August 31, 2020
SW = Sean Wellington, TD = Thomas in Denmark
TD: Just give as much support as you can without judgments and without projecting your whatever's going with you onto them. Because sometimes when we help people, we help people in the way that we want to be helped, which is not at all the way that they want to be helped.
SW: Hey there, my name is Sean and this is Suicide Noted. On this podcast, I talk with suicide attempt survivors so that we can hear their stories. Every year around the world, millions of people try to take their own lives and we don't talk much about it. And when we do talk about it, most of us are not very good at it. And that includes me. One of my goals with this podcast is to have more conversations with attempt survivors and I hope better conversations. Certainly going to try. We are talking about suicide, so this may not be a good fit for everyone. Please take that into account before you listen. But I do hope you listen because there is so much to learn. If you like this podcast, if you're learning from this podcast, you can help us out by doing exactly what you're doing right now, which is listening. You can also let your friends and family and other people in your life know about it. You can rate it or leave a review. This helps people find it. People from different places, places like Peru and Malaysia and Hong Kong and Colombia. Our podcast has been found there and people who need to hear these stories are hearing these stories. If you're a suicide attempt survivor and you'd like to share your story with us we would love to talk with you. You can email us at hello@suicidenoted.com Today, I am talking with Thomas. Thomas lives in Copenhagen, Denmark, and he is a suicide attempt survivor. Hi, Thomas.
TD: Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here and speak with you about this.
SW: I'm really glad that you were open to doing and able to do it. So where are you?
TD: I am in Copenhagen. I'm originally from California, but I've been in Copenhagen for 11 years now and I really like it. This is my home. I don't miss the States at all. Just love it here.
SW: We could have a whole other podcast on that subject for sure.
TD: I bet we could, yeah. I'm happy to talk about everything. I like talking about all this, actually. I'm not shy. I actually try to talk about it as often as I can with people. So as soon as I, I don't know how... I think maybe you posted something, I'm part of like maybe 10, 15 suicide prevention groups on Facebook. I think that's how you came up with my radar. You posted something and thought, yes, that's exactly what I want to do.
SW: Yeah, awesome. I'm glad. Yeah, I know it probably will not come as a surprise that it's not that easy to find people are really open and willing and available. It's not something we typically talk about. It's not something most people are going to talk openly about. You won't hear conversations about suicide attempts in most cafes, which probably, you know, there's a reason for that. But I always ask people, I'm always curious why they're comfortable talking about something that so few people are.
TD: Yeah, I really enjoy it because through the recovery process, I did heal completely and I'm quite confident in that and I'm over it and I'm aware of so many people that are struggling with mental health, whether it is all the way to depression and suicide or just everyday regular things. So many people are suffering from their mind know how to deal with this and I just want to help people. It's weird sometimes your greatest failure or weakness ends up being your greatest strength and contribution to the world. And that's definitely true for me. That's all I want to do. When was in college in LA, I started studying psychology, got a bachelor in psychology because I wanted to be a therapist and things moved in another direction. But I still have that drive and do want to help people whether it's professionally or just, you know, I at the park yesterday just talking to friends and normal, you know, everyday talk comes up and you can hear that, okay, there might be an issue here with frustration in life or insecurity or whatever and just even that, just a little, a small scale helping one person with a little problem. It's like, yes, I love doing this, you know? So that's why I'm very happy and open to talk about this sort of stuff. Because it's normal. We're all running around trying to hide. Like, we don't have anything going on. And we post pictures of ourselves at our peak, you know, at the top moments and modify our image. And so, unfortunately, it's so easy to forget that we're all human. And so when you bring up this stuff, it's like, yes, you're right. I'm a human, you're a human. We can just relax a little bit and just be a little bit more normal and just talk about you know that we are vulnerable sometimes we do suffer and we do go through tragedies and it's okay you know we don't need to we don't need to have this armor on like or a superhero or something it's okay and so I always get just a wonderful response when I tell people I tried to kill myself and I was in lockdown for two years and so it's a weird thing to say but when you're really comfortable about it it actually makes people really comfortable it's a weird phenomenon I will tell people as quickly as I can. If I want someone to like me, like I'll do some job interviews, I'll do this in university applications, dating, and friends. If I really want to facilitate a connection, I will work into the conversation, thatI tried to kill myself as quickly as possible in a way that sounds natural, which is difficult, but it's quite easy. And it just, it really facilitates good bonds. It's like, hey, you're normal. You're not trying to prove anything here. We're all trying to do that. When someone doesn't do that, it's like a breath of fresh air, it seems like.
SW: It really is. It really is. And it opens up, I find, this space for people it's almost like you're giving them permission to share stuff about themselves. It may not be a suicide attempt, but whatever it may be.
TD: It could be anything. People have shared all sorts of super personal things. And I'm very familiar and experienced with this. So there's just an acceptance of whatever it is. And it's like, yeah, I get you. I might not have experienced that personally, but I totally understand where you're coming from, what happened, why things happen that way, and how it's affected you, and how you're dealing with it. And it's just a relief to know you can just talk about this stuff openly without judgment. Everybody's going through something everybody has dealt with something some way somehow and so it's just talking about it, it's a great way to be like, yeah we're the same in one way or another, Yeah, so I so that's why I really like it and well, I'm here to talk to you.
