Interview with Taylor in Minnesota

August 10, 2020 

Taylor in Minnesota Interviewed by Sean Wellington

Suicide Noted Podcast; hello@suicidenoted.com 

SW = Sean Wellington,    TM = Taylor In Minnesota

TM:  Yes, I have struggled with these things and yes, I do feel broken and maybe unfixable at some points in my life and I can heal from these things and it could take time and it might be uncomfortable. All of those things can coexist.

SW: Hey there, my name is Sean and this is Suicide Noted. On this podcast, I talk with suicide attempt survivors so that we can hear their stories. Every year around the world, millions of people try to take their own lives and we don't talk much about it. And when we do, we're not very good at it. And that includes me. So one of the goals, one of the main goals on this podcast is to have conversations with suicide attempt survivors and hopefully better conversations. I'm gonna try. We are talking about suicide. This may not be a good fit for everyone, so please take that into account before you listen. I do hope you listen because there is so much to learn. In the first couple of months since this podcast has been launched, we've had more and more listeners from more and more places, and the feedback we're getting is wonderful. And I'm so thankful that the stories we're bringing and the suicide attempt survivors who are sharing are being heard. If you're a suicide attempt survivor and you'd like to share your story with us, please reach out. If you like the podcast, please rate it, review it, subscribe to it, maybe all three. It helps get the word out so that more and more people can hear these stories. Today, I am talking with Taylor. Taylor lives in Minnesota and she is a suicide attempt survivor. How are you, Taylor?

TM: Good, how are you?

SW: I'm doing pretty well. As I've done this more and more, I find that I ask this question first and it is this, that a lot of people try to end their lives. Most people don't talk about it, certainly not publicly. And you are somebody who is okay with doing that.

TM: Yeah. I think originally why I started kind of talking about mental health in general  is I so desperately wanted to, I wanted someone to relate with and I just wasn't seeing that online. And something that I really value is when people are just like raw and honest and just like, no BS, like this is how things are. I think even though it's kind of uncomfortable, it's pretty freeing once you start to talk about it. It kind of takes the shame away from it. So I think that's really why I started talking about it publicly.

SW: When did you start to talk about it, to feel comfortable to share with others?

TM: Yeah, I think online it was a couple of years ago. But I think with my close community or people who know me personally, I really didn't start to talk about it a whole lot. Maybe a year ago, I was just kind of afraid of what people would think. I think something that I tend to do is act like everything is totally fine because who wants to be that person who is sad all the time or who's the Debbie Downer or that dialogue was happening in my head and I was like, I do not want to be that person. So we just have to act cool and people will like us. And I realized that you don't have to act like that. People will still like you for who you are, even with your struggles too. So once I started opening up to people, I found it to be pretty freeing and actually a little bit of a relief that I didn't have to put on this facade of being a happy-go-lucky person all the time. was like, you know what? I am having a bad day, and that's totally fine and reasonable.

SW: Totally agree. So can we talk about your attempt?

TM: Yes. So I first started kind of toying with the thought of maybe like existing is not something that's for me. I think I really started to play with that thought when I was in college, which was about two years ago. And so that's when I really first started feeling like suicide was on the table. And it was never really a thought before that and I think some trauma stuff triggered that as well. As for talking about the specific attempt, my most recent one was actually about six and a half months ago and so yeah that was one that was scarily close to being I guess you could say successful. I don't know exactly what is the... But that was definitely like the bigger one of the bunch that I've had, which I've had a couple of them. So. When I made that decision six months ago, I was like, this is what I'm doing, this is solid, this is the plan. I think what really triggered that was I was in a very deep, dark place of, I had so many overwhelming feelings of hopelessness and being something that I found myself saying was, I'm too broken for people to try to fix me. And I, I felt so many feelings of just being totally helpless and me being so far gone that I was just a lost cause and there was no returning from where I was. And so that was the, in my head, the logical next step. And I think that there was a lot of shame around that too. I was struggling really heavily with eating disorder behaviors too, during that time, which kind of just brings up that vulnerability factor, the lack of sleep and the not eating or, you know, eating too much or too little. And those things really make a person really vulnerable, especially emotionally. And that was definitely something that I experienced too and it definitely played a role in the attempt. So.

SW: When you talk about, when you say the word shame, what does that mean for you? What does that look like or feel like?

