:08:29] when my curiosity is peaked because it kind of takes my brain in a different direction rather than like thinking of all my shit. I'm like, oh, what's that person world like? And so it kind of pulls me off into a little different direction. So I like that.

[01:08:44] I like, you know, again, the diversity of your, of your listenership and your guests that you'd like that too. It was like, well, what's some girl from Mexico going through? Well, that might be interesting. I have no idea what it's like to be a

[01:08:56] Mexican and you know, I liked that. Anything else help? I like getting out for walks when it's nice out, I used to be very active physically and stuff, not so much anymore, but I have to be in the right kind of headspace for it.

[01:09:13] Like it's not always helpful. Sometimes I'll go for a walk and I'm in my head too much. Damn it. I don't like that. Like, and that's when I'll tend to listen to a podcast or music or something, but so it's pretty basic stuff.

[01:09:25] It's nothing groundbreaking and I'm sure it's something that's repeated a lot in your listenerships. Are there anything about, and this could really be about anything you want, but in my mind, I go towards middle-aged man. Maybe it relates to your line of work that

[01:09:41] you were in thinking about even a little bit about taking yourself out. Any of those things where you're like, that's bullshit. I hear this and it's just not true. I think, and this one's repeated a lot in your guests, but I guess I'm going to repeat

[01:09:55] it again is the whole concept of like, if you even think of this kind of thing, you're you're like a coward. And I'm like, wait a minute, wait a minute. To me, it takes a lot of courage to like reflect on what this is all about.

[01:10:09] And so many people are so considerate of their friends and family to the point where they won't, you know, they've hesitated. Yeah. That's a, that's a chicken shits way out. That's a cut. I'm like, I don't know if you ever had a

[01:10:20] gun in your mouth, never fricking had the finger on a trigger of a gun. Like you think that's easy? I don't know. I think you have to be so like in such a desperate state that like, it's certainly not cowardly. I don't get that.

[01:10:35] Maybe I'm thinking more like my demographic. Like again, I've been around a few years. It's just like, you know, I've lived life taking a few hits and bumps and bruises along the way. Like if my mindset's kind of going down that path, I don't, that doesn't strike me

[01:10:48] as cowardly when you were half your age, let's say in your, I don't know, whatever that number is. So when he's, did you think it was currently would you have used that word? I don't think so. Obviously I'm hesitating. I'm not a hundred percent on that.

[01:11:00] When I think of what I was like at 26, 27. And again, I'm reflecting on as how responding to suicide calls. I always remember thinking, man, that person must've been pushed literally over the edge. Like I never thought, oh man, really? Like that was a chicken.

[01:11:18] Like I was always, that must've been a rough fricking existence for someone to do that. I always thought that on the job when I was younger in my twenties, that was when I responded to Sue's calls of Suess. I would, that was where my head was like,

[01:11:34] wow, that's, that's drastic, man. That is over the edge stuff. Yeah. Sure. As final. You just said something about, have you ever had a gun in your mouth? Did you, have you ever had a gun in your mouth? No. And I don't say that with any kind of

[01:11:47] pride or like that I'm better than anybody. That's just the reality. I haven't, but yeah. The thing that fucking flips me out about guns, it's so fast. Just to be clear, and you know, this is just, I'm not like encouraging anything. I'm just wondering from where you're sitting

[01:12:02] right now on your night sun porch thing. Yeah. How long would it take you to go inside, load your gun, pull the trigger and kill yourself? I could have it done in a minute less. Done. That's what's like flips me out. It's like.

[01:12:14] And this whole room would be filled with my fricking debris. I know you've been out of the force for a while and you've even distanced yourself from that work. There might be some police officers or other law enforcement first responders listening.

[01:12:28] Do you have anything to say to them? Yeah, I do. Actually. I never paid any attention to my mental health in my career. Not one bit. My physical health was fricking top shelf. I was training weight training, running, cycling. You know, I was in peak physical condition,

[01:12:46] mental health. I never gave it one second thought. And yet that's the thing that fricking, well, I deal with it today. To reach out and speak to anyone in emergency services, I'm just like guys, gals pay some attention to this stuff. What's your brain doing?

[01:13:03] How are you sleeping? Are you irritable? Like, are you reacting out of the norm for you? If you are pay attention to it, you know, like everyone's going to be different in how to deal with this. Like catchphrases. And I've heard it on your podcast too.

