Carolyn in Ontario 🇨🇦

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_02] For so much of my life, I let other people tell me how I should feel about myself because of what I was going through. That's bullshit. If you're suffering from severe mental health issues, what you need is help and love and compassion and support and not judgment.

[00:00:38] [SPEAKER_05] Hey there, my name is Sean and this is Suicide Noted. On this podcast, I talk with suicide attempt survivors and ideators so that we can hear their stories. Every year around the world, millions of people try to take their own lives and we almost never talk about it. We certainly don't talk about it enough and when we do talk about it, when we engage with people in pain, most of us, so many of us, aren't very good at it. So one of my goals with this podcast is to have more conversations and hopefully better conversations with survivors, in large part

[00:01:07] [SPEAKER_05] to help more people in more places hopefully feel a little less shitty and a little less alone. Now, if you are an attempt survivor or ideator and you'd like to talk, please reach out. Hello at suicidenoted.com. It's real simple and I'd love to talk with you. I want to make you aware of a handful of projects that are all related that you might be interested in or perhaps you know somebody who's interested in. If you are, reach out to me. I've created a presentation called Less

[00:01:31] [SPEAKER_05] Shitty, Less Alone that I would love to be able to share with the right groups or organizations or people. Suicide Noted Live, which is a suicide-centered conversation facilitated also for the right kinds of groups and organizations. You're aware of my private audio practice, themissingrecord.com. And we're also starting to actively look for sponsors, which we really haven't done much

[00:01:55] [SPEAKER_05] in an effort to keep the podcast going and expand the podcast into new places, reach new people. And there are some other projects that we'd like to do a little bit more on the artistic side. You also know we are fiscally sponsored, so you can give a tax-deductible donation if you like and can. Appreciate that, appreciate your support, and appreciate you listening. Finally, we are talking about suicide here on this podcast. Please take that into account before you listen or as you listen. I do realize it's not for everybody, but I do hope you listen because

[00:02:24] [SPEAKER_05] there's so much to learn. Today I am talking with Carolyn. Carolyn lives in Ontario, Canada, and she is a suicide attempt ideator. Hey Carolyn. Hi Sean. I want the audience to know something. I'm talking to Carolyn the Canadian in Ontario, Canada. Carolyn and I spoke several months ago, and she and a handful of other guests, their audio files were not backed up by Sean, so they're either gone or stuck in an external hard drive, which may or may not be retrievable.

[00:02:55] [SPEAKER_05] Now, what gets even more interesting is that Carolyn and I have been talking for 10 minutes just now, and Sean didn't hit record. It's just, it's like, is Carolyn's story ever going to get out there? You said yes to reconnecting, which I appreciate. We are separated by the United States, literally.

[00:03:09] [SPEAKER_02] Oh yeah. Yeah, that's right. Cause you're in Mexico.

[00:03:12] [SPEAKER_05] Which could be a memoir title, not for you, but for someone. You're drinking water because you're on a medication that makes your tongue dry, mouth dry.

[00:03:20] [SPEAKER_02] Mouth dry, yeah.

[00:03:22] [SPEAKER_05] And it treats, you said earlier, it treats your ADHD.

[00:03:24] [SPEAKER_02] Yes.

[00:03:25] [SPEAKER_05] Without that medication, would our conversation sound or feel a little different?

[00:03:29] [SPEAKER_02] I'm not sure that I would have done it at all. I don't think I would have before I started getting medicated. I would have been too anxious. I also think it makes me more focused, a little more clear, a little calmer generally. I should probably be in some medication. The world is a really harsh place and it's a hard place to be in right now. I'm a firm believer that medications are the way that we cope with a life that is not designed for us.

[00:03:57] [SPEAKER_05] A world that is also not being designed well for our wellbeing. And it'll add that, oh, you sound crazy or conspiratorial. It's like, well, take a step back. It really is.

[00:04:08] [SPEAKER_02] I mean, do I think that like there's this group of people all at a table being like, we're trying to make everybody as depressed as possible? No, I don't. I just think it's a side effect of the type of society that we live in and the values that we have globally.

[00:04:24] [SPEAKER_05] You could have used the word a cabal. If you can ever work that word into a conversation, you do it.

[00:04:29] [SPEAKER_02] This is how you can tell that I don't watch a lot of TikTok conspiracy videos because I don't know the terminology.

[00:04:35] [SPEAKER_05] I know a lot of it in the suicide prevention world, most of which I think is dumb.

[00:04:39] [SPEAKER_02] Most of it is like, does very little to address the real issues that people are facing as far as their mental health. Like it just really doesn't help people. So it's like, what are we doing?

[00:04:51] [SPEAKER_05] And it serves a percentage of people, but not like a lot of others who just say, no, no, I've already called 988. I've had two hospital stays. I've tried to talk about it. I've done the things you say. Now what? I still feel like shit. Now what? That's what it does usually.

[00:05:06] [SPEAKER_02] Well, and it's kind of like a mix of like performative, like I think of like stuff like Bell Media in Canada. It's like, let's talk about it day.

[00:05:15] [SPEAKER_04] Let's talk about it day.

[00:05:16] [SPEAKER_02] Yes. Yes. And basically it's a day that's dedicated to talking about mental health, but like, it's just, it's, they've been doing it for, I think almost a decade or over a decade. And it's like, has anything gotten better? No, you guys. So it's like, is this really meaningful in any way? Maybe yes, a little, it, you know, and then kind of, I think on the other side, you've got like people who really want to help and really want to do something, but there's no infrastructure

[00:05:41] [SPEAKER_05] there for them to help in a meaningful way. Like people will hear this and their first reaction, probably not so much my listeners, but would, would, would be like, what is wrong with you? It's like world prevention month, world prevention week. It's like, I get that you're trying to shine a light on something that needs more light shine. So that's a win, but inadvertently doing something else, which I don't have the words for, and I wish I did, but it's such a problem for me. Like,

[00:06:06] [SPEAKER_02] I don't know. Like, what do you, what do you think it like the kind of the harm is?

[00:06:13] [SPEAKER_05] Well, it's a good question. They're not saying the other 11 months, so I don't know if it's a week, the other 51 weeks matter, right? So they're just gathering people and gathering resources and paying special attention to a problem. It's like the Valentine's day thing, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Or like, do we have like world, I guess actually almost all of them do have some sort of week or month or day celebrating breast cancer or diabetes or, so there's something to

[00:06:39] [SPEAKER_05] that, but the very nature of it feels performative and market driven, like marketing driven. I would agree with that. And when that becomes a norm at all, problem is the people at the center of it, aren't the people we want at the center of it.

[00:06:55] [SPEAKER_02] No. Well, and it's like Bell Media, really the organization we think should be heading up the conversation about mental health anywhere. No.

[00:07:05] [SPEAKER_05] Well, right, right, right. Well, they're like a corporate sponsor, I assume.

[00:07:08] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. But it's like, yeah, something they created, right? But it's like, why is it coming from there? Why is it not coming from health organizations and governments and institutions who are monitoring these things, who have the skills and the knowledge to address it and just simply aren't?

[00:07:26] [SPEAKER_05] We could debate for a long time if they do indeed have the skills and the information to address it, but they would be the ones you would point to first as the most likely candidates.

[00:07:38] [SPEAKER_02] But if they should, maybe that's a better word. They may not, but they should.

[00:07:43] [SPEAKER_05] And suicide is so complicated. In one way, it is the simplest thing in the world. It's that someone is in so much pain that you said in their life, like one sentence done. Yeah. But on the other hand, when you're trying to treat it, deal with it, all that, it is not like other things.

[00:07:58] [SPEAKER_02] I have been watching Alone a lot recently.

[00:08:02] [SPEAKER_05] Uh-huh.

[00:08:03] [SPEAKER_02] I don't know why. Something about it just makes me feel better about my life. Yeah, I think probably watching people suffering. I can just walk to my fridge and get food and this person is crying because they haven't had, you know, a snail in five days. So what I was going to say about it though is when I watch that show, it's very much about resources and the contestants talk a lot about not only having the physical abilities and the skills and the,

[00:08:29] [SPEAKER_02] and the strength to do these things, but also the mental fortitude and that is a resource as well. And finding these ways to mentally handle the difficult, like the, the hardship of trying to survive with so few resources is unbelievable. But for some reason, we can't understand that when we look at just the general population, we're having the same issue with resource availability.

[00:08:55] [SPEAKER_05] And do you know why I believe that tends to be the case?

[00:08:58] [SPEAKER_02] I do not.

[00:08:59] [SPEAKER_05] Because it's your fault. You could have gone to another doctor. You could have tried medication. You could have tried walking around the block, but you didn't.

[00:09:06] [SPEAKER_01] Mm-hmm.

[00:09:07] [SPEAKER_05] Your fault. And where is most of the messaging towards suicide attempt in the suicide attempt world? It is at Carolyn. It's not at the people around Carolyn who might be able to be supportive, who have no idea how to do it. How did you find the podcast? One in which most people wouldn't look for?

[00:09:24] [SPEAKER_02] So yeah, I, I think I did what I now know many people have done having listened to quite a few episodes, which is just Google or like search it, sorry, suicide and Spotify.

