Ari in Washington

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_01] I approach death and suicide from a point of letting my own suffering end. It is like finally getting to take some rest.

[00:00:51] [SPEAKER_02] So one of my goals with this podcast is to have more conversations and hopefully better conversations with survivors in large part to help more people in more places hopefully feel a little less shitty and a little less alone. Now if you're a survivor or an eye dater and you'd like to talk please reach out. Hello at suicidenoted.com I'd love to talk with you.

[00:01:10] [SPEAKER_02] You can learn more about this podcast where you listen on Apple or Spotify, our website suicidenoted.com. You can also learn more about a private audio practice I started last year at themissingrecord.com. I'm curious to know what you think of that. Perhaps it's something that someone you know might benefit from. In any case if you're curious have a look.

[00:01:31] [SPEAKER_02] Finally we are talking about suicide on this podcast. My guests and I do not hold back so please take that into account before you listen or as you listen. But I do hope you listen because there is so much to learn. Today I am talking with Ari. Ari lives in Washington and she is a suicide attempt survivor. Hi Ari. Should we let our audience know that we're both drinking coffee or tea together?

[00:01:57] [SPEAKER_01] Yes. What are you drinking?

[00:01:59] [SPEAKER_02] I'm drinking black coffee.

[00:02:01] [SPEAKER_01] Oh I have that too. I made me some chai and also some black coffee.

[00:02:06] [SPEAKER_02] Nice combo. And let's not beat around the bush here. I'm looking at you and I see this interesting last name. So I know when white people ask not white people where they're from when they're residing in the United States there's a little bit of like I'm from the United States. Why would you ask me that question? Just because you're white and you're probably been. Not what I mean. I'm just asking. I assume your family heritage is probably elsewhere. Is that right?

[00:02:30] [SPEAKER_01] That is true. And that question like I have asked people from Asia and let's say California and I've asked but your grandparents and I've gotten those tears too. Like oh.

[00:02:42] [SPEAKER_02] Oh you think you as a you're darker than me person.

[00:02:46] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. So I don't see it as like a racist question. Like I have a if you look at me you'd know.

[00:02:54] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah I mean probably and also you have a little bit of an accent so that tells me that you got here when you were at least in your late teens or later.

[00:03:02] [SPEAKER_01] Oh 20s.

[00:03:03] [SPEAKER_02] How old are you now?

[00:03:04] [SPEAKER_01] I'm 42. I feel 82.

[00:03:07] [SPEAKER_02] 42 feel 82. We got a 40 year gap with actual age, how you feel. Did you just randomly add 40 years or you have it down to a science?

[00:03:18] [SPEAKER_01] Oh just randomly.

[00:03:19] [SPEAKER_02] And you're in where do you live?

[00:03:21] [SPEAKER_01] I live in Seattle. Oh and I did not answer your other question. My parents are from South India. It's a small state called Kerala in India.

[00:03:31] [SPEAKER_02] I would have gotten back to that eventually but thank you.

[00:03:34] [SPEAKER_01] Okay.

[00:03:34] [SPEAKER_02] I like when my guests help me because I'm getting old and I forget because I also am not feeling 82 but definitely in my 70s and I'm not close to that. So do you like Seattle? I hear mixed things. I know it's a beautiful city but it's so fucking rainy.

[00:03:49] [SPEAKER_01] That's why I moved here. I love Seattle. I love rain. Like summer is not my favorite time of the year. And as soon as it starts raining I'll go hiking or walking.

[00:04:00] [SPEAKER_02] That's working. You know when it gets hard? It's like if you're trying to do your day and go like grocery shopping. It depends on how you dress. You learn how to dress for rain. But if you enjoy being in the rain and it's a hike and then it's golden and it's super green. Somebody was joking with me that Seattle people communicate because you're not a native from there so maybe this is only from like natives. Or are you a native from there?

[00:04:22] [SPEAKER_01] I'm not. So Seattle Frees, is that what you're... Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. So I have been quite lucky and also I put a lot of effort in making friends. And someone who grew up in Seattle told me that Seattle Frees is true. Totally. Like they have friends who don't want to mix with transplants. The thing though is there are lots of like transplants in Seattle.

[00:04:46] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, of course.

[00:04:46] [SPEAKER_01] The way it was explained to me is that they're very friendly. They're very friendly but there is no, oh, do you want to come over for coffee or...

[00:04:57] [SPEAKER_04] Okay, that's different.

[00:04:58] [SPEAKER_01] My experience has been different. Like my best friend right now, one of my best friends is 82. That's maybe where I get 82.

[00:05:08] [SPEAKER_02] That's it, your older friend, your older friend, yeah.

[00:05:10] [SPEAKER_01] He lives right above my condo and I'm friends with his family over here yesterday, yeah.

[00:05:18] [SPEAKER_02] Here's an observation. I've been doing this podcast for over six years. I'm going to try to get this right. I don't have numbers but I've definitely spoken to fewer than five people from all of South Asia. They've all been residing in North America. So never spoken to somebody in India, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka. You can expand it further. Probably for hundreds of kilometers. I know some of them have attempted suicide or think about it. So they're eligible. That means...

[00:05:45] [SPEAKER_02] And I'm breaking this up into two parts because part of it's there but part of it's people here. Does that tell me... I don't know if you're an expert at this just because you're Indian or of Indian descent. Are Indian people not killing themselves as much or trying? Is the culture less likely to open up about it? Do they have less access to Wi-Fi so they can't hear it in the first place? Or something else I'm missing? Why? Because it's a rather large percentage of people. Where are you all and why are you not talking, especially to me?

[00:06:13] [SPEAKER_01] I cannot speak for other people. But I'd say this. It's also an observation that I have. So the last two years I've been through, you know, the PHP, IOP, a 40-day intensive trauma treatment thing. I have never met another Indian in any of these programs.

[00:06:32] [SPEAKER_02] You might be genetically superior.

[00:06:35] [SPEAKER_01] Maybe.

[00:06:36] [SPEAKER_02] You got a little unlucky, but most of the others...

[00:06:40] [SPEAKER_01] I'm a black sheep. That's what it is.

[00:06:42] [SPEAKER_02] I'll tell you my two theories. Two-part theory. One is you're just less likely to get care for whatever historical cultural reasons, at least maybe when you're living elsewhere. Maybe it's different in New Delhi. I don't know. Two, on average, you're wealthier. And I think when you have wealth, that doesn't take away from depression, anxiety, suicidal tendencies. It may skew a little bit more towards... And I don't know why I'm less likely to open up about it because there's status connected to it.

[00:07:10] [SPEAKER_01] The way I see it is that we're so brainwashed and conditioned from a very young age to not open up.

[00:07:17] [SPEAKER_02] Well, there it is.

[00:07:19] [SPEAKER_01] To not talk about anything. Even now, when I talk about my mom or dad in a negative light, I feel this crushing guilt and terror in my nervous system that I'm doing something wrong.

[00:07:31] [SPEAKER_02] How long have you been listening to this particular podcast?

[00:07:33] [SPEAKER_01] I found this podcast last year. You know, I used to be that person who was obsessed with Brené Brown and Tim Ferriss and all that. And I was like, trauma is a gift. I'm going to turn this into whatever stuff. And then I just hit rock bottom.

[00:07:53] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah.

[00:07:54] [SPEAKER_01] And then I felt some more and realized there is even more bottom to explore.

[00:07:58] [SPEAKER_02] Oh, when you hit rock bottom and you realize there's more bottom.

[00:08:01] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. Like it's...

[00:08:03] [SPEAKER_02] Why do I not like Brené Brown or Tim Ferriss? Not dislike. Just there's something about... They're not doing anything wrong. A lot of the stuff they do is interesting and important. And they make a lot of money. I'm not judging that. Something's slightly off. And I don't know what it is.

[00:08:19] [SPEAKER_01] I think for me, at least, it is because it does not capture the experience of everyone. Experience of a certain percentage, which is not... I wouldn't say it's a minor percentage, but a certain percentage. And then tries to apply it to everyone else.

[00:08:34] [SPEAKER_02] Perfectly said. Perfectly said. In fact, that's exactly what I've been trying to say about this podcast is all the stuff everyone's doing in real public, social media stages, captures it for some. But you're missing a big chunk. That's actually one of the reasons I attract the people I do because they're like, that doesn't work for me. If it worked for nobody, presumably they would change their strategies. So yeah, it's working for some people. I think the number it's now working for is significantly higher than we think because... Not because it makes my podcast look better.

[00:09:04] [SPEAKER_02] It's because when you... Part of the big problem, I think, is that you're silencing people. And how do you know how many people you silenced if they're silenced? So if I had a bet, I'm thinking... I literally think we're talking about near half the population that are struggling. That messaging doesn't work. It might be higher.

[00:09:21] [SPEAKER_01] I've tried all the treatments that are available and done all the right things and I'm still struggling. So I'm like, it doesn't work for everyone. And that's another reason. Like I loved your podcast. I was wondering, I cannot be the only person having gone through all the treatments, medications and I'm getting worse, not better. And then I realized that, oh, people who are struggling the way I'm struggling or worse,

[00:09:49] [SPEAKER_01] they don't have the resources to sit down and write a book or share their story and it doesn't go viral either, right?

[00:09:56] [SPEAKER_02] Right, right, right, right. Especially when you use the word suicide and it literally will disqualify you from going viral, the algorithm. Can we just go back for a moment? When you said something about my podcast, you didn't say I liked your podcast.

[00:10:09] [SPEAKER_01] I said I loved your podcast.

[00:10:10] [SPEAKER_02] Not like. I want everyone to hear that.

[00:10:12] [SPEAKER_00] I love it.

[00:10:13] [SPEAKER_02] Loves.

[00:10:14] [SPEAKER_00] Loves it.

[00:10:15] [SPEAKER_02] Suicide identify, guys. Let's just get all on the same page here as we continue our conversation. Yeah, I've spoken to a handful of people from Washington and I bet when you're scrolling, you go to Washington. You look for it.

[00:10:28] [SPEAKER_01] Not necessarily. I look for other countries. You know, I want to know what healthcare is like in other countries. And like I remember, I was researching the medically assisted suicide, which is how I got your podcast. And I saw someone from Switzerland on your podcast. And I was like, oh, I had this notion in my head that, oh, Switzerland, maybe things are hunky-dory.

[00:10:55] [SPEAKER_02] They may get hard everywhere, but there are some countries where it's a little different. I wish I had more from other countries. If I had more money, I would be spending money to reach more people. I want more countries and more perspectives. They have to have Wi-Fi. They have to speak English at a high enough level. There's limits there. But last year, when you thought you'd hit rock bottom, but you hadn't, why did you want to talk about it, especially when someone who's been almost trained not to talk about it?

[00:11:22] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. I've not been very good at that, keeping the training.

[00:11:25] [SPEAKER_02] Rebellious, we should say.