SW: Yeah, and I thank you again for that. me about your attempt, however you want to frame that. What was that like?
TD: Uh, well, I took, I took 140 Tylenal PM with alcohol when I was 15. And it's, it's one of those very common situations, like a miracle. You're alive. I was in the hospital for a week, almost needed liver transplants. But somehow I, I guess ‘cause I was young, my body recovered just fine. I just had to take some medication for a while. Um, but that was the actual attempt. And then that led to, was in like a mental hospital in San Francisco for a month. And then, then sent to Utah for a couple of treatment centers. One was a lockdown treatment center. And then one was a therapeutic boarding school where you were allowed to go outside and have more normal interactions as a kind of like a step down position from the intensity of lockdown to going back to the real world. Because even going back to the real world for me, after two years of treatment, when I went back to a new high school back in San Francisco, just that alone, it was really scary. It was such a, like you could walk around on the streets and open a magazine and watch TV. Like just being able to do such normal things, it was really a shock. it was totally institutionalized.
SW: Yeah, right. And it makes me wonder about people who have been in institutions for months or years and not transitioned, which is a different conversation, but like, that's gotta be a tough transition.
TD: Yeah, it was. I mean, I think it also depends on how much it does for you. Like the treatment process worked really well for me. So I really liked it. I liked it in lockdown, actually, eventually. Like I felt at home there. I loved it. I liked the people there, the whole system. So I didn't have a problem with leaving, but of course you have to leave. So because of my positive response to it, I think that facilitated the institutionalization effects. I think that mine was more extreme than a lot of other people. A lot of people weren't as into it as I was. So some people were just like they want to get out, people tried to escape, they tried to run, they tried to fight the system, but I just went with it. Yeah.
SW: I want to hear more about that. I also want to ask you a really hard question. I've done a good number of interviews thus far. This might be the hardest question that I ask and that's you're 15 years old. You make that decision to take all those pills with the intention of ending your life. Why?
TD: Why? It was a lot of things. I guess things started… I was born into a really wonderful family, very loving parents, nice neighborhood, great schools. And so I was very much sheltered in this world of everything's amazing. But of course, as you grow up, your parents kind of protect you and things start to change. So when my parents got divorced when I was 11, that was just a huge shock. was like the first shock in my life where things can actually go wrong, things can go bad. And immediately that started changing my whole world. And I took it out on my dad. I started hating my dad because he changed everything. And with my mom and my brother and I, we moved houses a couple of times, which created a sense of, I don't know where I belong. Because I moved every year for a couple, like three or four years. So I had four different houses in not that long. And so I didn't feel like I belonged. I was putting all this energy into trying to figure out all this chaos, also puberty is happening at same time. It was just a lot of nonsense and mess and craziness and then think going and then transitioning from middle school to high school, I was so exhausted from this whole family problems that when I went to high school, I was super insecure and shy. I had extreme difficulty making friends. So at lunch, I kind of just sit alone in the corner while everyone else is being all cool and having friends and talking to girls and girls rejecting me. And so very heartbroken several times. And then all this pain, just since I live with my mom, even though I hated my dad, both of which they're absolutely wonderful. It was my reaction. But because I didn't like my dad, I would take it out on my mom for absolutely no reason, just because she's there. And I guess that's the burden of being a parent is at some point you can no longer protect your kids and it's likely they're going to take that pain out on you. So my mom just had to take it while I was just being an obnoxious, angry teenager. So there's a hopelessness, a helplessness, rejection from girls, not having friends, a terrible relationship with both my family, both my parents, not knowing what I want to do in life, not knowing where I want to go, getting bad grades. And I was at some birthday thing with a friend and we left, I think we just left and we're waiting outside for one of our parents to pick us up. And we slowly kind of talking about depression and he's like, I'm depressed, I'm really sad. He's like, oh, me too. And then that kind of built on top of it just like it expanded to like we're actually talking about depression and suicide and we wanted it to end in just this one very little conversation. So then having a friend who is a good friend. Knowing that there's someone else who also wants to kill themselves, we're pushing each other and promoting it. It's weird how it gets to a point where, at least for me, where you can get so upset that you actually don't even want to get better. You're actually looking for the things to make it worse because it's like, I do need to kill myself. But I'm not quite there yet. I'm in enough pain and I want it, but I still need a little more motivation to make things worse, to get there so I can really just do it. And so I guess we use each other to push ourselves to do that. And eventually he did not. I went to his house one night, we're gonna do it. It's gonna happen. We had a plan and we're take his dad's, his dad had prescription sleeping pills. So we're gonna take those. But then he decided I can't do this. I was like, okay, fine. I'll just go home tomorrow and do it myself. You know, another go.
SW: And you did?