[00:09:34] [SPEAKER_05] Let me ask you a question I've never asked anybody. Let's say I did a special series. It is just one person over one month. We talk three times a week. I'm kind of making these numbers up. This person, we start on the first of the month and their plan is to end their lives on the 31st. I want to give them an opportunity to share their month as they go through the planning, as they go through the contemplation of it, as they go through the little things people might not think

[00:09:59] [SPEAKER_05] about, about making sure their dog's okay or how they might communicate it. I think that's one fucking amazing idea, but is it wrong of me?

[00:10:09] [SPEAKER_02] Here's the thing.

[00:10:10] [SPEAKER_05] Yeah. I love it when it starts with here's the thing.

[00:10:13] [SPEAKER_02] I'm a PSW. So I deal with a lot of people who are palliative and what a lot of people don't understand about palliative care is that it starts the minute you start to lose functionality that you are not going to regain. So it's not like, okay, somebody's a few weeks or a few months or even like a year from death or they have an illness we know is going to kill them or things. It doesn't have to be any of those things. The term is much broader than that. And a lot of people who

[00:10:41] [SPEAKER_02] fall into that category, as they start to lose function, they start to lose things. They may refuse food. There's all sorts of things that they may do. And as a caregiver, what we are taught is that we don't force them to live. It is their choice. It is all about their choice. So we support them, we treat them, we report. So if somebody is talking about suicide and that kind of stuff,

[00:11:05] [SPEAKER_02] we have to report it, obviously. But at the end of the day, if somebody is dying, they get to choose the manner in which that happens. And so I think for me, from my work and my life, that is just a way that I approach the world generally. So my view on that is if that person is comfortable with it and they're in their right mind and they're making that choice and you're just cataloging it, I don't

[00:11:29] [SPEAKER_05] see a moral issue with that. Some people would question if they're not in their right mind no

[00:11:34] [SPEAKER_02] matter what. That's true. At the end of the day, if that person wants help and they want to live, if anything, you being there talking to them three times a week is going to do more for their mental health than calling the cops to say, hey, this person's suicidal or calling a hospital or whatever.

[00:11:52] [SPEAKER_05] Yeah. Preaching to the choir.

[00:11:54] [SPEAKER_02] Even if you're not palliative, our job is just always, it's like the focus, they call it like patient-centered care. And it's kind of incredible to me that in healthcare, we know that this is the right way to treat people, to respect their wishes, to respect their traditions, to respect who they are and what they want. But when we look outside of that or when we move to something like suicide,

[00:12:19] [SPEAKER_02] we decide, okay, you no longer have a choice. They're not assisting with suicide or anything like that. It's just your choice.

[00:12:27] [SPEAKER_05] Non-palliative care that takes an open approach.

[00:12:29] [SPEAKER_02] Yes. And honestly, if somebody wanted to like stop eating, you couldn't force feed them.

[00:12:34] [SPEAKER_05] So the moment we're born, we start dying. However, we're growing to a point, our brains, I think about 25, the body starts to change. There's an age in which you are no longer, yes, I know the brain is maybe elastic.

[00:12:52] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:12:53] [SPEAKER_05] Where you're essentially going downhill.

[00:12:55] [SPEAKER_01] Mm-hmm.

[00:12:56] [SPEAKER_05] Isn't that the point where palliative care could start? Yeah. And if that's the case and the way you approach it is patient-centered, you're saying you're going to honor the wishes of the person, but you're not going to aid them in their own suicide. No. But then it's so you're saying we'll let you die naturally. I mean, there's going to be some exceptions if someone's in chronic pain, they might be made available.

[00:13:17] [SPEAKER_02] Well, and there is, yeah, there is that in Canada for certain conditions, absolutely. But it's not expansive to just people who are like, you know, I am in so much mental pain, I want to die, that kind of thing. And I guess what I mean by that is-

[00:13:31] [SPEAKER_05] But you don't know, you can't measure that as easily and no one can, but it's very possible that pain surpasses a lot of people's chronic physical pain.

[00:13:39] [SPEAKER_02] Absolutely. And well, that's the other thing too, right? Is like we know just from like psychology, like studies that they've done recently, that emotional pain is far more damaging to the human psyche than physical pain. As far as that goes, I do not think that healthcare and all of that is where it needs to be. But I do think that in my job, I have seen more of an institutional

[00:14:04] [SPEAKER_02] agreement about how we treat people in that regard than I've seen in many other spaces.

[00:14:11] [SPEAKER_04] Do you think there's a cabal?

[00:14:13] [SPEAKER_02] No, I do not. I think a lot of these people are selfish, rich narcissists.

[00:14:19] [SPEAKER_05] And not even bright enough to necessarily coordinate a cabal.

[00:14:22] [SPEAKER_02] No, and nor maybe cooperative enough, because a lot of them I think are just too selfish for that. They're just too self-interested to work with other people very well for very long. So, you know, I'm sure there's some of that and there absolutely is. You know, I think we live in a world with a lot of corruption and a lot of evil people. I feel like a lot of them just see us as like, yeah, an opportunity to make money, labor. They don't see us as people. They just were just little ants that they can step on at their will.

[00:14:52] [SPEAKER_05] A year or two ago, there was a guy in New York City, I know you know the case. He decided to shoot and kill the, I believe, CEO of a very, very major healthcare company.

[00:15:01] [SPEAKER_02] Mm-hmm.

[00:15:01] [SPEAKER_05] What was your gut reaction when you heard that?

[00:15:04] [SPEAKER_02] Celebration.

[00:15:06] [SPEAKER_05] Can we keep that in the podcast?

[00:15:07] [SPEAKER_02] Yep. Yes, you can.

[00:15:09] [SPEAKER_05] Now, Carolyn, I-

[00:15:10] [SPEAKER_02] You want to know why? Yeah, I do. Because that kid was suffering from horrible, horrible physical pain, and those insurance companies are absolutely disgustingly predatory. The way that they take advantage of working class sick people is disgusting.

[00:15:25] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, yeah.

[00:15:25] [SPEAKER_02] And he was direct to that. And as much as I believe in justice, and I don't think that he ever would have received it. Yeah.

[00:15:33] [SPEAKER_05] So, like, it almost forces this sort of vigilante type of- Yeah. So, no one's going to say, yeah, go out and kill people?

[00:15:40] [SPEAKER_01] No.

[00:15:41] [SPEAKER_05] Well, I mean, there's probably a few that would say that, but most wouldn't. But I felt the same way you did. Yeah. And they could say, you know, this guy, Sean, he was probably about your age. He had a wife. He had two kids. I know it's not okay, but what was my gut reaction?

[00:15:55] [SPEAKER_01] Mm-hmm.

[00:15:55] [SPEAKER_05] My gut reaction was, fuck you.

[00:15:58] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:15:58] [SPEAKER_05] Do a way better job, and you would not have gotten shot.

[00:16:02] [SPEAKER_02] I think it is exhausting to see what people like that and organizations like that get away with over and over again. We saw it in 2008. And yeah, we continue to see it, that they just evade responsibility.

[00:16:20] [SPEAKER_05] Because, you know, number one is profit, number two is whatever else it is, and it's probably far behind number one. And it's true. Now, there are organizations, probably smaller ones, that do great. Mm-hmm.

[00:16:31] [SPEAKER_02] I think that there are absolutely good companies, good businesses out there, but the ones that are not good seem to squeeze out everybody else.

[00:16:39] [SPEAKER_05] Have you tried to kill yourself?

[00:16:41] [SPEAKER_02] No.

[00:16:42] [SPEAKER_05] You're an ideator.

[00:16:43] [SPEAKER_02] I am a chronic ideator, yeah.

[00:16:45] [SPEAKER_05] So how old are you?

[00:16:47] [SPEAKER_02] I am 34. I'm going to be 35 in less than a month.

[00:16:51] [SPEAKER_05] When did you start thinking about killing yourself or ideating? Let us use that word.

[00:16:56] [SPEAKER_02] I honestly don't know exactly. I think, like, when I was young, it more just lived as this desire to disappear. And yeah, I was a hider.

[00:17:07] [SPEAKER_05] I've never heard of that before. What does that mean?

[00:17:09] [SPEAKER_02] Well, I just, like, I liked to read, and I would just go find... I had a big family, and I would just go find places. Like, I fell asleep in a closet a couple times. I think the cops got called on me a couple times just from... because no one could find me.

[00:17:24] [SPEAKER_05] So back then, wanting to disappear, when did the thoughts get stronger?

[00:17:28] [SPEAKER_02] Probably when they started to get really bad was when I went to... I did a year of university. Well, I didn't even do the whole year. You know, London, Ontario, Western. And I just... I didn't really have any friends there. I was already really shy and introverted. I was going to university a few years later, so I was a little older than other people there, which made me feel out of place. And I think, yeah, I didn't have a lot of money. It just all got to be a lot for me. And then I found,

[00:17:57] [SPEAKER_02] like, I was struggling with my classes and things like that. And if I had untreated ADHD, that makes sense. Because I've tried to do post-secondary several times without success. So... but at this point, I have my PSW certificate, and I have a two-year business accounting diploma. So, yeah, it took me, like, seven years to do it, but I didn't.