[00:11:27] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. I don't come across as a rebellious person. But there are certain lines that when it's crossed, like I have this obsession with truth, no matter how uncomfortable it is. But when there are just lies all around, I'm like, okay, you're doing a great job collecting all these stories. Sean Wellington, such a great job. I love the podcast.

[00:11:50] I love the podcast.

[00:11:52] [SPEAKER_02] Wait a second.

[00:11:53] [SPEAKER_00] Again, once more.

[00:11:55] [SPEAKER_02] Right now, what I'm thinking for your memoir is just talking awesome things about me. And people are going to open up and be like, the title doesn't match any of the content. But she's not writing the book. It doesn't matter.

[00:12:07] [SPEAKER_03] It's about me.

[00:12:08] [SPEAKER_02] I mean, you'll be in the subtitle somewhere. I tell a site. Don't worry. Okay. But still, it takes some courage to reach out and to actually do it. So why?

[00:12:16] [SPEAKER_01] I don't know if it takes courage. Like for me, it was, it helped me a lot to listen to the experience of other people. And especially like, I'm so angry and mad at our healthcare system and how this mental healthcare system works. I've been in therapy for nearly 18 years now.

[00:12:33] [SPEAKER_02] Wow. That, you're not very good at it. Or the people you're working with aren't. Or maybe therapy is supposed to be a lifelong thing. And we just kind of think it's a one-year fix, but maybe it's not.

[00:12:46] [SPEAKER_01] Oh, God, no. Like therapy cannot undo the things that have been done to you since you're a child, right? So I don't see it as a cure anymore. But I really enjoyed when you would get angry at like some of the ways in which our healthcare system works.

[00:13:02] [SPEAKER_02] And let's go. Let us continue that part of the conversation. Yeah. I mean, there's no doubt about it. Some of them are criminals. There's no question about it.

[00:13:11] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah.

[00:13:12] [SPEAKER_02] They should actually be in jail. Not the majority, just to be clear. Because the damage they're doing. Like think about it this way. I steal a car. I'm not really doing much damage. I'm making someone a little worried. I don't steal cars, by the way. You go to jail for that.

[00:13:27] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah.

[00:13:27] [SPEAKER_02] Think about what some of these people, whether they're like the hands-on doctor, nurse, or the administrator who just wants to keep making a lot of money. Like you are damaging people hard. I'm not saying you belong in jail. We should probably put them in something like what they put you in. See how they like it.

[00:13:44] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah.

[00:13:45] [SPEAKER_02] I didn't necessarily mean it took courage to listen, though some might. I think it takes some courage to reach out, show up, and talk about it knowing a lot of other people are going to hear it. And truthing the untruths.

[00:13:58] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. Adding my story to the list, too.

[00:14:01] [SPEAKER_02] Collection of... How would you characterize this list?

[00:14:04] [SPEAKER_01] So it's a list that if it's not disproving, at least it is telling the world that, you know, like when you go to any mental health stuff, there would be you're not alone. Help is available.

[00:14:18] [SPEAKER_04] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:14:20] [SPEAKER_01] And there is this perception that you just reach out, take medication, go to therapy, and you're healed.

[00:14:24] [SPEAKER_02] A lot of smart people feel that way.

[00:14:26] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. And my story, like, I have tried everything. And to an extent where, like, I don't drink alcohol. I cut out gluten to improve my mental health. I'm progressively getting worse.

[00:14:39] [SPEAKER_02] Jesus. When you say you've tried everything, and we'll get to this, have you tried suicide?

[00:14:43] [SPEAKER_01] I have, but I don't remember it. I was 24.

[00:14:47] [SPEAKER_02] And I imagine from what you're saying, I'm more than 99% sure that in your 20s, 30s, and now 40s, and perhaps even earlier, you thought about it sometimes.

[00:14:57] [SPEAKER_01] Oh, God, yes. So the culture that I come from, let's say you're stuck in a bad marriage. Divorce is not an option. I was the first person in my entire family to get divorced twice.

[00:15:09] [SPEAKER_02] Wait, wait, what? Wait, you got divorced, which was hard, and then you got remarried?

[00:15:14] [SPEAKER_01] Oh, that doesn't happen. Wait, wait, wait.

[00:15:18] [SPEAKER_02] No, it does happen. You did it.

[00:15:19] [SPEAKER_01] I did it. But I'm a black sheep. You know, I also had to pay a price for it.

[00:15:24] [SPEAKER_02] Is it racist to say you're a brown sheep?

[00:15:27] [SPEAKER_01] Yes.

[00:15:31] [SPEAKER_02] This is just me testing your honesty. You want truth? Yes, Sean, it's racist. Does it change because I'm white, or no matter what, that's a racist?

[00:15:41] [SPEAKER_04] No.

[00:15:41] [SPEAKER_02] You know that my memoir title brain is working right now with black sheep, brown sheep.

[00:15:46] [SPEAKER_01] I have a better one.

[00:15:48] [SPEAKER_02] Hold up. Let's tease the audience. We're not the only ones talking. People are going to hear this. So what we need to do sometimes, this is just my own strategy, but I know there's a few things I'm doing behind the scenes that make this, I think, a little bit easier for people to hear and flow and track and connect is you give them a little breadcrumbs. Give them a little something to think about. You said something about, I was 24, I tried to kill myself, but I don't remember it. Oh, we'll get to that, but now they want to know.

[00:16:13] [SPEAKER_03] That's why I wrote stuff down.

[00:16:15] [SPEAKER_02] So I know why you listen. I know why you reached out. I know the kinds of stories that tend to resonate more or at least the ones you look for. I know you live in Washington and that you love the rain, chai, coffee. You've been married twice, which is rare for a woman in your background. The first one was an Indian dude.

[00:16:32] [SPEAKER_01] Both were Indian dudes.

[00:16:33] [SPEAKER_02] This was in India?

[00:16:34] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. And before you ask arranged marriages.

[00:16:37] [SPEAKER_02] How do you know I was going to ask that?

[00:16:38] [SPEAKER_01] I have had this question asked a million times right now.

[00:16:42] [SPEAKER_02] I don't actually know if I was going to ask that. I would have probably asked it and then assumed the second one wasn't arranged because you had learned your lesson.

[00:16:50] [SPEAKER_01] Oh, God, no. I did not.

[00:16:52] Okay, okay, okay.

[00:16:54] [SPEAKER_02] There's something about your absolute and complete, slightly self-deprecating honesty I find endearing. Let's go back to Tim Ferriss and Brene Brown. They would hear that comment and they might not like it.

[00:17:04] [SPEAKER_01] Oh, of course not.

[00:17:05] [SPEAKER_02] Maybe the word lesson is the wrong word.

[00:17:07] [SPEAKER_01] What would be a right word?

[00:17:09] [SPEAKER_02] It's experience life and try to get a tiny bit better at it.

[00:17:13] [SPEAKER_01] Do we ever get to a point where we have learned all the lessons or whatever word?

[00:17:17] [SPEAKER_02] Ah, just go to TED.com and listen to this. Yeah, they'll tell you everything you need to know. They know everything.

[00:17:25] [SPEAKER_04] I don't think so.

[00:17:26] [SPEAKER_02] But they haven't learned humility, I don't think.

[00:17:29] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah.

[00:17:29] [SPEAKER_02] So they're still lacking. Interesting. Suicide stories. And this isn't a story, this is a conversation, but one of the things that aren't reaching a lot of people is the majority of them, whether it's on a suicide prevention website or whether it's at conferences, they are almost always recovery stories. And that's not going to reach everybody. Let me say something else. Public Sean announcement, it's a PSA. A lot of people want to hear the truth, even if that truth means the person's still suffering.

[00:17:57] [SPEAKER_02] Also, by the way, that is that original thought by Sean. Also, by the way, if you don't understand that, I don't understand you.

[00:18:05] [SPEAKER_01] And that's the thing about understanding too. What I've come to realize is that not all of us can understand everything. Like I don't understand the experience of someone living with cancer or schizophrenia, but that doesn't have to stop me from practicing compassion.

[00:18:19] [SPEAKER_02] Asterisk. I'll tell you why. Someone who has cancer. What was the other example you gave?

[00:18:24] [SPEAKER_01] Or schizophrenia.

[00:18:25] [SPEAKER_02] Cool. You know what they'll say? Probably skewing towards people who are religious, but not all. They'll say it's not their fault.

[00:18:31] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, that's true.

[00:18:33] [SPEAKER_02] Suicide's its own beast. So there are some differences. We'll talk about it later. Breadcrumbs, baby. Breadcrumbs. Are you married? No. So are you, now that you're over 40, you're middle-aged. I find being middle-aged and single hard, but I've also never been married.

[00:18:49] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, maybe that's why. Yeah.

[00:18:52] [SPEAKER_02] How long were your marriages?

[00:18:53] [SPEAKER_01] Oh my God. Like I was married the first time for three months and second for two.

[00:18:59] [SPEAKER_02] Wait, wait, wait, wait. Collectively less than a half a year?

[00:19:01] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. And I spent over collectively maybe five or six years getting divorced.

[00:19:06] [SPEAKER_02] How old were you when this was happening?

[00:19:08] [SPEAKER_01] The first one was 24. The second one was 29.

[00:19:12] [SPEAKER_02] And then when did you come to these states?

[00:19:14] [SPEAKER_01] 24.

[00:19:15] [SPEAKER_02] Oh, these were Indian dudes here?

[00:19:17] [SPEAKER_01] No.

[00:19:17] [SPEAKER_02] Okay. We'll get to that. Another question. Is it typically the parents or grandparents or aunts and uncles who pick?

[00:19:25] [SPEAKER_01] Horoscopes, astrologers.

[00:19:26] [SPEAKER_02] But can we just say out loud in public, in your case, how awful they were at it?

[00:19:31] [SPEAKER_01] Oh, sorry. We have to take a step back. So this is not a traditional or rather the first one. I met him at work in India. And then he started, like we started having feelings for each other. So my parents, he told his parents, they're like, yeah, we have to check the horoscope. And there was some family drama and all that stuff.

[00:19:52] [SPEAKER_02] Wait, wait, wait. So that's not really arranged. You met somebody who already liked them.

[00:19:56] [SPEAKER_01] So some people think that is arranged. Yes, our family was involved.

[00:20:00] [SPEAKER_02] Okay. So like levels of arrangement.

[00:20:02] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. And this was like when I dated someone here, you know, we saw each other a few times a week after six months, not three months. We moved in together. But this, we hadn't even like kissed or held hands.

[00:20:17] [SPEAKER_02] Oh, you're talking about back when you were younger?

[00:20:19] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:20:19] [SPEAKER_02] First of all, we have to, this is a big question. Everyone in the audience is probably not thinking, but maybe. What is your horoscope?

[00:20:26] [SPEAKER_01] I don't know.

[00:20:27] [SPEAKER_02] One, what month were you born?

[00:20:29] [SPEAKER_01] January.

[00:20:30] [SPEAKER_02] All right. That might make you a Capricorn. It might be.

[00:20:31] [SPEAKER_01] Oh, the system is completely different.

