David in California

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_03]: By the third day, the other patients literally refused to answer the phone. Because the word went out like, oh my God, David's in trouble. You know, and these people, and they would just call and just say, man, I'm so sorry that you're suffering. I love you. What can I do for you? Oh my God, it's incredible.

[00:00:39] [SPEAKER_00]: Hey there, my name is Sean and this is Suicide Noted. On this podcast, I talk with suicide attempt survivors so that we can hear their stories.

[00:00:47] [SPEAKER_00]: Every year around the world, millions of people try to take their own lives and we almost never talk about it. We certainly don't talk about it enough. And when we do talk about it, many of us, including me, we're not very good at it.

[00:00:59] [SPEAKER_00]: So one of my goals with this podcast is to have more conversations and hopefully better conversations with attempt survivors. In large part to help more people in more places feel a little less shitty and a little less alone.

[00:01:11] [SPEAKER_00]: Now, if you are a suicide attempt survivor and you'd like to talk, please reach out. Hello at suicidenoted.com. You can also find us on Facebook at Suicide Noted. And if you'd like to share a thought, a comment, an idea, you've got a question, please reach out as well.

[00:01:26] [SPEAKER_00]: I really do like hearing that kind of thing. And sometimes people do and it's great. So if you're one of those people and you're thinking about it, I'd love to hear from you.

[00:01:33] [SPEAKER_00]: If you would like to learn more about the podcast, you can check the show notes. There's a lot of stuff there, including our membership, which is a paid membership. It comes with some perks. So if that's your thing, please check it out.

[00:01:47] [SPEAKER_00]: And finally, we are talking about suicide on this podcast and we don't hold back. So please take that into account before you listen or as you listen. But I do hope you listen because there's so much to learn.

[00:01:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Today, I'm talking with David. David lives in California and he is a suicide attempt survivor.

[00:02:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Hey, David.

[00:02:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Sean, my brother. How are you?

[00:02:10] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm doing okay. How are you doing?

[00:02:11] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm good, man. I'm good.

[00:02:13] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:02:13] [SPEAKER_00]: What part of California do you live in, David?

[00:02:16] [SPEAKER_02]: I live outside of Sacramento. And so Northern California can get a little toasty. And it was toasty yesterday. And today is wonderfully cool.

[00:02:24] [SPEAKER_00]: Sweet. Well, thanks for not being outside, at least for the next whatever amount of time we're talking.

[00:02:30] Exactly.

[00:02:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Just for our audience's sake, you know, they can't see us. They won't see us. Well, they won't see me. I know you, but we'll talk about that later on about some of the stuff you've done and they will see your face, but we're both bald.

[00:02:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[00:02:42] [SPEAKER_00]: We're both wearing glasses.

[00:02:44] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, we are.

[00:02:46] [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, this is obviously somewhat subjective. I think we're both pretty good looking guys.

[00:02:50] [SPEAKER_02]: There we go. Well, thank you, brother. You know what? Because I certainly believe that about you. And for you to say that about me, I feel good. Thank you.

[00:02:56] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. Let me share with you. So one, thanks very much for reaching out. Appreciate it.

[00:03:01] [SPEAKER_02]: No. Well, and if I may say to you, brother, thank you so much for allowing me to be in your space because your space is sacred. This is your, obviously this is the, I would assume is the one of the, if not the main focus and purpose of your life.

[00:03:18] [SPEAKER_02]: And, and it's a very, it's sacred. And so to be included, to be invited, to be in the space, I mean, that is just an enormous privilege. Yeah. So thank you.

[00:03:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, it's not just our space. It is the listener space too. You know, they're out there all over the, you know, well, we don't have massive numbers, but we're in the middle of the pack and it's a niche or niche, but they're out there.

[00:03:41] [SPEAKER_00]: They hear this stuff and they do let me know what they like and don't like. And typically it's, you know, what's working or helping. We haven't sucked because we've been doing it for four years.

[00:03:52] [SPEAKER_00]: So, and by the way, when I say we, for some reason, I don't know why I do that. It's me. It's just one guy at his kitchen table. Okay.

[00:03:59] [SPEAKER_00]: I got it.

[00:03:59] [SPEAKER_00]: Most people, I think, who attempt to end their lives, whether it's once or more than once, or are, let's say close, they don't talk about it. Maybe if they're lucky, they have a good therapist that can hear all that. Maybe they have a friend or a partner or somebody else, maybe a guy or a gal down at the pickleball courts. But most people just don't talk about it.

[00:04:23] [SPEAKER_00]: I know, you know where this question is going probably. So I am curious what compels you because you've talked about it more than just you're doing here, I believe. And we'll get into that later to talk about why share something that so few do.

[00:04:37] [SPEAKER_02]: My main motivation, it's really twofold because of the fact that for me, you're a hundred percent right in me talking about it. I want the person who hasn't talked about it to feel like they're heard even without, even without saying anything.

[00:04:55] [SPEAKER_02]: I guess it would be threefold. Second is I want people who don't get how somebody could ever get to that terrible space. I want them to understand, oh, wow. Okay. This is how somebody could get there.

[00:05:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Story would be incomplete if I didn't talk about this last step. I could describe everything that got me up to that point. But if I don't talk about this last step, i.e. the attempt, then I feel like the story's incomplete. I want people to understand the hell that people like me have lived with.

[00:05:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Hmm. And third, in telling that part of the story, it allows me and gives me the space to talk about where I am now. And that's important, not only to let people know, okay, it is possible to survive, but even more important for me, brother, is that that's the space that I get to say thank you to all the amazing people in my life.

[00:05:56] [SPEAKER_02]: Hmm.

[00:06:26] [SPEAKER_00]: And they may, you know, these people in their life may be very well intentioned, may love them, but they just don't have insert word. I don't know what it is to have engage in a way where the person who's dealing with this pain wants to really open up and talk. And as a result of that may feel a little lighter. And that I do believe that is the single, that's the thing. And it might just be one person. It sounds like you have more than one, which is, which is great. One fucking person.

[00:06:49] [SPEAKER_00]: So I am never the guy to say to other people, here's what you should do to support people in your life. It comes up sometimes, but it's, I'm not a big should guy. I don't know. I guess if you've gone through it like you have, and we're about to dive in, you get it.

[00:07:02] [SPEAKER_02]: A hundred percent.

[00:08:03] [SPEAKER_02]: Connection creates hope and hope saves lives.

[00:08:07] [SPEAKER_02]: So what I, and then, and then, and that's not hope is like some bullshit, like a kind of cute little thing. Like, no, it has it like there's a very, there's a, there's like this logistical specificity about hope.

[00:08:19] [SPEAKER_02]: So that that's why I use that particular, this is Lexus, by the way.

[00:08:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Don't want to cut you off on the hope comment, but just so everyone knows here, David has got a, uh, well, he's got a cute pug that's walking all over everywhere.

[00:08:36] [SPEAKER_00]: But there's more than that. There's more than that. They need to know in your setup, which is far nicer than mine. We've got four pictures.

[00:08:43] [SPEAKER_00]: There is a picture. Well, picture number one in, uh, clockwise is pugs picture. Number two, which going clockwise now are pugs picture. Number three, I can't see so well, but I believe they are pugs.

[00:08:56] [SPEAKER_00]: And then there's a large picture. Uh, and I believe if I had to guess they are pugs.

[00:09:03] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, exactly.

[00:09:04] [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm going to, I'm just going to go out on a limb here and say, you kind of like pugs.

[00:09:09] [SPEAKER_02]: Just a little bit brother. So the, the big picture in the back is a, a flag, that flag, that specific flag has been on top, was taken to the top intentionally to Mount Kilimanjaro.

[00:09:24] [SPEAKER_02]: A big part of my former life, I was, I was married to an amazing woman who thank God is still a dear friend of mine. She, she texted me today by chance.

[00:09:34] [SPEAKER_02]: Deanna. We ran a very large animal sanctuary. The animal sanctuary was called a chance for bliss. And at one point we had 100 animals at any one time.

[00:09:46] [SPEAKER_00]: Where was this? California?

[00:09:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 25 horses, 23 dogs, nine pot belly pigs, goat, sheep, ducks, geese, bunnies, birds, turtles, fish, cows. And, and we were primarily, and this is all because of my former bride, because of her amazing heart.

[00:10:01] [SPEAKER_02]: We were primarily end of life. So we did no adoption. So animals came and they stayed until they made their, as we like to say, their transition. And then all the work that we did, we had 90 animals transition from this life experience to.

[00:10:16] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, so your main role, this, this sanctuary's main role is to make a space for them to feel loved and supported and comfortable as they died.

[00:10:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Exactly. So we also took special needs animals. So we took animals rather than nobody wanted.

[00:10:31] [SPEAKER_03]: The place was just, it was phenomenal.

[00:10:33] [SPEAKER_02]: So the sanctuary is important because I got to do it with this amazing soul. A lot of the stories that I tell in my work are animal stories from the sanctuary to take this daunting subject of suicide and mental health and grief and all these other things that you and I talk about.

[00:10:56] [SPEAKER_02]: And you wrap it in an animal story without, and it doesn't dull the, it doesn't dull the intention down, but it makes the delivery of it.

[00:11:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Sure.

[00:11:07] [SPEAKER_02]: And the message, it just makes it easier to hear.

[00:11:12] [SPEAKER_02]: That's why at the end of the, the two talks that I had told you about there's in the first talk it's at the end is this amazing story about a horse named Odie that is just phenomenal.

[00:11:26] [SPEAKER_02]: And then the second one is a story about a dog named Murphy.

[00:11:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Anyway, to go back in real, this is actually a perfect segue back to hope that connection creates hope and hope saves lives.

[00:11:39] [SPEAKER_02]: And see, for me, it's about, you gotta have it be tangible.

[00:11:44] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't want hope to be just like, oh, that's so great.

[00:11:46] [SPEAKER_02]: No, you know what?