[00:18:17] [SPEAKER_05] Might that just show us that you didn't quit?

[00:18:20] [SPEAKER_02] I did not.

[00:18:21] [SPEAKER_05] Right. We don't like quitters. You know what some people would call suicide attempt-ers? Quitters.

[00:18:29] [SPEAKER_02] I have quit a lot of things in my life, and I think some people should be better at quitting things, so...

[00:18:36] [SPEAKER_05] Ditto, ditto. Like, quitting smoking is good.

[00:18:39] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, or like quitting a bad job or a bad relationship.

[00:18:43] [SPEAKER_05] Or quitting life?

[00:18:44] [SPEAKER_02] If it sucks, maybe.

[00:18:46] [SPEAKER_05] You know, some people would never agree with you.

[00:18:48] [SPEAKER_02] I know that. I was raised by two of them.

[00:18:52] [SPEAKER_05] So, ideating a lot. What stops you when things get bad from making a plan? Or maybe you did.

[00:18:59] [SPEAKER_02] So, at one point, I did make a plan, and that was about the worst it had ever gotten. For a long time, my religious beliefs were a thing that stopped me. I wasn't Christian up until I was about 23, 24 years old. Okay. Jesus free for over a decade.

[00:19:15] [SPEAKER_05] All right. What am I thinking?

[00:19:16] [SPEAKER_02] Stop moving.

[00:19:17] [SPEAKER_05] No.

[00:19:18] No.

[00:19:19] [SPEAKER_05] I've been telling Carolyn to stop fidgeting because the mic will pick it up.

[00:19:24] [SPEAKER_02] Really bad fidgeting.

[00:19:25] [SPEAKER_05] Jesus freak for a decade. Not the winner, but what could it be?

[00:19:30] [SPEAKER_02] Oh, my title.

[00:19:31] [SPEAKER_05] Just alone, Jesus free, says a lot, and it also rolls off the tongue nicely.

[00:19:36] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. It's also like former Jesus freak. There's a lot of things you could do.

[00:19:41] [SPEAKER_05] Oh, my God. So, from freak to free? Oh, my God. Some magic happened there. Then I'm quitting my role. When did it get bad enough that you started planning? Do you remember how old you were?

[00:19:53] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. That was just a couple years ago. 32, 33.

[00:19:57] [SPEAKER_05] So, several years after you went from freak to free?

[00:20:00] [SPEAKER_02] Oh, yeah.

[00:20:01] [SPEAKER_05] You were Jesus freak or just you were a Christian?

[00:20:03] [SPEAKER_02] I felt very strongly about my faith. I think that's one of the reasons why I struggled with being a part of the community is because I was so like, this is what Christianity is and you guys aren't doing it. What's going on?

[00:20:17] [SPEAKER_05] You're talking about the difference of the way many Christians and often the institutions they belong to or let's say churches and the way one should live if they're a Christian.

[00:20:29] [SPEAKER_02] To be fair, like there's a lot of nonsense in the Bible. So, I understand why Christians are the way they are or like why they believe what they believe because, you know, there's a lot more than just the teachings of Jesus. But if you're a Christian, you're calling yourself a Christian, Christ is right in there, a follower of Jesus. So, if that is the case, you're a follower of Jesus, that's how you identify yourself. Shouldn't that be like his teachings be like the most important thing in the Bible to you?

[00:20:58] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:20:59] [SPEAKER_02] That you live by, that you hold, you know, near and dear? And that just wasn't my experience, but I was, you know, part of a fundamentalist churches. So, that makes all the difference too.

[00:21:10] [SPEAKER_05] If someone's living by the way Jesus lived, what are a few things they should absolutely be doing or perhaps not doing? Period.

[00:21:20] [SPEAKER_02] I mean, loving people is a big one. So.

[00:21:24] [SPEAKER_05] It's a little abstract, but okay, go on. Thou shalt not steal is very specific.

[00:21:29] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, but Jesus didn't. I don't know that Jesus said that. He might have.

[00:21:32] [SPEAKER_05] Might have. Could you imagine if Jesus was just stealing a bunch of shit the whole time? He's like, I didn't write that. I didn't put that in there.

[00:21:39] [SPEAKER_02] Well, they should be flipping tables in temples. So, they should be doing that. All of the people who are trying to profit off of religion, they should be holding those people accountable.

[00:21:50] [SPEAKER_05] And hey, if you're out there and you're stealing food from restaurants to feed the poor, you got my support. Robin Hood, love it. I mean, you know, the restaurant owners won't like me and a lot of people might not. I got it. I am so over being liked. Not that there was a huge fan base to begin with. But like, you know what I'm saying? Like, so what does Jesus ask us to do?

[00:22:10] [SPEAKER_02] Seating and clothing the poor and the hungry, like welcoming the stranger. Like there are all of these things that were teachings of Jesus that are completely antithetical to the Christian nationalist, like fundamentalist movement.

[00:22:24] [SPEAKER_05] Okay. So, right now, Jesus is looking at the way we handle people who are suicidal. And he's seeing, I don't know, all the stuff that's out there and how some people get treated and some probably get treated very well and humanely. But we know some don't. So, he sees the way 988 handles some calls. He sees the way the police get involved. He sees the way the psych units often, often not always treat people. And he sees some of the care afterwards. What do you, what do you, what he's looking at all of it? And he's like, what do you think he's thinking?

[00:22:52] [SPEAKER_02] Oh, I don't think he'd be impressed.

[00:22:54] [SPEAKER_05] It's okay. Yeah.

[00:22:55] [SPEAKER_02] He was a radical and I firmly believe a socialist because his values aligned with socialist values completely.

[00:23:03] [SPEAKER_05] Do you think that Jesus would condone suicide?

[00:23:07] [SPEAKER_02] I don't know. I can't speak to that. I honestly, I don't know that that is something he talks about really.

[00:23:14] [SPEAKER_05] That's why we're talking about it.

[00:23:16] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. But I do think that, you know, based on his teachings or whatever, that what would be in line with that is to treat people with compassion and care. And obviously we do not do that. So whether or not you agree with suicide or not, the core of it is like, are we treating people with humanity? And I do not believe that we are.

[00:23:37] [SPEAKER_05] Also, by the way, Carolyn, we're talking about suicide. You're not supposed to laugh. Safe, safe messaging.

[00:23:42] [SPEAKER_02] It's going to be a problem. We're going to have to stop this podcast right now.

[00:23:45] [SPEAKER_05] I do not want to trigger Carolyn. And we have to be safe messaging. So moving forward, let's use unalive and not suicide. Can we agree on that? Let's go.

[00:23:54] [SPEAKER_02] Only if we're changing the rules of the podcast.

[00:23:57] [SPEAKER_05] Yeah, radically. But we're talking about radical acts, me, you, and Jesus. It's a weird trifecta of change. Why'd you quit at 24?

[00:24:08] [SPEAKER_02] I realized how much it was harming me. And just like all these messages, because the thing is, is like, like when, when people talk about cults and like how all of that works, that was very much the way that I viewed the world was shaped by my Christianity when I was young in a way that like was very hard for me to untangle as an adult. It's just like, it changes the way that you look at the world, the way that you think about things, the way

[00:24:35] [SPEAKER_02] that you view yourself. And a lot of my issues came from the way that the church, and it's not even necessarily what's in the Bible, but that community, the way that they handle mental health issues, right? And, and, or any issues really, like my mom still believes that my brother, so I have a younger brother who is diagnosed with schizophrenia and he has struggled with it for

[00:24:59] [SPEAKER_02] over a decade now and had repeated episodes, that kind of stuff. My mom has been like one of the main people responsible for him. And she still believes that him smoking weed and watching porn when he was a teenager, um, had like some satanic influence on him, which led to his schizophrenia.

[00:25:20] [SPEAKER_05] Is that so not easily disprovable? Do you know how many teenagers are watching porn and smoking weed

[00:25:27] [SPEAKER_02] She believes the man came back from the dead, Sean. Well, that's what Jesus did, didn't he? If you believe that, what else would you believe? What else could you believe, right? To be fair, weed, I think there is like a connection between people smoking a lot of weed when they're young and not triggering, but often it's people who are already genetically predisposed. And there's often other factors as well. Um, at least from what I've, why, what I've read about it. So yeah,

[00:25:53] [SPEAKER_03] anybody who's listening heavily fact check me. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Fact check me too. I don't even,

[00:26:00] [SPEAKER_02] minor more opinions, opinion check me. But she thinks like, like porn, scary movies, like that kind of stuff. Like it just like that. It puts like some kind of darkness in your head or

[00:26:10] [SPEAKER_05] like, yeah, let's the devil in. What do we call people who put in motion the end of someone's life by ignoring them? Yeah. By not listening well. Yeah. By doing all the things they do to make someone's life not easier and often harder. What are we calling them? The Antichrist wouldn't be the right word. We got to come up with something with that. And then I'm writing a fucking manifesto.

