Ezra in The Netherlands 🇳🇱

[00:00:00] There's a lot of pressure building, I think. And I feel like if I'm gonna do it, I'm gonna do it relatively soon. So I think that's why right now I'm having it close with me.

[00:00:35] Hey there, my name is Sean and this is Suicide Noted. On this podcast, I talk with suicide attempt survivors and ideators so that we can hear their stories. Every year around the world, millions of people try to take their own lives and we almost never talk about it. We certainly don't talk about it enough. And when we do talk about it, when we engage with people in pain, we are not very good at it.

[00:00:56] So one of my goals with this podcast and some other projects related to this podcast is to have more conversations and hopefully better conversations with survivors in large part to help more people in more places hopefully feel a little less shitty and a little less alone. Now if you are an attempt survivor or ideator and you'd like to talk, please reach out. Hello at SuicideNoted.com. I'd love to talk with you.

[00:01:17] For my former guests, a big thank you, number one. And also you will be getting an email from me probably in the next few weeks asking if you'd like to do an update episode. I know that's not a thing for all of you and I know some of you have already done one, but for those that haven't and might want to, well, that'll be coming your way pretty soon.

[00:01:36] And another note, I created something called The Missing Record. It overlaps somewhat with this podcast, but it's a private project and it is something that might be of interest to you or perhaps somebody that you know. You know that I've kept money out of this for the most part. Yes, we have a modest membership and yes, I've collected some donations through our fiscal sponsorship.

[00:01:57] It has been a challenge and I'm not complaining. I'm really mostly just really grateful for my guests and my listeners, but I've done what I can and keep trying to find a way to do this and expand this while making enough money to survive. So I created this thing called The Missing Record. I'll put the link in the podcast description, themissingrecord.com. It's pretty straightforward.

[00:02:20] Not suicidenoted.com. Those are two different things. And have a look. Give me some feedback. You might not like it. That's cool. You might want to share it with somebody. That's also cool. I'm just doing my best to use my skill set, what I think I do pretty well to create something for people that might be of value to them. So that's all I got. Keep in mind, we are talking about suicide on this podcast like we always do, like we've been doing since 2020.

[00:02:45] My guests and I do not hold back. So take that into account, please, before you listen or as you listen. But I do hope you listen because there is so much to learn. Today I am talking with Elizabeth. Elizabeth lives in the Netherlands and she is a suicide attempt survivor. Elizabeth. Hi. How are you doing? I'm doing well. How are you? I'm not that great. I'm glad you're here though. No, my life isn't great, Ezra. Is your life great?

[00:03:15] Maybe I said yes because I wanted to say yes. Okay, okay, okay. It was a general response, I think. Right. Like that's what we do. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think most people I talk to, actually, I would say there's a percentage of people I talk to for this podcast where their life is pretty great. But I would say more than not, it's not great. I mean, it's not the Sunshine and Rainbows podcast. No, no. That would be very different.

[00:03:41] You wouldn't have emailed me if I had your Sunshine and Rainbows podcast, would you have? No, no. I don't think I would have, no. Now, you wrote me and you said something about, sorry, it took so long, but I get a lot of emails. I didn't realize that you had emailed me back in the day. Yeah, yeah, yeah. A while ago. And then I suddenly got the courage and I was like, I'm going to see if this link still works. And it still worked. But I was like, it's kind of weird that I'm responding very, very late. Well, more importantly is what changed? What gave you the courage? That's the word you used.

[00:04:10] Maybe just feeling a bit worse because then I think at first I felt like, oh, maybe it's not worth it talking to me because I don't know if I have enough story to tell. So I think that's kind of like insecurity. I don't know if it makes any difference to you, but I think a lot of people feel that way. Yeah. Whether you are one of those people or not, I'm glad you're here. I appreciate you connecting with me. Thank you. You are in a white room. I am in a random Airbnb on an island in the Netherlands.

[00:04:37] Wait, wait, wait, wait. You're in a random Airbnb on an island in the Netherlands. Yes, yes. Your accent is so slight. I didn't even recognize it. And I'm pretty good at catching that. Well, I lived in England for half a year as an au pair. Okay. Maybe that was enough. But also in the Netherlands, you also consume a lot of English media. So I think that also really helps with an accent.

[00:05:05] Did you see that? I spoke with a teenager in the Netherlands named Willika, not Molly? Yeah. Yeah. I listened to it today because I thought, oh, well, I have to listen to it now because... You must have listened to at least one episode at one point and you would have never found my email. I've listened to many. Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Are there certain kinds of episodes, whether that's based on age or gender or something else that you tend to resonate with? Mainly when it's around my age. How old are you? I am 27.

[00:05:35] I don't know. I've asked this question once or twice. It's out of the blue. And the question is, do you have any questions for me? It mainly goes to the start of this conversation. You said you weren't doing well, more unwell than usual? That's a great question. I think it is. I think my baseline is pretty low. Yeah, I think there's enough things going on with some health and definitely finances, relationships where it's just... Yeah, no, it's not good. I still do the things that, you know, like for me, and then we are going to talk about you.

[00:06:05] You're like, I'm rarely the type, for example, when I'm having a really shitty day to like stay in bed all day. Some people do that to cope or whatever, you know. I do this and some other things, but this is actually sort of a big thing for me. In fact, I'm going to steal a line that I got from someone named Allie who lives in the States, who works in the field and was a recent guest. And she says, I talk about suicide. I don't talk against suicide. I was like, I'm stealing that.

[00:06:35] Yeah. I'm using that. And it's accurate. Yeah, I would say, I mean, I'll be totally like more on... I mean, I think I'm always really honest, but we can all bullshit ourselves, right? So then it's like, well, I think I've been thinking more about the end of my life more recently, more lately. And one of the things that can tell you how important this podcast is to me is that probably the number one thing I think about when I think about that. Damn, I still have like 18 conversations I haven't edited. Oh, wow.

[00:07:03] I have to make sure I get those edited before I go anywhere. Not patting myself on the back. It's just like, that's like, this is like a really important part of my... Yeah. Yeah. It's scary, man. It's scary to really think about dying. But how does it feel for you? Scary and at the same time, kind of a relief. So yeah, sometimes one of them is bigger, like it's more scary. And I think, oh, well, no. And other times I think it will be a relief. So yeah.