TM: Yeah, I think that for me, I was overall just kind of ashamed of my existence almost. I, because of the things and the experiences I had been through in college and in terms of trauma stuff and then with eating disorder behaviors, I saw how that kind of stuff affected people who are close to me and the feelings of just being ashamed of me and the things that I've put other people through, I think was so overwhelming that I was just like why would I continue to put people through that? And so it was a lot of just being embarrassed about the struggle.

SW: Yeah. It doesn't sound like it was impulsive. Let's talk about the last one. It sounded like something that you were planning to some degree.

TM: Yeah, that one was definitely planned. It was several months of me being really, really, really depressed and actively suicidal to the point where I was starting to plan things. And I think another thing that kind of played a role in that was not taking meds because there was a feeling of, well, I don't deserve to be happy. Also, I had felt so sad for such a long time. I was almost a little bit afraid of what it felt like to be anything different because even though being depressed and being suicidal is a little bit scary, it's comfortable. It's the safe place to be. And so I think there's a part of me that was like I don't know what it, I don't even know if I know what it feels like to be anything other than this.

SW: How long was that period in the world?

TM: It was months of knowing that this was something that was, it was months of it being on my mind, constantly thinking about how I would do it, when I would do it, when would be the appropriate time to do it, and thinking about the logistical kind of details of it. And I'm definitely someone who will not talk about it with people who are close to me because it was in my head that it was unacceptable to struggle. I also just didn't want to bother people. I was, I just need to deal with this on my own. And this is the one thing that I can control. And I know that people are going to get in my way if I tell people. So.

SW: You're right about that. Probably, I don't know the people, but yeah, they probably would get in your way, which is, suppose, one reason why people don't talk about it.

TM: Right. Yeah.

SW: We know what's gonna happen. Once you tried and it didn't work, fortunately.

TM: Fortunately, yes.

SW:  How did other people in your life respond when they found out in the days after or weeks after?

TM: People were really surprised because I was just someone who, again, acted like everything was totally PG. And that was more of a defense kind of mechanism, I think. So yeah, people were like, my God, what is happening? We had no idea. And this was such a, out of nowhere, people were like, we had no idea that you were this depressed. But once people found out,

which I kind of struggled with a little bit after the attempt, like weeks following the attempt. Once people found out, they were very, very supportive and to me, pretty non-judgmental. I kind of had a hard time wrestling with that after the attempt because I was like, these people are just reaching out to me now because they know I'm depressed and now they're taking pity on me and I don't want to be like that, that person again, going back to that person who is, I don't know.

being that less desirable, unhappy person. Now people are just talking to me because they know I'm depressed.

SW: That's a trap. It's a tricky spot to be in. I'm always curious about how people respond because it's a big thing. You know, there's no way to know how people are going to respond and I suppose some do it without judgment and somewhat supportively and others not so much. 

TM:  I think generally from people who are close to me, they were very supportive. And I think that once people kind of found, let's say my coworkers, once they found out that that was something that I struggled with, they were also supportive, not in the same way, but they were just like, hey, if you need anything,  I'm here, I get it. Just really nonchalantly like that and they showed their support in that way too. I think that's something that happened following my attempt was having to earn back that, that trust, especially in my family members, but also with l my therapist too, cause I, so currently I'm in a DBT program and so, you know, dialectical behavioral therapy, part  being in that program is signing contracts saying that you won't do that.

And I knew that in my head when I was making that decision. So when my therapist found out a lot of therapy after the attempt was earning back that trust because I had kind of broken that.

SW: When you said you signed a contract not to do it, you're saying not to try to end your life. 

TM: Yeah correct.

SW: How is the DBT working for you?

TM: So I actually just got done with 20 weeks of it, which is two modules. So each module is 10 weeks long. It's a year-long program. And I would say right now it's working very well. And the timing is perfect considering what our world is kind of right now. And I've really enjoyed dbt. I think it's super helpful. I'd highly recommend it for literally anyone. I think you could probably teach it to school-aged children too. It's been very useful.

SW: Good. I'm going to go back for a moment if I can. Not to get super graphic or granular. I genuinely think it helps for people to hear some of the sort of experiences that people tend not to talk about, even when they do open up about it. I want to better understand when someone, and I've not tried to end my life, I've been damn close a bunch, but I can't speak about this, which is what is it like to make a decision to not be alive and act on that and then wake up.

