Dan in Illinois (Chicago Tour) 🏙

[00:00:00] After the nervous breakdown, this one person I was dating forgave me. I was like, this person is so kind and if they like me, I can't be the worst person. And then that left me. I was like, oh, I was wrong about that. And that completely changed my life.

[00:00:50] Millions of people try to take their own lives and we almost never talk about it when we do talk about it, when we engage with people in all kinds of different pain. Most of us are not very good at it and I'm being kind by saying that you know most of us suck at it. So one of my goals with this podcast and related projects is to have more conversations and hopefully better conversations with survivors in large part to help more people in more places hopefully feel a little less shitty and a little less alone.

[00:01:17] If you are an attempt survivor or ideator, however you define that and you'd like to talk, please reach out. I'd love to talk with you. Hello at suicidenoted.com. Keep in mind we still have a membership and we still have a way for you to make tax-deductible donations and we still need your help. So if you can help out or if you know somebody who might be interested, please share that with them. You can find that rather easily on our website right here on Apple or Spotify or wherever you are listening.

[00:01:44] Today's episode is a little bit different. It was part of the tour, our Chicago stop. My guest, who's also a friend who I know from the personal narrative story world, found the space like all of my guests in the various cities did. We spoke on a Saturday and actually the following day we had a storytelling event where he and I both told stories among other people in the same exact theater where we talked for this episode.

[00:02:11] One of the more unique things about it is we were actually talking on a set. They were doing a play. There was a set with a couch and a chair and a lamp and a coffee table, which was kind of different. And you can actually see that somewhere on my guest, and yes, I will say his name in a moment, on his Facebook page for his Story Luck organization. Because it was Facebook Live, and that's actually what you will first hear when you hear my voice. And this episode officially starts with me talking to the audience.

[00:02:40] Please keep in mind, of course, we're talking about suicide. We don't hold back. Take that into account before you listen or as you listen. But I do hope you listen because there is so much to learn today. Today, I am talking with Dan. Dan lives in Chicago, Illinois, and he is a suicide attempt survivor. It's a given, and I say this to the people who are in the audience.

[00:03:08] We're talking about suicide and we don't hold back, and there's a reason we don't hold back. It's because if we're going to have the conversations, we need to have the fucking conversations. Excuse my French. I'm learning French. It's one of my favorite languages. And so that's what we do. So if you pause or walk away or get water, of course do that. But we need to have the conversation. So Dan, do you want to join me up here? Yeah. I think I covered most of the stuff. To anyone out there watching on Facebook Live, get involved as best you can.

[00:03:35] And then if you have questions or comments, put them in the comment section. We don't have any fancy things where we can see it right now, but maybe Dan can check or someone else can check at some point. Oh, maybe one of our audience members. That might get a little weird with the audience. Somebody give it a shot. If they have questions. Because their questions might be a little harder than mine. Dan, hey. Hi. Hey. Talking about suicide? Yeah. Slightly uncomfortable?

[00:04:02] Yeah. Is it? Even after 300 for you? I feel like... Who's doing the interviewing here? Do it. I love this. Do it. We should do it both ways. Sure. Because that's what you do too. Yeah. You have a podcast. A little bit. It's 100% the least uncomfortable thing I've ever done. Yeah. Uncomfortable. Was that from the first episode? Yeah. Yeah. I'm better, I think. I'm less nervous. I wasn't nervous. I listened back occasionally.

[00:04:29] I was more interviewee and less conversationally. Mm-hmm. I got... But I was like, early on... And we probably knew each other then. Because Dan and I met through storytelling stuff. But I started until maybe July, maybe around then, 2020. I was like, oh shit, I like this. I don't know if I'm good at it. Yeah. But I like it. And I feel like people want it. Enough people want it. Yeah. Yeah. You know? So I've been figuring it out. And the live thing, in-person thing, I just... That's different.

[00:04:59] Because some people are watching. That's different. I can act like... I can act like a complete imbecile. But if I do that on Zoom or Riverside, I'm going to cut it. Right. Can't do that. So this is kind of a cool challenge. And then, of course, this is one-on-one. But most of the other events are two, three, even four people. So anyway, you didn't ask that. But this is figuring stuff out. Yeah. Yeah. So you ask me whatever you want as we talk. But I will ask you. I know of a story you told at some point in the past, obviously. Yeah. About being a teenager. Yeah.

[00:05:29] I'll leave it at that. I don't think you're going to tell the story here in beginning, middle, end form. But I'm curious to know what your experience is with suicide. And if it stops there. Or does it continue on decades on after? Big question. Yeah. Uh, so in preparing for this talk, I've been thinking about it a lot. And having conversations with people around me being depressed as a kid.

[00:05:59] And I think that that's something that I look back. And it's like so obvious. I was like fucking depressed. Right. And I don't think I thought about it like that. Like even when I was like, my one attempt, I have an arc that I've sort of mapped out in my own head. Where there were three times where it was serious. Three different events. Yeah.

[00:06:28] And only one where I feel like I made a legitimate attempt. Right. I get that. And it's one of those things where I think, you know, somebody who took a bajillion pills or jumped off a thing would be like, ah, it doesn't count. I hear this a lot. Yeah. But so let me ask you a question. Yeah. So there were two times where, from what you just said, they're not really, they don't really count. Some people might say.