[00:11:47] [SPEAKER_02]: Forget that.

[00:11:49] [SPEAKER_02]: So here's, here's why, again, and I shared with you, I'm a freak about definitions and quotes.

[00:11:54] [SPEAKER_05]: Uh-huh.

[00:11:54] [SPEAKER_02]: So here's, here's the definition.

[00:11:57] [SPEAKER_02]: First, let me give you the quote of connection from the great Brene Brown.

[00:12:02] [SPEAKER_00]: The Brene Brown famous woman.

[00:12:05] [SPEAKER_02]: Incredible.

[00:12:05] [SPEAKER_02]: So here's what, check this out.

[00:12:07] [SPEAKER_02]: This is so great.

[00:12:07] [SPEAKER_02]: These are her words, not mine.

[00:12:09] [SPEAKER_02]: I define connection as the energy that exists between people when they feel seen, heard, and valued, when they can give and receive without judgment, and they derive strength and sustenance from the relationship.

[00:12:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Seen, heard, valued.

[00:12:27] [SPEAKER_02]: So, okay, that creates hope.

[00:12:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, all right, all right, what's hope?

[00:12:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Here's hope.

[00:12:33] [SPEAKER_02]: You know what the definition of hope is?

[00:12:35] [SPEAKER_00]: I do not.

[00:12:36] [SPEAKER_00]: This is so great.

[00:12:38] [SPEAKER_02]: The, and this is so, I love the fact that the second word in this definition is feeling.

[00:12:45] [SPEAKER_02]: Because this malady that drove me to wanting to kill myself, it was, it's a, it's a malady of feeling.

[00:12:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Thought plays a part, but it's, you just, ultimately, it just, how are you feeling?

[00:12:58] [SPEAKER_02]: So here's what hope is.

[00:13:00] [SPEAKER_02]: The feeling that what is wanted can be had.

[00:13:04] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:13:05] [SPEAKER_02]: So then let me apply this.

[00:13:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Let me, let me check myself.

[00:13:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Is it, so does hope save lives?

[00:13:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, well, wait, well, hope is the feeling that what is, that what is wanted, I want my pain in, I want to feel connected.

[00:13:18] [SPEAKER_02]: I want to, I want to have a million dollars.

[00:13:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Whatever it is, the feeling that what is wanted can be had.

[00:13:24] [SPEAKER_02]: So if I feel that way, I'm not going to kill myself.

[00:13:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Let me push back.

[00:13:30] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[00:13:31] [SPEAKER_00]: There are a good, not a small number of people I've talked to that are really hoping to die, have tried to die, continue to want to die.

[00:13:37] [SPEAKER_00]: Now, you could say, one could say, if X, Y, and Z were in your life, you may feel differently.

[00:13:42] [SPEAKER_00]: I love the definition of hope.

[00:13:45] [SPEAKER_00]: I think that there's sometimes this like default, for lack of a better word, feeling that, and a very valid one, by the way, like, because some people will say, if you try to kill yourself, you're not well.

[00:13:56] [SPEAKER_00]: Period, right?

[00:13:57] [SPEAKER_00]: I would say, hold up.

[00:13:58] [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe very true.

[00:13:59] [SPEAKER_00]: Often, very the case.

[00:14:00] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not the one to make such a diagnosis.

[00:14:02] [SPEAKER_00]: I guess this speaks in part to this taboo about it, talking about it, obviously doing it.

[00:14:09] [SPEAKER_00]: And so we're rather quick, I'm not suggesting you are at all, to put it over here.

[00:14:15] [SPEAKER_00]: And what's the word I'm looking for here?

[00:14:17] [SPEAKER_00]: It's bad.

[00:14:18] [SPEAKER_00]: It's wrong.

[00:14:19] [SPEAKER_00]: It's this.

[00:14:20] [SPEAKER_00]: It's that.

[00:14:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Done.

[00:14:21] [SPEAKER_00]: There's no conversation, right?

[00:14:23] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know where I'm going with this.

[00:14:25] [SPEAKER_00]: I just wonder, there's just a lot of people that are not, they don't feel hope.

[00:14:30] [SPEAKER_00]: Because you said you don't like or lean away from the sort of abstract ideas you want tangible.

[00:14:35] [SPEAKER_00]: Very.

[00:14:36] [SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[00:14:36] [SPEAKER_00]: So if somebody's been struggling for 15 years and you don't have that hope, or, and we might

[00:14:43] [SPEAKER_00]: be talking about semantical differences here, they hope to die.

[00:14:47] [SPEAKER_00]: At what point is this sort of feeling valid?

[00:14:52] [SPEAKER_00]: How many years does somebody have to struggle where A or others say, what you're feeling makes

[00:14:58] [SPEAKER_00]: absolute sense?

[00:14:59] [SPEAKER_00]: Doesn't necessarily mean that you're encouraging it, but it makes sense.

[00:15:02] [SPEAKER_00]: I guess that's where I go with it.

[00:15:04] [SPEAKER_00]: And actually, these two ideas can 100% coexist.

[00:15:07] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not, pushing back wasn't the right word.

[00:15:09] [SPEAKER_00]: It's just a big conversation about a lot of complicated things, which I know can be simplified,

[00:15:14] [SPEAKER_00]: but I'm not a poet.

[00:15:15] [SPEAKER_02]: May I say, I love what you said.

[00:15:18] [SPEAKER_02]: I love your pushback.

[00:15:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Because I'm like, wow, you know what?

[00:15:22] [SPEAKER_02]: That's a great challenging statement.

[00:15:23] [SPEAKER_02]: So the one thing I would say is, in what I'm talking about, the hope that I'm referring

[00:15:29] [SPEAKER_02]: to comes as a result of the experience of connection.

[00:15:34] [SPEAKER_04]: Right.

[00:15:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.

[00:15:35] [SPEAKER_02]: So seeing, heard, value.

[00:15:36] [SPEAKER_02]: But see, I think your point is also incredibly valid because you think, all right, well,

[00:15:40] [SPEAKER_02]: dude, but wait.

[00:15:41] [SPEAKER_02]: That then makes hope dependent on something else.

[00:15:44] [SPEAKER_02]: And you're talking about hope living by itself.

[00:15:48] [SPEAKER_02]: And you're right.

[00:15:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Because I hoped to die.

[00:15:51] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I'm 61 years old.

[00:15:53] [SPEAKER_02]: I've thought about killing myself since I was probably 12.

[00:15:57] [SPEAKER_02]: How many times?

[00:15:58] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.

[00:15:59] [SPEAKER_00]: Where'd you grow up?

[00:16:00] [SPEAKER_02]: I actually grew up just south of you, brother.

[00:16:02] [SPEAKER_00]: I grew up in Maryland.

[00:16:03] [SPEAKER_00]: Early 70s.

[00:16:05] [SPEAKER_00]: You were 12.

[00:16:05] [SPEAKER_00]: You're a kid with hair.

[00:16:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Yep.

[00:16:14] [SPEAKER_00]: I would say, even though we now talk about mental health probably more openly, certainly

[00:16:20] [SPEAKER_00]: more often, I don't think we talk about suicide more often.

[00:16:24] [SPEAKER_00]: We may.

[00:16:25] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.

[00:16:26] [SPEAKER_00]: So for you, probably had big old hair, like the whole 70s vibe.

[00:16:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, God.

[00:16:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, Ben, it had to be big hair.

[00:16:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Like my brother, Tom, used to say he had gala height.

[00:16:36] [SPEAKER_02]: Like, so I would just have it be big.

[00:16:38] [SPEAKER_02]: Big hair.

[00:16:39] [SPEAKER_02]: As much of a bouffant as I could possibly have.

[00:16:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Big hair.

[00:16:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Big hair.

[00:16:43] [SPEAKER_00]: Probably wearing bell bottoms.

[00:16:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Who knows?

[00:16:46] [SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.

[00:16:47] [SPEAKER_00]: You're in middle school, junior high school.

[00:16:49] [SPEAKER_00]: What's going on that you want to kill yourself?

[00:16:51] [SPEAKER_00]: Or thinking about it.

[00:16:52] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know where you are on the spectrum of that.

[00:16:54] [SPEAKER_02]: My birth father, unfortunately, was a smoker and died when he was just 41 years old.

[00:17:00] [SPEAKER_02]: I was just seven.

[00:17:01] [SPEAKER_02]: And I have three extraordinary human beings who I'm just, happened to meet my brothers,

[00:17:06] [SPEAKER_02]: who are six, nine, and 11 years older than I.

[00:17:09] [SPEAKER_02]: So I'm the baby.

[00:17:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Also, my father suffered from was crippling, institutionalizing depression that he had as

[00:17:19] [SPEAKER_02]: well.

[00:17:20] [SPEAKER_02]: So I mentioned that to answer your question.

[00:17:22] [SPEAKER_02]: So here comes 12.

[00:17:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Genetics were there for depression.

[00:17:25] [SPEAKER_02]: And then I have a trauma of losing my father.

[00:17:29] [SPEAKER_02]: But then what started thoughts of killing myself was the fact that I was viciously raped on multiple

[00:17:38] [SPEAKER_02]: occasions at the hand of a monster.

[00:17:41] [SPEAKER_02]: I refused to call him a human being who was a Boy Scout leader.

[00:17:46] [SPEAKER_02]: It's important to note.

[00:17:47] [SPEAKER_02]: And I remember this so clearly.

[00:17:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Every time he did this, he said, you know, don't forget, these are initiations and all the boys go

[00:17:56] [SPEAKER_02]: through it, but we don't talk about it.

[00:17:58] [SPEAKER_02]: And so I didn't.

[00:17:59] [SPEAKER_00]: Would you have talked about it?

[00:18:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Because that would still be a really hard thing to talk about it to anybody.

[00:18:04] [SPEAKER_02]: You know what?

[00:18:05] [SPEAKER_02]: I've never been asked that question.

