Holly in England 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿

[00:00:00] If I'm really upset, I'm really emotional, which as I said doesn't happen very often. That's kind of like it's shit, but it's okay. It's not danger to territory. It's when I get to the point where I'm like, I don't care about anyone or anything.

[00:00:12] Couldn't care less about any impact at all. I can't stand this and this is what I need to do. That is when I'm more likely to try and do something. Hey there, my name is Sean and this is Suicide Noted.

[00:00:46] On this podcast, I talk with suicide attempt survivors so that we could hear their stories. Every year around the world, millions of people try to take their own lives and we almost never talk about it. We certainly don't talk about it enough.

[00:00:57] And when we do talk about it, many of us, including me, we're not very good at it. So one of my goals with this podcast, since we started in summer of 2020 and now as we enter 2024,

[00:01:07] is to have more conversations and hopefully better conversations with attempt survivors so that in large part, more people in more places can feel a little less shitty and a little less alone. Now, if you are a suicide attempt survivor and you'd like to talk, please reach out.

[00:01:22] Hello at SuicideNoted.com, on Facebook or Twitter at Suicide Noted. A giant thanks to everybody who's joined me here this year and all those years and to all of you who listen. I really do appreciate it.

[00:01:32] Check the show notes to learn about some other cool shit related to the podcast, including our membership. We would love your support, that kind of support, if you have the means. Finally, we are talking about suicide on this podcast as the title suggests, and we don't hold back.

[00:01:46] So please take that into account before you listen or as you listen. But I do hope you listen because there is so much to learn. Today, I am talking with Holly. Holly lives across the pond in England and she is a suicide attempt survivor. Hey, Holly.

[00:02:06] Holly in England, right? Yes. What part of England are you in? London. Does the word posh mean anything to you? Yeah. Why does that sound posh? No, I don't know what posh really sounds like. I know that you're not cockney. No, it's weird.

[00:02:21] Like I was asking my friend who lives in California the other day, I said, do I have an accent to you? And she was like, yeah. Do I have an accent? I was like, yeah. Of course. Yeah, we you and I, for example, do not sound alike.

[00:02:35] We do not. No. Before we get into all the suicide stuff, there are a few other important things I want to share. Yeah. The first one is thank you for reaching out and talking with me. Sure.

[00:02:46] The second is I want to know what, if any, soccer or football club you support. I'm afraid none. Holly. Yes. What kind of doctor are you? I'm a clinical psychologist. Oh, now it's getting interesting.

[00:02:58] Let us start with the question of why is that how you found the podcast and why you wanted to talk about it, presumably to people who will they don't know you. They'll hear your voice. They'll know where you're from.

[00:03:10] Generally, how'd you find it and why you want to talk? So I definitely found it by typing the word suicide into Apple podcasts. It was as simple as that.

[00:03:20] I typed it in in a week where I was having a really rough time and what I was looking for was specifically not a podcast telling me to go for a walk and take a bath, but actually something a bit more real.

[00:03:34] So when I found out, I was like, yes, this is what I want to listen to.

[00:03:37] And to be honest, that week, two week period, I think it was, I listened like to the back catalogue, not all of them, but I was walking my dogs and I was listening to like two, three episodes back to back.

[00:03:49] And I was like, there's something really cathartic about this. Just listening to other people and feeling like it's not just me was yeah, was great. So that's how I found it. And that's why I kind of stuck with it.

[00:04:00] And I've been listening for probably about nine, 10 months now, I think. Okay. So nine or 10 months later, here we are. And again, why do you want to talk with me and have others hear this stuff? Well, there's a selfish reason and there is a bigger reason, I guess.

[00:04:15] So for me, the selfish reason is I've been, well, I've been so ashamed of it for such a long time, for years and years. It was like the most shameful part of me.

[00:04:25] And when it kind of seeped out and people found out about it, or I decided to tell them about it, even when I chose to, I still just felt really icky afterwards. And like, oh, I've overshared. I wish I hadn't said anything kind of thing.

[00:04:37] So for me, this is almost like the final push to be like, you know what? I'm just going to say it to, you know, potentially thousands of people who will never meet me or could know me and you know what is out there, who cares?

[00:04:50] And the other reason is purely because I just think anyone can be suicidal at any time in life and feel alone with it.

[00:04:58] And so I feel like the more we talk about it, the more it might reach that one person that's like, oh shit, it's not just me. That's my other reason. Yeah. And how many people did you tell? How many people know that you're doing this? Three.

[00:05:12] So my three closest friends, I told. And whether or not I'll share it with them is another question. They all know all of this stuff already, but I think sometimes it's a lot to hear it in condensed form. So I might offer it to them. I don't know.

[00:05:27] We'll see. And one of my friends who I shared it with has also had her own experience and she was like, oh, that's really cool. Maybe I'll do it. I was like, yeah, crack on. The England contingent. Yeah. So how many suicide attempts do you have, Holly?

[00:05:42] I don't actually know a fair you some at a very dark time where I think I actually lost count a little bit.

[00:05:50] So there was some that were when I was very young and then a cluster, um, in my twenties where I'm really not sure how many there were. Um, but a few, let's say. Yeah. Do you remember how old you were when you first thought about it? Yeah.

[00:06:06] I think really young. So about 10, something like that. Um, this is a bit strange. I remember when I was really little, kind of five, six ish for some reason on my birthday, every time it was my birthday, I would be, I would wake up really upset.

[00:06:21] And that was kind of like early sort of signs of self harm. I remember like biting my arm as like a way of releasing those emotions and then being like, even as a six year old and then being like, right, done.

[00:06:33] And then going downstairs and kind of getting on with my day. So that was really young. But I reckon from, yeah, about 10 upwards was when I first came into my head and I was thinking, I really want to be here anymore. And I didn't really understand it.

[00:06:45] And I didn't have, I didn't make any steps to do anything about it then. But I certainly remember thinking about it. Yeah. Was there things going on, whether internal or external, right?

[00:06:54] Were there things going on then that now you look back on you like, well, that wasn't great. That kind of thing. Yeah, definitely. So my dad wasn't really around. He left when I was nine months old, I think.

[00:07:07] And I sort of saw him a few times and then that kind of dropped off and I didn't really see him anymore. So I didn't have that relationship. My mum, I think she tried her best, but she had her own struggles, mental health difficulties.

[00:07:21] And essentially, when I look back on it now, especially having had training as a psychologist, I'm like, yeah, you know what? That was an abusive home. But at the time, of course, I did see it like that.

[00:07:32] And I think I became that kind of typical people pleaser, like walking on eggshells, trying to just make everyone happy and calm and okay. And like being this overachieving kid and all of this stuff in an attempt to just make everyone like me.