[00:06:57] I think, yeah, I think that my friends wouldn't count anything. And there's three times where I was in a place where it was like legitimately possible. How old was the first one? So the first one, I was a teenager sometime in high school and that was the most serious. One of the things that I was thinking about is being depressed.

[00:07:22] There's like there's a level of depression that's like they're different. Right. And you can get to that point because the level is so high. But also you can get to that point where the duration is so long, where you're like, I've been stuck in this space that I just it's like a survival thing, if that makes sense, where that's like how it felt.

[00:07:49] I was like, I can't spend another minute in this amount of emotional turmoil. And so the survival thing is the attempt? Yeah. Because it's like, what am I going to do? Like, I'm going to do another fucking three days of this shit. Like, I'll like I'm already insane. Like, that's sort of how it felt. But when you did my real attempt. And when you say that you were depressed because people use that in all kinds of ways. Right. Right. Right.

[00:08:17] It sounds like yours, given what happens when you're about to tell. Yeah. Is that look like for you getting high fetal position in bed, cutting, yelling? Crying? Like, what does it look like for you at that age? What was it? 16? 15, 16? I don't have a beat on it. It was in high school. Right. I believe. Right.

[00:08:43] I had a relationship with my mom that I did not enjoy. And a low to very high level hate for the city I was living in at the time. Midwest. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think I'm okay with saying that. Tiffin sucks. Tiffin? Yeah. What's Tiffin? Is that South? It's like mid. Nothing's going on in Tiffin. Nothing I wanted to do.

[00:09:12] That's part of it. But it was really, so there were like two major shifts for me from being a kid moving from Michigan to Ohio. And in Michigan, I had positive, close, pure female relationships. And when I got to this town, they were just like, boys can't be friends with girls. Really? And. Was this like a religious dominated?

[00:09:41] I was going to, I went from public school to parochial school. So that might've been a piece of it, but it felt like it permeated and I could not navigate it. I couldn't convince people like that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. That makes a huge, I don't know. Like that's a huge piece of like my genetic makeup is that I need both like male and female friendships that are platonic and close.

[00:10:10] I don't know. I was like torn up and eaten up. So there, there was some number of fights about things. I don't remember specifically, but I have a number of like anecdotes. Where it's like, this is a ridiculous fight. I got him. Uh, with my mom. Fighting with people. With my mom. Yeah. Right.

[00:10:34] My mom has passed now and we repaired our relationship well before she passed. Yeah. I feel like I'm being so vague and I'm like not trying to be. Okay. But it's like almost like there's too much details. The first one is the big high school. And like, I don't know. Like, yeah, it doesn't matter how you got there. You're there. Yeah. So I'm there.

[00:11:01] So basically I had been in a dark spot for a long period of time and I was like, this has got to stop. I'm a coward. Wait, hold on, hold on. I need to not be a coward about this. What does that mean? Like I want to die. I've wanted to die for days. So being a coward means you don't die. Yeah. Ending my life is not a coward's move. Yeah. So then once that sets in motion, what do you do? Do you start thinking about, I'm going to go to a bridge. I'm going to get a bunch of pills. You start thinking about method. You share as much as you want about that. Yeah. You start thinking that.

[00:11:31] Very little. Okay. It was just like a quick rundown of things. Yep. And none of them are going to work. And I'm just like, I'm going to like fucking brutalize myself and just like, it'll be bad and I will be in a lot of pain. Maybe on some level I was like, the pain will kick me out of it. I don't know if I had that level of logic running at the time, but I was mad. You asked like other things about like the ratcheting up. There's no crying.

[00:12:00] There's no fetal position. It is just for you, for me, darkness and misery. And when you, and I don't remember some of it, some of it is my parents fought. Sure. And like, I don't remember, I don't have vivid stuff about that, but like my sister does where she's like, you would call me and I could hear like mom and dad fighting in the basement. Right. And you were like, oh, that's crazy.

[00:12:26] Cause I'm hiding in a closet upstairs just to be away from like the sound of it. Yeah. And they also just like, it wasn't stuff. You know what I mean? Like some people argue about like infidelity or stealing money or like. They just argued. Yeah. It was like, it would like blow up and it would be like, oh, you know, can you plant this plant tomorrow? And my dad would be like, I'll do it at five.

[00:12:54] And that would somehow like turn into like a half hour of screaming. Not the ideal cohabitants. Perhaps. Yeah. Yeah. But they don't see it that way. They never saw it. I don't think. There was a point where they thought, or at least my mother thought seriously about divorce. I have two brothers and a sister. They're all about 20 years older than me. So I'm a functionally only child. Right.

[00:13:24] That is part of the low level depression too. In that, is that dumb? That's a, I'm not allowed to do that. Do that? Well, they're there. It's like a little different because you're streaming. And so I know that you're there. We're streaming here. We have it. So anyway. People there. I do the thing where I look at the camera. Yeah. We're looking at the camera now. We're looking at some people now. But yeah, there's just like layers to these things that I was all depressed about. But that was part of it is like, I loved my brothers and sister. Yeah.

[00:13:54] And not having them around was another thing that was just like this layer of, oh, I'm meant to be in a different unit than I'm in. Was like this feeling I had. And just in my youth, missing them was just turmoil. And I'd go through these cycles where it's like, I would miss them and just be like, I can't wait till they get back. I can't wait till they get back and think about it all the time.