[00:18:07] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.

[00:18:08] [SPEAKER_00]: You know what's interesting?

[00:18:09] [SPEAKER_00]: What's your pug's name?

[00:18:10] [SPEAKER_00]: Lexi.

[00:18:11] [SPEAKER_00]: When does Lexi come onto your lap when you're talking about something really hard?

[00:18:15] [SPEAKER_02]: No, she's daddy's girl.

[00:18:16] [SPEAKER_02]: My beloved tells me that when I'm gone, you know, like the store or working out or anything,

[00:18:21] [SPEAKER_02]: she said, Lexi just waits for me.

[00:18:24] [SPEAKER_00]: So when you're 12, this is an interesting age because, you know, if you were 25 and this

[00:18:29] [SPEAKER_00]: happens, you might want to kill the guy.

[00:18:30] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, you probably would think about it.

[00:18:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Some people would.

[00:18:33] [SPEAKER_00]: You might talk about it more often.

[00:18:35] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.

[00:18:35] [SPEAKER_00]: But at 12 is such an interesting age of transition and you're in this, you know, the group dynamic

[00:18:41] [SPEAKER_00]: and maybe you're starting to like girls or boys or whatever your thing is.

[00:18:45] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, all of that's swirling around and your body's probably fucking weird because

[00:18:49] [SPEAKER_00]: you're 12.

[00:18:50] [SPEAKER_00]: And then this happens.

[00:18:51] [SPEAKER_00]: So it's like, if you can find kind of the words, this happens repeatedly, it sounds like.

[00:18:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Yep.

[00:18:57] [SPEAKER_00]: The suicidal thoughts, that kicks in how or when.

[00:19:01] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know exactly when.

[00:19:04] [SPEAKER_02]: The reason I say 12 is because, because one, that's when this happened.

[00:19:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Here was the trauma.

[00:19:10] [SPEAKER_02]: And I talk about trauma.

[00:19:12] [SPEAKER_02]: No wonder this fucks people up.

[00:19:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Excuse me.

[00:19:15] [SPEAKER_02]: I think that they must have started then.

[00:19:18] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, I have, I have memories of always feeling less than insignificant, ugly, stupid,

[00:19:27] [SPEAKER_02]: all of those, those aspects.

[00:19:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:19:29] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, that's a lot of stuff to be, I mean, obviously, right?

[00:19:32] [SPEAKER_00]: You've got the DNA.

[00:19:33] [SPEAKER_00]: You've got a loss, profound loss in your life.

[00:19:37] [SPEAKER_00]: And then you're repeatedly assaulted.

[00:19:39] [SPEAKER_02]: Just add one more part in is then, is then my mom remarried and to my stepdad, my bonus

[00:19:44] [SPEAKER_02]: dad.

[00:19:45] [SPEAKER_02]: And so we have, so there are four children in, in our family, family of origin.

[00:19:51] [SPEAKER_02]: My stepfather had nine children.

[00:19:53] [SPEAKER_02]: So they were Catholic.

[00:19:54] [SPEAKER_02]: We were Episcopal.

[00:19:56] [SPEAKER_02]: So kind of Catholic.

[00:19:56] [SPEAKER_02]: I was like, what?

[00:19:57] [SPEAKER_02]: There are 13 children in the family.

[00:20:00] [SPEAKER_00]: 13 children, 90 fucking animals.

[00:20:03] [SPEAKER_00]: You just like a lot of thing.

[00:20:04] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, I do.

[00:20:05] [SPEAKER_02]: Bless my heart.

[00:20:06] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, all this change and terrible things that are happening.

[00:20:11] [SPEAKER_02]: And I look at myself now at 61, I try to have grace for my young self, you know?

[00:20:18] [SPEAKER_02]: And I've spent hundreds upon hundreds upon hundreds of hours in therapy and have been

[00:20:22] [SPEAKER_02]: blessed with some extraordinary human beings.

[00:20:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Wow, cool.

[00:20:27] [SPEAKER_02]: As my therapist.

[00:20:28] [SPEAKER_02]: And I've had, I can't remember how, I don't know how many, but they've all been amazing.

[00:20:32] [SPEAKER_00]: When does it stop, this guy, this monster?

[00:20:35] [SPEAKER_00]: When is he no longer in the picture?

[00:20:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it just kept going.

[00:20:38] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't think it would have stopped had I not told my parents like, hey, I don't want

[00:20:43] [SPEAKER_02]: to be part of this anymore.

[00:20:44] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm imagining some of this stuff is in your book.

[00:20:46] [SPEAKER_02]: I talk very openly about the rape on repeat occasions.

[00:20:50] [SPEAKER_02]: I want to, one, to let people who have had this similar experience feel like they're heard.

[00:20:55] [SPEAKER_02]: And then to talk about trauma as you talked about the fuel on the fire.

[00:21:01] [SPEAKER_02]: Does everybody who's depressed think about killing themselves?

[00:21:04] [SPEAKER_02]: Like, no, I don't think so.

[00:21:05] [SPEAKER_02]: But the people who are depressed and then have this aspect of trauma on top, I think that probably

[00:21:11] [SPEAKER_02]: increases the likelihood.

[00:21:13] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm sure.

[00:21:13] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm sure.

[00:21:14] [SPEAKER_02]: If you look at what the definition of trauma is, it's extraordinary.

[00:21:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Severe and lasting emotional shock and pain caused by an extremely upsetting experience.

[00:21:24] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[00:21:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Here's what trauma does, brother.

[00:21:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Check this out.

[00:21:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Trauma fractures comprehension like a pebble shatters a windshield.

[00:21:32] [SPEAKER_02]: The wound at the site of impact spreads across the field of vision, obscuring reality and

[00:21:39] [SPEAKER_02]: challenging belief.

[00:21:40] [SPEAKER_02]: That's exactly right.

[00:21:42] [SPEAKER_02]: That is so magnificent.

[00:21:46] [SPEAKER_00]: It's nice to hear the words from somebody else who like almost perfectly reflect what you've

[00:21:53] [SPEAKER_00]: been going through.

[00:21:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Exactly.

[00:21:55] [SPEAKER_02]: And it's so perfect because you just think like a pebble shatters a windshield.

[00:22:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Like that act shattered my soul.

[00:22:03] [SPEAKER_02]: It challenged my belief.

[00:22:05] [SPEAKER_02]: It obscured reality.

[00:22:06] [SPEAKER_02]: It did all those things that Jane Levy says in her quotation.

[00:22:10] [SPEAKER_02]: And you're right.

[00:22:11] [SPEAKER_02]: It goes back to that aspect, you know, connection, seen, heard, valued.

[00:22:15] [SPEAKER_03]: When you can have somebody that could just articulate how you're experienced, you're just like,

[00:22:20] [SPEAKER_00]: oh man, 12 year old David does whatever the hell he can to just get through the day.

[00:22:24] [SPEAKER_00]: When does these thoughts of killing yourself turn into something a little closer to actually

[00:22:30] [SPEAKER_00]: trying or getting in that direction?

[00:22:33] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, does that go on for years until that comes?

[00:22:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think it does.

[00:22:37] [SPEAKER_02]: And in part, my experience, what I understand, and I think there's a kind of a built-in universal

[00:22:43] [SPEAKER_02]: safety mechanism to this, is common in that I forgot about the rape until I was in my mid-20s.

[00:22:51] [SPEAKER_02]: In fact, I can tell you almost exactly where I was physically.

[00:22:56] [SPEAKER_02]: I was a sophomore in college and all of a sudden I had this thought.

[00:23:02] [SPEAKER_02]: And what it was, I didn't know at the time, was a memory.

[00:23:05] [SPEAKER_02]: But because the monster was so perverse in what he did to me, so this memory comes up.

[00:23:11] [SPEAKER_02]: And I remember thinking, because I don't watch scary movies and stuff like that.

[00:23:16] [SPEAKER_02]: So I'm like, what is this?

[00:23:18] [SPEAKER_02]: Like, this makes no sense.

[00:23:19] [SPEAKER_03]: Like, why on earth would I ever have a thought like that?

[00:23:23] [SPEAKER_02]: Whatever period of time I ruminated on it, and then there came a time, a tipping point,

[00:23:29] [SPEAKER_02]: literally, in which I'm like, oh dear God, this happened to me.

[00:23:34] [SPEAKER_02]: So this is like, I'm in my 20s, early 20s.

[00:23:38] [SPEAKER_02]: And then I live with this for really the next 40 years.

[00:23:41] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't attempt to kill myself, not that I think about it, until I'm 48 years old.

[00:23:46] [SPEAKER_02]: So I'm living with this for all that time.

[00:23:50] [SPEAKER_00]: When we talk about struggle, I think I'm not entirely accurate with what I'm about to say,

[00:23:54] [SPEAKER_00]: but I think in general culture, we give a lot of credit.

[00:23:58] [SPEAKER_00]: And perhaps that's fair to people who struggle to achieve a particular goal,

[00:24:03] [SPEAKER_00]: like finishing a marathon or climbing Mount Kilimanjaro or becoming the CEO.

[00:24:08] [SPEAKER_00]: And I don't hear as often the real struggle, like the real decades of thinking about killing yourself,

[00:24:15] [SPEAKER_00]: but not.

[00:24:16] [SPEAKER_00]: That's a unique kind of fucking struggle.

[00:24:18] [SPEAKER_02]: So it's been 13 years since I was going to kill myself.

[00:24:21] [SPEAKER_02]: I was going to kill myself on August 31st, 2011, and was stopped and began this journey,

[00:24:26] [SPEAKER_02]: as I like to say, and this is kind of clever.

[00:24:27] [SPEAKER_02]: I kind of like it.

[00:24:28] [SPEAKER_02]: My journey from mental hellness to mental wellness.

[00:24:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Now the listeners know something that you might not.

[00:24:35] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if you've listened to an episode.