[00:07:46] But really, I was just struggling even from that early age. And that just kind of snowballed until you add in all the kind of teenage stuff. And I was like, that was an internal, not an external one.

[00:07:57] So it was an implosion which happened all inside and I still kept it all to myself. Now, I mean, we'll get to this, but I'm sure all of this or some of this is not it is not a coincidence that you're chosen profession.

[00:08:12] For sure. It's really funny, actually, when we did our training, there was like 30 of us or something. And I remember sitting down in the first day and looking around the room. This is really judgmental. And I was like, what's wrong with all of you?

[00:08:24] Don't worry, Holly, I do that all the time with everyone always. So what's interesting here, and I always want to be very, very careful because I don't want to lean into anything that sounds weird or judgy.

[00:08:36] Some people go through stuff that sounds kind of similar to what you've gone through, though. Everyone's got unique experiences. Sure. They never try to end their life. And I'm not looking for like an answer here as to the why behind it all necessarily.

[00:08:48] It's more of just an observation. It's interesting. Some people go through this thing. They don't try other people's go through something. They do try. And I don't know the difference and I don't necessarily need to know the difference. We're human and we're just human. Yeah, that's that.

[00:09:00] I know maybe you've studied this kind of thing, perhaps, or spent more time in it than I have. I just think it's fascinating.

[00:09:06] Totally. You could line up 100 people with a very similar experience and everyone's like way of dealing with it or not dealing with it would be totally different. Right. We're all little special snowflakes. Right. Do you think people, by definition, who try to end their lives are mentally ill?

[00:09:23] Oh, this is a really good question, because I know you always ask the myth question and I was like, this is what I want to talk. Yeah. So no, I don't think they are.

[00:09:31] I think some people could have a mental illness diagnosis and for sure try and end their lives. And I think some people would not meet criteria. I'm saying inverted commas as in diagnosable criteria for a mental illness. And they try and end their lives.

[00:09:47] I think some people plan this stuff for days, weeks, months, years. And some people just, you know what, today I'm going to jump in front of a train. Again, we can't really always know the difference between those two groups of people.

[00:09:59] But I think we all exist and I think we're all capable of doing something like this at some point if everything aligns in a really crappy way. Basically, I agree with you. A lot of people don't.

[00:10:12] So as a therapist, I'm wondering, is it similar in England as it is to here with respect to reporting? Do you feel like that's a fair doing more harm or good or is that simply an unfair question? That policy? Again, it's so individual.

[00:10:29] I've been in this situation many, many, many times where someone's come to me and said they're going to end their life illegally. I have to step in and take steps to safeguard them.

[00:10:40] But it's a moral dilemma because, and I will say this quite honestly, I think in some cases when someone is really struggling and has struggled their entire life, who am I to say you can't do that? You can't make that choice for yourself.

[00:10:58] I don't think I should be that person legally. I have to be if I'm being a psychologist. If I'm being a friend, it's a very gray area.

[00:11:06] I don't think there's any right or wrong, but it is really difficult and it's difficult on the side of the therapist sometimes as well. And obviously far worse for the person, far, far, far, far worse.

[00:11:17] But it's hard for us as well, especially when you're someone who's had that experience yourself and you're thinking, God, do I get it? Yes. The moral quandary you raise is like, yes, who are you to say anything?

[00:11:27] But even if we have safeguards in place and they're never going to be perfect, right? Because some people say it and really have no intention of ever doing it. Now there's very much might be doing it that night. It's just the places we go and what's done there.

[00:11:39] That is my real issue. In addition to just the free will component of it, or if that's the right word is if you created spaces that were much more humane, I'd have much less of an issue with it.

[00:11:50] But when you show them when they're and you lock them up and you treat them like shit, that's disgusting. And when we were talking before I hit record, there is a place in England you brought up that is done or it's done very differently. What's that about?

[00:12:04] Yeah, it's an amazing place. It's really small. It's a house. It's a converted house. Um, you can take your pets, which is a huge thing for so many people.

[00:12:13] You know, my beloved pet is my only thing that keeps me going and you're going to lock me in hospital and I haven't got them and I'm worried about them. Like what the heck? Um, but yeah, this place, you can take your pets.

[00:12:22] You have to agree to talk to the people that work there, but there's no, it's not formal therapy. Um, you know, if you've got meds, they'll help you with meds.

[00:12:30] Um, but yeah, it's, it's a house and it's calming place and you could talk, you can do whatever you want to do, have your food cooked for you, but it's not hospital and you're not locked in. You can go see a friend or whatever.

[00:12:41] But the thing is you have to make a choice to go to that place before you're past the point where someone makes a choice to send you to hospital. Right.

[00:12:49] And that's where it's difficult because it's like, that's one place in the whole of London as far as I'm aware. Right, right, right, right.

[00:12:56] So you're 10 when you start to think about it, you're five or six when you start to do things to yourself that now maybe you realize, oh, okay. There was some stuff going on. Yeah.

[00:13:06] I know a lot of the attempts or whether new attempts or near attempts are murky. Do you remember? I think people do tend to remember the first one. Yeah, I did. Yeah. I was 14 and I was having some pretty horrendous bullying at school.

[00:13:22] This was a girl who was formerly my friend. And then for some reason, you know how this happens, there was some kind of twist. It was all psychological and it was all what I perceived as her turning all of my friends against me, telling lies about me.

[00:13:38] And I just remember being absolutely terrified going into school, just hiding in like the toilets, hiding in the stairwell, all of this stuff because it was really rough. So anyway, all that kind of built up and built up.

[00:13:50] I didn't really feel like I could talk about it at home. And yeah, I decided on my way home, I was going to walk along the busy 40 mile an hour road, just walk out in front of a car.

[00:14:00] And to be honest, this was probably the most planned suicide attempt I've ever had because I'm much more of a spontaneous person. Usually. But yeah, I was just walking home and I was like, huh, I could just walk out in front of a car.

[00:14:12] And it was almost like people talk about intrusive thoughts where you just suddenly think that stuff, but you're never going to do it. But I was like, no, I am going to do it. How long are you thinking about that plan? Like less than five minutes, probably.

[00:14:24] Five minutes. So you had wanted to not be alive. I shouldn't ask this question, but it sounds like things are really hard. At what point do you decide to not be alive or try that and then method? Yeah.

[00:14:35] So the planning was more about not being alive rather than how to do it. So I would say probably maybe three or four months, something like that. So I'd been, I'd been thinking about it for like six months a year.

[00:14:49] And then I was like, what, how can I do this in a way that is going to be effective if we want to use that word and that no one's going to intervene and stop me essentially. Also, are you thinking they might think it's an accident? Actually?

