Emma in Colorado

[00:00:00] down the road. I think I will try again and hopefully succeed just because I cannot picture myself being happy no matter if I accomplish everything I want to do. Find the right person. I don't know if I've just won at life. I can still see myself like sad and still alone and then just be like, oh, fuck it. Bye.

[00:00:44] Hey there, my name is Sean and this is Suicide Noted. On this podcast, I talk with suicide attempt survivors so that we can hear their stories. Every year around the world, millions of people try to take their own lives and we almost never talk about it. And when we do talk about it, many of us, well, we're not very good at it. So one of my goals with this podcast is to have more conversations and hopefully better conversations with attempt survivors in large part to help more people in more places hopefully feel a little less shitty and a little less alone.

[00:01:12] Now, if you are a suicide attempt survivor and you'd like to talk, please reach out. Our email is hello at suicidenoted.com and I would love to speak with you. You can check the show notes to learn more about this podcast, including our membership, Noted Network, among other things. And thank you to Maria for your donation. I appreciate it. A reminder that you can leave a comment on Spotify or message us via email or social media.

[00:01:39] I want to hear your ideas for memoir titles, especially this week. Also love for you to check out the poll that is also in Spotify. We are voting on our logo. We are getting closer and closer. Tell me what you think. Finally, we are talking about suicide on this podcast and my guests and I don't typically hold back. So please take that into account before you listen or as you listen. But I do hope you listen because there's so much to learn.

[00:02:04] Today, I'm talking with Emma. Emma lives in Colorado and she is a suicide attempt survivor. Hey, Emma. Here we are. Here we are. And you're in a car, which is a lot of people in cars. Mm-hmm. Snowing in Colorado. Emma. So you're in a park somewhere? Parking lot? Where are you at? Um, I am parked in front of my work. So I hope I don't see anyone come out and make eye contact with my boss or something. What kind of work do you do?

[00:02:34] I'm a music teacher. Oh, how nice. Do you teach adults or children? Um, all ages. Does anybody at your... So if someone were to come out, whether it's your boss or someone else, they saw Emma in her car and they'd be like, what is she doing in her passenger seat? Number one. They'd be like, what is she doing? But then they would like wave. Do you think anybody in that place would have any idea what you're talking about? I hope not. Would everybody be surprised if they learned what you were talking about? I think so. Just in general, that's not really something you bring up.

[00:03:02] It's true. Maybe if you worked in a, I don't know, like suicide crisis hotline, maybe, maybe. Maybe. I think that would be more fitting. What are the main instruments that you play or teach? Um, I teach violin, viola, cello, piano, voice, and music theory. Wow. That's a lot of instruments, man. You must have been studying that from a young age. Um, not as young as I would have liked. Okay.

[00:03:29] I started when I was around 10. I begged my mother to let me play the violin for years before that. And she was like, absolutely not. Really? And then the, the school, the elementary school I was going to had like a, an orchestra and a two for one deal with students or with, with siblings. And so my mom, uh, made my sister pick an instrument too, so she could get the discount. So that's how I got started. You like your work? Mm-hmm. I do. I like it a lot.

[00:03:58] Nice. How would you describe the snow that I'm seeing there? Sure. It's, it's more of a slow, big flake kind of snow. Okay. That's the best kind of flake. I agree. All right. So how, how do we find ourselves here, Emma, talking about such, such things as suicide?

[00:04:15] Well, I reached out because I think it's going to be kind of cathartic for me and therapeutic in a way to share some things and relate to somebody and maybe even relate to plenty of people who I'm not speaking to at the moment who have experienced similar things. And it's, I mean, it's not something we can even talk about with a therapist even. I mean, in fear that you'll be hospitalized and all that fun stuff. Well, have you experienced that yourself? A little.

[00:04:45] Briefly. All right. Well, we'll get to that. How old are you, Emma? I look 16, but I'm 21. You have a suicide attempt? Yes. I have three main ones. As I was, I was trying to group my thoughts before doing this and I was like, oh, I guess I have a lot more than I thought. You said main ones. What does that mean? See, that's something I've been trying to define myself. I'm not entirely sure. I guess by main one, I mean,

[00:05:14] the ones I was most serious about and the closer I got. 21 years old, three main attempts, others mixed in. Do you remember how old you were when you started thinking about suicide? I don't. I remember those thoughts always being there. Oh, really? Even as a little kid?

[00:05:37] Yeah. I don't know why, but it's just like, I don't know. I was going about my day in preschool and I'm just thinking, hmm, wish I were dead. Do you think a three or four year old, like, did you think that way or is that a little bit older, Emma, thinking back on it? Both. But I do, I have very specific memories of being very young and just thinking, God, I wish I weren't here. Yeah. Wow. And is it even worth asking why?

[00:06:04] Yeah, I suppose so. I mean, there's plenty of reasons. When I was 15 or 16, I was diagnosed with some sort of serotonin deficiency. So my brain just produces little to no serotonin, which is really fun. Yeah. When I look back on my early childhood, I remember being happy briefly or having moments of joy, but then pulling myself out of it very quickly just by reassessing my reality.

[00:06:33] My parents divorced when I was very young. Oh my gosh. I still have very clear memories of like my parents screaming at each other and kicking each other out of the house. I'm like, hmm, that's not normal. I remember when I was in, I think, first grade, so maybe eight years old, give or take. Like my father, he dropped me off at like a class birthday party. And it's not like a birthday party I would have been invited to if it wasn't required that they hand out invitations to all the kids in the class.

[00:07:03] They just want feelings to be hurt. So. Feelings being hurt is probably good to learn. Anyway, go on. Birthday party and there was like this big inflatable slide and I curled up and I slid down the slide and I was like, oh, this is great. And I remember thinking, this is the best day ever. And then I stopped myself immediately and I'm thinking to myself, no, it's not. Why would this be the best day ever? I'm just sliding down a slide. I still don't have my parents.