[00:24:37] [SPEAKER_00]: Here's the deal.

[00:24:38] [SPEAKER_00]: What you don't know about me is I have a gift for memoir titles.

[00:24:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, there we go.

[00:24:43] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't help people write them.

[00:24:45] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't help people.

[00:24:45] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't have a memoir myself.

[00:24:47] [SPEAKER_00]: But I think usually as I talk to people one or two times during the conversation,

[00:24:53] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, you know, I think that would be a great memoir title.

[00:24:56] [SPEAKER_00]: In your case, I cannot do that because you already came up with it.

[00:25:01] [SPEAKER_00]: You're feeling my thunder, David.

[00:25:03] [SPEAKER_02]: So sorry, brother.

[00:25:04] [SPEAKER_02]: In these 13 years, there's still been, you know, this struggle and up and down.

[00:25:09] [SPEAKER_02]: And I still think about killing myself.

[00:25:11] [SPEAKER_02]: So at the end of last year, I fell into like depression was there.

[00:25:16] [SPEAKER_02]: It went into like a depth that I had never experienced.

[00:25:20] [SPEAKER_02]: It's important to note is I am incredibly good about routine.

[00:25:25] [SPEAKER_02]: So in other words, what I talk about self-care of body, mind, and spirit.

[00:25:29] [SPEAKER_02]: So diet, sleep, exercise.

[00:25:32] [SPEAKER_02]: I take four meds.

[00:25:33] [SPEAKER_02]: I go to counseling, you know, everything.

[00:25:36] [SPEAKER_02]: So I'm like, what the hell happened?

[00:25:38] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:25:39] [SPEAKER_02]: There was really like, okay, well then like, I mean, it was, and evidently it was so bad.

[00:25:43] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't have a memory of it.

[00:25:44] [SPEAKER_02]: And that's how bad it was.

[00:25:45] [SPEAKER_02]: I said to my beloved every day, I would wake up.

[00:25:49] [SPEAKER_02]: And what I said to her was, please let me die.

[00:25:52] [SPEAKER_00]: And this was last year.

[00:25:54] [SPEAKER_02]: This is last year.

[00:25:55] [SPEAKER_02]: This is very, very relevant.

[00:25:57] [SPEAKER_02]: No, no.

[00:25:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Very, very recent.

[00:25:58] [SPEAKER_02]: We're like, what to do?

[00:26:00] [SPEAKER_02]: And because I had these amazing people in my life, evidently, again, I just don't, I don't have a memory of it.

[00:26:07] [SPEAKER_02]: We counseled with some folks that we know and ultimately were directed to what's known as ECT.

[00:26:16] [SPEAKER_02]: And ECT is electroconvulsive therapy.

[00:26:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Shock.

[00:26:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yeah.

[00:26:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Pretty much everybody who listens to this podcast knows about ECT.

[00:26:24] [SPEAKER_00]: It comes up.

[00:26:24] [SPEAKER_02]: So 30 sessions later, I am a changed human being.

[00:26:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Memory loss?

[00:26:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Just a ton.

[00:26:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Memory has definitely been improving.

[00:26:34] [SPEAKER_02]: Because now, so in the acute phase, which was like in January, I was going three times a week.

[00:26:40] [SPEAKER_02]: So we went from three times a week to twice a week to once a week.

[00:26:44] [SPEAKER_02]: May, there was only two sessions.

[00:26:46] [SPEAKER_02]: I am literally had my 31st session tomorrow at noon.

[00:26:50] [SPEAKER_02]: And that's, it's been three weeks since my last session.

[00:26:53] [SPEAKER_02]: The next one will be three weeks, July 5th.

[00:26:57] [SPEAKER_02]: And then we're going to do six months of once a month.

[00:26:59] [SPEAKER_02]: And I'll tell you, it has changed my life.

[00:27:02] [SPEAKER_02]: It has taken away thoughts of killing myself.

[00:27:05] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[00:27:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Like it doesn't exist anymore.

[00:27:08] [SPEAKER_00]: Magical in a way.

[00:27:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Really?

[00:27:09] [SPEAKER_02]: It's unreal.

[00:27:10] [SPEAKER_02]: And the other thing is, it really has taken depression.

[00:27:14] [SPEAKER_02]: It took it out.

[00:27:15] [SPEAKER_02]: This was probably two weeks ago.

[00:27:16] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm having kind of a shitty day.

[00:27:18] [SPEAKER_02]: These things are kind of fucked up.

[00:27:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Now in the past, what would that have been automatic, brother, is I'm going down depression

[00:27:24] [SPEAKER_02]: lane.

[00:27:24] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm going straight down there.

[00:27:26] [SPEAKER_03]: But I didn't.

[00:27:26] [SPEAKER_03]: And I was so surprised.

[00:27:28] [SPEAKER_03]: And I'm like, okay, but what is this feeling?

[00:27:30] [SPEAKER_03]: Like, I'm not feeling happy and everything else, you know, but I'm not, I'm not like thinking

[00:27:34] [SPEAKER_03]: about killing myself.

[00:27:35] [SPEAKER_03]: And I'm like, oh my God, you know what it is?

[00:27:38] [SPEAKER_03]: It's disappointment.

[00:27:39] [SPEAKER_03]: Like I'm feeling disappointed.

[00:27:41] [SPEAKER_03]: Like it's a fucked up day.

[00:27:43] [SPEAKER_03]: That's totally different than depression.

[00:27:45] [SPEAKER_03]: That's what ECT did.

[00:27:47] [SPEAKER_00]: You were doing everything right.

[00:27:49] [SPEAKER_00]: And yet you still wanted to end your life.

[00:27:52] [SPEAKER_00]: You woke up to your partner and said, please let me die.

[00:27:55] [SPEAKER_00]: Were you asking her to kill you?

[00:27:57] [SPEAKER_02]: No, it would be more or less.

[00:27:59] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm about two hours from San Francisco.

[00:28:02] [SPEAKER_02]: And of course we know the Golden Gate Bridge.

[00:28:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:28:04] [SPEAKER_02]: I was going to what's known as the Forest Hill Bridge, which is 500 feet further off the

[00:28:09] [SPEAKER_02]: ground.

[00:28:10] [SPEAKER_02]: I was going to jump off the 730 foot tall bridge.

[00:28:14] [SPEAKER_00]: Were you driving there that day?

[00:28:17] [SPEAKER_02]: I was there on August 31st, 2011.

[00:28:19] [SPEAKER_02]: That's where I went.

[00:28:21] [SPEAKER_00]: We haven't talked about that yet.

[00:28:23] [SPEAKER_02]: End of last year, beginning of this year in this time that was so severe.

[00:28:26] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, that's always been my method.

[00:28:29] [SPEAKER_02]: It's always, there's never been any other method.

[00:28:31] [SPEAKER_02]: It was always like, I'm just, I'm going here.

[00:28:33] [SPEAKER_00]: Even as a kid?

[00:28:34] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, no, no, no, no, not because I was living in Maryland.

[00:28:38] [SPEAKER_00]: How do people kill themselves in Maryland?

[00:28:40] [SPEAKER_02]: I think that would have been weapon.

[00:28:42] [SPEAKER_00]: You know how to use a gun?

[00:28:43] [SPEAKER_02]: I grew up.

[00:28:44] [SPEAKER_02]: My best friend's dad took, he and I hunting.

[00:28:48] [SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, so I knew what to do.

[00:28:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Where we live, the Forest Hill Bridge has an infamous reputation like the Golden Gate Bridge

[00:28:55] [SPEAKER_02]: does.

[00:28:56] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:28:56] [SPEAKER_00]: The Golden Gate Bridge, you're almost definitely going to die.

[00:28:59] [SPEAKER_00]: And this bridge, maybe even more likely.

[00:29:02] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, you're certainly, you're not surviving 700.

[00:29:05] [SPEAKER_02]: You're not.

[00:29:05] [SPEAKER_02]: That ain't happening.

[00:29:06] [SPEAKER_00]: From 12 to 48.

[00:29:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Tell me about that in a minute or two.

[00:29:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Good luck.

[00:29:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, no, just, I think if you looked at me and that was the thing that I talk about

[00:29:17] [SPEAKER_02]: is, you know, when I ultimately was taken off the bridge to an emergency room and into a

[00:29:22] [SPEAKER_02]: psychiatric facility for 15 days.

[00:29:24] [SPEAKER_02]: And when people found out where I was and why, it couldn't, it made no sense because

[00:29:28] [SPEAKER_02]: they saw me as with Deanna running this sanctuary.

[00:29:31] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, growing up, I was, you know, I had achieved, I wouldn't say a high achiever, but

[00:29:35] [SPEAKER_02]: certainly I was accomplished.

[00:29:36] [SPEAKER_02]: I was successful.

[00:29:37] [SPEAKER_02]: I was a good citizen.

[00:29:39] [SPEAKER_02]: I was healthy from just from, you know, the kind of standard way.

[00:29:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.

[00:29:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Everything from the outside and, and my, and, and there were very positive life experiences

[00:29:48] [SPEAKER_02]: along the way.

[00:29:50] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, it wasn't, you know, 12 to 48 is what?

[00:29:53] [SPEAKER_02]: 36 years.

[00:29:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Is that right?

[00:29:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Wasn't, you know, 36 years of, of absolute, you know, like the days that I had at the end

[00:30:00] [SPEAKER_02]: of last year that had me going to ECT.

[00:30:03] [SPEAKER_02]: It wasn't like 36 years of that, you know, and I, I enjoyed people.

[00:30:06] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm motivated to, to be of service to other people as a, it's my way of demonstrating thanks

[00:30:13] [SPEAKER_02]: for what people have done to me.

[00:30:14] [SPEAKER_02]: So I think, and underneath all that incredible self-hatred.

[00:30:19] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:30:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Just perfect.

[00:30:21] [SPEAKER_00]: They can coexist for a little while.

