DeAnna in the Rockies (Colorado Tours)

[00:00:00] I want autonomy and agency. I want to be able to do it on my own, pick the date, make sure that everything is the way that I want it to be, have the meals that I want to have, and then the sex I want to have, and the drinks I want to like, just do it, and then just be like, stay in love.

[00:00:38] Hey there, my name is Sean, and this is Suicide Noted. On this podcast, I talk with suicide attempt survivors and ideators so that we can hear their stories. Every year around the world, millions of people try to take their own lives, end their own lives, and we almost never talk about it. And when we do talk about it, when we engage with people in pain, any kind of pain, most of us are really fucking bad at it, like astoundingly bad at it.

[00:01:06] So one of my goals with this podcast and tour, which happened in October, and other projects, which you'll hear about at some point soon, is to have more conversations and hopefully better conversations with survivors, in large part to help more people in more places, hopefully feel a little less shitty and a little less alone. Because I got to be honest, that's how I feel a lot. So it sucks, and I know that. So I'm doing the best I can. I hope it helps a little bit.

[00:01:31] You may have noticed that some of our more recent episodes are centering on that tour, and today's episode is no different. But it's kind of unique, because I had, with the help of my guests, two tour stops in the state of Colorado. And today's conversation, the one you're going to hear this episode, is mostly the conversation I had in Colorado Springs.

[00:01:55] And in Colorado Springs, we also had a pretty cool audience, and you're going to hear from them, particularly one person, a lot. And I'm really glad she contributed. And then towards the end of this episode, there's some other stuff that came up in Boulder that we didn't talk much about in Colorado Springs. I hope all of that makes sense. Keep in mind, we are talking about suicide, as we always do on this podcast. Take that into account before you listen, or as you listen.

[00:02:22] But I do hope you listen with a capital L, because there's so much to learn. And today, I am talking to the aforementioned Deanna. Deanna lives in Colorado, and she is... I don't even know how to explain it. Just have a listen. We've never talked to the podcast. Other than I've had a few episodes where just it's like small groups, and we talk, and we have a question we focus on. But one-on-one about suicide, you just never wanted to be that. No.

[00:02:52] I've asked. You have. There you are. I am. And I'm going back and forth. No, I mean, I was like, oh, wait, you're going to do this? When I come from Colorado Springs? Wait, you're going to... You're not just helping me find the place you're going to sit in tough? How did our paths cross, and how did you find the podcast? Yeah, better question. Oh, it was in September, and I had finished a grief support group. I had lost my partner in January of 21. I was going through a lot of grief and loss stuff.

[00:03:22] My sister passed away through suicide. I used to joke for years that because she did it, I couldn't do it because it had already been done in the family. But here I was, and I was like, I just... I need to know that I'm not alone. And that's what I was looking for, a sense of community, that I wasn't the only one who had these thoughts. And I was like, all right. And I didn't want to be talked out of it. That was the other thing. I was like, I do not want one of those feel-good, like, it's all going to get better.

[00:03:52] And I'm like, I don't buy that. And that wasn't the headspace I was in. And so I found yours, and I listened to a couple of episodes. And I was like, yeah, okay. Yeah, nobody's trying to talk anybody out of anything. And these are honest conversations. And I don't feel alone. I feel like there are other people who are having similar thoughts and have had similar experiences. And they're willing to be honest about it. And I really appreciated that. I appreciated listening to their stories.

[00:04:20] Because, yeah, they just didn't feel alone anymore. And here we are. Yeah. You are an ideator. Is that accurate? I'm a chronic ideator. I have a very lovely plan. So we are going to get to the lab. I don't know if you guys, like, you've never heard anything like this. I've been doing this for five years. You are in a very unique situation. Not entirely unique, but it's not common. You know what I'm saying? You've never tried to take your life. No. You are going to take your life. Yes, I am. You are going to take your life. Yes.

[00:04:50] That's my exit strategy. Yes. Right. And it feels very rational. Well, rational suicide's a whole other thread that I find fascinating and I want to talk about it. Because you're the right person to talk about it with. Yeah. When did you first think about it? With an exit strategy or just, I'm not sure I want to be on the planet anymore? Oh, that goes back to childhood. Okay. There was a lot of trauma and I wanted to disappear. When I was really little, I wanted to be a mermaid. Not because I thought mermaids were cool, but because I wanted to be at the bottom of the ocean because people were far away.

[00:05:20] And then when I figured that was not a realistic life goal. And then I was like, all right, well, then I'm going to be a mortician. Oh, wow. Because living people scare me and I don't like them and they hurt me and I'm just going to work with the dead. And then my mother put the kibosh on that. And then I was like, well, how about if I just be invisible? And then I spent a lot of my time just kind of leaning into the background. This is like teenage years into early adulthood? Yeah. Yeah. Fascinated with death.

[00:05:48] I went to boarding school. My first roommate got freaked out because I put dead baby obituaries on my little cork board when everybody else was putting pictures of like Corey Haim and Corey Feldman and River Phoenix. I had dead baby obituaries. I like obituaries. For me, it made sense because it was a reflection of the fact that everybody dies. Well, yeah, that's true. Everybody dies. Even babies die. Corey Haim. Yeah.

[00:06:10] And I was very comfortable thinking about my own mortality even at that age, even as an adolescent. I was like, yeah, I'm going to die and I need to embrace it. You know, life happens. You fall in love. You meet a guy, yada, yada, yada. Not in Mexico. Not. No, not in Mexico. But then the guy dies. Which guy? My partner, John, in January. January of 21. And then that was it. So we fast forwarded a few years. Yeah. Okay. I had a life and yeah.

[00:06:39] During that life, you never moved closer to executing any plan? It was just that ideating? Because my sister had committed suicide when she was 15. I was right before my 21st birthday. Okay. And that just blew everything up. And I was like, oh, I can't. My thought was I can't do that to my, because there was still a little brother involved. So he was three at that point. He was three. She was 15. I was just getting ready to turn 21. The same parents? Different parents. It's a whole not. No, that's a different podcast.

[00:07:08] But I didn't want to leave him. I felt like the trauma that was being experienced in that household, if I left him alone to face that alone, I didn't want to do that. For me, it was a you don't leave a comrade in arms behind. And it was literally, it felt like a war zone. And so I stuck around for him. And it was hard because there were moments where I really just wanted to go. And this is way before the current exit shot. So you were thinking about it. Yeah. How can I just disappear? I just want to go away.

[00:07:38] How did you cope? Like for me, it's really hard to just live in quote normal life. Yeah. Feel that way sometimes. I had a lot of therapy. A lot of therapy. Now, what about the drinking and a drug? No, because I'm a control freak. That amazes me. I knew this about you. I don't get it. Because of all the abuse, control was the problem. Control and safety were the primary things. And I was not going to go down that road and lose my sense of control. Right. I wasn't going to be vulnerable. A little boring, but smart.

[00:08:07] Hey, do what you got to do. I like voice. That's my advice. How about that? You like voice? Everyone's got advice. Where to? How are we going to get to this plan? No, no. I'm serious. Just ask about it. I know. But I want to set it up because you have a specific day. I do have a specific date. Not a date range? No, not a date range. A specific date.

[00:08:33] Now, I think most people would expect your specific date to be in the near future. Because it's so specific. But it's not. No. How far out is it? It's 19 years tomorrow. Why tomorrow? Because tomorrow is 1024. And the date is 1024.44. And it's that date because my sister, so my sister hung herself July 31st of 1995. And then her body finally expired on October 19th, 1995.

[00:09:03] And then my grandmother died on October 22nd of 2003. So I figured that's a nice little space for us to kind of all, you know, cosmically meet in that week of when our bodies go. Oh. Yeah. Okay. What does the why do you want to die? That's big. I know. Why? Why? It's big. It's big. No, not really. I mean, it's very practical and it's very rational.

[00:09:33] So part of it. So we've talked about safety and security and control. So I don't have a partner. I'm not anticipating having a partner. Even if I did, I don't know if I, after my partner's death, I don't know if I could trust that that person would stay with me to the very end. Like what's precluding them from dying before I do. And then I'm in the same crappy mess. I don't trust strangers to take care of me when I'm old and gray. We've had this conversation before. I struggle getting people to come around me now when I'm able-bodied.

[00:10:01] I'm relatively young and I got money in my pocket. Like I can't even imagine trying to get people to come around when I'm old and gray and decrepit. And I don't want to go like that. That feels really vulnerable and really scary. And I want autonomy and agency. I want to be able to do it on my own, pick the date, make sure that everything is the way that I want it to be, have the meals that I want to have and then the sex I want to have and the drinks I want to like, just do it and then just be like, say yeah.