[00:07:29] Like, I don't know when I'm going to see my dad again. What is happiness? It's like so superficial. Do you ever find the answer to that, Emma, before we move on? Um, nope. Okay. Yeah. I think a lot of people are searching for that shit. Maybe it's the wrong question we're asking ourselves. So you're asking yourself at a young age, what is happiness? Your parents split for as long as you can remember. You've been thinking about not being here. How old were you when you first attempted, whether it was a quote main one or not?

[00:07:59] My first main one, I think I was about eight. Okay. As I was thinking back on it, this main one didn't even register as an attempt to me until like a couple weeks ago when I was trying to group my thoughts. Um, it's like, oh, I guess that was, that was one. Um, and before that, I mean, there were like brief moments where I'd be in the bath and I'm like, I'm just going to hold my head under until I die.

[00:08:27] Don't know how many times that happened, but things like that. The eight year old one wasn't, it was the bath? No, I ran straight at, um, a third story window hoping to splat. Obviously it, it didn't work. I was eight years old. I weighed like 45 pounds. What are you saying? You didn't get through the window? No, unfortunately. No, I guess not. Like school, elementary school.

[00:08:52] No, it was, um, my apartment at the time where my mom, sister and I were living. Did anybody see little eight year old Emma trying to run through a window? My older sister was there. We had gotten in some sort of argument. I wear glasses because I'm an elderly person, so I can't see. But I took off my glasses and I threw them against the wall and I was like, I'm done. And I don't even remember what set me off so much.

[00:09:20] But after that, my, my sister was like, dumb bitch, why'd you throw your glasses against the wall? You need those. And she walked away and then I ran out the window. So you went at it? I went at it. If it had broken, you would have been really hurt. I, I probably wouldn't have died. It was just three stories. Mm, yeah, maybe, maybe. You have a major serotonin deficiency. You're kind of blind, your words, and kind of deaf, your words. Eight years old. I've never heard that.

[00:09:50] I've been doing this for a long time. Never heard somebody trying to run out of a, well, maybe a couple of times. Yeah, not, once or twice. Yeah, not common, not common. To try to run through a window because adults know it's probably not going to work and you're going to get cut out. But an eight-year-old doesn't, maybe he doesn't think that way. Yeah, it would have been smarter to, I mean, open the window first and then worry about the screen. It was more of a, in hindsight, a bit of an impulsive move? Yeah. So all the while, you're sometimes in the bathtub thinking about just dunking your head and

[00:10:19] trying to stay under water. Mm-hmm. You're living with your mom and your sister. Mm-hmm. Do you see your dad at all? The time I saw him like a couple times a month, I think. Like some weekends when he would bother to show up, most of the time he didn't. So at this point, I haven't seen him since I think my freshman year of high school. Oh, you have not seen your father in many years is what you're saying? Yeah. Yeah. It just kind of fizzled out as I got towards high school and then I saw him one last time and then I just haven't seen him since. Do you have a relationship with your mom?

[00:10:49] I do. Mm-hmm. Sister? Yeah, we work at the same place, my sister and I. Really? Mm-hmm. A musician's family? Yeah. My mom was disappointed at first. What did she want? Like lawyers or doctors? Yep. You got like a super high achieving family? Nope. Yeah. My mom went to college and she got a degree in, I think, psychology, which is kind of funny. And she became a personal trainer and has been running her own business.

[00:11:19] And after my parents split, she's been, well, when I was growing up, she was working two or three jobs at a time while running her own business. Wow. Yeah. So she was not around and it was kind of my responsibility to take care of my sister, which was odd because she's older. I think because of the serotonin deficiency, I matured a lot quicker. Yeah. I don't know. It was interesting. We had an interesting dynamic growing up.

[00:11:47] That was major attempt number one, right? Eight years old? Mm-hmm. That was major one. What's major attempt number two? 14 or 15. The summer between freshman and sophomore year of high school. I had just come back from a tour with a symphony I was in. We toured Central Europe. Are you like a world class musician? No. It's a big world. Are you a nationally known musician? Not quite. Maybe locally, I suppose.

[00:12:15] I was a prodigy. When I started to play the violin, I just picked it up really quickly. And then I played with symphonies and I played at, do you know Red Rocks? Played at Red Rocks with some well-known groups accompanying them. And so I've been very lucky with that. Right. Okay. So it's the summer and you just came back from a tour. Mm-hmm. What happens? I'm jet-lagged.

[00:12:41] After I've toured Central Europe, it was amazing, but it was so miserable the entire time. The entire time I was thinking like, goddammit, I just want to die. And I was looking at this beautiful view of the Swiss Alps from this hotel. And I'm again thinking, I might want to just take a dive off that balcony. Nothing's stopping me. I mean, I didn't want to ruin the tour for everyone else. So, okay.

[00:13:10] I'll wait until I get home. And so when you got home, what'd you do? I went for the arteries. So, yeah, kind of a weird one. Maybe. I don't know. I went for the brachial and the ulnar. When you say you went for it, was that even with a knife? Mm-hmm. So where are you? Were you home? Yeah. No one's around? No. I think my parents were home. Well, my mom and her, I think she was remarried at that point. Yeah. My mom, my stepfather, my sister.

[00:13:40] I had my own room at this point. So I was like, good night. Didn't make a sound when that's happening? You don't scream? You don't yell? No. It's nothing. Nope. I mean, it was bleeding pretty good. And I set up some towels on the floor. It was carpet. So somebody wouldn't have to replace the carpet and we would lose our security deposit. So I was like, I'm going to make this easy for whoever has to deal with this. Yeah. But I mean, I made a little bit of a mess, but I did a good job cleaning it up afterwards.

[00:14:10] But did it just stop bleeding on its own? No. So I woke up after some hours. I have no idea how much time passed. Wait, wait, wait. If you bludgeon your arm, I would imagine it's hard to fall asleep. Did I miss something here? No. What is happening? That's a great question. Because you can't be bleeding out and then fall asleep. Well, I guess you can. Yeah. I mean, you start to lose. I don't know. Didn't you die at that point? See, that was the thought. That was the goal.