[00:30:26] [SPEAKER_00]: People figure it out and go to their grave and die naturally.

[00:30:29] [SPEAKER_00]: And those two, and perhaps other things coexist all together.

[00:30:32] [SPEAKER_00]: But for a lot of people, there's a breaking point.

[00:30:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Chef David Chang and his fight with bipolar two says, when you're depressed, you're convinced

[00:30:42] [SPEAKER_02]: that everything you think is true.

[00:30:44] [SPEAKER_00]: There's a day when you are in August of 2011.

[00:30:48] [SPEAKER_00]: This was a year after you were, your sanctuary had something written about it in the USA Today.

[00:30:55] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm listening.

[00:30:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:30:56] [SPEAKER_00]: And not something you're talking about a half page.

[00:31:00] [SPEAKER_00]: 2010.

[00:31:00] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm kind of using these years as anchors.

[00:31:03] [SPEAKER_00]: There's, there's really no connection necessarily to that and what happens in 2011.

[00:31:07] [SPEAKER_00]: It's just my own brain and time connections.

[00:31:10] [SPEAKER_02]: No, no, no.

[00:31:10] [SPEAKER_02]: I get it.

[00:31:11] [SPEAKER_00]: August 31st, 2011.

[00:31:12] [SPEAKER_00]: You are living in Sacramento.

[00:31:14] [SPEAKER_02]: The sanctuary was about 30 minutes outside of Sacramento, but just as a reference point

[00:31:18] [SPEAKER_02]: for people in Northern California.

[00:31:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:31:20] [SPEAKER_00]: But on that day, in some ways things culminate or add up enough so that you go from a guy

[00:31:26] [SPEAKER_00]: who's like, you just shared about how you live in the world.

[00:31:29] [SPEAKER_00]: And then, you know, there's also the internal angst, the internal challenges, but that day

[00:31:33] [SPEAKER_00]: you go to a bridge.

[00:31:34] [SPEAKER_00]: August 31st, 2011.

[00:31:36] [SPEAKER_00]: I always do this, David.

[00:31:37] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm a weird fucking dude.

[00:31:39] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, where was I August 31st, 2011?

[00:31:40] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:31:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Cause I just, cause I know what's happening every day.

[00:31:44] [SPEAKER_00]: There are, I don't know how many number of people right now standing on a bridge.

[00:31:49] [SPEAKER_00]: There are people with a gun that is loaded to their temple.

[00:31:52] [SPEAKER_00]: There are people that have two bottles of whatever medication and a bottle of Jack Daniels

[00:31:58] [SPEAKER_00]: and they are taking them.

[00:31:59] [SPEAKER_00]: And that is not to be morose or dark.

[00:32:02] [SPEAKER_00]: That is truth.

[00:32:03] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, there's also a lot of other things that are going on in the world.

[00:32:06] [SPEAKER_00]: Like there are people playing pickleball.

[00:32:07] [SPEAKER_00]: There's a lot of people in the world.

[00:32:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, there's also the less talked about things.

[00:32:13] [SPEAKER_00]: Like there's people who are in their beds and they're not getting up today.

[00:32:16] [SPEAKER_00]: There's people that want more than anything in the world to, I don't know, even just go

[00:32:21] [SPEAKER_00]: for a walk and it's not happening.

[00:32:24] [SPEAKER_00]: Like you felt in, I imagine, I don't know exactly what your days were like.

[00:32:27] [SPEAKER_00]: Cause you sound like you said you were somewhat high functioning.

[00:32:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:32:31] [SPEAKER_00]: You have a partner, you have dogs, you have a sanctuary, you're taking care of yourself.

[00:32:35] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, you know, you're not necessarily the guy who is in bed all day.

[00:32:39] [SPEAKER_02]: No, I absolutely not.

[00:32:41] [SPEAKER_00]: What happens on that day as best you can recall?

[00:32:44] [SPEAKER_02]: No, I can recall exactly.

[00:32:45] [SPEAKER_02]: So woke up, walked through the house.

[00:32:47] [SPEAKER_02]: We lived on a two and a perfectly rectangular, two and a half acre piece property.

[00:32:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Go outside, walk around a little bit and then come inside, type out a note that was,

[00:32:57] [SPEAKER_02]: it's time for me to go.

[00:32:58] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm sorry.

[00:32:59] [SPEAKER_02]: And then get in my 1996 Dodge Dakota pickup truck.

[00:33:05] [SPEAKER_02]: And you know, it was amazing.

[00:33:06] [SPEAKER_02]: It was fire engine red.

[00:33:08] [SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, from a metaphor, you and me metaphor standpoint, analogy, whatever, like

[00:33:12] [SPEAKER_02]: even my truck was like blaring like emergency.

[00:33:16] [SPEAKER_02]: So make my way to, it's only like a 20 minute drive to the bridge.

[00:33:20] [SPEAKER_00]: What are you thinking?

[00:33:21] [SPEAKER_02]: You know what the word is?

[00:33:22] [SPEAKER_02]: The word is relief.

[00:33:23] [SPEAKER_02]: I would imagine this is similar.

[00:33:25] [SPEAKER_02]: For somebody like me in the midst of that pain and, and at the end of last year was,

[00:33:31] [SPEAKER_02]: was the most recent occurrence of this to that severity.

[00:33:34] [SPEAKER_02]: You feel like it's never going to end that.

[00:33:36] [SPEAKER_02]: That's the pro that's part of the problem that drives to the pills and the Jack Daniel is like,

[00:33:41] [SPEAKER_02]: this is never going to end.

[00:33:43] [SPEAKER_02]: So like, okay, here's the finality.

[00:33:46] [SPEAKER_02]: And when you're depressed, you're convinced that everything you think is true.

[00:33:49] [SPEAKER_02]: So I'm, I'm thinking Deanna is going to be fine.

[00:33:52] [SPEAKER_02]: That's my, my former wife.

[00:33:53] [SPEAKER_02]: He's going to be fine.

[00:33:54] [SPEAKER_02]: She'll be okay.

[00:33:55] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, people will feel sorry for her and then they'll give her money to run the

[00:33:59] [SPEAKER_03]: sanctuary.

[00:33:59] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I'm not, I guess you could say I'm justifying.

[00:34:01] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, it's just how you thought.

[00:34:03] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:34:03] [SPEAKER_02]: So park the vehicle, turn off the motor.

[00:34:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Put, I remember, I remember putting my hands on the 10 and two position of the steering wheel,

[00:34:10] [SPEAKER_02]: you know, kind of like in that last, like, and then you're like, note, center of the dash,

[00:34:15] [SPEAKER_02]: keys, center of the note, exit, cross the road.

[00:34:18] [SPEAKER_02]: And the bridge is basically a quarter mile long.

[00:34:21] [SPEAKER_02]: So hit the midpoint.

[00:34:23] [SPEAKER_02]: And then the barrier, it's like, it's like a fence just hits me right across the top of my chest.

[00:34:28] [SPEAKER_02]: And so I'm bent over arms grasping, you know, as far as I can reach out to both sides, grasping

[00:34:34] [SPEAKER_02]: the rail.

[00:34:34] [SPEAKER_02]: And now I'm looking down at the North Fork in the American river, somebody, because the bridge has

[00:34:40] [SPEAKER_02]: that reputation called 911 and sheriff's deputy approached me.

[00:34:44] [SPEAKER_02]: And I don't remember the initial aspects of our interaction, but what he did was tell people he

[00:34:52] [SPEAKER_02]: didn't make contact with me.

[00:34:53] [SPEAKER_02]: He made connection.

[00:34:54] [SPEAKER_00]: That's a good sheriff.

[00:34:55] [SPEAKER_02]: And the first question that I remember him asking me, I'm sure there was others, was,

[00:35:00] [SPEAKER_02]: David, would you please tell me what does it feel like to be depressed?

[00:35:06] [SPEAKER_02]: So here's what Mr. Man is asking me the question that you would think would be the last question

[00:35:11] [SPEAKER_02]: that you would want to ask, asks me the most important question in that moment.

[00:35:16] [SPEAKER_00]: Totally.

[00:35:16] [SPEAKER_00]: A lot of what I hear about how to engage with such and such, I just think is often off.

[00:35:20] [SPEAKER_00]: You're right.

[00:35:21] [SPEAKER_00]: Ask them.

[00:35:22] [SPEAKER_00]: How does it feel?

[00:35:23] [SPEAKER_00]: What is that like?

[00:35:24] [SPEAKER_02]: To not have your suffering recognized is an almost unspeakable form of violence.

[00:35:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:35:30] [SPEAKER_03]: So here the guy is, he's allowing me to have my suffering recognized because he's asking me how I feel.

[00:35:36] [SPEAKER_02]: This is a sheriff.

[00:35:37] [SPEAKER_02]: And so we have this interaction.

[00:35:39] [SPEAKER_02]: We talk.

[00:35:39] [SPEAKER_02]: And then here was the other beautiful thing.

[00:35:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Man to man.

[00:35:42] [SPEAKER_02]: What I remember him saying to me is, David, thank you for telling me how you feel.

[00:35:48] [SPEAKER_00]: Thanking somebody for sure.

[00:35:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Then ultimately what had me, so here we're having this dialogue.

[00:35:53] [SPEAKER_02]: And then ultimately it was, would you please come with me?

[00:35:56] [SPEAKER_02]: And I did.

[00:35:57] [SPEAKER_02]: And I went in his car and then went to the emergency room and then went to the psych ward where I spent 15 days.

[00:36:03] [SPEAKER_02]: I tell you what, my 15 days in the psych ward were fucking awesome.

[00:36:06] [SPEAKER_00]: Wow.

[00:36:07] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't hear that very often.

[00:36:08] [SPEAKER_02]: I remember my roommate was Daniel.

[00:36:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Daniel and I came from two entirely different socioeconomic backgrounds.

[00:36:15] [SPEAKER_02]: In that space, we're in the same family.