[00:07:29] Yeah. Scary the process of dying? Because sometimes it can be painful or just the fact that you're not alive? I think the fact that I'm not alive, because I used to be really, really scared of death. I really remember the first time I realized what death was and I got very scared. Yeah. I think the not being here. Yeah. But at the same time, that sometimes feels like a better option. So yeah, it's weird contradiction.

[00:07:54] Is it? Yeah. No, not that is it weird or not weird. Is it a contradiction? Why are you in an Airbnb? Are you running from the Dutch police? No, not yet. No. I felt really bad. And I thought, let me just go to this random island and just be there for a day. I'm going back home tomorrow. Okay. And is home the capital? No, it's Denbos, which is way more to the south of Amsterdam.

[00:08:24] Okay. And let's be clear. Let's educate our audience. You're not necessarily from Holland. You're from the Netherlands. From the Netherlands. Because Holland wouldn't include where I'm from. So why do people make that mistake so often? I don't know. But I also don't really care. If it was like in the United States saying Texas or California. Yeah. But I think also a lot of people just think they equate the Netherlands just with Amsterdam. I've been to Amsterdam for many years. I did like it. It's a beautiful city.

[00:08:53] I probably saw some of the countryside when I was on the train, but this is going back years now. So how is it that you found this podcast? I just looked up suicide on Spotify and then you get there. Right. You get there pretty fast. But you know the next question, of course, right? Why was I looking up suicide on Spotify? You either are really smart or you've heard the podcast probably both. Yeah. Let's just say both. Yeah. Because I didn't feel very good and I thought I would like to hear.

[00:09:23] When I don't feel very good, I just want to see or hear people feeling in a similar way. I also do this a lot with film and TV. I watch a lot of film and TV. And I really like watching shows or movies where someone is feeling really bad when I'm feeling bad. Because then I kind of feel through what I'm seeing or hearing. Yeah. That's what I'm looking for at a moment like that. I think that's the biggest, if not the biggest, one of the biggest.

[00:09:50] The word isn't myth, but it's like, and it certainly doesn't apply to everybody. There are probably people out there. They probably don't find themselves on this podcast. So I don't hear or talk with them at length, but I have in my life where if someone's feeling that way, they actually like the opposite. Like I want to go to a park and there to be cotton candy and clowns or go watch a Disney movie, which by the way, Disney movies are layered. They're not always so, but you know. I mean, I still cry, so.

[00:10:16] Yeah. But I think that's in a really important space. I could see how someone's always spending time in that space. It can start to become hard and challenging and even scary, you know? Yeah. I think I do kind of go towards that too much. Yeah. Because when I'm feeling really bad, I think at some point you should stop watching those things or stop listening to some things. I don't even know what the hell I do. Anyway, it's not the Sean show, is it? No, I think it's great if it's a conversation.

[00:10:46] It's always a conversation, but I always still be Ezra focused. It's easier for me if it's going both ways. Do you think you'd make a good podcast host? You're doing great now and you're kind of host mode in some partial way. I don't mean like all the tech stuff. I'm just talking about a straight up conversation. Well, I do really like conversations. I work in hospitality and I just really love having random conversations with people who are sitting alone at a table or something and just getting to know where they're from. Do you work in a hotel?

[00:11:16] No, in a museum. Oh, okay. About a random pastry from my city. The museum is only about one pastry. The whole museum is about one pastry? Yes. Wait, what's it called? Impossible. That's the name of the pastry? Yeah. If you have a whole museum named after one pastry, that better be a really good pastry. And I don't really think it is. Oh my God.

[00:11:44] How does it have its own museum? It is very famous, the pastry. Because? Because other people like it. Me not so much. But I mean, I guess it's the same thing. We have roadside attractions here in the States, right? Off a highway where it's just like a big hot dog. Just based on one food. Yeah. Okay. So yeah, that's what we have. And it's beneath City Hall and it's in a very old building. So it is a nice place. Oh, that's cool.

[00:12:12] Is the museum itself, the building, is it shaped like the pastry? Please say no. No, because it's in the old City Hall building, but then in the basement. Really, it looks a little bit like a dungeon. So it's a pastry dungeon. Yeah. Yeah. That's great. Right? Because then you can tell people like, and this is where people were hanged. And now you get a boss of all. So that's the contradiction. Yeah.

[00:12:42] Now, I should have asked you, do you want to do this whole conversation in Dutch? You can? No, I can. I just want to know if you'd want to do it. I don't think it's a nice language. I don't really like that. Oh, Elizabeth said that. Sean didn't say that. I'm so sorry, fellow Dutch people. Hey, we're here to be honest. And sometimes we know that. And also, no, I don't speak Dutch, so we can't do it. It would be an awful conversation because I don't speak, I don't actually think I know

[00:13:10] one word in Dutch, but I'm going to ask one word in Dutch. And that is, how do you say the word suicide in Dutch? Yeah, you could say self-mort or suicida. Suicida. It's like cognate. Yeah, similar. Yeah. Okay. Is that a thing that people talk about in the Netherlands or is that kind of a hush-hush topic? I don't think it's talked about a lot. No, I think mental health is really getting some attention, mainly because the waiting times in mental health care are getting really, really long. So that's always an issue.

[00:13:40] You see it in the news and how for more complex problems, the waiting time can be longer. So that's annoying. I used to think of it as like a subset of mental health. You know, it's like, but it's almost its own thing. It's almost like a completely different. It's not, but it is in my mind. Like people talk about how we're so much more open in talking about mental health. Particularly in the United States, that's my main reference point. I don't have any like data to prove this, but I don't think we're talking more openly and honestly about suicide at all.

[00:14:09] I think that people are talking about how they need to be more open and honest about stuff. Right. It's mainly that conversation. Like it's like the pre-conversation. Yeah. Yeah. Now, I think people might be thinking, oh, you want to say that, Sean, that people aren't talking about suicide because then it makes your podcast look even better. Well, there might be some truth to that, but I don't, I mean, again, I hear a lot about talking against suicide. We might be playing with words here a little bit, but that, so yes, that, that is kind

[00:14:37] of talking about it, but I feel like we are just missing huge parts of it and huge people and people are part of that. And a lot of those people are the ones that fall in between the cracks and it's not little cracks. And we're not talking about 1%. We're talking about a huge, huge, huge number, man. Cause it's silence. Then how do you know who's suffering if they're not talking about, isn't that the greatest and cruelest irony? And I think you've mentioned that before that a lot of podcasts that are about mental health, they get mental health professionals. Right. Okay. Yeah.