[00:14:24] And then my mom would be like, oh, this weekend he's coming home from college or work or whatever. Three days before it happened, I'd be like dreading it. Oh yeah? And I would just be like, fuck him. Fuck my brother. I fucking hate him. He's never here. And now he's going to come and then he's going to go and it's going to fucking suck. And I just wish he wouldn't come and it screws up everything and blah, blah.

[00:14:51] And it was like such nonsense, kid emotional thing. And I would know after a while that this was a cycle. I'm like, he's going to be a block away and it's all going to change for me. And I would just go through that all the time where I would be pissed up until an hour before he showed up.

[00:15:15] And then I would wait in the doorway, like staring out the window, just being thrilled that he's walking up the front steps. When you, you said you were depressed. Yeah. Like did the therapist say you have clinical depression? Not until I was way an adult. So did you go to anybody to get help? Not until I was way, way an adult. So, right. So you're basically doing it on your own. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No friends or the friends you wanted, the kinds of friends you wanted.

[00:15:45] Yeah. I mean, that's going back to Michigan. Like I was, I think I'm like kind of born depressed, but it is interesting because my mom passed away and so there's photos of me and it's like me in Michigan, all smiles. Right. Yeah. Everything after that. Ohio. In Ohio. Ohio. I am fucking grim. I'm just like frowning.

[00:16:12] I am staring off into space or like just like daggers and the cameras. Like also at a certain age, maybe you would have moved in that direction. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was like sort of the ethos of the time of like teenage angst and things like that. Yeah. I want to know. So anyway, so I'm fucking. Yeah. But what happens on the day? On the day. Yeah. I go through a whole list of things. I'm like, none of this is going to work. I'm just going to brutalize myself. Brutalize. Brutalize. Brutalize is the word. Like you're going to. Yeah.

[00:16:42] So I got a knife. Yeah. I laid on the ground. Yeah. And I was like, I am going to just stab and then just like rip as much of my guts as possible. That's not a common way. Yeah. Well, I was just like nothing else is going to work. I don't know. I just like, yeah. In my head, I was like, there's not enough pills in this house. I don't even know what they do. Everybody always wakes up on television. Like it's so dumb. And.

[00:17:12] But if I, if you had a gun, maybe we're not talking. Yes. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think that there was some sense of urgency where it's like, if I don't do it as an impulsive thing, I will kick out and I just repeat this cycle. Yeah. And like there's. Then I'm like fucking. Yeah. I live a week where I'm not suicidal and then I'm fucking depressed again. Like it needs to happen. Right.

[00:17:39] I mean, like, no, the urge, whatever we want to call it, to survive is strong. You arguably. Sure. Sure. Hard to die. Like you're meant to live. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so like that sort of like ends up being what happens to me. So like, I'm trying to do it standing up. I did. That's I'm just like, I'm not going to be able to like. You don't have to reenact the whole thing, but do it. You can do what you want. But yeah, so I lay down. Yeah. Well, I'm like, I am reenacting it because it was so upsetting. So I'm like this. I've got it all. And I just go as hard as I can.

[00:18:08] But sort of what happens to me is this motion is hard. Yeah. Like to go straight. Right. And if you like are at home and decide to try it, like if you just do this, it's like a natural to the right. Like you just spin. Because you're right. As a righty. As a righty. You're going like I'm going at force. You know, I think a religion person, a religious person might be like that's like a little bit of a miracle.

[00:18:35] But it was like I went as hard as I could and it slammed into the ground and like ricocheted out of my hand. I was just like, God fucking damn it. And I knew that that was enough that it was going to kick me out and I wouldn't have the courage to do it anymore. And I was so mad. Yeah. Because, you know, you're still going to face the same days ahead. It was mostly about the cowardice. And this is. You tried and you're still saying you're cowardice because you didn't complete. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

[00:19:04] Like that's a big motivating factor of just like my entire life. Like the idea of cowardness and like what I internally think of as a coward. What would a coward do? And I don't want to do that. There's something about cowardnessness that I dislike and I don't think of myself that way.

[00:19:25] And if I do things that are contrary to my values, not of being like heroic, but of not being a coward. Right. It's just I will be mad for long periods of time, like high level mad. So I'm in this state of just like I went from suicidal to just internal seeing red rage. I'm just like, what the fuck am I going to do? I'm clearly not going to kill myself.

[00:19:56] Like that moment has passed. The fucking noise, the idiot knife thing. And I'm just in a rage and I'm like holding on to the kitchen table, circular like fucking for Mike or whatever it is. And I'm just like, and I see this cookie jar that is our just like family cookie jar. And it reminds me of Michigan, of this time where I was happy, where I was like with my fucking family.

[00:20:24] They could come see me. It's not like once a year at Christmas. It's like on weekends and shit like that. And I just unthinking, just smash it with my fist. And then immediately I'm like, I am a fucking idiot. Not a coward though. No, no. I mean, I was like the cowardice is like whatever. Like I have to like, I'm just going to be mad about it for the rest of my life. Like obviously you can see like I'm mad that I didn't kill myself. But it's not a moment. You're bloody too.