[00:10:30] I don't think, you think you're going to be making that example? So yeah. So yeah. I don't like, sorry to joke here y'all. But like. God know me and there's a very, there's a very real possibility that I would do that. Do you want to show other details about that? You could pass. In terms of setting? Well, so it's, so I want the overlook of Kilk Rock, which is on the Isle of Skye in Scotland and it is, I calculated it. I put it into the computer because I don't know that much about physics and I was like, well, how long does it take? 150 pound body.

[00:10:59] And the computer's like, it doesn't matter how much you weigh. Right. It's physics. That's basic physics. I mean, it's weird, but like that's so basic. It's about three seconds. It's a three second drop from top to top. That's a long three seconds. It's okay. It's fine. So then you're dropping into the North Sea. And so between the rocks, the fact that I'm going to be a 70 year old human doing this, and then the cold North Sea, even if I survive the fall, it's two minutes till you drown. So it says chat GPT?

[00:11:30] How do you know? Again, yeah, calculations. Oh yeah, you just Google like how long does it take a body to drown? It's like two minutes. It's going to flow. What's going to flow? My body when I die? No, we don't have to get into it. No. Just want you to die if you want to die is my boy. Yeah. It won't matter. If you do somehow survive the fall, you will not be in any position to do anything like that. No. Whatever. If who's going to come and get me, I'm going to be at the bottom of a cliff in the North Sea in October. Right.

[00:11:58] No, there's not going to be anything to return. It's not going to end with some gorgeous Scottish guy coming in and just saving the day and then they make it some fucking Disney movie? No, no. This is not Highland. No. This is not Highlander. Sam Heughan's not coming to my rescue. So. It's okay. No, because you don't want that. No. You want to be gone by the way. You want to be gone. While I can still do it on my own. People are like, what about 80? I love Harold and Maude. And they're like, you could be like Maude. She did it when she was 80. Yeah. Really? My ex-husband does.

[00:12:27] He's like, come on, be Maude. I'm like, no. 80's too old. It's, well, don't people say things like 80's, didn't you say to me? I don't know if I can get my body off a cliff at 80. I know I can get it at 70. Now we're getting to it. Now we're getting to it. Okay. Okay. All right. So there are some people that know this. Mm-hmm. Like an inner circle, I imagine. Yeah, I don't know. You're not blasting it on TikTok? No, I'm not blasting it on TikTok. Does anybody like, what the fuck? No. Everyone's psycho cool?

[00:12:57] No, that's not true. Some people are like, I don't want to talk about that. Or they say, that's not okay. I've had people tell me that. That's not okay. And I'm like, well, okay. I'm sorry it's not okay for you. Right. It's not your life. I wonder what they mean. It means when you talk about suicide, people have a very visceral response of like, I don't want to talk about that. Don't say that. It makes me uncomfortable. Sitting with somebody's pain makes other people very uncomfortable. And I completely get that.

[00:13:27] And if it's uncomfortable for them to listen to, how do they think it feels for me to carry? Right. Right? Like part of it is I'm trying to share this incredibly heavy weight so that I don't have to carry it by myself forever. Like, can you just carry it for a couple of minutes? Can we just have this conversation? Right. Or can we talk about it a little bit more? Right? Like I was telling you about my friend in New Jersey and she's just like, yeah, I'll go with you and we'll have a couple of drinks and we'll make it good and it'll

[00:13:56] be, you know, I'm like, great. Just don't talk me out of it. Just don't try to talk me out of it. What did you say? Because that'll piss me off. Right. You think she's setting you up? No. She's going to, is she the same age? Yeah. She's going to be like, she's 70. Yeah. She's going to be like, no. And she's going to grab your cane? No. No. She's going to be there for you? Yeah. Not everybody from New Jersey is like this. I'm from you. I don't know where you're from. Some people from New York and New Jersey are not like that. You know? Okay.

[00:14:26] All right. We'll talk. We'll talk. Cool. So everything's paid for. The funeral's paid for. It got travel insurance. So if they find a body, if there's a body you bring back, they could bring it back. That's all bought and paid for. This is truly like rational suicide. Yes. But with the backdrop, if that's the right word, of like a lifetime of pain. Because you were, in parts, in some parts. I'm not talking about dramatic here. Yeah. But we're talking about these times where you did want to die. Absolutely. And you stopped yourself for those other reasons.

[00:14:53] Well, and part of it is, it makes me sad because it, I wish there was a way that I could guarantee that I could have somebody there and like hold my hand and like, just give me like a magic drug, like, or, you know, or just hold my hand and be with me as I take my last breath. Like if I could have somebody that I could trust, not some random fricking strangers, you know, because like that doesn't feel good to me because they're not going to be there

[00:15:22] and they're not going to really help me because they don't get, I don't know. They don't, they don't give two toots. They're just getting paid minimum wage and like, yeah, not doing that. There is a fictional pill. There's a fictional pill. And you've shared with me, you have some people in your life that you can be honest with, right? Like legit. Yeah. I can be honest. That's cool. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. But they're living their own lives.

[00:15:52] Like part of it is like, I don't want to bother people. And like, if you were to ask me like, who would you call at three o'clock in the morning? That's a whole nother talk show. I don't want to bother people. People are living their lives. Like, and, and that's totally, and I am super excited about that. And I wouldn't ask you about three o'clock in the morning because that's more of the like, but that's when things get dark. Crisis thing. I'm not even talking about crisis. I'm just talking about shitty, shitty. That's when things get dark. Okay. For you, that's when they get dark. Yeah. Okay. Late at night. Right. When everybody else is in bed.

[00:16:19] And I'm just like, because then it occurs to me that I don't have a partner, that I can't turn to somebody that I, because like when John was alive, I could talk to him all the time. Right. Three o'clock in the morning, like I'm having a really bad dream or I'm having this really bad thought or, you know, let's have this conversation. Yeah. Single people. Yeah. It's hard. Mm-hmm. It's a profound sense of loneliness. Yeah. I don't know. I've never had a real long-term partner. Yeah.

[00:16:46] So I wonder if, does it, I just, this thought came to me of like, would I rather have had and lost? Mm-hmm. Or I actually think I'd rather not have had. Mm-hmm. And I don't think I could handle having a long-term partner for a while. However they're gone. I don't, I think my constitution just would flip the fuck out. So it must be hard. I definitely did that. You flipped the fuck out. I did. Think about it then? No, because I had the dog to take care of and I promised him that I would take care of the dog. Right.

[00:17:17] He said, if anything happens to me, promise me you'll take care of the dog. And the dog's still there? Mm-hmm. Wow. She's still there. Hmm. Which sucks. And I was so angry and I was like, oh, if this dog wasn't here, I could go. But you wouldn't go, right? Because you had, it's the long-term thing. You're going to wait. No, she was gone. If there was no dog, if there was no dog and if I had access to a firearm, I would have been gone a long time ago. Really? Oh, yeah.

[00:17:47] Will you, what, so if there's no dog and if you had access to a firearm? But you're in Colorado, doesn't everyone have a gun here? I don't. I mean, I don't want you to do it, by the way. I'm not encouraging. For that reason. I don't have a gun for that reason. Right, right. Because it would be way too tempting. Right. Way too tempting. It's a guarantee. Yeah, I've had a couple, I've had three or four conversations. Not a lot where people did try with a gun and they're alive. Yep. Function. Yep. Not ideal. I'm like, no, I'm not doing that. Yeah, it's not. Mm-hmm.

[00:18:17] Mm-hmm. Yeah. So, yeah, no dogs, no me. That's definitely. And then people are like, well, we'll just keep using you puppies. Right, but it's, no, it's that dog. It's that dog. What happens when that dog dies? It ain't gonna make it 90 more years. No, I told her no pressure, but she's gotta live as long as she can. Well, so I have three dogs and I've timed it so that the last one, I should be like 65 when she goes and then I'll be like, all right, I'm on my own and now I can like just wrap it up. I think that's pretty common.

[00:18:47] That's one way people get through. Mm-hmm. I don't know. Yeah, it's a responsibility. And we can all agree dogs are better than people, right? Some people. In most ways. Some people. Some people. Yeah. Some people are pretty awesome. Some of them right here. Yeah. But almost everyone out here, dogs are better. Dogs are better. Yeah. Yeah. That's true. Yeah. I don't know about every breed, but like most of them are better. Yeah. Yeah. If you know. Yeah. You're not supposed to laugh when you're talking about suicide. Sorry. You didn't get that.

