Jim in Illinois

[00:00:00] Life kind of sucks and being a teenager sucks, but maybe it'll get better. They never said it will get better. Just hearing the word maybe, suddenly I went, oh, I might still be struggling with dark thoughts and ideation, but now I don't feel like actively trying again.

[00:00:41] Hey there, my name is Sean and this is Suicide Noted. On this podcast, I talk with suicide attempt survivors so that we can hear their stories. Every year around the world, millions of people try to take their own lives and we almost never talk about it. And when we do talk about it, many of us, we're just not very good at it. In fact, a lot of us suck at it. So one of my goals with this podcast is to have more conversations and hopefully better conversations with attempt survivors in large part to help more people in more places hopefully feel a little less shitty and a little less alone.

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[00:02:35] But I do hope you listen because there's so much to learn. Today, I am talking with Jim. Jim lives in Illinois and he is a suicide attempt survivor. Hey, Jim in Illinois. What's that? What do you got there? Is that a microphone? That's a good microphone. Oh, I have a little sure microphone because I like to podcast about movies. That's for sure. You got a podcast. What's the name of your podcast?

[00:03:01] Director's Club. I just basically like ramble on about filmmakers and directors and stuff like that because I'm a total movie nerd. And I see some musical instruments behind you. Yeah, I'm a musician. That's like my main therapy in life. Very cool. I appreciate you being here and talking with me. I really love what you're doing and breaking the stigma is something we hear a lot of. It's almost become a cliche, but at the same time, I'm like, no, these conversations need to happen.

[00:03:27] People are struggling now more than ever, especially with how things are in this country. It's kind of like, I think we have to address this more and more. And, you know, instead of like sweeping it under the rug and escaping it. Now, we found each other through someone I spoke to on this podcast last year, I think, Sharon in Illinois. Are you guys friends? How do you know each other? We are together.

[00:03:53] I think what brought us together is our struggles. We felt less alone, like saying the scary stuff. Certainly, she is also huge into film and started the Mental Film This Film Festival, where all the films that she programs are all about mental health. I am so incredibly proud of her for doing that. It's a lot of work. I think that's the hard part, too, is like time management, especially like when you have a lot of interests and passions and hobbies.

[00:04:22] And it's like you also have to pay the bills and you also have to maintain relationships. I know I can't make money as a podcaster or like as a musician, even. I mean, I know you can maybe just go all out with a day job, focus entirely on your passions, but it's not always realistic. Truth. Well, thanks again for joining me here, man. Oh, it's an honor. I'm glad to be here, really.

[00:04:47] I mean, you know, I think it's hard, too, sometimes because as I'm going through currently an intensive outpatient program to address a lot of the things that I feel like I've been avoiding, it's a little exhausting to spend five hours just focusing on mental health and just focusing on the dark stuff. Because, you know, my instinct normally is like I need a nap. I can't just do this all day long, right?

[00:05:16] I mean, it's hard. And the expectations are Monday through Friday from like nine to three. This is all you do. And you sometimes do it in groups, too, which is challenging. But, you know, you feel less alone. You certainly do. But I mean, just some of the topics that come up are challenging to just face on a regular basis, because most of the time we probably space it out.

[00:05:41] Like when we're dealing with with difficult stuff, like we will take a day off or we'll binge on a show or hang out with friends and do all that stuff. But to me, like it feels like college for mental health. It's like they give you homework. They give you worksheets. They give you things to think about. It's intense. And I think it's hard for me to just like, OK, let's just do this all the time. And mostly just this.

[00:06:07] I'm grateful that I'm doing it because things are coming up now that I'm realizing like, oh, I probably watch too many movies in order to not think about these things. You know, I mean, and like it's a healthy coping strategy. It's not it's, you know, better than shooting heroin. Yeah, you're right. Better than shooting heroin.

[00:06:27] That's one thing I hear a lot is like, oh, it's there are far worse things to rely on for for coping than like, you know, binging on Netflix. I still I still think of it as like I'm not being mobile or I'm just kind of like vegging out to an extreme degree sometimes that a part of me does feel a little guilt for doing that to an extreme. But I also go this is kind of what I've been doing since my suicide attempt, really.

[00:06:56] Like and this is going all the way back to when I was a teenager. If you want to start at the beginning before we do that, how old are you, Jim? I am 45. Oh, you look young. And of course, we both have this thing in common in that we do not have hair. These are choices we make choices. And you're in Chicago. What part of Chicago do you live in? Near the lake, thankfully. So that's another way to like deal with dark thoughts. It's just like go for a walk, go to the lake.

[00:07:25] This time of year, again, like we think of things like seasonal affective disorder. And that's certainly like, oh, no, I'm not getting enough vitamin D. Oh, no, the sun's not out as much. And I can already tell that's affecting not just myself, but people around me. It's holidays on top of that. Oh, the damn holidays. So let's jump in. How many suicide attempts do you have? One attempt. I was 13 years old. It was a culmination of things. My parents were on the verge of divorce. Didn't actually happen, but it was very, very close.

[00:07:54] Physical health wasn't so great. I was getting a lot of stomach aches and migraines. Again, like I now, in hindsight, reframe it as like, oh, it's probably a little psychosomatic. It's probably unaddressed anxiety and depression manifesting through physical health issues. And of course, this is at a time when I think most people would agree junior high school is the worst. I was being bullied fairly regularly for being overweight. You know, other things.