TD: Yeah, I did. Yeah, I did. Yeah. So then on the way home, I went to the grocery store and just bought four bottles of pills, which was all I could get, I didn't: have any more money. I think I pulled out more bottles. And I was like, actually, don't have enough. I don't have enough for all these. So I put one back. And then I went up to the cash register and was going all, you know, I was one these kids that were all black, you know, all gothic, you know, style with those, you know, those, those square pyramids, that people have on like their butt, like their spikes were like on their belts or braids. I had those, you know, all over the place. I totally looked like, like, I don't know how many red flags, I'm wearing that, teenager 15. I go to the grocery store, buy four bottles of pills and only four bottles of pills. And there was no, was, she was like, oh did you find everything? Okay, have a good day. And then I just, yeah, that night, uh, I had a final dinner with my mom and brother. You know, they had no idea. I hid it. I mean, I think they didn't want to see it, despite how obvious it was. But yeah, then as soon as they went to bed, I was like, all right, here we go. I'm gonna take these. And I went, so I went down to the kitchen and took a bottle of vodka, I guess from my mom's liquor cabinet and then went up to my room and did it.
SW: And you didn't say goodbye in any way.?
TD: Nothing, nothing. There's no notes, nothing. Like it was any other night.
SW: I have no idea who's listening to this. I try to find out like analytics, you know, I could find out like downloads and countries. Here's a question for you. I assume that having open conversations about this is a positive thing. But I'm open to other people's points of view. When you shared with me that you, and tell me if I'm off here on my language, that by your friend also planning it gave you almost like this motivation or something in which you felt like you could do it. Do you think in talking about it, there might be people out there who hear it and they have the same feeling? I'd like to believe that this is doing far more good than harm, but what are your thoughts? Do you think someone might hear this and say ‘Oh you know, he tried, I can try.
TD: I think one of the most important things is I thought I was the only one. It's so easy to compare the best in others with the worst of yourself. And so I thought, especially in high school and looked at all the cool people and all the pretty girls and everyone just seems great. And here I am wearing black and just alone and miserable. I thought I was totally alone. I was the only one. So I just had knowing that, so with my friends, knowing that we were the same, really, it created like, oh, I'm not the only one, like there's someone I can talk to. But unfortunately, he was also in the wrong direction. But I think that if I met somebody who had the same thing, but they're going in a positive direction, then it'd be like, oh, well, so you can go that way, it is possible. Because I think one of the main reasons why depression is so dangerous is because it's very good at convincing you that you will not get out And if you don't believe you can do something you're not going to do it so if you believe I know so many people even after the recovery process like what I know from from recovery, they say once your depressed you're always depressed. I've heard this from so many people and it's a belief and if you believe this it will reinforce its truth and then it will become true for you. So what I really want to do is just like ‘guys that's actually not true. You can recover. I mean, I get it. I know what it's like to go all the way and want to go all the way. And you even want to, you're so bad that you even want to make it worse because you're so committed. But it's of course a scary thing. You're like, I just need the motivation. Like, like someone patting your back when you're going to jump off the high dive or something, you know, like some kind of support. Fortunately, I was able to go to these treatment centers. Because not everybody is. But I also know that it's not, it's not required. I, because I know how to do it. I really want to talk about mindfulness and how to look at the negativity in your mind and then see this thing. There's something in my head that's attacking me and you identify this as yourself, but it's actually just a voice and anyone can learn how to do this. I think mindfulness is the best thing in the world. We should be teaching mindfulness as soon as you teach algebra to people because that's when you'll learn the techniques to deal with this. And another big problem with depression is people think that I need to get rid of my problems to get rid of depression. But those are two different things. You can have, you're always going to have obstacles and problems and challenges. And it's fine. I just, that's how you grow and that's how you develop and that's how you move forwards and, and test out new things. But, but, but that won't change. That has nothing to do with depression. So if you hold onto the belief that if I get rid of my problems, I'll get rid of my depression. But you're never gonna get rid of your problems, which means you're never gonna get rid of your depression. So if you believe that, it's gonna actually, that's what's gonna defeat you. So I also want to let people know that getting rid of your depression is a totally different thing than getting rid of your problems. You maybe got rejected, or you're in a relationship you don't like, or your career isn't going the way you want it to, or whatever. You don't need to identify that with, I am depressed, I am worthless, I can't do it. Because they are two things, we're all gonna go through these career things, relationship things, money, financial things, personal things, and do that and accept that, okay, these are happening, these are here to help me grow. No one asks for moments of pain or rejection or tragedy, but they're blessings, because they prove to yourself that even this I can handle and they force you in a situation to grow internal muscles that you didn't even know that you had or you didn't think was possible and then all of sudden you're pushing to the deep end. like I gotta do this. I gotta move forward. And so the world is not so cruel as to give us what we want. Sometimes the world is fantastic by not giving us what we want. So many times what's good and what's bad you might think, is something that's really good. And then later you realize it was actually really bad. And then somebody might associate it as really bad. And later you're like, actually, you that was a really wonderful thing. You have no idea. So have more openness, you have no idea. Being suicidal was one of the best, it was literally the best thing that's ever happened to me. If you took that away from me, you would take, you take away my whole life because it gave me a opportunity to transcend myself and build myself and learn about myself and know about how to conquer yourself and keep going in the world, no matter how difficult it gets, because challenges are gonna happen all the time, and that's okay.