[00:19:17] I'm fired. That's the rule. That's the rule. You gotta be very serious. It's very dark. It is very dark. No. No. Even if you want to laugh, I can't allow it. It's going to be a good time until the end. Right. And even then, it's not going to be a bad time. It's just going to be a couple of seconds and that's it. It's going to be an interesting few seconds, though. But it's a lot shorter than sitting in some crappy nursing home bed surrounded by strangers who don't feed you, don't wipe you, abuse you.

[00:19:44] Like, there are sexual assaults right, left, and center in nursing homes. I'm not doing that. Been there, done that, bought that t-shirt. I'm not. And I'm determined. I'm really stubborn. You haven't bought the wallet on this. I'm really stubborn. Because I don't trust people. That's the bottom line. I don't trust that they'll be good to me at the end. Well, I don't know if I've ever asked you this question. Because we've talked about it just as two humans talking about it.

[00:20:12] And it may have come up on one of these other conversations for the podcast. But that was a group thing, which is not common for me to do. What do you think is the biggest myth or misconception around? It doesn't have to be suicide, right? It could be about pain or loss or grief. It could be about, like, what's the stuff you're like, you don't get it. They all might kind of get it, but by and large. That if you're an ideator, you're not mentally ill. I don't feel mentally ill at all.

[00:20:40] I feel well within my faculties and capacities. I have a therapist. I see my therapist. You got a job. Got a job. Making it happen. Mm-hmm. Like, I'm not mentally ill. This feels like a very rational, logical decision. Who would sign up to, like, sit in some crappy nursing home in their own feces, being sexually assaulted by other patients and staff, and, like, left to die alone? I wonder when it became a thing. Who signs up for that? No. There are probably, there are people. That sounds mentally ill. Right.

[00:21:10] I wonder when it became a thing, like a common thing in culture or wherever, like, that if you're thinking about ending your life equals mental illness, that's an interesting jump. I don't know when that happened or if that's, I don't, like, I think, I think that is generally what people think. Mm-hmm. That seems very strange to me. Of course there's some overlap, right? Mm-hmm. Of course we know mental illness. Mm-hmm. Suicide, there's a big connection. Yeah. Yeah. That's what gets a lot of the, what would you say?

[00:21:41] Focus. Focus. Yeah. And people like you are not. No. And so we don't learn a lot. Mm-mm. I don't think. No. And then when you, when I have conversations with folks and I lay it out and I'm like, yeah, that actually makes a lot of sense. I'm like, I know. Right. That's why I'm doing it. But you need a little space to. Like I have 19 more Christmases and I don't want them to be crappy. Right. Because that's the other thing.

[00:22:05] When you have a finite date, it's, it makes everything so much sweeter. Hmm. Right. Mm-hmm. Because you're just like, yeah, I want to make this amazing because it's not going to be like this forever. And the reality is, is that it's not going to be like this forever for anybody. At some point, we all have expiration dates. Right. Our bodies give out. At some point, our kids move away. At some point, whatever. Right. But people don't think about that.

[00:22:32] I live with my own mortality in front of me a lot. And I'm like, I want to choose this. But not that. Because, because I want this. This is beautiful. This is good. This is kind. That's a waste of my time. And I'm on a very short time. So. Makes sense. I want, I'm, no, it makes so much sense, but I'm too something to do it. I don't know what the word is. I was going to use a bad word. A French word. Seth. Go on. He's a pooping. You know what I'm saying? But I can't do it. I don't imagine me being able to take my life.

[00:23:03] But I think about it all the time. That's a weird space to be in. Hmm. But I don't tell many people that. You know why? Yeah. What do you think? It's because people fucking suck at listening. And I'm done trying to explain shit when they don't. Create space to listen. But I'm preaching to the choir. This is why I started the damn podcast. That's why. It's just so ridiculous how bad people are at it. I wonder if that's just like what I'm attracting there.

[00:23:33] There are good people that are good at it. But like not a ton. Like maybe seven. And four of them are in the room. So the three others are somewhere spread out around the globe. So good luck. It's hard. I mean, I'm being joking, but still it's hard. It is hard. Hmm. I really wonder if we were able to like ask people on the head that they took place as truth serum. Like what percentage of people would be like, you know, sometimes I think about it.

[00:24:00] Well, I think I don't want there to be a lot, but I think kind of not a small amount. Yeah. Because I was in the hotel yesterday in the lobby and I was having a conversation with somebody at the bar. Overpriced drinks. Just too much. And I just thought like there's like 10 people in the lobby and I'm sure at least one of them, maybe two of them think about this stuff. Yeah. Maybe more. And I'm not saying we should be always talking about it with everyone. Always that may also be weird.

[00:24:28] Like we're talking about a lot of stuff. We just don't talk about this. And it would help. I think some people, if they could be more open about it. But that's the thing. Yeah. Yeah. We're open about a lot of stuff. That's the thing. We're open about a lot of stuff. I know a lot of stuff about my sex lives. And I'm just like, I know very little about their suicidal ideation. I'm like, how come we can talk about that? But we can't talk about this. Because when you try to talk about this, people are like. It's on a short list of things that people are so uncomfortable about that are not felonious. Yeah. I think you pointed that out. Mm-hmm.

[00:24:58] There's certain felonious behavior. Like hurting animals, hurting little kids. You're like, no, fuck you. And I'm not going to listen to that shit. Right? But things that aren't felonies, it's a short list. And suicide's on the top of it of like, no, super uncomfortable, not okay with it. Let's move on. Yeah. What else is there? I know we don't have to like brainstorm, but it's a short list. All right. Got a question. It's the pink and purple pill question. Mm-hmm. It's one of my favorites. And I want to tell you why I asked this, but I'll do it after.

[00:25:28] The pill allows you to, if you take it, you go to sleep and there's no pain and you don't wake up. Nobody knows it is a suicide. What would you do with it? I hold it until October 24th of 24-4. Do you change your plans? You don't have to take a flight to Scotland now. I know. I'm still going to Scotland. It's a beautiful view. If that's the last thing I'm going to see, yeah. Wait, why are you saving it? Because I've got dogs to get across and I've got some people to help and I got some stuff to do. But you already have a plan to leave. Why do you need that pill?

[00:25:59] Then I don't have to jump. Oh, that's what I'm asking. Yeah. Okay. Okay. And I can just take it. I thought you liked the romance or something around the jumping. No, it's just guaranteed. Right. This is more guaranteed. This is more guaranteed. Yeah. The pill would be great because then, you know, I don't have to jump. I could just lay there. Yeah. And look. And I think it's a weird question for someone that's like, why would you ask that? That's the reason. I want to just gauge. Do you want to be alive or not?

[00:26:25] Now, what would the flavor be of the pink and purple pill if you could choose anything you want? Creme brulee. What? Because you asked what flavor. I like it to be creme brulee. If it's the last thing I'm going to swallow. Somebody I talked to yesterday, I remember you said, can I add something? Sure. I said, well, can I have like certain images, like a dreamlike image of the happiest memories of my life? I was like, sure. Wow. Yeah.

[00:26:54] Not bad. Like I'm going to say no. I like that. No. Don't get that when you don't. It's very clear what it does. You may not. Now, I know from prior discussions that you have tried a bunch of stuff to feel okay and be better and cope and deal. What is, I don't think I've ever asked this question quite like this. What's one thing you would never do? I will never go to a psych ward. Because? Because of control and safety.

[00:27:20] And having been, so for a brief period of time, I was an intensive outpatient case manager. And I've been in those spaces from the case management. It's not helpful. It's brutal. It's like prison. When people were talking about the stupid coloring sheets, there are a crap ton of coloring books. And I'm like, seriously? This is for grownups. This is for grownups. Yeah. And it's, no, I'm not going. I'm not going to call 911. I'm not going to call 988. I'm not checking myself in.

[00:27:50] I'm not doing it. Control and safety. Right. Because that all goes away the moment you step through those doors. Which is, which suck. It is because you would expect that people would be able to get the support that they need. But there's really no, for people who know the system, there's really no good place. I mean, if you're a gazillionaire, there's probably like four or five. It's just, it's just nicer prison. Well, if you're going to let go, if you're going to say, I need help, there's going to be some degree of control you're letting go of, right?

