Jennifer in California (6-year anniversary)

[00:00:00] She said to me, she said, Jennifer, I want you to think about every single choice and decision and moment in your life that has gotten you to this point right now. I said, I'm not feeling very good about myself right now and I'd like to end the phone call. And I hung out and I went to my closet and I hung myself.

[00:00:37] Hey there, my name is Sean and this is Suicide Noted. On this podcast, I talk with suicide attempt survivors and ideators so that we can hear their stories. Every year around the world, millions of people try to take their own lives and we almost never talk about it. We certainly don't talk about it enough. And when we do talk about it, when we engage with people in pain, we're not very good at it.

[00:00:59] So one of my goals with this podcast and some other projects related to this podcast is to have more conversations and hopefully better conversations with survivors. In large part to help more people in more places hopefully feel a little less shitty and a little less alone. Now if you are an attempt survivor or ideator and you'd like to talk, please reach out. It's real simple. I'd love to talk with you. I really would. Hello at suicidenoted.com. And if you are in the position to support this podcast, we could certainly use some help.

[00:01:29] You might have noticed we recently changed fiscal sponsors so you might see two different links. The new link should start with donorbox.com slash a bunch of other stuff. If there is any confusion about that, just reach out to me and I'll make sure you get the correct link. And I appreciate the help. And if that's not something you want to do or you can do and your main thing is listening to this podcast once in a while or maybe you're a weekly listener, I really appreciate that very, very much. Finally, we are talking about suicide here on this podcast as we've been doing since 2020.

[00:01:58] I realize it is not a good fit for everyone. So please take that into account before you listen or as you listen. But I do hope you listen because there is so much to learn. Today I am talking with Jennifer. Jennifer lives in California and she is a suicide attempt survivor. Jennifer. You're from New Zealand originally? Yes. So I was actually born in Connecticut because my mom is a Yankee. So we moved back to New Zealand when I was three.

[00:02:27] My dad is the Kiwi side. I grew up there and then came back to the States to go to uni. And I've been in California for maybe almost 15 years now. So it's home. Now, I want to ask you something or actually share with the audience, if I may. It's very common that people reach out to me and they're curious or simply state that they want to be on the podcast, which is what you did. You wrote a couple of things that I've never received before. May I read them aloud? Oh, yes. Okay.

[00:02:50] Tell me about your first kiss or the best meal you've ever had or a kismet moment, which is funny because you just asked three questions, even though you thought you just got one free question. No pressure, mate, showing her roots in New Zealand a little bit. I'm just here to be a human being with another human being and share it with other human beings. And so it's just great because that's why I do the podcast. And I want to thank you for talking with me. Thank you. Yeah, thank you for hosting me. This is nothing like I would ever do.

[00:03:20] I'm such a private person and I don't know why I wanted to do this. I'm still not quite sure. I want to push back a little bit and ask you why you want to do this. I have no idea. I don't buy it. I've actually been listening because sometimes I take breaks like one needs, right? And I had been listening more recently because I knew it's coming up and the ones that always resonate with me are the mothers, right? Because I'm a mother and it's my entire world. It's the only thing I ever knew I really wanted to do in my whole life.

[00:03:47] I like the idea of leaving something for my daughter should things not work out so well, you know? And I'm not a note writer, so that's not going to happen. Just as some type of explanation, should it not go my way? Right. So when I started the podcast, I named the podcast. I never thought of it as – I was playing with words, right? It's like a double entendre. But then I realized this does serve as a sort of longer extended audio note for some people, you know? Yeah.

[00:04:14] A place to find the words and hear things and maybe get explanations sometimes. Yeah. And for me, like I don't have ideation and I don't have intent. I have severe OCD. Yeah. So – and PTSD. But in the past when I've been stuck in that thought loop is when I will attempt, even though that's not what I want.

[00:04:40] I had never even thought about suicide or anything before my first attempt and I didn't know I had OCD then. So it was a bit of a shocker. How long ago was that? First attempt. Three or four years ago. Okay. So up until that point, we don't have to talk that much. Yeah. Like there's just not that much to it. I mean, I want to hear a bullet version of your life. You already gave it. You were born in Connecticut. Your mom was partnered with or married to a Kiwi. You moved to New Zealand.

[00:05:10] You eventually went to university. I like that you say that because we wouldn't say it that way. We would probably say college. Americans. Oh, no, that's funny. I went to a college though. And so I'm curious about that just as a sort of little context because with the picture I think you're going to be painting is up until three or four years ago, things were pretty decent. Yeah. Like I did not.

[00:05:31] I had a mix of a beautiful childhood in the sense that I grew up horseback riding and skiing and I was sent to a private Catholic school. I was taught by nuns. It was kind of like an international school because we traveled a lot and we went on a holiday or we would come to Connecticut to see my mom's family, work, you know, for my mom too. That sounds like a rather wealthy life. I didn't know it at the time because you don't know any different, right?

[00:06:01] But now, but also it's like we're in late stage capitalism at the decline of an empire. So, um, different, different podcast, but an awesome conversation. But at the same time, like, um, my parents like worked really hard and worked a lot. I didn't really have relationship with them outside of maybe holiday or my mom taking me to, um, like horse riding competitions, which I hated. I loved riding. I was taught to perform at a very young age.

[00:06:27] Um, and as soon as I got to leave, I was like, yes, I can finally start my life. Why did you choose the United States to go to college? I actually didn't want to go to uni. Oh. I was visiting family in Australia, um, like six days before I was supposed to attend and I didn't not want to go. So my mother had to drag me. Where did you end up going? Um, I went to Emerson College in Boston. Oh, I know. I actually know somebody who teaches there.

[00:06:56] I hated school. I hated school from the very beginning. I didn't even like, I loved, um, uni like friends and social life. And I loved living in Boston. Um, I just did not like all the classes. I didn't want to be there. Um, and that school is a very focused school. People desperately want to be there to study whatever, right? Film or whatever. I just, I did not care. I didn't want to be there, but I didn't have a choice. So, um, I mean, I finished everything. You did it. You finished. What would you, what did you want to be doing? Do you know?

[00:07:26] I wanted to travel, do a proper, we call it an OE, um, overseas experience. Yeah. So I was in Brisbane seeing some family there and I was due to go to Fiji. Um, but there was actually a military coup at the time. So they closed the islands. I couldn't miss the opportunity. I didn't know what I wanted to do, but I knew I did not. I knew I couldn't wait to be done with school. And I hated being signed up for four more years, but my mother's a very powerful woman and she doesn't, you don't say no to her. You don't say no to Jennifer's mother.

[00:07:55] You don't go to Fiji during a military coup. Things we're learning. Yeah. And I, and I know at some point you meet somebody and have a child with them. I do. Um, I'm queer. I've always been queer. I've never been on a date with a man in my entire life. I, I honestly, I, I've come full circle or I'm like, I used to hate like, oh, we don't choose to be gay or whatever. And I'd be like, um, you're acting like it's an insufferable, but now I really know a sexual is not a choice because I don't understand how women or men for that matter date men.

[00:08:25] I just, I'm kind of confused by two as a straight man who wonders that has wondered because of my, and I digress a little bit because I have not fallen in love properly. Or if I think about it, you know, after the fact you're like, well, maybe it was, maybe I'm single, never been married, no kids. I know who I'm attracted to. Uh, they are humans that don't have penises. Which women are just, sorry, sorry dudes. And, and women are going to get mad at this too, but women are better. I don't ever want to yuck someone's yum.

[00:08:55] And I, one of the reasons why I identify as queer is because I will date, like, I don't care what sport we're playing. I don't care what equipment we're using. Like put me in the game coach. Like I want to play. Um, I don't mind to date trans, I've dated trans men and trans women and non-binary, the whole thing. I'm just never going to date a cisgendered heterosexual man because that's not my culture. We have nothing in common. Also, I'm not, I have so much trauma around men and, um, abuse and sexual abuse that I,

[00:09:24] I cannot even feel safe like with them at all. So it's just never, ever going to happen. But, um, again, I can't explain it cause I'm not a straight woman either, but, um, the ones that get the good ones, you know, and I've got some great male friends. I mean, they're amazing. Right. And they provide a level of safety that as a queer woman walking through the world, I'm single too. I've been single for ages. Um, you just, you're not afforded safety.

[00:09:49] A lot of the times men, um, target women who don't have a man in their life to protect them. And when you're queer, that automatically signals like I, there's no one at home that might beat you up if you act fresh, you know? The abuse is part of the story. So in a way, like I, again, growing up, like I didn't know any different. It really wasn't until like I moved out and started my life and you know, everything. It really wasn't until I had my daughter.