[00:14:40] But I didn't end up getting deep enough. So I didn't damage the arteries like I was trying to. But I thought I did because I was bleeding so much from the blood thinners. And you fall asleep. And do you remember falling asleep thinking it's time to just drift off forever? Mm-hmm. And how did that make you feel? Do you remember? It was great. Not great, but it was a relief. But how would you answer this question? I think it's kind of a hard one. It's like a relief from what exactly?

[00:15:10] I think just the lack of serotonin my brain was producing. And I didn't know that at the time. I didn't get any help with that until the summer after that, I think. So a year later. There's a test just for that? That's a great question. I don't know. I've had a lot of testing. I'm a genetic mess. Yeah. I have a lot of testing done all the time. Lots of blood work.

[00:15:35] Later, I had a genetic test done to see which kind of medications are most likely to work with my brain chemistry, I think based off of other findings that came to the conclusion that like, oh, your brain just doesn't produce much serotonin. I wonder how much different your life is if it just produced more serotonin. I think about that frequently. I bet. I think it would be very different. Sure. Fucking serotonin. A little bitch.

[00:16:03] Before we get to the aftermath of that one, as we speak, are you suicidal? No. No, I'm not. I'm not. I'm not planning anything. I'm in a good space at the moment and I plan on staying in a good space for as long as I can. But I mean, the thoughts are never completely gone. You talk to people about that? I mean, really talk open, open, honest. If you were anyone else and this were any other scenario, I'd be like, no, I'm great. I'm great.

[00:16:33] Would you actually do the thumbs up you just did? Maybe. Great. Great. Okay. Great. No one could see that. It's a podcast, but Emma gave a thumbs up. So you fall asleep. You were careful to make sure that you weren't too messy. You wake up and does anybody wake you up? Do you wake up? You're just like, I'm just going to get back to my day and go to XYZ high school biology class? Yeah. I just wake up. Nobody wakes me up. Nobody had seen anything.

[00:17:02] So I got up. I was like, God damn it. And I cleaned up my mess and then went on with my day. I got a weird question. And that is, what stops you from trying again? Maybe even just after that or shortly after that? That's a great question. That's the third time you've told me I have great questions. I'm just going to assume all my questions are great. Your questions are great, but that's my buffering phrase. That's your buffering to think about it. That's fine.

[00:17:32] I do that shit all the time. Oh, that's a good question. Thinking, thinking, thinking. Great question. But now I think it's not really a great question. That's just the way you buy time. Okay, fine. It is a good question. That's why I'm thinking about it. People might think like, well, what kind of dumb? Why would you ask that? It's like, because if people want to die, I wonder why they don't die. That's the point. Right. I mean, literally hours ago, you wanted to be dead. You still might want to be dead. And it's interesting to me that you are like, I mean, what choice do you have? You get on with it. You brush your teeth. You go to school.

[00:18:02] You know, you just live life. It's not going to magically, radically change. Probably. You could go hardcore and go up into the mountains or you could be bedridden. That's options too. But for you, it wasn't the case. You try not. But what stopped you from trying that moment? I was ashamed. I didn't want anyone to figure out what just happened. I figured my life would get a lot worse if someone figured it out. So I was, okay, I'll just, I'll white knuckle it a little longer.

[00:18:31] Figure something out so it works next time. Okay. So the thinking was not figure out something. So I'm going to be okay. It's figure out it'll work. Yeah. Biting time until later. It's what I'm thinking. So I'm not going to bullshit myself. Let me digress for a moment. What kind of coffee are you drinking? I made myself a latte. Oh, it's a latte. Yeah. So espresso with steamed milk. For the audience and listeners who don't know what a latte is. Thanks.

[00:19:01] You're welcome. Anytime. So you go back, you live life. You're kind of planning. You said, right? Like you're thinking biding time until the next time. So it was major attempt number three also in high school not long after? It was a few years after, nearing the end of my senior year of high school. How was high school for you? It was fine. High school was COVID or after high school was COVID? Sophomore year, middle of sophomore year was COVID.

[00:19:30] Yeah, I was still kind of tapering off by the end of my senior year. Things had gone mostly back to normal, but not completely. I'm kind of surprised I survived COVID. Why? Because it was just nonstop staring at a computer screen. No human interaction. Just completing assignments, getting things done. That was it. I also moved during that. So that was really fun too. You said with a facetiously. Okay. Yes. I hate moving.

[00:20:00] It's my favorite. People don't understand, especially through Zoom or audio. I don't see the face though. No. Not fun. Not fun. It's my least favorite activity in the world. Were we? Okay. I've moved over 20 times at this point. Wow, shit. Yeah. I never got to stay in one place growing up. I mean, obviously, because I moved 20 times. It was very difficult to make friends. And by the time I got to high school, I think I had been to like eight different schools.

[00:20:30] And I was like, why even bother? So I was the weird new kid everywhere I went. And then moving house too. Not fun. So it was just like, I give up. I'm just going with the flow. But I have to do a lot of labor going from one flow to the next. So it was not good, but you didn't try. That's correct. I was no longer in the symphony because COVID.

[00:20:55] Although they had resumed and I was not about to go back with all the COVID mandates and such. It was really depressing to see. My former symphony peers, they were six feet apart, one stand per person. Normally you have a stand partner and share. Masks over the blowholes of the wind instruments too. This is so weird. And it's really depressing.

[00:21:20] It was so different from what I wanted to see and why I came to the symphony was to get connected to people. And I mean, connecting more than just talking to someone. I don't remember talking with people very much at all. We had very short breaks. Two hours on, 10 minute break, two more hours, 10 minute break, two more hours of rehearsal. There wasn't time to talk to people. I just liked being around people, but communicating through music.

[00:21:49] So that was really nice. And I didn't want to do that from six feet away. Having my own stand and just being so physically isolated from people. Not just my silly little brain telling me, oh, you don't fit in. Don't talk to people. Didn't want to go back. And you tried to end your life when you were 18? Yes. What happened there? I went for the arteries again. Different arm. Which means you have to use your probably your non-dominant hand. I'm ambidextrous.

[00:22:18] So it doesn't really matter. Wait, you can play the violin both sides? No. Because it doesn't work that way? Nope. So this time, are you home? Yes. Gosh, I think this one was more, this is kind of fucked up. It's more out of boredom. Hmm. I was like, don't really want to be here anymore. Nothing new. So I was just like, fuck it. I'll give it another go. First, it was a knife. I couldn't get in there like I did last time.