[00:15:03] Yeah, probably. I think I probably was thinking that and then that would be okay. Wouldn't it? I mean, I think that's part of the thing. Yeah.

[00:15:11] It's interesting because at my school, like maybe three weeks prior, another student had tried to end her life in the nurse's office in the toilet by cutting her wrists. And obviously it was intervened and she was sent to hospital and all of that stuff.

[00:15:28] And I remember thinking, oh my God, I cannot have someone intervene. And so that's why I was kind of umming and ahhing about all these different options.

[00:15:35] And then that day I was just walking home from school and I had the option to go my normal route or to go the route that went down the busy road. And I was like, well, just do that. And then I was like, you know what?

[00:15:45] I'm just going to walk out in front of a car. That's what I did. Well, hang on, hang on. I don't want to unnecessarily stretch these moments out too long because I don't get too, too graphic, but there's usually a little more going on here.

[00:15:55] So you're, when you're walking along, this may not be easy to remember. Like, are you chill? Nervous? Are you excited? Like, how would you describe that? Eerily chill, like completely disconnected from any emotion. It was like I was planning to go buy chocolate from the corner shop.

[00:16:16] Like, oh, I could just go and buy a chocolate bar. Oh, I'll just walk in front of a car. So it almost, I think anyone watching, it would have looked almost mechanical. That's the best way of describing, I think.

[00:16:27] And because it was just very cool and calm and collected. Did you walk in front of a car? Mm-hmm. Yeah. And they swerved. Didn't hit you at all? Did they get in an accident? Um, yeah. Which is really awful, isn't it?

[00:16:43] Um, not, not, not too bad for one luckily, but yeah, they basically hit like a, um, not a central reservation because the road wasn't, wasn't fast enough, but like a little kind of crossing point where there's like little bollards. They hit that and an attempt to move.

[00:16:58] It sounds ridiculous, but it was like one of those slow motion moments where I almost felt like walking out took about 20 minutes when in reality it was like two seconds. And then what? I completely panicked and ran away because I was, I, I didn't know what to do.

[00:17:14] I literally was the opposite of a hit and run. I was a run and hit. I ran away.

[00:17:20] And then when I thought the person was okay, and then I went back to the scene about an hour and a half later, and I was just like, I was just so worried that the person was unwell or whatever, checked all the news and everything, or they were fine.

[00:17:33] And actually we heard about it at school the next day through like talking in the playground or ever. And so I was like, oh, thank God they're okay. That was my main kind of concern.

[00:17:41] But yeah, I ran away because I was like, no one can find out about this. Um, yeah. No one did. No one did. Got away with it. No CCTV in that area.

[00:17:54] Now I never want to be too light when someone shares something, but occasionally, you know what run and hit might be right? No, I'm not sure. Tell me. Cause I have a gift. Oh, I see. I see. Yeah. I like it. I like it.

[00:18:06] No, I mean, it might not be the right one, but we're just starting. Yeah. We'll take it for now. It's catchy. Possible memoir title. All right. Did you tell anyone about that day when you walked in front of a car? Well, I didn't for a long time.

[00:18:22] I was honestly so my mom was super strict, super, super, super strict. And I know this will sound wild, but I was so anxious about her being angry with me. If she found out that it almost shut it down for a little bit of time.

[00:18:38] Like I didn't feel good. Of course I didn't. But I was able to internalize it enough to not do it again because I was like, Jesus, I have really effed that up and I can't run the risk of that happening again. Extreme.

[00:18:52] I know, but that was the level of fear that I had at the time. Yeah. Now there's a few things I know about you. One, if you're a therapist, you finish high school. I know you do some kind of college.

[00:19:04] You probably do well because you're a therapist and if you're not a good student, you just don't get to be a therapist. Isn't that usually how it works? It's a lot of studying. Yeah. Sure. You work very hard all the while you're battling stuff. Yeah.

[00:19:15] And I know as you get into your twenties and you're doing the school and eventually you start your work, what's the age range, if you can recall, the attempts that you don't really recall, if that makes sense. 21-ish through to about 28, I would say.

[00:19:29] I'm going to imagine, I'm going to guess different method. Yeah. A lot of different types of method. Some overdose, some cutting. And then I had one incident where I stood on top of a motorway bridge, but I'm so

[00:19:46] scared of heights that I just couldn't bring myself to put my even one foot barrier. Yeah. And then the most recent one was a completely different method. So there's been a bit of a mixed bag.

[00:19:58] And I think the reason for that was kind of similar to how I felt at the beginning. It was like, well, that didn't work. So I'm not going to try that again. Let me try this. Do you have any idea why you can't remember them?

[00:20:10] From a professional perspective, I think it's a trauma thing. So I think it's my brain's way of protecting me and just saying, look, you can't deal with that right now. It's too much for you. So stop.

[00:20:21] Um, I think from a personal perspective, what I remember at that time is just being again, like really disconnected from myself. All I felt was just raw emotion. Like I would spend weeks, months in bed, unable to get out of bed, unable to go to

[00:20:36] work, to do anything. Um, like these massive depressive periods and then something would change. I don't even know what, and it would slowly start to come out of it again and then be able to function a bit more like a normal person in society.

[00:20:50] But yeah, these massive kind of dips that would happen. Um, and in those times I was literally just living. So I don't, I think I didn't even have space to my brain to memorize things, to be honest. Yeah.

[00:21:03] Do you think, however you define the word suicidal, do you think throughout that whole period, whether you're in a dip or not, you're suicidal? Yeah. I think for me, suicidal thoughts have been a constant for me almost since I was a teenager.

[00:21:18] I mean, I've, I last had a suicidal thought this morning at the moment. I didn't have any intention of doing anything about it, but for me, they kind of, they pop into my head all the time.

[00:21:29] But then when I sort of get into one of those really low periods, that's when it just amps up. Um, and it then becomes unbearable. So at the moment it's like a bit shit, but it's bearable. But for the most part, when it's like that, it's awful.

[00:21:44] And it's a weird one because obviously during the time from 14 to now, I've had some like super happy, amazing times in my life. Like mainly stuff with my friends. I love my friends. They're like my complete family. Um, like amazing trips.

[00:21:58] I've been lucky to do all kinds of weird and wonderful things. But in the background there's this, why don't you just die? Like I will sometimes walk along my corridor to my front door and I find myself saying out loud, I wish I was dead.

[00:22:12] And then I'm like, Whoa, where did that come from? It's just like a little friend in the back of my brain. How old are you now? 35. And how long have you been working in this field? 10ish years.

[00:22:24] And whether you're at work or not, maybe you're out with friends or elsewhere, you're presenting probably somewhat like you're presenting right now. Yeah, totally. But that doesn't mean you're not feeling this way sometimes. This other way we're talking about.