SW: So here's a question. I'm not a therapist, just to be super clear. I talk to people who are attempt survivors. And I think it's important for people to know that. I do want to ask you though, what was it like for you? Because I think there might be people out there who are hearing this. Maybe they're young, maybe they're not, and they might be depressed and might not know what that is. Might not know what that feels like. And so I'm asking for you, in as much as you can what does it feel like to feel that kind of depression? What does that feel like?
TD: Well, for me, just like there's no, there's no point in anything. Like I can't do anything. I'm not worth anything. I can't, I won't be able to figure out anything. I'm all alone. I don't fit in my family. I don't fit in my school. I don't even fit in my body. I was really insecure about, know, cause you're a teenager. You really don't like your body. I didn't like my body. So I didn't really fit like I fit, didn't fit in my skin, didn't fit in my home. I didn't fit in anywhere. And I felt so alone and isolated. And I thought that it's never gonna change. It's so easy to think that things are permanent, especially when you're a teenager, when you're really young and you think, this is gonna last forever. And so that idea that this is gonna last forever, I like, I can't do this.
SW: It's so insidious. It's did you, did you, I guess the word is ruminate? So when those thoughts arise, would you be thinking that a lot? This is never going to end my life sucks. I hate my body. I can't meet women. I can't meet girls. Girls hate me. I'm not popular all the time or would their be breaks?
TD: All the time and it's just reinforced everywhere when you're at school and you see everyone seeming to do really well and you're not and so all day long you're looking at people like what are they doing and why can't I, what am I doing wrong and then you go home and well now social media is probably making it even worse because you're comparing yourself even more. We didn't have social media when I was 15 but we still had, I watched a lot of MTV and there was also a lot of cool kids, being all cool and popular and flirt with girls and all that stuff. I was like, oh, why am I the only one who's not doing this? Which of course, I think most people, even the ones who are, the ones that I was also looking at and glorifying, they were probably also thinking, oh, why can't I be successful? Why can't I do all these things? I think a lot of people are thinking this, even though it appears that they're not. It's like conditioning.
SW: Yeah, of course.
TD: Like you're, constantly see what you don't have and that comparison, if you look at something that's really high, you're to look at yourself as really low and then you're going to keep reinforcing that belief until it's just a truth for you. Like I am really low. I am really low.
SW: On that night, how did you get saved? What happened that you were able to essentially, you didn't die? What happened there?
TD: And it just, nothing really. I did take all the pills with alcohol. So 140 with alcohol. And then the next day, you know, my mom just finds me in the room. There's vomit everywhere. And I'm just sick and sweating and gross and just totally nasty. And so she's it's very obvious that something has happened. And then my dad is a doctor. So she said to my dad, you need to come over here because something's going on. And then and it was obvious. Then I went to the hospital and I tried to lie. I didn't try, I did lie about it for a couple of days. Because I didn't want to admit it. But then I took my blood and blood tests and I was just like, this is not drugs. This is not, you know, some kind of…I said I had allergic reactions. I had to come up with something. So I said I was taking Tylenol PM to help me sleep every night. And I think I just had an allergic reaction. And then they're like, okay, there's no way. There's no way that's true because your levels are just off the charts, you know? So after a couple days, and then also before I admitted it, I was in the hospital, I in the hospital for a week, had one of these night watchmen come into the room and just sit there and just be awake all night because I was already on suicide precaution even though I hadn't admitted it. And then the psychologist started coming in to talk to me. And so was like, okay, okay, and then I just admitted it. I just didn't have the strength to keep lying when it was just so obvious that everyone knew.
SW: What was it like for you to admit it and get the words out of your mouth?
TD: It was, I mean, I don't remember a lot cuz I was actually very weak I was really unhealthy at the time. So I don't remember too much. I would like to say I was I was very shameful because I felt so ashamed. Just like a toll failure, a loser. I don't know what's gonna happen now I didn't know it's gonna be sent to a mental hospital at a time, but I thought I was gonna go back. You know what? I actually thought as soon as I get healthy and as soon as I'm out of the hospital and I go home, I'm just gonna do it again. There wasn't any regret. I’m like, okay, now I just need to do it better. I actually thought, okay, so now I know the problem was that I threw up, so this time I'm gonna do literally the exact same thing, but I'm gonna put a sock in my mouth and then tape my mouth closed, which is totally nasty. But that's how serious I was. The very first thing I thought of, I remember this, the very first thing I thought of once I woke up the next day and realized I was alive was ‘I gotta do it again.’ It wasn't like, thank God or something. It was like ‘I gotta do it again.” So there was, in the hospital there was of course a lot of shame and embarrassment. A lot of people were coming to visit me, family, friends were coming to visit me. I just felt so embarrassed. We’d sit there for hours and we didn't say anything, I don't really have a whole lot to say right now. But...
SW: How did they respond? I don't know how to get different people in your life. I assume that the, let us hope, tell me if I'm wrong, that the medical professionals responded in a professional way. Family, friends and including them like what were their responses like when they learned that hey, you tried to in your life.