[00:20:34] [SPEAKER_02] Oh my God. So obviously both horoscopes are the guys who were arranged to marry. The horoscopes checked out with the family.

[00:20:41] [SPEAKER_01] Oh God, yeah.

[00:20:42] [SPEAKER_02] You could meet like the perfect man in India, the man of your dreams. But if he was born in March, your family could be like, no.

[00:20:48] [SPEAKER_01] Oh, that's not how it works. Like it doesn't matter which month you're born. It's a different system altogether.

[00:20:53] [SPEAKER_03] That's what a horoscope is, is the month you're born.

[00:20:55] [SPEAKER_01] Maybe the Western one.

[00:20:57] [SPEAKER_03] Wait, what does this horoscope mean in India?

[00:20:59] [SPEAKER_01] I have no clue.

[00:21:01] [SPEAKER_03] How do you not know you're from India? And you've been married twice and you've had the conversation with your family.

[00:21:06] [SPEAKER_01] So the conversation we should be having is that it's not about my beliefs. It's about what my mom believes.

[00:21:14] [SPEAKER_04] Sure.

[00:21:15] [SPEAKER_01] So I was born and raised in Dubai. I missed out on a lot of this Indian conditioning. So it was a mini conditioning in a different environment.

[00:21:23] [SPEAKER_04] Okay.

[00:21:24] [SPEAKER_01] So I still don't know what is in my horoscope. I've sat through my reading and this guy asked me, do you believe, you don't believe in this, do you? And I said, no. And that was that. But it's about not disobeying parents, not bringing any shame.

[00:21:39] [SPEAKER_02] Family matters. Absolutely. Have you brought shame to your family?

[00:21:42] [SPEAKER_01] Oh, God, yes.

[00:21:43] [SPEAKER_02] Nobody's ever talked to me from Dubai who's tried to kill themselves also, by the way.

[00:21:46] [SPEAKER_01] So you get two countries with me.

[00:21:47] [SPEAKER_02] No, you only get Washington. Your background doesn't make the title, but it's part of the conversation. You're born in Dubai. At some point, you move to India. You meet a guy. Your family approves. At 24, you get married. Three months later, you try to get divorced.

[00:22:02] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah.

[00:22:03] [SPEAKER_02] It takes some time. I know there's a second person, and I also know you moved to the States.

[00:22:08] [SPEAKER_01] Okay. The timeline. So I was born in 1984. When I was 18, I moved to India for school and stuff. Then I moved to a different city to start my new job at 22, which is where I met my first ex-husband. But a few months after we met, the conversation started, then we got married, and both of us moved to London. And this was a long-distance relationship.

[00:22:33] [SPEAKER_02] If you were both in London, how was it long-distance?

[00:22:36] [SPEAKER_01] Because I was working in India, and a couple of months after we met, he moved to Switzerland.

[00:22:41] [SPEAKER_02] And then you moved to London and not Switzerland?

[00:22:43] [SPEAKER_01] No, I just stayed in India. And then we got married, and both of us moved to London.

[00:22:47] [SPEAKER_02] So you started living together once you were married in London? Which is great for you because you love the rain.

[00:22:52] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah.

[00:22:53] [SPEAKER_02] It's different. It's like more urban and a little grayer and darker and dirtier, right?

[00:22:58] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, it's very busy.

[00:23:00] [SPEAKER_02] You got divorced after three months, but how long had you known each other and been kind of liking each other?

[00:23:06] [SPEAKER_01] Almost two years, but it was mostly, there was no Zoom at that time. You know, once a week, we'll talk on the phone. We'll email each other every day. In those two years, we met once.

[00:23:17] [SPEAKER_04] What?

[00:23:17] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. Like, after he went to Switzerland. I did try to break up this one time. Like, he said, I'll be coming back in a few months, few months. And I was like, it's been over a year. And I tried to break up. But then, oh God, this is so embarrassing. Like, he called my mom and my mom was like, you're heartless. You're trying to leave. You. He loves you. Yeah.

[00:23:40] [SPEAKER_02] You bring shame on family. Your words. Do you think he was cheating on you?

[00:23:45] [SPEAKER_01] He was.

[00:23:46] [SPEAKER_02] People are predictable and men are more predictable.

[00:23:49] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. I wish I knew that.

[00:23:50] [SPEAKER_02] Well, what would have changed for you if you knew that?

[00:23:53] [SPEAKER_01] Oh, I would never obviously have married him.

[00:23:55] [SPEAKER_02] But do you think the woman he was cheating on with knew that he was engaged?

[00:23:58] [SPEAKER_01] No. She had no clue.

[00:24:00] [SPEAKER_02] But is premarital sex common then?

[00:24:02] [SPEAKER_01] He was dating someone when he moved to Switzerland and she was not Indian.

[00:24:06] [SPEAKER_02] So it's okay for him.

[00:24:08] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. It's okay for him.

[00:24:09] [SPEAKER_02] All right. You didn't know it. You found out later. You're living in what part of London?

[00:24:14] [SPEAKER_01] Central London.

[00:24:15] [SPEAKER_02] Quickly realized, no, we're done.

[00:24:17] [SPEAKER_01] It wasn't unfortunately that simple. You know, in 2008 when Lehman Brothers fell.

[00:24:22] [SPEAKER_02] And let me just tell you something you're not going to like about me. I loved it.

[00:24:25] [SPEAKER_01] Me too.

[00:24:25] [SPEAKER_02] I know it hurt people's lives big. I just hated that they got bailed out. I was there. I went to jail. I was still in jail.

[00:24:32] [SPEAKER_01] So the reason I loved it is because I was supposed to get a job there. Like I hadn't left my company and I wanted to come back to India, but I was sort of like trapped. I needed someone to buy a ticket for me. But when the financial crisis started, I was, I used it. I was like, oh, I shouldn't lose my job right now. Because if you lose your job, then we are both jobless. So let me go back. And then you stay here.

[00:24:57] [SPEAKER_02] Wow. So he got to just chill and not work?

[00:24:59] [SPEAKER_01] No. It was not chilling. I'd rather have worked. It was not just the cheating. You know, he would just make me cry for, he'd not talk to me. And later on he told me, I asked him like, you were cheating on me all this time. And why did you treat me so poorly? And he said, every time I cried, he felt like God. He had that much power over me.

[00:25:20] [SPEAKER_03] And you know what a lot of people want to feel like? God.

[00:25:23] [SPEAKER_01] But don't you feel like God when you save someone?

[00:25:25] [SPEAKER_02] I don't save people.

[00:25:28] [SPEAKER_01] You should try it. Save an animal.

[00:25:30] [SPEAKER_02] If there was a struggling zebra, sure, I would try to help. But I would be a little scared it would hurt me. But yeah, I mean, I'm not like a cruel person.

[00:25:38] [SPEAKER_01] Or a dog. I know you love dogs.

[00:25:39] [SPEAKER_02] I do? Who doesn't love dogs? Well, one of the reasons I had to move from one place to another place here is because the little barking dogs. So let's be clear. We're all on the same page. The little dogs that bark a lot are not dogs. They're rats that look like dogs that also can bark. The other ones, they're all different breeds. I get it. Those are dogs. Let's fast forward here a little bit. Tell me how you break up. Tell me how you get to America. Tell me about the second guy.

[00:26:04] [SPEAKER_01] So I figured out, which is a long story, applying for divorce was very difficult because in India, you have to be married at least for a year before you can even apply for divorce. Then my family was not supportive. I pretty much took this job in the U.S. so that I can escape. I was uninvited from weddings. There was this whole shame thing happening.

[00:26:28] [SPEAKER_01] So I got an offer with my company that I was working with in India and I moved here. You know, you might never guess the reason why I decided to stay.

[00:26:39] [SPEAKER_02] Oh, please let me try.

[00:26:41] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. Why do you think I would have stayed?

[00:26:44] [SPEAKER_02] Well, obviously the way you framed it isn't an obvious answer. Obvious answers would be the following. I fell in love with the city. Or I loved my job and my coworkers. Or I met a guy. Those aren't the answers. You want to give me a little hint? You want me to let me just...

[00:26:59] [SPEAKER_00] Safety.

[00:27:00] [SPEAKER_02] That's not a hint. That's an answer. When I asked for a hint, I didn't want you to give me the answer. I wanted to guess it. I felt safe here. Fine. I get... That makes complete sense.

[00:27:10] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. And it was like the most basic level of safety. I went to a Walmart next to my home at 8 o'clock in the evening. Bought some snacks. Came back to my apartment and was watching TV. And I felt like, oh, no one groped me. No one tried to hit me. Yeah. It was that unsafe in the city where I lived. But...

[00:27:29] [SPEAKER_04] So London was less safe?

[00:27:31] [SPEAKER_01] Oh, not London. From London, I moved back to Bangalore in India. And Bangalore was not very safe.

[00:27:38] [SPEAKER_02] And then you went to Seattle.

[00:27:40] [SPEAKER_01] Then... No. I went to Minneapolis.

[00:27:43] [SPEAKER_02] Oh, and that's a nice city.

[00:27:44] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. It was nice.

[00:27:46] [SPEAKER_02] And so when did you jump out in Seattle?

[00:27:49] [SPEAKER_01] 2016. I moved around a lot because of my job.

[00:27:53] [SPEAKER_02] Okay. Are you a financial consultant?

[00:27:55] [SPEAKER_01] No. Tech.

[00:27:56] [SPEAKER_02] Oh, God. Can you lend me some money?

[00:27:58] [SPEAKER_01] I don't have any.

[00:28:00] [SPEAKER_02] Why not? What would you do with it?

[00:28:02] [SPEAKER_01] Send it back home for the first 20 years. That's what we do.

[00:28:05] [SPEAKER_02] Fucking hell. I admire that, man. That's really incredible.

[00:28:10] [SPEAKER_01] Well, that's our culture. My dad did it.

[00:28:12] [SPEAKER_03] You don't go by, but you were a rebel.

[00:28:15] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. A bit too late.

[00:28:17] [SPEAKER_03] I don't need to know the details. Where does husband two come in?

[00:28:20] [SPEAKER_01] So then I moved to the U.S. And I was just focusing on work. So this one is very difficult to talk about. A family friend introduced him to my mom. And that's how we got connected. I was in the States and he was in London.

[00:28:38] [SPEAKER_02] Okay. But he's from Indian descent.

[00:28:40] [SPEAKER_01] Indian descent. And my mother's side of the family knew him. My father's side of the family knew him. I had friends who had worked with him.

[00:28:49] [SPEAKER_02] I can tell by the tone of your voice. And also you said something before that he was way worse than the first one. And the first one wasn't so great. So he did some bad shit to you. You don't have to talk about it.

[00:29:00] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. This one's very hard to talk about. And you know what the interesting thing is? So the second marriage ended in 2014. And I used to like make fun of myself. I used to compare myself to Ross from Friends. What? Yeah. And I had to...

[00:29:18] [SPEAKER_02] You do not look like Ross from Friends.