[00:36:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh yeah.

[00:36:18] [SPEAKER_02]: And I remember, I just remember, and my family came to visit.

[00:36:24] [SPEAKER_02]: You know how often they came to visit?

[00:36:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Every day.

[00:36:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Every day.

[00:36:26] [SPEAKER_02]: There was a pay phone in the hallway of the psych ward.

[00:36:31] [SPEAKER_02]: So if you wanted to talk to a patient, you would call this number.

[00:36:34] [SPEAKER_02]: And if it wasn't for you, if you walked by and picked up the phone and it wasn't for you, you would just call out to whoever it was.

[00:36:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Brother, I got so many phone calls.

[00:36:42] [SPEAKER_02]: By the third day, the other patients literally refused to answer the phone.

[00:36:46] [SPEAKER_02]: Because the word went out like, oh my God, David's in trouble.

[00:36:49] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, and these people, and they would just call and just say, man, I'm so sorry that you're suffering.

[00:36:54] [SPEAKER_03]: I love you.

[00:36:56] [SPEAKER_03]: What can I do for you?

[00:36:57] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh my God.

[00:36:58] [SPEAKER_03]: It's incredible.

[00:36:59] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, and then to fast forward 13 years, you know, I just delved into this horrific experience and then have this thing called ECT.

[00:37:07] [SPEAKER_02]: And you get to know the doctors and the staff in six months.

[00:37:10] [SPEAKER_02]: These people, they are incredible.

[00:37:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Like I will go tomorrow and I will be treated not like a patient.

[00:37:17] [SPEAKER_02]: I will be treated like an incredibly important, like a VIP.

[00:37:21] [SPEAKER_02]: And then my three brothers, incredibly the eldest right after our father died, really at that moment, he became my dad.

[00:37:29] [SPEAKER_02]: He is still like that.

[00:37:31] [SPEAKER_02]: 42 years in the army, ultimately a two-star general.

[00:37:35] [SPEAKER_02]: My brother.

[00:37:36] [SPEAKER_02]: So in these last six months, I talked to him every single day.

[00:37:40] [SPEAKER_03]: And, you know, between that and my beloved now and my sweetheart, you know, out of the blue, my former wife will text me and tells me she loves me.

[00:37:49] [SPEAKER_03]: And I'm a blessed dude.

[00:37:50] [SPEAKER_00]: How do you get from coming out of the hospital in early September 2011?

[00:37:57] [SPEAKER_00]: I know you had a really difficult period not long ago as well, pre-ECT.

[00:38:02] [SPEAKER_00]: How do you get through life?

[00:38:04] [SPEAKER_02]: Therapy.

[00:38:05] [SPEAKER_02]: A lot of it.

[00:38:05] [SPEAKER_02]: And the other part, talking about it.

[00:38:08] [SPEAKER_00]: It connects back to something that you had said earlier when you were talking about the ECT where you were doing so many things for your self-care, well-being.

[00:38:17] [SPEAKER_00]: And yet you woke up one day, not that long ago, and said, please let me die.

[00:38:22] [SPEAKER_00]: I think about disconnection, which probably is a word that would resonate with you because I know it's about connection.

[00:38:29] [SPEAKER_00]: And how the messaging often, the stories we hear, which of course I don't hear almost the majority of them because I can only be at one place at one time, right?

[00:38:37] [SPEAKER_00]: So I don't really know what's happening in the world, but I get a sense of it from people I talk to.

[00:38:42] [SPEAKER_00]: If you are somebody who is wanting people to just feel better and live and thrive and, you know, the messaging, right?

[00:38:50] [SPEAKER_00]: And I've got no problem with it.

[00:38:51] [SPEAKER_00]: But when someone who's doing all they can do, and by the way, not a judgment if you're not doing that.

[00:38:57] [SPEAKER_00]: I imagine you're doing what you can do.

[00:38:59] [SPEAKER_00]: You're doing all the things and still waking up saying, let me die.

[00:39:04] [SPEAKER_00]: And if not for ECT, are we even having this conversation?

[00:39:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Are you around?

[00:39:08] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.

[00:39:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Juan, I don't know.

[00:39:10] [SPEAKER_02]: It was just so bad.

[00:39:12] [SPEAKER_02]: I think the danger would have been had ECT, if it wasn't an option or if it didn't work.

[00:39:19] [SPEAKER_02]: And the fact that I was already doing well-educated in terms of what to do and actually a really good practitioner of doing those things.

[00:39:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Like there's guys who will be on meds and they start feeling better and they stop taking their meds.

[00:39:32] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm like, dude, don't do that.

[00:39:34] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't do that.

[00:39:34] [SPEAKER_02]: I think that the danger would have been, brother, is I'd have become truly hopeless.

[00:39:39] [SPEAKER_02]: But ECT really saved my life.

[00:39:42] [SPEAKER_02]: That and my fiance, my beloved, who was just as she's always been, but she just took her love to a whole nother level in the last six months.

[00:39:53] [SPEAKER_02]: And then she will have to tell me certain things because there are certain things I don't remember.

[00:39:56] [SPEAKER_02]: And what people say is, it's okay that you don't remember that.

[00:39:59] [SPEAKER_02]: But like, you know, when I go to ECT tomorrow, you know, I'm jazzed.

[00:40:03] [SPEAKER_00]: Are you, I was going to say angry.

[00:40:05] [SPEAKER_00]: There might be a better word for what some people might think of was stolen from you.

[00:40:11] [SPEAKER_00]: Going back to 12 years old and that.

[00:40:14] [SPEAKER_00]: Just other things that had a monster not existed in my life or had I not had a DNA or bop, bop, bop, bop, bop.

[00:40:23] [SPEAKER_00]: My life would have just, I would have preferred that.

[00:40:25] [SPEAKER_00]: That's bullshit.

[00:40:26] [SPEAKER_00]: It's unfair.

[00:40:27] [SPEAKER_00]: Whatever.

[00:40:28] [SPEAKER_02]: You know what?

[00:40:28] [SPEAKER_02]: One, no.

[00:40:29] [SPEAKER_02]: No, I've never felt that way.

[00:40:31] [SPEAKER_02]: However, you know, it's, it's interesting.

[00:40:33] [SPEAKER_02]: The epiphanies that come to me, I think, as a result of talking about my history, I had the epiphany.

[00:40:40] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know what it was.

[00:40:41] [SPEAKER_02]: It was one of those really clear thoughts, you know, like I'm sure you've had when you were like, oh shit, this is true.

[00:40:47] [SPEAKER_02]: If I had not been raped, I don't think I would have been suicidal.

[00:40:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Had I not had, I mean, I think I could have processed the death of my father.

[00:40:55] [SPEAKER_02]: The other knows.

[00:40:56] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I will say that I hate the Boy Scouts.

[00:40:58] [SPEAKER_02]: But what's interesting, my beloved, my dad, my brother, my dad, he was an Eagle Scout.

[00:41:05] [SPEAKER_02]: So his experience of the organization in the larger context was totally distinct.

[00:41:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Wow.

[00:41:11] [SPEAKER_00]: You got lucky or you got very unlucky or both.

[00:41:13] [SPEAKER_02]: And he, of course, is incredibly empathetic.

[00:41:15] [SPEAKER_00]: I want to know if you still have the note.

[00:41:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I do.

[00:41:18] [SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.

[00:41:18] [SPEAKER_00]: So for you, it's interesting.

[00:41:20] [SPEAKER_00]: I usually ask people how many people know that you attempted.

[00:41:23] [SPEAKER_00]: It's not a small number for you.

[00:41:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Tens of thousands.

[00:41:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Not because I'm anything special, only because of what I do.

[00:41:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[00:41:29] [SPEAKER_00]: And I do want to talk about that more because you've mentioned it, but I want to hear more.

[00:41:32] [SPEAKER_00]: You also have mentioned, because I often ask, how many people do you have in your life to

[00:41:37] [SPEAKER_00]: talk about hard things, including suicide, in a way that doesn't make you feel worse?

[00:41:42] [SPEAKER_00]: And it sounds like you have more than a few.

[00:41:44] [SPEAKER_00]: I do.

[00:41:45] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm asking you today.

[00:41:47] [SPEAKER_00]: Do you wish that day turned out differently and there was no 911 call on the bridge?

[00:41:51] [SPEAKER_00]: Do you wish you had jumped and succeeded?

[00:41:54] [SPEAKER_02]: No.

[00:41:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I was going to say today.

[00:41:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Today, I say no.

[00:41:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Today, right.

[00:41:57] [SPEAKER_00]: And we're talking today.

[00:41:59] [SPEAKER_00]: Next week could be different.

[00:42:00] [SPEAKER_02]: End of last year would have been different.

[00:42:02] [SPEAKER_02]: For sure different.

[00:42:03] [SPEAKER_02]: Shit, March would have been different.

[00:42:06] [SPEAKER_00]: This shit is so...

[00:42:07] [SPEAKER_00]: What's the word?

[00:42:08] [SPEAKER_00]: I wish my vocabulary was a little more extensive.

[00:42:10] [SPEAKER_02]: The shit is fucked up is what it is.

[00:42:12] [SPEAKER_00]: It's like you're a little bit on a balancing beam, but you're not really a high-level gymnast.

[00:42:16] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, you're just...

[00:42:17] [SPEAKER_01]: It's just like a little bit.

[00:42:19] [SPEAKER_00]: I give you a pink and purple pill.

[00:42:22] [SPEAKER_00]: This pill you take and you go to sleep peacefully and you die peacefully.

[00:42:27] [SPEAKER_00]: If you want to add the fact that nobody knows it's a suicide, we can throw that in there too

[00:42:32] [SPEAKER_00]: to this magical pill.

[00:42:33] [SPEAKER_00]: Do you take the pill, save the pill, or throw the pill out as we talk today?

[00:42:38] [SPEAKER_02]: I throw the pill away.