TD: I mean, everyone just wanted to support me. Everyone just made it as clear as possible that they're here for me. They love me. They want to take care of me. People were family members who I might not have seen that often would come to the hospital and just keep me company, which I hated at the time, but it was just they wanted just to show me support. Everybody wanted to show me support. People even left gifts at my mom'sf ront door just anonymously. So somehow the word got out and some people would leave gifts like, feel better, we're praying for you, like meditation notes and things, all sorts of stuff. Everyone was super supportive.
SW: Some of the people I talked to, they have different experiences that people weren't really supportive or sometimes outright, you know, critical, negative. So I'm glad to hear that you had that support even at the time if it felt like it was just, hey, whatever, but…
TD: Yeah, I am very fortunate to have that. And that's probably one of the reasons that I've done so well in recovery. But it's not a requirement. It's definitely not a requirement to recover. In case you're out there and you don't have that support, I want to make it clear that you don't need that.
TD: What was the most helpful stuff in the hospitals and then after the hospitals? Because at the time you're still a kid.
TD: Well, then absolutely nothing, in the actual general hospital. Nothing was, they just wanted me to survive. Uh, they had, you know, making sure I was recovering. So there wasn't, I did, I did, I know that a therapist of some kind did come to speak with me. I don't really remember that, but that was absolutely nothing. Um, and then they sent me to the inpatient mental hospital. Uh, and I was there, you have to be there a minimum of three days. And I was, I was there four weeks because they did not know what to do with me. It was just so obvious that I'm going to do this again as soon as I'm out of here. Even though I didn't say that, it was just so obvious. I think because that's why I was there longer than pretty much everybody. Everyone just is there for three to five days or whatever. And I was there for almost a month. So this kid is on red alert. We don't know what to do, but he has to stay here. But at the mental hospital, that also did nothing because the system was just based off of, you following the rules? Because most people go to mental hospital, they're fighting the system and yelling and angry. And maybe even in one of those padded rooms where you're strapped down or something. But me, was just like, I'm just going to visit this summer camp for me. I'm just going chill out, enjoy the ride, and wait it out. As soon as I'm out of here, I'll go back. So nothing even then happens as far as our recovery. It was not until after that I went. The only reason I was released from the mental hospitals was because they were going to send me to lockdown in Utah. And then there they were a lot better at knowing what to do with actually breaking me down and getting rid of all this negativity that I have and showing me that I do have the confidence to, I can have the confidence and the strength to do whatever I need. And I started doing really well in school and I was fixing my relationship in family therapy with my parents. And I started to have friends. In the lockdown, were people that were former gangsters who had been shot. There were heroin addicts. There were people who would fight their parents. There were neo-Nazis. There were people who were afraid to leave their room and their parents would put food outside their bedroom. I mean, the whole spectrum of people were there and I just, I became friends, I was friends with them all, all of them, even the people that you might think were scary. I just, it was, so I was like, actually feel, have friends, like it was a really, so a lot of things were happening where I could see, okay, things don't, things aren't permanent, like I thought they were and then things can actually, things do change and they will change and, and, you know, you can make, you can make, yourself better. So that was a wonderful experience. Also, the therapists in this lockdown, just knew how to, they were hard on me. They weren't soft. knew, okay, got to, like a drill sergeant. Not gonna, not gonna… your drill sergeant's hard on you on purpose to get rid of a lot of bad habits and to train you on how to have discipline. Like, you know, as maybe in the movies, they wash the floor with a toothbrush. There's no practical reason for that, but it gets rid of maybe your arrogance and creates maybe more sense of your humbleness or acceptance. So all these tools, they were quite hard on me, but in a good way to break me down. I've conquered depression and suicide not through strength, but actually through acceptance. Not through building tools or walls of protection, but just like, like a surrender, like, okay, things are gonna happen. Good things are gonna happen, bad things are gonna happen. And okay, it's fine. Keep going, keep moving forward. So that's also one thing I think a lot of people, I watch a lot of suicide talks and I'm involved in lot of Facebook groups and stuff and it's very much
focued on building the strength, which of course is great, that's important, but actually surrender is as weird as it may sound, for me, was the answer, just to let go of these ideas of the way that the world should be and who you should be and what you should have and all these things, just let it go and see what happens.
SW: So was it during the lockdown in Utah that you started to shift a little bit?
TD: That's where all my transformation happened, was in this lockdown where I was there for a year. Yeah, I was locked up for 11 months.
SW: Wow. That’s interesting, so the shift and the change and all the things that ultimately helped you took place in a lockdown.
TD: Yeah, lockdown that was the greatest thing that ever happened to me. Because they can be hard on you. If it was an outpatient program, for example, and you know, I was allowed to go home, if they weren’t hard on me, I probably would have just killed myself. But because I could not do that in lockdown, that gives you the permit, like the ability to be super hard and really break someone down, which is a painful experience. And it's gonna seem like things are getting worse first. Just like if you're going through heroin withdrawals, for example, as soon as you stop, the withdrawal symptoms will appear that, okay, this is getting worse. But all those negative things are actually a cleansing, recovering experience. But when you're dealing with something like mental health, like depression, and someone's just trying to break these things apart, it's gonna seem, it's going to seem like it's worse. Now everything's being exposed. So maybe even things that you didn't even want to talk about, now they're coming up and now it's all you're thinking about. So it seems even worse. But since there was nothing I could do about it, it was exactly what I needed to get it out and get rid of it and see, OK, these are just ideas that aren't necessarily true or they are not true, that I can't do anything and I'm a hopeless person, I'm a helpless person, I'm bad at school, I don't have any friends, I can't talk to people, you know, all these things. I created them and I can also let go of them.