[00:29:20] [SPEAKER_01] Not like that. But Ross from Friends, he gets married like twice and gets divorced just like that.

[00:29:25] [SPEAKER_02] Ah.

[00:29:26] [SPEAKER_04] Okay. Okay.

[00:29:26] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. And I had this amazing life for a few years. I was traveling and I was dating someone new. The thing is my brain had suppressed most of those memories and the details. So I did not remember a good chunk of my childhood, my early 20s, the things that happened with my second ex-husband. I did not remember my suicide attempt. I have. So I had cut my wrist and I have these scars on my wrist. But I never stopped and thought, oh, what is that?

[00:29:57] [SPEAKER_02] The brain is, the mind is just an amazing thing that makes us. Yeah. So just to be clear, when you tried to end your life when you were 24.

[00:30:05] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:30:06] [SPEAKER_02] This was during or shortly after the marriage.

[00:30:09] [SPEAKER_01] It was the day when I went to apply for the divorce. And the superintendent, so the, to paint your picture. The court is not even a proper standing building. It's like a shed. And the person, the superintendent who takes the application started yelling at me. He said that, oh, a man cheat. Like a smart woman is supposed to deal with that. You're a secondhand woman. Whoa. And blah, blah, blah. Yeah.

[00:30:34] [SPEAKER_02] Does that have to do with caste system as well?

[00:30:37] [SPEAKER_01] No. Misogyny.

[00:30:39] [SPEAKER_02] Right.

[00:30:41] [SPEAKER_01] Then I remember, what I remember last is, I remember taking a bunch of paper from his desk, throwing it at him and saying that I will sue you and I'll sue him. And then I screamed and I fainted.

[00:30:53] [SPEAKER_04] Okay.

[00:30:53] [SPEAKER_01] Then I remember the next day waking up in my bedroom with my, a bandage on my wrist. And I have these flashes of memory come back every now and then, like in the ER and my dad banging on the room. But I don't know if that's a nightmare or if it's real. I don't even know what I used to cut my wrist. I was in my bedroom. Like, when did I do that?

[00:31:13] [SPEAKER_02] Wow. Okay. Quick digression. I need to know where you lived across your life. Just, I'll start and then you finish.

[00:31:20] [SPEAKER_01] Okay.

[00:31:21] [SPEAKER_02] Dubai. Go.

[00:31:22] [SPEAKER_01] Dubai. Then in India, in Kerala, Trishore, Hyderabad, Andhra Pradesh, Karnataka, Bangalore. I'm stating the city and the state.

[00:31:33] [SPEAKER_04] Thank you.

[00:31:33] [SPEAKER_01] No. And then I moved to London. Then I moved to the US. Minneapolis.

[00:31:38] [SPEAKER_02] You said you would say the city and the state.

[00:31:40] [SPEAKER_01] Oh. Minneapolis, Minnesota.

[00:31:43] [SPEAKER_02] Go on.

[00:31:44] [SPEAKER_01] Then Houston, Texas.

[00:31:46] [SPEAKER_02] Oh, sorry.

[00:31:47] [SPEAKER_01] Atlanta, Georgia.

[00:31:48] [SPEAKER_02] Wow.

[00:31:49] [SPEAKER_01] Los Angeles, California. Yeah. Then Seattle. Washington.

[00:31:53] [SPEAKER_02] Washington. Why are you, what are you sniffing?

[00:31:55] [SPEAKER_01] I'm having a bit of like trauma response. So, the Vicks inhaler.

[00:32:00] [SPEAKER_02] That helps when you're feeling nervous?

[00:32:02] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, it helps with like smell and uh.

[00:32:05] [SPEAKER_02] Should we stop for a few minutes?

[00:32:06] [SPEAKER_01] Maybe.

[00:32:07] [SPEAKER_02] Okay. No, no. You can hang up on me if you want to. I hope you don't.

[00:32:11] [SPEAKER_01] I don't want to hang up. Let me just go splash some water on my face. I do want to talk about them. It's just my nervous system and my mind are not in alignment. Okay, I'm back.

[00:32:21] [SPEAKER_02] I'm glad you're back. Hopefully, maybe feeling a little better. In all the years you've been thinking about ending your life, I imagine to varying degrees, what stopped you from trying again?

[00:32:31] [SPEAKER_01] This also, like I was looking through your questions and the myth to dispel, it ties to it when we think that people who die by suicide are weak or are not brave. I'm like, I don't have the courage. The reason I try to slash my wrist is because I was probably under some medication. I don't remember. But when I try to think of doing it myself, like in the last one year, I've made a list

[00:33:00] [SPEAKER_01] of all the reasons, like all the ways, like hanging or mixing medication with alcohol. And I'm like, what if I don't die? And, you know, that'll be worse. And on top of that, I have this desire that my last breath, I want it to be peaceful and with someone else.

[00:33:20] [SPEAKER_02] Do you have anybody in your life who, if you chose to take your life, would sit with you?

[00:33:23] [SPEAKER_01] No, I'd have to pay someone, which is why I was researching.

[00:33:28] [SPEAKER_02] There's no job that exists like that.

[00:33:30] [SPEAKER_01] In Switzerland, right? Like the...

[00:33:34] [SPEAKER_02] It's complicated though.

[00:33:35] [SPEAKER_01] It is difficult, but that's the only way I think I can end my life. I don't have the courage to...

[00:33:41] [SPEAKER_02] What's crazy is if you did have somebody who did that, they could probably go to jail.

[00:33:45] [SPEAKER_01] Exactly. And I cannot tell anyone either.

[00:33:47] [SPEAKER_02] So what does that do for your mental health or just health?

[00:33:52] [SPEAKER_01] It worsens it. Like it's already an isolating experience to go through something like this and then not be able to talk about it.

[00:34:00] [SPEAKER_02] Right. I mean, at least we're talking about it here.

[00:34:02] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:34:03] [SPEAKER_02] Let me know, we're not friends though. This is like a unique dynamic. How long did you stay in the hospital? Do you remember?

[00:34:08] [SPEAKER_01] I was in there for three days. So that was when... The way it was explained to me is that I fainted and my nervous system goes into a freeze state. So I don't feel anything and I survive it. And the memories were also not accurate. So I was able to have like a good life. I was able to move back here from London and, you know, become a citizen and all that stuff. And then the memories started coming back as flashbacks and nightmares.

[00:34:38] [SPEAKER_01] And that was my first like severe flashback. So a friend of mine took me to ER. I stayed in the hospital for three days.

[00:34:46] [SPEAKER_02] That was in the States?

[00:34:47] [SPEAKER_01] In the States, in Seattle.

[00:34:48] [SPEAKER_02] But what about after your attempt in India?

[00:34:52] [SPEAKER_01] Oh, they didn't take me to the hospital. My sister and her husband are doctors. I think they just bandaged it up. And two days later, they just sent me back to the town where I was working.

[00:35:01] [SPEAKER_02] Did anybody ask you what happened?

[00:35:04] [SPEAKER_01] Never.

[00:35:05] [SPEAKER_02] Isn't that interesting? And they know what it was. Like they know. People being like, you don't usually have a deep gash in your wrist with that. And nobody said anything.

[00:35:15] [SPEAKER_01] Nobody said anything.

[00:35:17] [SPEAKER_02] And we're not talking strangers here. We're talking family.

[00:35:19] [SPEAKER_01] No, I remember my mom. My mom was the one who changed the bandages. I remember looking at her face and it was like the stoic expression. Never said anything.

[00:35:29] [SPEAKER_02] Has she ever said anything since?

[00:35:30] [SPEAKER_01] About that, no.

[00:35:32] [SPEAKER_02] In Seattle, when you started having the flashbacks, at some point you went to a hospital. How was that experience?

[00:35:38] [SPEAKER_01] It was very hard. You know, it was very hard. I did not understand what was happening to me. And then I'm stuck in this place with a lot of strangers. And there are classes. You know, like I went in my pajamas.

[00:35:54] [SPEAKER_02] They're not classes. They're called groups.

[00:35:57] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, groups. Whatever you want to call them.

[00:35:58] [SPEAKER_02] And I'm assuming, let me just take a guess here. I love that you, the image of the pajamas. I'm pretty sure that they were teaching you things that would be typically geared for a seven-year-old.

[00:36:09] [SPEAKER_01] Oh my God. Every time I hear someone talk about boundaries, I have a flashback to the hospital. It was actually a class. Like they had a whiteboard. And this woman came in and was like, we'll talk about opaque boundaries and porous boundaries. And I was sitting there cold in my dirty pajamas looking at everyone thinking, is this a joke?

[00:36:32] [SPEAKER_02] The answer is yes.

[00:36:33] [SPEAKER_01] This has to be a joke. Yeah.

[00:36:35] [SPEAKER_02] Three days?

[00:36:36] [SPEAKER_01] Three days.

[00:36:37] [SPEAKER_02] Standard. Yeah. You got a cat?

[00:36:39] [SPEAKER_01] I have one cat and two dogs.

[00:36:41] [SPEAKER_02] Well, why aren't they in the picture right now? What are they doing?

[00:36:44] [SPEAKER_01] So Bruno is 19 and a half. He's napping. That's what he does.

[00:36:48] [SPEAKER_02] That's all he does, right? Sure.

[00:36:50] [SPEAKER_01] That's all he does. And eats. Ru is in his crate. He is three months. He will be my psychiatric service dog.

[00:36:58] [SPEAKER_02] Oh, awesome. What kind of dog is he?

[00:36:59] [SPEAKER_01] He's a golden doodle.

[00:37:00] [SPEAKER_02] So is that going to be like a bigger golden looking with curly hair?

[00:37:04] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. The thing with golden doodles is you can never tell.

[00:37:09] [SPEAKER_02] Golden doodle.

[00:37:10] [SPEAKER_01] It's you. You're important. Not Sean. My cat. My cat.

[00:37:14] [SPEAKER_02] Literally gave me the greatest compliment, said she loved my podcast, then says her cat's important. Sean's not important. If I'm understanding, you don't have a second attempt, right? There was the one attempt you don't really remember. You're not going to try again or you haven't tried again, in large part because you're afraid it won't work.

[00:37:30] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah.

[00:37:30] [SPEAKER_02] There won't be anyone there with you.

[00:37:32] [SPEAKER_04] That's true.

[00:37:33] [SPEAKER_02] But I promise you, I'm going to ask you, I'm going to ask you breadcrumb, going to ask you a question about a pink and purple pill very soon. And I'm going to write down the answer right now. And I'll see if I'm right. You listed off a bunch of stuff earlier. I don't even know if I recognize all these. And I'm sure it's taking place over years. So I think there's two different lists. What's PHP? PHP.

[00:37:53] [SPEAKER_01] Partial hospitalization program.

[00:37:55] [SPEAKER_02] Okay. Zero to 10. How effective was it?

[00:37:58] [SPEAKER_01] Zero.

[00:37:59] [SPEAKER_02] Oh, wow. That's really low. What's an IOP?