[00:15:06] We've heard that before. Like we don't have to do this now, but one day tell me what you found when you looked up suicide and you tell me how many podcasts even focus on just suicide. You can even include lost survivors in that. It's going to be a short list. I don't care if it's in Dutch or English or anywhere. It's just not talked about much. No. But now hang on. If you want to talk about cats. I love cats. And you should, but there's a, you can find a lot of podcasts about cats. I'm sure. If you want to talk about- I mean, Cats the musical or Cats? Either or. You want to talk about music? You want to talk about cars?

[00:15:36] You want to talk about sports? You want to talk about, we have a long list of things where you get hundreds or thousands of podcasts. When was it that you found the podcast? When you were having that day and you're like, I'm going to see if there's a podcast out there that talks about suicide. I was trying to think of a date, but I don't- We don't need the hour or the minute here. We're just like- No, I know, but I think last year. Okay. And is that the first time you started feeling that way or have you been struggling with this stuff for a long time?

[00:16:05] No, I think a long time. I think from about 14, 15, I think. Was that the first time you thought about suicide? I think around 16, maybe. But like starting to feel bad around 14, 15, I think. At 16, the idea of suicide starts creeping in? Yeah. What do you do with that? Because that's pretty heavy, right? I don't do a lot with that. I mean, I started to cope with it in ways that are not the healthiest. Like a lot of people started cutting and having that kind of coping mechanism.

[00:16:33] But I never feel comfortable telling someone that I feel bad right now. I'm very comfortable saying, hey, two weeks ago I was feeling bad. But right now, I don't really want to say- So when it comes up, you just fake it?

[00:17:15] Yeah. My teacher found out that I was self-harming. And then I had to tell my mother, which I really hated. And I knew that she was going to worry about that. But also, there was a lot of stuff going on with my father and her divorce from him and him being an asshole. So when I told her, I was immediately like, but it's from a while ago. It's okay now. But I had to tell you, but it's okay now. And then she believed that. How many times in your life do you think you've said the following very short expression? But it's okay now.

[00:17:45] I think I've said that often. Not a memoir title, but it ain't bad. You know why it can't be a memoir title for you unless your life changes? And I don't know enough about this yet. Because it's not true. Yeah. It could still work, actually, as a memoir title. You get to decide, of course, ultimately. But we've got some things to discuss before we get there. So when you're 16 in this southern part of the Netherlands, not in Holland, which would

[00:18:12] have been now at least 10, 11 years ago, is your quote unquote asshole father still in the picture? Yes. At that point, I think I'm the only one speaking to him in my family. Is he in your home? I think at that time he was still in our home, but he was going to leave. But it was a very awkward time where he was looking for a place. That could be very awkward. Yes. So when you say you're the only one talking to him, so your mother not talking to him,

[00:18:41] do you have siblings? Yeah. I have a brother and two half sisters from my father's first family. Does his first wife think he's an asshole too, do you think? I think so, yes. Why do you think asshole men get a lot of women? I think because they can at first seem very charismatic and then you realize that he's probably a narcissist. That's the word that I was thinking that seems to come up. Yeah. That's my mom's diagnosis of him. I don't really like to diagnose people.

[00:19:11] But we also know, and this is not the Sean is a dating expert podcast, but the ladies don't really like the super nice guys. And that's a really deep, interesting thing to think about for me. Like it really is. It really is kind of weird. I don't know if I would say like in such a general statement, but they don't really like the nice guy. Yeah. Yeah. I think some. Some. I want to know what 16, what you do to deal with. So you're cutting up until that point.

[00:19:39] Got a little idea of what's going on at home a little bit. Just, just from what you shared about your dad is life hard. Are you mostly a good student? Do you start drinking? Are you, do you have a lot of friends? Give me a little overview of Ezra's life at that time. I am doing very well in school. I also feel like I have to do very well in school. I think I start to have no motivation for school. So then I have that weird perfectionism, but also can't really do anything. So it becomes more difficult, but I'm still doing well. I do have friends.

[00:20:09] Okay. Okay. Home life from what you've shared, not wonderful. Yeah. Well, I think it's because my father was very strict towards my brother who was not doing well in school and who was being a little bit more of a difficult child. He wasn't. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. The audience won't ever see the video. When Ezra said difficult, she did it in air quotes. So would you like. In my father's view, he was being a difficult child.

[00:20:33] If I look back at it now, I'm pretty sure it's just a father being emotionally abusive and then being extra strict towards one child. And a teenager being a teenager. Yeah. Yeah. Which is totally fair. But that caused me to try to be perfect because I didn't want to attract that same attention. Sure. My brother was getting. So. Not a pressure. Yeah. So that's why I was starting to be like, okay, I have to function. I have to do okay. So then I don't ruffle any feathers.

[00:21:02] Did you at that point in your life know if anyone in your family then or perhaps in the past had any like mental health issues, challenges, conditions? I think I wasn't that aware of it at that time. Maybe I was. I don't know. My mother has depression. So. Right. There's that. And my father also just not doing very well mentally. He's an asshole. We know what he is. Yeah. That's not the official term. And I don't know him. I don't know him. I'm not saying he's an asshole.

[00:21:31] I'm just saying what I hear. You can. You're allowed. So let's ask the big question. Have you tried to end your life? I'm inclined to say no. I've made preparations but then didn't go through with it. Okay. Because I got a bit scared. How many times has that happened? I'm going to say twice. I'm going to say when was the first time. That was around that time. Which we're talking about like around 16, 17 I think. Preparations means?

[00:21:58] So one time I thought I'm going to try to hang myself. So I had a rope and I was really bad at tying it the right way. But I tried. You have a rope in your bedroom? No. I was home alone. I don't really remember why. But I was home alone. So she's doing it in the living room. Well hang on a second. That's more than preparations. I don't know. I tried like the weight of it. Yeah. I don't know. I didn't go through with it. I didn't really know why.