[00:28:20] Because you're literally saying, help me. And the professions and the professionals look at you like, oh, you're weak, you're in case. Well, that's a whole. And we're taking over. But that's not that. You're indicating that you can't do it and we're going to take over. Here's when you can eat. Here's what you can eat. Here's what, you know. It doesn't need to be that way. Right. No. Of course not. Because at the end of the day, I just want a hug or I just want somebody to come and sit with me or take a walk. But of course they would be like, that's what a crazy person said. That's what would happen.

[00:28:50] She's clearly not well. Oh my goodness. She needs a lot more. I can articulate what I need in that moment. I remember being in my therapist's office before I was sent. And it was like, and I said to him, I need a walk in the woods with my friend. A friend, which I didn't have. So I was like, oh, there's some real truth to that. I mean, it was a little bit like, okay, Sean, you need more than that. I know I need more than that. But don't discount it. Like a little nature and a good human being next to you.

[00:29:17] No, it's not going to be the treatment for schizophrenia. But I don't have that. I just need things to calm down. And for me, it is not what happens when you go to those places. It's not. So anyway, that's my experience. And some people I talk to. I also realize I get a self-selected group of humans. So my guess probably skew towards bad experiences, but they're suicide attempt survivors. And if it was an amazing experience, they might not have tried to kill themselves ever again. I never looked for that podcast.

[00:29:45] So I get a group of people that might have some similar thoughts about that, but not always. Well, anybody who's ever been to the hospital can tell you. Like, you get no rest in the hospital. They're constantly coming into your room, taking this, taking that. And it's like, holy crap. And that's people who are recovering from an actual physical piece. It's the same boop-boop when you go to a psych ward. You're just like, I just want rest. I want to be wrapped in a cocoon. Or this is what I would want.

[00:30:11] I would want to be wrapped in a cocoon, get me some creme brulee and a nice glass of wine. This has come up twice, the creme brulee. It's delicious. Do you see a thing kind of emerging? Okay. No creme brulee for you. Not there. Although, actually, my stay, the food was the one really good. Nice. I got fat there. I was just like, put on some weight. Because there was nothing else to do. It was that or go to the group thing where I was a grown man and they were like, set some goals for you today.

[00:30:40] I'm like, I don't want to set some motherfucking goals. I want to get the fuck out of here. And I want you to help me. I don't need goals. See? It's been a long time. I think they're gone now. So they're not fair. Anyone else have grippy socks? Raise your hand if you've had grippy socks. Oh, you don't know what we're talking about. You've seen them in movies, I'm sure. When you go to the hospital, they don't want you to slip and fall off. It's on your ass. See? Do you have grippy socks? You've worn them? Share more.

[00:31:09] This is a good time to transition. I was institutionalized when I was 19. So I spent about two weeks of suicide around my life. But yeah, I mean, my state was like, I think it's what you're talking about. There is going to be some level of control. You're under the responsibility of somebody else, right? Like I was someone like me. You're a legal agdolling too. Like if you look at the bigger scope, right?

[00:31:36] Like if something does happen to you under their care, then you've built a society. But that's not what's built. Like, so it's like, is it only what some is in the station? But yes, I've had grippy socks many times. Grippy socks. They were warm. What colors are yours? They were warm. Cream. Oh, cream. Light. Yeah, the blue ones are like, someone's making a lot of money with the blue socks. Yellow. They're like, can we make green ones?

[00:32:06] We're like, nah, man, the blue is working. Why do we got it changed? We're crushing it with the blue. We're blind. You got yellow? Yellow. I'm for things. Yeah. Is this a whole thing? No. Do you want to go back? I got it. That's the only way you're getting the signs. I actually have a question. Sure. I have a young person that recently disclosed that they are, they were having super suicidal ideation. And as a person, I've struggled with it my whole life.

[00:32:35] It was so hard for me to go into what I've been trained to do at the beginning as an adult. And it felt so fake. Like, because we can just, like, I don't know. My kid, I have two kids and one of them has struggled with suicide. And we've talked about it very blatantly. Like, yeah, that's a very normal feeling. And we said that, like, family was like, yeah, I felt that too. And, you know, and helped him kind of navigate those feelings.

[00:33:03] But I did feel like, like, it was this hard space for, like, I feel like I've been trying to tell people, like, you're going to feel better or it's going to get better, right? And it was kind of mentioned, like, what, how they respond. I think the difficult part is that I also felt, like, a liability, right? I was like, if this person does succeed their mother, I'm going to be the last person I called. You know?

[00:33:29] And I didn't know how to process through that because I think I'm the person that believes in death. And I'm very comfortable with it. I think it's just, like, life. It's hard to, like, hold space for this human. This is your kid or no? Not your kid. This is not my kid. But I would say, like, I support a lot of young people. And so this is, like, one of my closest young people. So it's, like, my kids. Like, I've seen them developing their support.

[00:34:01] And they had already done some things when they called me. Right. And I just was like, I'm going to keep going on. And I'm going to call the cops on you because you're a black human. It's a whole race. Wow. Yeah. But not knowing what next steps to do. You know what I mean? Like, totally not. Like, in this really weird place where I was like, I want to be like, yeah, I totally get it. But then also, like, ooh, am I being a liability? What do you mean when you say that?

[00:34:30] I mean it in the sense of, like, being the last person I talk to, person talks to, right? Or, like, what, like, I don't know. In this really weird space where you feel like you have control over, like, getting someone off the edge. But I know as a person that has attempted, there's no way to get this person off the edge. That person has to get themselves off the edge. And your role is, you're referring to your job primarily, right? This is my, this is like a mentor. This is not a job.

[00:35:01] Like, with this relationship, it's not a job. Because that sometimes brings with other, like, things you have no idea. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right? Yeah. If it was just, like, my job, I always had to call. Like, and we didn't even matter. Or risk things. Exactly. For yourself. But now, our relationship is extended. She is 25 years old. You know what I mean? And she's really in it. She's sick of it. So, I just wanted to hear, like, what does one do, right?

[00:35:29] Like, how did you work through other people? Like, we're talking about having this conversation with other people, right? And feeling like people don't hold space. And then the flip side is that it is really hard to hold space for that shit. Yes. Right? Yes. Yes. Even as a trained professional, right? There's layers to the way you can hold space for it. Yeah. And I feel like as a parent, I'm like, that won't be honest.

[00:35:54] And if my kids were, like, to feel it, you know, I don't want to say it is what it is, but they get to choose. Right. So, that internally, that's not what I've been trying. Right? I'm supposed to try to save everyone's life, essentially. But then also, like, part of not wanting to have those conversations. If you think about that whole space for those conversations. Like, what does one say? You don't want to encourage. Discouraging is not going to help either.

[00:36:24] Right. So. What do you think? I have some thoughts, but it's not probably what you're expecting. Oh, that's it. I would say. So, for me, one of the things, and this actually came up when we were having a member meeting or something. And one of the people on the call said that she wasn't going to be, they weren't going to be there for the next month. And there was, like, this very pregnant pause. And my response was, is there anything that we can do with you in between now and that moment?

[00:36:54] Is there a meal that you want? Can I come over? And we can just hang. Like, if this is it, if this is really it, then let's do some really cool stuff. Like, let's make these moments happen. Because in that moment, it felt like I was validating their choice. And sometimes people just need to have some good moments to kind of link one to another. And it becomes this, like, behavioral momentum. You're like, wow, somebody showed up. We went out. We had a burger.

[00:37:24] We had some laughs. We saw a stupid movie. Whatever it is. That's preventative. Maybe I can get up tomorrow morning. And maybe we can do something else cool. So, for me, that felt really natural and really appropriate in that moment to at least offer that. Because that's what I would want somebody to say to me. Not to try to talk me out of it, but be like, okay, cool. I'm coming over. If this is it, then we're going to do some really cool stuff between now and whenever that moment is.

[00:37:55] She used to live. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Which is amazing and super cool. Yeah. But it acknowledges that stuff is hard. And maybe we can string a couple of good moments together. And it'll make a difference. I know it would make a difference for me. Yeah. So. That's what I meant to her. So. Right in the point. But I didn't expect her to actually take eight bills of coffee. Oh. He went to a film festival.

[00:38:26] I had to throw out to all these things. So you're dealing with somebody who's trying. They're. No, but that's exactly like. While you're talking to them, they ingested pills. They were overdosing. That's a little different. I've gone. Okay. I had taken her out some lunch. He delivered to her children. Yeah. We were sharing recipes. And then the next day. Right. You know. He's like. Oh, wow. What did. Yeah. You know what I mean?

