Cei in Nebraska

CN: When somebody says, I didn't have it as bad as you, screw that. Because then you're telling somebody who doesn't maybe get hit as hard as you that they have no right to their journey, that they have no right to feel bad. So you never judge somebody else's pain. So there is no worse off.

SW: Hey there, my name is Sean and this is Suicide Noted. On this podcast, I talk with suicide attempt survivors so that we can hear their stories. Every year around the world, millions of people try to take their own lives and we almost never talk about it. And when we do talk about it, many of us, including me, aren't very good at it. One of my goals with this podcast is to have more conversations with attempt survivors and hopefully better conversation. We are talking about suicide. This may not be a good fit for everyone. Please take that into account before you listen. I do hope you listen because there is so much to learn. Now if you're a suicide attempt survivor and you'd like to share your story, I'd love to talk. You can email us at hello@suicidenoted.com If you like this podcast, please keep doing what you're doing. Listen, and you can let people know about it. If you rate it and review it, this also helps get the word out there. People in places like Italy and South Africa and the UK and Germany have heard these stories by these survivors because they matter. I want more people in more places to hear them and I really appreciate your support. Today I am talking with Cei. Cei lives in Nebraska and he is a suicide attempt survivor. Hey Cei, how are you? 

CN: I'm okay.

SW: Where are you by the way? You in the Midwest somewhere right?

CN: I'm in Nebraska. There's a herd of buffalo outside. I'd show it to you, but you wouldn't be able to see it anyway. They’re social distancing.

SW: Sure, understand. Well, thank you for doing this. I really appreciate it.

CN: Thanks for asking me.

SW: Yeah, my pleasure. I always ask people this. The great majority of the people who have tried to take their lives are not talking about it publicly. I can say that with absolute certainty. How did you come to that where you were okay talking about it? How did that happen?

CN: I guess I got to the point where I had absolutely nothing left to lose. Then I realized that because I had nothing left to lose, it didn't matter what I talked about. And then I realized that talking about it made people feel a little less quote-unquote crazy. And I know crazy is a derogatory term, I mean, for lack of a better… and then folks started to tell me, thank you, or something similar. And so I did it again. And the more people told me, don't do that, that's risky, the more I did it because I don't like people telling me what to do.

SW: So where were you doing that, where you started to talk about it? Would that be online or offline spaces?

CN: Well, online didn't exist when I started, so yeah.

SW: And people were receptive or it just varied?

CN: Receptive. Um, I'm kind of a freak of nature where people come up to me in grocery stores or hotel hallways and tell me their life story. Um, or I'll walk in to deliver something off like marketplace or free cycle or whatever. And they'll talk to me for two hours and that sort of thing. So, and it's always been like that. So if they seem a little sad, they'll, they'll just vomit out their troubles and, and I'll share my story and then we'll both walk away feeling a little better. And that's, that's been that way since I was 17, 18 years old.

SW: What is that called? Is there a name for that?

CN: A deep sense of empathy and a little bit of sadism, I guess.

SW: That's an interesting combo. Maybe. Share with me in as much as you're comfortable about your attempt or attempts, what they were like, however you want to sort of frame it. It's your story.

CN: My first attempt was when I was nine and I didn't even really know that I was doing it then. It was probably an accidental attempt. My first memories were when I was about nine, 10 months old and they were memories of being abused by my father, sexually abused. And that was, that was the longest experience of my life. It didn't stop. The last attempt was when I was 19, of him being inappropriate. And when I was nine, I tried to gut myself of the organs they preferred, if you will. And it caused a lot of bleeding and ended up in the hospital. But because that was a willing thing that I did purposely to try and end the icky, you know, I count that as an attempt because if it didn't work, I just wanted to cease to exist anyway. And it didn't work. I ended up in the hospital and everything was stitched up. Blood was replaced and I was back out there again. But I consider that my first attempt. My second attempt was about a year later. I didn't know that you couldn't die on Datril, but my parents didn't even know I was gone. I was in my room, sick and tired and asleep, passed out, I don't know. But I was in a pile of puke on my grandmother's quilt for like a day and a half and they didn't notice. Around 13, I was in a play, Arsenic and Old Lace. I was just sitting after rehearsal hours and stuff and I was fondling the starting gun, well it a gun, but it was a starting gun in the play. And just as I was like gonna squeeze the trigger, a friend took it away and it was just like a starting cap powder burn, you know, on the hand and stuff. But it could have done some damage and these were all non-thought out juvenile attempts, impulsive, that sort of thing. But it was just… so nasty that I just impulsively just wanted to escape. Nothing was really well thought out until I was about almost 16. I was incredibly creative, manipulative, convincing, and I ran away from home for about a week and a half, convinced my mother, who didn't live with us at that time, my mother's landlord, that I was supposed to be there, but she, my mom, who was a trucker, was on a layover. So I got access to her apartment and hid there for about a week. And when I was done hiding there, I went to my grandparents' house. And my grandfather, who was a co-participant in the sex abuse, it was better at his house though, because he didn't hit or call names. Just my father did all three of those things. So I was planning to do myself in. So I was on the front porch and I was, I didn't care anymore. So I was just, I was crying and my across the street neighbor his name is Jayhalla. I grew up with him and he came over and wanted to know what was wrong. And since it didn't matter anymore, I told him everything. And he was the first person that ever believed me. And he said, sit there and just be still. And he went into the garage where my grandfather was and he came back about 20 minutes later and he said, you don't have to worry anymore. And he didn't say it was going to be okay, but he said it was done. And my grandfather never touched me again. The next day, Jay brought me a red pen and a notebook and said, you know, instead of cutting yourself, write instead, it's the same color red. And I did.

SW: Dude, I wanna meet Jay! He sounds like a cool dude.

CN: He was. He was.

SW: Jayhalla. How old was he when he gave you that suggestion to…

CN: 24 because he's nine years older than I am. He was my closest friend in age, closest in age friend where I grew up at.

SW: Wow, so you had a lot of friends that were much older?