[00:42:40] [SPEAKER_02]: That was a great question.

[00:42:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:42:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you.

[00:42:43] [SPEAKER_00]: Sure.

[00:42:44] [SPEAKER_00]: That's a New York question.

[00:42:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Are there any myths or misconceptions?

[00:42:48] [SPEAKER_00]: And it could be about anything, but a few words pop into my head around suicide, ideation,

[00:42:55] [SPEAKER_00]: that kind of trauma.

[00:42:56] [SPEAKER_02]: The one that I talk about is that suicide is spontaneous.

[00:43:00] [SPEAKER_02]: If it is, it is so unbelievably rare.

[00:43:04] [SPEAKER_02]: And the reason is you have to, I have to build up a certain amount of strength, really, to

[00:43:14] [SPEAKER_02]: overcome what is our inherent will to live.

[00:43:18] [SPEAKER_02]: We have a baseline.

[00:43:19] [SPEAKER_02]: So people don't just have a singular thought of killing themselves and act on it.

[00:43:23] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, it may happen, but it is unbelievably rare.

[00:43:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's the biggest myth.

[00:43:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Even if it's spontaneous, it's kind of not.

[00:43:31] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, when you talk about what got you to that point, is it really spontaneous?

[00:43:36] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, again, words are limiting here, but is it really?

[00:43:39] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.

[00:43:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:43:40] [SPEAKER_02]: So I think it is going to be far more the souls, men and women, our brothers and sisters

[00:43:47] [SPEAKER_02]: of all different ages and demographics and everything else, far more, but the great majority

[00:43:52] [SPEAKER_02]: are going to be the ones who, like me, have been thinking about this for a very long time.

[00:44:00] [SPEAKER_02]: And even for a child, they've been thinking about it for a while.

[00:44:04] [SPEAKER_00]: When's your birthday?

[00:44:04] [SPEAKER_02]: This is January 12th, 1963.

[00:44:07] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm a winner, baby.

[00:44:09] [SPEAKER_00]: January 12th is what?

[00:44:11] [SPEAKER_00]: Sagittarius?

[00:44:11] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know that shit.

[00:44:12] [SPEAKER_03]: No, Capricorn.

[00:44:14] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, you're Capricorn.

[00:44:15] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[00:44:15] [SPEAKER_00]: You're 61?

[00:44:16] [SPEAKER_00]: 61.

[00:44:17] [SPEAKER_00]: 61.

[00:44:18] [SPEAKER_00]: And we're in June and people will hear this.

[00:44:20] [SPEAKER_00]: It takes a couple months, whatever.

[00:44:22] [SPEAKER_00]: It'll be like late summer.

[00:44:23] [SPEAKER_00]: Will you be alive to hear this episode?

[00:44:26] [SPEAKER_00]: Should we choose?

[00:44:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.

[00:44:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.

[00:44:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.

[00:44:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Will you be alive for your 62nd birthday?

[00:44:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.

[00:44:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Think you'll die a natural death?

[00:44:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:44:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:44:35] [SPEAKER_02]: And I would not have been, I mean, obviously the answer to that question would have been

[00:44:39] [SPEAKER_02]: very, very different six months ago.

[00:44:42] [SPEAKER_02]: It would have been different two months ago.

[00:44:44] [SPEAKER_02]: This most recent experience, I don't even remember.

[00:44:48] [SPEAKER_02]: I have to be told how bad it was.

[00:44:51] [SPEAKER_02]: That's saying something.

[00:44:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Like I've never, in all my 60 plus years of living, I've never had an experience of depression

[00:44:59] [SPEAKER_02]: where I had to be told how bad it was because my brain shut down to remember it.

[00:45:05] [SPEAKER_00]: I just had this like image if I were making like a movie, but it was sort of like artsy.

[00:45:11] [SPEAKER_00]: You'll tell, you'll know real quickly that I have no idea what I'm doing with respect to that.

[00:45:15] [SPEAKER_00]: But there's, there's gotta be this image, right?

[00:45:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Of a pebble hitting a windshield.

[00:45:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[00:45:21] [SPEAKER_00]: It starts to do what pebbles often do to windshields where it starts to like break off into all these tentacles, right?

[00:45:28] [SPEAKER_00]: All of these like things, which is your life, which is you.

[00:45:32] [SPEAKER_00]: But then now that you're in a space where you're doing better and it sounds like it might be a longer lasting thing.

[00:45:39] [SPEAKER_00]: Like what are we doing with that windshield now?

[00:45:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Is it like, it's not tentacles.

[00:45:43] [SPEAKER_00]: It's like, you know what I'm saying, right?

[00:45:44] [SPEAKER_00]: Are they still there, but they're like tinged with a certain color?

[00:45:47] [SPEAKER_00]: Are they connecting?

[00:45:49] [SPEAKER_00]: Are they disappearing?

[00:45:50] [SPEAKER_00]: Like what, what does it look like?

[00:45:52] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I think part of it is, is I think one, the windshield is still in that broken state just in terms of like how it is.

[00:46:00] [SPEAKER_02]: But what we're doing is, is we're talking about it.

[00:46:04] [SPEAKER_02]: And then there will be a point.

[00:46:06] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know when that's going to be, but there will be a point now then where there will be either.

[00:46:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Either I will hire somebody to fix the windshield or I will go to Home Depot and, you know, and get something to fix the windshield.

[00:46:20] [SPEAKER_02]: But what I love, you know, what's fun about ECT?

[00:46:23] [SPEAKER_00]: You might've just said something that no human ever, ever said before.

[00:46:26] [SPEAKER_00]: Do you know what's fun about ECT?

[00:46:30] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.

[00:46:31] [SPEAKER_00]: So those seven words in that particular sequence, I don't know if anyone's ever said.

[00:46:36] [SPEAKER_02]: I love ECT.

[00:46:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Tomorrow will be the 31st time.

[00:46:39] [SPEAKER_02]: I will go in.

[00:46:40] [SPEAKER_02]: I will see my beloved doctor.

[00:46:42] [SPEAKER_02]: It's an opportunity.

[00:46:43] [SPEAKER_02]: It's another opportunity to experience a method of healing and to create relationships with some amazing people.

[00:46:52] [SPEAKER_02]: So I, you know, I look at these, all these experiences with my family.

[00:46:57] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, my, so Deanna and I never had children.

[00:47:00] [SPEAKER_02]: My beloved Summer has three children.

[00:47:03] [SPEAKER_02]: So now I have children in my life and my kids, how they have been, how they've supported me.

[00:47:09] [SPEAKER_02]: They are, they know all about ECT and they know where I'm going to my treatments and they know parts that I have forgotten about or not.

[00:47:16] [SPEAKER_02]: And if they're unbelievably loving and supportive.

[00:47:18] [SPEAKER_00]: How often do you speak?

[00:47:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Usually three to four times a month.

[00:47:23] [SPEAKER_00]: What kinds of institutions do you typically talk to?

[00:47:26] [SPEAKER_02]: So I do a lot of work with the military in their fight with suicide.

[00:47:31] [SPEAKER_02]: So I give my talk to a large group of soldiers and I talk about the Boy Scouts and being raped and all those things as a contributing factor.

[00:47:41] [SPEAKER_02]: At the end, the commander, Lieutenant Colonel Daniel Trouse calls me into who I knew.

[00:47:46] [SPEAKER_02]: We got, I already knew him somewhat.

[00:47:49] [SPEAKER_02]: He said, would you please come into my office?

[00:47:51] [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm like, absolutely, sir.

[00:47:52] [SPEAKER_02]: No problem.

[00:47:53] [SPEAKER_02]: And he says, David, he said, your talk was really powerful.

[00:47:56] [SPEAKER_02]: The part about the Boy Scouts really broke my heart.

[00:47:59] [SPEAKER_02]: So David, I was an Eagle Scout.

[00:48:01] [SPEAKER_02]: And then he took his hand and pulled out his wallet and he pulled out what looked like he's facing away from me.

[00:48:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Pulled out what looks like a credit card.

[00:48:09] [SPEAKER_02]: And then he says, he's looking at it.

[00:48:10] [SPEAKER_02]: He said, David, when you become an Eagle Scout, they give you this.

[00:48:13] [SPEAKER_02]: And he said, you go to any Eagle Scout, they will have this card.

[00:48:18] [SPEAKER_02]: He gives me the card and I look at it and I'm like, wow, sir, that's incredible.

[00:48:22] [SPEAKER_02]: And brother, I go to give the card back.

[00:48:23] [SPEAKER_02]: He says, no, you keep it because you've earned it.

[00:48:28] [SPEAKER_02]: And I have that card.

[00:48:30] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm like, whew, pretty amazing.

[00:48:32] [SPEAKER_02]: I love that guy.

[00:48:33] [SPEAKER_00]: That is pretty amazing.

[00:48:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Who else do you talk to?

[00:48:37] [SPEAKER_02]: A lot with education.

[00:48:39] [SPEAKER_02]: We like to talk to kids about suicide.

[00:48:41] [SPEAKER_02]: A lot with community mental health organizations.

[00:48:45] [SPEAKER_02]: A lot of times they will hire me to do work.

[00:48:48] [SPEAKER_02]: And then faith-based communities of all differently from Judaism to Catholicism to New Thought.

[00:48:56] [SPEAKER_02]: What I want to do is I want to make this thing called suicide prevention.

[00:48:59] [SPEAKER_02]: I want to make it doable because I think it's too big.

[00:49:03] [SPEAKER_02]: People are like, what could I do?

[00:49:05] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, let me teach you three ways to be connected, seen, heard, valued.

[00:49:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Thus, if you can create the space for somebody to feel truly connected based on Dr. Brown's

[00:49:17] [SPEAKER_02]: definition, you are going to create an environment in which there is the possibility that somebody

[00:49:23] [SPEAKER_02]: could have the experience of hope.