[00:26:38] [SPEAKER_05] And oh, by the way, if you're listening, you might, you're probably not one of them because you're a listener, but they're out there and it's not a cabal. They don't even realize they're doing it. They're just doing it. They probably think they're doing good. That's what makes it impossible to stop. Cause they're like, I'm really helping. Antichrist people, like they think they're doing good work. A hundred percent. Do you think now at almost 36, you are free of it entirely? No.

[00:27:04] [SPEAKER_02] Oh, it's that takes a long time. Oh yeah. Cause it's like, it's ingrained in you. Like I said, like, it's just like when you think about how the brain works, right? It was like all of that change and development from the time you're born to the time you're 25. During all of those years, I am being sent these messages about women's place in society, about yeah, how I should be living, about modesty, about selflessness, all of these things, which a lot of Christians don't actually

[00:27:31] [SPEAKER_02] live by. But me being the person I am, I'm like, take it all on myself. And then because of the mental health issues or my personal struggles or just being a human person, you cannot meet those impossible standards. And all it does is just soak you in shame. And I think if you've ever met anybody who's left the church, they will, that is one of, I think maybe the biggest, biggest things that you have to contend with is all of the shame.

[00:27:59] [SPEAKER_05] The other thing that comes to mind, well, there's actually two things. You lose your community. That alone can kill you.

[00:28:07] [SPEAKER_01] Yep.

[00:28:08] [SPEAKER_05] You also lost something you believed in. So you lost your faith.

[00:28:14] [SPEAKER_02] I miss it sometimes. I miss that sometimes. And sometimes I wish like, man, I wish I still believed in God. And I had that because for a lot of people, that is something that is strengthens them, you know what I mean? And it may push them, you know, in directions that are not good, but it still allows them to weather the difficult moments in life.

[00:28:37] [SPEAKER_05] I have said this several times that I envy people with faith.

[00:28:41] [SPEAKER_01] Yep.

[00:28:42] [SPEAKER_05] Like full stop. So, so much so that I would, I would, I like the perfect candidate to be a cult member. I'm not talking like some people might say, well, Christianity is a cult. No, no, no. I'm talking about a fucking weird cult. Like I'm not easily influenced in that way. I would just, I would just join it.

[00:29:03] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:29:03] [SPEAKER_05] Like you don't need to influence me with pretty women or anything. I just knock on your door. I'd be like, I want part of this. Yeah. I don't even know exactly what you do, but it just seems like you got to get nice community and I'm really lonely and I'm in. What are the dues?

[00:29:21] [SPEAKER_02] I, I, I imagine that once you find some, like they will be very happy to have you.

[00:29:27] [SPEAKER_03] But I mean, what's a family?

[00:29:28] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. Well, exactly. Right. So interesting thing about that. That's what, that is very interesting. I was listening to a different, a different podcast, uh, Trevor Noah interviews. His name is Dr. Steven Hassan. Um, and he is a cult expert. And so they're talking about the features of cults, right? Like how they're very like the order is hierarchical. So it's like whoever's at the top, what they say goes, whatever. And then either Trevor or his

[00:29:56] [SPEAKER_02] friend who's like a co-host is like, that sounds like my mother. They're like, can families be a cult? And he's like, absolutely. Yes. I know. He's got this criteria, right? Where he's like, you know, and he's like, there are like safe cults and there are dangerous cults. And basically it's the level of control imposed on the people in it that determines whether it is like safe or not.

[00:30:18] [SPEAKER_05] Um, so in your twenties, you're, you're getting out of it. Yeah. I know you get through some schooling. You're living up, uh, you're up there in Canada, we say up there in Canada, we say.

[00:30:29] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. So I'm, I moved around quite a bit when I graduated high school. Um, my intention was to go to school to, uh, take English and I wanted to be an English teacher. Um, my parents sat me down like my 12th grade year, I think, and asked me, you know, what are you, what are your plans for next year? And I was like, well, I'm going to, my plan is to go to university for English. And they're like, yeah, no, that's a terrible idea. You shouldn't do that. Um, what was the reasoning

[00:30:56] [SPEAKER_02] behind that? So my older sister had gone and they were just basically like, you're not going to be able to get a job. So you just shouldn't do it. As a teacher? Yeah. Which like maybe not right away, but I think I would have been able to get one eventually. And if not, I could have gone to something else. Like, I just feel like they should have just been like, okay, do it. I really did not trust myself. I didn't trust my own ability to make decisions and to make good decisions. Um,

[00:31:24] [SPEAKER_02] I was not very confident. And so I was like, okay, if you guys think it's a bad idea, it must be a bad idea. And I'm not going to do that. And so I spent the next six or seven years kind of like floating around trying to figure out what to do. I went to Bible college is a loose term, a leadership program. Even that is, is, is generous, but I went to like a Bible program in Florida for a couple of years when I was 19. And that definitely started my road to getting away from Christianity.

[00:31:52] [SPEAKER_05] But if, if, if, if studying English to be an English teacher, isn't going to get you a job, how would those things get you a job?

[00:31:58] [SPEAKER_02] Well, so my dad actually was really angry that I was going to do that because my dad is Catholic, not, not serious about it. Really? He believes abortion is wrong and he, you know, has strong ethics about many things. And that's about as far as it goes. And my older sister had gone and got a lot out of it. My mom, you know, who thinks that like going to do that kind of stuff is like the best thing you can possibly do with your life. Like really, really pushed me to go.

[00:32:26] [SPEAKER_05] Travel, see the world, learn things.

[00:32:28] [SPEAKER_02] Uh, no, go to a church, be around other good Christian people, learn how to be a good Christian girl and come back and be a good Christian worker and a good Christian wife. Wife was the word I was waiting for. Yeah, no, to be fair, my mom has never pushed that that much with me, maybe because she thinks like I'm all, it's almost offensive actually, because she's tried to set up a lot of my other single siblings over the years. And I'm like, I think she just thinks I'm undateable.

[00:32:55] [SPEAKER_05] Now, let me ask you a question that might be a little sensitive. We talked about family dynamics and cult leaders in your family.

[00:33:02] [SPEAKER_02] Is my mom the cult leader? Yes.

[00:33:04] [SPEAKER_05] I mean, I wasn't going to say it.

[00:33:06] [SPEAKER_02] Listen, I, I love my mom. We have a very...

[00:33:10] [SPEAKER_05] As do cult members love their cult leader.

[00:33:12] [SPEAKER_02] Indeed. But I will say like my mom, she's not a terrible person. She loves her kids very deeply. She will, if I was in trouble, if I was like hurt or whatever, you know, maybe not with my mental health, but like, you know, in a, in a way that she understood as hurt, she would, she would move mountains.

[00:33:33] [SPEAKER_05] Yeah. Yeah. Okay. We were not going to do the thing where it's like black or white. We're not doing that. That's not how most of it ever, ever works. As growing up, what you eventually learned was ADHD. Now, like you're looking back, how does that affect your schooling in your twenties before you were medicated?

[00:33:50] [SPEAKER_02] Oh yeah. No, it was the reason why I couldn't do anything and why I struggled so much. And it's interesting because I, even before I got that diagnosis, there was like something, I kind of part of how I came to it is, is the feeling that would come every time I would ideate or like get to the point where I was going to ideate, which was just like a feeling of overwhelm. Like I can't do this. Like, how does anybody do this? I can't even manage

[00:34:20] [SPEAKER_02] the simplest things. I'm such a piece of shit. I, yeah, I don't even want to be alive because life is too fucking hard and I'm miserable in it. And I think it would just come after these failures often. Right. So like dropping, having to drop out of university and like all, every time I would try to accomplish something that I wanted to accomplish and feel good about it and excited and like, okay, I'm going to be able to do this. But then it, I would hit a wall and just be like, and it's like all the plates would just drop to the floor and

[00:34:47] [SPEAKER_02] crash again. Yeah. You get a little more, a little more disheartened, a little more disheartened, a little more desperate. Yep. A hundred percent. And yeah. And so it was like, I, you know, I probably go through one or two of those cycles every year at least. Um, and it would just, and then it would, there would be more and it would get worse, you know, and the ideating would get more frequent and yeah, like it just, you know, kind of thing you're driving. I could drive off this bridge right now. What would happen if I jumped into that freezing lake or like,

[00:35:17] [SPEAKER_02] drink a little bit of whiskey and go sit out in the snow? What would happen?

[00:35:20] [SPEAKER_05] Of all the ways.

[00:35:22] [SPEAKER_02] Hey, actually, I don't know about that. You would be drunk. So you would feel great. And then you would just, you know,

[00:35:32] [SPEAKER_05] I don't, I don't know. I've, I've been close to being frostbitten. It's not great.

[00:35:37] [SPEAKER_02] Listen, this is why I haven't done it. Okay.

[00:35:39] [SPEAKER_05] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like, but we know, we know, I'll ask you about the pink and purple pill. Oh, we know if that shit was available. Oh yeah. I'm telling you, I'm telling you if that pill was available, I think one in 10 to 15 people take it in the world. That's my guess.