[00:22:46] So I ripped apart a razor blade, dug in that way. But it's Colorado. It is so dry here. There is no humidity in the air. Kind of gross. But the skin on my wrist was really crusty and dead and dry. And I could not get through it. Mm-hmm. So to any means that would be damaging.

[00:23:10] At that point, I was sitting there just like pressing as hard as I possibly could for like a good half hour. And I was like, I'll finish this later. Yeah. Sorry. I got bored from that too. And three or so years later, you haven't tried again? Uh, nope. Have you been medicated so that you have more serotonin? Yes. I have been medicated since the year after my second attempt. So here's the thing.

[00:23:38] I said earlier how your life might have been different with serotonin. And I'm sure it would have been very different. Mm-hmm. You stumbled across a podcast called Suicide Noted. It didn't take you long, I'm sure, to figure out exactly what we're doing here. Yep. And you were actively looking for that. Or at least it came up and you clicked. I was ideating, as you do. Um, this was probably about a year ago. So a while after my third attempt, I was just, you know, looking at methods down the rabbit hole of Reddit, as you do. Um, I saw like a comment.

[00:24:08] I think it was from you on one of these threads. And it said like, hi, I have a podcast. I searched your name in Spotify and I found the podcast. And I was like, oh, is this just like suicide notes? Yeah, that's the problem with the name. I know. Yeah. It's clever though. I like it. Yeah. It's a gift. Wait until it gets your memoir title. Then we'll talk clever. Okay. Sounds good. I haven't had it yet. I don't know yet, but we're working on it. You should be doing some work internally as well. And before we get to that, it's a collaborative effort. Mm-hmm.

[00:24:37] I've been thinking about that a little bit. I have- Good. I want my guests to be prepared. How long have you been listening to the podcast? Over a year? Um, yeah, about a year since I found it. But something I noticed kind of recently is I have only listened to the episodes with male guests. I've listened to maybe like one or two females, but I find myself relating so much more to your male guests.

[00:25:03] I think because it's such a social stigma for men to express emotion. And I grew up that way too. When I grew up, it was like, shut up. Just get through the day. I remember my mother would get- Oh, I forgot about that. My mother would get kind of mad when I would emote. And so I grew up very stone-faced and analytical. Now that I look back on it, my mother, she did the best she could for what she had.

[00:25:30] But I look back and I see a lot of abusive characteristics as I get older. I'm like, wait, that wasn't normal? Now you're listening to this more men than anyone else. Men, the male episodes. So you reached out, we were trying to find a time, and then eventually you ghosted me and now you're back. Yes, I did. That's my special talent. I was moving house again. My entire childhood, I spent bouncing back and forth from Colorado to California to Quebec and back.

[00:25:57] I had been living in Michigan for a year, give or take. And then some family stuff, shit hit the fan, moved back to Quebec to help take care of family, and then came back to Colorado. So that was the month period where I was trying to get my shit together and then drive back from Montreal back to Colorado. So that was, it was an event for me. Wait, so do you have family that's French? Mm-hmm. Okay. French-Canadian, I know. Do you speak French?

[00:26:28] Mm-hmm. Bilingual? Bye! People don't include it as a language a lot, American Sign Language. I'm hard of hearing. So I just kind of picked it up. I watched some YouTube videos. So you learned it through YouTube and you are, you can hear me, right? But you also have an app that transcribes what I'm saying? What's the app? I forget. It's some sort of like Chrome extension on my browser. Are you on your phone or a laptop? I'm on a laptop. Oh.

[00:26:57] Mm-hmm. But yeah, I have little subtitles at the bottom. It takes a second, but I have hearing aids too. So that I can get most with. If I don't catch something, I can read it going by. So is that a birth thing, both the hearing and the sight? It's something autoimmune. Oh, shit. What that is, I have no idea. I have not been able to find a diagnosis. And I've been, I mean, getting tons of tests and blood work

[00:27:25] and all that fun stuff for years and years and years and just nothing. I had one doctor accuse me of faking it. Yeah, don't you love that shit? Yeah. And then I went to my now audiologist, and she also has a ton of autoimmune issues. And she says, yeah, as a woman with autoimmune issues, like you're going to run into at least one doctor that says you're faking it. What exactly is to gain by faking such things? Tell me. Hearing aids, I guess.

[00:27:54] Because what 15-year-old doesn't want hearing aids? Right. That's the coolest shit. Yeah. It's new fashion. So do you ID regularly? Yeah. What do you think stopped you from trying again? I don't want someone else to have to deal with what I leave behind. I don't want a lot of time and money and resources that my mom has put into creating a life for me. I don't want that to go to waste.

[00:28:22] I just feel like I'm in too deep now to peace out. But I feel like I could definitely see myself dying that way. So when you're 21 and you can see yourself, you're in this, let's call it sort of space between, do you, and you ideate, is it sort of like you're not really planning? Nope. I'm not planning. I mean, I'll see things every so often and I'm like, ooh, I could use that. Or like a method, a method. Yeah.

[00:28:50] When you're not working, what do you do? What's your life like? I like to stay busy with work as much as possible. I create little worksheets for my students and visual aids. So that takes up quite a bit of my time. I hardly practice my instruments very much anymore. I really should. But I just, I don't know, I haven't had the motivation in a handful of years. Between lessons, when I'm alone in the studio, I'll just, I'll play and it's fun.

[00:29:19] And I miss it and I want to do it more, but I just don't. Hobbies? Socializing? Not very much socializing. I'm also a student, so that's fun. Where do you go to school? Metro State University of Denver. And what do you study? Music composition. All right. So you're just all about music. Yeah. I love it. I think it's important that, I mean, this type of art form is maintained and preserved even as it evolves throughout time.

[00:29:47] But a lot of people in the field, they think, like the old stuff got to go. It needs to be noise. That was a qualm I had when starting school here. I mean, MSU is no Juilliard, but it's the most affordable. The worst tagline for a school. It's no Juilliard. But it's not Juilliard. But it's not Juilliard. MSU, Metro State University music program. It's not Juilliard.