[00:08:22] It was just like, oh, I'm a little quieter and more introverted and just not like the life of the party and things like that sort of all got to me in terms of I'm not like everybody else here. Or at least I'm not connecting or I had a couple of friends, but not necessarily like I didn't feel as socially adept. I felt like I was struggling with even just like, oh, I really want to talk to this person, but I can't. And I was holding back a lot.

[00:08:47] You know, unaddressed things that I realized in hindsight, especially recently, like a friend of mine who I really trusted at the time, you know, assaulted me. And that was something that I almost completely blocked out. Like, that's something that I never thought like, oh, I usually can distinctly remember dark, devastating things happening because they're ingrained. And but that's something like, oh, I didn't really like see it as that.

[00:09:16] And plus, it's at a time when you're like, I guess, experimenting and thinking about like, well, what was that or what happened? And then I know recently somebody like, you know, Kevin Smith sort of came out and talked about like, oh, this is something that I'd never thought about. And while in therapy, he mentioned something similar happened. And then that's kind of what's happened to me recently. So that's another reason why I thought I really have to address this.

[00:09:42] But so I mostly blocked that out completely until decades later. Tell me about that day. It was really just one night. And I can't even think like outside of, oh, my parents probably had an argument. I was just feeling overwhelmed. And certainly I didn't want to go to didn't want to go to school anymore. And I just kind of thought, why not just not exist? That was the thought that I had in my head. It was not something like I sat down and thought, oh, how should I do this?

[00:10:10] I just thought, why not take about 30 pills that my mom had her medicine cabinet? I'm pretty sure that might have been an SSRI that she was on and just not taking. To this day, I still don't know if she ever follows up with taking pills and doctor's orders and things like that. But anyway, I took 30 pills. But the strange thing that happened, instead of falling into a deep sleep like I wanted, I started to hallucinate.

[00:10:37] Like it was more of a hallucinogenic trip of some kind because I started seeing things in my room like posters on my wall were coming to life. You know, I was kind of laughing at times because I'm like, oh, the Kurt Cobain poster on my wall is talking to me. That's strange. Like I had that thought in my head as this was all happening. You know, but there were some scary things. There was like bugs crawling on the floor and I was like, ugh. But the weirdest thing I remember, I've always been a musician for way back.

[00:11:06] And that's probably the time I actually started becoming one. But there was a microphone on top of my stereo and the lights were out and I was looking at the microphone and I was like, oh, my microphone, it turned into a lobster. That was weird. And I actually woke up my dad and told him, dad, there's a lobster on my stereo. And of course, like he was worried that this was happening, but he thought, oh, he's probably like half awake, half asleep, maybe having nightmares.

[00:11:36] Maybe he's, you know, fluish or sick or whatever. So he slept on the floor in my room. But I did not tell my parents at all what I had did. I just kind of let the hallucinations happen without like saying, dad, there's more things happening or there's, you know, I just kind of like that was the only thing I remember actively saying out loud to my dad. And then later that night, after all this happened, I went to the bathroom and threw up and told my parents, hey, I have the flu.

[00:12:05] You know, that's that's that's why I'm throwing up. That's probably why I saw a lobster on my stereo. You know, I you know, I was just kind of like trying to rationalize it and make them feel less scared. But my dad never he actually passed away fairly young at the age of 52 from cancer. And he never knew. He never knew I did that. But my mom, on the other hand, she knows. And I I don't even remember how the conversation came up, but I told her over dinner once when we went to Red Lobster. So hold up.

[00:12:34] You saw a lobster and now you're at Red Lobster. Coincidence? It was just like I mean, you would think like that's probably not the most appropriate time or place, but it sort of just came up. And I kind of was just being honest with her about how dark and depressed I was back then. And her reaction was definitely kind of shock and certainly sadness. But it's something that I think that she's never really like acknowledged or kind of dealt with in any way. It was more just like you did that.

[00:13:04] Oh, God. And that was it kind of downplaying it, because I mean, that's a scary thought for any parent to think about. So I sort of acknowledge that. But, you know, it was a very long time that I actually, you know, sought out medications and treatment and therapists and things like that. I mean, that's we're probably going into my, you know, like 10 years later after that happened in my mid 20s, because that's when my dad passed away. So do you know what kind of medication you actually took that night?

[00:13:33] I don't know. That's hard to say for sure. I don't have a clear memory outside of I know or I'm pretty sure she was on Prozac. Again, not clear specifically what it could have been. Right. OK. And during this time, are you regularly ideating? Are you thinking about it? What's that like? I'm pretty sure like throughout that time, depression was just something I struggled with and didn't have a name for. You know, I've certainly had thoughts. What if I didn't exist? What if I didn't have to go through this?

[00:14:03] What if I, you know, a lot of what ifs were coming into my mind a lot around that time. But I also, you know, have to acknowledge the fact that the arts really at least made me feel like I wasn't a complete alien. You know, like I didn't feel like, oh, man, I'm the only one who feels this because I was listening to Nine Inch Nails and The Cure and Smashing Pumpkins. It's like hearing all these bands made me feel less alone.

[00:14:32] You know, I saw a movie really that kind of saved my life, I would say. It's a pump up the volume with Christian Slater in which there was somebody who successfully committed suicide in the film. And it's how it affects him. And it's how it affects the town and all that stuff. And when I saw that, and this was after my attempt, I really felt a sense of connection that I'd never really experienced before because I wasn't really having these kinds of conversations with my peers.