[01:13:19] It's just like, oh, just reach out and talk to people. Well, yeah. There's very few people that you can, but maybe you can find one or two in your world that you can sit down and be like, Hey, you know what, Bob? I've been feeling like this.

[01:13:33] Like how, how have you been? Like, how are you handling all these suicides we go to and cutting kids down from rafters? Like, how, how, how are you doing with that? Well, actually I'm maybe drinking like, you know, then these conversations can start maybe like that.

[01:13:48] I was hesitant to come on your podcast. Like I was just like, well, I don't know. Like, then I thought, well, wait a minute. Like, like I said, right from out of the gate, like emergency services, people are underrepresented on your podcast. Like they're out there.

[01:14:05] I know they're out there. I worked with two that fricking took themselves out and that's just me in small, in rural Canada. Like I can't imagine New York city. I would just hope that these people in emergency services can recognize some

[01:14:21] symptoms, maybe a little earlier than I did. And you know, and just kind of some recognition that like when you start losing sleep, that's a big one, but it's not forever. You know, just your personality is changing a little bit. It's like, okay, what's going on here?

[01:14:36] How do I get this back in check? Like that, that would be my message is to don't dismiss that stuff so quick. And I'm not saying go and see a psychologist, but I am saying try and have discussions around that, whether they're beer talks at

[01:14:52] the bar with your buddies where you just kind of kick it around a bit. And I've seen that happen more and more. That's a conversation that's not as taboo as it used to. Like, I honestly think you can open that up

[01:15:03] fairly well, like how he just says, like, you know, you know, Ed, like I went through a suicide the other day and it really bothered me. Like I lost sleep over that the other night because it just like the girl was the same

[01:15:14] age as my daughter and I just can't get it out of my head. Like next thing you know, that kicks off a pretty valuable conversation. It doesn't have to be so therapeutic or risk of your career. It can be some pretty casual talk over a

[01:15:28] beer or watching the ball game or whatever. That's an approach that I would take if I was doing my career over again is I would gently suggest these kinds of things, feel the water out a bit. Like if your colleague says, I don't know

[01:15:42] what the fuck you're talking about. I'd never have, okay, well maybe try a different colleague or pretty much guarantee that, that if you were to say, you know, I went to a, I went to a freaking accident scene last week and here's what happened in

[01:15:55] this, when this happened with this tire and it's really bothered me. Like I can't get it out of my head. Has anything like that happened to you? Or, and I can pretty much guarantee that it'd be like, geez, the other week

[01:16:06] I was at a thing and the thing happened and I can't get it out of my head. I think those conversations need to happen. And I think that they're easier now than they've ever been. Again, I'm not emphasizing, Hey, go to

[01:16:17] your boss and tell him you're crying on the side of the highway, not saying that be aware of these, these little signs that show up early because they start like this and then it's like, work at the end of their life, freaking monsters after 20 years. Exactly.

[01:16:33] I'm emphasizing emergency services because especially with what we've been under in the, since COVID and all that crazy shit, I'm glad I wasn't a cop during COVID, glad I wasn't an ambulance fricking an EMT during COVID or those guys like that's pretty fricking rugged

[01:16:49] territory, the mental health wise. Like, wow. I know it's not gotten any easier. I know that for guaranteed. If somebody is listening to this, then they already know that the word suicide is in the name and probably know what it's about, but it's worth saying, cause

[01:17:03] you don't know who's listening, even if suicides not on your radar and let's even make pretend it never will be. We can't have that kind of crystal ball. If you don't deal with this stuff, chances are you're just, your life is going to be shitty. Yeah.

[01:17:17] Like even if you're never contemplating, so even the idea of that is foreign and stays that way, your life will be worse, just leave it at that. Oh, completely. Absolutely. There's no question about it. You know, again, if you'd have told me

[01:17:30] 20 years ago, I would have been staring in a mirror at two 30 in the morning. Contemplating. You just don't know where these things are going to come up. Right? Like, like I don't put myself in the same category as a lot of your callers.

[01:17:43] A lot of your guests have been in. I'm I don't put myself there. However, again, like I emphasize like I'm starting to like question it once in a while. Like it's starting to kind of like creep into the mindset a little bit. That's pretty serious.

[01:17:58] So there's different degrees, I guess. Like the spectrum can be everything from holy shit. I can't wait to fricking die today to you know, I'm like wondering now I'm kind of like, you know, so there's lots of variability in there. You know, struggle is struggle. You're in it.