[00:22:38] And that's where I think some of the shame comes in, right? Again, because if I were to say to not a really close friend, but to anyone, a friend, a colleague, anyone, well, I wanted to die this morning, they'd probably laugh because they'd be like, you're so...

[00:22:53] People often tell me I'm confident. I'm like the least confident person ever. Ever. But oh, you're so confident, you're so chatty and you seem really happy and bubbly. Like how, like this makes no sense to me because the suicidal person is the person

[00:23:08] crying with their head in their hands in a corner of the room. And I'm like, I've been that person, trust me. But I'm also this person. Some days are worse than others. And I feel closer to that first person, but I still get up.

[00:23:20] I still walk my dogs. I still do my job. But yeah. And I suppose the tricky thing for me is the point where I have to say I can't do my job right now because I'm not okay enough to support other people.

[00:23:30] And that's really crap when that happens, but I have to do it sometimes. But yeah, it's a weird one. And so that shame comes in again because people almost wouldn't believe me. It feels like sometimes because I'm so good at putting a mask on when I have to.

[00:23:46] How, how long ago was the most recent one? About a year ago. You remember that one? Yeah. What happened there? So this was, this one felt that not the attempt, but the period of time felt like

[00:23:59] particularly, I'm going to say annoying for want of a better word because lots of stuff was going good in my life. And so I was finally moving from somewhere that I'd hated living and couldn't get out of for ages for various reasons. I was finally making that move.

[00:24:17] I started my own business about five years ago and suddenly that was kind of taken off and that was really cool. There's lots of good stuff. But then out of nowhere, it felt like there must've been some trigger, but God knows what it was.

[00:24:29] I was suddenly almost like overnight. It was just bleak, just bleaker than bleak. I remember going and sitting on my best friend's sofa. I find it hard to talk about this stuff.

[00:24:40] I am just a bit, but I was just so open with her and I was just, I just can't do this anymore. I can't feel like this again. I can't go through this again. I don't want to put you through it again. I just cannot.

[00:24:51] And I felt like when you've been through this pattern so many times and you feel it coming again, it's like someone chasing you with a knife. That's the best way of describing it. It's like, no, not again.

[00:25:05] And yeah, the suddenness of it literally over the space of a week, I went from like woo to kill me. That was the trigger for it. I was just like, I can't do this again. I can't.

[00:25:17] And I think because I have had those periods where it's lasted months and months and months, I just, the thought of being in that for that amount of time again was just unbearable. How did your friend respond? She's like the most incredible human in the world.

[00:25:29] Honestly, like she's never felt suicidal. I hope she never does, but she is the perfect listener. She doesn't judge me at all. And she listens without giving me any solutions because she knows there aren't any. So she just said, I love sharks.

[00:25:45] So she's like, do you want to watch some sharks on TV? It's like, dude, you must love me. You still want to sit and watch David Attenborough. It's like, do you want to watch some sharks? Shall I make you a penne arrabiata, which is my favorite food?

[00:25:56] Do you just want to sit here? Do you want to talk about shit? Do you want to sit in silence? And I was like, yeah, any of the above. So she's just someone I can just be with. And that was really helpful.

[00:26:06] And I did that for about four days straight, to be honest. Yeah. And then it got worse and I just decided I didn't want to involve her anymore because I didn't want her to feel responsible for not having done something. Yeah. New method? Yeah.

[00:26:20] I tied a cord to the back of my bedroom door and tried to hang myself. I had researched how to tie it and how to do it and all of that stuff, which is very hard on Google. It really tries very hard to probably to redirect you.

[00:26:38] But clearly it didn't work. It felt not to be too graphic, but it was almost working for a bit. And then it kind of slipped. I remember just sitting there and don't cry very often at all.

[00:26:49] But I did for like two hours because I was just like, I can't even do this. Oh my gosh. This might be a weird question, but you really wanted to die. Yeah, I did. And I think, fuck, where I live, I live on the seventh floor.

[00:27:04] I mean, that's, it's possible you could live, but probably not. It's pretty high. I think what probably stops me in the moment is two things. So one is the spontaneity of it. So again, I'm not sitting there planning.

[00:27:17] I am just suddenly literally from 1202 to 1203, I'm like, I'm going to kill myself. And then I'm like, I have to do it now. I can't feel like this for another second. I have to do it now, now, now.

[00:27:27] And so I think that's what, it's almost like a panicked thing. And so I just go for whatever is the most obvious. So I've spent hours researching, hours and hours and hours researching.

[00:27:38] So I have the knowledge in my head, but it's just like, what can I do right now? And so there's that. Maybe when I was younger, there were a couple of times where I almost wanted to see like how far I could get and then pull myself back.

[00:27:53] But for the most part, that's not me. I think it's just this kind of panicked, I have to do something immediately and this is what I'm going to do type thing. When you say, I can't feel like this for a moment longer. What do you mean?

[00:28:05] Just utter despair. The feeling is nothing will ever be okay again. And even though I have been through this more times than I can count and every time come out the other end, whether I've attempted or not, when I know that, and

[00:28:19] I have all that evidence in my head in that moment, it just doesn't feel like it would happen this time. It doesn't feel like it will be okay this time. Yeah. You do have it in your head that you have experienced this before and it has gotten

[00:28:33] better because for some people, I don't think they do, but you actually do. But yet this time it doesn't make a difference. Not this time. Yeah. And you know, people could, I don't really talk about it to many people, but people

[00:28:45] could tell me until they're blue in the face. We love you, blah, blah, blah. You're important to us. But I don't care because I just don't believe them. I'm like, this will make no difference to your life. Like is this all this? I'm a huge burden.

[00:28:57] This you'll, you'll be better off without me. And I don't feel like that now, but when I'm in that moment, that's a hundred percent how I feel. So we had this conversation earlier about suicide connected to mental illness.

[00:29:08] No, but have you been diagnosed with something that you agree with that might be contributing to this? Yeah. I say a few things. So I think the main thing is a complex PTSD. Um, that rings true most for me.

[00:29:19] I deal with quite a lot of flashbacks, nightmares, even to this day. Um, again, that kind of ebbs and flows. Kind of called depression, for sure. Um, makes sense for me. And I've struggled with eating disorder as well.

[00:29:31] That was kind of early twenties was the main time that that was a real issue. And that's kind of, I think it was one of the catalysts for that really dark period during my twenties. So yeah, I would say those three probably.

[00:29:43] How are you, how do you cope with all that? So I have taken medication, a lot of different types of medication past, I'm not at the moment. Um, I wanted to trial what that would be like. Um, I do see a therapist.