[00:10:18] I could not imagine treating me the way that like other adults treated me in my life. I thought, wow, it's actually like really easy not to be a monster to children. I don't know why so many adults are, you know? Yeah, it's pretty common for people when they have a kid, they see things in any number of ways. Like it could go the other direction too, but it's like, right. How old were you when you had your daughter? I was pregnant at 29 and I had her at 30, which cause it, you know, don't accidentally get pregnant. So it takes some time. You got to save money and.

[00:10:48] You have to do a, a, a in vitro type thing. Um, I just did, I didn't need to do IVF. Um, I just, it's called IUI entry, neuron insemination. Um, it's about the same odds as like, but yes, needed to go to a sperm bank. I was with, um, uh, you know, Minovia, my girlfriend at the time. And, um, we were together for six, five, almost six years. So we obviously like we planned and saved and like watched all the videos about having babies and just all the good stuff. Uh, went and picked a donor.

[00:11:17] What do you like, what do they say? Like tall or. No, so, um, you have lots of options. Um, but what was important to me, which really narrowed my options was I wanted to choose a willing to be known donor. So it's a donor who agrees that, um, when the child turns 18, should the child want, they can go and they'll release the contact information and then they will have one type of communication. So it could be an email, a phone call, a visit, whatever is one agreed, you know, conversation.

[00:11:46] And then anything beyond that is up to obviously the child and the donor. And, um, I just think people want to know where they come from. It really has nothing to do with me and everything about my daughter. And I just wanted that option available to her. And, you know, should she never ask, that's fine. I know you're now under 48 years old. How old are you? Oh, uh, 44. 44. So she's not at the point yet where she's made that decision, presumably. No, she hasn't.

[00:12:12] And, um, I've actually talked to her about, um, like the sibling donor registry too. She's keen to any of that. And she just has no interest whatsoever because she just, I don't know, just doesn't. And maybe she never will and that's fine. Maybe she will and she'll have the option. So I just also think like more loving adults in your life is not a negative thing. So that was a big thing for me. And then my partner, um, wanted, um, to choose someone who is Mexican because she is born and

[00:12:41] raised in Mexico and that was really important to her. Now, now we're getting kind of narrow. You know what I mean? Like, you know that I'm in Mexico, right? I do. I do. So wait, so now you're saying you needed to choose somebody that was willing to be identified 18 years on and Mexican. There was probably like three choices. There weren't many, right? In the one place I went to, but, and then they had things like, I think there was like five that fit that. They had things like, do you want to see baby pictures or adult pictures?

[00:13:11] And, and I, I vetoed a lot. So I said, no, I don't want to see that. And I don't care. Um, and I don't want to know. And my partner was like, I really want. No, you know? And this is when you had already moved to California. What part? Um, San Francisco. Okay. And is that where you are now? No, no. I live in a like really rural California. I actually, so I was in San Francisco for six years. My daughter was born there. Okay. And then I moved back to Boston for one year. And then I was like, wait, I hate the cold.

[00:13:41] What am I doing? And then I moved to West Hollywood and lived there for three years and then moved to rural California, um, in 2018. It was not until you got to rural California that you even thought about the possibility of ending your life. Yes, absolutely. Yeah. I never, never want, I mean, not never. I'm sure you've, people think about all kinds of things that, but to personally take yourself out was not on the table. No, never.

[00:14:10] Like they truly did not understand suicide at all. Like I understood it conceptually, but you know, in an intellectual exercise way, but did not ever experience not one thought. When you would hear about somebody killing your, killing themselves, what were the words that would describe how you would respond to that when you learned of that? And I don't know if there's anyone close to you, but maybe more in general.

[00:14:34] So like literally no concept of it as a child or even really like teenager outside of like hearing about celebrities. And then I think I was just like, well, that's drugs. I, there's this really famous book turned into a movie called once were warriors. Gosh, I can't, I'm not going to say what happens, but that's a part of it. I, that w you know, and it was not drugs. It was inescapable life circumstance. I thought how sad, Frederick. So here's what I know.

[00:15:01] In 2018, you moved to rural California where you are now, a land of the wildfire. You're single at the time, I think. Yes. You have a daughter who was six, seven years old or something like that. When we moved here. Yes. Six when we moved here. Yes. And I also know, and this could be coincidence, but I'm going by the sort of world timelines that within about two years of being moving there, we hit COVID, which impacts everybody in different ways. And I'm guessing is a little bit part of this story.

[00:15:28] I kind of liked COVID, not like people dying. Of course, that's awful, but I'll never have a like inverted commas, normal nervous system. So everyday life is really hard for me, but I'm the person everyone calls when they're in crisis. I'm great in crisis. I do well in that because that's just my natural state. So I love the isolation. I mean, I'm already isolated because of where I live, but I love just not having to interact with society.

[00:15:55] I felt like I was thriving, you know, like during that time. Isn't that interesting? I'm not sure if COVID doesn't happen, I'm not sure I even start this podcast. It's one of those things that it feels like so long ago, but it also feels like a fever dream. Like, did that even really happen? I'm good at like survivalist type things, love to camp and hike and all that. So I've, despite growing up how I grew up, I've been very poor as an adult at times too. And so I remember I was thinking like, wow, some of you have never been poor before.

[00:16:24] If you're freaking out over not having something like. Yeah. Well, it's going to hit you differently if you're used to certain luxuries, aren't you? Isn't it? And I'm just very much like a minimalist in general. I haven't owned a TV in decades, like since the early aughts. I hate stuff. It stresses me out. I'd honestly be thrilled to like sleep in a hammock my whole life and, you know, walk the earth. Now, for some reason, I want my audience, our audience to have a bit of a visual. Jennifer's in her kitchen. She's standing, I think.

[00:16:53] Behind her is a dog that looks very peacefully at rest. She's amazing. Yeah, she's like my 24-7 therapy support dog. I just love to death. What's her name? Ava. You used the word precipitating event. I'm going to let you take over. I know that OCD, I think, is involved. Did you use another acronym that defined something around mental health conditions that I missed? Oh, I have comorbid PTSD too. You know, let's go back. And before we do that, and then I'm going to shut up and let you share what happened leading up to it.

[00:17:23] How many attempts do you have? Two. Two. So I guess to start, like, so my partner and I got pregnant, right? And yay. Shortly after I got pregnant, she decided I don't actually want to do this. She started drinking again after being sober for years, moved out when I was six months pregnant. So it has always only just been my daughter and I, even though that wasn't the plan. She has no involvement, provides no support. Haven't seen her, spoken to her since over a decade, right?

[00:17:48] A lot of people act like it's this huge trauma, but I honestly don't know any different. I mean, it is utterly exhausting, right? When you're the only person physically when they're younger. And then now that she's older emotionally, but my kid is the best in the entire world. Like I used to say I wanted six, but I stopped at perfection because I hit it right the first time. I mean, I- You got it. So all of that figuring out who to choose, you nailed it. Yeah. I mean, I, and again, I, um- And you were part of that because you're raising her.

[00:18:16] So like you were giving you a lot of credit there too. I, you know, I, I, I can't claim much on us because she's so good at so many things. I'm not, she's a amazingly talented artist, artist and singer. I just, she's so endlessly kind and compassionate. You don't think that you have a role. You probably don't have much of a role in her singing unless you're getting her amazing lessons. You don't think you have a role in her being kind and compassionate. Are you fucking kidding me? I hope so.

[00:18:42] But I have that thing where like, I can know intellectually, like that I'm not a bad person. Right? Like I volunteer, I pick up trash if I see it. Like one of the reasons why I'm vegan is because I love animals and I couldn't ever, you know, like, I mean, so all these things, but like, I don't feel that, you know, because of how I grew up. All right. So the partner leaves, your daughter's born, you move, your move. I know we're jumping around here.

[00:19:09] So, um, I was working here and I had, um, it was actually the day of the Christchurch shooting and I was just gutted because I couldn't believe that that would have happened. Like I say in my country, like I own it, but how could that happen in Alteo? It couldn't. And I was on at work with my boss who was like his, his house, his workshop, you know, that kind of thing. Again, in a rural location, he got so angry. He was listening to the news. He got so angry about the newsreader talking about statistics about firearms or something.

[00:19:38] And he went in and got his like loaded gun and was like, you know, like screaming, like, do you want to see a semi-automatic weapon? And like, just, I mean, unhinged, eh? And I was so terrified. You know, it's not the first time an angry man pulled a gun on me, but I was so terrified. And I just put down like the tools that I was working with and I went to go collect my, my bag and he stood in front of me in front of the door and he was like, oh, you're mad at me now. You're angry. And I said, no, I'm not. I'm scared.