[00:35:53] [SPEAKER_02] Yep. And for me, like it wasn't an, I think probably the reason why it wasn't until a couple of years ago that I actually made a plan was because it wasn't until a couple of years ago that I finally got to a point where I was in so much pain and no longer felt guilty about the people that I would leave behind. And I think also kind of got to a point where I was realizing in a lot of ways,

[00:36:18] [SPEAKER_02] how much my parents and certain people in my family failing me when I was young and then blaming me for the problems that created as an adult really harmed me, made me feel terrible about myself. And so I think kind of coming to terms with that, I, I didn't feel the obligation to my family that I used to feel when it came to that and like how much that would hurt them all.

[00:36:43] [SPEAKER_05] I wonder, I wonder the percentage of people, if we see a spike in suicides once a parent dies.

[00:36:49] [SPEAKER_02] Probably. I mean, I've heard there are people who are like, I waited until my pet died or I'm going to wait until this, you know, like whether or not people do it that way. I know a lot of people who like talk about it will say that.

[00:37:01] [SPEAKER_05] I was also thinking that I think, I don't, there's probably no data on this, but I wouldn't be surprised if there's a slight spike in suicides when you get the bill in the United States after getting out of a psych unit that day. It's like all of a sudden you're out, life isn't any different and you get a $15,000 bill. What would Jesus say about that?

[00:37:19] [SPEAKER_02] Not good things.

[00:37:21] [SPEAKER_05] They're billing. He would be like, you're charging them money?

[00:37:23] [SPEAKER_02] Oh yeah. Yeah, no, he would, he would be in there flipping tables, I think.

[00:37:28] [SPEAKER_05] So what, how close did you come? You said you were 33?

[00:37:32] [SPEAKER_02] As close as just like writing out a list, giving myself a timeline. These are all the things that I need to do to get my things in order before that happens, you know, to make sure that like basically this is causing as little hardship for other people as possible because that is not what I would want. I would not want to create difficulty for other people if I was to do that.

[00:37:56] [SPEAKER_05] What was the plan?

[00:37:56] [SPEAKER_02] Find a certain dose of a certain drug, figured out how to do it online and basically, yeah, way more than I would need. And yeah, I was gonna just like make sure all of my stuff, all of my affairs were in order, go find like a really nice cabin and stay there for a week, you know, and yeah.

[00:38:17] [SPEAKER_04] Oh, that would be an interesting week.

[00:38:20] [SPEAKER_02] Just like, I think I just would want to be somewhere beautiful, like, you know, and peaceful. No, no, no.

[00:38:28] [SPEAKER_05] So what shifts, do you remember?

[00:38:30] [SPEAKER_02] I mean, the thing is, is like it goes in and out for me, right? And because I now know that like a lot of my suicidal ideation is related to untreated, like ADHD, and I also think probably some autism as well, just because I very much relate to a lot of the like kind of symptoms and experiences around like ADHD is like kind of like the shorthand for it. Yeah, I think that

[00:38:56] [SPEAKER_02] that has very much been the root of my suicidal ideation and my desire to die for so long. And so starting to treat that and manage it has been huge for me. But throughout my life before that, before it was getting treated, a lot of times I would get relief when my life would get a little easier in some way, or like I would have less responsibility, just like something that would shift so that I didn't feel so overwhelmed without me realizing it. And I'm like, oh, I'm feeling

[00:39:25] [SPEAKER_02] better. I'm feeling good without making that connection about why I was feeling good because I didn't know what was wrong with me. So yeah, so there could be points where I would get to the point of planning, but then not do anything further because my life got a little better and then I just didn't come back to it. But I think had I not gotten treatment, I would have kept coming back to it and it would have gotten worse and I would have gone further for sure. I couldn't take it. I remember that, you know, I don't remember

[00:39:51] [SPEAKER_02] exactly how it feels to be in that moment. It's kind of hard to put yourself back there when you're not in it. But you get to the point where you're just like, I can't handle this anymore. It's like constant mental anguish. Like I cannot get out of my own head and it's horrible.

[00:40:06] [SPEAKER_05] When did you start getting involved in healthcare as a job?

[00:40:09] [SPEAKER_02] My current boyfriend, when he and I met...

[00:40:12] [SPEAKER_05] The one that your mom did not set you up with?

[00:40:14] [SPEAKER_02] No. She would never. Which is why I love him.

[00:40:19] [SPEAKER_05] What makes him so different that she would never?

[00:40:21] [SPEAKER_02] Oh, he's just, he's not a Christian. He has tattoos. He swears. He smokes like he used to do drugs. He's very liberal. He's like, yeah, like the complete antithesis of anything that she would

[00:40:34] [SPEAKER_04] approve of. And the antithesis of anybody you'd probably be attracted to.

[00:40:39] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. Well, and that's kind of like, I'm like, it's good that she's never set me up with anybody because I would never like anybody that she would set me up with.

[00:40:46] [SPEAKER_05] Just be like, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope. And even just imagining that hour date at the diner, just sitting there being like, Jesus.

[00:40:56] [SPEAKER_02] Oh no, it wouldn't be an hour.

[00:40:58] [SPEAKER_05] Christian Carolyn is not going to just walk out on somebody.

[00:41:00] [SPEAKER_02] Christian Carolyn wouldn't, I don't think would have gone on a date in the first place. Okay. Because I thought a lot of Christian dudes were like fake and liars, which they were. But also, yeah, I think I was just too self-conscious for that. Like I didn't even start dating till like I was in like my mid twenties.

[00:41:20] [SPEAKER_05] Yeah. So the original question was, how'd you get into the field?

[00:41:23] [SPEAKER_02] Dating Max. And he was taking care of his grandmother who had Alzheimer's. We kept dating for quite a while and I moved in. And then at some point, you know, we were making future plans and he wanted to go back to school for like he was interested in woodworking. So I was like, well, why don't you go to school for that? I can take care of her. And so we did that. And just in taking care of her, I think I realized that I had a capacity for something that I was not aware of before.

[00:41:49] [SPEAKER_02] I really did not ever see myself as a people person or somebody who would be good at doing that. And having that experience made me realize that I was and I enjoyed it. And yeah. And so I went when it was time for me to go back to work, I went, got a job as a PSW or HSW to start. And then I trained to get my PSW credentials.

[00:42:11] [SPEAKER_05] What does that stand for?

[00:42:12] [SPEAKER_02] Personal support worker.

[00:42:14] [SPEAKER_05] I think every human needs a personal support worker. I think they call them friends. I'm not sure. I think there's a word for it. It's something I'm not that familiar with. They're just called friends, Sean.

[00:42:24] [SPEAKER_02] Well, do your friends wipe your ass? I know, I know. The friends don't wipe mine.

[00:42:30] [SPEAKER_05] I'm sure there's a lot more to it than just that. I know.

[00:42:33] [SPEAKER_02] Well, there absolutely is. But that's what most people know about my job.

[00:42:38] [SPEAKER_05] So on meds, working a job, it seems like you like, is Max still in the picture?

[00:42:43] [SPEAKER_02] Yes. Yeah. For a time. We broke up and got back together. So yes, he's.

[00:42:47] [SPEAKER_05] Okay. Hey, Max.

[00:42:49] [SPEAKER_02] I thought we were doing a timeline thing here.

[00:42:52] [SPEAKER_05] So do you ever ideate now?

[00:42:54] [SPEAKER_02] I haven't in the last couple weeks, but yeah, occasionally.

[00:42:57] [SPEAKER_05] Okay. So we first talked a few months ago, at least. You did. You were sometimes ideating. So is it a meds difference or what happened?

[00:43:05] [SPEAKER_02] Well, I actually, so July 6th, I had like a fall and I hurt my knee and my ankle. So I was off work for like a month. It was stressful at first because of the financial aspect of that. But thankfully, we have workers or like employment insurance. So I was able to get that. And it's not as much as you would be making, but it was enough to get by. And just during that time, I was forced to be

[00:43:31] [SPEAKER_02] off my feet, like not doing things, just resting. And that has done wonders for my mental well-being. Also, I've like been reading a lot more about ADHD and ADHD and just how to manage it better day to day. And so I'm trying to make changes in my life that make it less likely that I will feel overwhelmed and depressed and anxious and all of those things. And I still do, you know, like it's the nature of being

[00:43:57] [SPEAKER_02] in the world. You know, I don't make a great income or, you know, we're, we live close to the margins and, you know, we're trying not to, but that can be stressful. And, you know, we're not the only ones. Life is getting harder for a lot of people just with cost of living.

[00:44:11] [SPEAKER_05] I'm not necessarily saying it should be getting easier, but outside of some sort of like natural catastrophe.

[00:44:17] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:44:17] [SPEAKER_05] How can it be getting worse? The only thing I can think of that would make it get worse naturally is just there's more people per square mile living somewhere. Like just the birth rate goes higher. I don't think that's the case, by the way. You can fact check me on that, but like those are, those are choices that people are making power.

[00:44:34] [SPEAKER_02] Oh yeah. No, it's, it's, it's a thing that like I have to have a dedicated time to be fucking pissed off about because it makes me so fucking angry every day.