[01:18:15] Yeah. Just having this chit chat with you today, is this been like, ah, I don't know, it's, it takes a bit of a bit of stress off me actually. I feel less under the thumb of life now than I did a few hours ago. That's pretty damn good.

[01:18:30] You know, you're like sitting down and whatever, whatever sparks you. Like, so this is it. This is, this is the life. This is it. And you, you know, doesn't always sit so well, does it going to get better? Maybe worse. We're getting older. You know, your body's

[01:18:45] going to keep hurting, bro. That shit's starting to play into things too. Now I remember that old football injury. Oh, being in chronic pain. That's depressing, man. Yeah. Like it can knock the wind out of you big time, like chronic pain is like, oh, what's the point.

[01:19:04] And like, this is going to get any easier. Oh, it'll be better when I'm 65. You're really, I mean, I don't know. Yeah. Right. But you're decaying. You were dying, which is the irony of the podcast and we're dying anyway. God forbid you should do it sooner

[01:19:17] than you're supposed to do it. What's supposed to like a natural death. Okay. Yeah. I get, I get it, but I like that. I like that. You're dying anyway. Like you're dying. Like, like in a thousand years, is it going to matter? Like in a hundred years and 50.

[01:19:34] Like I said, I'll repeat myself, but I think what you're doing, I think your format and your approach and everything you're doing about it, I think it's freaking spot on, man. Thank you. Like, like really, really? I wouldn't be freaking, we wouldn't have had a multiple hour conversation.

[01:19:50] If it, if I thought you were full of shit, like so much of the other garbage out there, I'd be like, fuck this. Well, I appreciate that, man. Keep listening. If it serves you in any way. Yeah. Do you think you'll listen to your episode?

[01:20:01] You know, I probably will. That's more curiosity about, I wonder what made it, what, what hit the cutting room or we got a problem here, what the hell is my fricking book? Memoir title. You did not tell me my memoir title throughout this whole thing.

[01:20:17] No one's ever called me on it. I appreciate that. You can hold that thought for a bit, but I do expect to hear it somewhere. Um, before we leave, do you have an idea of what it is? Admittedly, you don't have my gift,

[01:20:28] but with your life, I don't have anything off the top of my head. Other than the messed up Mountie. I just had a thought come to me. Like I've listened to obviously a number of your guests and some of the fricking horror stories, man, their

[01:20:42] interactions with emergency services, police, it fricking hurts. I've, I've had to be that guy. I treated a particular person who was under, you know, obviously going through a massive mental health issue. My job as the police was to get them to the hospital.

[01:21:02] I'm basically just a glorified taxi at this point. So this, so I get this, this lady, she'd be whatever in her mid thirties and she was very calm and agreeable. I, you know, you're going through it. And I was trying to be as fricking delicate as possible.

[01:21:17] It was a rough time. And what do you see? You know what he said? Just give you a lift down. You know, it's, I know it's terrible and everything. What do you do? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And I was saying, well, policy, policy and fricking police. Policy.

[01:21:30] There's no coincidence that those words are very similar. Every person that is a mental health, call it risk or, or contact. They are to be handcuffed. I never agreed with it. Had my issue with that. This particular lady, I was just like, you know what?

[01:21:48] I'm going outside of policy on this one. You just have yourself a seat in the back of this car and the boss isn't here. He doesn't need to see. Well, I get halfway to the hospital, man. And I look back and you know, the

[01:22:01] divider, I look back it's covered in blood, so I get the car stopped while she had fricking slashed herself. And she was laying on the back seat, essentially bleeding out in the back of my car. So now my situation has changed dramatically. I'm like code, like light

[01:22:21] siren now to the hospital. Like, like this person has minutes and I get her there and I do my thing. Turn her over to the emergency people and I'm covered in blood backseat of my car is covered in blood. And now I have to explain to my

[01:22:37] bosses what happened. And when I bring up, well, what, how did she manage to do that? Was she handcuffed? And I'm like, well, no, she wasn't. And I'm telling you the grilling that I got, I was just like, you know, I use judgment on that particular call.

[01:22:54] And it wow. Wow. And so I've heard guests talk about stories about, oh my God, how they were treated. And I'm just like, oh, that's just sucks so bad. It was, she was so agreeable and so docile. And so like, I was just like, she's not a threat.