[00:38:02] [SPEAKER_01] Intensive outpatient program.

[00:38:04] [SPEAKER_02] Zero to 10.

[00:38:05] [SPEAKER_01] Two.

[00:38:06] [SPEAKER_02] Better than the other one. 40 day. 40 day what?

[00:38:10] [SPEAKER_01] 40 day. I stopped it at day 30.

[00:38:13] [SPEAKER_02] But what was it?

[00:38:14] [SPEAKER_01] It was a PTSD specific treatment center.

[00:38:18] [SPEAKER_02] Stopped at day 30 of 40. Tells me it was probably under five.

[00:38:23] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:38:23] [SPEAKER_02] Other things you've tried. So TMS. Zero to 10. I've never done this before like this. I like it.

[00:38:30] [SPEAKER_01] TMS, I would say negative 10. Because...

[00:38:33] [SPEAKER_02] Wait, wait, wait. That's how people say 200%.

[00:38:36] [SPEAKER_01] It actually made me worse.

[00:38:38] [SPEAKER_02] Okay. So we can go negative.

[00:38:40] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:38:41] [SPEAKER_02] Okay. Negative 10. Other treatments?

[00:38:44] [SPEAKER_01] EMDR. I did it with a buzzer.

[00:38:47] [SPEAKER_02] But it's like a manual physical thing you're doing.

[00:38:50] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:38:50] [SPEAKER_02] Zero to 10.

[00:38:51] [SPEAKER_01] I think that helped. I would say seven.

[00:38:54] [SPEAKER_02] Nice. The EMDR is winning so far. What else?

[00:38:57] [SPEAKER_01] Ketamine assisted therapy.

[00:39:00] [SPEAKER_02] Oh, I'm really interested in this answer.

[00:39:02] [SPEAKER_01] So what are we rating? The effectiveness we're rating?

[00:39:06] [SPEAKER_02] Is that what you want to rate?

[00:39:07] [SPEAKER_01] As we're talking about it, I'm realizing that when I say EMDR worked, like seven, it did not make me feel better, but it got me closer to the truth.

[00:39:17] [SPEAKER_02] Wait a second. When you... What do you... Wait, we got to talk about truth.

[00:39:21] [SPEAKER_01] Yes.

[00:39:22] [SPEAKER_02] So... So... Because a lot of the stuff we're talking about with you is things you don't remember.

[00:39:27] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah.

[00:39:27] [SPEAKER_02] But it's a truth that you want, because you said earlier you have an obsession with the truth. But I would also imagine sometimes knowing the truth is... It's like two steps back, one step forward. Like it's not always easy to hear what happened.

[00:39:42] [SPEAKER_01] No. Yeah. I'd rather know than not know.

[00:39:45] [SPEAKER_02] I'm different than you. Shocker. The older I get, the less I want to know.

[00:39:49] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:39:49] [SPEAKER_02] I want to know more about other people, and that actually might not be a coincidence. Like I just don't... Like I want to live in a bubble.

[00:39:55] [SPEAKER_01] Oh, I'm jealous of you.

[00:39:57] [SPEAKER_02] Please don't...

[00:39:57] [SPEAKER_01] I wish I could stop digging.

[00:39:59] [SPEAKER_02] Such a mistake if you want... Don't be jealous of me, but do whatever you want. The ketamine then is... We don't need a number, but it could be a color, but let's go with numbers.

[00:40:08] [SPEAKER_01] Ketamine, it was helpful. I would say eight.

[00:40:11] [SPEAKER_02] Eight. Eight out of 10. That's like a B. That's good. And you were probably like a B plus to an A student, I'm guessing. If you're in tech, right? Got to travel all over making all that money that you send back to India. And Seattle's not... Let's just say what it is. Seattle's not a cheap place to live.

[00:40:27] [SPEAKER_01] Oh, yeah. But I live... Like I always used to live way below my means. And thankfully now it has helped me. Yeah. So I sometimes joke like I'm not the kind of tech person who drives a Tesla. My car is, I think, 11 or 12 years old at this point.

[00:40:42] [SPEAKER_02] What kind of car? Is it like a minivan?

[00:40:44] [SPEAKER_01] No. A minicooper. A countryman, but base.

[00:40:47] [SPEAKER_02] Oh, but it is a countryman.

[00:40:49] [SPEAKER_01] It is a countryman. Come on. I don't fit in the small thing.

[00:40:52] [SPEAKER_02] And are you in central Seattle or a little bit outside?

[00:40:55] [SPEAKER_01] A little bit north.

[00:40:56] [SPEAKER_02] Okay. But not in Vancouver?

[00:40:59] No.

[00:40:59] [SPEAKER_02] Therapy for 18 years?

[00:41:01] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:41:02] [SPEAKER_02] On and off or just straight through?

[00:41:04] [SPEAKER_01] Mostly straight through. But since I moved around so much, there is always that gap of finding a new therapist and establishing care and stuff like that.

[00:41:12] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. Is there a type of therapy that you think has been most helpful for you?

[00:41:15] [SPEAKER_01] I think what I'm doing right now, somatic therapy, it sounds more than what it is. But it's basically like connecting with your body, noticing what sensations are showing up, that kind of stuff.

[00:41:27] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah.

[00:41:27] [SPEAKER_01] And helpful. Then the next was cognitive behavior therapy, which in the beginning I thought it was helping. You know, understanding all these cognitive distortions. And then I was like, it's just a loop. I understand the distortion. The distortion keeps happening. Then I'll identify it again. It doesn't change anything.

[00:41:46] [SPEAKER_02] You ever do DBT?

[00:41:48] [SPEAKER_01] DBT, CBT.

[00:41:49] [SPEAKER_02] DBT is hard, man.

[00:41:51] [SPEAKER_01] So for me, what happened is after my TMS ended, I still have cognitive issues. So for me, like writing, reading, doing worksheets doesn't work at all.

[00:42:03] [SPEAKER_02] Hold up. Hold up. You're in tech.

[00:42:06] [SPEAKER_01] I'm not anymore. I lost my job.

[00:42:07] [SPEAKER_02] You lost your job.

[00:42:09] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:42:09] [SPEAKER_02] In part because of what we're talking about.

[00:42:11] [SPEAKER_01] Mainly because of what we're talking about.

[00:42:13] [SPEAKER_02] Are you on disability?

[00:42:14] [SPEAKER_01] Through my employer, yes.

[00:42:16] [SPEAKER_02] All right. You got a good employer.

[00:42:17] [SPEAKER_01] So, yeah. And I paid into that disability insurance for 13 years.

[00:42:23] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, fair. Should be great.

[00:42:25] [SPEAKER_01] So since I got disabled at the job, they'll cover me for two years.

[00:42:29] [SPEAKER_02] How long has it been since you've been in that position?

[00:42:33] [SPEAKER_01] A year.

[00:42:34] [SPEAKER_02] A year of not working. All right. I'm going to talk about that year. But before that, because I'm looping myself, was it DBT?

[00:42:41] [SPEAKER_01] DBT. Okay. So I was not able to do all these worksheets that they have. Then there is CPT, cognitive processing therapy. And I also don't know what I'm feeling. And the feelings wheel has so many words on it.

[00:42:54] [SPEAKER_02] All right.

[00:42:55] [SPEAKER_01] What's the difference between distressed and sad? I don't know.

[00:42:58] [SPEAKER_02] Right. I think our minds work similarly that way. That's why all these personality tests, I'm like so confused. I'm like, what do you mean by that word? Or it depends on my mood. I'm like, did you try talk therapy?

[00:43:10] [SPEAKER_01] I did. Yeah.

[00:43:11] [SPEAKER_02] I mean, that's the baseline or psychoanalysis.

[00:43:14] [SPEAKER_01] Yes. And that's what I've done majority of this time.

[00:43:17] [SPEAKER_02] You've done almost everything.

[00:43:19] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:43:20] [SPEAKER_02] And you're still suicidal.

[00:43:21] [SPEAKER_01] Yes.

[00:43:22] [SPEAKER_02] Let that resonate with everyone who hears this.

[00:43:25] [SPEAKER_01] So just to add to that, you might have heard this book, Body Keeps the Score. So I made a list of all the treatments listed in it.

[00:43:33] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah.

[00:43:34] [SPEAKER_01] Started checking them off. I will try everything that is available and affordable to me at this point. And if it doesn't get better, then my quality of life is so bad. I used to have a thriving life. And now I cannot even get out of bed in the morning. And I'm suffering. So I approach death and suicide from a point of letting my own suffering end. It is like finally getting to take some rest.

[00:44:01] [SPEAKER_02] How many things are on the list?

[00:44:03] [SPEAKER_01] What's left?

[00:44:04] [SPEAKER_02] What's left?

[00:44:05] [SPEAKER_01] There's nothing left.

[00:44:06] [SPEAKER_02] Okay. So what stops you now? Because you literally just said, mid-sentence and you stop, probably because I cut you off. Sorry. If I try all of them, dot, dot, dot, that makes me think, and they don't work, which they haven't, dot, dot, dot. Then what?

[00:44:24] [SPEAKER_01] Then what? That's a good question. So I don't have the courage to do it myself. I just don't.

[00:44:29] [SPEAKER_04] Okay. Okay.

[00:44:30] [SPEAKER_01] So I reached out to Pegasus in Switzerland and they're like, oh, you're relatively young age? And apparently they got sued several times in the last year. So they need a letter from my family.

[00:44:46] [SPEAKER_03] Oh, shit. But they have to take culture into account, no?

[00:44:51] [SPEAKER_01] I told them. My family is the problem. It's one of the main problems. But they wouldn't help.

[00:44:59] [SPEAKER_03] Then did you tell them that you are 42, but you feel 82?

[00:45:03] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:45:04] [SPEAKER_02] Doesn't count.

[00:45:05] [SPEAKER_01] Doesn't count.

[00:45:05] [SPEAKER_02] Do you know why? One reason. You already said it. It's one of the major reasons why the system here is fucking awful. You said it. You used the word. They got sued.

[00:45:14] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, they got sued.

[00:45:15] [SPEAKER_02] That is it.

[00:45:16] [SPEAKER_01] That's it.

[00:45:17] [SPEAKER_02] If it's not 100% it, it's like 99 plus percent it. You're 42. You're single. You live alone. I'm not emphasizing that you're single, that having a partner is the end. You've experienced having partners that created a lot of problems. Tell me a few things about your life that was thriving, that made it thriving.

[00:45:35] [SPEAKER_01] So I thought with my second assessment that I was going to die. I really thought that. And when I got out of it, I was like, I do not die. You know, every day is a gift. Right.

[00:45:47] [SPEAKER_04] Right.

[00:45:48] [SPEAKER_01] There was this hunger for life.

[00:45:50] [SPEAKER_04] Okay.

[00:45:50] [SPEAKER_01] So I started traveling all around the world. I would go for dance classes, learn to play a musical instrument. I learned to play a guy. What instrument?