[00:30:16] So are you a little bitter that you're not at a school like Juilliard? Because it sounds like you have the skills. I don't know. No matter what, I feel like I should be so much better than where I am. But I think that'll be true no matter what I accomplish or don't in my life. Here's another little tidbit. When I was 12 years old, I wrote symphonies starting from like 10. I started writing symphonies because I started playing the violin.

[00:30:43] And I would take notebook paper and write in like Crayola marker, like one staff line per like line on the piece of notebook paper. It was egregious. And I would write my pieces there. I eventually got a symphony written and played at a fundraiser where a former professor at, he heard it and he's like, you don't know what you're doing. Come study with me.

[00:31:10] I studied with him for, I think like eight years or so, or I forget. By the time I was 16 or 17, he said, okay, this is where I would stop with my, my undergrad students. Do you want to keep going? Or like, hell yeah, I want to keep going. So I was able to get that into credit for university. So I was able to skip my entire bachelor's degree. And I, I got my bachelor's before I graduated high school.

[00:31:39] So I was looking at grad school in London and I found this great one that has this great composition for film program. And I was set to go. I had gotten in and I was ready and the COVID hit. So it's like, God damn it. That didn't happen. You can't go back. Um, I could, but I'm, I'm a little into deep now here.

[00:32:04] I think if I wanted to start a master's degree at like 17 or 18 or 18, when I graduated high school, that would have been fine in Europe. But here you have to be, you have to be 21. And I wasn't at the time. And so I was like, what do I do? What do I do with my life? Get another degree. So that's what I've been doing. So I'm working towards another bachelor's, which is good fun. All right. So, um, I do have a memoir idea.

[00:32:32] You'm up a couple of times already out of your mouth. I'm just trying to listen. Oh, you're not going to like it. Okay. So you can say no, and we can work together towards something else. Okay. Uh, I don't know if it's the title or the subtitle, but you've said it a few times. It's a double or triple entendre here in too deep. Let it, let it resonate a little bit. Let it, let it marinate a little bit in too deep. Yep. You don't have to get too fancy with title sometimes. Keep it simple. Well, I know you found the podcast. Why do you want to talk with me? And then, and then thereby other humans hear it.

[00:33:01] Well, I think it, it's been therapeutic for me. I figured it would be actually being able to speak openly and not bullshit someone in fear of being hospitalized. And I've found it therapeutic to listen to other people with similar experiences and even very different turnouts from similar circumstances. So I've, I've found that really cathartic as well.

[00:33:27] So if my story or whatever, uh, somebody else finds that interesting, then okay, cool. Hopefully somebody will get something out of it, but if they don't, I'm getting something out of it. So. Okay. Yeah. Understood. And you'd mentioned, uh, staying out of a hospital. Have you been in a hospital? I have briefly. Oh, this is a saga. Yeah. After my third attempt, the one senior year of high school, I was on the phone with my

[00:33:53] best friend and we were just talking and I'm like, I don't know why I said it, but I was like, Oh, by the way, like pulled her on again. We had, um, one of her neighbors, his name was Ron. He, um, committed suicide and he attempted a couple of times and took him third time was the charm for him. So I was like, pulled her on again. So we would joke about it. It was fine, but she didn't find that as nonchalant as I did.

[00:34:21] So she called my mother when I was at school and she was like, by the way, uh, your daughter tried to kill herself again. And my mom's like, again, what do you mean again? Uh, she didn't know about the first two times. So now she had to learn about the others. Yeah. You have a heart to heart moment with her? No, um, we've never really had that. Well, she's, she's vented to me plenty of times when I think I was probably way too young to

[00:34:49] hear that kind of stuff, but I have never felt comfortable emoting to her. To others, um, really my, my best friend, she's the only one I feel comfortable. Like being myself around, but she, again, she was one who, she was the whistleblower. So like, if I'm feeling like really suicidal or something, I don't think I would speak up to her about it again.

[00:35:17] And based on what you said earlier in the conversation, you have exactly zero people to talk to about this. Yeah. And how did you wind up in the hospital? Okay. So my best friend called my mother. I was actually seeing a therapist every week at that point, cause I could finally afford it. And, but I mean, still, I'm not going to be completely honest with my therapist really, by the way, cause you know what happens then. But I got to therapy that day and I sat down and she's like, hello, how are you? I'm good. How are you? Thanks.

[00:35:47] And we started our session and she goes, I got a phone call from your mother and she says, tried to kill yourself the other day. And I was like, how did you know? You can't get out of it at this point, right? I mean, yeah. Um, and so she's asking me about details, like how, um, she's like, will you show me your wound? Like, no. She's like, yes, you are. Okay, fine. So she called my mother and said like, you need to meet us here now.

[00:36:16] One thing I thought was funny because my therapist thought it was funny that my mother said, Ooh, this is actually not a good time. Um, cause she had a client scheduled later that evening and it was over FaceTime. Like she reschedules that all the time, but like this time, no. And my therapist, well, she saw my incision, well, attempt at incision. It didn't really work.

[00:36:41] Um, and she, she was like, it concerns me that, that it's vertical and not horizontal. And I said, I did my homework. And I think it's very hard to find this information these days. No, it's not. It's really not. Um, which is kind of comforting, honestly. The therapist was, um, sending you to the hospital? She said, I feel like you're okay now. Normally I would send someone to the hospital, but I'm just going to have your mother come get you when she's free. I feel like you're okay now is based on what?

[00:37:11] Based on our conversation that I had with her in that, that afternoon. Okay. So she's gauging based on the conversation. Yeah. She's like, probably not going to try again right now. So. Did she ask you if you were going to try again? No. Such an easy, direct question. I know. You would think. All right. So, uh, yeah. How do you end up in the hospital? Yeah. My mother picks me up and then she's like, what the fuck? We have a conversation.