[00:29:54] I've been seeing her for about just over a year. Um, it's a different type of therapy that I haven't had myself before. And I kind of think it's helping, but it's also really rough. Sometimes I come up and I'm like, Oh my God, I need to lie down.

[00:30:08] Does it have a name? The kind of therapy? It's more kind of psychotherapy. So it's really looking at the childhood stuff as opposed to like. Skills coping skills. It's kind of delving into some of that stuff in the past. Yeah.

[00:30:20] Which it sounds like you don't do as a practice. No, I don't like to go there at all. I'm a massive hypocrite. There was a time when I thought psychotherapy was therapy. I thought they were the same thing. I didn't realize it was a subset. Yeah.

[00:30:32] I mean, some people could market themselves in that way, but yeah, it's like a specific type of therapy. Yeah. I'm going to take a guess and saying that not a lot of people know that you've tried to end your life even once. Yeah, that's true.

[00:30:46] I'm worried that people's perception of me will change if they know that about me. Um, I worry that people will think I'm not capable of doing my job, that I will be perceived in a different way. I think you're mostly right. Yeah. So do I.

[00:31:00] For what it's worth. You didn't ask me, but I'm going to go out. I mean, I don't think you're wrong. We all judge each other all the time. Don't we? Like constantly. We wouldn't be human if we didn't.

[00:31:09] Um, but there's a difference between judging people and doing nothing with that judgment and then there's judging people and damaging people with that judgment and that's the thing that I fear. I think. Have you ever spent time in a hospital psych hospital? Yeah.

[00:31:23] So I've been on both sides, but I've worked in them and I've been in them and from both sides, they're pretty shit. It could be done in such a different way, but essentially you are putting a scared, sad, traumatized, potentially person somewhere away from anything that makes

[00:31:39] them feel good and you are forcing them to do things against their will and they are in a place with a load of strangers. They don't know who they're potentially frightened of as well. And it's just a recipe for chaos.

[00:31:51] I think the ultimate thing, it's just getting your freedom taken away from you. Isn't it? Like not even just being locked behind a door, but being told you're going to take this medication. You're going to eat this food. You're going to go to bed at this time.

[00:32:01] Like is there any wonder people kick off? I don't think so. Tell us what kickoff means. Hit people, fight, slam doors, fight each other, hurt people, all that stuff. Yeah. I mean, you could argue it's a rather logical response when one is put in such a situation.

[00:32:16] Anybody would have been. Definitely. Fight or flight. Hey. So ideally you're not going back to one of those. No, thanks. No, I would like to stay clear of that. So as we speak now, do you ever wish that any of those attempts had worked?

[00:32:29] Yeah, honestly, I think in general I'm 50 50. I would say if the week is seven days, three and a half of them, I think, you know, off the shit. Um, for the other half, I can maybe enjoy myself and do some things that I like.

[00:32:45] It often doesn't feel enough because the time that I spend not wanting to be here is heavy going. You're 35. You have some, you know, there's some things in your life, some people on paper

[00:32:56] and this may not be worth much, but from what you shared, they'd be like, wait, what, you've got your own business. You've got these great friends that you said you love and all this other stuff. Right. New home, but there's a big butt. Yeah.

[00:33:08] So I guess this is my very long winded way of asking, do you think you'll make it? Let's use a round number of 40, which is a scary number. I know anyway. Wow. It's a scary number. Oh, Holly, just wait. Just fucking wait. Okay. So let's use that.

[00:33:27] That's four plus years away. Uh-huh. And if your life thus far and people are going to be like, God, Sean, why are you so negative? I'm just really saying what you said. Hopefully I'm doing an accurate job of it and you'll correct me if I'm wrong.

[00:33:40] Half your day suck. Yeah. And suck to the point where you sometimes seriously consider ending your life for one and a half years. It could be long time, a long time. I'm not going to ask you to give me odds, but what's the likelihood you'll be here?

[00:33:53] I like to think I will for two reasons. One, my close friends who in this well-ish point that I'm at today, I know it would hurt them. Okay. Um, and two, my dogs. I have one dog who bless him struggles with life, but it's very comfortable with me.

[00:34:13] And I know that if he were to be rehomed, he would have a really shit life because he would be so anxious and the other three are just gorgeous. So they're my reasons for wanting to stick around.

[00:34:27] So if I'm understanding you correctly, even though you often don't want to be here, the two main reasons why you at least thinking ahead are likely to want to stay are for your friends, other people, and for you dogs. So let us discuss the question of selfishness.

[00:34:42] Shall we? You're saying you're lying. I know I'm being a little cheeky here, but not really. Your life is really hard to the point where you've tried to end it multiple times, but you're not out of that space and you may never be out of that space,

[00:35:00] but you're, you're going to, you're slugging through it. I don't know if that's a British term. Slogging. Yeah. Yeah. Not for yourself. You didn't say because I know I can make another a hundred thousand pounds. You specifically pointed out other, well, not people only there were dogs.

[00:35:19] Their lives would be impacted negatively. Let's assume. And you're probably right. Yeah. So please, I've talked a lot. Please just help me understand selfishness. That's it, right? Like, I don't know where this narrative came from that people who are in their life are selfish.

[00:35:35] The only thing I can really make sense of it, the only way I can make sense of it is that it's so abhorrent and awful for people who don't feel like that. It's like, how could you ever think of doing that to yourself?

[00:35:48] That it feels like a personal insult. So then people are like, Oh, well, sorry, selfish. Cause you know, you doing that thing would hugely impact me. I mean, who's being selfish now? Really? That's a good question. It's interesting. It's funny. So I've never wanted children.

[00:36:06] They kind of grossed me out. Not a fan. Growing up, my mom always used to say to me, Oh God, you're so selfish. Like I want grandchildren. Like don't be so selfish. And I was thinking in a second, I'm being selfish. What? And it's a similar thing.

[00:36:21] It's this idea that someone else's actions are impacting me and therefore they are a selfish person. Absolutely not. Like that's just your perception of them. It's only a word and people don't use the words the same exact way.

[00:36:34] So one person might mean something a little different, but we can all probably agree mostly what it means. So yeah, it's a weird one. So given all that, one more question about that stuff.

[00:36:44] And then I want to ask you about the myths and you brought one up already. Now you've been listening to the podcast, so you know about the pink and purple pill. For the sake of our audience, I give you a pill.

[00:36:53] Let's say tonight you don't feel any pain and nobody knows you died by suicide. They think you just fell asleep. One, do you take it? And if you do, how quickly do you take it? This is really interesting.

[00:37:04] So my immediate response in my brain was give it to me now. Yes, I'll take it immediately. That was my quick twitch. And then my mediated second response was no for the reasons that I just listed friends and dogs.