[00:46:01] [SPEAKER_02] What instrument?

[00:46:03] [SPEAKER_01] Violin.

[00:46:04] [SPEAKER_02] Wow.

[00:46:05] [SPEAKER_01] And I...

[00:46:07] [SPEAKER_02] Now, remember you said you were jealous of me before?

[00:46:09] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:46:10] [SPEAKER_02] I'm jealous of you now, even though it's in the past.

[00:46:12] [SPEAKER_01] Well, I cannot play anymore.

[00:46:13] [SPEAKER_02] But I'm so jealous of your past.

[00:46:15] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:46:15] [SPEAKER_02] Not the second husband part.

[00:46:17] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. You don't get to pick and choose. I don't know.

[00:46:23] [SPEAKER_03] Okay. So that means if you're jealous of my bubble, you have to have the whole bubble. And you do not want that.

[00:46:31] [SPEAKER_02] We can trade. It won't happen now. One day in the future, if you want. Long email. We'll go through the whole thing. We'll see if we want to make the trade. I am guaranteeing you don't want to. And I probably don't want to either.

[00:46:42] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah.

[00:46:42] [SPEAKER_02] So those things stopped. Those fun, thriving, life-affirmed things slowly stopped, I assume.

[00:46:49] [SPEAKER_01] It happened very gradually. Like when you don't sleep for days at a stretch.

[00:46:54] [SPEAKER_02] 100%.

[00:46:55] [SPEAKER_01] And also, do you know what sleep paralysis is?

[00:46:58] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah.

[00:46:59] [SPEAKER_01] It's terrifying.

[00:47:01] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah.

[00:47:01] [SPEAKER_01] You know, it stops. So I have anhedonia. Other than my animals, I don't get joy from anything.

[00:47:09] [SPEAKER_02] Like this conversation is not joyful for you?

[00:47:11] [SPEAKER_01] Oh, man, no.

[00:47:12] Yeah.

[00:47:15] [SPEAKER_02] Wait a second. Zero to ten. How much joy is this conversation for you?

[00:47:19] [SPEAKER_01] Negative hundred.

[00:47:21] [SPEAKER_03] But you're laughing. You're sharing. You're expressing. But joy is not the word.

[00:47:27] [SPEAKER_01] Joy is in the word that comes to my mind. There is like a sense of relief.

[00:47:33] [SPEAKER_02] Okay.

[00:47:34] [SPEAKER_01] And I think that feeling of being seen and heard and not being judged. Like safety.

[00:47:39] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. But not joy.

[00:47:40] [SPEAKER_01] No. I think joy is overrated. I don't need to be joyful in my life.

[00:47:45] [SPEAKER_02] Joy is overrated is not a memoir title, but I fucking love it. And also, because really like it's the toxic shit, right? The toxic positivity. Yeah. And always aiming for that. And you fall short and then you feel. And then like it's 2026. So depending you look to your Joneses and the neighbors or you look outside or you're on Facebook. It's like it's impossible, man. You got to be so vigilant to take care of yourself and protect yourself. Your animals give you joy. And that's I know that's true.

[00:48:14] [SPEAKER_01] That's true. That's true.

[00:48:16] [SPEAKER_02] That you were, you're not accurate with what you just said.

[00:48:18] [SPEAKER_01] No, I do think joy is overrated. Like. No, no, no, no, no.

[00:48:22] [SPEAKER_02] You said there's nothing that brings you joy.

[00:48:23] [SPEAKER_01] Other than my animals. I did tell you that.

[00:48:25] [SPEAKER_02] Oh, you did. And nothing else. We can't identify one other thing in the world that brings you joy.

[00:48:31] [SPEAKER_01] Even things that I used to love like chocolate, food.

[00:48:34] [SPEAKER_02] I was going towards the food. Nothing.

[00:48:36] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. No.

[00:48:37] [SPEAKER_02] How many friends do you have right now?

[00:48:39] [SPEAKER_01] I have three very close friends. I've lost many friends in the last two years.

[00:48:43] [SPEAKER_02] The three close friends and you talk to them about your pain?

[00:48:46] [SPEAKER_01] Yes. Moderation.

[00:48:49] [SPEAKER_02] In moderation, right.

[00:48:50] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:48:51] [SPEAKER_02] How many of them know that we're talking?

[00:48:53] [SPEAKER_00] No one.

[00:48:54] [SPEAKER_02] How many of them are you going to tell about this conversation?

[00:48:56] [SPEAKER_00] No one.

[00:48:57] [SPEAKER_02] Are you going to share this conversation when it comes out?

[00:48:59] [SPEAKER_01] Nope.

[00:49:00] [SPEAKER_02] Are you going to listen to it?

[00:49:02] [SPEAKER_01] Yes.

[00:49:02] [SPEAKER_02] Why?

[00:49:03] [SPEAKER_01] I like listening to myself talk, I guess.

[00:49:07] [SPEAKER_04] That's so funny.

[00:49:10] [SPEAKER_01] No, because this has been, you know, like my story. Whenever someone would ask me what was your childhood like, I'd always say, oh, it was fine. Just normal. And even here, like even though we've, we're not, that's not the intention of this podcast, right? Like to dig into the details and I cannot.

[00:49:26] [SPEAKER_02] Wait, wait, wait, wait. I decide.

[00:49:28] [SPEAKER_01] Okay.

[00:49:29] [SPEAKER_02] It's my podcast.

[00:49:30] [SPEAKER_01] Sorry about that. Hold on.

[00:49:32] [SPEAKER_02] Wait a second. What do I not do on the podcast?

[00:49:33] [SPEAKER_01] As in like getting into each of the nitty gritty and details of childhood. Sometimes.

[00:49:42] [SPEAKER_02] It depends if it, it depends if the story needs it, then it absolutely, yours just doesn't need it unless you think otherwise.

[00:49:48] [SPEAKER_01] No, no, no. And I cannot either. I cannot share that without going into like a panic attack.

[00:49:55] [SPEAKER_04] Okay.

[00:49:55] [SPEAKER_01] But for me, it is a first step to putting together my story. You know, since I have so many gaps in my story, I don't know what my story is really.

[00:50:06] [SPEAKER_02] If you're not going to end your life and you're 42 and you live an average life span, let's say you got at least 35 more years. By the time you get there, medicine will have changed. You're probably going to make it to over 80. Now the laws could change. And so that might make it easier for you. But how do you imagine living all that time?

[00:50:23] [SPEAKER_01] So that's the thing. So Pegasus is one of the options. Then there is Dignitas. And then there is Exit International. So Exit International, they will take your applications only after you're like 50 years of age. So that makes it like eight more years-ish.

[00:50:41] [SPEAKER_03] Can we get you a fake birth certificate?

[00:50:43] [SPEAKER_01] Is that possible? In India, sure, it would happen.

[00:50:46] [SPEAKER_02] You didn't hear it from me.

[00:50:48] [SPEAKER_01] Can you help me?

[00:50:50] [SPEAKER_02] I don't have that skill. I'd probably be wealthy. I'm poor. That's probably a really high profitable thing. Dangerous. So wait. All right. Pegasus needed family consent. Exit International leads you to be seven to eight years older. And what's up with Dignitas?

[00:51:05] [SPEAKER_00] Exit is 50.

[00:51:06] [SPEAKER_02] So you got to wait, man. Let me reframe the question. Let me reframe the question. Seven and a half more years. You're not going back to work?

[00:51:14] [SPEAKER_01] I don't know. See, I don't have... There is a financial constraint. Like at some point, the disability will stop. And I should be able to make some sort of income. I don't know.

[00:51:26] [SPEAKER_02] Like part-time tech geek stuff?

[00:51:28] [SPEAKER_01] My brain doesn't work anymore.

[00:51:30] [SPEAKER_02] Do you think that's from the treatment as much as it is from nature?

[00:51:33] [SPEAKER_01] For me, it is from the treatment. Like right after the treatment ended is when I had the onset of these symptoms.

[00:51:39] [SPEAKER_02] Do you know what I'm thinking when I hear my brain doesn't work anymore?

[00:51:42] [SPEAKER_01] No.

[00:51:42] [SPEAKER_02] Let me ask you one more time. I know you have some cognitive challenges. I respect that. Still going to push you hard.

[00:51:49] [SPEAKER_04] Okay.

[00:51:50] [SPEAKER_02] You're talking to Sean.

[00:51:51] [SPEAKER_04] Uh-huh.

[00:51:52] [SPEAKER_02] Host of the podcast that you quote-unquote love. You've been listening for over a year.

[00:51:57] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:51:58] [SPEAKER_02] What do I think when I hear my brain doesn't work anymore?

[00:52:02] [SPEAKER_01] That we're getting old.

[00:52:03] [SPEAKER_02] And what is it possible?

[00:52:06] [SPEAKER_01] I don't know.

[00:52:07] [SPEAKER_02] Memoir title.

[00:52:09] [SPEAKER_01] Ew. That's such a boring title.

[00:52:11] [SPEAKER_02] You can judge it all you want.

[00:52:13] [SPEAKER_01] Who is going to buy a book named My Brain Doesn't Work Anymore?

[00:52:17] [SPEAKER_02] Probably at least one of your friends. Number two, let me tell you something then. When you're in the phase of creation, I don't mean like creation of the universe or creation of a child. When you're making things, you can say that's bad, but ideas create new ideas.

[00:52:38] [SPEAKER_04] Right.

[00:52:39] [SPEAKER_02] Number one, nobody's writing the book. So we're just going to have a title and a subtitle. I think you're absolutely spot on. Notice I'm throwing a little like British in there. To say, ooh, no one would buy that memoir title, which I respect. Two, buyability matters. What you're doing is saying I'm not very good at what I'm doing. So now I feel this challenge to be better.

[00:53:02] [SPEAKER_04] What?

[00:53:03] [SPEAKER_02] You said, ooh. So now I want to do it better. I want to make a better title for you. But the problem with you is you're going to dislike everything I say.

[00:53:10] [SPEAKER_01] How do you know that?

[00:53:11] [SPEAKER_02] I know it. I just say no matter what.

[00:53:14] [SPEAKER_01] You're ruining it now. You're in your own head.

[00:53:16] [SPEAKER_02] I'm always in my own head. But I gave you Joy is Overrated. I gave you My Brain Doesn't Work Anymore. Those aren't final.

[00:53:25] [SPEAKER_03] Those are ideas. You know what another idea is? Here's another one you'll hate. You'll hate this.

[00:53:30] [SPEAKER_00] Okay. Tell me.

[00:53:32] [SPEAKER_02] Frozen. You're not going to accept black sheep, brown sheep.

[00:53:37] [SPEAKER_01] That's actually not.

[00:53:38] [SPEAKER_02] Wait, wait. Say it again. Sorry about what you're doing.

[00:53:39] [SPEAKER_01] That's not bad. Black sheep, brown sheep. Yeah. Or it could be like baba sheep. Black or brown.