[00:38:56] It's like. I've never been in that situation. I know this. So it's like. Do I. Yeah. I don't know. You're an institutional. I don't know. Cops are you. But also like. You're. I'm a liability. Right. Like. In my position. You know. A lot of different spaces. I can be seen as a liability. So. That. It puts you in a very great circumstance. That's true. I kept her on the phone. For like seven hours. That's probably wise. Yeah. I was nowhere to do.

[00:39:25] You know. And I think this conversation. Is like really. I'm not triggering. But it's really making me feel like. I want us to be more honest. The stigma around it. I think that we still also have a solution. Or understand our methodology. Of how. Like that. Right. To me. That's what I need sometimes. Right. So. But I still think. That there's a. Gab of. Knowing how to support someone. Through that. As a society. So. It does make people feel uncomfortable.

[00:39:55] Because it's like. How do I support you? And then also. It's like. I don't want you to. I think the hardest thing. I've ever heard. Is my son telling me. He wants to kill himself. I bet. You know what I'm saying? So it's like. You don't want to hear love from someone you love. You know. And so I think. It. I would have. I would have loved. A better culture. That can talk about it. But I also think that. We don't have. The complete tools. Of how to support each other. Either. And ideology. And actual completion. Has to.

[00:40:25] Cliff slash games. I think. I'm positive. Very normal. I think it's weird. Actually. A person never thought. I agree. In today's day. That's freaking burning. Hey. I don't like it here. Sure. You know. To stay here. On the earth side. Of things. Yeah. Because it's like. Why are we even here? Yeah. Because we're. Bi-u-hub. Yeah. You know. That's huge. Yeah. Like. Yeah. We're a mutation. Of who knows what. Right. Things together.

[00:40:54] Like how did we lose the mission and go. Because baby it's not giving. Right. So. That's right. You know. Like. So I. I can't. I don't understand the other side. But. I also think that beyond the support. Or understanding of how to support each other. Through those conversations. And I don't think we. I don't think we do. I don't think we. I don't know if we ever. We all. There's a part of me. That's like. It's 2025. And I didn't want. To say that. We will. But I think what you did was great. Are they staying on the phone with. Oh no. That's right. I mean.

[00:41:25] You said that on the phone. Me. I'm in your. To the police inmates. Together. I will drive up to Denver. But I think. Okay. So they're an hour away. Yes. Which of those. That was kind of like. What was going through my mind. It's like. And I'm also a little pissed. I'm not going to front. You know what I mean. That's selfish way. Because they had already taken. The eight pills. Yeah. So that's already done. And where my mind. Kind of went. Was. And one of my. Favorite. People on earth. And I've never actually met her. Is Ashley Judd.

[00:41:54] But with her mom. And died by suicide. She was like. It's already done. And she had a couple of choices. In that moment. To be like. Do I call my mom. And get emergency services here. Now. Or do I just. Be with my mom. And she was like. I'm just going to be with my mom. I'm not going to. And I think what you did. I think. And that was another. So that was a moment. As a person. I've had so many. And I was going to be. And I get that close. And he's like. I'm going to be angry.

[00:42:25] I'm going to be big mad. Right. I think it takes a certain amount of courage. To get there. If you ask me. Like. I think. Suicide is the hardest thing. That I think a human. Can't do. To be honest. I don't think. I think. Catholicism has taught us. Or we didn't have thought. It's like. What is it called? A poverty. Of course. But I think it's the hardest thing. And so. Another piece of me was like. Is this what you want? Because I also think like. I think in Seattle. I have a legal artist.

[00:42:55] It is. Right. And it works for me. Yes. Whereas if you're. Yeah. If you're. Yeah. If you have like a terminal illness. Not like you're suicide. Like if you have. A certain kind of. Cancer. Yes. What I'm saying is that. I think that that should be an option. Absolutely. And in parts of Oregon. It is changing. To where it doesn't have to be a terminal illness. It's self-assisted suicide. If you live in that county. You have to live in that county. For like. Six months and a day. Yeah. To be a resident. To be. Call me.

[00:43:24] That's not a medical. Then they. If it's not medical. What do you mean like. Because I always wonder. The moment you have to ask somebody else. Essentially. Permission. You have to decide if I'm. Right. Then. Yeah. Self-assisted. So. What is that? It's still suicide. Because it's still the person giving. Their of. Sound mind. And their own cognition. Saying. I want. To. But somebody else has to give them the stuff. And I'm not saying it shouldn't be that. Somebody's deciding.

[00:43:54] You're eligible to kill yourself. I don't know the eligibility thing. I have to look it up. But. But it's somebody else decided. I don't. That's my point. Oh. I don't know how it. Okay. It's pretty progressive. I don't think you can. You can. If someone wants to. They have. They have access to. They have access to. Yeah. This is in a county in Oregon. This is a county in Oregon. From. In parts of Seattle. There was a special on. Dateline and 2020. That both did this.

[00:44:23] And the. The person that is a ministering it. Came into the room. The woman. That wanted. To. To die by suicide. Was giving her verbal permission. But then all. Of course. Ones of. Paperwork. Her signature. But then. She said. I'm going to give this to you. You won't wake up. But she's surrounded by friendly fans. Right. Well that's what happens. When you get to go out in your own time. When you get to go out in your own time. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So. I mean. And for me. And the Jets are very spiritual.

[00:44:53] So they're not. But it's a very beautiful. Spiritual. It's not a very. It's not a. Yes. Gross. For lack of a better word. Gross. I mean. Right. Trained religion. And theirs is not a religion at all. It's just. Mama just wanted. To go. Yeah. And. Yeah. He likes the Jetsick in time. He really likes the Jetsick. I mean. I was raised on. I was raised on that music. I was raised on their music. And Aretha Franklin. So like. Both of. You know. And so.

[00:45:24] Ashley's the younger one. Or the older one? Ashley's the. Ashley's the younger. Younger one. Bit of a naga. Yes. She's an actress. I think all three of them are. Yeah. But yeah. Yeah. And they have a half brother. Oh my God. You know. You know a lot about the Jetsick. But I think you're almost to the point where I'm concerned. Like. Just want to ask. No. I will. And I saw one. When she gave you. The Sunset 14 of the year. Yeah. I went to Laino in this concert. Uh huh. Tell her about me. Yeah. I mean. I was raised on her music. Come on man. I know this.

[00:45:54] She looks amazing. But she's just. Yeah. I think. Getting back to your. Yeah. And I just think. I don't know. I think that's the. Best. Most beautiful thing you could do in that moment. Because so many people would want to stop it. And a part of me. And maybe it's in my training. On my upbringing. Up near Yellowstone. Lived there for 18 years of my life. And the minute I can get out of that town. I definitely did. But. A part of me is like. That whole going back to the.

[00:46:24] Talking the person out of it. And I don't ever want to talk somebody out of. If that was their decision. But then there is a part of me that's like. I'm glad that you're still here. I'm glad that you're still here. That's something too. And I'm also like. You're 20. I don't mean. I'm not trying to be ageist. But it's like. You're 25. And it is hard. And you're going to have really hard moments. And. It's. You know. But they do get. Some things do get awkward. And some. There are still moments. Of joy.

[00:46:53] That you can still experience. Right. And for me on LA. Spiritualness is like a duality. We can't have suffering without joy. That's my belief system. So it's like. It's just duality. And it sucks. And it's laying here. It's together. And the planet's never come back. But you know. Here you are. Yeah. I just wanted to hear more about like. How to. Which. Would you quest to. We land out. Am I like. It's okay to feel like this. And just sitting in that space.

[00:47:23] Or am I. Not encouraging. Not discouraging. And it's really. I have found that not discouraging. Actually is. It's better for that human. Okay. In the long run. But also. It returns a liability. As the last human. That they might talk to on the farm. So like. What do we do? And how do we normalize it? Normalize what? Talking about suicide. Because I think. If someone's in a hotel. Like you were in. A hotel. Right. And you don't know.

[00:47:53] That residents go to their run and do. No. I don't even think about it though. Should I? I mean. I mean that. Not as in a. Should I? Screw you. No. I wonder. Because I have a very laissez-faire. Perhaps too much. Like. You're a grown up man. Want to enter into this conversation? Let's go. Let's do it. And I don't. It doesn't matter to me. Maybe. Maybe. I think when someone's younger. Maybe. Yeah. Maybe. That's fair. That's fair. In this particular case.

[00:48:22] This person was not young. Exactly. But. If I'm having that conversation with someone like. That's older. I'm like. You've seen the world a little bit more. Right? That decision feels a little bit more. Or. But then I'm listening. Like. Listening to you. And knowing my experience. Like. I've been having suicidal ideation for a very long time. Thanks. So it's like. Who am I? What do you mean? At what age to tell you. That it is okay for you to feel a certain way. If you've been feeling it.