[00:22:26] Maybe I was a little bit scared and I thought it was going to hurt very bad. If you get it wrong and maybe if you get it right. I don't know. I think it hurts. Yeah. I think either way. Yeah. And chances are probably you have no idea what you're doing. Yeah. 10 years ago Google exists. I mean if you want to. No I did look up how to make news but. Part of the preparations included the internet. So I would say that's like on the spectrum of preparation that's you know towards the pretty

[00:22:56] damn prepared. At some point you're doing the whole thing. You're like no I'm not going to do it. You're still home alone. It's like what do you like. What do you just like put the rope in a draw and then go out for a bike ride. Like what is. What do you do. It's a weird day you know. Yeah. It's a really weird day. I had friends over before I was going to do it and I was like oh this is like my last fun interaction. And then they left and then I thought okay I'm going to do it. Then I didn't. And then it's just a really weird feeling because you're like am I just going to go to bed now? This is so weird.

[00:23:26] Because we have to remember there's a reason why you want to do it. Yeah. Like that reason doesn't probably dramatically change just because you didn't do it. No. I mean you talk about home life stuff and pressure in school. Were there other things that you can specifically point to that led you to that day? Well I just think that I because I've also been in therapy and stuff and they say like never really got a clear diagnosis or something but they said maybe dysthymia. Is that a term? Yeah. Like that's like a light depression I believe.

[00:23:56] But then again I'm never really that honest with my therapist. If you're not honest with people then how in the world would I believe you're being honest with me? Because one of the reasons I thought that this would be a nice conversation is because it's like one of the only settings where I feel like I can be honest about the topic. Do you even know how to be honest Ezra? I do. I do. But. You've been practicing the not honest thing for a long time. Yeah.

[00:24:26] Now I believe you. I believe every word you're saying. One of the reasons I like this podcast because it's kind of a unique space where people can be honest and they can't be with people that they're really close with whether it's their parents or their friends or therapists even sometimes. It's like this. I don't even know what to call it. It's just like this weird. It's not weird. Weird in a good way space. Yeah. I wish we had more of them. When did you start going to therapy? 19. After this event. Yeah. And they give you a maybe diagnosis of dysthymia. Yeah.

[00:24:55] Based on partial truths. Yeah. Because she said because sometimes you feel meh. And I thought that was not a very good description of how I feel. Therapists. Not that a lot of them listen to this podcast. And I give I'm hard on them. And some of them are great. I understand why a mom or a dad would consciously or otherwise believe the bullshit. But a therapist's job is to see through the bullshit. You might even say that's the most important thing.

[00:25:23] Perhaps if not the most, one of the most important things is your patient, your clients often are not going to be honest for very understandable reasons. Your job. Now, if your therapist happens to be listening, I'm not ribbing on you. I know you're doing the best you can. You're probably very good at your job. No, I changed therapist. She wasn't very great. Oh, you got rid of her. Okay. But you're also probably really good at being dishonest sometimes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I make it difficult. That's I know that. Right, right, right. And then, I mean, at some point you just have to believe somebody.

[00:25:50] I mean, I'm sure I've had people on here that weren't entirely true, but it's like I believe them. Like there's no reason for me not to believe them. You try it 16 or 17-ish kind of plan, prepare with a rope. 19, you start therapy. You chase that therapist away. Not the first one, I'm betting. There's been at least two or three others since then. No, no, not that many. The first person I went to was someone attached to like your GP, but that's like not specialized or anything. Right. Naturally, I move on from that.

[00:26:20] And then I went to that therapist, which we're talking about now, and now I'm with someone else and she's great. She's great. What makes you great? I think maybe she understands that because with the one I went to before, she gave me like those homework things that you have to like think of a memory and write some stuff about it. But when I feel bad, I'm not going to do that. And then I come back and it's like, oh, you didn't do your homework. What are we going to do now? So I think that framework just didn't really work for me.

[00:26:48] She really wanted to have that structure, but that wasn't working for me. Yeah, no. She was really clinging on to that structure. So I think that's like naturally that doesn't really fit me. So I need to find someone else. And so now you have a therapist you like. Does that therapist know that you're talking to me? No. Does anybody know you're talking to me? No. You literally had to get on a boat and go to an island to make yourself feel okay about talking to me. Maybe. By the way, when Ezra says maybe, we know what it means.

[00:27:18] I'm not always lying. No, but like is this thing like a big secret? Does anybody know about the day with the rope? No. When's the second time that you were preparing? Well, the second time is just really small. That's just collecting baracetamol. Like stockpiling it? Yeah. For a day in the future? Yeah. How close did you come to taking them? Not that very close, but I think maybe it feels kind of comforting when you're kind of having it.

[00:27:48] Yeah. Just having that option. Right. And when was that? I'm going to say about two years ago. No, four years ago. Time. Yeah. Sorry. I'm really bad. Also, a lot of stuff from my childhood, I just don't remember. So about six, seven years go by. During the time between the rope and the meds or the stockpiling, like do you ideate a lot? Are you thinking about suicide fairly often? Yeah. It also goes with the cutting as well sometimes because then you feel like I could also just

[00:28:18] go deeper and then maybe that's that. Yeah, you could. Did you ever think about it? Seriously? I thought about it, but then I don't think I could do it that way. I don't know. I think I'm a bit too scared of that pain, which is rare because I am self-harming. And now it's a few years later. Do you still ideate with the same frequency or more or more intensely? I think more intensely. So a lay person like myself would think you're heading towards suicide. Yeah, maybe. I don't know.

[00:28:46] Now this is the time where I push back. You know what, Ezra? When you say maybe, I don't know if I'm, what do you mean? Slightly more towards yes. You're good at this. I'm not judging you at all because I think, and I'm not saying this applies to you, but to say you're suicidal, it's a big deal. Yeah. Especially because I've never, never talked about it before. So that makes it also extra weird.