[00:37:20] So yeah, if I did what I wanted, yes, but because of the responsibility, I feel no. I know that's not really answering your question. No, it is. It is. It is because things are rarely black and white.

[00:37:34] But when you say I want to, does that include the time? So what's basically right now? Let's I mean, I'm trying to simplify this and it really can't be, but it's sometimes you want to die and sometimes you don't half and half more or less. Yeah.

[00:37:45] You said this morning you thought about ending your life, but I realized you weren't necessarily like looking out the window when you thought that it's just the thought. Yeah. So yeah, I don't know what this week has been like or the last few days.

[00:37:57] In other words, if I asked you last week or yesterday or three hours from now or next week about the same pill question, the answer would be the same. Not necessarily.

[00:38:06] I think if you'd asked me two and a half weeks ago, I was in a much worse place and it would have been, yeah, I don't care. And that's, that's always the danger for me. If I'm really upset, I'm really emotional, which as I said, doesn't happen very

[00:38:20] often. That's kind of like it's shit, but it's, it's okay. It's not danger territory. It's, it's when I get to the point where I'm like, I don't care about anyone or anything. I couldn't care less about any impact at all.

[00:38:35] I can't stand this and this is what I need to do. That is when I'm more likely to try and do something. Yeah. And I hate feeling like that because it doesn't feel like me. It feels really cold and horrible, but that's what happens sometimes. Right.

[00:38:47] That's the limits of talking to someone once. And when you catch them, you catch them and tomorrow might be a little different, but it doesn't sound like it would be profoundly different. I don't think so. No.

[00:38:59] Was there a point in your life where you were like, all right, I think this is just going to be my life if I'm alive. Cause I think a lot of times it's the conflict of like not accepting way things are that creates additional problems. Right. I know.

[00:39:10] Yeah. Super high level psychology here. But did you, and I don't know if you've ever, maybe aren't in that space or never will be, but you're just like, fuck it. You know, I'm 33. This is it. Yeah, it has happened. And then fortunately I've also had the opposite.

[00:39:25] So I've, I've had times where I've been like, I feel so happy right now. Um, I feel so free and you know, when it happens and you know, this is like a

[00:39:37] privileged thing to say, but if I go away, if I go on holiday, I went away with my best friend a few weeks ago, went to it on a beach holiday.

[00:39:45] I was so happy and relaxed and chilled and free of all of this for the full week we were there. And yeah, of course everyone loves, you know, having nice things and going to nice

[00:39:56] places, of course, but it wasn't that it was a complete detachment from my normal life. And so somehow I was able to leave all of this stuff in my head in the background as well. That that's the difference for me.

[00:40:10] So, you know, I didn't have to go somewhere incredible. I could just go to a cottage 20 miles down the road, but there's something about removing myself from the day to day that I'm like, Oh, everything's fine. You know, everything's wonderful.

[00:40:24] And then of course I go back to my life and it comes back and it's not that I hate my life. Like I like my job. I like where I live. I like some of the stuff I do, but then it's this thing in the background that

[00:40:34] comes back like, Hey, I'm here. Yeah. And if you stayed long enough in the cottage or the beach, that would be your normal and it would come back. Exactly. Exactly. Um, so I think it is just that like, yeah, like you say, it's the deviation from

[00:40:46] reality for a bit that allows me to have a break. And so I try and do that as much as I can, whatever that looks like, even if it's just a day somewhere and give myself a bit of a respite, I guess.

[00:40:57] But you know, you're coming back and you know what it's going to be like. Yeah. Is there anything you do that helps? Yes. Anything dog related helps for sure. Training the dogs, playing with the dogs, walking the dogs, sharing my bed with the dogs. Yeah.

[00:41:12] I see a theme here of sorts or sharks, but they're a little more dangerous. Little harder to cuddle. Yeah. Um, obviously I like hanging out with my friends. I actually, when I get into it, I really enjoy the work that I do sometimes.

[00:41:26] So there is something nice about supporting other people that I really like. So my, my business is a bit of a weird hybrid. So I am a human psychologist and a dog behaviorist. I work with both, both sides, which is really cool.

[00:41:39] You got to train the humans, right? That's what they say. Training. Exactly. Um, so I love that. And if that's a tricky thing, right? So like, I love it and it brings me joy, but then when I'm feeling bad, it's a lot, it's a lot to manage.

[00:41:55] So that's a Tita point for me. And then I also have some more self-destructive things that I do, which on paper don't look good, but help in the moment. Self-harm for example. Yeah. What'd you say? Self-harm. Yeah.

[00:42:11] It's like, well, I've got a larger problem and this little problem is helping me with the bigger problems. Yeah. Have you ever lost a patient to suicide? Yeah. Yeah. Uh, three people. Did you second guess anything about how you dealt with them? Oh, a hundred percent.

[00:42:26] It's a weird one. I think even cause I've lost a friend to suicide as well. And it is different to that. Obviously different emotions and stuff are involved, but you feel a sense of responsibility with either something different when it's a patient. Yeah.

[00:42:41] I used to, I worked in prisons for a long time and we lost two people in prison that I'd worked with. And that was, I think because prison is so rough and awful for people who are stuck in

[00:42:51] there, it's like hospital on steroids, especially the hospital inside the prison. That's like next level torture. Yeah. You just see people suffering in like the rawest form. So I think that felt really hard. That one. Yeah. We like to punish people hard. Yeah.

[00:43:06] Let's talk about myths that have not come up yet. My belief is that suicide isn't special. It's not some scary, elusive thing that happens to a very small number, you know, proportion of the population. It's your best friend, your teacher, your neighbor, your mom, your sister, your

[00:43:24] brother, like you, me, it's anyone at any time. So I try as much as I can to give people the benefit of the doubt and try and be kind to people. I don't always succeed. Who does? But I just think it can be anyone.

[00:43:38] So before anyone kind of steps in and says this type of person mentally ill, they're the people that are suicidal. It may be, but it could also be you. That's a big one for me. I do have another one.

[00:43:51] This is the idea that suicidal people always have someone to turn to and someone to talk to because that's not always the case. Some people have no one. For some people that feel like this, they can't pick up a phone and call a hotline

[00:44:06] because they don't have a phone. It is really, really bleak for some people. So the idea, it kind of ties into the selfishness idea really, but the idea that you could have stopped yourself if you try it hard enough just isn't the case for a lot of people.

[00:44:20] I don't think. What you've listened to the podcast for several months in your line of work, you ask a lot of questions. What I do here, I ask a lot of questions.

[00:44:29] It will come as no surprise that I am not a therapist or a counselor, but we do similar things in that way. We ask questions. Perhaps we're with different goals. You know, the intent is a little different perhaps. We're quite different.