[00:48:51] And suffering through it. Like. Listening to you say that. I was like. Oh shit. I was one one. Damn. You know what I mean? And so. I just. Wonder like. Is it fair to also put that category of like. You're only 25. When in fact. They need nothing to know about. And that's what she told me. It's like. I've been thinking about this since I was five. Whoa. So what happens? In those situations. Yeah. Gosh. I hope we do have an answer. No we don't. We have. We start clearing out. Like.

[00:49:21] Let's. Destigmatize. Talking about suicide. I think we also need a plan of how. To have conversations too. Right? And how it holds space for others. Yeah. I mean. A lot of people are not in her situation. Right? They're just. Talking. Thinking about something. It comes up. They didn't swallow hate pills. That's why I think it's also. An astounding. We're just so bad at it. Uh huh. And that's. A much larger group of people. I mean. I don't have data. But. Uh huh. For every person that's like.

[00:49:51] Got a gun. And has pills. Like there's a whole lot more people. That are swirling around. They're just thinking about it. They might get into that space. Or maybe they might not. It's like. I always think. People that are in the space between. They are the ones that we do not listen to. They're kind of like people. Like if you're going to do it. There'll be some people like. All right. Hang on. What. Some are going to overreact. Some are going to underreact. Some are like. We don't know. How do you handle it? But everybody else. We don't give a shit. This is my very extreme view. And I know it. But it's like. No. No. Everyone's got it. You know.

[00:50:20] All the platitudes. All the stuff. It's like. They don't want to hear it. I've. If 100%. It's like. Why not? It's. Yeah. It's so difficult. I mean. We have. Funding. Border. Right. You said prevention. If. For the right reasons. I mean. And I'm hoping that in the future. Putters will be. Or funding. But prevention meaning what though? Prevention meaning. I guess just. Preventing. Preventing suicide. But it's not working. Preventing. But the numbers are going up. I mean.

[00:50:50] But that could be. That might not be. I don't know. Fair. And the caring part of me is like. I want that in. I think it depends on the demographics. Right. Like. Yeah. I. Like for instance. When someone did do suicide. The best of the world. It's like. Programs aren't important for trans people. Sure. And race faces are done. Right. Mm-hmm. When you feel. Exhibit. Or we so friend. You have a friend. You have community. But. The United States. We don't isolate it so much.

[00:51:19] And it was built that way. It's on the eye. Right. And now. You're dealing with a mental. Health crisis. Because we are not. Mm-hmm. We aren't feeling very isolated. And. The shit's over. So. It was built up. That's done. Right. But I think. You can undo it. There are pieces of prevention. That could be. But. If we have elderly. Better elderly care. Right. So you're talking real prevention. Like. Getting people access to good food. Like. Oh. That's real prevention. But. But you're.

[00:51:49] But most people when they say. No. I could be wrong. I think in my experience. People talk prevention. I'll tell you what I'm going by. Facebook algorithm. Because I have a page. That is dedicated to suicide. So I see all of it. Right. It's not hard to find. It's not the algorithm. I don't see all of it. I see a lot of it. Biggest organizations. And the. I don't see a lot of. Prevention equals. Sometimes you see here and there. Of. Like. Better health. Like. Better housing. Respect. It's.

[00:52:18] It's really good. 988. Just talk about it. 988. It's like. That's what. In my. My lens of. Yeah. That's what we are calling prevention. And that's what. I get really angry about. I think it's. An absolute failure. For 90% of people. Oh absolutely. It's. Rightfully so. Yeah. Yeah. And it doesn't work. It doesn't work. Because you're on the phone for 90 seconds. Before somebody picks it up. I mean. And then at the end of the day. Like. Again. If. If I know. And I know myself well.

[00:52:48] If I know in that moment. What I need to. Right. To regulate. And get through that moment. Is somebody to come over. And take a walk with me. Or have a cup of tea. Or. Let's just. You know. Hug it out. Like. That person on the other line. Isn't going to be able to do that for me. Right. That's. They're just texting. Or they're just talking. Or whatever. And it's like. That's not what I need. No. I know what I need. Right. And that's not it. And you talk to folks on the podcast. Who were. Someone. And they're like. Hey. This is what I need. Like. I need. Housing. I need. Some food. I need some safety and security.

[00:53:18] Right. You know. Part of. You've talked to very few people. Who haven't had really traumatic lives. And I think that's the other piece. Can we please talk about. I probably attract that. Like. That's. Yeah. Stop brutalizing people. Like. Let's talk about that. Because that. It absolutely contributes to people not wanting. Of course. That was. That was a huge. For me as a child. I was like. People suck. They hurt me. I don't want to be. Bye. I don't want to do this. There's like a small percentage of people. I don't know. Actually. There's a number of people. I think. Probably skewing younger.

[00:53:47] Probably skewing towards first experience. Where it's like. That person on the nine and eight. Is what they needed. Like. I don't know how to handle this. What if my parents aren't here. I'm freaking out. Right. You have someone who's calm. Right. That is a small percentage of. Well. So fine. For that. But it's. Maybe I'm wrong here. Maybe I'm seeing it through the lens. There's an assumption. That is the answer. For all people. It's like. That is. For most people. Absolutely not there. To the other problem that I have. Is I'm very. I don't understand why there's a lack of transparency. Of what happens when you call.

[00:54:17] It's very strange. That. Well. I should know if I answer yes to the. Immunicative. What's going to happen. That's a norm. I'm an adult. Even if I weren't. Why is that a surprise? And I. And I. There was somebody I was talking to recently. Who worked on one of those lines. And she said. No. I tell them. If you answer yes to these. So I said. I don't. Is that becoming more common? Because I think what they think. Is not. We need to trick you into saying yes. Because you really might be this way. And we don't. We need you to be honest. But it's. If. Yeah. If.

[00:54:47] If they know. They won't be honest. They won't get the health. The help they need. They'll thank us later. You know. But when you're honest. Like we need you to get the help you need. So answer on. Bah bah bah. But it's like. But. But you shouldn't be. You know what I mean. So if the help is handcuffs. And forced this. And it's like. It's only two hours. But Sean. I go to the doctor often. And I get my eye injections. And they ask those questions. Do you feel safe at home? You have thoughts of wanting to hurt yourself? How many. How many days. More and more. They ask it everywhere. And I say. Yes. Yes.

[00:55:16] Yes. Yes. Yes. Every now and then. I'll have a little tech person turn and say. Do you want to talk to somebody about this? And what I say is. There's nobody here that can help me. Right. That ophthalmologist is a very nice man. He's. He's not going to be able to help me in this moment. And I just keep staring forward at the wall. And sometimes I cry. And I'm just like. Why are you even asking me these questions? Why do you think they ask the ophthalmologist? Because it's just standard protocol. They put it in the chart. Yeah. The whole part of it. Become a legal liability.

[00:55:45] And we are not talking about the legality. No. That's for sure. If you call that number. And they don't do anything. You. They can get sued. Like. So they do. But what. So how do they handle that? Then they. They have to do. What they. What's going to put them in the best legal space. Where they're asking you all the questions. And then they're trying to hold space for you. I don't know. I think you're also depends on your personality. Like. I have. Usually when I'm having a plan. And I'm making it. I've been known to like.

[00:56:16] Leave. I'm driving. I dropped my kids off. And I know exactly what plan I'm going to make. And I'm not. I'm about to hit work. And I'll just turn around. And I'll go right into. I'll just admit myself for like four hours. I didn't know. You know what I mean? At that end of the forum. Yeah. Well you know you. Well I mean. Part of it is also like. I just need a safe space. For. A significant amount of time. Where I don't have to problem solve. And then. You know what I mean? Right. I get problem solving fatigue.

[00:56:45] And so that stops my whole life for four hours. That where I don't have to take care of everybody. And. That used to be my methodology. I think there's something I'm struggling with. Because I think the thing that you brought up about community. There's something about. Somebody knows that. So you said that you were going to kill yourself. Or you're threatening something. And this. Like. I'm really having a hard time articulating this.

[00:57:11] And so there's this idea that the person who hears it has to take some kind of action. Feels like a spy to me. I know that's going to sound really weird. But it's not that it's a spy. It feels to me. Creepy. Like. And also. You have an ideation. But if you really want to do it. I feel like if the people that I have known. Complete. They didn't tell anyone. Right. Because of Shane McGill. They were done. They were done. I get it. Right. Like they were over it. There was more conversation. Right. There was nothing to be done. Done.