[00:29:16] You were in spaces in which they were self-harming and maybe even thinking about it, never talked about it. Yeah. I think then I start to focus on them and just ask about them. Have you ever lost anyone to suicide? No. The hardest question I'll ask, which I don't ask everybody is straight up, why might you want to die? Because I don't really see a future for myself. A future or like a certain kind of future? I don't really know how to describe it. How are you interpreting it? Maybe I can say if I think.

[00:29:45] No, when someone says I don't see a future, it means I don't see a future in which I want to be alive in it. And I don't think I'll be, and insert any word you want, happy, content, at peace, or even something not so shiny and fluffy and sweet, but just even, and I'll be okay. And I'll feel okay. Or I won't feel all these things that I always feel that I don't like. That's how I personally interpret it. Well, yeah, I think that's how I meant it. Okay. Hey, shit, man.

[00:30:13] I gotta work here. I'm so sorry. I don't... No, no, no, no. It's fine. It's fine. It's fine. It's fine. Do you think if you were doing this in Dutch, it would be easier? I think harder. Really? Yeah. I think because in a different language, it doesn't feel as real. I think a lot of words feel harsher when you say it in your own language. Yes. So you've been ID for over 10 years. You haven't had any long breaks where you weren't? No, I don't think so. Did you...

[00:30:40] When you finished high school, did you go on to further studies? Yeah. At first, I became an au pair. Terrible decision. Bad choice. Why did I think when I was 18, I could take care of three children? That's dumb. It's a tough one. And then I started studying to be a nurse for two and a half years. And then I realized I did not like nursing. Hey, this is how we find out what we want to do, by what we aren't enjoying or aren't good at, right?

[00:31:09] I mean, now I'm sure that I would never want children, which I was already sure about. Okay, okay, okay. And then was there something else before you got the museum gig? Yeah, that's like a part-time job. I'm studying film science. Film? What does that mean? It's more so about the history of film, politics for different countries and film in that certain country or also film analysis, but not really the making of it. Oh, so we don't need to give you a memoir title. We need to give you a film title. Yes, please.

[00:31:39] No, I'm not there yet, but It's Okay Now isn't the film title. No. Because no one's going to see it. It's not strong enough, man. Okay. Also, like, you know that people like drama and tension. Yeah. The opposite of that is It's Okay Now. Well, I like horror a lot. Can it be a horror title? Do not let your imagination be stifled at all with me here on this podcast. Can it be a horror film? Of course. But my question would be, why a horror film?

[00:32:09] I like the genre. I think it's great. But we're applying this to your life. This is your film. Okay. Well, it's a suicide podcast, so it's not really a horror film. Touché. Touché. Touché. Yeah, Sean. Wake up. Right. Sometimes I forget. Sometimes I just think I'm having a good shot. So in our movie, we have to hear the words, but no, it's not true. Mm-hmm. Because that really does reflect who you are sometimes. But not right now.

[00:32:35] You are on the record in a random island in the Netherlands talking to me, who happens to be in Mexico. How weird. Through the miracle of technology. And you can tell me, true or false, you are not okay. Yeah. Yeah, what? Do I have to say it? Say it in Dutch, man. Say it in Dutch if you have to. No, say it in English. I'm not okay. Okay. So I'm not being like a shrink or a therapist. Yeah. I mean, I guess it's a given.

[00:33:04] When you're ideating and you're continuing to ideate, and you just said earlier that it's actually getting more intense, that is as clearly I'm not okay as you can be. Mm-hmm. Now, when you looked for this podcast and found this podcast, I think sometime last year, and then your words finally had the courage to actually rather recently reach out, so we connected and made this appointment or meeting and we're talking. Like, when you say the intensity, are you planning again? Yes. In a different way or in the same way as last time or times?

[00:33:34] In a similar way, but then just, yeah, it builds, but then... It builds? No, no, pills. Just medication. So right now you have how many pills that you've stockpiled? Over 100? Yeah, close to. Where do you put them? Well, they're in my bag. Right now? Yeah. So they're always with you? No. Did you go to that island to kill yourself? I don't know. Hold on. You went and booked a one-night reservation at an Airbnb.

[00:34:03] You could extend it, of course, I'm sure, but you're probably due back at work or people will be expecting you. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. You have the pills in your purse. Mm-hmm. Why did you take them there? There's a lot of pressure building, I think, and I feel like if I'm going to do it, I'm going to do it relatively soon. So I think that's why right now I'm having it close with me. Right. So that at all times you never know.

[00:34:30] So it's not impulsive, but in the moment you'll make a decision. Yeah. Sorry, I'm being very vague. I'm sorry. Sorry. You're not being vague. You're just trying to talk about something that's very difficult. Yeah, okay. But I'm going to push you a little bit. So did you go there to talk with me and potentially end your life? Because right now it's what, like eight o'clock there? It's ten. Oh, so you're eight hours ahead of me. All right. So we'll talk for a little while longer. You're not going to stay up forever, probably, unless you are a late night type of person.

[00:35:00] Also that, yeah. And then you're going to go to bed and then you're going to wake up and then you got some ferry or something to catch, right? Yeah. But I haven't booked that. I'm going to see what time I'm going to go back. I mean, they already have a specific time you need to be checked out by, probably. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Ten. So I don't imagine like this is on your, like vague. Yeah. You're being a little vague, but I don't think it's because you're trying to not be honest. I think it's just, you're not sure exactly what to say because it's, this stuff is hard to figure out. No, no, no.

[00:35:29] It's just difficult when I'm not entirely sure of how I'm feeling, what I'm doing. So it's also difficult to give a very clear answer because I'm still thinking when you're asking me the questions. You had said that it's hard to talk about. So this being, you know, being my situation makes it a little easier as opposed to other people. Well, yeah, because it's just nice to be able to talk about something that I can't talk about with anyone else. Ever.

[00:35:58] For me, it feels kind of impossible to tell people. And it's on your mind every day. Yeah. And it's not something that is on your mind, but you don't feel like you need to get it out. That's hard. If I asked your friends or perhaps some people in your family, maybe even your therapist, Ezra is thinking about taking her life. How surprised would they be? Not entirely surprised because I have had a lot of stuff happen. And people know that I've self-harmed.