[00:20:06] And, um, my daughter was actually there right outside because she had spring break and she was like six or seven, I think at the time, you know, eventually I leave. I get in my truck and I take her and we go home and the entire time I'm just shaking. I could barely drive. So I got home and I don't even know, the day's a bit of a blur. And then I messaged him that I, um, you know, was not going to be working there anymore.

[00:20:32] And he did not understand, of course, which was, you know, also an odd take. I've had so many worse things happen to me than that, but I don't know why that broke me. I got like stuck, right? Like in the like truest PTSD form of everything. Um, so what do you do when you're stuck or when you have, you know, that, well, you go to therapy, right? That's what you're supposed to do. So I, um, went to therapy and within four months I started self-harming. I was 40 years old.

[00:21:02] I had never self-harmed before in my entire life. I had such a rapid descent. Is that because the therapy brought out stuff that you didn't know or didn't, hadn't reckoned with or really shitty therapist? A mix of just an inexperienced therapist. I think she like generally meant well. Um, she was bright, but really just, it was an awful experience. It was constant dysregulation. And it became because I, you know, I didn't at the time know that I had OCD, but it became the self-harm became the compulsion.

[00:21:32] And then it became like rules and rituals around therapy, self-harming before therapy, self-harming after. So it broke me so much worse. And then, so I had that therapist for nine months and she left, um, for a new job, which, you know, was a good thing for me. And I had this, this new therapist who I really liked, very, very kind person, but did not know what to do with me, was also inexperienced and just did not know what to do with me.

[00:21:58] And I remember we, this leads to the attempt, we were speaking on the phone because it's phone therapy. She said to me, she said, Jennifer, I want you to think about every single choice and decision and moment in your life that has gotten you to this point right now. I said, um, I'm not feeling very good about myself right now. And I'd like to end the phone call. Um, and I hung out the phone and I went to my closet and I hung myself. I only woke up because like the rope broke at some point. And also too, I didn't know this.

[00:22:28] Perhaps it's because I had no intent. Your body will fight to stay alive. Like I remember really quickly, like losing vision when I woke up, like I had bruises all over me because I think I'd been thrashing for so long. Just want to go back for one sec. When you say you self-harm, are you, when you say self-harm, are you cutting? Is that what that means? I first started whipping myself, but like with my jump rope, because I, I love to jump rope. And when you accidentally do hit yourself, oh, it smarts, like you won't believe.

[00:22:56] So I started to do that intentionally, but to an absolutely, like, I mean, to the point where I'm bleeding, um, on my legs over it, like very severe. And then I did start cutting and then, but I was very secretive about it in the sense that I did not want to tell my therapist what I was doing, you know? Oh, you also have a daughter who might see some stuff. Yes, exactly. Um, and so, uh, then she mentioned burning. She was like, well, some people, and I thought, I have never thought of that before. Well, your therapist planted that idea.

[00:23:26] I mean, I understand the like intellectually, like, you know, I get it, but no, yes, I, I, I start, that is the most, that's the, that is the biggest one for me. I have burned so severely, like that they like have to refer me to a burn clinic. And then they're like, we need you to get a skin graft. I'm like, nah, I'm okay. So you have some scars? Oh, I have massive scars. Massive. All over. Didn't you hide them or you don't bother or you can't? The burn scars on my leg. I don't, I don't worry on hiding them anymore.

[00:23:56] It's, I don't think people notice. Oh, I remember one time I went into the market and I had, my legs were whipped up like you wouldn't believe. And this man turned to me and he was like, oh, what happened to you? And I, I said, I got caught not minding my own business, but I learned my lesson. Have you learned yours? I just decided at that moment, like I don't need to make any excuses for my body. You know what I mean? Like, because I do try to hide it and cover it in places that no one will see, but it does

[00:24:24] spill out when you run out of real estate. Right. So I have a question on that and then I want to get back to that phone call slash hanging. You're only speaking for yourself and you're not a doctor. I'm not asking you to play doctor. For people that have no clue why a human being would harm themselves to that degree, what would you say? Like, is it answerable? Yeah. So I don't quite know how it started because I have a such a different relationship to it now that it is OCD related.

[00:24:52] I think, so I'm also a lifelong endurance athlete, like ultramarathon or like all of that. So for me, pain, I don't experience, I feel like I don't experience pain. So that's part of it. I have a very high pain threshold of tolerance. And also it's, I'm already in a state of dissociation when that happens. That's probably the key, the two, and I'm so dysregulated. I'm stuck in that loop, right? The OCD loop. And I'm so dysregulated that, I mean, pain is nothing.

[00:25:21] I mean, I had to, the first time I did the burning to that level of severity, like I had black chard flesh skin. It was, it was really, really bad. There's two things that come to mind. And I've learned some stuff from people on the podcast, but I don't read about this or research this. Just intuitively, I would think people harm themselves, one, because it's a relief of some kind and, or they are punishing themselves in some way. I know.

[00:25:48] You're saying you have a very high pain threshold, which means you probably have to do things harder and deeper to feel it because of that high threshold. But the original question, I'm not sure you answered, which was why. Why? Not why you started doing it. Why did you, why do you do it? Or why did you do it? If you know. The best, the closest I've gotten right now. So I also have, I have a lot of the OCD subtypes because OCD will hook into whatever it can. So one of them is like completing the pattern or not just right.

[00:26:17] Oh, a lot of it too is I need to perform, right? And that's an immediate regulator so that I can perform. I don't have time to sit around and like think or feel my emotions or journal or whatever. I've got so much stuff to do. And if I do this, immediately I'm in performance mode. Discovering that, like this great trick or tip, right? Is I hate that I kept doing it. And my first therapist was like, this is like, I felt like she made a big deal out of it. And I didn't think it was that big of a deal.

[00:26:45] She was right, both because there's severity and how it escalates. And after I hung myself, I was like, what the heck? You know, what happened? Like, how does this happen? Reading and learning a lot. And, you know, a lot of it too is just that state of heightened arousal, hyper arousal with the OCD thought loop. I have like command oriented OCD too. So that was part of it was like, I got a thought in my head that was like, you need to hang yourself

[00:27:12] in the closet. And before I can even think like, I'm not going to do that, I'm doing it. And you did. Yes. When you were talking about that, you're on a phone call with a therapist at the time. And she asks a question specifically, which is the choices and the decisions you made, they got you to where you are in this moment, which I'm going to use the word trigger very loosely, but clearly now we don't know. We don't know. Maybe she could have asked another question and you would have still hung yourself.

[00:27:41] Maybe that was what was going to happen that day, but it doesn't sound like it. It sounds like that question did something. And I'm not a psychiatrist or a counselor or anything, but like, what do you, I mean, have you thought, I'm sure you've thought about this, like, because it also sounds like that once it was planted in your head, it was a done deal. So what is it about that question that you think may have led to that command? All of this is your fault. That's what you heard. Yeah. And like, I believed that forever. But then once I had my daughter, I realized, how could that be your fault you were five?

[00:28:11] You know, like, how could that be that your fault you were two? But also this is happening way after that. It is. And I think it's because I really liked her and trusted her. And she's honestly like one of the nicest people I have ever interacted with in my entire life. And I still think on her fondly, but she did hold a lot of damage in my life. She did not help. So, yeah, no, it was a very, it was very damaging. But I don't, I can't dislike her though. She's just a nice person. You're nicer than I am.

[00:28:41] I dislike her and I don't know her. Do you know what's interesting is that if somebody asked me that question, I wouldn't know how to answer it. Number one, I think it's a strange question. I do. Only because it's like, you know, I'm 40 years old or whatever age you happen to be. Like, what? How granular am I getting with this answer? If you were to answer it. I mean, every day, every day you're making a thousand decisions. It's just, I don't know. And I don't know what precipitated the, what was happening in the conversation before she asked that. I'm not here to talk about your relationship with your therapist.

[00:29:10] But nonetheless, she asks that question. You decide to end the phone call. I want to, I want to try to, and if this is all weird or hard or then you just don't have to answer it. All right. So I'm not trying to be too, too graphic, but I want to understand as best I can. People who try to kill themselves. Like that's really a big part of what this is. Because I think other people who are going through it, it helps them in some way sometimes. Right? Yes. Yeah. Or I've been told it does.

[00:29:37] So what does it feel like when you hang up the phone? Let me, let me actually ask a different question. And I want to ask that question. If you can recall how much time goes by before hanging up between hanging up the phone and there being a rope around your neck. Minutes. Minutes. Okay. Yep. I look and I hang the phone up. I go get my jump rope and I go into my closet and, and act. Now I want to know, the other thing is when, if I were in there, but you didn't know I was there. Not that I'm going to be like stalking you.