[00:44:45] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah.

[00:44:46] [SPEAKER_02] And especially I think like my brother just seeing, you know, because he's like the most extreme case, seeing what he went through with his mental health and still goes through and like the lack of support, the lack of really anything to help him is, is unbelievable. And it makes me sick. And it's so, there is nothing worse than watching people you love suffer when they don't have to, because there's some assholes in power who just don't give a fuck.

[00:45:12] [SPEAKER_05] You know what the majority of them probably are? Christian.

[00:45:16] [SPEAKER_02] This I know.

[00:45:18] [SPEAKER_05] That's by numbers. Chances are majority of those people, and they probably go to church most Sundays.

[00:45:23] [SPEAKER_02] That a lot of them do.

[00:45:25] [SPEAKER_05] But a lot, I bet you met a lot of them.

[00:45:26] [SPEAKER_02] Oh yeah. Well, no one was in Florida. Like I was at a very big, like mega church. Oh yeah.

[00:45:31] [SPEAKER_05] Just those two words together. But something makes me feel weird.

[00:45:35] [SPEAKER_02] It should. That's a good response. That's the right response.

[00:45:38] [SPEAKER_04] Can I get a Jesus freak? Amen, baby. Amen. Let's go.

[00:45:44] [SPEAKER_02] As I've been watching like some of the politicians in the States, because like now that there's like a lot of like democratic socialists running in different races and the speeches, some of them give, I'm like, I feel like I'm back at church.

[00:45:55] [SPEAKER_05] Amen. As far as listening to speeches or people, how often do you listen to this podcast?

[00:46:01] [SPEAKER_02] Uh, recently I haven't listened to it as much. I'll like listen to like 20 of them.

[00:46:06] [SPEAKER_01] Oh, okay.

[00:46:07] [SPEAKER_02] You know, like all in a row and then I'll take a break for a few months and I'll come back and I'll listen to like 15 more. I, I'm bad for that. I know I, that's just how I consume things. It's the ADHD. I get focused on something and I really, and then that's it.

[00:46:20] [SPEAKER_05] I'm just asking you to be permanently focused on my fucking podcast. Okay.

[00:46:24] [SPEAKER_02] If I only had autism, I could, but the ADHD.

[00:46:27] [SPEAKER_05] I would be surprised if I was the only podcast most people listen to. Like you need some balance. You can't have all this stuff. No way.

[00:46:34] [SPEAKER_02] Also, I just listened to a ton. Like, so it's like, for me, it's a, it's a both and thing.

[00:46:38] [SPEAKER_05] How many people know we're talking?

[00:46:40] [SPEAKER_02] Uh, just max.

[00:46:41] [SPEAKER_05] Um, does he know everything about your mental health struggles?

[00:46:44] [SPEAKER_02] He does. He didn't always.

[00:46:46] [SPEAKER_05] Does he know about the cabin?

[00:46:48] [SPEAKER_02] Well, no, not, not specifics, but I also think like you can't put all of that on your, on your partner, you know, like some of that is for my therapist or just for me.

[00:46:59] [SPEAKER_01] What about me? Yeah. Or Sean. What about me?

[00:47:02] [SPEAKER_02] Whatever you want to hear.

[00:47:04] [SPEAKER_05] I want to hear it all. Did you keep the note in the list?

[00:47:07] [SPEAKER_02] I have the list, but it's in my other phone. I do still have it. Yeah. I think cause last time we talked, I was able to pull it up and actually like look at it and I couldn't believe that I still had it.

[00:47:17] [SPEAKER_05] I always imagine actual lists on paper, but I have to remember I'm old.

[00:47:21] [SPEAKER_02] I used to do that and then I just wasn't writing things down enough. So I'm like, I gotta start using my phone and I like to write like it's a hobby for me. And I just found out I wasn't doing it if I was like committed to the notebook. So I was like, I have to be a little flexible here if I want to actually write things down when they pop into my head.

[00:47:38] [SPEAKER_05] Do you remember of that list? Anything that like you look back like that was weird.

[00:47:42] [SPEAKER_02] None of it seemed weird to me. It was like, I think like one of the things was like going through photos cause I have taken tons of family pictures over the years. Cause it's just been like, I've been the designated family photographer cause I have like, you know, moderate level of skill at it. So they're like, you can, you can frame a picture pretty well. So we're just going to give you the camera every time. But yeah, so I was planning to go through

[00:48:07] [SPEAKER_02] and I still haven't done that, go through all of my photos and distribute them to my family.

[00:48:12] [SPEAKER_05] Definitely. So how many people know that when you were 33, you were thinking about it?

[00:48:17] [SPEAKER_02] You Max and my therapist.

[00:48:19] [SPEAKER_05] You like your therapist?

[00:48:21] [SPEAKER_02] I do. She's amazing.

[00:48:23] [SPEAKER_05] She give you the diagnosis?

[00:48:24] [SPEAKER_02] Nope.

[00:48:25] [SPEAKER_05] That was before?

[00:48:26] [SPEAKER_02] Uh, yeah. Yeah. That was actually like my family doctor. So like he, he like basically went through kind of like this standard assessment with me and he just said, I could refer you to, um, a psychiatrist to like go confirm this. He's like, but I've never sent somebody to him and have him not confirm the diagnosis and you'd have to wait like six months. So he's like, the other option is for me to write you a prescription for this medication. And if it helps you,

[00:48:54] [SPEAKER_02] then chances are we've hit on the right thing. And if it doesn't, then you call me and it helped me a lot. Awesome. It still helps me a lot. Yeah.

[00:49:02] [SPEAKER_05] Yeah. Remember that first feeling where you could feel it?

[00:49:04] [SPEAKER_02] Oh my, the first day I took it is, is still the best day I've ever had.

[00:49:11] [SPEAKER_05] Isn't that incredible. And I, I, I get that.

[00:49:13] [SPEAKER_02] I was like, I couldn't, I was like, does everybody feel like this all the time? Which no, they don't is the answer.

[00:49:22] [SPEAKER_05] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The drugs are doing more than the, like what average.

[00:49:26] [SPEAKER_02] Once you adjust, it just starts, then it's, it doesn't feel like that anymore. It's just like, I feel normal. I still get tired in the afternoon, you know, like.

[00:49:35] [SPEAKER_05] Like, it's like when I used to do cocaine, I, I mean, like, is this how everyone, no, it's not. It's cocaine. Oh. But there are, there are probably some chemical compound overlaps with some of these medications. These stimulants are, are hitting similar parts of the brain.

[00:49:53] [SPEAKER_02] So interesting thing about that. I tried cocaine in Peru. Um, Max and I went on a trip there. I, it didn't make me feel much at all. But then I was watching this standup reel of this girl who has ADHD and she was talking about how drugs affect her differently because she has ADHD. And so cocaine is a stimulant. So for us, it just kind of makes us feel normal, like chill. But yeah, I was just like, yeah, I don't really like this stuff really isn't doing anything for me. So I'm

[00:50:23] [SPEAKER_02] just not going to have any more.

[00:50:24] [SPEAKER_05] Also a good test to be traveling with Max. That's a good test. Can I ask you questions about a few people that is the most Oprah thing I'll ever do in my life?

[00:50:33] [SPEAKER_01] Okay. Go for it.

[00:50:34] [SPEAKER_05] Like this is not a Sean style thing. You said you like your therapist. I tend to rip on therapist. Please pay attention. Sean's not always ripping on therapist. Give me at least one and up to three things you like about your therapist.

[00:50:49] [SPEAKER_02] One, we have had a conversation about the fact that like I ideate and all of that. And basically like I, the fact that like, I have no plans to hurt myself, but sometimes like I think about it and that may come up in conversation. And she was like, totally chill, totally cool with it. She was very supportive. She's like, you don't even, she's like, thank you for clarifying. She's like, you didn't need to. She's like, but she's like, because that is a given. She's like, I am not the person who's going to like

[00:51:17] [SPEAKER_02] report you because you're having mental health issues. I was like, okay, cool. That's amazing.

[00:51:23] [SPEAKER_05] Talk about a conversation opener.

[00:51:25] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. Also, she's very into social justice, very understanding of like how structural problems can impact people's mental wellbeing and like actually addresses it in conversation, which I appreciate because a lot of therapists really want to focus, well, what can you do? And like that can feel very dismissive sometimes when you are somebody who is like trying to survive under an oppressive system.

[00:51:50] [SPEAKER_02] Um, so, and, and part of that I think is because she's a person of color and also like her parents are immigrants. So she understands strict religious parent. And actually she is a Christian, but she has no problem with like, you know, we talk about our like faith and all that kind of stuff. And like the fact that like, I don't believe in God and I kind of have some issues with Christians. Like we can talk about that and it's never a problem.

[00:52:15] [SPEAKER_01] I like it.

[00:52:16] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. She's just like, she's very nonjudgmental. I feel very safe talking to her. And I also feel like she's really great at helping me kind of piece together how to, yeah, like work my way through difficult situations, you know, and giving me some different perspective where I need it.

[00:52:33] [SPEAKER_05] Can I do a public shot announcement?