[00:15:00] But when I saw this movie, I was like, oh, wait a minute. Somebody else wanted to end it all. And it was really about teen angst. It was really about like, I mean, a lot of the people in the film were high school age, like 16 and up. But I still related very strongly to a lot of what's talked about in the film. I always kind of acknowledge that like experience of my mom took me to see this movie and suddenly it all clicked.

[00:15:26] Like suddenly I was like, oh, this is something that happens that people go through. And there's even like a really uplifting kind of final speech about surviving. This is kind of the point. Life kind of sucks and being a teenager sucks, but maybe it'll get better. It was never, they never said it will get better. Just hearing the word maybe suddenly I went, oh, I might still be struggling with dark thoughts and ideation.

[00:15:53] But now I don't feel like actively trying again after seeing that movie. Tell me more about your parents. I'm really curious about how their breakup or the possibility of them breaking up affected you. I think a lot of it had to do with the idea of my parents divorcing to the point of having to live with my mom and not seeing my dad as much anymore.

[00:16:20] Because to me, like he was my source of strength. It's surreal to think about like, and it's probably me putting him on a pedestal to a degree now. But I never, I don't have any memory of arguing any sort of tension or awkwardness with him at all. Whereas my mom, it's kind of the opposite where she never dealt with her own issues or depression or anxiety.

[00:16:43] I almost felt like she was kind of always treating me like a therapist or at least externalizing things that maybe I shouldn't have seen a lot of the time or just not dealing with her emotions in a very healthy way. So the idea in my mind was, my parents are going to get divorced. So I'm going to have to live with my mom. And that's what I'm going to be exposed to on a regular basis. And I'd rather not ever think about that or I'd rather not experience that.

[00:17:12] So I think that was the major turning point was just the thought of this is going to happen. And it was getting very close. Like, I'm pretty sure they sat me down. I don't even have a clear memory of it. It was like this, we're going to at least separate. And that I was sort of projecting more in the future because again, they weren't officially divorced, but I just kept seeing the idea of only being surrounded by my mom who is kind of nothing but negative energy most of the time.

[00:17:41] Whereas my dad was nothing but positive energy most of the time. So like a stark contrast in parenting, but also it created a strange balance to where again, like some of the times I felt stable. Some of the time I felt like, oh, as long as my dad's around, I'm cool. You know, certainly once the thought of not getting to see my dad as much, that might've been it. That might've been what kind of set me off and made me actually go into the medicine cabinet. Yeah.

[00:18:09] Like all the things sort of culminated and built up in my mind where I'm like, what good is my life going to be? Especially if I don't have the source of strength and around regularly anymore. A lot of it also was just, you know, what if I'm unattractive or not going to make friends or not really feeling like the me I want to be is what's the point really?

[00:18:33] You know, so that's kind of where I was and I did want to end it, but there is a weird experience with the hallucinations because at some point, like maybe later on, I just felt maybe like euphoric a little bit. And I don't know if it was like the possibility of my mind shutting down and going, oh, this is good. It's going to end. So, you know, maybe there was that feeling on top of it again. Like it's, it's hard to remember all that.

[00:19:00] I do remember feeling some sort of like contrast between, oh God, there's bugs. Oh God, there's a lobster. This is terrifying. I'm scared to a sense of peace and calm towards the end. Uh, and then, you know, once I threw up and then I went to actually went to sleep for most of the rest of the next day, I was just like, oh, phew. Okay. Ready to move on.

[00:19:23] But also too scared to really tell my parents how I got to that point or think about like, oh, maybe I'll go tell the guidance counselor. You know, or like, I'd never, like none of these things came into my mind of like, oh, I should try and get help or I should try and address this with professionals or anything. It was more just like, well, that was a thing I did, you know? And again, like, I'm not trying to like laugh it off as like, or, you know, downplay it.

[00:19:52] But at the same time, I sort of just sat with it and thought, okay, I survived. Maybe that's, there's a reason why I didn't die. So how are things after that? I would say I'm struggling, but I'm managing it a little bit better because one, that movie for sure. And sort of like realizing, oh, maybe there's more movies out there, you know, like maybe I'll feel less alone if I keep seeking out movies, you know?

[00:20:21] And certainly they weren't all the same kinds of movies. I was just kind of like, this is probably instead of going to a therapist, this is what I'll do. And also picking up a guitar. I think certainly things like that, that era of music with Nirvana, especially. I was like, oh, maybe that's how I can channel this energy. Maybe that's how I can find catharsis in a way. And because like, I'm seeing it on MTV, right?

[00:20:48] Like I'm seeing Kurt Cobain screaming his heart out, you know, dealing with his demons. So it might've been even as like, maybe like a few months later that it sort of hit me that instead of sports and other things that people in my age group were doing. I asked my dad, can we, can I get a guitar?

[00:21:12] And he was totally like psyched about that because again, like I wasn't always sure what my hobbies and interests were going to be. And we tried every sport. We tried a lot of different things. I think going to the music store, picking out a guitar and learning it was how I dealt with, oh, I had a shitty day at school. Right. Now I can go home and do this thing where I can hold it in my hands and, you know, try my best to get out that energy, that negative energy in a really positive way.