CN: Yeah, there were 12 kids. Well, 13 if you counted the snotty girl up the street, but we didn't really count her because she was the snotty girl up the street. But there were 12 kids at the time. I mean, it was a very small town.

SW: Yeah, so growing up in a small town and when stuff like that's happening, the stuff that you dealt with, I would imagine either way it's brutal and awful, but like even maybe harder in some ways.

CN: Yeah, later my cousin, who was also perpetrated by my grandfather, my father, he wrote me a letter and after I received that letter, we did some research and for people that would talk to us, some retroactive apologies, even though it wasn't our fault. And we figured out that probably three generations of kids were molested by our family. That's a legacy that's kind of sad, know, sad and hurtful and hard to deal with. But it stopped. I mean, it didn't go any further.

SW: Yeah. And so. You tried several times, right? So you said you were nine, then a couple several during your teenage years. When was the last one?

CN: You know, there's lots of thinking about it. But the last real attempt was, and I'm not even sure if it counts, but it was in 2015. So what was I 35? Was I 35? Oh gosh, 40, 45.

SW: You look good. You look young.

CN: Yeah, I'm 50. I wanted to cut off my hands with something, so my partner at the time just took away all the sharp things. It was on July 4th, 2013. There you go. My father isn't my father. My biological father is my father of record. And the last time that he attempted something was when I was 19 on the 4th of July because he was drunk off of his ass and thought that I was my mother and tried something in the middle of the day in the middle of a party. And the 4th of July has never been happy, really. So I had a dream and that put me in a bad place and I woke up and it was just, it was, it was hard. But, if I thought of it, I've been in, in bad places.  I have a vial of pills in case I ever need them. But now it's more of a quality of life thing because I have some pretty serious illnesses. But I have never been tempted to go there. Never. I have a therapist, I have an ESA dog. And through childhood and through my young adult years, it was an almost daily, you wake up every single day and say, you know, what am I going to do today to keep myself living? And I go through a period of depression now where that happens, but not very often.

SW: So when you're a kid or a teenager, it sounds like hardcore ideation. I don't know the technical word for it.

CN: Yeah, that is the word, suicidal ideation. Yeah.

SW: That's pretty extreme. That's hard.

CN: And probably dysthymia but super deep depression. Yeah, it was hard. I screwed up a good portion of my life.

SW: Sometimes I'll ask these questions and they're, I almost feel like they're either a little unfair or unanswerable, but I'll still ask them because I never know. Like, how did you stay alive?

CN: I had a lot of people that cared for me, um, in spite of my protests. I was, I was an addict and a drunk from the age of 11 to about 22. Um, I remember stealing my, my dad's, uh, red hearts and white crosses and taking them down to the truck stop about six blocks away. Um, Arnold's truck stop in Fremont, Nebraska and selling them to truckers. And I have no idea why those truckers bought for me because they would probably still be in jail probably.

SW: Right.

CN: But I started selling drugs and then, you know, because a good dealer doesn't take his own product. I wasn't, you know, high then, but just a couple of years later, I started getting high and started drinking and I didn't realize it until almost in my twenties. My, my dad, who was a law enforcement officer, would bring booze to my house because if the kids were drunk, he could groom them easier. I didn't realize that's what he was doing, but my house was the party house. But when I got older, And it just got so bad. I mean, I was, I was hooking sometimes. I didn't care who I was sleeping with. I was so promiscuous and all those things. They fall in line with all the classical symptoms and all that crap. But one day I just called a friend. I was that bad and I don't know what it was like. She never told me and she's passed away. So I'm not going to know, but I detox her house for about two weeks. And then I call myself a skeptical agnostic enjoying the mythology of Christ right now. Mythology, not mythiology, but I just, feel like something just, you know, walked in and sent me straight. I still don't know why I'm so well adjusted. And that said, I've got a lot of stuff up, but I just feel like I was supposed to be here to do something.

SW: It sounds like it.

CN: Yeah, and I don't know if it's done. Maybe there's more to do. I have a goddaughter now who's hurting pretty badly and she feels better when she's with me. So maybe that's it. Or maybe it's to tell the nurse that's attending to my death that she's doing a good job. Who knows? But maybe she's not born yet. Who knows? But the people that cared about me, even though I told them they're wasting their time and I'm not worth it, kept me going.

SW: Yeah. I don't know who's listening to this. I do know some time. I know that we have more listeners than we had yesterday, which is great , growing slowly, but I share that because presumably people that are going to find it, however they find it, some will probably be in bad shape. And maybe there are other people that are sort of in that position of helping or caring for or supporting. And it sounds like you had people in your life who cared and presumably tell me if I'm wrong. Some who responded not so nicely.

CN: Yeah. 

SW: After you tried and I always ask, I'm always wondering what does that look and feel like when it's, Hey, that's helpful. And what does it look like or feel like when it or sound like when it's whether you realize it or not, you're not helping. You're making this worse by your words or actions. So I guess it's a two-part question if that makes sense.

CN: You know, ironically, they both feel pretty crappy. Because when somebody is helping you, you really don't know you're being helped until probably down the line. And while you're being helped, often you have such a low self-worth or low self-esteem, you feel guilty because you're being helped. And you spend a lot of time trying to refuse the gift of help, the gift of caring, and trying to convince the individual that their time is better spent on somebody else. And you feel guilty and not worthy. And they have to try really hard to convince you that their attention, that you're worthy of it and that you're worth breath, you know? It takes a long time for them sometimes to get through to you. And in the meantime, if you're really good at convincing them, sometimes they just get fed up and they leave. So it takes a really strong sense of...Stictutiveness and good patience and a good heart to keep on going and that's the people that are brave enough to bring suicide up. So many people are scared to say that word and then the ones that just go on through their lives being afraid, they're the ones you're fine with because They're either they're the neutral people the folks that are that are neuter that you don't even know about you know and they're the ones that you can be with the most comfortably and the ones that blow you off, say, you know, I'll help with anything and then they help you like three times and then they're gone. Those just reinforce the fact that you think you're nothing. So unfortunately, they're pretty much in the same category. It's not until you realize that perhaps you're worth a little bit that the ones that are helping you stand out to be in the better crowd. That takes a bit of work.