[00:57:41] And so if we know the truth of the matter. Right. If someone actually says. Right. They have a plan. They actually are not really done. Possibly. Possibly. Sure. There's a piece there. That they're not really jumping off the cliff. Uh huh. Uh huh. No. No. That was a really good pun actually. I usually. I usually go like. Oh. You don't really like it. Right. So. But all that. So like. If they are reaching out. That means that they actually. Do want a little bit.

[00:58:11] They want to be held just a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. Well. I think so. They're holding on to something. So it does make you a liability. Because you're the last person. They would possibly hold it on to. Well. I wouldn't have a problem if I was the last person. I mean. I don't think. Poor son of a lot. Yeah. Like. That's cool. I mean. I think I do a better job than some others. At least you have to talk to somebody who gave a shit. Yeah. But that's a. I think it's really interesting in that notion. Because I think. Yeah. And I also. Just to answer your original question. I like.

[00:58:40] I'm super. Like. I stay in my lane. I don't pretend that I have. Like. I'm a podcaster. No. No. And I talk to mostly strangers. And it's a one off. I don't pretend that I should be giving any. Dropping wisdom on. But. I do think this thing. People can take some things from that. And apply. And say. How do you. Get people to open up. That's a skill. Even if they're. Wanting to be on. Some of them are not so quick to open up. All right. So how do you do that? There's ways to do it. I think there's more than that.

[00:59:10] I think that there's more people that do give a shit. Than I think that leads. I think that. Sometimes. It feels healthier to feel like everybody. Yeah. Right. Sorry. To me. That's. Because I know that there are people on my follow. That annoy the shit out. But if they call me. And they. They just. And they do it all the time. I don't invoice them. Right. And they will be on the phone for three hours. But that's what they need. Yeah. But you're probably a really good listener. Right?

[00:59:40] No. I suck at his. I don't believe you. I'm a talker. That's not what. But that's. Those are not. Those are not the opposites. I think part of it is that. I'm a good humaner. Like I'm okay with humans being humans. Yes. And that's. You. I think there's a. I have empathy towards a lot of humans. I've had a hard life. Right. I understand that. Had I not had. One human or two humans. They're going to be here.

[01:00:09] But I think. There are a lot more people like that. Yes. It's just that if everybody thinks that no one is going to be there. Then nobody's going to be there for nobody. Mm-hmm. Right? I think people are really busy. I think that we're also distracted. I think that. I think we're really distracted. We are also under the most amount of stress in our society that we've ever experienced as a female experience. Right? Where we. Uh-huh. It's adding. The busy, distracted. We don't learn certain skills. So you might have it. I might have it. You might have it. You might figure it out as you go along. But like.

[01:00:40] People don't really learn. This all. So let's just do it. Right. All of it. It's just massive. Right. Right. Right. Because we're not working two jobs necessarily. No. Three. No. You know what I'm saying? Well, if you have. You have the time as a luxury when you're just. You know. You said something about community. And then connecting this to this. You knew that your friend was reaching out.

[01:01:08] So probably she wasn't done yet. And there's something about what you said with community. And basically how we don't have that. Because what we're trying to do, it feels like. And I'm not going to have the words for this exactly. Is we're trying to commit fake community. So it's like. All of this stuff. Is as if we are a community. Because the only way for you to really know and help. Like the 988 who doesn't know you. Like come on. Is if I know you a little. And I have the time. But we don't have that. And we're not going to have that. So let's make pretend.

[01:01:37] Like it looks like that. But it doesn't work that way. Just like a lot of these. What's the other person is struggling with the mob. Yeah. This person is literally saying exactly. Right. It's all bullshit. Is that saying like it's all. It's like it's all bullshit. Or people are facetive. Or people have different intentions. Or people don't know how to show up for other people. Or people are using each other. Right. Also conversation around collective liberation. Right. Who's included. Who isn't included. Right. Who has privilege. Who doesn't have privilege.

[01:02:08] You know. All of these dynamics. A fake community. It's a fake. It feels. Yeah. Like a lot of bullshit. And I try to check myself. Because I'm like. God. These organizations. Right. Some of them. Like they're doing some really good things. So I'm just seeing this one little. Why don't you understand what I'm doing? Like I know there's a lot of that. Like. Little. Yeah. Bitch boy stuff. That I'm doing about myself. I know. But it really does. Feel that way. Yeah. In that it's like. I've never been able to find the words. Like. What.

[01:02:36] There's something so off about it. Yeah. Because we're not real. It's not. We're not. Yeah. We're not authentic about it. We're not. And we can't. I want magic relationships. Right. Like. If I tell you. Right now. You've offended me. And I tell you exactly what it is. In New York. We can do that. And we can respect each other. After the conversation. In most spaces. It's not like that. We're very passive aggressive. We get very defensive automatically. People can't deal with conflict. And. You know. Coming from.

[01:03:06] A space of like. Being a bi-popped human. That's all we do. I come into the house. As a Puerto Rican. And my family is like. Da-da-da-da-da. They're just saying exactly what they feel. And I'm over here. Throwing the shade back. Right. That's authentic though. That's authentic. Nobody is holding their tongue for nobody else. Right. And there's none of that. There's no. Right. There isn't. And I think. The intention of MI88 is. A great.

[01:03:35] I'm actually. It's a great resource. I'm. Just going to know what it is. During the time when I have. 988 along. 911. But it's just. It's scientific. And it's. And it's. You just got to know what it is. It has a purpose. Know what the purpose is. But don't get confused by it. Because you'll be disappointed. And sometimes incarcerated. Yes. So just know what it is. Yeah. Know what it is. That then it will work fine. Right. But. But. But. I don't like when the messaging. I know. I know we're talking about it. So I'll shut up. Is. Oh. But.

[01:04:05] It's so much. No. It's not more. It is what it is. It. It serves a purpose. But it's not all these other things. And the largest. And who were you going to listen to? You're an 18 year old kid. And the biggest organizations are saying. Yes. This is the answer. You're an idiot not to listen. And this is my problem. I know. Yeah. So without naming names. They're large. They're well funded. Yeah. There's a reason why they're. And I'm sure they need well. Yeah. There's a reason why they're pushing this narrative. It does.

[01:04:35] It becomes not authentic. Yeah. But I think. Last thing I'm going to say is that. I think all of this is a huge nuance. That we're not talking. Right. When we talk about mental health. Mental health. Like. Us talking about it lately. It's like 10 years old. I know. 10 years old. Like even. This is a huge nuance. Right. Huge. Finally getting to a point. Or even postpartum depression. Right. I remember when. Five years ago.

[01:05:03] Postpartum depression became like a conversational piece. And I remember when I had 16 years ago. When I was going through it. People thought I was crazy. Because I did not feel connected to my child. I have. By total disorder. PTSD. Then having a hormone shift. Of course. No one even told me there was a such thing as postpartum depression. Right. And I think sometimes when we have these conversations. We also have to realize. Like. These are the baby steps. Yeah. To get us into these more. Hopefully. Into these more authentic places. That we are. Doing more research.

[01:05:32] More data informed decision making around it. I think people should have access to do it. Like to. Uh huh. Like. And their lives. Suicide is always going to be true. Definitely. I think. It's going to be. I think because it's an action. Treat it differently. I think because it's an action. And it's not a condition. For lack of a better word. It's not a feeling. Yes. You get a suicidal ideation. That might be recognized by a DSM-4. Fine. But it's. I think because of. And I hope we're wrong.

[01:06:01] By the way. It's an action. And that's different. It's. You're doing something. You're doing something. All the stuff that makes you do it. That might get the attention. But the actual act. I don't know. I mean in my lifetime. There's no way. Because I hear people. We're not more open about suicide conversations. I don't think. We're way more open about certain. Threads within mental health. Mental illness. Like you just pointed out. Suicide. I actually think it's regressed a little bit. I don't. I think it's bizarrely bad.

[01:06:31] I think that it's hitting a bad burner. Because. Yeah. Also damn. When society is trying to abuse us. Yeah. Right. So. Wives. Wait. This is not the time to hide. Right. Right. Like. It's like the conversation around not having more children. Right. Right. Like. I think that if we gave ourselves more autonomy to do a lot of other things. Then this would be on the docket. But that goes against what capitalism and what. Right. Like all of those pieces. Because if someone has access to the pill. You know. Her client.