[00:44:40] My point is here is other questions when you've been listening to the podcast or when you're not just in your, like you would want me to ask whether it's you or someone else that I don't typically ask. That's a very interesting question.

[00:44:52] I think the question I always ask people is, and you don't ask this, which is great, but I never would ask someone what's wrong with you, but always what's happened to you. That's like the basis of everything. I think it's not how you're defective and how you're broken.

[00:45:08] It's what happened. Heck has happened in your life. And it's happened to all of us, right? We've all experienced stuff like that. I don't think there's anyone that gets through to like their thirties, forties, fifties unscathed. We're all dealing with something.

[00:45:24] I think as well, it's all these bloody rules in society. People are scared of doing the wrong thing, saying the wrong thing. Like this idea that if I ask someone, if I straight up say to someone, do you want to die?

[00:45:37] That that's going to put the idea in their head. Do you really think that's going to put the idea in their head? Absolutely not. But I will openly ask that question.

[00:45:45] If I've got a friend that's having a rough time, I will say to them like, how bad are we talking? Like, you thinking about hurting yourself? Because I want to know the answer to that question because if they're not, they'll say, oh no, no, no, nothing like that.

[00:45:58] Fine. But if they are, then I can be like, do you need me to help? What can I do? Because otherwise people are just sitting holding this like secret inside of themselves. Desperate sometimes, not always, but desperate sometimes for someone to just ask

[00:46:15] the questions that they can just be like, God, yeah, that's how I feel. And I just think we don't learn how to ask the question. We don't, it's not okay to ask the question. Yeah. In a way they're almost surviving. It's like a survival thing.

[00:46:27] I can't ask this question. Meaning the person would ask it, there might be consequences, especially like in the workplace sometimes or in other spaces or circles. But you didn't ask in your example here, you said, do you, are you thinking of hurting yourself?

[00:46:40] That is not the same thing as are you thinking of ending your life? That's my lead in. I might answer no to your question, even though I'm thinking of ending my life, but this is your transition in your segue. Yeah. It's like my little soft step in.

[00:46:56] So I'm like, are you thinking of hurting yourself? And if they say yes or no, then I'll be like, what about something more? Thinking of killing yourself? And to be honest, most of my friends, I've asked them that many times. They're like, here we go again.

[00:47:09] I'd rather know. And actually for all the times I've asked them, people have said no. There have been times when people have been like, you know what? Yeah, I am feeling like that.

[00:47:17] Um, and I just think, thank God I asked not that I'm some amazing person that can do anything to fix it, but at least they feel like maybe they could talk to me. Maybe. How often do people ask you that question? Very, very rarely.

[00:47:32] And I guess it depends on the person and how you're feeling that day. If you would be honest or not. Yeah. You know what? Actually, I think 99.9% of the time I would be honest either way.

[00:47:42] However I was feeling the only time in which I wouldn't be honest was if I was in that, I don't care phase and I decided at 10 o'clock tonight, that was when it was happening and I didn't want anyone to do anything to stop me.

[00:47:53] That's probably the only time when I would be like, yeah, it's all good. We'll get my friend. Yeah. Do you think there's anybody let's say in your field or related in some way to your work who you would not want hearing this?

[00:48:07] Or you were even concerned about hearing this? Hey, what? No. Um, I think once upon a time I would have been, and I think if I still worked for the national health service in the UK, maybe right.

[00:48:18] I had set some bosses that I would be terrified of hearing this, but now I went for myself and I'm a big kind of cheerleader for lived experience being talked about, not just like, Oh yes, I've had some difficulties, but actually saying, yeah, I've dealt with this. Yeah.

[00:48:33] I'm not scared of anyone hearing it. I'm not proud of it, but I think it needs to be talked about. So yeah. I wonder if we were, this is an impossible thing to measure. I wonder if we can measure Americans versus Brits are Brits a little

[00:48:46] less likely to talk about this stuff? Probably. Or a reserved bunch. Right. That's probably one of the reasons why. The other question I wonder is men, women, and yet, yes, I know there are other categories, but I'm choosing to just go with men, women, mostly people

[00:49:04] would say in my experience, they would say men talk less and I always wonder, is that, um, I don't think there's an answer here, but perhaps, you know, something I don't know very likely. Like, is that a biological thing? Environmental thing?

[00:49:17] Typically things blend in and they're both, but I wonder why. Yeah. I think it's a societal thing more than a, well, it is a bit of both as always, but yeah, I feel like there's certain parts of society that haven't moved on as quickly as other parts have.

[00:49:33] And so I think I'm not a man, so I can't speak for men, but I know some of my male friends have said something along the lines of, you know, I look weak.

[00:49:42] I don't look manly if I show my emotions in 2023 and I'm like, yo, what the heck? Um, I would say some of my male friends are very open and more open than I am. Um, but yeah, it's, it is still a factor.

[00:49:58] Um, and it's interesting when you're asking about work because that as well is huge in this country. So organizations are like, yeah, we support mental health, emotional wellbeing. We're going to do these mental health days. Mental health day. We're going to bring in a speaker. Like me.

[00:50:16] And then ironically, and then they will, you know, someone's like, I actually need to take a month off cause I'm really struggling and they're like, oh God, should I call in sick? Should I tell the truth? Should I say, break my leg?

[00:50:26] And all of this stuff starts happening again. And it's like, hang on a second. So this is all just a front. We don't actually think this. We don't actually feel this way. Which kind of makes it worse in a way. Say what you do.

[00:50:40] You don't really support it. You don't really help your employees and then they don't know not to work there. If they have any control agency in their life, cause they're not completely desperate, which most people are. Yeah.

[00:50:49] I would just say it so that we can know to plan a lot instead of this. Oh, come on. Don't be. Exactly. It's like, okay, you gave me a massage in 2000 and 2012, 2012 on the, uh, on the

[00:50:58] company, and then now I actually need some time off and you're like, oh, well you need to be careful. You're sick policy. And there is still the divide between mental and physical health.

[00:51:07] If I did break my leg and I was off for six weeks, cause I a horse riding instructor and I can't do my job physically. Most companies in the UK would give that sick pay probably paid or at least half

[00:51:18] pay, but all of a sudden you've been off with depression a few times. Can you do this job? Is this the right role for you? How is this different? I actually think a little part of it, or maybe more than a little is it's

[00:51:30] really hard to fake a broken leg. And in their minds, they might be thinking, are they really down? Are they really, we wouldn't say like, I have a broken leg. I had a broken leg and came to work.

[00:51:44] That would be a strange argument, but someone who doesn't understand this stuff would say, well, I've been down and tufted out and went to work. Or maybe they're lying to their therapist and they just signed off on it. And that probably does happen here and there. Whatever.