SW: Yeah. Why do you think people are so scared to bring up that word? Suicide.

CN: Because death has a lot of power. And when you die of natural causes or because of disease, it's not, it's something that you can't help. You know, I mean, maybe if you took a little more chemo or maybe if, you know, uncle, uncle Johnny could have gotten there just in time to, you know, maybe they would have waited for that or something. But suicide is something that a person can in theory control. And maybe if they bring it up, then they're going to push that person who could control their lives to it. And they don't want to be responsible for that. But people don't have that much power. They just don't realize that. I mean, talking about suicide isn't going to drive somebody over the edge. Hearing that word isn't going to make somebody do it. If anything, it'll give them permission to unburden themselves and get help. Pop the cork a little bit and let some of that nasty effervescence go.

SW: Maybe feel a little less alone?

CN: Yeah, absolutely. Because if suicide's scary to them, to the people that are afraid to say the word, imagine how it feels to the people that are considering it.

SW: Yeah.

CN:  They think if they say it, then they're going to cause it, and they're not.

SW: I agree with you. I've had people say, push back a little bit, maybe with super young people, you maybe they're like a 12 year old and you plant an idea, but I can't guarantee it. But I think I don't, I don't think so. Especially now. I don't know. I really, I'll never know. I try to do things responsibly, ethically. Look, I mean, I ask people these sort of questions that aren't typically asked. I don't think for example, people sharing with me how they tried. I don't think that's giving anyone any ideas. We don't go over blueprints here. No. But like you tell me that you took pills or you jumped off a bridge. That's part of the story and it's okay. And I think it's an important part sometimes to not leave out because this happens.

CN: Yeah, instructions are on the internet and if you were concerned about your kid having instructions, then you wouldn't put them on the computer. And having been a 12 year old that had already attempted, I would have welcomed adult intervention or adult conversation that was healthy. Hearing adults having conversations would probably stop a lot of this stuff.

SW: I want your thoughts on this. I don't think most adults, let's assume we're talking about ones that are well intentioned. The ones that aren't, I think is a different conversation. I don't think they actually know how to have those conversations. I don't know if I'm right there. I get the sense that they don't know what to say.

CN: It doesn't have to be at a suicidal moment though. I mean, as soon as your kids come out of the body, discuss what the body parts are called, discuss that everybody's skin is beautiful, discuss that your life is important. You know, parents don't even touch on those topics, not normally. I don't even know when my parents ever said, your life is worth living, you know, and if you feel sad, come and talk to me. Nobody ever said that to me. I'd say that to the kiddos in my life all the time. But I didn't hear it from somebody as a role model. You know, somebody had said to me, your life is important and if you feel sad, come and talk to me. Man, made a difference. So it doesn't have to be a suicidal moment. It just should be all time. You know, you're valuable and come talk to me when you feel sad. That's all it has to start with.

SW: Great point. Yeah, it's not necessarily that we're in a crisis. What do we do or say, or how do we handle it? It's every day. It's interesting because I mean, my parents cared about me, my friends' parents cared about them. And I don't think those were conversations we had much if at all. We learned a lot of stuff formally and informally, which is arguably what our culture thinks is important, right? Please and thank you. Don't cross the street. Look both ways. Basic math. Long list. We don't want to do shit, why?!

CN: It's a pendulum swing. I mean, a couple of hundred years ago or so, families lived in the same house and they all were nurturing and took care of each other. And then that got to be too stuffy. And then we all had bigger boundaries that were thicker. And then we all stopped talking to each other and separated. And then now, you know, that's getting a little more crunchy, granola, touchy feely. And it's just a pendulum swing. I just hope that the pendulum can be broken, you know, and maybe stay a little more touchy feely.

SW: Yeah, I haven't heard anybody say it like that. I like that. A pendulum. And that maybe there were times that we were better at it because it was like you said, right? We're around each other and we're probably 200 years ago in a more rural area. I imagine you're just collaborating or you have to.

CN: Yeah yeah. I mean, like now with this COVID-19 thing, families are closer. They're spending time together. They're playing games together. Neighbors know their names. They're having cul-de-sac dance parties, you know? That wouldn't have happened. I mean, that's one of the benefits of being forced to be together.

SW: Yeah, I mean, it's also a small percentage that have murdered each other, but other than that.

CN: Well yeah, but you know.

SW: No, I think on the whole, you're right. It makes sense that let's do this thing. I want to bust or dispel some myths that you and others might have or others have around suicide, ideation, attempt survivors, the whole shebang. Like what are a few that stand out to you that it's like, nah, that's bullshit.

CN: That  you can tell if somebody is suicidal. A lot of us are really good at faking it. For instance, at the major medical center that's here in my city, you can probably tell what the name of it is, it doesn't matter, but most big hospitals or hospitals in general say, are you feeling suicidal? Do you have any depression and lots of other things? And nurses can get into my record and know Um, when my last attempt was and that I am being treated for depression and that, that I will always say no, because, um, if you say yes, you are treated in such a manner where it's stupid because, I went to a, I went to have a seizure study done because I have a seizure disorder. And I said, well, sure. I feel a little sad because I'm in here for a seizure disorder. It makes sense to me. So they, um, they gave me clamshells for my dinner and plastic, uh, dinnerware. Well, having worked with juvenile offenders, I know that in a heartbeat, you can break off a plastic knife and make a shank sharper than anything. And I'm not going to concuss myself with my plastic hospital tray. I mean, that's just not going to be easy to do. So why do the clamshells make everything mushy and nasty? Plus it makes people remind themselves of how depressed they are. And when I'm in a hospital room with a neck of wires right around here, you know, and I have no sitter in the room to guard me from my suicidal ideations that are so bad that I have clamshells and plastic silverware. And then I counted up everything in the room that I could have harmed myself with. There were like 41 items in the room that I could have hurt myself with, but I'm so bad that I got clamshells for dinner.

SW: I'm not laughing at you, you know that, right? I'm at the absurdity of the way a lot of institutions or whatever, hospitals, call them whatever you want. Like the way they deal with sort of, think it's a risk averse model, risk aversion. But sometimes even that, like you were saying the examples, it's like, who's running the show here? What?