[00:21:42] So I think that's really a saving grace for me. Like I think to this day, that's one of the things, I mean, that's how I knew recently too. Like I'm, I'm super depressed because I'm not playing guitar or I'm not doing the things that I enjoy doing. Yeah. Finding those things or even one thing. So big, man. Just so big, right? It really is. I mean, again, it could be painting, you know, throughout like the next 10 years is like, okay, I have movies. I have music. I have a band. I have friends. I have a support network.

[00:22:11] In my mid twenties, my dad passed away from kidney cancer is pretty much like right after 9-11. Like that happened. And it was affecting a long-term relationship I was in to where I'm like, oh yeah, I'm completely shut down. I can't really even function normally. Or I can't, again, be the me I want to be and certainly be emotionally available for my partner.

[00:22:33] So that's, you know, and certainly when you lose the person in your life that you're closest to, it's really hard to just suddenly get up out of bed sometimes. And I decided like, well, this is it. This is, there's never been a better time for me to try getting help, getting therapy, medication, you know, because even a few years before that, like I was getting migraines pretty bad. And we saw a specialist and he actually suggested Prozac.

[00:23:00] It actually made my parents very upset because he felt like, okay, you're not actually addressing the physical symptom of the migraine. You're just thinking, oh, he's depressed. All he needs is this pill. So it was like, again, there was a stigma. Like just the idea of like, oh, here you go. Here's Prozac. That'll solve everything. They weren't open to that. I sort of shut down from that.

[00:23:22] You know, after my dad passed, it sort of thought, I sort of thought, well, this is probably what I need in order to actually function better and be emotionally available. So I tried therapy. Again, like the first therapist, not so great. Like just mostly listened. Didn't really engage in a way that I wanted. I'm not saying like therapy has to be a full-blown conversation, but I want a little bit of give and take back and forth. Well, hold up, Jim. Hold up. So, yeah, no, I think it needs to be a conversation, no?

[00:23:52] I mean, I think a lot of the times I do feel like I'm doing most of the talking in therapy, and I think that's relatively normal. You know, certainly recently, though, I mean, the therapist I currently have, it's definitely more back and forth. And maybe it's like, oh, she knows that's kind of what I need and require. And maybe I even said that up front. But yeah, so, I mean, I wasn't too keen on the first therapist that I had to where, you know, again, I thought, well, maybe this isn't going to work. Maybe it's just going to be, you know, me venting and not really getting anywhere outside of like, oh, I vented.

[00:24:22] Okay, now what? So I did, I did like have a little bit of a closed mind initially towards it because I don't know if I was in the right frame of mind to even accept that idea of it working. You ideating a lot during this time? Not too much. Certainly after my dad passed and the person I was with for three years left me. It hit me harder than I expected it to.

[00:24:48] And I thought about it again, right around mid-20s again, you know, around the time of losing my dad. But also just, it was like a year later that my partner said, we're not connecting, we're not present for each other. And I know she had demons to work through. I know she had a lot of things also to address on her own and still is. And thankfully we're, we're totally fine. And we sort of like, you know, once in a while check in with each other.

[00:25:15] This wasn't like this, you know, devastating breakup, but it was like, oh, we've grown apart. You know, that's like 13 years after my first attempt. I thought of that's, I'm in that dark place. I don't know if I can actually handle being alone and mostly being the caretaker for my mom because, you know, she wasn't able to function hardly at all for a good long time after my dad passed.

[00:25:40] So I was like dealing with my grief, dealing with her grief, you know, and then also not really fully addressing my depression because I wasn't really doing much outside of taking an antidepressant. Now I know like therapy, medicine, support, all these things are really necessary to, for growth and hopefully resilience. But yeah, back then it was a pretty, pretty dark and heavy time.

[00:26:04] But I, you know, again, like I, I just really do credit like, oh, I'm going to write my way out of this through music. I still play a song to this day that I wrote in that frame of mind and that like, there's no hope. This sucks. I'm not going to get better. And now it's like, I play that song. It just, it feels like a whole different person, but also it is still a part of me. You know, it's like, it is like time travel in a strange way where it's kind of like, oh, I'm going back to this horrible period of time.

[00:26:34] Like 20 years ago, but I've also changed, learned from that experience. It's something I think about too, to this day. It's because like, even recently a friend of mine wrote this piece about, you know, a song that speaks to him very strongly and sort of like acknowledge the fact that, oh, I think about suicide every day. Even though like, you know, he's got his shit together. Life is great for the most part. I mean, again, you kind of frame that, like, or you project that and want to believe that. I mean, I guess I'm in that same boat.

[00:27:04] I think like, oh, going back to, yeah. After my dad passed, something changed in my brain. Rewired in a way to kind of just like accept that there's an ending. I certainly didn't want it to be that soon for him. You know, I mean, that's 52. It's way too young. He should still be here. But I also try to frame it as like, well, he didn't suffer too greatly with the cancer like a lot of people do.

[00:27:31] And I feel like we need to normalize rather than stigmatize like this idea of death as this horrible, awful thing. If I think about suicide every day, it's not I want to end my life. It's more of like a comfort in a strange way. Like I could choose to do this, but I'm not going to because I have this and I can't foresee me like getting to that point again. But I mean, it's you just never you just never know.