[00:52:35] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah.

[00:52:36] [SPEAKER_05] PSA. Here we go. You ready?

[00:52:37] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:52:38] [SPEAKER_05] I'm going to flip it. I just said I was nice to therapists. If your therapist isn't exactly how Carolyn's therapist is, that's totally cool. However, one thing Carolyn said is that her therapist is nonjudgmental. If you're a therapist and you're judgmental, you should quit right now.

[00:52:53] [SPEAKER_01] I agree.

[00:52:54] [SPEAKER_05] And, but you're not aware of it probably. So those words mean nothing. Now here's where I'm going to spin it a little even more. One minimum one, maximum three number of things you like about Max, because I think you're going to share this with him.

[00:53:09] [SPEAKER_02] I mean, I feel like a lot of them, like he's very supportive. He's really funny. And I like one of my favorite things about him. And I think it's just because I am very much not like that. It's just like he's adventurous and he's a risk taker and I'm very much not that. And so I think that we balance each other out very well in that way. And he like encourages me to be more adventurous and take more risks. And I kind of like pull that in when I need to. And yeah, I really, I like that.

[00:53:35] [SPEAKER_02] I like that. He like encourages me to step outside of my comfort zone, but he doesn't push me because a lot of people in my life have pushed me and I hate that.

[00:53:44] [SPEAKER_05] Anti-pushing.

[00:53:45] [SPEAKER_02] Yes. Yeah.

[00:53:46] [SPEAKER_05] Do you, he may not hear this because then he'll hear about the cabin.

[00:53:49] [SPEAKER_02] Oh no. I mean, I'm okay with him hearing that.

[00:53:53] [SPEAKER_05] What about other people?

[00:53:55] [SPEAKER_02] Maybe less so. Honestly, the thing that I think the, what I've debated about the longest is like whether or not I would share it with my family. Like I know I'm my best friend. I know I would share it with Max. I think there's really only one sibling I would share it with because I know that he wouldn't share it with anybody else if I asked him not to. I mean, he actually works in the mental health space. He actually works, we worked for a suicide hotline for a long time.

[00:54:19] [SPEAKER_05] Love to talk. I'd love to talk to him. I know you can talk to your therapist. Sounds like you can talk to Max. Do you have other people in your life you can talk to about things that are really, when they're really rough?

[00:54:30] [SPEAKER_02] Um, my best friend Amira and I would say like my little brother, the one who works for the hotline is also somebody I can talk to because we've shared mental health struggles for a long time. Like he, I was one of the first people he talked to about his anxiety and like he was one of the first people. I think I kind of shared my own just to be like, Hey, you're not crazy. You're not weird. You know, I've had like feelings like that too. And there's nothing wrong with you. You just probably

[00:54:58] [SPEAKER_02] need some help or, you know, some intervention. Well, I was going to ask you what, so I know you're on meds, what else helps? Well, having people that you can talk to about it. Um, I have about four more now than I had, you know, in my twenties and also like, you know, when I was, yeah, I think like feeling the most like suicidal was maybe just like my friend Amira, but we weren't really talking at that time. Um, so I didn't feel like I could just call her when things were that

[00:55:24] [SPEAKER_02] serious. Cause it just felt like weird, you know, and kind of like me, me being a shitty friend, like, Oh, I'm just reaching out to you when I'm in crisis ever since our first conversation, that has become something that's become more normal and easier for me. Thank you for that.

[00:55:41] [SPEAKER_05] Oh, okay. Have you ever called 988?

[00:55:44] [SPEAKER_02] No.

[00:55:45] [SPEAKER_05] Do you think you would?

[00:55:46] [SPEAKER_02] Um, well, actually I shouldn't say that I haven't called 988, but I have used like a chat line actually that was specifically for like first nations people. Um, which is a very, is a very similar thing. I think I was just hoping it would make, they would be like maybe more sensitive or more, I don't know.

[00:56:02] [SPEAKER_05] Do they not be like, are you allowed to do that? You're not, are you first nations?

[00:56:06] Yeah.

[00:56:08] [SPEAKER_05] Wait, wait, what is, what is?

[00:56:10] [SPEAKER_02] Don't worry. I have, I have my card. I have proof that I'm allowed to do that.

[00:56:14] [SPEAKER_05] But, but can someone who's down in first nations call them?

[00:56:17] [SPEAKER_02] Um, I mean, I'm sure you probably could cause they don't make you, it's not like you have to like put your number in. It's just like available to you so that you have somebody who can provide culturally sensitive care or like, what was your experience with that? I mean, it was good. It made me feel a little better just having somebody I could talk to. And I, I remember it was like a chat, which was nice for me. Cause I feel, I felt like talking to somebody on the phone. I just wasn't, you know, if I start crying or

[00:56:45] [SPEAKER_02] whatever, I wouldn't have liked that. And yeah, just having somebody there, you know, like three in the morning who just like is like talking you off the ledge a little bit and just trying to help you make you feel a little bit better in that moment. So maybe you don't want to kill yourself. And yeah, I found, I found that it helped. It was just like nice to know that somebody cared enough to just like sit there with me until I needed them to go.

[00:57:08] [SPEAKER_05] Biggest myth or misconception?

[00:57:10] [SPEAKER_02] I think it's hard for me to think of them because I have, I don't really spend a lot of time talking to people who don't take this shit seriously because I, I, I can't, for me, it's hard to like bring that to mind a little bit because I'm just like, I, yeah, I don't, I don't go in those spaces because I'm not safe there.

[00:57:29] [SPEAKER_05] But you see shit on social media or?

[00:57:32] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. Oh, well, I'm, I'm largely off of it these days. I think like, I'm just trying to think about, I guess, like me and my life. Maybe the biggest thing is that it is something that shouldn't be taken as seriously or treated as seriously as like somebody having a chronic physical illness or somebody being in an unbelievable amount of pain from cancer.

[00:57:57] [SPEAKER_02] It's just like mental pain, mental illness is just as valid as physical illness. And it is not seen or treated that way by most people and most institutions.

[00:58:08] [SPEAKER_05] Fair and agree. Do you remember when we talked earlier this year, what you said with respect to the pink and purple pill question?

[00:58:17] [SPEAKER_02] That I would keep it.

[00:58:19] [SPEAKER_05] And what about today?

[00:58:20] [SPEAKER_02] I think I would say the same thing because I don't know what life is going to bring, you know, and I very much believe that like, I don't fully have control over what happens to me, which means I don't have full control over how I'll respond to that. That being the case, I can't say that I will never feel like I get to a point where I'm like, you know what, I'm done. And I, I am very comfortable with the idea. Like I think about, cause I, I see a lot

[00:58:45] [SPEAKER_02] of senior people whose bodies are falling apart. Their quality of life is not great. Often they, you know, are depressed or just like, um, you know, feel abandoned by their family, all of these things. And I'm just like, I don't want that. And if it ever got to a point where I felt like that, yep. Pink and purple pill.

[00:59:02] [SPEAKER_05] It should be my branding or marketing coordinator.

[00:59:07] [SPEAKER_02] They ever come up with that.

[00:59:09] [SPEAKER_05] If it, if we ever came up with that and I, and I literally were like, I'm going to sell it for a dollar. I'd be, I'd be rich.

[00:59:16] [SPEAKER_02] Um, it's all for less than that and be extremely rich.

[00:59:19] [SPEAKER_05] A hundred percent. For those of you that don't know, shame on you. But, uh, not that I want to add any more shame in your life. You already probably have plenty, but a pink and purple pill allows somebody to go to sleep and not wake up and there's no pain and they die and nobody knows it's a suicide. If you were wondering, please start listening to this podcast regularly. We're moving forward. So I don't have to do the explanation every time it's long and clunky. Memoir title, uh, Jesus free, Jesus freak, Jesus something. Do we want no connection to Jesus?

[00:59:48] [SPEAKER_02] I mean, I think for a time I would have said no, but it's such a big part of my mental health story that I think, uh, think it's gotta be in there.

[00:59:56] [SPEAKER_05] Jesus free. We'll talk about the subtitle in the future, but we don't, we don't need it right now. Pro or con assisted suicide?

[01:00:03] [SPEAKER_02] Uh, oh, definitely four.

[01:00:06] [SPEAKER_05] Could you Carolyn, and I know you're in the field, sit with someone who was taking their own life. Now look, I understand that it might be hard to sit with somebody who's literally putting a bullet in there and blowing their head off. That's a little different, but let's say it's medication or some other way. Could you, could you be like, they said, Carolyn, I want you by my side.

[01:00:24] [SPEAKER_02] I mean, I think I would have to carefully consider any legal, legal implications, but yes.

[01:00:30] [SPEAKER_05] Legal, legal, legal implications for this question are not relevant.

[01:00:33] [SPEAKER_02] If they're not, then absolutely. Absolutely.

[01:00:35] [SPEAKER_05] But there are legal, that's the thing.

[01:00:38] [SPEAKER_02] Oh, I know. And that's like, that's where it's tricky, right? Cause even you with like, you know, your, your 30 day, 30 day show. Um.