CN: Yeah, it needs to be more, it would be more kind if they had a human in there instead of some styrofoam and then not even thorough. Um, but, people, because of that, they hide it really well. Yeah. You don't want to be treated inconsistently, unfairly. I mean, I'm, I'm intelligent. I'm gregarious. I hang out with the community and stuff. And I know that was full of crap. It was just checking off a box and doing something small so they could avoid liability. Yeah. And I get that.

SW: Right, you nailed it, right.

CN: But it wasn't thorough. I could have hurt myself in just a moment. So if you're going to do it, do it all the way. And if you're not going to do it, then don't. Like now, I fake it. I say no every time because I know what's coming. Humans are smart. So you're not going to know a lot of the times if somebody is suicidal, we will hide it because we don't want to go through the crap. And we know that we're feeling bad today, but tomorrow is probably going to be alright. So why tell, why bother telling anybody? Cause you're not going to make a difference and I'm going to get is clamshell dishes.

SW: I have gotten to be such a, I wish I were better about this. I'm such a jerk about it now that when anybody asks a question, primary care, it doesn't matter, that type of line of questioning, I'm such a, I'm like, stop. And it's unfair, because I know they're just doing their job and their boss is gonna give them shit if they don't do the same. Stop, you know this is silly. Just check whatever you need to check. But I can't not do that. I can't just be like, No, I'm fine. There's a little bit of a fuck you and me. Come on, man, you know.

CN: Yeah, I'm well known on the medical campus because I sat on some boards and helped design their charting system. And I tell them I'm not going to answer those honestly. So how would you like me to answer them? And they know me by now. They just kind of laugh and they, you know, we go through it and I don't answer them honestly. But I'm upfront about the fact that I'm going to lie. So yeah, so that's one of the myths that you can't can't tell. 

SW: You can’t tell If somebody's suicidal?

CN: Not always, no.  And then we also don't cry wolf. I mean, never assume we're crying wolf. I mean, people might say all the time, you know, I'm going to commit suicide tomorrow and they don't. And they repeat that tomorrow for two weeks of tomorrows, but maybe on that second week and second day, that tomorrow comes true. So even though that person repeats their, their declaration over and over and over again, know that something is going on either there's depression or need for attention. Or they haven't developed the guts, quote unquote, to do it, but they're going to do it sometime. So don't take it for granted that they're just playing with you. I've heard often people say that, if they're saying it a lot, they don't mean it. That's not true. Sometimes they just don't mean it then. Sometimes the taste of that word in their mouth, it doesn't feel right that day. And they'll do it 14 days from now after trying that taste out over and over and over again.

SW: What about those two myths, the first one that you can't always tell, right? And the second one about I think you're essentially saying, believe what someone's saying.

CN: Yeah

SW: What was that like for you in your, and we're going way back, because you first tried when you were nine, right? Which is interesting. I had a conversation with someone yesterday and they were eight. I'm like, what the fuck is happening? Like eight, nine years old, it's like, wow. And you had that teenagers and then you in 2013 had what you're calling as a suicide attempt, right, with your hands. So you've been in this game for years.

CN: Yeah

SW: Would we be able to tell if you were suicidal? Would we need to ask? What do we need to do if you're, you know, not you per se, but I want you to use you as the example of like, are you letting people know or is it something that we need to? 

CN: Yeah, sometimes I am. will never tell her and it's very unlikely that she'll find this until she's older. My goddaughter keeps me going. For a long time, she was the only person that I loved. I didn't know that I could love. I thought I was broken. But I knew that I loved her and the thought of breaking her heart broke mine. So I stayed alive for her. Didn't matter how bad I was hurting. I stayed alive for her because the thought of her hurting is bad. I couldn't do it. And I found a very good therapist, finally for the first time ever. And I've just started learning my lessons a couple of years ago. I hope that it doesn't take people this long to do it. I hope they start sooner. But she has really good enunciation and she says bullshit really well. I kept trying. I just kept trying them on like pairs of shoes and they just didn't fit well. I mean, they looked good and they said the right things, but we ended up becoming friends and chatting more often than not. And she's friendly. And I would even call her a good neighbor if I lived in the same town that she did. But she calls bullshit all the time. And she's right. She knows when to. And she's got a way of poking thorns in my side to the point where pus leaks out that I didn't even know was there. Because in order to heal from crap, you have to let the wounds bleed, you know, and get all that infection out. That's a metaphor, but it's also the truth.

SW: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or you could go even further with it. That's how you have a healthy scar, right?

CN:  But if not, it's a problem.

SW: I am really curious about that. So it took you a while to find a therapist that you had that kind of connection with. Yeah, what's the difference? Because I'm sure a lot of people are, including me, not that therapist. He's OK. But nah, nah, nah, nah. Fuck it. I don't want to do this anymore. Right. Like, yeah. Why am I doing this? How many times am I going to start over again? But you found one. It's awesome.

CN: I did. I think a lot of my time has been spent just being too busy helping people instead of myself. Because folks get told a lot, if you feel really bad, help somebody that's worse off than you. I don't judge worse off because I learned a long time ago, if somebody says, I didn't have it as bad as you, screw that. Because then you're telling somebody who doesn't, who doesn't maybe get hit as hard as you, that they have no right to their journey, that they have no right to feel bad. So, you never judge somebody else's pain. so there is no worse off, but I spent a lot of time helping folks and making my mind busy with that. So I never considered my own problems until my world blew up about two years ago and then I didn't have anything to consider because I didn't have anything. So, that's when I found that therapist and it just all meshed, but, things have to be in the right place at the right time to do that.

SW: Yeah. How's the lockdown been for you?

CN: On one hand, it hasn't really changed that much because I, really don't, like I said, my world blew up two years ago. So, I lost a good, good number of my physical friends. I have online friends and stuff, but I also, so it hasn't changed much, but it also hasn't changed much because I was given a case of necrotizing fasciitis for my birthday in February. 