[00:49:26] [SPEAKER_00]: Can you boil down those three things?

[00:49:29] [SPEAKER_02]: Recognition, understanding, and expression.

[00:49:31] [SPEAKER_02]: So I teach people, become great at remembering people's name.

[00:49:36] [SPEAKER_02]: Like, do that.

[00:49:38] [SPEAKER_02]: With understanding, what you see is almost never what is.

[00:49:41] [SPEAKER_02]: There's always a story.

[00:49:43] [SPEAKER_02]: And so make me a promise that when you leave this time with me today, you'll never ask a

[00:49:49] [SPEAKER_02]: why question again.

[00:49:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Because why almost universally makes people defensive.

[00:49:53] [SPEAKER_02]: I want you to ask a what question.

[00:49:56] [SPEAKER_02]: Not why did you do this?

[00:49:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Say what inspired you to do this?

[00:49:59] [SPEAKER_02]: And then the expression is, we got to let people know how we feel.

[00:50:03] [SPEAKER_02]: Until three years ago, August 31st of every year was the worst day of the year for me.

[00:50:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Even then, because of the obvious reason.

[00:50:09] [SPEAKER_02]: Went to the mailbox.

[00:50:10] [SPEAKER_02]: There was a card, addressed to me, but no return address.

[00:50:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Open it up, and the card has on the front, advice from a glacier.

[00:50:18] [SPEAKER_03]: And I'm like, who the fuck cares?

[00:50:21] [SPEAKER_02]: Open up the card.

[00:50:23] [SPEAKER_02]: And in big orange crayon letters, it says, happy today.

[00:50:26] [SPEAKER_02]: And it's from this incredible friend of mine who knew that August 31st was going to be a tough day.

[00:50:33] [SPEAKER_02]: And he went on to tell me who I was for him.

[00:50:37] [SPEAKER_05]: Wow.

[00:50:37] [SPEAKER_02]: And what I tell people is, you know what that card did?

[00:50:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Changed August 31st from the worst day of the year to, it's my New Year's Day.

[00:50:45] [SPEAKER_02]: And you know what my celebration is?

[00:50:46] [SPEAKER_02]: I drive back to the bridge.

[00:50:48] [SPEAKER_00]: You do?

[00:50:48] [SPEAKER_02]: I do.

[00:50:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Just park my car in the same spot and walk to the midpoint, make sure I make eye contact with all the passing drivers and wave to everybody.

[00:50:57] [SPEAKER_02]: And I just give celebration for the 12 months that I was alive.

[00:51:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Wow.

[00:51:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Interesting.

[00:51:02] [SPEAKER_02]: And this year, it will be even more amazing because of that most recent experience over the dip back into, well, really a spot that I had never been.

[00:51:11] [SPEAKER_02]: It'll be even more this 12 months.

[00:51:13] [SPEAKER_00]: You're going to be fucking glowing on that bridge.

[00:51:16] [SPEAKER_02]: I'll support my theory on the three ways to make connection with a quote from a man by the name of Dr. Drew Ramsey, who's an amazing psychiatrist.

[00:51:25] [SPEAKER_02]: He's an author, an associate clinical professor at Columbia.

[00:51:29] [SPEAKER_02]: He's a farmer.

[00:51:31] [SPEAKER_02]: He's big in nutrition.

[00:51:32] [SPEAKER_02]: So here's what he says.

[00:51:34] [SPEAKER_02]: Check this quote out.

[00:51:35] [SPEAKER_02]: And this is in the second half of my base speech.

[00:51:38] [SPEAKER_02]: I'll use this quote three or four times because I think it gives it substantiates, if not gives validation to what I'm saying.

[00:51:49] [SPEAKER_02]: And here's what he says.

[00:51:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Someone you see today is thinking about killing themselves.

[00:51:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Your smile, your question, your love could save them.

[00:52:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Trust me.

[00:52:01] [SPEAKER_02]: They told me it did.

[00:52:03] [SPEAKER_02]: And here's this patient who had been suicidal.

[00:52:07] [SPEAKER_02]: And Dr. Ramsey said, basic.

[00:52:09] [SPEAKER_02]: I always imagine this, that Dr. Ramsey said, why are you here?

[00:52:12] [SPEAKER_02]: And the person said, I'm going to kill myself.

[00:52:15] [SPEAKER_02]: But somebody smiled at me.

[00:52:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Somebody asked me a question.

[00:52:18] [SPEAKER_02]: Somebody expressed how they feel about me.

[00:52:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Too many people believe, oh, shit, there's nothing I could do.

[00:52:23] [SPEAKER_02]: Like, I'm not saying you're going to save every person's life.

[00:52:26] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm not saying it's your responsibility.

[00:52:27] [SPEAKER_03]: All I'm saying is it's a possibility.

[00:52:30] [SPEAKER_03]: I just want you to try it out.

[00:52:31] [SPEAKER_02]: That's all I'm asking you to do.

[00:52:32] [SPEAKER_02]: That's it.

[00:52:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Nothing more.

[00:52:34] [SPEAKER_02]: I think because in the space that you and I are in, there are certain things that you,

[00:52:39] [SPEAKER_02]: well, you just can't say that about suicide.

[00:52:41] [SPEAKER_03]: Like, well, no.

[00:52:43] [SPEAKER_03]: You know?

[00:52:43] [SPEAKER_03]: So that's why I'm not like, no, it's not your responsibility to save somebody's life.

[00:52:48] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm really glad you were able to make a career out of that or enough sufficient money or

[00:52:52] [SPEAKER_00]: whatever your goal is to be able to, one, do, do have the talks.

[00:52:55] [SPEAKER_00]: Two, to have sat your ass down and wrote a fucking book.

[00:52:59] [SPEAKER_00]: I've tried it really hard.

[00:53:00] [SPEAKER_00]: I think you're going to like the title.

[00:53:02] [SPEAKER_00]: You ready for the title?

[00:53:03] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, you said it's Mental Hellness to Mental Wellness.

[00:53:06] [SPEAKER_03]: No, that's not the title of the book, dude.

[00:53:09] [SPEAKER_01]: What's the title?

[00:53:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Wait, what was Mental Hellness to Mental Wellness?

[00:53:12] [SPEAKER_01]: That's just what I tell people when they say, what do you do?

[00:53:15] [SPEAKER_02]: And I say, I tell people my story, which is my journey from mental hellness to mental wellness.

[00:53:20] [SPEAKER_02]: That's how I describe it.

[00:53:22] [SPEAKER_02]: What do you do?

[00:53:23] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, what's the title of the book?

[00:53:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Look, you'll like this.

[00:53:27] [SPEAKER_02]: My Troubled Mind Now Calm.

[00:53:29] [SPEAKER_02]: And it says, Essays on Depression, Hope, and Healing.

[00:53:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Which I'm like, okay.

[00:53:33] [SPEAKER_02]: I wrote this in 2019.

[00:53:35] [SPEAKER_00]: What are the titles of your speeches for your work, your presentations?

[00:53:41] [SPEAKER_02]: The talk is The Why of Suicide and The How of Hope.

[00:53:45] [SPEAKER_02]: Either I'll use that title or I'll use Sometimes What Hurts the Most Can't Be Seen,

[00:53:49] [SPEAKER_02]: and Sometimes What Helps the Most is Easy to Do.

[00:53:52] [SPEAKER_00]: And you said within the speeches, you use a lot of story.

[00:53:55] [SPEAKER_00]: You mentioned using animals in your story.

[00:53:57] [SPEAKER_00]: What else you got with story stuff in these talks?

[00:53:59] [SPEAKER_02]: The stories are really, they're really good.

[00:54:03] [SPEAKER_02]: There's one called Depression, Fuck You, No More Scarlet Letter.

[00:54:07] [SPEAKER_00]: You had me at Depression and Fuck You.

[00:54:09] [SPEAKER_00]: I love it.

[00:54:10] [SPEAKER_00]: And okay, fine.

[00:54:11] [SPEAKER_00]: You don't want to take my memoir title work.

[00:54:13] [SPEAKER_00]: A gift I want to give.

[00:54:15] [SPEAKER_00]: It's okay.

[00:54:16] [SPEAKER_00]: This has been really good, David.

[00:54:17] [SPEAKER_00]: I really, really appreciate it.

[00:54:18] [SPEAKER_02]: This has just been, I mean, I thought, dude,

[00:54:20] [SPEAKER_02]: I could literally talk to you for the entire day.

[00:54:23] [SPEAKER_02]: But just seriously, please know, if there's anything I can do to support you.

[00:54:27] [SPEAKER_02]: I appreciate it.

[00:54:28] [SPEAKER_02]: It has just been, I just have had such a good time.

[00:54:32] [SPEAKER_02]: All right, my friend.

[00:54:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you very, very much.

[00:54:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Just let me support you in any way I can.

[00:54:36] [SPEAKER_00]: Appreciate it, my friend.

[00:54:37] [SPEAKER_02]: You're the best.

[00:54:38] [SPEAKER_00]: Take care.

[00:54:39] [SPEAKER_02]: Thanks, brother.

[00:54:42] [SPEAKER_00]: As always, thanks so much for listening and all of your support.

[00:54:46] [SPEAKER_00]: And special thanks to David in California.

[00:54:48] [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks, David.

[00:54:51] [SPEAKER_00]: If you'd like to talk, please reach out.

[00:54:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Hello at suicidenoted.com.

[00:54:55] [SPEAKER_00]: On Facebook at Suicide Noted.

[00:54:58] [SPEAKER_00]: If you'd like to learn more about the podcast, including our membership, check the show notes.

[00:55:03] [SPEAKER_00]: A whole lot of information is there for you.

[00:55:06] [SPEAKER_00]: And that is all for episode number 224.

[00:55:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Stay strong.

[00:55:10] [SPEAKER_00]: Do the best you can.

[00:55:11] [SPEAKER_00]: I'll talk to you soon.