TM:  Yeah, that's definitely something I struggled with. So what ended up happening is that my attempt after I had kind of gone through the steps of doing it, I woke up and said, oh crap I'm still alive. I need to call for help. So what ended up happening is that I had, I didn't have to but I decided to, I called 911 and they ended up coming to me and I went to the hospital and because of what I had done, I was asleep for a long time and I woke up and I was so angry. I was also a little bit confused because of the circumstances. But once I woke up and realized that I was yes, indeed still here. I wrestled with a lot of anger and just like, wow, I can't even end my life correctly. Good job, Taylor. So those are definitely the thoughts that I was dealing with.

SW: Sure, I imagine it's hard to put into words, but you know, there's certain things that we, even when we talk about suicide, there's still sort of things you don't really say, right? And I don't know why that is, but one of the ways is don't tell people how you tried. Do you think there's any value in not sharing that? Do you think it actually might? I'm trying to think of why we don't share that. Does it give people ideas? What are your thoughts on that?

TM: Yeah, I think that I worry a lot of people who have attempted in the past, I think there is a fear of not wanting to give other people who are vulnerable kind of ideas on how to do it. But also it's interesting because each person, I never searched out for ideas when I was deep in it. I had a very specific way of how I wanted it to be done. So I think that it's, yeah, that's an interesting question, isn't it?

SW: I have always thought, and maybe incorrectly, that...particularly adults, maybe there's an exception with a 12 year old or a 14 year old. They know their options in terms of how they might do it. And I can't say if it would, I just don't think that somebody saying that I tried to do this by taking pills or jumping would give someone an idea. I'm not sure.

TM: Yeah, no, I agree with that. I definitely was not someone who was like searching for ideas because it's not like a learned kind of behavior. Like being suicidal isn't, I guess in my opinion, isn't exactly something you learn. I mean, you could grow up with it and witness someone struggle with it, but I think once you start to really get in your own head, it becomes very specific and unique to each person. That's what I think. think that people, you know, we're not idiots. We know what's out there. We know the mix of things you're not supposed to do with your antidepressants. We know the dosages, I mean,

SW: Sure. What helped you to get to the point of your last attempt and where we are now? What are some of the things? You did mention DBT. Other things?

TM: After my attempt, they referred me to, and they being social workers, also my DBT therapist, because I was in DBT at that point in time too, they referred me to a higher level of care. So I was not going to do an inpatient thing. They also didn't feel that that was necessary.  But I did end up doing kind of a day program kind of a deal. It was eight or nine weeks long, I can't remember, but we met in this group room for, I think it was four hours a day and that was four days a week. And so that's what I did for eight or nine weeks. And that program was based around kind of diving into your values. think something that happens a lot with, and you can probably apply this with any kind of mental health struggle. But I think specifically for depression and anxiety is that you kind of become one with the problem being the depression and suicidal thoughts or whatnot. You kind of start to identify as depression and I am anxiety and I am all of these things. But actually you are you who also struggles with these things. And so the main premise of this program that I did was diving in and really trying to seek out your values again and trying to detach yourself from the struggle, which was really helpful. And it seems simple. However, I remember my first meeting or group, it was more of a processing group. So we were allowed to talk about our emotions and whatnot. I remember the first group that I went to and me literally not being able to come up with what I enjoyed, what I valued in my life. And I had nothing. And so that was actually a really helpful program that I did.

SW: I'm curious what you ultimately did come up with.

TM: So part of that group was we did get these little value cards. And while there are things like music that I value, but also some of that stuff on those cards were like, I value connecting with people and I value speaking my truth, which also ties into kind of speaking more openly about mental health is just something that I valued. And loving and being loved was one of the values too. And so, I don't know, I definitely got into making more music and connecting with people on a deeper level, not just so surface being like, Hey, how are you? I'm fine. I think it's a very Midwestern thing to do. Like I'm totally good. How are you? So yeah, just creating those like deeper human connections I think is something that has helped me.

SW: Yeah. Where are you?

TM: I'm in Minnesota.

SW: Minnesota. All right. I've got a friend of mine who lives in Stillwater. Do you know where that is?

TM: Awesome, yes I do.

SW: You'd said that there were people in your life that were mostly supportive of you, right? I'm wondering in your experience, what are some things, if you experienced these that weren't helpful. And I'm asking that because I, I like to believe that people are listening to this that are either suicide attempt survivors, perhaps they're contemplating. There might be some other folks who are dealing with somebody who was recently attempted. What do you think is both helpful and not helpful in the way you engage with somebody in that space?