[00:27:56] And it's like kind of like I don't necessarily want to even implant that idea of for people either to be like, well, that's that could be the answer. That could be what you want to do. And again, like I have I know the majority of people on this planet have a fear of death. And I always thought it's a little weird for me not to. It's not relief like, oh, thank God life is over. It's but, you know, it's whatever happens, happens kind of a feeling like, OK, if I die, I die and I'm OK with that.

[00:28:26] Like I've had things in life that I'm proud of that I've done. I've had great relationships and friendships and successes here and there. I always say, like, I don't want to die tomorrow, but if it happens, I'd be like, all right, you know, as opposed to like, oh, no, I didn't get I didn't live a full life or oh, no, I'm too young. Again, I don't know if it's just like me downplaying death to some degree, but I also am OK with it.

[00:28:54] You know, I feel like it just makes me feel better as opposed to like, oh, God, death. No, anything but that. Keep it away. No, you know. No, I didn't ask you, Jim. How did you find the podcast? Well, I mean, I've been listening to mental health podcasts here and there was the Mental Illness Happy Hour. Is that one? I haven't listened to that in a while. It could have. I don't I don't think I typed in like suicide in iTunes or Apple podcast or something.

[00:29:22] It's it's kind of like one of those things where I wonder if it was just like the algorithm maybe recommended it. Yeah, I'm sure I know I came across it. I was like, wow, that sounds heavy and right up my alley because I love listening to people share their stories. You know, I mean, even in group right now for me, I it's like always been more of a preference to listen more than actively. Like, say, let me make it about me. I was I was definitely listening and I I, you know, heard stories and I was listening to it regularly.

[00:29:51] And now I thought, well, Sharon should share her story because we're we're we're both open books. Yeah. And she did. And now you are, which is I really appreciate. Is that is that the word dark? I don't know why I don't feel like this stuff is dark. I guess. Yeah, I go to the word dark. Hmm. I mean, again, maybe it's just like society telling me it's dark. I mean, like it's kind of like just a go to word, even though I know it's comforting. I know it's helpful.

[00:30:20] I know it's something that I get a positive experience from. It's not like, oh, no, I just listen to this podcast now. I don't want to I don't even I can't handle life or it's too much. I can't do this. I can't like, you know, function because I listen to this. It's the opposite. It's refreshing because most people don't. I mean, I think the majority of my family do come from a time and place and generation where you don't talk about mental health. Don't talk about sex. Don't talk about drugs.

[00:30:49] Don't talk about like anything that's quote unquote unhealthy or, you know, just things that that's that's all. Yeah, the private. Exactly. That's exactly it. And certainly that influenced my, you know, growing up, especially like, oh, I'm having dark thoughts. Oh, I'm having panic attacks. And but the last thing I'm going to do is share it and bring it out into the open when that's exactly. Nowadays, I feel like younger generations, because I taught music for a while. I mean, they're they're a complete open book.

[00:31:18] They will come and say, oh, I feel depressed today. Oh, I had a panic attack. Oh, I could, you know, most of the time, like sometimes music was their therapy. So if it was like this is kind of interesting how it's shifted and changed. And I think a lot of it probably has to do with podcasts like yours. It is putting something good into the world. But, you know, because most of the time people don't want to talk about it or don't want to acknowledge it. And I'm glad that I can have this experience, too. But it's also I get I can see myself needing a nap and it's normal, too.

[00:31:49] Totally. A nap. Are you kidding me? When we're done with this conversation, I will likely be having a nap. So how do you cope? How do you get through the days? How do you navigate things? I mean, again, like externalizing the internal to me is how I deal now as opposed to keeping it all inside. I mean, I've always had music, but still actually talking and having conversations weren't always easy.

[00:32:13] But because of my partner, but because of certain friends or even the IOP that I'm currently doing, it certainly feels like this is what would not only make me feel better, but potentially make other people feel better. It's like a sense of interconnectivity. You know, and I think that's another reason why podcasts are so great. I mean, yes, I may never meet you in person. Yes, I may never have a cup of coffee with you or something.

[00:32:41] But this is still like a form of socializing. It's easier for introverts. You know, it's like I'm not going to go to a party and necessarily be like, hey, I also go like this is this is to me like more productive than small talk. And I want people to have big talk. You know, I want people to open up, be vulnerable. Let it let it out. Don't be afraid. Oh, big talk. Big talk. Is that memoir material? Or the movie. Maybe something with music, too, right?

[00:33:11] Yeah. Again, like I think playing music live, like a lot of people, you know, obviously have a fear of singing and putting themselves out there in that regard. Like to me, that feels easier than giving a presentation. Like if I were I don't know how I'd feel about doing this in front of a huge crowd of people. There'd have to be a certain comfort level and possibly maybe like half of a benzodiazepine to get me through it.

[00:33:34] But no, I think in general, like, I mean, it's not that scary to me to share this kind of stuff. And to the point of conceptualizing a mental health documentary of my own, if I just get real and share this kind of stuff, then it might help other people. But it also brings it out into the open in a way that, I mean, I don't share this with everybody. What if I did? How how would that play out with certain people? I don't know. But there's certainly like a curiosity of that.

[00:34:02] Like, you know, like even just doing this, like what's what's it going to maybe it'll just be put out there. And that's that. It's not like I'm expecting. Oh, yeah. Like everybody's me like listening to your episode, thinking all these profound thoughts or anything. But it's I'm hopeful that it does good. And that's kind of all I kind of aspire for in life is to just to do good. And it's challenging, certainly when you have a day job, when, you know, this country is headed in a scary direction, depending on where you lean politically. But we don't have to go there.