[00:20:54] Well, that's the thing is I was completely unhurt, unfazed. It's shattered. The lid has fallen to the ground. There's just fucking glass everywhere. And I'm like, not even this. Not even this in phases of me. And then like, I don't know, two minutes later, my hand explodes in blood. Just a million micro fractions. What's happening in the two minutes do you think? Like just biologically.

[00:21:24] Is that chemical? What are those chemicals? Yeah. Is it adrenaline? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Is it just like shit's not working? Am I in a zone where I'm like, I don't know how much time is going by? I don't know. Yeah, a period of time. But it is like, now I'm completely out of it. And you're just like, okay, I'm an idiot. I'm not going to kill myself. I'm not even that depressed anymore. Whatever was happening is out. That was my failed attempt. I'm never going to try again. I mean, that's how I felt at that moment.

[00:21:52] I was like, okay, this is the embarrassment. I can never be in a situation where I'm like this fucking embarrassed at myself again. So I'm never going to try again. Well, it was a breadcrumb. Did you try it? You tried twice more. But there were different kinds of attempts. I had two more points in time where the pain was at that threshold. Yeah. And the longevity of it. It was sort of one or the other. But I did not make a serious attempt.

[00:22:21] I have the weirdest thought right now. Yeah. So much so that I think I'm not the person to be doing this work. Okay. One of the things I was thinking about when you said you punched a cookie jar. Yeah, yeah. I thought, what kind of cookies were in the cookie jar? Absolutely nothing. It was empty. Good. Because the other thought I thought, maybe I'm being like parent-like or big brother. Yeah. If he punches the jar and he cuts his hand, the cookie crumbs might get in there.

[00:22:50] And in fact, imagine you died that way. How fucked up with that? Like a random fucking. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And when was the, so that was teenage in the last, you had two more, you know, you didn't attempt, but you had a similar thing. Was that also teenage, 20s? Yeah. So I had a situation in college where I was very upset at myself with behavior around people that I was dating.

[00:23:20] Uh-huh. And I could not see a way to navigate it in a way that felt moral to me. Mm-hmm. And I just felt like a catch-22. That was a long period of time. And there was other like school stuff that was building up that I was like slacking off on. I don't know how long it was, but I just like, that's the one point where I was like, oh, I had a mental breakdown. Mm-hmm.

[00:23:47] The part that I remember is that I was in my room and I didn't leave for, I'm going to guess, 24 hours. And I hid under a laundry basket. Mm-hmm. And I'm just by myself in my apartment. Under a laundry basket. Under a laundry basket. For, who knows? Right. Right? It's like. The optics of that. Somewhere between like. Unwell. Like six hours. Yeah, it's a lot. And like. Yeah.

[00:24:16] 24 hours. Right. And a long stretch of that is just like, okay, so I have gone and stained. I knew a way of it. Yeah. There was something about it. I like have a recollection of. Mm-hmm. Just being like that thing of like, I need to be small and hidden. I need to be as small as I'm feeling. Mm-hmm. How do I get into that space? I need to be under something. I need to be like. When there was a laundry basket. And there was a laundry basket.

[00:24:44] I remember putting it on and being like, I am fucking certifiable. This is insane. Mm-hmm. And then not being able to get out. Until you did. Yeah. Until. You know, whether I slept and woke up or what happened, I don't remember. You know, I ask a lot. Every time I ask people on this, the podcast and these events, like what are some really big myths or misconceptions from your point of view, from your experience about suicide or suicidality. Number one is they say it's not selfish. Okay.

[00:25:13] Top three though is it's not cowardice. Oh. And you're saying for you, it's not necessarily the opposite, but it's a really different perspective is by not completing. That's the cowardice. That's it for you. Yeah. Yeah. The cowardice. You also say. No, other people didn't say that. I feel like that's what they're saying. It's not cowardice. It's actually a really brave thing to do. That's what they're saying. Yeah. Yeah. But it's less about completing or not completing. They're like even the attempt. Right. You're like saying.

[00:25:43] No, that's bullshit. Hold on. Hold on. Well, you just said like, I don't like, you just said, I'm still pissed about it. And that was, I don't know how old you are, but decades ago. And if I asked you, and I will. Yeah. Would you rather be alive or dead right now? Yeah. I was going to complete it with, I think I know what you would say. I don't know for sure. Well, actually just to answer the question, that's easier. Would you rather be alive or dead right now? I am not suicidal and I'm not ever going to take my own life. Okay.

[00:26:13] There's a but kind of. Yeah. But, but. Space between. Yeah. There would have been something. I don't know. I believe in an afterlife. I believe in forgiveness and redemption and death would have been okay. Right. Yeah. It was interesting to listen to you later saying I'm still pissed. Yeah. I'm still pissed. It's partly because you were talking about it. So I'm like back in that space. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Space. And I'm sure any given Sunday I would be like, of course I want to be alive. Yeah.

[00:26:42] You know, normally that's my thing. I'm like, oh, I want to live forever. Like now, like. That's a long time. If it was that way, if it was like in the future, do you want to be alive forever? Yes. But. Wait, what? Right now in the moment, do you want to be alive? And I was like, wow. In this moment. Alive forever. Yeah, yeah. Alive on earth in this meat body. A hundred percent. I would take that forever. Ever. If I could have it. Are you aging forever or are you this? I don't, I don't care. That's just the opposite of what you said. It's fascinating. Yeah. It's a conundrum.