TM:  I think what I really wanted was someone to just sit and listen. I think something that was really challenging was that people, you know, when I did let a little bit of information out of  this is kind of how I'm feeling. I know that I had friends who are like, okay, here's what we can do. And here's a list of all of these resources that we can utilize and we're going to fix this. It’ll be great. And I didn't want answers. I was like, I'm okay with not doing anything about it, which is, what is appropriate for someone who is, maybe just having thoughts, but it's obviously a different story. If you're actively like I'm going to do this and you need to take further action, but

at that point in time, I just wanted someone to sit and listen to what I had to say without having all of the answers. I didn't expect people to ask. I didn't know. I was like, I don't know what I'm doing here. I don't expect you to know everything too. And so I just really wanted someone to sit and just listen and be like, you know what? That really, that really does suck. And just that validation I think that what I was experiencing is yes, it's really hard and it will pass. And even saying like, it will pass. I don't know. I think the term like, it gets better or like the phrase, it gets better is like something that I was not wanting to hear.

SW: Platitudes and solutions, which yeah, it strikes me, having been on the receiving end of a lot of those kinds of conversations for my own depression, anxiety, and other things in my life. You know, I'm preaching to the choir here. It's interesting that the default often is, here's what we can do, here's where we can go, here are the resources. And I wonder why the default isn't to sit and listen, and if Taylor wants to collaborate and figure out the resources or the places, she'll ask.

TM: Right, exactly. I think that because I've also had friends who have been suicidal in the past. I think there's such a deep fear of, if I don't offer them all these resources and they do something how guilty am I going to feel if I had all of these resources and I didn't offer those to them and then they went through with it like then I think it's kind of more internal with that person, that supporter too.

SW: Hmm. It's also more tangible. I offered you a resource, but listening isn't as tangible.

TM: It's really hard for people to sit and just listen and not be in ‘doing mode.’ I think a lot of the time people feel like I need to be doing something about this. I need to be problem solving. I need to be coming up with a solution, but it's okay. It's okay to just sit and chill out and just listen.

SW: More than okay. I think there should be, you know, they have this five second rule or whatever it is, when food falls on the floor. If we applied that to these kinds of conversations, it would be a real difference maker.

TM: It would, yeah.

SW: Wait a few seconds, just start there, see what happens. It might be astounding what happens after that.

TM: Yeah, exactly.

SW: Hmm. So for the folks out there who are potentially in a position to support and let us assume they're well-intentioned, in addition to listening, which in and of itself is massive, is there anything else that you can think of that would be, I guess the word is helpful or maybe useful?

TM: I think that a big part is staying connected and reaching out to people who are very depressed or even who just struggle with it could be with any kind of mental illness or whatnot. I think reaching out for the person who is in the thick of it is a really daunting task and making a phone call to your friend and being like, hey how are you, is super unrealistic for someone who's

particularly suicidal because that is just totally off the board. We're not going to be reaching out to anyone. So even if it's just shooting a text message being like, Hey, how's it going? Or what's up? Not being like, how are your suicidal thoughts today? You know, just something very simple being like, what did you do today? Or what did you have for breakfast or anything kind of like that, simple things that don't require a lot of mental activity, guess.

SW: Right, right, just like you said, simple. What do you think is a, what is a myth or something that many people misunderstand? Could be more than one, about suicide attempt survivors, folks that have wanted to end their lives.

TM: A couple. I think that, I don't know if this is because the media kind of glamorizes mental illness in general, I think some TV shows may and some TV shows may not, but I think that's something that I wish people understood was that it's not, a majority of people are not suicidal or we can even apply it to like self-harm. People don't do that for attention. And I think a majority of people don't. And also if you do, that's something that still needs to be addressed. Because it comes from something much deeper than, well I'm just doing it for attention. People don't just do things for attention. There's something much deeper happening. So I think that's a really big thing. And I think that is why I was kind of afraid to share with people. I also have a history of self-harm as well and so something that I am always hesitant to share is because I think that's something that people often think is she's just she's doing it for attention or she's just crazy, she's that girl who self-harms and is suicidal but it's usually not for for attention which is why it's such a big surprise a lot of the time when you do find out that someone has attempted even in their past, if it was like several years ago too. So that's definitely a big one that I think about a lot.

SW: Yeah, I hear that sometimes, fairly often. And it makes me think, sort of thinking aloud, why is it if so few people are doing it for attention that so many people say that or think that? There's a real disconnect there between what is and what people perceive and that's what is up.