[00:36:28] So that's, I think then it's not that big of a leap. Yeah. I guess it depends on how you define big, but sure. Was there stuff that happened in your twenties, whether it was when you were in school or working, something that happened to you? Events, external events that amplified this? Yeah. Well, I think just stuff with my father, because he was being just a horrible person. Yeah. And I had to cut contact with him and he died. Well, I've not been in contact with him. Did he die naturally?

[00:36:58] Well, he was kind of old. He was, I think, 79. He was quite fertile. Yeah. Yeah. It went really badly with his first family. And then he thought, I can do this again. I'm going to do a really shitty job of being a father again. Do you think he knew he was a shitty dad? Yeah. Because he said to my mother, I shouldn't have more children. He knew it. He could verbalize it.

[00:37:25] But yeah, so he died, I think, a little over a year ago now. But then before that, there was a time where I wasn't in contact with him and where I had to block him because he was sending very mean messages. So that's kind of like quite stressful. At the moment right now, my mother is getting, she's hospitalized for her depression. So that's also a thing. She's getting ECT now. Oh, she's getting ECT. Yeah. So do you visit her there? Yeah.

[00:37:52] And she comes home because I still live at home because it's impossible to find a place. And she comes home on Saturdays. But yeah. Have you ever stayed in a hospital? No. No, because I've never. You don't talk about it. Because it's okay. Are we any closer to a film title for you? We just know the genre. That's all we know. I don't know. It's your job. No, it's not my job because the job requires to get paid. So we can't use the word job.

[00:38:20] We know it's a horror film. Do we know beyond the title? Are there any scenes in there that have to be in there? Like non-negotiable director, these must be in there. It's my story. It's a very interesting question. Don't think I've ever asked it before. So things from my life that would be very important to put in the movie. Yes. I'm giving you two off the bat. Right now, I'm giving you three that have to be in the movie. Ready? Okay. Well, these are pretty straightforward and obvious and predictable.

[00:38:50] One, rope, two, meds, three, this conversation better be in the fucking movie. You're not getting this shit released anywhere. You understand, Biazra? Yeah. We actually, I don't use the video, but we have video. Like it's probably really low level, not the quality that, you know. No, but you have those horror films that are entirely taking place on a laptop. Absolutely.

[00:39:17] Anything else that stands out that has to be in the movie that doesn't have a name yet? It's a horror movie, but we're not sure why. It doesn't have to be a horror movie. I just like them. We'll make it a comedy. Can it be a fun memory? It's your movie. Okay. Well, in the town where we used to live when our family was still a happy family, similar to Halloween, you go trick-or-treating. And that was just an amazing vibe.

[00:39:43] Like just fire everywhere in those, I don't know, fire pits. And you just walk around with your family. And that was fun. Wow. And that's pretty Dutch, I think. If you have them singing in Dutch, that works. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So why did you want to include that? Just because it was a fun memory? Yeah, because that was nice. I always felt like there was such a shift in my childhood. Things felt like, oh, it's going pretty well and it's nice.

[00:40:10] And then me feeling bad, but also just stuff in the family, which is obviously affecting me and how I'm feeling. So fire. Fire? Fire is an interesting idea, element, concept. And relevant. Yeah, and I've also burned myself before. So I think that's in that way also. Burned yourself intentionally. Yeah. Another way instead of cutting? Yeah. So that's, I mean, if we're using fire.

[00:40:40] Right. This is going to be one of these things that people around the table are going to be discussing at length until someone signs off on it and says, yeah, this is it. Yeah. We've got the title. We've got the scenes. We've got to get production going. Yeah. But we have to make sure Ezra's still alive. Where's Ezra? And here's how one might know. Pink and purple pill question. As most of my listeners would know, is a not real pill that if you swallow it, you go to sleep gently and softly and don't wake up and there's absolutely no pain and nobody

[00:41:10] knows it's a suicide. What do you do with it here in late May, 2026? I think I take it. Right now? Yes. Before we say goodbye, because you said you wouldn't do that. No, not before I say goodbye. After. You would get off with me and then that would be an interesting period of time before you take it. Like, what are you doing or thinking, I wonder, you know? Kind of a strange, weird space or feeling. Yeah. Would you make any calls? Texts?

[00:41:39] No, I don't think so because I don't want anyone to feel guilty for not realizing anything. Because I've had a friend who attempted suicide and she sent me a text beforehand and I didn't understand. I just thought she was going to bed really early. She said goodnight. And yeah, I felt very bad afterwards because I thought I could have realized something, but I didn't. From goodnight? Right? Yeah. I think she said something like that she really appreciates our friendship and that she's

[00:42:08] going to bed early and goodnight. Something like that. But she survived. Yeah. But I think I don't want to do that to anyone. They could be left with questions like, what if I realized what that was? And then they stop you. Which, by the way, they couldn't in this case because you're on an island and it's a pill and it could work pretty fast. But, okay. So I understand the premise of what you're saying, the idea, of course. Are there, you wouldn't be able to hear your episode?

[00:42:38] Yeah. What about that? I think you're like a 50-50 on if you're going to actually listen to your own episode. Do you think most people listen to their episode? If I did a better job of letting them know when it was coming out, more would. But I'd say the majority probably do. I've only been on a couple podcasts myself and I didn't listen to that. I do hate listening to my own voice, but I think that's a universal thing. I think so. I've just had to get used to it because when you edit so much, you have to hear your own voice. Yeah.

[00:43:08] I don't know if I'd listen. I think I don't feel like I'm coming across as very honest and great. So I don't know. Well, I know for sure you're not sharing it with people. No. You're not blasting it on TikTok or Instagram. You go, hey, I was on this podcast called Suicide Noted. You should listen. It's conversations with people who have tried to take their lives or have thought about it chronically. No. That's not as much a jam. No.

[00:43:36] Do you have or have you thought about any myths or misconceptions that you want to dispel that are particularly annoying? Not really. I think it would be nice if it would be because people get very scared if you talk about stuff like suicide. So that makes it. I mean, for me especially, we've noticed. I don't really talk about it because I don't want people to get worried or feel some type of way. So I don't. You have some with me. Yeah.

[00:44:05] No, I've shared a lot with you. Right. My mom once found a letter because I had written a goodbye letter. Oh. But once again, it was very easy for me to just say, no, that was like more of a cathartic thing and just wanted to write some stuff out of my mind and everything's fine. It's okay now. Yeah. Yeah. Even when the topic comes up. Deflect, we say, or just change the subject. Yeah.