[00:27:11] But that's humans are allowed to experience. Yeah. It's a, it's a paradox. That can coexist. Nuance. Gray area. Yeah. Usually when I get in arguments with people about the forever thing. Yeah. I'm just like, well, I'll reassess after a thousand years. I know that there's a thousand years of stuff that I want to do. I don't even know if there's a month of stuff I want to do. Oh my God. Dude. Oh my God. I'm so mad. I have under management issues. A lot of madness. Wait. So, so. Yeah.

[00:27:40] Going back to teenage years, but moving forward to how many people know. Let's talk about the one attempt. Not even worry about the other ones. Okay. Okay. That one big one. How many people know about that? In the world. And there's two parts to it. Strangers versus not strangers. You told the story on a stage about it. Those are mostly strangers. That's fine. That's public. Probably before I told you and it was for you were working on like the mental health. Like 2022, maybe 21. Yeah.

[00:28:09] 2021. 20, 2021. Yeah. Yeah. I think that that is the, I don't think I ever talked about it. Dude, nobody was home when you did it. Nobody was home when I did it. Nobody found out. Nobody found out. It probably took a week before they realized the cookie jar had broken. And nobody asked. My mom was like super cool about it. She was just like, ah, shit breaks. You know, she just assumed, you know, probably got bumped. Shit breaks. It was very old. Not a bad memoir title. Shit breaks. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:28:38] She doesn't talk like that, but like emotionally. It was like, we were really good as a family. Like, so I'm like talking about it. This is one of the things that I was thinking about is I was in this place where I was super sad, especially about my relationship with my mom. After, you know, meeting you and during the pandemic, we were like, all of us in that group of yours

[00:29:05] were very hardcore about doing storytelling stuff. And then I ended up doing the thing where I helped a thousand people. Is it really a thousand? That's a lot. And I love it. Yeah. I think it was probably 800 at most. I. It's a little marketing gimmick. It's. How was it? I was doing a lot. I was doing really well. I didn't get it in. I say that I. Part of the marketing gimmick is I said I did it in a year. It was really like a year and. Was that just. A lot. Okay.

[00:29:35] But it was like a year and a half. Probably. It took me to get to a number where I was like, this is a thousand. But. You were probably correct. Like some of it. I'm like, okay, I'm counting my group classes or. Sure. No, no. I mean, Malcolm Gladwell's 10,000 hours. Like there's all, you know, whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Whatever you want to make the numbers. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The point is that you were helping people out. Yeah, yeah. And you were. But the point that I'm coming to is like, I met so many people with childhoods. Right.

[00:30:03] That mine did not compare to. And it was like, I went from like. I was kind of like known. Like, boy, nobody wants to dance parents. Right. Right. Nobody wants to. All of a sudden. They seem like crazy. But. Yeah, I just had no comprehension. That was a big thing for me. Interesting. Of just perspective of being like, oh, I had the best fucking childhood. Like it went from like, I was top tier bad. In Tiffin. Yeah. In Tiffin.

[00:30:33] And then I'm like, oh, I like had an idealized childhood compared to like. The people who were coming in and like wanted to talk about that stuff. It's weird because you just don't know. And as soon as you have like a wider breadth of understanding human experience, it's like. Oh. Oh, yeah. Oh. And there's like a lot of relief to it. The more you have. I dated a girl.

[00:30:59] And then after me, she dated another guy who she was like, he had the best. Like he has nothing sad about his childhood. And she's like, but he has a breadth of emotion still where you would be like, you could only have this if you've known sorrow. And it's like. Really not? No. And so she's like, just this like dumb shit that would not bother anyone happens to him. And he'll be like, oh, this is the worst thing of my life.

[00:31:27] And she's like, I had to come to terms with. Because I couldn't be like, nothing bad has ever happened to you, Bob. Right? Like that can't be your response. And she had to like reckon with, if this is the worst thing that's ever happened to him, it's still the worst thing that's ever happened to him. Like emotionally. Right. That's our shit. But she doesn't have to date him. Those are two different things. Yeah. But they're a lovely couple, I think. No, no, no. Yeah, yeah. No, I think I get what you're saying. It's relative.

[00:31:56] But there's still a objective truth to you or subject. Yeah. The truth to you about it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like you can learn all you want about other people. Yeah. But your shit's still your shit and it affects you later. It's interesting. Yeah. So very few people knew until a few years ago. Yeah. Now, does anybody in your family know to this day? Because I don't know if they heard that story. Or I don't know if they're on Laji. Dan's family, if you're watching, hello. Could they be watching right now? I don't think right now.

[00:32:25] But they'll probably catch the thought. This is news to them? This cookie jar and the blood and the knife and the depression and all of it? Yeah. I would think that they would be like, oh, that makes sense. Dan was depressed. Right. But you never had the conversation. But I probably never had the conversation. And this isn't the thing why I'm saying you should have. Right, right. That's not what I do. I'm just curious if you did. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No. Wow.

[00:32:50] And so that was like a pushback for you that I thought about on this thing where I was like, it does bring shit up for me to talk about. Yep. And also, I'm like, the truth is, I feel like I'm over it. You know what I mean? And so it's funny. It's like this thing. It's like I think about it or I talk about it. Then it's like, do you have to like poke this bear? Do you have to like go back to this stuff? Depends on me. Is that a rhetorical question?