TM: Yeah, I know. Yeah, it's wild. It's a good question. I don't know.

SW: I don't either. I don't know if people are being influenced by certain things that aren't accurate or I don't know.

TM: Maybe it's education based. I think there's so much stigma around just the mental health struggle in general that people just are unaware of even just a person who has symptoms of depression. We could even go to diagnostic material. I think just people aren't aware of what the symptoms are.

SW: I think there's another thing happening with suicide in that there is, I think, a fairly large group of people who are kind of repulsed by it. Be that for religious reasons or philosophic, whatever their reasons are, to say it doesn't sit well is an understatement. Whereas I don't think many of those people would say, they're repulsed by mental illness. I think more and more there's an acceptance that this is something that people are dealing with. But the suicide, becomes a choice and a choice that goes against, in their thoughts, perhaps God or universal truths or nature. That's a tougher battle, I think, to fight.

TM: Yeah, that's a good point. I think that, especially now,  more people are generally accepting of mental illness, that kind of umbrella term of anxiety and depression and all that stuff. But then you start to talk about the really kind of uncomfortable, nitty gritty,  being suicidal is a whole other animal of struggle that people are very uncomfortable talking about. 

SW: Very. I have in my life shared with people on occasion about my own ideations. Sometimes just to share because I want to share and I trust you and sometimes to be a little bit provocative. Not the greatest response. I don't know exactly what I was looking for, but it was awkward to say the least. And what happens is, you know, I think we all get these messages like, you know what, don't talk about that. And get them enough times and you stop talking about it and I don't think that's ever healthy.

TM: Yeah, I think it perpetuates the shame of experiencing it. And the shame of experiencing those feelings of being actively suicidal. I certainly didn't want to talk about it because I was afraid that people would think that I was crazy or that I was a disgusting or selfish human being too. Another thing that I was thinking is that a lot of people view being suicidal, it's like being the easy way out and being super selfish. Like, why would you do that to your family and your friends? It’s laying on the guilt thick. Was something that was very much running in my head when both planning and like making that decision ultimately. 

SW: Yeah, it's got to be such a conflict. I got off on a little bit of a tangent, so I hope that's okay. You were saying two myths, which you may have already covered in the first one. What was the first one? We were just talking like five minutes ago. The first myth was about it being a cry for help or...

TM: Yeah, attention seeking.

SW: What's the other one?

TM: I think the other one would be that it's an easy way. It's a really simple, easy peasy decision and that you're just being super selfish. And I think that would be the second biggest one for me, at least because I didn't just think about it for months and months on end because it was an easy decision. Now looking back on it, I think selfish is kind of a harsh term  especially when you're talking about people who are suicidal, because we already kind of feel terrible about ourselves. But yeah, I think definitely the selfish part of it really resonated with me. I have friends who say  I don't know why people would do that. It's so selfish. I can't believe that anyone would do that or they can't understand why anyone would do that to their family or to their friends. And I know that when I was really, really struggling with the thought of suicide and planning, it was extremely challenging. And the decision to actually go through with it, it's almost kind of hard to put words onto it because there's a freeing kind of sense of, I could just end this right now and it would be done and it would be just, it would be over and I wouldn't have to even toy with the thought of doing this. I could just do it and it would be done. Also, you understand kind of how permanent it is. You still are, you still have a brain in there and you still do understand that once you do it, I mean, it's, and if you happen to be successful or whatnot, that's it. There's no undoing it. So you very much know that in your head when you're wrestling with it.

SW: Right, which just adds, it's all the more reasons, yeah, conflict is the right word. Do you think you, given that you're, it sounds like you're doing some stuff to feel a little better, be a little better. Do you think you’ll try again?

TM: No, Realistically, no. I don't ever think that I will. It's exhausting to go through. I'm kind of a person who is a little bit competitive by nature. And so I think that in my head, I think, I didn't just do all this therapy for nothing. I'm not going to just put in all of this effort just so I can do it again. No and I also don't want to. There's also the fact that I don't want to. But yeah, and if I were to ever fall back into that place, I very much have the skills. And again, we all have the resources.

SW: Right, we’ve got the resources, the skills. So, from what you shared, one of your goals was to make deeper connections, I think maybe the biggest component is the support. For me, in my life, I know that if I don't have some support, the meds, the hobbies, that even sometimes the skills will only get me so far. And I'm not putting that on you. You don't have to agree. Just it's for me, I realized, If I'm alone, man, I'm in trouble. I know that.