[00:51:58] It's irrelevant. It's like, there are people here who no doubt fake stuff for welfare or workman's comp, we call it, but most don't. I just haven't heard that argument, which is a very, very weak one. Yeah, for sure. What else would you like to share about anything?

[00:52:14] I think the one other thing that I wanted to talk about, and this is kind of off left field, is age and suicide. Children try to take their lives. Adults try to take their lives. And actually in this country anyway, a huge number of elderly people

[00:52:29] take their own life. I just don't think that generation is just not talked about. Like the kids, it's like, oh my God, that's terrifying. Why is a child trying to kill themselves? The adults, it's like either you're selfish or I would never do that.

[00:52:44] But then elderly people, it's shocking for people. Like, whoa, you're like 80 and you've hung yourself? What the heck? There are so many reasons that people have, of course, but there's a hell of a lot that can be awful for the older generation.

[00:52:58] And I just don't think that gets talked about at all. So yeah, I just want to highlight that, I guess. Yeah. If you've struggled for that long, it's even more likely. And now your body doesn't work the same way and now you've lost friends.

[00:53:11] Like, I think that's a recipe for suicide 100%. Yeah. And we put them in homes here often. And you're living a really, you know, it's like, yeah. One of the things that doesn't get discussed, it gets discussed, but I think

[00:53:24] it could be discussed more and in ways that are more useful or helpful is, all right, you're a kid and it's shocking. You're really old. It's shocking when you're middle-aged or 30s, whatever it's selfish or it's this or that, right? But you're not actually talking about it.

[00:53:37] You're just saying those, that's not actually a conversation. None of that is a conversation. Now I know you were making just a point. Yeah. I don't know what happens in almost every situation ever because I'm not there. So there's probably a lot of conversations happening. Sure.

[00:53:51] So lack of curiosity that's overtaken by all kinds of other things. Where's your curiosity? Even before compassion, like just for me, I'm curious. I guess I'm the guy has a podcast shocker. Do you think we just lack curiosity?

[00:54:04] And I wonder if, has it always been that way or has it changed some? I don't know. But if you look at it this way, if you're curious about other people, that's the antithesis of being selfish. People who aren't suicidal that accuse people who are of being selfish.

[00:54:21] I kind of feel like for those people, if you just had a little curiosity and just ask people about themselves, maybe opened up conversations that people felt safe to share how they felt for some people that would be enough to keep them here. Oh yeah. So, oh yeah.

[00:54:34] But I have learned, I think some people actually don't know how to do that. I don't mean they're afraid to do that though. Some are, I mean the mechanisms of a conversation. They did not learn and have not learned.

[00:54:46] And I have specific people, for example, in my life where if you said that to them and say, what are you talking about? We talk, what they don't know is I think, yeah, sometimes we talk, but you very

[00:54:57] quickly, you may not realize it very quickly go to like the little mini judgments, things that aren't opening a conversation up, you're actually making it hard for me. I might not say that. I might play along. You're doing these little things and we've all dealt with them.

[00:55:10] You know, these little minimizers or latitudes or whatever. Or just outright judgments. Sometimes it's more explicit. Sure. No, I was going to say sometimes it's not even that you in the moment think I will

[00:55:23] remember that and I will not tell you about this ever, but it's in your subconscious, right? So it just gets filtered in. So you might have 19 conversations with this person and over time your brain says that person is not safe.

[00:55:35] I am not going to tell them anything that puts me at risk. And so it's really, it's a shame because over time that friendship is going to degrade because the trust is just disappearing. Right? A hundred percent.

[00:55:45] And the other element of that is when you're the person suffering, I do think people again, whether they're conscious of it or not do a thing where, well, I'm not the one struggling. It's you, you must be the problem. And I do think that's pretty common.

[00:55:59] So here's how it looks in actual conversation in real life would be like, well, you're struggling and you have always been very sensitive. So this is just you being super sensitive again, as one example, it's like that

[00:56:10] might actually be rather accurate, but are you checking in with how you're showing up for this conversation? Because you're kind of asshole. So can we talk about that too? You know, your doesn't give you a license to just be that. What else you got miss Holly in England?

[00:56:27] What you're doing is amazing. Like people are able to search for that word and find something that actually helps as opposed to just getting an error message saying, Hey, why don't you ring this number? Like, come on. That'll happen soon enough in the podcast platforms. I'm sure.

[00:56:43] Yeah, probably so far we're riding the wave. Just trying to talk about it. Right. Well, I talk about it in my business quite a lot. Um, openly on social media, not in terms of my own experience a lot.

[00:56:56] Um, but when I do reference it and say I've had that experience, I don't go into detail like I have today. I just say, I, this has happened again. I've never had bad feedback from that ever. Wow.

[00:57:08] Um, interestingly, people are always like, thank you because I felt like that for 15 years or whatever. So yeah. Yeah. You know, you said earlier, who are you to tell somebody who's been struggling for so long what to do? And I kind of feel that way too.

[00:57:22] Oh, for sure. For sure. But is it sad that they feel that way? Fuck yeah. I hate when I hear other people feel like that. When you hear someone and you recognize something in it and you're like, Oh,

[00:57:31] God, but you can't save everyone and maybe they don't want to be saved. So that's AKG. I agree. Well, I think run and hit is the starting point. I thought also something with sharks and dogs. Some there's some wiggle room there too. I think maybe like a tagline.

[00:57:47] Yeah. You need a title. You need a tagline. Um, well, Holly in England, thank you very much. Thank you for having me. Of course. If you've heard the podcast, you know, I never know how to end these. Well, it's hard, right? I have a podcast that it's hard.

[00:58:02] Wait, what's your podcast? I have two. I have one for dog guardians called letters from your dog and one for dog professional was called training dogs, training people and keeping our shit together. Wait a second. You do a lot. I do everything.

[00:58:18] And you don't know how to end them either. It's hard. I don't have guests. It's just me chatting away, but I'm like, all right, see ya. There it is. How about we just do that? You ready on three? Ready? One, two, three. All right.

[00:58:32] It didn't work because if it would work, we would have just ended it right there. Anyway. All right. I'm ending it. Thank you again. And, uh, I take care of how we buy. As always. Thanks so much for listening and all of your support and special.

[00:58:47] Thanks to Holly in England. Thank you, Holly. If you are a suicide attempt survivor and you'd like to talk, please reach out. Hello. It's suicide noted.com and Facebook or Twitter at suicide. Check out the show notes to learn about all kinds of other cool things, including

[00:59:01] our membership. And that is all for episode number one, nine, three. And I should say happy-ish new year. It's 2024. Stay strong. Do the best you can. I'll talk to you soon.