[00:33:20] Because intentions matter a lot for me. Yeah. And why I do it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And can I share with you? Yeah. So you're agreeing to do this. Yes, yes. So that means that if you get affected, you're a grown up. Yes. And you're going to handle it. Yes, yes. And I'm not going to be antagonistic. Right, right, right, right. Somebody's watching or listening. Yeah. And this is going to sound a little bit corny. Somebody out there is going to resonate. And they may not be look like you or be your age. We were talking about this earlier.

[00:33:49] You don't know what they're going to resonate with. And it might be the thing about feeling like who knows? Yes. I needed female friends. And then, oh, shit, there's somebody else like that? That's why. Yeah, yeah. That's why you go back. For me, selfishly, what I want to hear from people is the stuff because you just don't know who's out there hearing it. And it's the stuff we don't typically talk about. Not that you've never shared that, but you talk enough about this stuff. Yeah. You're probably going to go to places.

[00:34:15] If you're like a lot of people I've talked to, oh, I've talked about it, but not like really talked about it. In those spaces, there's people that are like, holy shit. Yeah. They've never heard it. That's why. Yeah. Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But if you're over it, cool, then you're better. Yeah. Or like, it sounds like you're better. Yeah. You know the pink and purple pill question? No. It's a perfect transition to that because you said you're better. Yeah. One, it means you don't listen to my podcast, so get your shit together and start listening to my podcast.

[00:34:45] Yeah, I couldn't do it because it would be poking my bear. Oh, would it? Just listening? Yeah, yeah. Ah. I can't deal with it. Damn. I give you a pill. Yeah. You take it. You go to sleep. You don't wake up. There's no pain. Nobody knows it's suicide. Mm-hmm. Do whatever you want with the pill. Can't sell it. Right. Basically, you throw it away. You save it. That's the other option. Yeah. For a rainy day. Will you take it? I would not have it in my life. Why?

[00:35:11] When I got together with my significant other who I'm with now, we had a talk. Maybe, I don't remember the time frame of the talk, but she was like, don't. Do this thing. What's the thing? Don't kill yourself. How did she know that was a thing? I don't know what, I don't, I don't remember how it came up. Whether I was talking about being depressed or sad.

[00:35:41] I know that there is someone in her life who she's pretty sure killed themselves. Okay. And there's some murkiness about that situation for me. And so it might have come up about that. But she was like, you've got to promise me that you're not going to do this thing. That's an interesting space to be in. And... Promise me you're not going to do it. Yeah. Not that she used that tone, of course. Right.

[00:36:08] And it's another, like, cowardice point for me that's, like, important where my word is my bond. Mm-hmm. You know, and I'm not very, I'm not, I'm hardcore about it in certain aspects of my life. And it's like, if we're pinky swearing, like, that, like, fucking means something to me. If I tell you that I'm going to show up at 1.30, I'm, that's less means something to me.

[00:36:37] What time were you good today? I was late. Okay, because we didn't pinky sweat. Yeah. Partly because we didn't pinky sweat. When was the last time you pinky sweat? Maybe this. Oh. Right? Like, I'm using that as a metaphor. Sure. But, uh, but yeah, I did a gut check and I was just like... This is with her. Yeah. And I was just like, this is serious. She's serious. Yes. And also she's, she's saying and implying, and I can't read her mind, but if you're not

[00:37:06] going to be that way, then it's going to be hard for me to be with you. Was it like that kind of energy? Or just like, I need to know if you are considering I have to brace myself or prepare? Because I don't know if this was in the very beginning when you met or like a year in and it came up. Because I think that's probably a pretty common thing people deal with. They also don't talk much about. The way I thought about it was, for me, I can't be with this person if I think I am a risk.

[00:37:35] Like, it would be like against my honor. Any person. To be with her. And so it's like, does this make sense that I should never do this thing? Yes. Then I like need to make that commitment to her and to myself. And then as soon as I made that, it was gone. I've never, I basically never ideated it ever again. Oh, all right. Because I was going to ask you if you had, it might be tricky to talk to about it. I'm not saying it would, but it just might be. I think it's tricky to talk about it with anybody. Yeah.

[00:38:05] Only in that it's tricky to talk about it with anybody. But you never heard. I don't think I would hide that if I was doing it. But it did just trigger something to me. And like, if it comes up, I just go to that. Oh, wait. I can't. I gave my word. When did you, you said that you were maybe born depressed. Yeah. But these days, obviously a teenager is different than being a grown man. Your brain is different. Your body is different.

[00:38:33] But do you still sometimes feel that level of depression? That high and that long? Yeah. So the third one is like, as an adult, and I had it like that high where I could have like done a thing. So I'm curious, and this is presumably for both the second and the third, because you didn't. What stopped somebody when they're that high or maybe that long? All of it. I'm not, no. Yeah. So the second one, I had a nervous breakdown instead.

[00:39:03] Okay. And then. No, I just, it was days under a laundry basket. Oh, that lasted days. Okay. I don't remember. Yeah. But. It's a while. Yeah. It lasted, you know, maybe it lasted until I woke up. But I was days in a horrible state. Yeah. Where I wasn't going to classes, wasn't picking up my phone, wasn't leaving. And then I went under a laundry basket. And then when I got out of the laundry basket, I was like, oh, I had gone insane. You think it was?