SW: Yeah. So what's the, for lack of a better expression, the bullet version story of after you got out of the hospital and got your life sort of back on track, what did that look like in terms of school or work or relationships for you?
TD: Well, it was great. So then after lockdown, I went to therapy boarding school for almost a year. So the whole process, like a two year process. And there, where I was already recovered when I went to therapy boarding school, there I started to have more normal relationships with people who weren't only therapy, because the lockdown was like, it was all therapy. And then the step down was also just, hey, have fun, watch TV, do little more normal things with therapy. But then when I went to another high school, I went back to San Francisco for a regular high school. It was, I was very scared. I don't think I even told anybody what had happened. I think I lied. I said I think I try to play it tough like all sort of way, you know, but I really want to. I don't think I got the details because I was just so insecure. But when I went to college, we could really just start over. I learned very quickly that people actually really liked it when I talked about suicide. Yeah, so when I was in that last year of high school, I did tell a few people and it was just a positive, it was just like, okay, I get you, I'm here to support you. Not that you need it, but I'm here to support you. I was like, that's nice. That's very refreshing. I thought people were going to run for the hills and judge me and think I’m a weirdo. But I saw, okay, well that's also another idea that I've created. That's not true. And so then when I applied for universities after high school. They asked what was the moment that really impacted you or who's your hero or whatever? I talked about my situation in lockdown and like my therapist and I got a lot of scholarships from universities. That was a very clear indication that people actually like this. So that gave me the confidence that when I went freshman year in college, I did start kind of flirting with the idea of telling people like these things. And I got such a positive response that I was like, I want to tell everybody this. And when I got into a fraternity, the whole interview process, if you want to call it that, I made sure everybody knew that I was like, I want to tell everybody I tried to kill myself and how I've recovered and things are different because that's, it makes me unique and it shows a strength and people also understand that and whether or not they've tried to kill themselves, they know what it's like to be sad and want to know how to recover. So I quickly learned just to tell everybody. Every opportunity I can, I will tell people that I try to kill myself. Even talking to girls now, I would tell them as soon as I can.
SW: First date?
TD: The first five minutes, I will tell people. I'll work it into the conversation. As quickly as I possibly can, I will tell people. Sometimes it's like, hey, I'm Thomas. I tried to kill myself. And then whether they believe me or not, you're still going to get a good laugh. So, know, everything's good anyway, you know? And if you do it the right way, so I would just tell everybody, and in interviews, I've told people in interviews, like, well, why'd you study psychology? Well, this is how I do it. Like, we talk about, you know, I'd say psychology and then they’d say, why'd you do that? I was like, well, actually, I tried to kill myself. And then it's, oh, okay. And so we actually can come up into the conversation quite naturally. And everyone loves it. People have given me feedback on job interviews of like the best time in this whole interview was when you told us that you were suicidal. It's just a wonderful experience. It's always a wonderful experience when I tell people I tried to kill myself because that's very likely that they will say something also very personal, which they might not have shared to anybody. It’s a pleasure to have someone really expose something like that. That might have destroyed the part of them when they were younger or recently. So it's something I really enjoy.
SW: I can hear that in your, when you speak about it, which is nice. What's the biggest or one of the biggest myths do you think out there that you hear revolving around suicide or suicide attempts or the survivors?
TD: That once you're depressed, you're always depressed. I hear that from so many people. Just seeing it online or actually meeting people who talk about it and they say, and when I tell them I've recovered, they're like, really? I thought once you're depressed, you're always depressed. So that's what they believe. As long as you hold on to that, if you hold on to that, it will be true for you. You have to let go of that and then, that you can recover. But you have to believe that you can. To do anything, you have to believe that you can.
SW: I think it gets tricky with some, it may be a semantical thing. The word depressed is used in so many different ways. So it's a limit of the language. I think, and again, not a doctor, not a therapist, not a counselor, just pretty well read. You know, once you are, for example, schizophrenic or bipolar, I think most doctors say you are going to remain that way. I don't know if you feel that way, but there are certain conditions that I think most people think you should be actively treating for the rest of your life. Do you not agree?