[00:37:40] I'm like, sorry, I won't do it again. Might not be the first time, but it's okay. And so we, we went home. My therapist set up a ton of like conditions for me to be able to be home. It's like, I cannot be left alone at all. Like the, the door on my room was taken off. It was like, I wasn't supposed to shower alone. It was, it was certainly interesting. And my mother kind of, she started by following the, the conditions very closely.

[00:38:07] And then she kind of tapered off after a while, which I was pleased about. Oh, before we got home, she took me to the ER to get my wrist assessed, even though it like wasn't anything. They pretty much said, you're fine, go home, but we're going to change your meds. And I had been on one medication for years and it was working fine. I mean, I was still ideating, still depressed, but I wasn't like unable to get out of bed all the time anymore. Oh my gosh.

[00:38:35] And I was struggling with like stress vomiting. So when I would eat something, I would just come right back up and I wouldn't be able to keep like anything down. And my mother, she's, she's kind of a hippie and she's like, it's the medication. Let's try a different one. And it was like, no, I feel okay on this one. I'm not switching. And she says, yeah, you are. So she switched it to another one, the four to six weeks period between it actually working absolutely horrendous.

[00:39:02] So it wasn't like a taper off and then slowly start the other one. It was cold Turkey new one, which is so not the right way to do it. And then I was still having these problems. The stress vomiting was like, Hey mom, see, it's not the meds. It's the same thing. That's not the common denominator here. And she was like, okay, well, we're going to try a different medication now. So she switches it again. And I did not consent to any of this.

[00:39:27] Her and my doctor decide to switch it to, to something that she had tried in the past that worked okay for her. But my genetic testing said, that's probably not going to vibe with your brain chemistry. I said, no, no, I want to stay on this stuff. And they said, no, we're switching. So it switched and it fucked up my brain chemistry. I was woozy. I could not stand straight. I should not have been allowed to drive, but I did.

[00:39:53] Maybe a couple of days after my third attempt, I was driving to school and I slid into a street sign because it was icy Colorado. I didn't have my proper motor skills to be able to get out of that. And my mom was like, oh my God, you tried it again. You told me you wouldn't. No, I didn't. I told you I wouldn't do it like that. Cars are expensive. So I lost my, the one place that I was able to be myself.

[00:40:21] It was, my car was like my sanctuary. Between classes, I would take naps in it. It was just my space. It was great. Then that was gone. And I was between the four to six weeks with the medication again, because I had switched it again. Okay. The timeline's kind of funky. It was the, before the third attempt that I had switched to the one that she used to be on. So that one fucked up my brain chemistry. So it was a combination of getting off that one while getting on to a different one.

[00:40:50] Well, being in that, that four to six week limbo that just fucked with my brain. So I could not get out of bed for the next week or so, even though I should have. So she was like, okay, we got to go to this place that your therapist recommended. Okay, whatever. I'm pretty indifferent at this point. So we, we go and it's, it's specifically behavioral health unit. It's not like part of a hospital. It's just the mental hospital. I was just sitting there for hours and hours.

[00:41:20] It was a weird experience. It was very much like, like a prison. It had like two doors to get through the lobby to the outside. It was like one door has to lock before the other one can unlock. I feel like, um, like a parakeet in some of those exhibits at the zoo where they have the, the double doors. So none of the birds escape. We go there. I sit for many hours and my mom's just like awkwardly beside me. Like this dumb bitch.

[00:41:49] I don't want to be here. I finally get taken into this really tiny room. I felt so claustrophobic. The door immediately clicks shut and locks. And this guy, um, mental health professional, he was an expert in his field comes in. He's like, hello, I'm so-and-so. And I've been doing this for like 15 years with this. And then with 20 more years experience with that and just throwing his credentials down my throat right away.

[00:42:17] And I'm like, okay, I guess you're credible. Good for you. He goes, just do the opposite of what your depression says to do. Like it's this big epiphany. Like I'm supposed to be like, whoa, I never thought of that. Somebody who's already working at the hospital. It's interesting that they spend time talking about their credentials. You're already at the hospital. We're giving you the benefit of the doubt. So let's, let's think about that wisdom for a second. Okay. Just do the opposite. I have not gone to school. I, you know, I, I got a master's.

[00:42:46] I'm not fucking around either here, but it isn't nothing related to this. 35 years, at least in his training, just do the opposite. Just do the opposite. Let's, let's, let's, let's, can we, can we role play here? Not the role play, but okay. So your depression says what? So like on a random day, what does it say? It says, go jump off that bridge. So what's the opposite of jumping off a bridge? Slither on it. I don't know. Cause, cause he's already talking to someone who's arguably struggling.

[00:43:14] So who knows how their brain processing what opposite means. So some people might say the opposite of jumping off a bridge is not jumping off a bridge, but others, right. Like you just did might say, I'm going to follow the doctor's advice. I'm not going to jump. I'm going to slither. You're going to slither. Or I'm not going to jump off a bridge. I'm going to jump off something else. Is it the opposite? No, but it's. He did give me an example. He gave me a great example.

[00:43:43] He says, for example, if your depression is telling you don't get out of bed, then get out of bed. Hold up. Oh, okay. Okay. I'll just get out of bed. Right. So the missing link for you all this time was that you didn't have that vital piece of information. Exactly. So when you were in bed for a week, like you had mentioned, you didn't know that getting out of bed was an option? Oh yeah. I had no idea. This is fun. Why?

[00:44:11] Satire is not always appropriate with suicide or in mental health, but I find like it should be. I agree. It's the easiest way to talk about it. I think. We know how much money that guy makes doing that. So much money. I'm sure. I don't know. Maybe in those hospitals, they don't make as much. I don't know. But he probably has a private practice. Who knows? I have no idea, but I'm like, okay, now I understand why you shoved your credentials down my throat.

[00:44:35] The second I saw you, because he's about to say something so fucking stupid that it's going to completely contract the credentials. And he did that. He did just that. Yeah. He did just that. And I was so just out of it. I was deadpan. I was like, fucking do whatever you want with me. I don't care. And it was my mother who brought me to the hospital and I'm just along for the ride.