[00:39:33] Whatever. Yeah. Yeah. Whatever like people talk about, like when they talk about like having a nervous breakdown, like that's, that's what happened. Like if there was a scene we need. And then I was fine. Well, that's probably not that common. Basically. But there's a scene, fair or not, that someone picks to like, this is what an instant for a movie. That would be the scene. Yeah. Dan under the laundry basket. Yeah. Probably. Yeah. So, and then the third one, for a couple of years, I made my living as a day trader.

[00:40:03] Oh. And. Which years? 2017, 18. A day trader. Did you have success with that? Yeah. I was very successful. I learned a lot. I feel good about it. I made some friends. I got very lucky. I was with a group of people who were smart and thought about it well. Cool.

[00:40:23] And then I, I made a trade on a index that I had not done enough research about. And I had just like done the thing that you people say happens. And I just like fat fingered the number. And I went in too big. And I was just like, what could happen? And it was like 10 minutes later, I had lost, I don't know, $10,000. That sucks.

[00:40:53] I had not been inoculated. And at one point I was at a $23,000 loss. And I was like, I had done a lot of research. I was like good. And, but I was not, these were not numbers that I was like, this was not my wheelhouse to lose. Right. $23,000 in an hour. Good deal. Like, and I was just like, oh fuck.

[00:41:18] And, and just the ratchet of like self loathing and just like, oh, I'm an idiot. And then like, this is everything. And I was just like, I'm going to jump off this building. So what stopped you? I just thought about Mackenzie. I got, I made a little bit of a move. I thought about Mackenzie and I was just like, wait, you made a fucking promise. So just the promise is the difference. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:41:45] And so, and then the end of that story is I was just like, I got to go for a walk. And I went for a walk and I was like, this is not doing it for me. I am not comfortable losing this kind of money. Yeah. What'd you do? And I went to the internet and I asked some people and I was like, this is what the fuck I did.

[00:42:11] And a guy DM'd me and he was like, you're going to hold this till tomorrow and you are going to be fine. You're going to make money. Was he right? And if I would have held it, as long as he told me to held it, I would have made a ton of money. Oh, I was that. I got it down to like a, I don't remember how much, but like an $8,000 loss. Okay. And, uh, and then I bounced. I was like, I'm not, this, this thing's crazy. I'm not touching this. I was, yeah.

[00:42:39] So I don't usually talk about the day trading in my life, but there was a two year break where I didn't do like any Storylock stuff. Yeah. Now you're back. And now I'm back. And that's where we're streaming your page. Yeah. Storylock. Yeah. Show tomorrow night. Yeah. You said earlier that you had thought about and talked to a few people about this conversation, even though I didn't send you any questions. I usually do that. I didn't send you anything. Yeah. No idea.

[00:43:08] Um, was there other things that you thought about that you wanted to talk about that may not have come up or didn't ask about? Cause I have a couple more small questions, shorter questions, and then we'll open it up to the masses. Like I know you, is there like, I wonder if I think there's a myth thing. I think I'll push back on the myth thing. Like I, it doesn't bug me when people say it's like a coward's way out. It does not. Ned doesn't bother me. I don't think that myself, but I think that that is a very defensible position.

[00:43:35] And I think that they're like, logically that makes a lot of sense to me. Like you aren't reckoning with how much you're loved and how much you will fuck up other people. Oh, I got people who listen to this podcast that are pissed right now, but that's fine. Cause I like all of it. I want to hear all of it. Yeah. I think that, yeah, you have, like, I think that we do have some sort of obligation to

[00:44:01] the fabric of society and these friends and family and stuff like that. There was two parts to it. Cowardly and fucking up people's lives. Did I miss something? I think there was another thing you put there. I did. Yeah. I just think that that argument is defensible. There's something about it that you're not. When you're in that space. I don't know that this happens to me when I'm ideating it.

[00:44:25] I don't think I ever lose faith in the little research that I've done about like, so like other people who get depressed have an ideation where they're like, nobody loves me. That never crosses my mind. Can I ask you a question? Yeah. Do people love you? Yeah. Is it possible that some people don't have people that love them? Now I'm asking slightly loaded questions. I usually try not to.

[00:44:49] I think that I am lucky in the amount of unconditional and very close to unconditional love that I get. Yeah. And that I know that other people aren't that lucky. I know that part of my general makeup is that I love people. Hmm.

[00:45:14] And so like the very real, like logical, technical answer to your question, is it possible that someone has someone that nobody loves them? It is not possible because I exist. Right. They haven't met me. Like I'm not in their life, but there is a person who has an intense care for them. And there's people in my life who are more hardcore about that sort of thing than me. Right. You've written books or no?

[00:45:44] I have not finished the book. Memoir? I'm working on memoir stuff. And there's going to be a short one that is about growing up in Tiffin. What's it called? I don't have a title for it. Well, you have to find one. Yeah. No. But it's about, I go through a process where I write the rough drafts. I post them online on my social media. I get feedback. I revise them. I do them live. It's a crowd source.

[00:46:14] Different places. And then they end up on my medium, which is sort of their final form. And then once they're finished, I will collect them. And so there's like eight to 15 that I have drafted out that I've been working on about this experience of Tiffin, Ohio. Centered around a girl who is nice to me. Yeah. You want to share anything else with me? Or them?