[00:30:06] I'm just like fly in the wall kind of thing. What do I see? Are you calm? Uh, yes. I'm focused. It sounds almost robotic. Exactly. Command oriented. Now. Yep. How do you know how to tie in the right kind of noose so that it might work? Um, so it's a cable style jump rope. Um, and I, I am, I mean, I'm talented with knots. Like I camp and all that stuff. And I, my dad had, I grew up sailing too. So, um. Got it.

[00:30:35] Do you know how to put, put it together so that it would wrap around your neck and you would hang yourself off of something that would presumably hold you. You have to take these things into account. Seems to happen a lot that for one reason or another, it doesn't hold. I don't know why it did. I don't, again, I didn't think about it at all. I'm, can I, this is going to be the most sensitive question I ask. And the one that, that is, is it's the hardest question I'm going to ask. I think because it comes with what will sound like judgment. And I just want to preface it with saying it's not. You have a daughter. Yes.

[00:31:06] It sounds like from what you've shared, you're very fond of your daughter and she's very fond of you. Very much so. We're very close. And you said that the one thing you always wanted to be was, was a parent, was a mom. The reason I'm asking this question, it's not even really a question. It's more of just like, this shows something that a lay person might look at and say, because I've done this long enough to know how they might judge something. How can you do that? You have a daughter. My mind goes to, oh no, it's just the opposite.

[00:31:36] She loves her daughter. What's actually going on that would tempt somebody to do that because the love for your daughter didn't change. So what is so intense that it essentially overrides that is what really fascinates me. Me too. I wish I could like, um, solve that mechanism because it obviously happened a second time and I, I, I would live every single moment of my life in absolute excruciating pain if

[00:32:05] it meant I could show up for my daughter. Right. So that's my, that's what I just, I hate how I feel like I have no control over it. Huh? You, uh, you pass out, you wake up, you're presumably on the floor and you're bruised. So something's going on when you were unconscious or semi-conscious. A question I sometimes ask is like, what's it like when you try to kill yourself and you wake up? And for some reason, when I asked that question to you, it feels a little bit different than most of the other times.

[00:32:33] And I don't know exactly why, but there's something in the way this all transpired that feels a little different than the person who was planning for six months and then was stockpiling the pills or whatever, whatever else. That's just one example that comes to mind. Does the word impulsive fit here? Absolutely impulsive. Yes. But can I push back and be like, it, it, it was, the action was impulsive, but like. There's the building. I agree with you.

[00:33:01] The action is absolutely impulsive, but the building underneath all of it, um, has been going on since probably the day I was born. Right. Right, right, right. And if I were to ask you at any point before that moment, Jennifer, you're going to try to kill yourself on this date in this year. What would you have said? No, I'm not. Pretty, pretty straightforward. Yeah. Yeah. But you did like, how does that day go? You know, like, because you're, so you're there on the, so you go, okay, so I'm going

[00:33:30] to take it off my neck. Now you don't try again. No. Yeah. You get up, you go on, you got a daughter, you probably got shit. You got to do that. Is it just a day? Um, it was, it was like at the end of the day, like, like at the end of the business day. So like five ish. Right. So I know again, like my memory's not great from that time, but I know I probably put supper on, right. Did supper and, um, cared for my daughter. Right.

[00:33:57] And went to bed and I didn't tell anyone, you know, like I didn't, um, tell my therapist or anyone, um, for over six months I had to hide my, um, you know, like the wound and everything for a really long time. You know, I, I couldn't tell, like my brain felt weird, which is an odd thing to say, but, and I just kept on keeping on, right? Like, you know, she'll be right kind of thing. We know, we know what's coming though.

[00:34:27] Yeah. Um, I do one or the other one that I will say have, so I definitely have seasonal affective disorder. Um, and it was brutal. It was, it was okay when I was in New Zealand. Um, it was brutal in Boston. Yeah. Um, and then I moved to California. It's fine. Like it's, it's annoying. You can definitely feel like different when it's winter, Jennifer. Um, but it's totally manageable. I do notice like a difference, like things are harder.

[00:34:57] I, like, I just want to be out in the sun all the time. But, um, so then I, I think it was maybe during, it was like right at the end of the winter, maybe early spring. And I finally told my therapist, um, cause I was having other intrusive thoughts. Um, and I would ask her, I would say like, cause I literally did not understand. I'd say, why am I having intrusive thoughts about, like, I didn't use the word intrusive thoughts. I would say, I keep thinking that like, I'm going to cut my hands off, you know?

[00:35:24] And I mean, now that I know what they are, I can identify having them as a child, you know, and, um, using counting, um, to alleviate, you know? Um, but I didn't know really. And I, I went a long time without having them. And, you know, my therapist had no idea. She would be like, you're not going to do that. Are you? And then I'd be like, I don't know. Am I? And it's just, um, it is again, if, if you, she did not know I had OCD, I didn't either. It was just feeding the loop.

[00:35:52] And the same thing, like that's all, I've had four therapists over the last like four years. Yeah. None of them. The last one I was like, I think I might have OCD. Um, and she asked a few questions and she was like, I don't, I don't think so. But then I, you know, second time inpatient, they were like, darling, you have so, but you have such severe OCD, you know? And then I was like, oh, um, and I learned a lot about it and I'm like, okay, a lot makes sense now.

[00:36:18] Um, I'm still frustrated with coping with it, but it really, I, you know, I was going to for therapy for help and they were just, um, which apparently is common. I mean, just triggering the OCD and spending a lot of time when you're supposed to say, oh, that's noise, you know, don't pay attention to it. Uh, so it's just like adding fuel to a fire. It was awful. Yeah. There are therapists that I would have recognized that and done things that were helpful. You just got unlucky. You did. You got unlucky.

[00:36:48] Maybe, maybe, maybe that means the majority of them don't know how to handle that. Believe me, I do my show ripping on therapists on this podcast. I'm not here to say that, you know, I think a lot of them suck, but in your case, cause it's the one where I'm talking to you now, did you, I'm just curious when you said I was talking to my therapist and it took me a while to tell her, her, I believe what had happened. Was that the same one who you hung up on? Yeah. You went back to her. Okay. So, wow. Did she be like, why'd you hang up on me? No, I said, um, I don't feel very good.

[00:37:17] I'm going to end the phone call right now. Okay. That was kind of, like, a nice way to hang up on somebody. Um, I guess, I mean, I would never hang up on someone. I don't know. That's interesting. Eventually your therapist finds out. What does she say? Oh, this poor woman. I terrified her. I think like, and I get it. Like it's, um, I'm not a fun client to have. Right. I am very measured and super like, like, um, scheduled and my diet, my exercise, all of that.

[00:37:47] It's regimented because I have OCD, but, um, it's terrifying to, I could see in her side, like to be told, hey, six months ago, I hung myself in the closet and I, after we got off the phone and, um, she is like, uh, not fully licensed. So we have what I think is a perfectly fine conversation. I hang up the phone with her. She apparently calls a supervisor who then calls and sends the cops to my house.

[00:38:15] And this happened over and over again. Can I just do a short PSA? Oh, please. Yes. Public Sean announcement. Oh, that's even better. Yeah. If you're thinking about getting into therapy of any kind, or you're currently a therapist and somebody you're working with tells you whether they were your client or not at the time, but they tried to end their lives and it terrifies you, get the fuck out of the industry. You're doing harm. Quit right now.

[00:38:44] There's a lot of other jobs you can be doing. That's the end of this to this public Sean announcement. Can we continue? Yes. So, because what's weird about that particular thing, I know that their hands are tied sometime with the liability and all that bullshit, but this wasn't happening then. This was six months earlier. How do you justify sending police to someone's door unless they are actively suicidal?

[00:39:08] I think it is also because I was having, again, intrusive thoughts and I would ask her, like, like I said, like, I keep thinking about, and I have chainsaws and axes. I get my own wood. I do all that kind of stuff. So, it's like, I keep thinking about, like, I'm going to cut my hands off, you know? And have you ever seen or read Titus Andronicus? No. That's Shakespeare. And that's in the play.

[00:39:33] I have so many, I have a lot of, like, connections to, like, literary things. Like, you know, in Shakespeare when Portia, Brutus' wife, like, cuts her leg, right? I mean, just things stick in my brain, right? Like, I get sticky and then they don't stop. You know, that's the whole OCD loop. So, I think she was terrified that I was going to cut my hands off. The big distinction, which is frustrating, is that, you know, again, not to, like, to use, these are ego dystonic thoughts.

[00:40:02] I'm distressed by having them. I'm not like, yay, I can't wait to do this, you know? Yeah, yeah. So, I was so confused because I had never experienced that level of distress in so long. Definitely when I was younger that I just, I did not know what to do. And I was, I surrendered. You know, I was like, I can't figure this out. Like, I'm a problem solver and I cannot figure any of this out. I don't know what to do. And that really was harmful for me because I just said yes to everything.