TD: Well… there is a difference, I think there's a between, yes, okay, you might be schizophrenic, but I do also know that you can be aware of the fact that you were schizophrenic, and you be aware of the fact that you are hallucinating, and you can be aware of the fact that your ideas are not actually true. This awareness of that neutralizes their ability to have as much power over you as when you're not aware of it, and you think it's real, and you're looking at these ideas or visions that aren't even voices in your head that aren't there and you think it's true. But if you are aware that there is something going on because you're schizophrenic or whatever, and that these voices or hallucinations aren't true, you can isolate yourself from this. I actually dated a girl not too long ago who was mildly schizophrenic and she said that she did have some hallucinations like every now and then there's just a guy standing in the corner but she knew that, okay, whenever I see this guy, I know that he's not, I know what that is. And there's a couple of other things, but she was aware that, okay, this is not real. Therefore, I will not let it defeat me. And sure, she has to deal with this the rest of her life. And sure, she has to maybe take medications. And she did go to a community group of people where it's because of facts they all talk about it. But just because you have these things doesn't mean that it needs to defeat you. So if you want to talk about maybe someone has a chemical imbalance where they have depression, major depression.
SW: Right.
TD: Okay, yeah, so all these negative thoughts are coming, but as long as you, if you can see that, okay, there's a negative thought here, the more you are aware that you are looking at it, the more you can distance yourself from it, and the less power it has.
SW: Mm-hmm
TD: I believe that. I think that everything is a thought. And if you know that, and know how to not get caught up in your thoughts, whatever that may be, you can have the power to release yourself from it, even though it's there.
SW: Yeah.
TD: Just like, let's say you want to go to sleep and your neighbors are having a party and that's really loud. What's keeping you up is not the loudness of the music, it's your resistance to the fact that there is music and you saying, I wish it wouldn't be there. That's what's keeping you up. If you just say, if you just accept it, okay, there's sounds, there's a lot of sound. Then you can actually instantly get to a place of peace. Like, okay, I don't need to defeat this external thing in order for me to be at peace. All I have to do is accept it. And everything external cannot have the power to defeat me. I do want to publish a book about this experience that guides people through the whole process and then do things like this and speak to bigger audiences or who knows what's going to happen, but something, I want to do something where I talk about this. But I haven't formally studied this stuff, this type of stuff.
SW: Well, you have your experiences, which are…
TD: Yeah, exactly. We're far more than anything, anything I learned in school regarding the mind and what's new about it.
SW: If there's anyone listening here who has someone in their life who is struggling, family, friend, whomever, really badly, and you could direct a message to them, the supporters of those people, not the people themselves, those that are in a position to support or help, what would you say to them?
TD: I would say how important it is to just give as much support as you can without judgments and without projecting your whatever's going with you onto them. Because sometimes when we help people, we help people in the way that we want to be helped, which is not at all the way that they want to be helped. So come with an openness and a freshness of the way you want to help them. Just say, well, I'm here for you. I understand. Talk about how you have also experienced these things. People like I when I do that, they love it and then they reciprocate and it does create openness and warmth. So you say I know what you're going through or you know maybe not even make those assumptions that you're going through something but just say hey I've dealt with these things, I've dealt with this and this in my life and this will work for me. Familiarize yourself with mindfulness so that you can know how to talk to people in a very calm, open way with more acceptance so that there's a relaxation in that. So they don't feel judged or that you're imposing on them or forcing them to do something or guilty or shame.
Just show that you're there for them, you know? Because that's what it was for me. I thought I was alone. And then unfortunately, well, it was a ultimately a blessing, but I met a guy, I found this guy that was also in the same situation and that created a bond. But we were heading downwards. If I met someone else and he or she was going upwards, who knows what would have happened? But just the fact that I knew that finally I was not alone and that someone understood me. That created a real tight bond with me and this guy. So if someone is going through those things that you see, just the fact that you just say, I've dealt with whatever. Them knowing they're not alone, I think will do so much. And then maybe just do mindfulness together or going on a walk, playing some kind of sports or a game, you know, anything just like let's engage in the world in a positive way that's not, you know, very demanding, you know, let's play checkers or something or whatever. Just do stuff so that your mind does get off of focusing on the negative. And then you see those other things.
SW: Hmm. That's great. So you moved to Denmark? What was it 11 years ago?
TD: yeah, I guess 2009.
SW: Why did you move back there? Not back there? Why did you move there?
TD: I moved here because my mom is Danish and so then I had this Danish background that I didn't really know anything about. I just knew that I was Danish, my mom did Danish things. And so when I was finished with college in LA, I had to make a big change. And when you're done with college you move to a new city or your life really changes. So I thought, well, if there's ever a time to check out Denmark, it's going to be now. So I just Googled psychology in Denmark and found this place to live and the, it's like a special type of school. And after, after three weeks I just, I knew this was my home, I just loved it so much. I was sold after three weeks, I've never moved.
SW: Did you, did you, but did you study in English or did you have to do a crash course in Danish?
TD: This first school, it's not related to university. It's more like an academic summer camp where people go maybe after high school, they don't necessarily know what they want to study. And there's all sorts of classes you take together to kind of explore things. It's a very unique thing that Danes have. But then after that, I went to Copenhagen University and I got my master's and PhD, which was all in English. Yeah, there's a lot of programs are in English over here just because Danish is such a small country and language, 5 million people, that it is very encouraged and they want international attention as well. A lot of things are just in English. You gotta have to do that.
SW: This is a really hard question, ready? What is, because I feel like this could be a long answer. What is the single biggest difference between the United States and Denmark?