SW: What is that? Is that the flesh eating disease?

CN:  Yeah, it's on the, what's on the back of my neck and it was 16 centimeters by 11 centimeters.  And I was, if it wasn't for COVID, I would have been traveling around with my surgeon to prove that people can survive from that. They don't sit on cadavers. So I'm in and out of the hospital, at least once a week for wound care and that sort of thing still. And I have a nurse that comes to the house and all that. So, when I'm well, my social life will go away.

SW: Yeah.

CN:  So I still see people and stuff. So it really hasn't changed that much. It's just, I get cotton swabs down my face often to make sure that I'm still well. I yearn to be at home just by myself for a few days on some weeks.

SW: Yeah. There is a, have you written a book?

CN: Couple, yeah.

SW: Is there a theme on resiliency in there somewhere?

CN: Well, I don't know. It depends on if you consider it nonfiction or fiction.

SW: You tell me because it's like, this is not your typical story.

CN: I know, I mean, somebody said that I wasn't telling the truth that my whole life was lies. I don't dispel reincarnation. And I think this is just my last time on Earth. So I'm shoving it all in now, because I don't have any more trips. But like I said, I'm really not afraid of anything. I mean, a lot happened to me when I was very young. And I gobble up experiences like some people gobble up gumballs. I was outed on the evening news when I was 18. My house was set on fire when I was 20. I've just done everything I possibly could because I've just been thirsty for experience. And because of those experiences, people asked me to do this. I mean, you know, when somebody needs something, they ask the busiest person because you can rely on those people. And that and the fact that I'm a bit of a smart ass and I can do things well, because I only do the things well that I can do, you know, I've just had opportunity, but I've never traveled overseas and, I've never owned a poodle and you know, I mean, there's lots of things I haven't done.

SW: Sure, you can't actually do everything. That'd be a really long list. It's not actually possible, but it sounds like not just the stuff that you've done, but the stuff you've just dealt with, I guess.

CN: I'm not afraid to though. How many people are afraid to go up and talk to homeless people? You know, I'm not. My goddaughter had a lot of complications when she was young and she's got health issues. And so I've encouraged her to do every possible thing she can to build core strength and to be brave because she's going to be very small when she's an adult. And because of my contact, she's been in a movie when she was less than a year old. She rode a pony before she was four. I mean by herself like a real real pony not a Shetland. She's done all these things and So, I mean her life sounds fictional because she's done all this stuff, but it's to make her you know is confident and strong and as believing in herself is is possible, you know, so it's just who you know who can bless you and if you're willing to take that chance, so it's just you know, how brave you are

SW: Have you been able to see her in the lockdown?

CN: Yeah, yeah. She lives in Lincoln and I live in Omaha. And I'm moving to Seward, which is a town of about, I think it's about 8000 people. But it's 20 minutes from her front door to my front door. 

SW: Oh, cool. 

CN: Yeah. And I moved here because of medical stuff. They didn't know what I had in Lincoln. Specialists didn't have a clue. So I moved here three years ago, we figured it out. And now I can do care anywhere because I know what's wrong. So, so yeah, I'm moving back there. can be close to her.

SW: Yeah. Now, just so people know where you are in the world. Omaha, if I'm not mistaken, is the home of the baseball World Series, college baseball World Series. Are you aware of that? 

CN: Yeah, yeah, College World Series. Not this year, but usually.

SW: Right. Lincoln is the home of the University of Nebraska.

CN: The academic portion, yeah. Omaha is UNMC, the University of Nebraska Medical Center, the Mayo Clinic of the Midwest. We're the ones that take care of the Ebola patients and have one of the crisis centers for COVID when COVID first started. The people on the cruise ships came here. Yeah, have a really, I say really sick medical care, but that's the wrong word. SIC, not S-I-C-K. We have a really good… medical facility, Warren Buffert's Cancer Center is here and just a lot of experimentation and stuff. People that get big wounds in the back of their heads, they make medical journals, things like that. Yeah. It's a pretty cool place to be in Omaha and Lincoln both. Totally different fields. Omaha is kind of corporate business and really rushed and they have big skyscrapers and Lincoln has a law that nothing can be taller than the state Capitol, which is only 13 stories tall. And they have a more crunchy granola. It's easy to be poor there because everybody sings kumbaya sort of feel.

SW:  Right. Yeah. 

CN: So it's a very different town, but very close together.

SW: Any other myths? I like the myth convo.

CN: The myths?

SW: Misunderstandings.

CN: Being mentally ill does not make it suicidal. I'm a transgender individual and there's the statistic that in the queer community, trans folks are four times as likely to try and commit suicide than other queer members on the acronym, which is incredibly long. And folks think, that's because you're mentally ill. No, that's because of so many different obstacles and lack of support and things like that. You don't need to be mentally ill to try and commit suicide. You can be incredibly mentally ill and never think of it. It can be because of pressures. can have committed a crime and not know how to be in jail. You can have, you know, no solvency monetarily. You can have lost a child, had a divorce. can, a small pet have been, you know, died or whatever. You can have been bullied in school, any sort of pressure that you're just not able to handle or don't know how to handle can make you want not to live anymore. I know, I know two schizophrenic people, they're living with schizophrenia, killing themselves would never occur to them. One of them is very offended by the idea. So mental illness and suicide can go hand in hand, but they don't have to. And in fact, I think that suicide can sometimes be an okay option, but you have to be very sane in order to choose that option.

SW: : Do you think it should be, I don't know the law. I know back in the day it was illegal. Now I don't know if it's a gray area. Do you think that it should be something that people should have the right to do?

CN: Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely.

SW: Not just because you have a disease that's causing you a lot of pain, physical pain for example, because you simply don't want to be here. You get to decide why. Like don't have to justify it to the world. It's your choice. You think that's...

CN: If you're not mentally ill, yeah. But with a qualification, if you have, people are gonna wanna skewer me for this. If you have a very long history of mental illness, if you have like you said dysthymia or something that it just gives you so much mental pain and you've lived with that for a very, very, very long time. Or if your quality of life is bad and you just don't, whatever.