[00:34:31] And I think that's also troubling to me. Like sometimes the macro level issues will override like the micro level individual stuff where I'm just kind of like, let's talk about what's really going to happen in the world. I don't need to talk about me. Those issues seem a lot bigger. But then again, am I deflecting? Right. Like I'm like, let's just talk about that stuff and not talk about me. Yeah, for sure. There's something interesting about this dynamic podcast one on one conversation. Yeah.

[00:34:59] No, I mean, active listening, because now it's I mean, they're all a big challenge with the IOP program is doing mindfulness meditation, which is something that like, oh, I just get too caught up in my thoughts to really like focus on breathing or my body or whatever. I don't know. There is kind of a meditative act to just I mean, people probably are doing dishes while listening to a podcaster. But at the same time, like if they're just mindfully listening and even if it's, quote unquote, a passive act. But I don't know.

[00:35:28] Like, I think you can still feel a connection. I think you could still feel less alone when you hear other people just talk. And I think that's what's also helped me over these years. I really hyper focus a lot on music and movies just because I think they've been around longer and they've been helping since I was a teenager.

[00:35:46] But now I think podcasting in general and podcasts are also a huge reason why I can't foresee me getting to that place again in the future of I'm going to take the pills again or do something else. There's a lot of outlets. There's a lot of things out there for me to connect with or connect to. Tell me a little bit more about your podcast. There's some fun. There's some fun stuff in there.

[00:36:11] I recommend the Charlie Kaufman episode because that is self and Sharon talking about a lot of heavy stuff because Charlie Kaufman, his movies are full of depression and anxiety and self-doubt. So a lot of things that probably have come up on this show definitely come up in that episode. How long have you been doing the podcast? When did it start? Well, there's been some breaks. It's going on 11 years. Wow. 11 years? All right. I'm at almost five.

[00:36:41] 11 is a good goal. Inspired. I'm inspired. So it's kind of cool that you and Sharon are both involved in some of these creative projects, sometimes together. I mean, she's so inspiring to me in terms of like how she's gotten through what she's gotten through. Like, I mean, I've never experienced mania. It's always been the depression. It's always been anxiety for me. Like, you know, listening to her share her story and continuing to do so and acknowledging a lot of the things that she's overcome or at least managed and dealt with.

[00:37:09] It's something that like I feel grateful for, like in terms of our partnership, but also just connecting on that deeper level of like, oh, yeah, when we feel unwell, we can confide in each other and it isn't scary. I can't go to my mom and be like, I'm depressed or I had a panic attack because I'm not going to get that same level of comfort and security.

[00:37:32] And it would immediately get to it like a place of defeat or potentially like, oh, God, I'm really messed up if you're like this, you know, and that's not the case with Sharon. Sharon's like a beacon of resilience and compassion. You know, I mean, we still struggle like most people do. You know, it's like I often like say like, oh, once I get out of this IOP program, everything's going to be great. Right. Like I'm going to have all the tools and anytime something comes up, I'm going to be fine.

[00:38:02] But no, that's not true. You know, like there's always going to be good days and bad days. There's always going to be something, a challenge or, you know, any number of things. So I also try to proceed with caution by not putting, you know, Sharon on a pedestal, but I also acknowledge the fact that she's remarkably strong and brave and kind. We're also human. We're imperfect, but maybe our imperfections complement each other and work in our favor.

[00:38:30] You know, that's not always the case with a lot of people. They have contrasting personalities or issues that like eventually cause them to fall apart. But I think it, it keeps us together, like having these kinds of conversations and continuing to like acknowledge like, oh yeah, I'm having a shitty day. Let's talk about it. As opposed to like, I'm having a shitty day. Let's do heroin. Well, this won't be popular or endorsed, but I'm having a shitty day. Let's do heroin. You know what I'm thinking. Memoir title. Okay, I'll move on. How many people know about your attempt?

[00:39:00] I mean, once I was in the very, you know, my first serious relationship, I, I told her, uh, I guess it was, it wasn't until my twenties that I really opened up. I, I certainly had a few close friends here and there throughout high school, but it was just like, why bring that up? Let's just focus on having fun, you know? But once the twenties rolled around and depression sort of relapsed in the extreme way, I started talking a little bit more about it. And certainly with close friends, I think most of them know.

[00:39:28] And even in this, uh, documentary that I'm working on, it's something I brought up. It's something like I just sort of threw in there. Cause a lot of it was just going to be kind of me talking about like, oh, I wanted to make movies, but I never really got around to it. All right. So tell me more about this documentary. Tell me about the documentary, Jim. Yeah. It's, it's kind of like a memoir documentary hybrid thing.

[00:39:49] It's kind of messy right now, but I'm like, I really want to, and a lot of it is inspired by the mental film, this film festival and seeing a lot of the films shown there. And a lot of them are documentaries about like, let me tell you my story in a similar way that, you know, people do with the podcast, but it's just in audio visual form. Right. I'm hoping that'll happen next year. Like I complete it and figure out exactly what I want it to be.