[00:53:45] [SPEAKER_02] I think I'll make the final decision. You can do. What do you like? When you attack, were you like manager sales? Are you like the software engineer?

[00:53:54] [SPEAKER_01] Software engineer. Right.

[00:53:55] [SPEAKER_02] I think I should be the one that makes the final decision on the title. Respect. You stay in your lane. I'll stay in mine.

[00:54:01] [SPEAKER_01] I think you'll like the title I have in mine.

[00:54:03] [SPEAKER_02] Oh, wait. That's the thing. So after all of that, an hour ago, you said, I have a title. And I said, let's not say it yet. Now, before you say it, I'm going to be just as honest with you as you were with me.

[00:54:15] [SPEAKER_01] You should be.

[00:54:16] [SPEAKER_02] I mean, I'll probably have a softer tone because you were pretty rough with me. But go ahead. I'm ready. I'm ready for it.

[00:54:22] [SPEAKER_01] Are you going to cry? I'm sorry. I can't be mean.

[00:54:26] [SPEAKER_02] Wait, is that the title? Are you going to cry? Is the title?

[00:54:28] [SPEAKER_01] No, no, no. Fuck the hero's journey.

[00:54:31] [SPEAKER_02] Say it again.

[00:54:32] [SPEAKER_01] Fuck the hero's journey.

[00:54:34] [SPEAKER_02] Please describe to the audience what I'm doing right now. What just happened? I'll do it again just so that audience can.

[00:54:39] [SPEAKER_01] You're disappointed.

[00:54:40] [SPEAKER_02] No, just describe what I'm doing. Don't project. Don't give it. Don't just. What am I doing?

[00:54:45] [SPEAKER_01] Taken off your beautiful glasses. There is a expression on your face. I'm struggling to read. Touching your beard with one hand.

[00:54:56] [SPEAKER_02] Fluid flow, I'll call it. That I like about the way it comes off and reaches my ears. Fuck the hero's journey. What people don't know is actually my dream podcast is not this. It's just to talk about memoir titles.

[00:55:10] [SPEAKER_00] Oh my God.

[00:55:11] [SPEAKER_02] But.

[00:55:12] [SPEAKER_00] That is a great idea.

[00:55:13] [SPEAKER_02] I think so too. I am excellent with ideas that make zero money and lose me money. Like if you want the person out there, if you're hearing this, wherever you are in the world, you want an idea that you'll spend a lot of time doing to make no money. Maybe you're helping people. Maybe you're not. Please reach out to me. I'm fucking amazing at this. I like that you're willing to curse in a memoir title. You are bringing up a hero's journey, which is pretty commonly understood. Like a lot of people know what it means.

[00:55:43] [SPEAKER_02] So if you said like fuck the, and there was like some random town, nobody knew it. Doesn't help. So you're doing a lot of things good there. Now does it need a subtitle or not?

[00:55:52] [SPEAKER_00] I don't know. What do you think?

[00:55:55] [SPEAKER_02] I think I need to know why you're choosing that as your memoir title first.

[00:55:58] [SPEAKER_01] Because of the reasons I told you, like, you know, that hero's journey sort of, how do you say it?

[00:56:04] [SPEAKER_02] Recovery arc?

[00:56:05] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. Recovery arc.

[00:56:07] [SPEAKER_02] Not always.

[00:56:07] [SPEAKER_01] But that's not the truth. And that's not widely understood.

[00:56:11] [SPEAKER_02] I actually, I don't think the hero's journey is always a recovery arc. That's what I was saying.

[00:56:15] [SPEAKER_01] It isn't. And most of the books that you read or the podcasts you listen to or the stories you listen to are about the hero's journey.

[00:56:23] [SPEAKER_02] Not this guy, but okay. So you identify with it because you're not, it's not how your life is.

[00:56:29] [SPEAKER_01] It's not how my life is. And I also heard, do you know who Jason Kander is?

[00:56:34] [SPEAKER_03] No.

[00:56:35] [SPEAKER_01] So he has PTSD. He was Obama's, when Obama was asked who would make a good president before Obama left office, he said Jason Kander.

[00:56:45] [SPEAKER_04] Wow.

[00:56:46] [SPEAKER_01] And he has PTSD. So he now works in a different domain altogether. He said this, like, we're brainwashed to think about life as this three act. And the first act, you establish the character. And the second one, they go through this hard thing. And the third one, there is a single act of redemption. And it's all happily ever after. And he gives an example. Like, you know, if you see Top Gun, the movies like that.

[00:57:16] [SPEAKER_02] Formula.

[00:57:17] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. Yeah. If there was, if it was real life, then Maverick would be going to therapy. Working on his grave.

[00:57:25] [SPEAKER_02] So you're saying he wouldn't be like the final scene, wouldn't be on the motorcycle with the beautiful girl? No.

[00:57:30] [SPEAKER_04] No.

[00:57:31] [SPEAKER_02] Fuck the hero's journey, man. I wish I had just kept a record of all the memoir title ideas and ultimately the memoirs themselves. Some of the hardest interviews or conversations I have are people who come in, they already have the memoir done. I'm like, I can't help you. What's my role even here? What am I doing? What are we talking about?

[00:57:48] [SPEAKER_01] Well, it's not fair because I've listened to so many of your episodes. So when you ask these questions, I was thinking, what would be mine?

[00:57:55] [SPEAKER_02] Of course. That's a benefit I have is that people have listened before. So they kind of have some ideas of the questions, even though I send them. And I'm going to give you a green light on that.

[00:58:03] [SPEAKER_04] Thank you.

[00:58:04] [SPEAKER_02] I'm going to give you a green light on the fuck the hero's journey. And you don't have to credit me because I didn't come up with it. Normally I charge a commission, but you're broke. Of the diagnoses, and I'm sure there have been plenty that you have gotten over the years, which do you agree with, if any?

[00:58:16] [SPEAKER_00] Well, PTSD.

[00:58:16] [SPEAKER_02] Do you ever wish that the attempt you barely remember at 24 had worked?

[00:58:22] [SPEAKER_01] Depends on the day.

[00:58:23] [SPEAKER_02] Today's a Monday.

[00:58:24] [SPEAKER_01] Today I don't wish it had worked, but there are days when I wish it had worked.

[00:58:28] [SPEAKER_02] You're telling me that this conversation isn't part of that? Come on.

[00:58:32] [SPEAKER_01] No, it's not.

[00:58:33] [SPEAKER_02] Okay. Jesus, you're so honest. Jesus, my God. We talked about myths earlier. Are there additional myths or misconceptions you'd like to dispel?

[00:58:41] [SPEAKER_01] That medications work for everyone. Or death is failure.

[00:58:46] [SPEAKER_02] Or what? Or death is failure?

[00:58:47] [SPEAKER_01] Failure, yeah.

[00:58:48] [SPEAKER_02] Suicide is failure or death is failure?

[00:58:50] [SPEAKER_01] Oh, sorry. Suicide is failure.

[00:58:52] [SPEAKER_02] Have you ever lost someone to suicide?

[00:58:54] [SPEAKER_01] A distant relative.

[00:58:56] [SPEAKER_02] When was the last time you were in India?

[00:58:58] [SPEAKER_01] Oh, 2019. Before COVID.

[00:59:01] [SPEAKER_02] Before COVID. Have you ever called 988?

[00:59:03] [SPEAKER_01] I have texted with them one time.

[00:59:06] [SPEAKER_02] How was that experience?

[00:59:07] [SPEAKER_01] They asked me so many questions and I was not doing well. So I was like, you know what? I'm doing well now. And I just disconnected.

[00:59:16] [SPEAKER_02] So again, that just basically didn't work.

[00:59:18] [SPEAKER_01] No.

[00:59:19] [SPEAKER_02] You ended up saying something that wasn't entirely true. Is that the golden doodle on your lap?

[00:59:22] [SPEAKER_04] Yep.

[00:59:23] [SPEAKER_02] Let me see. He's big for three months. Oh my God. He's really big.

[00:59:28] [SPEAKER_04] Oh, yeah.

[00:59:30] [SPEAKER_02] So you have a home with three pets. They probably are happy there. I don't want to use human words for animals, but I think it's pretty safe to say your pets are happier than you.

[00:59:37] [SPEAKER_01] Oh, yes, for sure.

[00:59:39] [SPEAKER_02] Fuck the hero's journey, right?

[00:59:41] [SPEAKER_01] Yep.

[00:59:42] [SPEAKER_02] Joy is overrated. And I have a pink and purple pill. I already wrote down the answer. If you're a first time listener, I assume. No pain. Doesn't make up. No one knows it's a suicide. What do you do with it? It's Monday, early August.

[00:59:54] [SPEAKER_01] I'll take it.

[00:59:54] [SPEAKER_02] What do you think I wrote down?

[00:59:56] [SPEAKER_01] You'll take it?

[00:59:57] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. I don't need to be right. It was pretty obvious.

[01:00:00] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[01:00:00] [SPEAKER_02] How long would it take you to take the pill?

[01:00:03] [SPEAKER_01] A week.

[01:00:04] [SPEAKER_02] Oh, really? So you're a safe take. You're a safe take.

[01:00:07] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, because I have to make sure my animals will be taken care of. That's number one. Get up there in order.

[01:00:12] [SPEAKER_02] You could do all that in a week?

[01:00:13] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, because I have my will and all of that stuff ready. I just have to place it in places where my executor of the will will see, make arrangements like that.

[01:00:24] [SPEAKER_02] A couple of questions that I'll typically ask. What would the flavor of the pill be if you could choose any flavor?

[01:00:29] [SPEAKER_00] Chocolate.

[01:00:30] [SPEAKER_02] Oh, really? That's funny. You brought that up earlier, but you don't enjoy it anymore.

[01:00:33] [SPEAKER_00] No.

[01:00:34] [SPEAKER_02] A chocolate flavored pill colored pink and purple sounds weird.

[01:00:37] [SPEAKER_01] It's not a pill that actually exists, is it?

[01:00:40] [SPEAKER_02] It's not a pill that exists.

[01:00:43] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, we need a pill like that.

[01:00:45] [SPEAKER_02] So if we had a pill like that, imagine extended beyond the simple, it would be nice so I could kill myself. Think about that. Who has access to it? Who gets to give it out? Who decides? Who does these something where they kind of wish they didn't die, but they're really flipping out? But then if you could ask them after death, they wish and they regret it. Do you really want that pill to be available?

[01:01:06] [SPEAKER_01] I think we should have that pill available.

[01:01:11] [SPEAKER_02] But who gets to decide if we get it?

[01:01:13] [SPEAKER_01] See, that's the thing, right?

[01:01:14] [SPEAKER_02] Yep.

[01:01:15] [SPEAKER_01] We all like to decide how the other person lives their life, which shouldn't be the case.

[01:01:19] [SPEAKER_02] People love doing that shit, don't they?

[01:01:22] [SPEAKER_01] Hmm.