There shouldn't be any judgment. I don't have any idea what your life is like, but if you can prove that you're of mental competency and that decision is being made, or if there is an advocate for you that is not, a zealot in some, something, you know, that they don't want to kick you off for insurance and have a vested interest in keeping you alive or making you dead, then absolutely. Because we own our bodies and we own our lives and it's, it's an unpopular thing to say. It's a scary thing to say. Because everything is about, you know, everything is about life. But even pro-life individuals really seem to be more about pro-birth than pro-life. I mean, once we get born, people really care a lot less than before we're born. And we own ourselves. Suicide is in a time of crisis when we're making a rash decision because we hurt. We hurt and things seem hopeless. But if they don't seem hopeless, if it's just a thing that's chronic that we just absolutely can't live with anymore, or is causing us so much long-term chronic pain, then I think that's a different situation altogether. So yeah, I think it should be legal with guidelines. Because even if we have a child that only feels pain, we can terminate that child. If we have a spouse that only has certain reactivities and they only, you know, can do that, we can terminate that life. So why can't we terminate our own? That's the life that we have the most knowledge about. We don't know for sure that the person on life support can't feel, can't think, but we know we can.

SW: Yeah, there's something about suicide. We treat it differently than I think anything else.

CN: Yeah, yeah, it's scary. And because terminating our own lives seems really close to terminating in a time of crisis, it seems like it's the same thing, but it shouldn't be.

SW: I think it's more than scary. It feels like a lot of people look at it with repugnance.

CN: Yeah, it can.

SW: It's: not just  scary, it's like revulsion.

CN: Okay, frightened to the nth degree of going to Hell. You know, no one wants to go to hell. And I mean, when my dad was a child, he tells about getting in trouble for mowing the lawns around the graves of the people that killed themselves in the Catholic cemetery, because the graves weren't to be attended to. And he got in trouble for clearing them of weeds because they went to hell.

SW: I never heard of that before, that's a very...

CN: Old school Catholic. I'm a retrained left-hander. yeah, old school Catholic. But yeah, you couldn't, you couldn't, they went straight to hell. people are, they're revolted for a number of reasons. Many different cultures think that folks that did that were, they don't even exist anymore. They don't wanna follow. I mean, and their families, they can't join them in heaven. It's a scary, nasty thing.

SW: It's just astounding to me that with all our advances in some advances in medication, I suppose some advances in other areas of health or mental health, the suicide rate is going up, which is a little bit strange for me. That would be something that you'd think, I don't know, would be evening out or going down a little bit. But the data I find I nose around, right? I want to improve myself a little, understand the stuff as much as I can. It's not going down. I know you may not be an expert at suicide because you have tried, but I do like to ask people that kind of one of the points of the show is that you've tried. In my mind, it does kind of make you an expert, at least in your lived experience. What is going on?

CN: If you can afford the medications, you can take them. The population is bigger than it was, so more people are existing in order to do it. Folks have to work longer, which makes them, their bodies hurt more. I mean, folks are working until their mid-70s now, whereas before, my grandparents retired when they were in their mid-60s. People are living in more crowded conditions. The world is much more scary because of social media and news coverage. You hardly ever hear anything good on the news anymore. Depression, matter what you hear, my goddaughter, one of the reasons I want to be so close to her is because all she hears is COVID, COVID, COVID. And she doesn't understand the correct information. She thinks if you wear a mask, you're going to be safe, not the opposite way around. And she's terrified. I mean, she pulls out parts of her eyelids, eyelashes, and her hair, and she's eight years old. And this sort of depression is reaching tons of people. And we didn't have that sort of thing. I mean, back in the 80s, I know, okay, Reagan was a little weird and we had some political stuff, but yeah, well, yeah. But it wasn't as bad. It's become bad exponentially because of technology and the same technology that's giving us better health is also making us more depressed and more scared and bringing the world closer together and all those problems are just, they're huge.

SW: Yeah.

CN: We feel hopeless now and joyful, but we feel hopeless also.

SW: And add to that, you know what you had said earlier about the way we engage with people who are not doing well, pain, despair, distress. I can't imagine that helps very much either. In that we don't do it, don't know how to do it, whatever. Like, yeah, it's a lot of stuff.

CN: It is. I'm learning a lot about my friends with the Black Lives Matter thing and the COVID thing. It's teaching me a lot about people that I had thought different things about before. A lot of folks think that they know and they don't and vice versa. Would be well served to meet more folks and listen a lot, instead of speak a lot.

SW: Amen. You think you're gonna try again?

CN: Right now I would say no. If I get to a quality of life where my quality of life is very bad, I would hope that I have a living will in place and I have all that stuff in place and it's pretty well, I'm pretty well fortified for not living a life that I don't want to. But right now with my acronym-ed mental health, I'm pretty well maintained. I think that, I don't think I will because I know what my issues are and I know, I told somebody the other day underneath all of my emotions and hard times sometimes underneath all that I relax and I rest in the fact that it's mental illness causing these feelings. It's not reality. So when I'm freaking out, I feel really depressed. I can take a breath and take a fraction of a second to know that this is, this is not reality. This is just me manifesting the stuff that happens and then, now, in an hour or two or whatever or next day or next week, it's going to be okay. And then my dog will jump up and lick my face.

SW: Did you ever get a diagnosis that you felt was accurate?

CN: Yeah, yeah. Well, first there's PTSD. I was assaulted in 2014 and I was filling out a PTSD sheet after the assault and I asked the counselor, what do you do if all of these things are already true? So that was one of them. And then there was clinical depression and well-integrated DID.

SW: What is that? 

CN: DID is what they used to call multiple personality disorder. It's very common in kids that are severely abused or spouses that are severely abused. It's a way for you to go somewhere else when you're being hurt so that you don't have to experience it. Luckily, mine was well integrated. So my  personalities I took on or whatever, they weren't separate individuals. They were just different kinds of moods, different kinds of phasing out. lose, I lose time sometimes and I used to lose time then, but folks, they thought that I was just, a colorful personality that was high-strung maybe. But now I understand what it is and I tell people that I'm close to about it. And I guess the public at large now, but I tell people that I'm close to about it and I've written about it. It's in some poetry that I've written and stuff. It's odd because I can write a poem about anything and perform it, whatever, but telling somebody close to me is more difficult for some reason.