[00:40:13] You know, part of me is like, I would love to make the IOP program part of the film and the journey, but they're all about confidentiality. And I also don't want it to just be me talking into a camera. You know, the first scene yet? Well, certainly the first scene, you know, very early on in my childhood, when my dad first got a camcorder, him videotaping me and being really excited about my dad's got this new toy.

[00:40:38] My dad's got this new device, this piece of technology that nobody else in the neighborhood has yet. And just like being so excited about this camera, you know? And to me, like, that's one of the things that brought us together was just like our love of technology. And we love taking photos and we certainly love shooting home movies.

[00:40:58] So it's sort of starting with that, like acknowledging like, oh, my dad sort of kickstarted this love of telling stories through cameras and the home camcorder when it was kind of kind of this brand new thing. This is like the mid 80s or something. You know, I was just like, whoa, we have this cool new thing. Then we could watch our birthday party on a TV afterwards, you know? So I'm starting it with that. I feel really strongly about like, oh, this is kind of where my story begins, really.

[00:41:27] It's just with this camera, with my dad. I feel like maybe there should be a lobster in there somewhere, no? Maybe just in the background. It'll be like an Easter egg. That's what I'm thinking. Like, just throw it in there and see if anybody picks up on it. Right. It's hard. It's hard to sort of capture one's life, right? It's funny.

[00:41:47] Like one of the last conversations I had with my aunt, it does feel like every 10 years, something either triggering or difficult has happened that would put me in a place of uncertainty as to how I can handle it. In the teens, the suicide attempt, my 20s, losing my dad. And in my 30s, I was in a very sort of codependent relationship with roommates. You know, it's like I'm not proud of my behavior.

[00:42:16] You know, drinking played a role. And it's something like I kind of always thought like, well, I know my parents have a history of alcoholism. So I have that awareness. I'm not going to fall down that same path. And that's kind of what happened in my 30s. And it's under control. It's certainly something I managed.

[00:42:35] And it's not like I would label myself an alcoholic, but it was, again, a period of time that I know I struggled with and still processed to some degree only because I realized like, oh, yeah, codependence. That's real. That's hardcore. That's something that you can't just be like, oh, well, it's whatever. It is what it is. But you do have to realize like, oh, God, I was putting the other person's needs ahead of mine. I was enabling.

[00:43:05] I was not necessarily thinking in terms of I wasn't making healthy decisions for either of us in that situation. I also learned a lot. I also learned like, oh, I boundaries and things that I have to be conscious of and not necessarily like just let happen because it's it's challenging because you're two people dealing with very similar issues living in the same space. And you sort of frame it as like we're roommates. We're friends.

[00:43:34] But what happens like if you are constantly getting vulnerable together and you're the only like you two are the only ones hanging out practically like I. Yes, I had friends. Yes, I went to the movies. Yes, I was doing other things. But still, it was like this is what I'm coming home to. This is the environment that I'm in. And that was certainly something that, you know, took me a long time to just sort of sit back and kind of go, oh, that wasn't good. That was not something that I ever thought I would actually do.

[00:44:03] But now that I know that's a part of me, I can learn from that and not repeat the same patterns, you know. Yeah, no, codependence is another difficult thing to actually assess because when you're empathic and you're sensitive, you often people please. And, you know, to a degree where, yes, you I just want to make the person happy. If I just make the other person happy, then I'll be happy. Right. That's kind of the cornerstone of codependence. It's not even thinking about yourself practically. Exactly. I'm glad.

[00:44:32] In a way, I'm glad that like we worked through that, me and my roommate. Like we sort of, you know, we don't actively message each other or keep in touch as the way we did back then. But like we got to a good place where we sort of both acknowledged. Yeah, we kind of kind of let things get out of hand in that circumstance. So that's something else I can acknowledge as being difficult. And to this day, just sort of like work through in therapy to some degree.

[00:44:58] Most recently, within 10 years, I just sort of kind of would say that like a depression relapse happened. You know, it wasn't again to the point of suicidal ideation, but it was more just like, oh, yeah, I'm not doing well again. And not necessarily like this is exactly why. It's more just, oh, I'm not doing all the things that I normally would do. Or I'm not able to be, you know, comfortable with intimacy with Sharon or just like constantly thinking the worst is going to happen.

[00:45:28] Or just like always kind of in a negative mindset and ruminating a lot. So, but, you know, again, like I've never just been in this experience of only focusing on mental health. It's good, but it's just really heavy most of the time. There are things that we do that are fun. You know, it's not like, oh, we're just going to all talk about grief and depression and anxiety.

[00:45:56] There are ways to make it engaging and interesting and light and certainly play games or do art therapy. Yeah, it's new. I'm glad I'm doing it because it was affecting me at my job. It was affecting my relationships. And, you know, just not being able to manage emotional highs and lows to where like now I feel good that I'm at least making this effort. With the acknowledgement that it's not going to be a cure-all, right?

[00:46:25] Like I, a lot of people think like, if I just find the right medicine, if I just find the right therapist, if I'm happy in a relationship, then everything will work itself out. I think it's a constant day-to-day struggle, but managing it better than I used to because, gosh, you know, lockdown, COVID, all that stuff. I mean, that just sent everybody into a tailspin, including myself.

[00:46:47] Like I found myself back into nasty old habits where it's like instead of replacing, well, I replaced drinking with binge eating. I think it's something that I struggled with even as a teenager was just like, oh, fast food is great. Let's just go get fast food and not really thinking about health. But yeah, certainly during lockdown, it was more of just like, oh, I'm eating way more than I normally would and not really even being conscious of it. That was something else that I sort of had to work through and kind of go, oh, yeah, I want to work on my physical health.