TD: Oh gosh, the single biggest, I mean the whole, I guess values, because my values changed as well. When I was in California, I got caught up maybe in the whole, I don't know, maybe all the stuff you learn from MTV about, you know, nice cars and flashy things and bigness and greatness and being the best. And then when it came to here in Denmark, it's more like ‘hey, you know, just enjoy your life.” I feel like people will just enjoy their life more, like the quality of life is better. It's more of a we-ness rather than a me-ness. The whole system is just designed to support you with free healthcare, free education, almost no poverty over here. Everyone's in the middle class, which makes the crime lot lower, which makes the social cohesion higher. So there's all sorts of...street festivals and live music and people are just out and about a lot more freely and interesting. So it just creates a whole value of us together in this community. I love it. It's wonderful. It's such a blessing to be here.
SW: I was going to ask about mental health there, but I think you just answered it.
TD: Yeah, you know, it's interesting that Denmark does have a very high suicide rate, which is something that a lot of researchers have been looking into.
SW: I wonder why.
TD: Well, my explanation for this is just like if you can just like one reason why social media is so dangerous is that you go on it and kind of get sucked into this and you're looking at all these people that you glorify who are taking pictures of them of their best selves and even being totally fake and you know it's fake, but you get caught up in it anyway. And so this comparison of making that so high and making yourself feel low, I think that's what is happening where since Denmark has such a high quality of life and you see this everywhere, if for some reason you are not fitting in, that contrast will magnify and then you will feel more alone and then you'll be like, everybody's happy and educated and doing well and healthy and there's something wrong with me. Like what's wrong with me? Because you see it, you see it everywhere. So that's why I think there is such a high suicide rate and people are questioning why. And I think simplicity is the answer, not over complication. It's just, you're making comparisons. It is a fantastic way to defeat yourself, to make comparisons. And when it appears that everyone is doing really well and there's something inside you that doesn't fit, that pain is just going to grow and you're going to focus on that and magnify that and the contrast and just make the contrast more and more. So that's why I think Denmark has such a high suicide rate.
SW: What's the pandemic been like there and how has it affected your life?
TD: It's been really nice actually, it's not really bad over here. We're doing a very good job taking care of things. Businesses were closed for maybe two or three months, but things have opened. I mean, there's soap dispensers everywhere. If you're in the gyms, there's soap dispensers everywhere. In the grocery stores, there's a glass shield between where you walk in line and the cashier. But it's very, I mean, I'm out all the time at parks and it's very crowded. There's people everywhere. It's almost as if nothing is happening. I've talked about this plenty of times with my friends when we're out and about and we look around, it looks like there's nothing happening. Looks like business as usual. Everyone's having a great time socializing, flirting, dating, swimming together in the water and hanging out in parks. Everything's normal for the most part. So again, very, very lucky to be here, especially when I talk to my parents who are quite old and are at risk for the virus and they tell me that it's required to have a mask and they don't want to go outside and they don't really want to interact with other people and they stay at home. I feel so blessed to be here and I don't really do anything as a precaution against this because it seems like there's nothing going on actually.
SW: Your folks are back in California?
TD: Yeah, both my parents are in San Francisco and I see them only once a year for Christmas. I go home for my annual trip for Christmas, New Year's. But our relationship is fine. My parents didn't do anything. It was my anger that I projected onto them that destroyed our relationship and it was nothing they needed to change. It was me that needed to change. I was the one that was blaming them for my own pain. So when I got rid of that, our relationship just flourished and it's totally, wonderful. My parents are wonderful, but I just, I got mad at them because I was, I was mad.
SW: Yeah, I'm glad to hear that. So anything else around the attempt, your recovery, mindfulness, or anything else, sort of just an open question, share away, that I may not have asked about.
TD: Well, I haven't thought of anything specifically. I mean, I can talk about this all day. Yeah. Another round or whatever. Come back with questions later. Yeah, I didn't plan, I didn't prepare because it's just that I'm very comfortable.
SW: No, it's good, man. I think what you've shared was obviously very honest and heartfelt. And for sure, people will hear this and get something out of it, which is the goal.
TD: I hope so, yeah. That is the goal, yeah, exactly. So I hope so. But they're not alone in this battle. And so many people are fighting themselves. And it doesn't seem that way because everyone is trying to show this invincible superhero person that has no problems. But that's definitely not true. Everyone's going through something. Everyone knows somebody who's been depressed or suicidal, or at least they can, they understand what that is like. Even if they haven't experienced it. So it's so wonderful to talk about this because it makes you realize everyone is a human. We're all going through this and you don't have to do this alone and you're not alone. And there's so much out there that can really help you for the better.
SW: Thanks for doing this. I appreciate it.
TD: Thank you once again, man. Keep doing this stuff, I really appreciate it.
SW: As always, thanks so much for listening and special thanks to Thomas out in Copenhagen, Denmark. If you like the podcast, help us out as best you can. Keep listening. We drop new episodes Monday and Thursday mornings. Let people know about it and you can rate it or review it. It really does help us out. If you're a suicide attempt survivor and you'd like to talk, please email us at hello@suicidenoted.com until we connect again. Stay strong. Do the best you can. And I'll talk to you soon.