SW: And does medication help?

CN: Yeah

SW: It does, because  I know some people struggle to ever find medication that works or helps and others seem to, yeah, find something, right? Or things.

CN: Yeah, it's a struggle. There's something called pharmacogenetics. If somebody says that word to the doctor, they'll know what it is. pharmacogenetics is a study where chemicals will be tested on you to determine if those chemicals actually work on you or not. 

SW: Wow. 

CN: Yeah. I wish I could say it correctly. But it's rather new and it will save you a lot of time in finding the right medication. 

SW: Oh my god! Like that's an example of what I'm talking about. We're getting better at stuff like that. But you'd think that might have a direct, well, you gotta afford it. You have to have Insurance. There's other obstacles. Maybe in 20 years it'll look different. 

CN:  Medicaid and Medicare do cover it. It's a GI thing. But yeah, it's pharmacogenetics or something. But genetics is at the end and pharmacos in the beginning, so fill in the middle and they'll be able to help.

SW: Yeah, Google should be able to help you with that if you want to check it. I have two more questions and then I'll shut up and let you share anything else because I always say I don't assume I ask the best questions, the right questions. The reality is I could talk about this stuff for a while. If there's a kid out there who is experiencing the world in any way similar to the way you were, right? I know that there's very little you can actually do really. I mean, you can't, you're not going to fly over there. You're in your room in Nebraska. Do you think if they hear this, like, what do you think you might be able to say to them? Should they hear this? Are there any words that might bring them some comfort or give them something they might need?

CN: I have a practical piece of advice and an emotional piece of advice. The emotional piece of advice is just because people tell you that you're supposed to love whomever is talking to you doesn't mean they're going to treat you nicely. It took me a long time to understand that my father was screwed up by his father. And even though he was screwed up by his father, it didn't make it right. He was a grownup and he had choices to make and he made the wrong ones because he chose to. He might have loved me, I don't know. We haven't talked in over 20 years. But he chose to make the wrong choice in how he treated me. And just because he was my dad doesn't mean that I needed to love him back. I could if I chose to, but I also could not love him and I could leave. I could find a teacher, a fireman, anybody, and that's okay. If you're being hurt, if your body's being hurt or your mind's being hurt or… if they're having sex with you or whatever, if you're feeling bad because of the person that's supposed to love you, if they're telling you bad things about yourself, that's not okay. And you can leave. And social services are so, gosh darn, busy right now that if you're not bruised, if you have food in your house, if you have good clothes, they're probably not going to help you. So if they don't help you, go to a youth shelter, even if there's not one in your town, go to one where there is. But get away. I mean, and that's not… That's not recommended advice. But if it's that or your life, get away. I mean, just go away because not every parent, not every caretaker loves a child like they should. Not every teacher loves a child like they should. And it's because they were screwed up, but they're still adults and they still should choose the right thing. They just don't.

SW: Hmm.

CN: So don't trust social services all the time. Don't trust your parents all the time. Don't be an asshole and use that as an excuse because you got grounded because you used your phone after 10 o'clock at night. But if you're really hurting and you really think that you're not gonna live because they don't care for you, if that's the truth, then get out. Save your life and figure out the details later. That would be my emotional advice. My tangible advice is to have a go bag ready all the time.

SW:  Wait what do you mean a go bag? To take off?

CN: Because if you have to run away or if something happens, if you get in a fight with someone at home, because of the advice that I just said, you need to have a bag packed and ready to leave and not held in the house. It needs to be in a plastic bag buried under a rock or something or at a friend's house or something like that with a little bit of money and proof of who you are, some extra shoes, extra clothes, a few snacks, that sort of thing. So that if you do have to leave, you can make it for a day or two and always have that ready. If you think there's going to be an emergency, because oftentimes if you have a fight with your folks or something, they're going to shove you out the door and close the door, you know, and then what are you going to do? And if your go bag is in the house, you're screwed. And that's not just for kids with suicide in thoughts of suicide. That's where kids that are queer or trans or whatever and they want to come out and they may be thrown out. But keep your mind and body safe, no matter who's putting it at threat and then make sure that you can keep your mind and body safe for a day or two. So that's my bit of advice to kids. But just because you're in a traditional relationship with an adult doesn't mean that they're going to love you traditionally.

SW: Right. And the other part of the question would be to the people in their lives, the good ones, not the abusers. No, really. I mean, the ones that want to help and want to support, they're dealing with a child or a sister or maybe a coworker who's really not doing well. You've been on both sides for a while. Sounds like, do you have anything for them that might be helpful or useful for them to understand or embrace?

CN: Ask them if they have a plan. Ask them if they have a plan, ask them if they're gonna kill themselves and if they have a plan. Don't be afraid of the word suicide. Don't be afraid to ask them if they thought about how they're gonna do it. Invite them over. Even if they say every single day, twice a day, let them know that you're hearing them and you're gonna sit with them or you're gonna have somebody else sit with them or do they need a ride to the hospital? If they threaten to hurt themselves or somebody else, they'll be held for 72 hours. Maybe that's enough time to get them to feel better. It's difficult to commit someone without more than one individual being involved. But a 72 hour hold sometimes makes a world of difference. But just not to be afraid to talk about it directly and not to be afraid to keep, not keep it a secret.I  mean, tell someone, tell a relative, tell their spouse, whatever. But most importantly, just talk about it and ask if they have a plan. Get them to talk about how they might do it because if they're gonna shoot themselves, look for a gun. mean, look for ammunition. If they're gonna cut themselves, get rid of the knives, lock them up. I mean, childproof the house as if they were a toddler. I mean, that's, and then keep an eye on them for a while, but find out and then see if you can help.

SW: Yeah, mmm. What else? That's a big question, What else you got? No, I just, I always, like I have questions, but I'm like, I don't know. I'm learning this as I go. like, I could have asked that. So I just sort of throw it back on you.