TM: No, I absolutely agree. I think there's something to be said about making those deeper human connections and not just being so surface with everyone. There's a sense of kind of validation and just being able to empathize with other people is a really important thing. It makes you feel, it makes you feel sane. Like you're a human being and it makes you feel so much less alone, even if they can't relate directly to how you're feeling and they can say, you know what, just, that does really suck. And I can try to understand it.

SW: It makes you feel human, like a real human. And there's not much to replace that. That's kind of those connections. Did you end up finishing school or going back to school?

TM: So I haven't gone back to school yet. So after I complete this DBT program that I'm in, the plan is to go back to school.

SW: Do you know what you want to study?

TM: I was studying social work and I had planned on going back to social work. So that's the plan.

SW: I think you’d be a kick-ass social worker. any therapist, social worker, anybody in that field, if you have gone through these kinds of things, it has to make you better. It has to make you better.

TM: Thank you. Yeah, for sure. I think a lot of people who kind of go into those kind of fields, like probably like 90 % of them have either struggled really intensely with these kinds of things or have known someone really close to them who has. And so there's, I don't want say there's no need to be embarrassed when going into therapy, but I think something to be noted is like, they get it. They probably do get it.

SW: Something's different, yeah, yeah. On some level for sure. How have you been doing since this lockdown pandemic in what, March? Some people it's working well for them, right? I feel like I'm not much of a people person. I kind of spend a lot of time alone. I'm loving it, but I think more people, it's a struggle. What's up for you?

TM: Yeah, I think the biggest thing that I've noticed, hmm, I actually turned 21 during quarantine. So that was an interesting little experience. And it was kind of different to not be able to like, I mean, we still ended up going out in a patio like setting. I'm someone who does like to go out. I'm extroverted to a certain extent. And so that has been a little bit challenging having, I think kind of my routine kind of messed with a little bit. And I'm very much someone who likes consistency and who doesn't really appreciate change to this level. I think I can, I can manage the small little changes, but I think something like a stay at home order was something that my brain was like, what are we doing? And so I think that the most challenging aspect of this has been actually doing like therapy online is super weird. I don't know if there's any other way to describe it other than it just being like very weird and different and something that I think definitely the therapist and the client have had to adapt to.

SW: Yeah. It's hard for me too. I see somebody once a week and it's not the same as being in person. I don't quite know how to put that into words either, but it's different.

TM: Yeah, I definitely missed that like, just person to person, just being around people. I, you kind of don't, I mean, at least I didn't realize how much I appreciated just being around people. I also, now that I'm like wearing the mask out in public, I miss just like smiling at people and I miss that kind of connection because it just feels very stone face. I'm wearing a mask. So that's been very odd.

SW: You said that you like music, right? OK, top three bands of all time. We don't have to just talk about suicide.

TM: Right, okay well some artists that I listen to, here's the deal, I pretty much listen to most things except for country. I like more mellow kind of music, I listen to a lot of Billie Eilish. I like a good mix.

SW: Yeah, mix it up, no country.

TM: Yeah, there's zero country in any of my Spotify playlists. There's nothing.

SW: So you said when we first started talking that you were keeping your rather raw no BS Yeah, which I appreciate because you have been so open and candid which I just thank you for that You had also said earlier that at some point in your life or for a period of your life you felt too broken to be I don't remember your exact words. I think you said you felt too broken to be fixed or to recover from. Do you feel that way now?

TM: I think in certain areas of my life I do, but I don't have those thoughts like so intensely anymore. I think that I know now that no one is like unfixable and no one is just so far gone that might as well just not exist anymore. I mean, that is just so not a thought in my head anymore. It's also definitely like a dialectic of being of knowing that yes, I have struggled with these things and yes, I do feel broken and maybe unfixable at some points in my life and I can heal from these things and it could take time and it might be uncomfortable. All of those things can coexist. It's not just the black or white thinking, well, I'm too broken, I might as well die. It's just, that's just not even a thought in my head anymore. So yeah.

SW: I don’t know the exact numbers, there's, I believe, millions of people around the world every year who try to end their lives. It's plural. It's a massive number. This might be like the hardest question I ask you. I mean for sure you signed up for this so you can say, I have no idea, but here's the question. Got a lot of people who have tried, but there's a lot of people who are planning. It might happen tonight. I mean, I hate to say this, but it's true. This week, next month, some of them are impulsive. Some of them are not. Somebody who's struggling like you were struggling. Is there anything that you could say to them that you think might be helpful or useful for them to hear?