[00:40:32] Like, any of my therapists wanted to do EMDR. I'm like, sure, okay. Oh, that was awful for me. Massive dissociation. Like, just, you know, oh, now we're going to try this. That was awful for me because it's like, you know, it's like going to get treatment and you're not getting the right kind. It's just making it worse, you know? So. When you say you're not a fun client, what do you mean? I have such, like, such a high rate of dysregulation that does not. So, I also have a history of being choked.

[00:41:01] And everyone, when you're, like, dysregulated, they want to do breathing exercises, activities. I can't, like, even talking about it sets me off. So, I'm like, no, I don't want to do that. And they're like, oh, you should exercise. And I'm like, lady, I just ran 10 miles today. Like, I can't literally outrun my problems, you know? Anything that they would ask me to do would fail. And then I'm just constantly failing.

[00:41:25] Also, it's kind of like, for me, it's hard because I don't know how I'm supposed to get well when the people that you go see are, like, profiting off your illness. And I don't mean, like, an individual therapist. And I don't mean, I mean, like, go get paid. Like, I want you to be fairly compensated. I mean the systematic structure. Whatever we want to call it. Healthcare industrial complex or whatever you want to call it. Yeah. Exactly.

[00:41:54] Also, quick PSA number two, and then there's probably no more. Okay? Okay. I promise. There might be a third one, but I don't know. If you're thinking about becoming a therapist or a counselor, or you are one, and one of your goals is fun clients, stop studying. Stop what you're doing. Write an email to your current clients. I can help you with a template. You can modify it as you need it, saying you're going to quit. You don't belong in the field. Leave right now. This PSA is done.

[00:42:23] And to the therapists and counselors who are doing good work or at least really trying to, and that might apply to your therapist. They had good intentions. We don't know for sure. Good on you, mates. But I don't think your story is that terribly uncommon, that they're doing more harm than good. I think I agree. The people that, the four that I had, one was like, I might still file a complaint, and she was formally disciplined and discharged from her job.

[00:42:49] Like, what she did was so, you know, horrible. Even her, I can say kind things on her, too. I, and I think that all of them, despite all the harm that they cause, right, intergenic harm, right, really did mean well. They're not like bad or evil people. Like, they really did mean well. But how can you, how are you supposed to help someone when this entire system is broken and you're participating in it?

[00:43:17] I'm not letting them off the hook that easily. But, okay, intentions matter. It was about six months after your, that attempt number one, where you were talking to your therapist and she calls her supervisor and the cop comes to your door. It's like 2023, I think. And I don't know about anyone else, but I just don't answer my door. I'm a single woman. I live alone with my daughter. Like, the only people that knock on my door are churchies.

[00:43:45] And, you know, like maybe one from the, you know, the UPS man, eh? Like, that's it. So, I just, no, I didn't knock on my door. And then another time I had spoken to her on the phone, I was upset, but I was fine. Like, my version of fine, too. Like, yes, I'm upset, but I ended the call and I washed my face and take my daughter to the library, right? And, again, she spoke with her supervisor. I think it was someone new. I don't know. They sent the cops to my house again.

[00:44:13] This just became like a recurring theme. You don't let them in. They do. They do eventually. They do eventually. Eventually. Yes. Yes, I know. And, like, haul me off, which was awful. Like, one of my big triggers being, like, men with guns, you know? Yeah. And so then I went inpatient. And, again, so the nurse's inpatient, heaps nice. I honestly, it's not a fun place to be. I don't want to go again. I've been twice. It's not helpful. I'm vegan.

[00:44:43] I can't eat anything. So I literally starve for three days. I'm extremely challenging to treat medically because I have a really low resting heart rate. And I have extremely sensitive to medications. Like, I broke out in a rash with one. I developed akathisia with anybody who's awful. But they can't just keep you locked up. And I have no intent, you know? So I go there and then they spit you back out in three days a list.

[00:45:10] But I would gladly spend three days inpatient than to spend one hour with an outpatient therapist. Like, if someone was like, these are your two choices, I'd be like, no worries. I'll just do my three days and be done. That's very telling. Three days starving, by the way. So were both of those inpatient involuntary? Yeah. And the second one, they, like, my therapist was so, because I explained to her, this is a different one, but I explained to her, you know, let's just be real honest about if you were to call on me and send me in.

[00:45:40] I said, do you not think that I can be perfectly polite and sit there and do as I'm told for 72 hours? Of course I can. I did it for 18 years at home. You think I can't do it for 72 hours? So I thought we were on the same page, you know? But no, we were not. So she upgraded it to a 52-50. But I'm bright and I know I have rights and I know I was going to get a lawyer and all that stuff. So they rescinded it because they knew that they could not keep me.

[00:46:08] They sent me out before the three days were over. I mean, what's keeping there longer if it doesn't do anything? It's mostly just liability. And they don't have any... It's not mostly. It's all liability. Okay. And then they don't have anywhere, like, to discharge me to because I live so rarely. There's no additional care or treatment. I mean, there's just... There's nothing. A few years ago was attempt number one. You remain in therapy. You're changing therapists.

[00:46:34] At some point you get diagnosed with OCD, which starts to give you some answers. You knew that you had PTSD at that point. What happens 18 months ago? Was with, like, the last therapist. I had seen. Just life was extremely stressful. And this is before I get the OCD diagnosis. And I'm going to therapy and it's making it worse. And I actually had an unsafe living situation at home. So I was trying to figure out how...

[00:47:02] Where can I be or go or, you know, all of that. Everything was just getting so much worse. And so I... We have this... It's called Poonamu. It's, you know, a greenstone in New Zealand that, like... You know, it's Taupu. It's sacred. You give it to... It should be gifted to someone. And I... The one that I had was from my aunt. It had broken a long time ago. And when it breaks, you are supposed to release it back into the river because it should be blessed in the river. And I don't know why I kept it for so long.

[00:47:31] And I realized that I wanted to release this into the river. And I live beside, like, one of the deadliest rivers in the nation. Like, people die here every year going in the river. I went to the river and I sat in the river and I released it. And I realized that I stayed in the river for so long, I was completely numb. And I was like, oh, I have to just let go right now. Right? And, like, this will carry me away. Do you think... Are people typically drowning?

[00:48:01] Or are they... Yeah. Or are they, like, hit their head on a rock also? It's everything. Yeah. It's... I mean, it's usually... There are certain places that are known for being the worst. Right? But they're getting swept away because the rapids are so intense. They slip on a rock and they can't stand up. Like, I think it was a few summers back, like, four professional raft guides died in the river. It's just so dangerous. A lot of it, too, is, like, they don't actually know how to swim. They're not wearing life jackets. They're wearing, like, jeans and they're drinking alcohol. Like, they're making the trifecta of bad choices.

[00:48:31] Right, right, right. I mean, it works out well that day. It's a fun day, for sure. It's amazing. I love it. It's gorgeous. Right, right, right. But it's just... But this is a different story. So, when you say you're sitting there, like, you're sitting kind of towards the edge. I'm sitting literally in the river and it's ice cold. It does not matter really what time of year it is. I cannot feel anything from my waist down. And I... That was not my... Again, that was not my intention. Uh-huh. I just went to go release this punamu.

[00:49:00] And again, my brain is like, you should sit down in the river. And I do. And then it's like, you should stay here till you can't feel your legs. And I do. And then it's like, you should just scoot your butt off this rock. At that point, even if you wanted to try to live, it might be too late. Absolutely. And I actually, like, a few summers ago, I actually saved someone from the river. And my daughter was so cross with me because, again, I was not thinking. People are, like, running to the shore and they're like, this man's on the river. This man's on the river. But they're not doing anything.

[00:49:30] And I'm like, oh, my God. So, I just throw off my dandles, dive in with my clothes on, swim down, get to him. And then at that point, some folks had walked down the riverbed. And so, I got to, like, push him towards a rock and push him up on the rock. And they pulled him up and got him out. So, and I come back. I'm soaking wet. I'm at the park, you know, walk back. I have to walk back up river. My daughter is there and she was so cross with me because she's like, can you not do that? Why cross?

[00:49:59] Well, because it's, I mean, she knows how deadly the river is. Um, and like, like, why would you jump in the river? Like, you know, like, don't do that. Yeah. I was just sitting there wanting to scooch my butt off that rock. And my brain is telling me to do it. I think, like, I had my phone was kind of handy. I could still, like, reach over and grab my phone. And so, I reached over and grabbed my phone. It was, like, Googling, like, mad. Like, why am I trying to kill myself? You know what I mean? Google has no idea.