[00:44:35] Do you think you'll make it to your birthday? 28th birthday, I believe. No, I don't think so. No. No. What's that like to be less than six, seven months away from not being alive? I mean, I asked you a similar question earlier, so I don't know if it could be the same answer, but I just wonder. Well, it also goes hand in hand with the topic of this whole conversation is just not really being honest with people. Well, that's really starting to be kind of heavy as well because, yeah.

[00:45:04] So, for example, like, I haven't told anyone I'm here. You have reasons for not talking about it, but then it compounds because the not talking about it itself becomes another reason to not want to be around. Yeah. That becomes another thing that compounds and amplifies it and makes it harder and heavier. I think so. How crazy would it be if you just literally were like, all right, here's the episode. I want everyone in my life to listen to it. I'm not going to be around. I'm going to go somewhere. Listen, like, what would it take?

[00:45:32] I'm not asking you to do it, but like, how unlikely is that scenario? Or, because I wonder, would it do more damage or do potentially good? I think for me, it would be very uncomfortable because then every time when I'm bullshitting, everyone knows that I'm bullshitting. Yeah. I know that I could be lying. Lying, I don't really like that word. More like deflecting. It's like interesting how people, so it's not just you, right? They don't want to worry people. Or maybe they say, I don't want to be a burden.

[00:46:00] Yet they'll kill themselves or try. And that's interesting to me because I think 998 or more people out of a thousand would rather be worried about somebody than them being dead. It's not a judgment. It's just an observation, really, like, wow, that's just an interesting dynamic. So maybe no 2027 for you. If that's the case, I hope the Netherlands wins the World Cup. That's coming up, just so that you get to see it. I don't care. I don't care if you don't care. I just want them to win.

[00:46:29] I like the orange uniforms. Do you ever wish that 16-year-old or 23-year-old planning, preparing had changed differently and you had gone through with it and you were just gone? Not necessarily because there's also been a lot of stuff that happened where it was maybe good to be around. I mean, like, let's be straight about it. You're going to miss out on some shit. That's part of it when you're not here. Yeah, but more like for those people. I'm not encouraging, just to be clear, but there's never a perfect time probably, right?

[00:46:59] No, that's true. What else do you want to talk about? I don't know. I've just kind of actively made it so that there's some stuff in my life that isn't really going well. And I've just thought, well, I don't really have to deal with that because I might just not be here anymore. That's not really a thing. I don't know. For my thesis for school, I should have been writing that. I haven't done that. I have nothing. Also kind of feels like a deadline in a way.

[00:47:26] Like at some point, people are going to notice that I'm not graduating. All right. I know. I don't want to get too crazy with the memoir film title, but you said one thing that's interesting because it's like a double entendre. Just one thing? Oh, sorry. No, you said a few things, but one in particular. A deadline away. Why? Think about the levels of that statement. Yeah. Now you understand why people call me a genius. Now you get it. Now you get it. Yeah.

[00:47:53] But you also, you were kind of very much relying on me for help with the film title. Yeah. But how do you know I don't do that with others? Well, maybe no, I don't. You hear edited versions of everything. You never hear the full conversation. Yeah, yeah, yeah. My podcast is a lot like your life, Ezra. No one hears the full conversation. They hear edited versions. That's the same with you. Is it difficult to edit them? Do you have? Incredibly time consuming. It's not difficult. So you try to leave the conversation kind of like as it flowed? Yeah.

[00:48:23] Oh, of course. I mean, the whole goal with editing is that you just want people not to stop listening. You've heard really bad podcasts where you can hear all the cuts. It's like, I just, ah, stop, pause. Well, I guess it's different now with YouTube. Like with most movies, you know, there's a process. Like if it's that bad, it's not getting through to the end. Now, because anybody can have a podcast, there are so many that are just like, I bet the majority of the podcasts, but I mean like the great majority have like fewer than three episodes. Really? Yeah. Yeah.

[00:48:51] Like people start to like big idea, a lot of motivation. And then they're like, holy shit, this is a lot of work. Yeah. I think a lot of people look at podcasts and think I can do that. Oh, for sure. I have smart and fun ideas. Yeah. Yeah. They don't. Once in a while, you got, there's just a few things you got, you got to have a format, but you know, that could develop over time. You can change it. You got to have something that people give a shit about. But I'm telling you, the thing is, I've worked with a few people who wanted to start a podcast and I was like, you got to really be into the thing you're talking about.

[00:49:20] I'm telling you, it's a lot of work and you're going to quit unless you really like it or you feel a real need for it. Then you could say that about almost anything, but it's hard because what happened is unless you were like part of a studio or a group of people, like it's a lot of alone time. So you're sitting there like, you know, five hours in editing. It's like, I get a real kick. It's always Mondays and some Thursdays where the episodes come out. So I, I love that moment. So I can like, you know, dopamine or whatever you call, like I'm waiting for it.

[00:49:50] So all the work, I love the conversations. I don't hate the editing. I don't love it. It's just part of the, it's necessary. And then I like that there's a product and I like that people can hear it around the world. A dead line away, but it's okay. Yeah. I mean, but it's okay. I don't. I want the attention to just sit there. I want the double meaning to sit there. I'm not married to horror movie. You can decide what we don't even need a genre. It could be multi-genre.

[00:50:20] No, no labels. I want to know not how the story or the movie begins, though that scene is always an important choice. When our family was still a happy family. Also a great quote. Might start then, could even end then, unlikely. But the question is, what's the final scene of that movie? Tough one. This is a tough one. I mean, the final scene is going to be open to interpretation as it's going to be for. Well, how like, what do you want?

[00:50:49] Like super new agey, independent type. Like, what is the scene? Anything's interpreted. Anything can be interpreted. The problem with making anything is you got a gazillion choices. This is what's hard. Could be me on a boat. Because on the way here, I was talking with a lady on the boat and she was asking questions. What are you doing here? And I was like, I don't know. But I don't know what to say. It's not always true. You do. You just don't want to say it. It's fine. I've accepted that. Well, she was like, what am I going to do? Tell this random old lady?