[00:45:01] She was under the impression that a mental hospital is a walk-in psychiatrist. Oh wow. She can just hand you some pills that work right away. Yeah. Keep you for a night to see if it kicks in. And then bye. Go home. Have a good life. I don't know why that's what she thought it was, but that is not what it is, as you know. So they kept you there. They did not keep me there because I was letting my mother speak for me because I just did not give a fuck.

[00:45:31] And she's like, oh, oh, well, that's not what this place is. Okay. We we don't need it then. This is not what we need. I'm like, sure. This is not what I need. I'm not going to say anything to the contrary because I mean, I've done my research. I know what happens. I already am being locked up like an animal right through the front door. And I was getting like claustrophobic with it was like this cart with stuff to check your vitals and everything instead of pens.

[00:46:00] They had crayons on the table and this was not for kids. No, well, they don't want you to use the pen, right? Yeah. But I mean, with this this very qualified man in the room, like how how am I going to use a pen? There's ways I know, but I mean, also the opposite of a pen, I guess, is a crayon. Yeah, exactly. So just do the opposite of what your depression tells you to do. Sign release papers with a crayon. So that's that's what I did. He was like what color crayon?

[00:46:30] It was purple. You remember that? Mm hmm. So you signed mom was there signing these papers and you you walk out. Yep. I walked out. And well, when I walked in, they took my shit. They took I mean, my phone. I had a string in my hoodie. They took that. Never gave it back, by the way. Sold it on eBay or something. Yeah. Assholes. And they they took my hearing aids because they said, well, you can swallow the batteries.

[00:46:59] OK, yeah, I know. But also, how the fuck am I supposed to, like, get better if I'm like freaking out because I can't understand anything anybody's saying to me? Oh, I've never heard that. Wow. I've never heard that. Yeah. That was a few years ago. You got out. You never went back to a place like that, I imagine. Nope. Yeah. I wouldn't go there if it were like my own decision. I only went because my mother said we had to go. And I was 18 at the time. So technically, I could say no.

[00:47:29] When she did all the talking for me and she blatantly misunderstood what a mental hospital was and they they gave me the papers to sign that I don't know what it was for. So I'm in the wrong facility. So you can go just sign it and go in a crayon. Yeah. So I wouldn't go back if it were my own free will. I'm going to take a few guesses here. Ready? Mm hmm. I think that no one knows we're talking. Mm hmm. Is that correct? Yep.

[00:47:55] I think that when this comes out, when it comes out, you will tell no one about it. That is correct. I think you will listen to it, even though you're not a man and you only listen to the men. Maybe. Maybe. You might. You might not. Okay. Hard to know. I detest the sound of my voice. Yeah. So I think that would be a struggle. Does anybody know about, as I'm thinking about your attempts at eight years old, the one at 15 and the one at 18, people do know about them because you mentioned

[00:48:25] what happened when you told your friend who then told your mom. So there are outside of medical professionals. There's a handful of people that know about that. Yep. Just that that handful that got out of the bag right there. That's that's it. Do you go to a therapist or a counselor? I don't. I should. But they're expensive. Yeah. But have you in the past? I have. I. Oh, I started going to therapy maybe the year after my first attempt.

[00:48:53] Like I managed to let my my whole arm that mess heal up. I really should have gotten stitches, but I wasn't about to go to the hospital. That's expensive. And it was pretty obvious what I did. So I managed to hide it for about a year. And then when it was healed up, I was like, OK, I'm going to start delving into the world of short sleeves. It's summer. So I did. And my mother was like, what the fuck is that?

[00:49:17] I usually have like a jacket that I can just toss over and or a cardigan so I can be like, I'm a teacher. As I go fetch students and I bring them into my room, which gets really hot and stuffy. So I'll take it off and kids don't don't know. But sometimes kids are like, oh, what's that? God, what do I say? Like, I got attacked by a tiger. I'll just say like really dumb shit and they'll be like, whoa. And then we'll move on.

[00:49:46] And they'll never or I'll go like, oh, it's a birthmark. Just six of them, like very perfectly spaced out. It's a birthmark. It's fine. Now I'm lucky because they've faded pretty good. So they're no longer like reddish. They used to be like purple. Do you ever wish that those attempts had worked? Mm hmm. You know, like, do you wish that right now? Maybe not right now because I'm in I'm in an OK place.

[00:50:11] I wish I would have thought maybe a different location or even a different method would have worked if I tried it. I wish I would have thought it through more beforehand because with the the chance that I would survive, then I would have repercussions like little kids coming up to me and being like, well, what's that? That's kind of awkward. Yeah. Mm hmm. And just I don't know. I liked what you said in one of your one of your stories.

[00:50:40] It was the tattoo on the forehead. How did you hear about the tattoo on the forehead? Because I researched your name and I found like public speaking things. Oh, wow. I wanted to get to know your story a little bit, too, but I couldn't find like that much of it besides the little memoirs. Nobody knows. Nobody knows. So those doctor that doctor you saw perhaps afterwards, did you get a diagnosis you think is right?

[00:51:08] I well, depression, duh, anxiety, OCD, PTSD. In my my sophomore year of high school, I was bullied really bad by my orchestra teacher. Oh, shit. So, yeah, that was like end of freshman year. So I quit the school orchestra after that. You think they bullied you because you're the best? I don't know.

[00:51:31] So, I mean, the the other kids were like they started getting really annoyed that a freshman kept beating them out for concertmaster. I don't know if you if you know in in an orchestra, the seating order is very specific. Best to worst all the way down. Oh, really? Yeah. So it's it's pretty cutthroat. Wait, were you better than your teacher? There you go. There's your reason. Was the teacher a man or a woman? Man. How old? Early 50s. Late 40s. He was jealous.

[00:52:01] No, most definitely. I mean, it's I was just doing. Yeah, of course. He gave me. I don't know if he was. I'm just speculating. But yeah, I mean, I get it. Like, it freaks me out when I when I see like videos of like four year olds playing these concertos that I worked years on. And I'm like, God damn it. I'm also not going to go around and like spread rumors about that kid and be like. Like he did. Yeah. He was he was horrible.