[00:50:24] But it was enough for me to get out of the command loop. And to be in the, like, what, why am I doing this? I don't know how or why that happened. And then it took me a while to literally pull myself out of the river. And it took me, like, a while to be able to, like, stand, to be able to walk back home. I mean, you could have chosen to not die but still die. Exactly. Every single time.

[00:50:53] So, I all have intrusive thoughts that are deeply disturbing. Like, a friend shared with me that her father completed suicide with a firearm. I will have intrusive thoughts about firearms in regards to that. But I have no fear that I will, like, I've never owned one. I will never touch one. It's so, like, it's terrifying to me. So, it's distressing. But it's not going to happen. And the same is not true with other intrusive thoughts I have in regards to self-harm or, like, hanging or anything.

[00:51:23] It's like, my brain is like, well, are you going to do that? You know, like, the checking over and over again. And then that just increases the distress. And I can't out-logic my way, you know, of OCD. It's just too strong. You know, and, like, I had, after the akathisia, I had an issue where I could no longer eat solid food. Like, the OCD hooked into that for some reason.

[00:51:47] And I could not even, like, put, like, one pearl of couscous in my mouth to try to taste if it was done when I'm cooking for my daughter. I would go three days without eating. And I'd try to eat something small. And then I'd go six days without eating. And I just lost so much weight. I lost all my muscle. I'm still not anywhere near back where I should be. And then, yeah, it just hooks. It'll find, and I tried to get cute with it. I said, oh, that's all right. I'll just make my own veg broth.

[00:52:13] And I'll boil up all the good stuff and, you know, give me something to do. And all the vitamins and minerals, I'll still be getting that. And so I did that for a while. And then I just realized I had all these rules about that now. And, like, I just have to completely surrender and be like, you win OCD. Like, I will never beat you. Like, I don't know how. So after the river situation, you still don't know you have OCD then? No. But you went to a hospital and they diagnosed you with OCD?

[00:52:42] I got my second therapist called on me to send me inpatient. So you told your therapist about what happened in the river? Nope. So how did she know that you were in imminent danger? She was forever asking me about suicide, mate. And you were just, like, honest one day. Yeah. It's the same reason why, like, I can't call. Like, they would be like, oh, call the suicide hotliner. You know, call 988. I have severe. So I have, again, I have such severe OCD that's like, oh, have you thought about harming yourself?

[00:53:12] And you're like, well, I am now. Like, you know, it's introducing the thought. And she's like, well, what would you do then? How would you, like, do you have a plan? And I'm like, no. And they're like, well, I probably would hang myself like last time. I don't know. With your kind of OCD, having the open, honest conversation can actually be problematic. It definitely can because I get stuck in that thought loop.

[00:53:35] And it's interesting because, like, I find the podcast, first of all, it was so helpful because it actually linked me to another podcast. It was about OCD. And I didn't have the type of OCD that this person had. But it was the first time I was like, oh, my God, that's so clearly what I have. I'm quite cross that it was missed, you know, for so long. It's so easy just to give the screener, just give the OCD screener.

[00:54:02] Like, they want to give all the screeners for anxiety and depression, which, again, are really triggering for me. But then they didn't want to give that one. I don't, I think, honestly, and again, it could be paranoid about this. But it's because they did not have a therapist at all in anywhere near that could treat me. That just makes me think if you want to have a conversation with somebody in pain, get as clear as you can on how you want that conversation to be and let that person guide it if they can.

[00:54:29] The standard at one point was don't talk about it. Then it became now it's just like just talk about it. Let's train you and reduce your fear and asking if somebody's suicidal. It's OK. But we have another twist to it. It's like, yes, and give them agency in how that conversation might look or feel because what is helpful for one person is not for another.

[00:54:52] But this is the art of conversation and awareness and being truly open about things that a lot of people either lack or don't care to learn. I mean, the biggest thing, I think, is just attunement. Yeah. And it's hard to be attuned when you're worried about your liability. If you're my friend, I'm not worried about liability. Exactly. And there's such a power dynamic that is never really discussed. There are groups and warm lines that don't practice this bullshit. Not many, though.

[00:55:22] Yeah. The other one, too, is when I'm in a state of severe distress, I cannot handle hearing or speaking to a man's voice. If I were to call and it's some guy, I'm like, I need to talk to a woman. And they're like, no, we don't do that here. Like, you can hang up and try to call again. I don't, I'm really careful not to, like, be unkind or unfair about therapists or warm line or especially the volunteers, right? And everyone has a unique experience.

[00:55:46] It's been so harmful for me that I kind of want to know, like, is it me? Like, or, you know, like, that was part of it, you know? I mean, you're the common denominator, but I have this asshole question and I'm going to ask you. You're so fucking kind. And all I was thinking was, like, how's that working out for you with these people? Because it doesn't seem to be fucking working, Jennifer. Your kindness is by and large a lovely quality that people, including you, have.

[00:56:13] But unfortunately, I think it hurts people in certain scenarios. That is unfair. Fair, but you're playing in a different game with this stuff, right? I know. I have, like, I call it, like, two modes. So, like, this is me, right? This is Kiwi Jennifer. This is me, California Jennifer. But I do, because I did go to uni in Boston and I lived there for seven years. I worked after. I can go East Coast Jennifer, too. I haven't met her yet.

[00:56:39] Oh, she, I do not like to let her come out because, you know, I end up saying things that I wish I could put back in my mouth. Why do I want to hear her? Like, okay, so one time I went in and it was, I was getting an intake for something. My therapist, whatever, wanted me to do. I forget exactly the story. But the person, I had such a strong dislike to the person I was interacting with. She kind of hit all my buttons.

[00:57:06] And when I walked out of there, I said something like, and my daughter was actually with me. Like, we had met up. And she was, oh, mom had that go. And I said, this is going to show my ugly, so I'll just go ahead and wear it. I can't believe they want me to see someone with a University of Phoenix degree in a lukewarm IQ. Ripping on them because of the degree is a little bit of a blow. It's super pretentious. I hate it. But because, you know, there's probably University of Phoenix graduates who are very good at what they do.

[00:57:36] But, like, but the point was, what was the second part? Because I like that. A lukewarm what? A lukewarm IQ. A lukewarm IQ. That's gold. Well, so East Coast Jennifer came out in the market when that guy asked you about your response. Oh, yes. That's another example. Yes. Yeah. So you push Jennifer enough. And you're sharp-tongued about it, too. You're good at it. You're smart. And it's uncomfortable because that's like, there's no recovering after that. No. I'm a one and done kind of person. Yep. Bridge burned. Done.

[00:58:06] I will give endlessly. But once that comes to the end, then that's it. Like, you're dead to me. You know? Damn. The time limit of everything doesn't matter. I know a few years ago was attempt one. A year and a half ago was the river attempt two. Near attempt, we could call it, or an attempt. What do you think? I mean, that's the thing that's hard for me because, like, when you don't have intent. You need a new word. Perhaps. Yeah. But had any of those succeeded, they would say she completed suicide. For sure. For sure. Yeah.

[00:58:35] That's what would be in the report. The exact timeline doesn't matter. But throughout this time, you get some visits from cops. You have several different therapists. You get diagnosed with OCD. You don't try again. So then when I was discharged, I instantly stopped going to therapy because that's a wrap. I, again, I come home and I'm having massive side effects from the medication because I'm so sensitive.

[00:59:02] So then I just, no therapy, no medication. Things got better for a long while, actually. As soon as I stopped therapy, it took me a little bit, but I completely stopped self-harming. I used to do it multiple times a day, every day. I stopped going to therapy. I completely stopped self-harming. I mean, you just remove the bad thing that's happening and your life automatically gets better. You know? You're able to deduce, at a minimum, there's correlation, if not causation, that by stopping

[00:59:30] this particular therapy, you stop cutting. Self-harming. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Oh, wow. It's mostly burning for me, but I do sometimes still cut. Yeah. You know as you say some of these words, I'm thinking about a memoir title, right? You are aware of that. Yeah. Go ahead. Give me a bit of time. No, no, no, no, no. I'm not there yet. If I were, I would be blurting out of my mouth with excitement. So at some point, so it gets better.

[00:59:55] And then, and this is interesting, is you're looking for something around suicide on a podcast or on Google or some platform. Why? When I first listened, it was right after my first attempt, when I first started Googling. Yeah. Yeah. I had no one to talk to on it and I started obsessively listening. Wow. Like it was the only thing I listened to. It must be my voice. No, you have a pleasant voice.