[00:51:17] I mean, you don't have to be specific about like, I am going to be talking about suicide. But you can be like, I'm just taking a day off and I'm going to, I'm on a podcast actually. I don't know. I'm not telling you what to say. So wait, if it ends with you on a boat, which I love by the way, now I do kind of want to know how it begins. Are we going to go with the boat boat full circle? Well, I used to live very close to a canal. So there were a lot of boats passing through.

[00:51:47] Just because you have to live near a canal? Well, no, wait. I've been here to this island before on a family vacation. So we have options. So what we would need to do right now is do some storyboarding. And then also we would have to find you in the space where you're in the most super honest, beyond transparent, no bullshit mode Ezra's ever been in. Yeah. So six cocktails deep and then. All right. So, okay. Are you a drinker? Yeah.

[00:52:17] Did you have one or two before we started? Yeah. Well, how many is one or two? Two. Two wines. But you're not always honest. What does two actually mean? Two wines and a cocktail. And what was in the cocktail? It was a watermelon cocktail. What was the alcohol in the cocktail? It was, oh, I don't know. I didn't read it. I think vodka. I don't know. Would you say it was a, what we say in the United States, it's a healthy pour? Like more than a typical amount. You would put in a little more vodka? Well, I didn't make it myself.

[00:52:46] It was on a, at a restaurant thingy. Oh, it was at a restaurant. But now you have some there. No, now I have water. So you drink, but are you, like, is it a problem? I think, yeah, sometimes because I've started drinking in hopes that when I was drunk, I would be able to kill myself. Oh, how has this not come up? I don't know. So I think that's always kind of been the intention when I drink, at least in the beginning.

[00:53:13] And now it's just sometimes nice to have some alcohol. For sure. You're talking to somebody who drinks regularly. I agree with you. I'm not encouraging anybody. I'm just telling you my life. And so is Ezra. Ezra, in the Netherlands, anything else we want to discuss before we get back to our lives? Yeah, I'm curious. You said at the beginning you aren't doing very great. Correct. What is the impact of a conversation that we're having right now? Oh, that's a good question.

[00:53:43] I think generally, and it applies here, that because I think this work's important and I like it, and I think I'm pretty good at it, that it tends to put me in a better space. My day's probably better because of this, but it's still temporary, right? I mean, everything's temporary, but it doesn't last. But yeah, I mean, I usually, I don't know if the words enjoy, but I like the conversations. And I've had, you know, you've heard the podcast, but all kinds of guests, all kinds of conversations.

[00:54:13] And, you know, 99% of them I really enjoy. I'm not giving you the 1%. And it's for weird reasons too. It's not like, it's never, ever. And this is what I want you to hear. There's everyone out there who thinks, oh, but I don't really have enough to say, or I'm not interesting. It's never been that. It's been, and there's only like a few examples. Somebody's like incredibly arrogant or has like a monologue where I can't even ask a question. Or, you know, but it's never like, oh, this person is boring.

[00:54:42] Like for me, people aren't boring. I get why someone might think that about themselves, but that's never the issue for me. Sometimes even I've had people who barely talk and I'm like, this is an interesting challenge. I've had people that go on and on and on and on. And that can be hard, but there's ways around it. Well, I think it's a credit to you that you can make through a conversation, make any, anyone's story interesting. That's why you should let me direct your movie. Once I get like the million dollar budget.

[00:55:10] Which is probably not happening in 2026. And you said that you might not make it to the end of the year. So the movie's just going to stay an idea. We'll see what happens. Well, I'll give you the rights. You can just do it. Damn. I don't know if I want that responsibility, but we'll put that out. We'll shelve that and discuss it at a later time. What do you think the reason is for people to change their name? Is your name Ezra? My name is Ezra. Yeah. Oh, okay. Why do they change their name?

[00:55:39] Yeah, no, I mean like, because if people who know you are hearing it, they're going to recognize your voice. But just your first name is not really doing it all. Like John calls himself Jay or John calls himself Larry. Yeah. That maybe people won't hear it. I mean, they can't guarantee that their friend's not going to hear it because who knows, they might stumble upon it. But chances are. Chances are they have no intention of sharing it with people, think no one's going to find it, which they probably won't. Well, you know, they have other reasons that might have to do with their job or. Yeah, okay, yeah.

[00:56:08] Some sort of, they might be involved with some sort of in court with their wife or husband and who knows, with custody. Oh, no, that makes sense. I just thought that when it's just your first name. And sometimes people have changed location. But they don't, like, I don't like them making sense. So if you said, I don't want to use the Netherlands, it would be weird if you're like, just say Argentina. I'll do it if you want me to. Can we just say, like, Europe? Yeah, so that it's still accurate. It's still accurate, but, like, it's not as identifying.

[00:56:36] But to say, like, a completely made-up place. If you've seen some of them, they'll be like the Milky Way. So, but we're not going to say Ezra on the island. We're going to just put the Netherlands. Yeah, that's fine. You can also say the island, but that's Ter Schelling. And I don't know if you know how to write that. Oh, fuck. I don't know. They'll hear that you're on an island. They don't need to read it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Clear enough. Country is fine. All right, we good? I think so. I hope the rest of your night is nice. I hope you enjoy your beverages.

[00:57:05] Should you have a couple more before sleep? Maybe. And get back safe to your hometown and your museum gig and... Great. Well, thanks for the opportunity to have a real conversation. Because that's very nice. Well, thank you very much for having one with me. I appreciate it. And that's all. Have a good night. That's all. Okay. Bye-bye. Bye. As always, thanks so much for listening and all of your support.

[00:57:35] Special thanks to Elizabeth in the Netherlands. Thanks, Ezra. If you are a suicide attempt survivor or ideator and you'd like to talk, please reach out. I'd love to talk with you. Hello at suicidenoted.com. Friendly reminder, if you'd like to help, you can rate us on Apple. And if you'd like to make a tax-deductible donation, you can find the link in a bunch of places. If you're not sure and can't, message me. I'll get it to you without a problem. However you are involved, I appreciate it very much. Thanks for listening.

[00:58:03] And that's all for this week's episode. Stay strong. Do the best you can. I will talk to you soon.