[00:47:17] I mean, that's important too. It's important to eat healthy, at least go for walks at the very, at the minimum, but just at least getting out and not just sitting around all day. So that's why I feel like I'm in a better place now. But again, like I always, like I, like I said earlier, it's a strange comfort, but it's a comfort that it's not going to last forever. Like we're not vampires, you know, it's, and I'm not saying like, I want it to end either, but it's just like life has an ending.

[00:47:46] I'm curious to see what that's going to be. Part of me wants to stick around because I'm actually curious to see how I'm going to go out. Like in an organic sort of way, like I don't want it to be cancer Alzheimer's, but you know, I, I'm just curious, like how, how the universe is going to decide. Okay. It's your time. Are there any myths or misconceptions you would like to dispel? I struggle with the DSM. I struggle with diagnosis.

[00:48:13] I wouldn't say it's bullshit because I know it's comforting to have a label. I am this, or I have this, but one of the reasons why I struggled with pursuing therapy, because I even went to college for psychology. Hmm. I wonder why I was trying to figure myself out, but also my mom or other people. But I guess I had a, like a love hate relationship sometimes with a class where I, they basically just like, okay, read this paragraph, say that they have this. And that's the end of that.

[00:48:43] I just think like, it's more than just, I have major depressive disorder. I mean, it certainly helps for health insurance purposes, like to have that, you know, on a document and to acknowledge that and to say that out loud. Like I have this, so I can go on disability or any number of things, but it's not, I wouldn't go to the extreme of it being bullshit, but I've always been conflicted about even just reducing it to that.

[00:49:09] Defining yourself by this diagnosis necessarily, you know, a show I really responded to was crazy ex-girlfriend. She has a wonderful song about like, I feel great now that I have a diagnosis, you know? And I think she was sort of touching on what I'm touching on, you know, just kind of going, Hmm, don't put all your eggs in that basket. There's more to it. We're, we're, we're, we're more than just that. We're, there's a lot of layers. There's a lot of nuance to our pain. Absolutely.

[00:49:39] Did you get any diagnoses over the years you agree with? Well, for certain generalized anxiety disorder, major depressive disorder are the ones that have come up the most for me, but you know, my doctor, because of trouble focusing ADHD. So like all three, I think sort of play off of each other. Some, something in the back of my mind always felt a little uneasy about just like saying, okay, you have this, write it down.

[00:50:04] That's that, you know, and I'm, I know that's not the end of the story either, but it's just something that I think we should think about in addition to the other things. Like I talked about earlier about being okay with death and dying. You know, I think that's something that I feel comfortable acknowledging yet. But I also don't want to just like say, it's okay to go that route, you know, to go, to go the route of ending your life. You have that choice.

[00:50:30] But I also would hope that the person would reach out for support if they feel that dark, you know, or again, I said the word dark. All right. Pink and purple pill. I'm going to let the audience know, the listeners who may not know what the pink and purple pill is. I give you a pill. You take it. You go to sleep. There is no pain. You die. And nobody knows it's a suicide. What would you do with that pill? I don't take it.

[00:50:56] I keep it in a drawer, the medicine cabinet as a source of, again, comfort that if I want to, I could. It's not to say like that's that would the instinct would be, okay, life is horrible right now. Take that pill. But it's very similar to what Bill Hader talked about. I want to say it was Bill Hader, but it might have been somebody, another SNL cast member who would often just bring a Klonopin in their pocket.

[00:51:23] Not necessarily to take it, but they felt so much better knowing it was there. What's one thing you want anybody who's listening to know? Find an outlet. Find your voice. You know, like movies, music, arts, anything. That's what I've always been telling people. But I know it's easier said than done when you don't have the energy or motivation to do it. And I think that's the place that my mom has been most of her life. Like she hasn't found hobbies or an outlet.

[00:51:51] I think that's sad and a little scary, but I also have to frame it as like, I'm not going down that same route. I found things. And that's what I always encourage other people to do in general. It's just find a podcast. Become a podcaster. Do it. Share your voice. And if you feel like nerding out over movies, check out my podcast.

[00:52:16] Check out Jim's podcast and then maybe take a nap. I think that's good to do. Like I think after a conversation like this and being in the IOP program earlier, like it's needed. And then I will wake up and have a nice dinner. I thank you for joining me here, Jim. And I thank you for talking so openly. And I hope you enjoy your dinner. Please tell Sharon I say hello. Really appreciate it. I appreciate you. Thank you. Maybe we'll get a cup of coffee sometime in Chicago.

[00:52:47] Absolutely. We'll let me know when you're around, all right? Will do. Ciao for now. Later. Bye-bye. As always, thanks so much for listening and all of your support. And special thanks to Jim in Illinois. Thank you, Jim. If you are a suicide attempt survivor and you'd like to talk, please reach out. Our email is hello at suicidenoted.com. I would love to talk with you. You can check the show notes to learn more about this podcast, including our membership and the Noted Network.

[00:53:15] And of course, we always appreciate a rating or a review. It really helps people find this podcast. And we want more people to find this podcast. Thank you. Stay strong. Do the best you can. I will talk to you soon.