[01:00:24] I like it very much. I'm just kidding. You, what you probably, I'm assuming you just were connected to the people sharing their stories. One of my favorite, you know, Stoics is Marcus Aurelius, right? And he says like, you know, the paraphrase of it from one of his meditations quote is like, the fabric of your life is dyed by the color of your thoughts. Right? And I'm thinking like, maybe this isn't so good to be putting this into your brain all the time, Jennifer. You know what I mean? Like, maybe this is your new obsession. Maybe it's not actually, which I didn't know that at the time.

[01:00:53] So maybe, are you saying that maybe the podcast wasn't helping? Yes. Yeah, I know. And I'm sure that's real for people that that's an interesting space to be in. And again, because I was just binging all the episodes. So I stopped listening to it for a while. And also too, like, some of them are so heartbreaking, like, and then also some of them are so, it was impossible for me to relate.

[01:01:22] So it took me some time to find, I can't relate to any of the men ones, unfortunately. I don't listen to them anymore. I took a break from it. And then it was around when I was having intensive, intrusive thoughts again, where I started listening again to it. And then it was that same thing of like, is this good for me or not? Like, I didn't know because sometimes I'd hear some of them and feel like, oh gosh, like, I'm not so alone. But it would often take a lot to get through where I'd be like, this is so foreign from

[01:01:52] my experience and that I would feel more alone, you know? Right, right, right. But the ones I've listened to most recently, I've listened to quite a few most recently and they were so helpful. It gave me some space to not feel alone, really. And I really just admired like the courage that it took for people to share and the humility of being like, I have no idea.

[01:02:19] It made me just feel like I'm not the only one, right? You said that it had gotten better after you stopped going to therapy and you stopped cutting. The way it was said or framed or your tone suggests that it's now not as it was. Then I had another traumatic event happen that it's quite the story, but it's not the podcast for it either.

[01:02:42] And it really just threw me into this like hyper arousal state that I could not come down from. The intrusive thoughts started returning. I went to my, but I definitely was not going to therapy again. Like I learned my lesson about asking for help, you know? So I definitely wasn't going to therapy again. And I definitely, I tried to find a doctor, but I couldn't because of where I live and all that. So I went to a primary care doctor.

[01:03:12] She was newer to me. Um, the one I had previously was so amazing. I, I miss her dearly. Um, I said like, Hey, I have OCD. And, um, she went through the whole list of medications. I had, I had tried and she goes, Oh gosh, yeah, you've tried just about everything. And she said, Oh, well, there's this one here that's specifically for OCD. Let's try that. And, um, the side effects are brutal, but it was the first time in my entire life.

[01:03:40] I noticed that there was space between the intrusive thoughts and me being able to recognize and label them like, Oh, these are intrusive thoughts. Um, it was the first time I, like one day I was running late and I didn't make my bed. I thought about it the entire time I was gone from the house. It ruled my brain, but I was able to not do it. And I came home and my daughter commented, she was like, mom, that is the first time I've ever seen your bed not made because I'm up early and out before she's up.

[01:04:09] And the same thing, like my daughter would say, Hey, do you want to play a game? And I would normally respond with yes, but I need to do the dishes first. Right. Or I can't leave dishes in my sink. And it was the first time when I looked over at the sink and I had like five plates and I was like, okay, yeah, like I will play the game with you right now. I can wash the plates later, you know, but the side effects were really hard to deal with. And then I developed akathisia. It's a move.

[01:04:35] It comes from, um, taking like Sarah, if you're really sensitive to serotonin, which apparently I am, um, even though I was on like a dose lower than they give children, uh, it's a muscle. It's intense, intrusive, dark, disturbing thoughts, which I already have, but to a worse degree. But honestly, that didn't bother me because that's my ordinary. It's muscle movement and muscle disorders. You can't control your body. So it's like constant shrugging and like, like bending in the half.

[01:05:04] Um, and you have to go get like beta blockers to stop it. And I went to the ER and I tried to explain like, Hey, this is this medication that my doctor had me take. Like, and I'm experiencing this and they, the ER is so crowded because I live in the middle of nowhere. And they were like, and I was very clear about being like, I'm safe. Like, I know this is the medication. Like I'm having awful thoughts, but I know it's the medication. Um, and they were like, if you can go home and come back tomorrow, that would be great.

[01:05:33] And my friend who drove me, she was like, no, no, no, no. She's needs to be seen tonight. And they're like, okay, come back in like three or four hours. So we went back in like three or four hours and it was like a new, new, um, ER staff. And I'm trying to explain to them while I'm basically having like, it's like a mix between like a, like Tourette's tics and seizure almost while I'm trying to explain to them what's happening. And they just think I'm on drugs. They think I'm like on meth or something.

[01:06:01] I've like, I've never done, I've smoked weed and that is the only drug I've ever done in my entire life, which has never appealed to me. I just have no interest in it. They like trying to get me to go back into this curtain room and there's all of this men there and there's no female doctors at all. And I was just like, I can't do that. I can't do that. And they're like, fine, you're done then. Goodbye. And so I just walked out and went home. And then I had my friend watch my daughter overnight and I just spent the next like 48 hours

[01:06:29] going through the waves of akathisia. It comes in waves and it lasts 20 to 60 minutes and then it goes away for a while and it comes again. I would still feel it internally a week later, even though I wasn't outwardly moving awkwardly again. I would feel it internally like activation, you know? So then I stopped completely, never went back to that. I had a not good experience with that primary care doctor after that.

[01:06:57] Like I had mentioned, of course, she does all that suicide asking questions. And I was like, hey, this is not good for my OCD kind of thing and explained. And she was like, well, I have to assign you to get released against medical advice. And I was like, why? Like I'm, again, it's just a liability thing. And I thought, well, I can never see you again, you know? A hundred percent. Yeah. Yeah. But there's no one else for me to see here. And so like I haven't got my B12 shots in forever.

[01:07:25] And I'm forever hoping that there's some thing that will make my brain different. And for the longest time, I did not want to take medications. And then also I have such extreme side effects to them. But boy, now, like again, I've just surrendered. Like I can't out willpower OCD. It wins every time. You know, like I just can't do it. So are you on meds now? I'm waiting for them.

[01:07:53] I made in February, I called and made an appointment to go see someone with Zoom, of course. And I just saw them last week. Oh, jeez. That's how long it takes. Yeah. But is it the same med that has the side effects but does help the OCD? No, I haven't gotten it yet. So I had to actually go stay up with a friend because I was in such a dysregulated state. And I was so scared. Like I might harm myself, right?

[01:08:22] First of all, I also realized like I would try to manage the thoughts and compulsions with the compulsion of burning and everything. And that gets so severe so quickly. So I was like, I'm going to go stay up with my friend and his cabin. You know, my daughter and my dog all came. And so we were there for a week. And it was great. I had such a good time and had my appointment via Zoom. So it was like last Friday. And so I'm waiting for the meds to come in. And I think they're delayed because there's a fire.

[01:08:50] And there's not only one way to get in and out of the valley. So it probably will be a bit longer. Why did you stop taking the meds that were working, even though they had the side effects? Because it's other akathisia. Okay. Okay. You made that clear. Well, how did we know these meds are any better? Oh, I have no idea. It's a combination. Like they're trying different combinations of medications because like nothing works for me. So for me, I have with PTSD, I have a lot of flashbacks and nightmares.

[01:09:18] And then I'm dysregulated the entire day because, you know, what I experienced. And all of those drugs that they give for that, they lower your heart rate. And my heart rate is already low. So it lowers it even more. And then I have a rebound effect where it's like pounding in my chest and pounding in my ears. And that's not good for anxiety nor sleep. So you're hard to, you are, let's, let's, let's fairly label you treatment resistant. Yeah. Are you suicidal right now?

[01:09:46] So that's where I'm always like, how do I answer that question? Because I very much want to live. I feel like I have no control over it. I feel like I'm hanging on by my fingernails and white knuckling it for one more day and one more day. And I feel like I've been there for months. And I'm at such a complete level of emotional exhaustion. Like I function, you know, I feed my daughter, I walk my dog, all of that. But it is constant torture in my head. Does your daughter know the depth of her mother's pain?

[01:10:15] I think she is honestly the only one that knows. You talk about it with her? I try to explain things so that she knows it has nothing to do with her and it's never her fault. Again, with the OCD hook, she did this one thing where I was like, oh my gosh, all of that veggie broth that I spent hours making that is literally my only source of food, I have to throw it away because it's contaminated now. And I had to explain to her like, this is my OCD brain. It's not normal.

[01:10:42] You know that I'm the kind of person that like loves to camp and get dirty and something falls on the ground, I brush it off and eat it again. Like no big deal. I have to, because she'll be like, oh my God, I'm so sorry. I didn't mean to do that. You know, and I'm like, no, no, no, no. This is like, you know, OCD brain doing OCD brain things. I have such severe triggers with PTSD, like the fire is not near me right now, but there was one not that far ago.