[01:07:01] Let's be real. It is a financial thing. Someone has access if they want to leave the link. Yeah. Of course. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And also. And also. And also. This is something I have really thought about. And I asked it. It sounds like. Careful how I asked it. I'm like. Why don't you kill yourself if you want to kill yourself? Because there are ways that work. Mm-hmm. Yeah. You go to a high enough place. You're not living. Mm-hmm. Now. You might not have access. So. I don't mind. That's not me wanting someone to do that. I'm wondering. What's going on?

[01:07:30] I don't think your body. Like when you were talking about. Like when your body hits the water. Even if you know mentally. You don't want it to be. Right. If your body is able to save itself. Yeah. Yeah. It will do it. Right. Right. So. It's like. The mind body connection is at a different place. If it comes completely different. Right. Yeah. Instinct. And. Because there are so many people that have really. Mentally wanted to do it. But their body will try to save them. Can't drown. Yeah. You can drown only if you put weights on. Right. You will cannot drown yourself.

[01:08:00] Your brain will tell. You cannot drown yourself. Yes. So you can't. You can't. You can't. Yeah. Yeah. Like I don't know. I'm sure someone's done it. Where they're like. No. I'm just going to stand there. I'm just going to sit. Yeah. Like you're asking your body to do something. Everything. Yeah. That it's not going to naturally. It's been actually trying to survive. For. Forever. Yeah. Yes. Collectively. Evolutionarily. For so long. But you are not to do that. That's why I think it's the craziest.

[01:08:29] Fucking insanely. I know I shouldn't use those words. Just the most. I don't know. Like not cowardly. It's like the opposite. Exactly. Oh yeah. Because it's so hard. Yeah. It's a lot of them not. And it just. It just tells me how much pain somebody's like. Hi. We're coming to the tail end of our convo. Yeah. It's 8 o'clock. We probably have to wrap it up. It is meant to be authentic. Yeah. Authentic health. Turns into very. Something very scientific. And very. We're going to. Put you here on a subject.

[01:08:59] You want to hold. And the person doesn't want to be a subject. All right. They just want. Connection. A connection. Sometimes that's all they want. Sometimes. Sometimes they need a lot more. Sure. Community. And sometimes they just want to be by themselves. Segwaying over to Boulder. Where there were some other things that came up in that conversation. That did not come up in Colorado Springs. So I'm sort of tagging that on to the end of this podcast. To hear more from Diana in the Rockies. There's things that came up the other day that I think.

[01:09:27] There's also some things you're doing now to specifically prepare. Yeah. There's like a lot of foresight. Being very intentional about preparatory acts. Doing things that scare me. Doing things that get my heart racing. So I learned how to ride a motorcycle. I am. Thank you. I'm taking some rock climbing courses so that I can be comfortable at heights. So hang on. This is not just I want to enjoy this. It is. I want to prepare for that moment. It's a both and. Yeah. Mm-hmm. So you don't want to get there and not. And then not do it.

[01:09:58] Yeah. And then be like, oh my gosh, I can't do this. Then what? Then what? Yeah. Yeah. Then at that point you have already donated all your money to the Suicide Noted Global Project. Yeah. Absolutely. A hundred percent. I know. I'm like, sorry. Can't give that up. Someone that you stayed alive. Sorry. Spent all the money already. I'll pay for your flight back. And then you're on your own. If there were somebody that absolutely somehow magically you need for sure would be there in the way exactly you wanted them to be there, would that change your mind? I mean if they would kill me for me?

[01:10:28] No. So you said that you don't want someone to. You don't trust people. Right. To be there for you in the way you want them to. Mm-hmm. If I could guarantee you that there would be one person that was there and showed up the way you wanted them to be with that. If we had like. I'm not trying to talk you out of it. I'm trying to understand. If we had like a magic wand. Magic wand. Oh. No, I can't. No, no. I'm not taking anything about the slow death. Yeah. That's nature. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You want to off yourself earlier? That's okay. Yeah. But I don't know it's because you're here about the control. Yeah. The trust.

[01:10:53] If we had a magic wand and we could magically make somebody appear that I knew definitively guaranteed that they would be kind to me until I took my last breath. Yes. Then yes. Okay. Wow. Let's tell them. They got a new pill. One's pink and purple. I got to get another pill. But people are not trustworthy. No. Can I ask this question? Why do you IDA? Actually, I'm more curious of what it kind of what it feels like, what you think about or how it presents. Mm-hmm. You know? Yeah.

[01:11:22] It kind of depends on the day. I think some days feel relatively okay and I want to stay in that moment and some days are not okay and I want to fast forward through the next 18 years and 364 days. And then there's probably some variation in between. And I will tell you that it makes those okay moments that much sweeter because I sit in them and I enjoy them because I know they're finite and they're really special.

[01:11:48] And I'm like, and I tell people sometimes when I have an experience with them and I tell them, these are some of the beautiful memories that are going to sustain me when things are really hard. So thank you for being part of that. Thank you for helping me create that happy memory or that, you know, whatever it is, because that's going to hold me on for just a second longer. Yeah. I'm very open with people. I don't hide it. People know. And they're either comfortable. Let me back that up.

[01:12:15] They're either okay with me saying it periodically or they completely shut me down and I just don't even mention it. People shut you down widely in your life because you've no choice for them to be. Well, I like them other than the fact that I know that the reality is, is that they're not really there for me. So much nicer. This is why I don't have any friends. Yeah. Because you can't have them. All right. So you have a little space you create for them that's like, all right. Yeah.

[01:12:45] We can hang out. We can do this thing. Yeah. And no further. We can make art together. Sure. Or we can walk the dogs together. 100%. Other things. Go paddle boarding. Have some lunch. But we're not going to have real conversation. Just as when my partner passed and grief was part of who I am and is still part of who I am, to have a real conversation with people, for me, a real conversation has to include the totality of who I am in that moment. And if you want me to edit myself out, then that's not a real conversation. That's how I feel. Yeah.

[01:13:14] That's why it makes me not. People can't do it. Yeah. And I get visibly annoyed. Yeah. They want the edit button. I have a family member who now at this point just asks me, how are you physically feeling? Right. Because they don't want to hear about any of my emotional life at all. And they've made that very clear. Oh, that's... And so they specifically say... Yeah. They specifically say, how are you feeling physically? Because in the past, they've said, how are you feeling? And then I go off on this conversation about my emotional life.

[01:13:43] And that makes them very uncomfortable. And so now they just literally give me parameters. How are you feeling physically? Oh, can we go play this for a moment? Can we do this? Sure. I just... I don't know how I would respond that I want to play the game. It's not like... I guess it depends on who it is. So what would you say? How are you feeling physically? What do you say?

[01:14:12] I lie and I say I'm fine. I just flip it. I mean, especially if people are like... If I know that they really don't want the truth, and they say, how are you doing? And so there's this quick calculation in your head of like, what do they really want to hear? Am I comfortable in telling them the truth? And if I don't, then I just flip it. And I say, you know what? The better question is, how are you doing? And then they go with it. Most people love to talk about themselves. Of course. And so they just like...

[01:14:40] And they never come back around to... But that wasn't the original question. The original question was, how are you doing? Because they don't care. Because they don't care. And if they don't really care, then I'm not going to tell them. I don't know if that's the reason. No, that's the reason. They don't care. Well, sometimes what happens to me in the podcast, I have that. And it's probably for different reasons. In my case, they're just overwhelmed. And they're trying to... 10 minutes in, I'm like... So let's get back to the question I asked. Yeah. Mm-hmm. I understand.

[01:15:10] So... Yeah. You do have to give a shit. Yeah. Because it makes it then rather easy to be like, actually, all that I still don't actually know what you're doing. Yeah. Yeah. So you didn't say that. So now I just want to know that because actually that's what I want to know. Yeah. Then it's easy to remember. Yeah. Because you just want to know. Yeah. So... And that totally flips the switch. Yeah. And then I lean in and then I will be honest and vulnerable. And then I will have a deeper connection with that person and have a lot more respect for them. Right. But I have a lot... I have very little respect for most people I encounter.

[01:15:40] Oh, anyway. We'll just lose. It's getting way worse. Doesn't apply to you. Thanks for talking, Deanna. As always, thanks so much for listening and all of your support. Special thanks to Deanna in Colorado. Thanks, Deanna. And of course, to our lively and engaged audience. If you are a suicide attempt survivor or ideator and you'd like to talk, please reach out. I'd love to talk with you. Hello at suicidenoted.com. This has been a long episode and a good episode.

[01:16:11] So I'm just going to stop it right there. That's all for this week. Stay strong. Do the best you can. I'll talk to you soon.