[01:01:23] [SPEAKER_02] What does it feel like to know you're living the way you're living? And some things could certainly change. In those seven and a half years, here's what I know is going to happen. One of your dogs is going to die. You will still be living in Seattle. You will have given up on all treatments, all medications, psychotropic medications. You will still have a few friends. What else?

[01:01:41] [SPEAKER_01] I also have some physical health issues. My right shoulder and arm doesn't work anymore. I'm losing function in my right hand.

[01:01:49] [SPEAKER_02] From what? Do you know why?

[01:01:51] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. It's a combination of issues. A pinched nerve from my cervical spine, then a rotator cuff issue, then tennis elbow, like stuff like that. That's there too. Like physically, I might be doing worse.

[01:02:04] [SPEAKER_04] You don't know.

[01:02:05] [SPEAKER_01] Every day I wake up, I look at my calendar, what appointments are there? What do I do today?

[01:02:10] [SPEAKER_02] I was going to ask you what a typical day is like for you, yeah?

[01:02:13] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[01:02:14] [SPEAKER_00] And then get through it.

[01:02:16] [SPEAKER_02] Do you know that you reached out to me in January?

[01:02:19] [SPEAKER_00] Mm-hmm.

[01:02:20] [SPEAKER_02] It's now August.

[01:02:21] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. That's crazy.

[01:02:23] [SPEAKER_02] Well, but it wasn't because I didn't respond to you. You want to delay talking, right?

[01:02:28] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah.

[01:02:28] [SPEAKER_02] Do you remember why?

[01:02:30] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. So it was towards the end of last year that I was let go from my job. And they actually tried to help me. But, you know, after months of holding my position, they couldn't hold my position anymore. Uh-huh. So then I lost insurance. And then it was that end of year craziness to get insurance through ACA. And then I had to switch all my doctors. And I just, that's when I hit rock bottom and then went deep some more.

[01:02:57] [SPEAKER_04] Uh-huh.

[01:02:57] [SPEAKER_01] Like I went through this phase of not being able to even talk, like function. I was not able to do anything for a couple of months there. My therapist says this is signs of getting better that I'm talking again. But yeah, that's why it took so long.

[01:03:11] [SPEAKER_02] Your therapist, zero to 10.

[01:03:13] [SPEAKER_01] Nine and a half.

[01:03:14] [SPEAKER_02] Wow.

[01:03:15] [SPEAKER_01] I really like the therapist, yeah.

[01:03:17] [SPEAKER_02] But they're not going to hear this?

[01:03:19] [SPEAKER_01] No.

[01:03:20] [SPEAKER_02] Apple or Spotify?

[01:03:22] [SPEAKER_01] Apple.

[01:03:23] [SPEAKER_02] You're more of an Apple. So that means you can rate this if you want to.

[01:03:26] [SPEAKER_01] Okay.

[01:03:27] [SPEAKER_02] It's either no rating or five. Don't play games with two threes and fours.

[01:03:31] [SPEAKER_01] No rating it is.

[01:03:32] Oh.

[01:03:35] [SPEAKER_01] Five it is. Five, five. I'll give you five.

[01:03:37] [SPEAKER_02] Whatever you want. I mean, you said truth. You're obsessed with the truth. I can handle it. I might live in a bubble, but I can handle some truths.

[01:03:45] [SPEAKER_01] I think humor is part of my defense mechanism.

[01:03:48] [SPEAKER_02] You're not very good at it.

[01:03:49] [SPEAKER_01] Ouch!

[01:03:50] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, I can fly. You want to go fire? Let's go fire.

[01:03:53] [SPEAKER_01] Give me that fucking pill right now.

[01:03:56] [SPEAKER_02] So what else do you want to share if anything?

[01:03:59] [SPEAKER_01] Thank you for the work you're doing. I know it must not be easy talking to so many struggling people, but it makes a lot of difference. Thanks for that.

[01:04:09] [SPEAKER_02] You're welcome. I appreciate it. And just, can I clarify something for you?

[01:04:14] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah.

[01:04:14] [SPEAKER_02] You're not correct. It's not hard for me. Okay. Do you know what's hard for me?

[01:04:19] [SPEAKER_00] What's hard?

[01:04:20] [SPEAKER_02] Talking to everyone else.

[01:04:22] [SPEAKER_00] That makes sense.

[01:04:24] [SPEAKER_02] It totally makes sense to me.

[01:04:26] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. Can I ask you something, though?

[01:04:28] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, I was actually going to ask you if you had questions for me, and I rarely do that. I just was going to do that.

[01:04:33] [SPEAKER_01] Okay. Like when you hear about stories of so many people struggling and pain, how do you not spiral down the despair?

[01:04:43] [SPEAKER_02] I'm already in despair.

[01:04:45] [SPEAKER_01] That makes sense. Okay.

[01:04:46] [SPEAKER_02] So you mean spiral further in despair?

[01:04:48] [SPEAKER_00] Further, yeah.

[01:04:49] [SPEAKER_02] I have 500 emails telling me that this podcast changed or saved their life. I mean, that makes it easy, right?

[01:04:56] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah.

[01:04:56] [SPEAKER_02] No, but even if I never got those emails, I enjoy talking to people, some of them. I enjoy honesty. Talking to people who are open to talking about their struggles, their pain, whether it's suicide or not. I think I'm good at it. I think people might be like, you arrogant asshole. I'm fine with that. Because I always, and I also add, I'm bad at most things. It's true. I think I'm good at it. I think it helps. Um, and I just happen to be, who knows how, whether it's genetic or whatever, like just, I can handle it.

[01:05:23] [SPEAKER_02] Almost to the point where I get worried, like, am I almost finding some sort of weird pleasure in other people's pain? Because, you know, I'm in pain, so you're in pain, so I feel less alone. Like, I mean, it's possible, but if you wrote me in a month and said, I'm doing much better, I would feel good for you. I'm not rooting for people to be in pain or suffer. In fact, what people don't understand, or some of them is, I'm actually not for or against suicide. What I'm against is suffering and pain.

[01:05:51] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. And then having to hide that too.

[01:05:54] [SPEAKER_02] And then that's the added part of, certainly, of pain. There's one question that didn't come up because of what I just said and what we were just talking about. Most Indians are Hindu or Buddhist, right?

[01:06:04] [SPEAKER_00] Yes.

[01:06:05] [SPEAKER_02] Small percentage are Christian or Sikh.

[01:06:07] [SPEAKER_00] Muslim.

[01:06:08] [SPEAKER_02] What were you? What were you?

[01:06:10] [SPEAKER_00] Hindu.

[01:06:10] [SPEAKER_02] Are you still?

[01:06:12] [SPEAKER_00] No.

[01:06:13] [SPEAKER_02] In Hindu, what happens when you kill yourself?

[01:06:15] [SPEAKER_01] I think it's a reincarnation happens.

[01:06:18] [SPEAKER_02] Even if you kill yourself?

[01:06:19] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. You're not going to get punished.

[01:06:22] [SPEAKER_02] You're going to come back with something worse. Yes.

[01:06:27] [SPEAKER_00] We don't know that.

[01:06:29] [SPEAKER_02] If I asked, probably around the time you were moving from Dubai back to India, kind of a random number, but 30, you're going to reach a point in your life where you're going to try to kill yourself. And then you're going to reach a later point in your life where like, all you want to do is kill yourself. You won't for a while, but you'll still be living that way. What would you say?

[01:06:48] [SPEAKER_01] I think the 18 year old me would believe it. I used to be very depressed.

[01:06:52] [SPEAKER_02] So if we move the age down more to like five, six, seven, eight years old, that's different.

[01:06:56] [SPEAKER_01] It might be. But you know, I grew up thinking that when my parents fight or when there is an issue, it's always, oh, I'm just going to die. I'm just going to die. Like death was, the talk of death was all around us.

[01:07:07] [SPEAKER_04] Okay.

[01:07:08] [SPEAKER_01] So I think I grew up thinking that that is the place where we go to rest or that is the escape. And to some extent, I have that belief even now.

[01:07:16] [SPEAKER_02] What's the rest of your day like?

[01:07:18] [SPEAKER_01] Oh gosh. My puppy has woken up from his nap.

[01:07:21] [SPEAKER_02] He saw, yeah.

[01:07:22] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. And he is, I think that is my shoe in pieces. I'll take him out.

[01:07:30] [SPEAKER_02] And then what? Like you're not going to sit on the couch and stay at the walls. What are you going to do?

[01:07:33] [SPEAKER_01] Mostly it is taking care of these three. And then I listen to a lot of audio books these days. Fiction.

[01:07:40] [SPEAKER_02] Audio books. What are you listening to right now? Do you remember?

[01:07:42] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. It's called Notes on Your Disappearance.

[01:07:46] [SPEAKER_02] Ooh.

[01:07:47] [SPEAKER_01] It's a fiction.

[01:07:47] [SPEAKER_02] Okay. Go to bed and it's going to be one more day.

[01:07:51] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. Feeding all of them, changing the old one's diapers, clean up.

[01:07:56] [SPEAKER_02] But that doesn't take seven hours. Come on.

[01:07:58] [SPEAKER_01] For me, it does. That's the thing.

[01:08:00] [SPEAKER_02] Oh, sure.

[01:08:00] [SPEAKER_01] I'm so fatigued and everything I do, I have to do with my left hand.

[01:08:05] [SPEAKER_02] You literally do feel 82.

[01:08:07] [SPEAKER_01] That is what I'm trying to explain to people, you know?

[01:08:10] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah.

[01:08:10] [SPEAKER_01] And you know, like when I went to, for my shoulder issue, when I went to the doctors, they're like, oh, you're fine. It's just stress. It's psychosomatic. Because I'm young and I had three MRIs. It showed that there are these issues. My spine is degenerating in my lower back. So I have old people problems in my relatively young body.

[01:08:33] [SPEAKER_02] At least you have good teeth.

[01:08:35] [SPEAKER_01] Thanks.

[01:08:36] [SPEAKER_00] That's something.

[01:08:36] [SPEAKER_02] I know. I just noticed teeth. Well, thanks for talking. I appreciate it. It's been fun. I would use the word of joy. I would never suggest that you would, but joy. Maybe not joy. But it's been interesting and I enjoyed. Yeah. Enjoyed it.

[01:08:51] [SPEAKER_01] Enjoyed it. Yeah.

[01:08:52] [SPEAKER_02] Well, I hope you get some very sound sleep later. And again, I really appreciate speaking with you.

[01:08:57] [SPEAKER_01] Thank you. And you have a good day.

[01:08:59] [SPEAKER_02] Thanks. Bye. As always, thanks so much for listening and all of your support. Special thanks to Ari in Washington. Thanks, Ari. If you are a suicide attempt survivor or ideator and you'd like to talk, please reach out. Hello at suicidenoted.com. If you'd like to learn more about The Missing Record, similar work, but a private audio practice, check out themissingrecord.com. I genuinely hope your day or evening does not suck. And that's all for this week's episode.

[01:09:29] [SPEAKER_02] Stay strong. Do the best you can. I'll talk to you soon.