[01:00:46] [SPEAKER_05] Right. It's such a good idea.

[01:00:48] [SPEAKER_02] I'd be talking to a lawyer.

[01:00:50] [SPEAKER_05] If I were doing the show, like I want to do, you would suggest I talk to a lawyer.

[01:00:55] [SPEAKER_02] I would.

[01:00:56] [SPEAKER_05] Pioneers don't talk to lawyers.

[01:00:58] [SPEAKER_04] Hey.

[01:00:59] [SPEAKER_05] You know what happens? Pioneers go to jail. And then they die there. And then 50 years later, someone says something nice about them. They're like, yeah, we should appreciate that a little bit more. It's a little ahead of its time.

[01:01:10] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. But yeah, it is something that like, I absolutely think should be right. And yeah. Cause it's just like, why on earth, you know, grown adults have the ability to do so, make so many choices, do so many things with their lives. You could go gamble away every cent you own and no one would stop you. You could drive home drunk, you know, all of there's all of these.

[01:01:31] [SPEAKER_05] Wait, wait, wait, wait. When did you, when did we decide that you were allowed to tell people about Sean's life? Why are we bringing my life into the story here? Assuming I don't screw things up again and actually your audio file doesn't go corrupt. I call you or email you in one year. You're going to be around for that. I think.

[01:01:50] [SPEAKER_02] I think so.

[01:01:51] [SPEAKER_05] What else do you want to share? I think I actually went through just about everything I wanted to talk about. I'm on the spot a little bit.

[01:01:57] [SPEAKER_02] Anybody out there who's like struggling with your mental health, struggling with depression, anxiety, suicidal thoughts, whatever it is, just tell the haters to fuck off.

[01:02:08] [SPEAKER_05] Oh, I was not. Because what I thought you were going to say, and I was already starting to roll my eyes, was you were going to say to all those people, just talk about it. And what I got and said was tell the haters to fuck off. By the way, I think we might need to at least consider modifying or completely changing your memoir title.

[01:02:28] [SPEAKER_02] I mean, I'm okay with that one.

[01:02:30] [SPEAKER_05] Tell the haters to fuck off. I'm reading that shit. Problem is, I'm going to open it up. There's no words because you didn't write the book.

[01:02:38] [SPEAKER_02] I could.

[01:02:39] [SPEAKER_05] I could. I bet you could. And also there'll be some stuff about Jesus in there too.

[01:02:43] [SPEAKER_02] Oh, a hundred percent. But yeah, I just think like for so much of my life, if I let other people tell me how I should feel about myself because of what I was going through, that's bullshit. You know, you're, if you're suffering from severe mental health issues, what you need is help and love and compassion and support and not judgment.

[01:03:02] [SPEAKER_05] Given what you just said, when you listen to this podcast and you, and this could also happen when you're in your real life too, but particularly with the age group you work with, but, and you hear of someone talking about suicide and it seems like they might be very serious about it. Maybe they're planning it and you're like, they're probably going to kill themselves. Or you learn of someone dying of suicide. It might be case by case, but what's your, yeah, what's your gut reaction?

[01:03:27] [SPEAKER_02] I think it always makes me sad because death is sad. I think for most of us, you know, it's like people losing somebody or just like the loss of life is an inherently kind of sad thing, but it doesn't mean it's only sad. And for me, I think it depends on the circumstances because I think there are some suicides which like had people received resources or support, they wouldn't have wanted to kill themselves. And I think those are particularly heartbreaking.

[01:03:56] [SPEAKER_02] But for people who killed themselves because of circumstances that they and no one else could change. And it was something that gave them peace and relief when their life just would have been suffering. That doesn't make me sad.

[01:04:09] [SPEAKER_05] Yeah, I feel the same way. I don't know if I asked you this, but why did you originally reach out and want to talk with me?

[01:04:16] [SPEAKER_02] I think I reached out to you in part for the reason that like a lot of people do, which is like, I wanted to talk about this, but just felt like there was nowhere else that I could. I know that there are unbelievable amounts of people out there experiencing the same thing because they all live in very much like the same culture and society that I do. Yeah, we got to do more to help each other talk about what's going on. And this is one of the ways.

[01:04:41] [SPEAKER_02] But yeah, it's a hard solo project. Almost impossible one, I would say.

[01:04:46] [SPEAKER_05] I get some help and I want to thank the people who support me and help me out.

[01:04:50] [SPEAKER_02] Oh, absolutely. But I just mean like, you know, creating change in that sphere. You know, it's something none of us are going to do alone. And it's, I think, just being in it when there are so few people helping and supporting is like, you feel like you're carrying the weight of a hundred people or a thousand people because they're not there helping you hold it up.

[01:05:11] [SPEAKER_05] What's the rest of your day like?

[01:05:13] [SPEAKER_02] I am probably going to do some design work for my little sister's wedding. It's coming up soon. Got some like last minute tweaks to do. But it's going to be, it's going to be a good time. I'm just going to have a busy couple of weeks and trying to pace myself so I don't burn out and start ideating.

[01:05:31] [SPEAKER_05] And what are we telling the haters to do?

[01:05:34] [SPEAKER_02] Fuck off.

[01:05:35] [SPEAKER_05] Damn straight.

[01:05:36] [SPEAKER_02] Fuck all the way off.

[01:05:37] [SPEAKER_05] Drop. Fuck all the way off. That is a mic drop moment. All right, cool. Thanks for reconnecting with me, Carolyn. I really appreciate it.

[01:05:44] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, no, I just, I appreciate what you're doing and I, yeah.

[01:05:47] [SPEAKER_05] Got anything else you want to share before we get back to our day?

[01:05:51] [SPEAKER_02] I mean, there are a lot of people who are neurodivergent who very much believe that neurodivergence wouldn't be a problem if the world wasn't so hard.

[01:06:01] [SPEAKER_05] If you doubt that public shot announcement, this is new for me. I just love it because it happens to also be PSA. If you don't agree with what Carolyn just said, you're entitled. You can think whatever you want, but you are, it's impossible for what you said not to be true.

[01:06:16] [SPEAKER_02] Well, and so like, and there's like a whole kind of school of people who think like, oh, everybody just has a diagnosis now. And it's like, well, that's because the box in which you, you fit, um, in order to like succeed in this world keeps getting smaller and smaller and smaller, which leaves more and more people outside of it. And, and yeah, and basically what we're diagnosing is people's inability to cope in a world that's like largely anti-human.

[01:06:44] [SPEAKER_05] I love the people, even if it's bullshit and they're lying, but I believe it's like, I'll see this once in a while, like a really wealthy dude. And they're like, oh, I had so much help along the way. There's no way I'd be here without my family, a lot of lucky DNA.

[01:07:00] [SPEAKER_01] I am with you.

[01:07:01] [SPEAKER_05] I love when I hear that. I still fucking don't like them because they're super successful and probably very good looking, but I love that. And it's not so common. You usually do. It's all, I work my ass. I was like, you know what? You know when it's a lot easier to work your ass off when you keep succeeding and you keep getting the positive reinforcement.

[01:07:19] [SPEAKER_02] And also I think it's a lot easier to give yourself credit for that success when you keep winning. It's like, you know, if somebody's at the roulette table and they keep winning, they keep winning, they keep winning. At some point they're going to think, I'm doing this. I'm making this happen.

[01:07:33] [SPEAKER_05] And then what happens when it's the opposite? When you keep trying, you keep failing. How many times do you have to do that before you give up?

[01:07:39] [SPEAKER_02] Yep.

[01:07:40] [SPEAKER_05] And then when you give up in a world in which, you know, you got to bathe and eat food and do some basic, eventually you're like, nah.

[01:07:47] [SPEAKER_02] And this brings us back to The Alone Show.

[01:07:51] [SPEAKER_05] Don't change the name of my podcast. Can we just see if there's a podcast called The Alone Show? Because if there's not, you need a podcast called The Alone Show.

[01:08:00] Yeah.

[01:08:01] [SPEAKER_05] The Alone Show.

[01:08:03] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. What I really want, they did like one season with partners and then they stopped because they said it was a failure and I want them to relaunch it and call it Almost Alone. That's the dream.

[01:08:14] [SPEAKER_05] All right. Thanks. Have a good day. I appreciate you. And hopefully we can talk again soon.

[01:08:20] [SPEAKER_02] Absolutely. Enjoy your night.

[01:08:21] [SPEAKER_05] You too. Bye.

[01:08:22] [SPEAKER_02] Bye.

[01:08:24] [SPEAKER_05] As always, thanks so much for listening and all of your support. Special thanks to Carolyn in Ontario. Thanks, Carolyn. If you are a suicide attempt survivor or ideator and you'd like to talk, I'd love to talk with you. Please reach out. Hello at suicidenoted.com. If you're curious about my private audio practice, you can check out themissingrecord.com. And if you have a moment, rate us on Apple. Please. Five stars. It really helps people find the podcast. And there's probably some people out there who would like to find the podcast, but just aren't aware of it.

[01:08:54] [SPEAKER_05] I appreciate that. And that is all for this week's episode. Stay strong. Do the best you can. I'll talk to you soon.