[00:52:28] He was like a little like a little white girl spreading tea. Hold up. Number one shouldn't have been a teacher. But number two. Wait, why does it have to be a race thing? What about what a white girl? We have reputation. You do. Mm hmm. But I bet you dealt with that a lot. Right. Yeah, I did. But mostly because I was the weird new kid. And your sister? She has no food allergies. She didn't have braces, no glasses, no hearing aids. I am the complete opposite.

[00:52:57] Everyone in my family has life threatening food allergies except for my fucking sister. She got the good genes and I'm just a genetic mess. I started wearing contacts when I was like 11 or 12 because the glasses, I hated them so much. I look like a fucking beetle. Like the eyes are like tennis ball size. I wish I were exaggerating, but I'm not. Being the ugly kid and the new kid didn't go hand in hand too well. Yeah.

[00:53:27] All right. I only have a couple more questions. And that is other than music. Does anything help you feel OK? I like to drink. What do you drink? Just anything that goes down the hatch. I don't consider myself like having a problem with alcohol. I don't feel like I depend on it. I just I like myself better when I've had a few drinks. It makes me feel a lot better about myself. Like I don't completely hate everything I am. That's kind of my, I don't know, best version of myself coming out.

[00:53:56] How many meds do you take to get that serotonin OK? Um, I'd take three. I have serotonin now, but it I mean, it doesn't work like I wish it would. I'm still like depressed all the time. I don't think I'm like, oh, yeah, I'm OK now. Yeah, I still think about dying a lot. I'm way too much in my head all the time. Like I wish I could view myself from somebody else's perspective and maybe not be like, wow, that's a piece of shit.

[00:54:24] So I wish I could be tipsy all the time, but I mean, I work with kids. That's not going to happen. In too deep, tipsy all the time, not going to work. But I kind of like the way that sounds. Yeah. There's something about just do the opposite. I wish we could work it in somewhere in that memoir title. I really fucking do. Yeah. Yeah. Just don't kill yourself. It's not that hard. Just don't kill yourself. Yeah. Just don't kill yourself. Do you, when's your birthday? October. So 22. What do you think? Sounds like you're going to make it, but. Yeah, I think I'll be there.

[00:54:54] But it won't be a smooth ride. But I feel pretty okay for where I am now. And I think down the road, I think I will try again and hopefully succeed. Just because I cannot picture myself being happy. No matter if I accomplish everything I want to do. If I find the right person. I don't know. If I've just won at life, I can still see myself sad and still alone. And then just be like, oh, fuck it. Bye.

[00:55:24] If you can't picture the possibility, that's where I think it gets dangerous. Yeah. I can't picture the possibility and I don't know. I never have been able to picture the possibility. Right. Right. Like there's no reference point for you. It's not even like you could say, oh, if I could just how it was five, seven, ten years ago. You don't have it. Mm-mm. Wow. Pink and purple pill. You take it. You go to sleep. You die. No one knows the suicide. Painless. That sounds so nice. But I think I would save it. You would save it somewhere? Yeah. I would save it. Save it for a rainy day.

[00:55:54] Snowy day? Maybe. Snowy day. Somewhere. Put that pill somewhere in like your violin case. It's metaphor. It's a symbol. Maybe not in my violin case. I feel like, I don't know. I wouldn't want that connotation with my, it's my baby. What's your favorite? So if you were to ingest it, what flavor would it be? It's a new question I ask. Ooh. I like raspberry. Or cherry. Raspberry or cherry? Maybe the pink side can be raspberry and the blue. I think blueberry, I don't know. There's no blue. Okay. Same thing. Pink and purple. Whatever. Blueberry. Purple.

[00:56:24] You could change the color. The color doesn't have to match the flavor, right? Purple isn't blueberry, but it doesn't matter. This is all fictional. Do you have any myths you'd like to dispel here? Well, the usual. I don't think suicide is like the most selfish thing in the world. I don't think it's, it's not, but I don't think it's, it's as selfish as people portray it to be. One thing I think of a lot. Are you familiar with, I forget who's, who's law of conservation, but it's conservation of matter.

[00:56:53] I'm a huge nerd. It's the, the law that all matter can neither be created nor destroyed. One philosophy I've kind of toyed around with, I don't necessarily believe it, but if like all of my pain, when I kill myself, if that like releases, I think other people who are close to me would catch some of it, but they wouldn't catch it in the volume that I had it to myself.

[00:57:18] So it's like, yes, it's selfish because I'm, I'm putting pain onto someone else, but also it's like, it was too much, so much pain that something had to be done. And so they can, they can take a little bit. It's fine. Not in like a, ah, fuck you revenge kind of way, but more of, um, take one for the team. You can take this little piece for me. Something you remember me by. Also though, they can remember you by this conversation. Maybe. Although not a soul.

[00:57:46] You never know who's out there that you know that we'll be looking for a podcast with the word suicide because no one talks about it. So you don't know. And I figured if somebody that I, that I do know, like stumbles across this episode, then it's meant to be. Yeah. Yeah. Otherwise not a soul. All right. So there'll be a lot of people who hear this. So any words to them? This is always a hard question. Good luck out there. That's fair. Like let's not overdo it and tell them what to do or how to feel.

[00:58:15] I would tell them to do the opposite of what you're doing. Just do the opposite. That's that simple. Just do the opposite. Do the opposite. Good luck. Play music. Sure. Anything else you want to share? Nothing that comes to mind. All right. Thanks for talking. All right. Thanks for having me. I hope your day is decent. Thanks. You too. Bye. As always, thanks so much for listening and all of your support. Special thanks to Emma in Colorado in her 2008 Saturn Ion. Thanks, Emma.

[00:58:45] If you are a suicide attempt survivor and you'd like to talk, please reach out. Our email is hello at suicidenoted.com. I would love to hear from you. You can check the show notes to learn more about this podcast, including our membership and the Noted Network. And of course, please send me your ideas for Emma's memoir title. You can do that by email, social media, or even a comment in Spotify. You can also find a poll there, which will ask you if you like this week's logo.

[00:59:14] We're getting close. We're getting very close. I appreciate all of that. And that is all for episode number 255. Stay strong. Do the best you can. I will talk to you soon.