CN: That's all right. I just, I think that if we, if we started in the beginning, in the first place, we wouldn't have the ending problems. You know, I mean, if we talked to our neighbors or at least waved, if we felt more of a connection, we wouldn't feel so alone. I mean, that's such a simple answer, but it's such a simple answer. I know. I mean, I asked my housemate if he knew his neighbors and he didn't talk to ‘em. I've only lived here for a year and a half and I know more about my neighbor than he has living here for almost 20. And I realized I talk a lot, but it's difficult for me too. He does this, um, Myers Briggs stuff all the time to a point where it's kind of nauseating, but to make him happy I did the test too. And I am an INFP, guess, which is like super rare and super closed up and introverted and stuff. But I'll go, I mean, nobody's a stranger in my life. And I wish more people could do that because if you could not make friends, just look somebody in the eye, you know, and it's, yeah. Or at somebody's shoulder because a lot of people can't do eye contact, you know? I have a young friend living with autism and I said, okay, let's both look at that dashboard. Now talk to me. Because if we have this point of connection, even if it's not at each other, then, you know, we can bond in some way. And a lot of times people are suicidal because they feel so alone. They just need some sort of connection.

SW: I never want to generalize, that what you just said really resonates. I mean, I have to think that the main thing really when you boil it down is that feeling of being alone.

CN: Yeah, I mean, there's precipitators for it. mean, maybe I committed suicide because I'm broke. But if I had somebody that just to be with and hold my hand through it or, you know, or talk about it, whatever the issue.

SW: Sure, sure, and if you're rich, you might be able to insulate yourself in a way that someone who's poor can't, you're go get a massage more often and you can go, you know, there's ways it doesn't mean you're not miserable and you won't try to end your life, but sometimes it's the cushion that you don't have when you're impoverished. Yeah, I think those are some wonderful points and I think that there are people who will hear it and be better for it, from what you shared, I really do appreciate it.

CN: Appreciate the opportunity.

SW: I always ask people, like, I'm always a little bit curious about their day to day life. Like, what's one thing today or tomorrow that you do that's super joyful?

CN:  I am working on this line of art called I'm Not Your Medusa. I make art and I donate it to charities and I realize that because they're charities, I get inflated prices for them. Not that I get the money the charities do, but. Yeah, but I averaged $300 or $400 a drawing. so the first one was this Medusa that she wasn't supposed to be, but somebody called her one. And I said, no, she's not your Medusa. And that just led to a string of things.

SW: Right, no, no, that's cool.

CN: I have one for Trump and every weird little lock of hair had something that he said that was vile in it.

SW: How many locks of hair are there?

CN: : I'll send you a copy of it. It's a lot of hair.

SW: There needs to be a lot of effing hair.

SW: It was a lot of hair. I didn't even know he said some of the stuff he said and it was, yeah. And that was a private commission. But, so I do that and I'm working on one of those right now. And I'm also moving and it's been my first place that I've lived in by myself for two and a half years because my world blew up. Yeah, a guy that called my brother for 10 years or so, I ministered in the same church that he did. Under him and found out, long story short, that he was not even ordained, but he embezzled from the church and did a whole bunch of nasty things and left couples at the altar and stuff like that.

SW: That was the main thing that you were referring to when your world blew up.

CN: Yeah. people around me and I brought him to task and exposed him for what he was.

SW: Was he just a flat out liar?

CN: He, we're pretty certain that if he were diagnosed, he would have narcissistic personality disorder. It's a mental illness. So, I mean, in my heart, I love him but the things that his illness caused him to do hurt a lot of people and he's incredibly magnanimous and he moved out of state and where he is now, it's got the same following.

SW: Yeah I’ve heard that story in some way many other times.

CN: Yeah. with the last mess that he made just got exposed and resolved four months ago and I cleaned it up, you know, yeah, because at the church we were considered to be, you know, business partners and stuff. So people, people kept saying, it's not your responsibility, but some of them, if I had acted like they told me to, I would have been legally responsible. So each mess that I find out about, or they contact me about, have to, to look at. So it caused me to be homeless and I was accused of some things that were his way of retaliation and things like that. And it's just been hard. I feel very battered by this community right now. So I'm packing to move anyway. I've been staying with a friend. I floated around for a while because they didn't have any resources, but I've been staying with my friend for a year and a half. So now I'm going to move into my own place in two and a half weeks. So I've been packing all of my stuff and drawing reduces.

SW: Right, and drawing, if God or the universe or whatever anyone happens to believe in, your life was not meant to be easy. Just because I said this to one other guest once, but you're the only other one where I think to myself, if it was supposed to be easy, someone made a huge mistake because it's just, you have had your challenges. And I say this without being truly trite about it or I don't even know what the hell the right word is. Like it's astounding. It's like, man, you are here.

CN: Yeah, but I've been really blessed. I mean, my seizure disorder has led me to meet some really incredible people. I wouldn't give it up in a heartbeat. I've been so blessed. And as a performance poet, I've written some things people told me not to perform. And then at the end of those performances, people have come to me and said, I thought I was crazy until I heard you.

SW: Usually when people say don't to perform it those are probably the ones you need to perform

CN: Yeah, yeah. And live through this. I've gotten emails from time to time and said, you saved my life and you know, so freaking humbled by that. Wouldn't have given that up. It was hard and I wouldn't want to relive it on purpose, but I wouldn't give it up.

SW: Yeah. Well, thanks again, Cei. And you have a great name.

CN: You're welcome. And keep in touch, you're a cool human too, I like you.

SW:  Oh, thanks Cei. I feel the same way about you. And I look forward to that link. And I'll talk to you soon. And until then, I hope your days are great.

CN: Yeah, good luck, you too.

SW: As always, thanks so much for listening and special thanks to Cei in Nebraska. You can follow us on Twitter and Facebook at Suicide Noted. We also have a YouTube channel, so if video's your thing, you can check that out. Again, if you're a suicide attempt survivor and you'd like to share your story, you can email us at hello@suicidenoted.com. Until we connect again, stay strong. Do the very best you can. I'll talk to you soon.