[00:46:41] Oh, the other thing that came up in the conversations, which was your question, like what came up that we didn't hit on? One of my friends was like, this is because you grew up Catholic. Oh, here we go. And it's the guilt. It's that Catholic guilt. And I definitely, as a kid, thought that I did not have it. I saw other kids that have it, and I was like, I don't have that. Catholic guilt. Yeah. I wasn't worried about it.

[00:47:04] But the way I sort of transmorphed the Catholic guilt was I had a religious experience as a child around third or fourth grade in Tiffin. And we were going through the Stations of the Cross, which is a thing that you do with the rosary for those who aren't familiar.

[00:47:23] And there's different ways to do it, but there's a way to do it where someone does this guided meditation, and it can be very brutal because they're talking about Christ carrying the cross. We were in a brutal rendition of it, where we're praying the rosary, which is a very sort of repetitive, like you're doing a Cohen kind of thing.

[00:47:48] The trick to it, if you're doing it well, and I find that Catholics are bad at it, but is that you are praying this rosary, and you have, you're saying the words, but the words disappear, and your mind is on the meditation, right? So your mind is in this place of like watching this really horrific death that, you know, if you're not religious, the myth of Christ.

[00:48:15] For me as a child, I was in that, and a bright light came to me and was like, your name is Daniel, I am God, I am your judge, and you are not worthy. Oh, shit. I was like, that's right. And I just felt very true. As a kid, I could rate myself against other people on a scale of morality and how we act.

[00:48:44] And if we just compartmentalized it to little things or specific things, I would do okay. But I was like, on the whole, I'm like, I'm the worst. Yeah. Yeah. And I, and that's how I felt. I was like, I'm the worst kid. How old are you? Just, that was my whole, from third grade to. Connects to what we're talking about. Until college. That's part of the teenage years, that event. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There. That's there. Sure. I thought that I was the worst person. It's a big thing, yeah, sure.

[00:49:13] So, yeah. I think there is like some, there's some Catholic guilt that has created the depressive monster is probably reasonable to say. The other thing, I guess in that, in this like arc of like, there's these things was another, after the nervous breakdown, it was a different incident. But the, this one person I was dating, like, forgave me.

[00:49:40] I was like, this person is so kind. And if they like me, I can't be the worst person. And then that left me. I was like, oh, that's, I was wrong about that. And that like completely changed my life. That's not in the memoir? No. I haven't, I haven't written that story. So yeah, I would hear that one. We have got a question from someone in our audience. Yes, sir. I have a slightly silly question. Yeah.

[00:50:09] I'm sure it's appropriate for the topic. What is your method of suicide attempt modeled after a video game, like finishing move? With the whole riffing and gus. Interesting. Yeah. Interesting question. I think that I must have been on some level familiar with that. Like it needed to be brutal is what it felt. Like World War II people from Japan would do it that way. But I don't know.

[00:50:39] I was like, I have the impulse. I need to act on this. It needs to be soon or this will fade. I don't think there was a video game thing. It was just like a, this has a high likelihood of working. I definitely can relate to the idea of like the only future I can see is where, what this situation perpetuates itself. Like nothing is going to change if I don't change it. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:51:07] And then somehow life continued and it changed, at least in my life. To me, a common link between a lot of the podcasts that I have listened to is the person deciding like, like kind of which attempts count and which. Yes. Right. Like that is very cloud theme. Right. And what makes them count versus not counting is it. And then there's other people where it's like, well, I can't be on your podcast because I

[00:51:34] didn't do it in a way that seems like I'm not qualified. Yeah. I'm not eligible. Yeah. Well, tell me a little bit more. You're eligible. Like if I've had one person, it's interesting, said those, some of the people, not many, but some of the people we're talking to should not be on your podcast. They're not actually so suicidal. I'm a suicidal in terms of everybody. They are not. Yeah. It's fair. I get it. Yeah. I have to make a decision. I do cut it off, but like, okay, appreciate it.

[00:52:02] I'll keep doing it the way I'm doing it, but I want to hear your thoughts about it. Yeah. Don't mean to offend, but this is just like. I'm that kind of guy. I'll write that email. Yeah. I want to know. Most of them are so nice. It's like, no, no, no. It's not that good. Relax. Give me some stuff that isn't working. Tell me what's not working. Tell me what you don't like. Yeah. You don't have to be a jerk about it, but that's the only way you get better. Yeah. If everyone's, oh, it's great. You know, five stars. Yeah. I mean, it's cool that your ego gets a boost, but no, no, no. Tell me what's wrong. Tell me what you want to.

[00:52:31] I can't guarantee I can change it for you. Right. Right. I just know about it. You good? Yeah. Thank you guys for. Yeah. Thanks so much. Thanks for Facebook. Thanks Facebook landia. Yeah. People for watching. You know, but end of my, the outro of my podcast. Tell me. As always. Oh yeah. As always. Thanks so much for listening and all of your support. Special thanks to Dan. Thanks Dan. You're welcome.

[00:53:00] If you are a suicide attempt survivor or ideator and you'd like to talk, please reach out, which I'm saying this to you when you hello at suicidenoted.com or on social media. And then I say, stay strong, do the best you can. I will talk to you soon. Awesome.