[01:11:04] And I was in such a state of like, you know, like physical and emotional dysregulation that the sound and the feel of the helicopters, I'd like pee my pants over it. Like, or just someone would knock on the door, I'd pee my pants. Like it's, it's, I have no control over my body in the way most people do. Yeah. So she sees those things. I wish I could hide them from her, but I'm also not really afforded that being like a single mom. I have no family, you know, nearby, nor will we close. Like, yeah.

[01:11:32] And like, I have loving friends, but I'm the one that does everything in the friend group, you know, like they're all quite a bit older than me too. But I'm the one that they call in crisis. I'm the one that like hosts parties and cooks food. And I think it's a mix of like, you know, I, of course I enjoy those things. Um, but I did realize that like, I more recently started to try to get some type of support, mostly from my daughter. Like, gosh, doesn't you be stuck with me all day? Like she'd benefit from doing something, you know, it was like crickets.

[01:12:01] Like everyone, I'm the person that watches everyone's dogs and like, you know, cook, like does everything. And everyone just was gone. Um, I have one, one person who, you know, is just golds to me and, um, I know he will always be there, but everyone else just kind of fell by the wayside. Other than your daughter, of course. I had all this stress, um, you know, about like, how can I give my daughter something I don't have? How can I teach her things I have not yet learned myself?

[01:12:28] Um, especially like I have, I have, I'm not a very good judge of character. I hate to say that, but, um, I miss a lot of the red flags that other people would pick up on. I tolerate more than others would. I would want people to approach me with the same generosity of spirit, but my daughter doesn't have it. She's like the most confident teenager ever. Um, and you know, she told me, she was said like, mom, those aren't your friends. Yeah.

[01:12:56] And I realized that I was like mourning or missing something I thought I had, but never really did. So I'm not really losing anything. I just felt like I was. Yeah. Hmm. Fine line. Yes. How many people know we're talking? My daughter, one. Oh, she does? What'd you say? Oh, she doesn't know. I said, um, I said, I'm going to do this podcast. And she was like, what? Really? And I said, yeah. She's like, what's it about? So that's about mental health stuff. And that was it. That was the extent of our conversation. Mental health stuff is not suicide. I mean, it is, but you know what I mean?

[01:13:25] No, it's not. We've talked about it like in a, I'm just explaining what it is and why, like why it would happen and, and the like, you know, thoughts about that, but never me personally. How many people know about either attempt and don't include doctors, nurses, none of those people. Those are people who just happen to know because that's their job. Probably like four or so. How many people do you have to have open and honest conversations with about this? Probably no one. Yeah. That kind of sucks.

[01:13:55] Well, we're having that conversation right now, which is, um, I'm so grateful for it. I'm going to have a better day because we had this conversation. So I hope you will. Yeah. It'll help my day too. Um, but I'm not in your life every day. No, no. And trust me, you want it that way. Trust me. I'm not a peach either, mate. Yeah. Yeah. Um, do you ever wish that either of those attempts had worked? I want to say no, but part of me thinks yes, which I kind of can't explain.

[01:14:24] I mean, if you say you're white knuckling it every day, it kind of does make sense. Myths and misconceptions. Any big ones stand out to you? We've talked about some of them because they come up, but anything that we didn't talk about that you want to dispel or call bullshit on? I think therapists should be really unaware of how much harm they can actually cause, even when they don't mean it. I think that this is not often on the forefront. Even when they don't mean it. PSA number three. I said there might be a three.

[01:14:49] If you're a therapist or a counselor in training or currently active and practicing and you mean harm, you're a criminal. Go to the local police station and turn yourself in. That's the end of that PSA. That's the final one of this episode. Fair? Yes. Jennifer did not ask me to do the PSA. She may not agree with them. It's just a moment in which I have to say something very clearly to people that mostly already get it because I have a very, you know, my audience is my audience and they're like not listening if they disagree with everything I say. They're like, well, I don't want to listen to this schmuck.

[01:15:20] Pink and purple pill. You probably know what it does, but for our audience who might be new, it's a fictional pill that if I give Jennifer and she chooses to ingest, will allow her to go to sleep peacefully with no pain. She's not waking up and nobody knows it's a suicide. Mid-May, 2026. What do you do with it? I could not take that pill because I would live in fear of using it and I don't want to do that.

[01:15:45] So it's like, no, it's not a safe thing for me to have the same way I have to lock things up or not use my chainsaw on one day or I can't trust my brain that I wouldn't take it even though I don't want it. Right. I mean, when you're talking about your brain and the commands that, you know, yeah, I'm grateful for you that you figured it out because at some point one of those commands would have killed you. Yeah. I don't feel like I figured it out yet. Right. Well, you know that you have, you're aware that you have OCD. You're aware that there are commands.

[01:16:16] You may not always know when they're happening that it's happening. Absolutely. And for me, it's like the interaction of the OCD and the PTSD triggers, just I get stuck in that thought loop. And so now I don't, I have a hard time getting out, but at least I know I'm stuck in the thought loop. It doesn't control whether or not I will hide myself or will attempt, but at least I know it. And now we come to the biggest question. Didn't that more title? Oh, yes. Gosh, yes, please.

[01:16:43] You thought it was going to be something so profound and no, no, no. And it is not something I'm offering. It's a collaborative effort here today with you, Jennifer. Have you ever thought about writing a memoir? No, because like your life's just your life. But whenever I like tell people some stories, they're like, oh my gosh, I can't believe that happened. You've got to write a book or something. No, I'm just, I'm a private person. Like the fact I'm doing this is like quite a leap. Indeed. Yeah. Your life's just your life ain't bad, by the way.

[01:17:11] You said some things that are memoir title worthy material, things like share the ugly or hooked. This thing about the OCD hooking, hooking you or hooking in or hooked in on. These are all words that could potentially make the final cut, but I'm not there. Yeah. I don't know yet either. So I'd also love, so in New Zealand, then, you know, we've got three national languages, English, New Zealand Sign Language and Toreo Maori.

[01:17:40] I would love for it to actually be in Toreo because there's concepts that don't translate well. Wow. This is 100% maybe the best memoir title ever. Just say it in that language and tell me how to say the word suicide in that language, please. Oh, I don't know. I don't know. I'd have to, I'm not fluent. I've been trying to learn more. It's hard when you're not there and my family did not like promote that at all, but I'm

[01:18:05] trying with my daughter and I like using it when there's like words that don't exist in the other one. You know? Right. 100%. So, so what we know is it would be in that language, say the name of the language again? Toreo. Toreo Maori. Anything else you want to share before we get back to our days? You are probably in late morning there. I'm around noon here. No, just thank you so much for hosting me. And this has been a nice break from my brain.

[01:18:34] That's another good memoir title possibility right there. A nice break from my brain. Yeah. They're out there, Jennifer. They're floating around. We just got to hook into one of them and boom, and then commit. What's the rest of your day like? I think you have a long day ahead of you. I know there's fires. What else are you going to be dealing with? Well, my daughter just finished school. I homeschool her, and we just finished on Monday turning everything in. So today is our first real true day off.

[01:19:02] So probably going to, well, I know I'm going to help a neighbor. I'm going to go pick up hay for a horse. So we're going to do that later, and I'm looking forward to spending time with the horse. It's always relaxing. And then I'll probably play some games with my daughter and hike the dog and make supper and keep on keeping on, eh? Not the worst day. No, it's not, which is what also is why it's so horrifically painful when you actually have a lovely life and you're not able to enjoy it.

[01:19:33] Because you know it, and you're living it, and you can see it, but your brain's just getting in your fucking way all the time. And like, you know when you're spending time with someone and they're so irritable or like a dip downer, and you're just like, man, like I just don't, it's suck my energy. I don't want to be around that person. That's like my brain, but I can't take it off. You know, like I can't tell it to shut up. I can't like, you know, like get any space from it. So it's just like living with an annoying roommate all the bloody time.

[01:20:02] Well, I hope today is nice. It will be better. Yes, it will. It has to be right. Yeah, I mean, we had a good conversation. It sounds like you got some decent stuff planned. And maybe one day in the future, a year perhaps or more, we will do an update episode. You hear about what's going on in your life then. Maybe this new med helps. Maybe not. Fingers crossed. Yes. Fingers crossed. Yeah. All right. I'm going to go. Enjoy your day. I appreciate the time you're talking with me very, very much. Thanks so much. Appreciate you too. Thanks, Sean. Cheers, mate.

[01:20:32] Bye. And that is all for this week's episode. Stay strong. Do the best you can. I'll talk to you soon. Bye.