TM: Yeah, I'm trying to think of what I would have liked to hear, or what I needed to hear. I think it's just that there are so many people that like you don't even realize that could also be struggling with the same thing that you are. I think just being gentle with yourself too and being lenient and really trying to validate your struggle is something that was really important for me. And just knowing, this phrase is something that when I heard it and I was struggling, I was like, well, duh, I'm not alone. But to know that you are so, so not alone in this, I mean, the numbers even prove that you're not alone. And it's, it's really hard to kind of wrap your head around, like how could someone be struggling with something like this? But I think knowing that you're not alone is something that's really important and just to be gentle and kind with yourself and know that your struggle and what you're going through is totally and completely valid and you don't have to have had gone through something super like traumatic in order to still struggle and in order for your thoughts to be valid. I think a lot of what we fall into is comparing our lives with other people and saying, well, I didn't go through that. So why am I feeling like this? Like I shouldn't be that whole like ‘shoulds’ list. Like I should be doing better. I, why, but I think that it's important to remember that we can't compare our lives to other people and know that what you're going through is totally valid by you just being a human being and existing on earth, it's hard. Being a human is really challenging. And so just giving yourself a little bit of credit and saying, I am valid and my struggles are valid just for purely being here, just for existing. Cause if it was easy, we wouldn't, I mean, screw all mental health treatment, right? We wouldn't need any of that stuff. It'd be a little bit weird if we were all perfect, we're not and we're human beings. We're doing the best that we can. so.

SW: I think always we're doing the best we can, even if it doesn't look like that to others.

TM: I think that's something that definitely stuck with me is just taking, someone in college told me to just take life moment to moment. It can be really overwhelming to think, well, here's my plan for the next two weeks of my life. Like, uh-uh, can't do that. But just taking your life moment to moment, like minute to minute saying, I'm going to do this for the next five minutes. I'm going to do this for the next hour, or I'm going to make this meal for myself. And I'm just going to be in the moment and not think about all of the things I have to do for the next seven days of my life. So just taking it moment to moment.

SW: Probably easier said than done, but super important. Yeah, whenever I talk to anybody about this, towards the end, I'm like, what did I miss? What could I have asked differently? What might Taylor want to share that I didn't address? So is there anything that I didn't ask about that you think, at least in this moment, is important to share?

TM: I don't think so I think we covered it.

SW: How do you occupy your time, especially like now with this stuff?

TM: Yeah, it's definitely challenging because I'm definitely a doing person. So slowing down has been like, whoa, this is very unfamiliar to me. Yeah, so I've been filling my time definitely with a lot of music playing. I play the guitar and ukulele and so I'm writing my own music, which is something that has been like a really daunting task in the past. I was like, OK, I've got a lot of time. So we can just be creative. Definitely like a lot of painting, coloring, reading, a lot of reading. I think in college I read a lot of textbooks. Now don't get me wrong, I learned a lot, it was great. But I miss the enjoyment of just reading a book, just to read a book and not for something like an assignment. So it's been really nice to just read. That's what I've been.

SW: What book are you reading right now or recently?

TM: Do know who Glennon Doyle is? So she wrote Love Warrior. I am rereading that because I enjoyed it so much the first time. I'm not reading anything right now because I just finished rereading that, but I really want to read Untamed. I feel like that would be, yeah

SW: That's also Glennon Doyle, right? You're a fan.

TM: I love her. She's great. Yeah.

SW: Pretty badass. I think I heard an interview with her by Renee Brown recently on her podcast. It was good. Yeah, I mean, what's not to like? She's pretty cool. Awesome. Well, Taylor, I don't say this. I really do. I thank you not only for sharing with me, but being okay with speaking about it and talking about it, I think by doing that, you save lives.

TM: Well, thank you. I appreciate the opportunity to do this. I think it's so important and I just wish it was talked about more often. So I really appreciate what you're doing here.

SW: We're just doing the best we can and we're gonna talk about it. All right, well, cool. Well, enjoy all your creative endeavors and your day and thank you. And just keep doing what you're doing.

TM: Thank you, you as well, I appreciate it.

SW: So enjoy your day and let us connect soon. Alright, bye. Thank you for listening. I appreciate you taking the time and hearing these stories and these suicide attempt survivors. Until then, please stay strong. I will talk to you soon.