[01:23:11] She's not a threat at all. I'm not. And so fast. I literally was driving down the road in like, dude, I'm always looking back. And it was like a matter of seconds, man. Do you know why she was agreeable? Because she knew she was going to

[01:23:25] like, that's it. I'm out. One thing I've learned is I think, and again, this is just for my guests. I don't necessarily a sample of all people are actually rather calm when they are approaching their own death this way, when they're actually trying, not always. Yeah.

[01:23:41] And I don't know what you're feeling when you're jumping off a bridge, right? That goes against what people often say. They're not always hysterical. They're not always out of their minds. Sometimes they are not to this is I'm digressing here a little bit because

[01:23:56] there's a guy who makes a lot of fucking money talking about suicide prevention. He's the guy you might've heard of him. He jumped off the golden gate bridge and he lived. Sure. He's a really nice guy. I'm sure he means every word he says.

[01:24:08] He said the moment he jumped off, he regretted it. The thing about it is his message is main messages. I felt that way. You're going to feel that way. Well, guess what? That is when I started asking the question on my podcast. Do you regret it?

[01:24:21] Do you wish you that had worked? Yes. Right. And you know what I found at least from what people are telling me and that's all I've got to go by. Not a small number. Wish it had worked. Not a small number are planning their death.

[01:24:33] I think more and more people are searching for authenticity. We're starting to get tired of the glossy and the bikini chick babes and the fucking bullshit that's on YouTube. And I think it's starting to come back a little bit. It's pulling back a bit.

[01:24:49] People are like, and that's why when I mentioned earlier, you know, we're starting to like, I think there's more interest in, in, in long, uh, long form conversation and real talk about real stuff because things have gotten so stupidly fricking fake in the last.

[01:25:06] Five, 10 years when I retired, at least my takeaway is like, I, I can honestly look at myself in the mirror and say, okay, did you treat people fricking fairly and with respect? It's a yes. With a few glitches. I'm like, well, okay. You're a fricking human too.

[01:25:24] You fucked up a few times, but for the greater majority of my time serving the public in a police position, yeah, I was pretty good to people. So that's my takeaway in spite of what it did to me psychologically. I never, you know, that wasn't

[01:25:40] projected out into so that, and thank God for that because I would hate to be sitting here right now thinking, man, you were a fucking dick. I like that would really bother. So at least today I can say, no tough job. You did, you did pretty good.

[01:25:54] You did, you know, you did 91% pretty awesome and a few percent not so good. My fricking psychological shit didn't start happening until I retired. So don't think for a second that, Oh, once I'm out of this line of work, my life is fricking good.

[01:26:09] And it's quite common that that happens. So just a little heads up, right? Like take care of that fricking gray matter, whatever that means to you. Pay attention to the symptoms and the signs, because you know, that's a heads up that I'd like to put out there. Life.

[01:26:26] Fuck. I mean, it's cliche, but we do the best we can, or I think we do. No, exactly. You know, some people's best may not look very good, but it is their best. All right, my friend, thank you very much for this very interesting

[01:26:40] conversation, which didn't feel long. But now that I'm looking at my clock, I'm like, damn. This, yeah, this was really, uh, I really enjoyed, uh, the back and forth that we had today, Sean. I appreciate your time on that. I know it's gonna, you know, you got a

[01:26:53] little bit of work ahead of you here, but I'm good. Don't sweat it. We're good. I appreciate the time. If nothing else, I hope you've somehow managed to get better sleep, and I know that's an ongoing chronic dude. It's priority one on my list.

[01:27:05] Um, I just, again, I just, I really appreciate, uh, you know, you responded to me very quickly, fricking awesome dude to sit down and have a conversation with, and I get that not just from this interaction, but from your other guests. Keep up, keep doing what you're doing.

[01:27:20] It's been a real pleasure, Sean. I appreciate your time. Likewise. Likewise. Take care. Take care. As always, thanks so much for listening and all of your support and special thanks to M up in New Brunswick. Thank you M. If you are a suicide attempt survivor

[01:27:35] and you'd like to talk, please reach out. Hello at suicidenoted.com on Facebook or X at suicide noted, check the show notes to learn more about the podcast, including our membership, but however you are involved or participate. Thank you. That is all for episode number two to

[01:27:54] one, stay strong, do the best you can. I'll talk to you soon.