Interview with Susan in Maryland
August 6, 2020
Susan in Maryland Interviewed by Sean Wellington
Suicide Noted Podcast; hello@suicidenoted.com
SW = Sean Wellington, SM = Susan in Maryland

SM: If you suspect, even remotely suspect, that someone is considering suicide, don't dance around the question. Don't say, are you thinking of harming yourself? Ask the question. Ask, are you considering suicide?

SW: Hey there, my name is Sean and this is Suicide Noted. On this podcast, I talk with suicide attempt survivors so that we can hear their stories. Every year around the world, millions of people try to take their own lives and we rarely talk about it. And when we do, we are not very good at it. And that includes me. So my goal or one of them, is to have these conversations and hopefully do a better job at it. Have better conversations because these stories matter. They really matter and there's so much to learn. We are talking about suicide so I realize that may not be a good fit for everyone. Please take that into account if you do choose to listen. And I hope you do. We have been live and launched for about a month and we have gotten some really great feedback. More and more people from more and more places are listening, so thank you. If you like the podcast, please rate us or review it or subscribe or all of those. It helps get the word out. And if you'd like to share your story, you can reach out to us at hello@suicidenoted.com. I have put that information in the show's description so you can find it there. Today I am talking with Susan. Susan lives in Maryland and she is a suicide attempt survivor. Hi Susan.

SM: Hi, how are you?

SW: Good, thanks for joining me.

SM: You're welcome.

SW: So what I'm wondering about, a lot of people have tried to end their lives and most are not comfortable talking about it or not talking about it publicly. You are. I'm wondering why.

SM: Right. Well, I think probably one of the biggest reasons is the stigma. You know, it's only been in the last maybe 10 years that we've actually started to acknowledge people who were relatives of folks that passed from suicide. And they've started to be now involved in all sorts of things. I think it was just the logical next step that suicide attempt survivors are beginning to be included. We've got a wealth, unfortunately, of life experience that we can share if we're comfortable and we're willing to share it and if we're in a place where we can share it. I I know there's an awful lot of folks that are still really struggling with what brought them to a suicide attempt. And for them to talk about it freely and openly is very difficult. And I happen to be blessed enough, I guess, to have a decent support system and to have gotten to a place where my career, my professional standing, my standing in the community isn't going to be adversely affected by my talking about what's happened to me.

SW: That makes sense. When you say stigma, what do you mean?

SM: Well, you know, I think there's first the whole religious stigma in that, you know, how dare you make the decision as to when your life was going to end. That's the higher power's decision to make, not yours. Then there's the ‘what could you possibly hope to gain from doing something like that?’ And then what is it that that, did you consider what it's gonna do to your family or your friends or, you know, and so there's a selfish portion to it that I think an awful lot of people see. And then there's just the fact that an awful lot of people just don't understand that suicide is a symptom and it's not It's a deadly symptom in an awful lot of cases of mental illness. And so, you know, that is a subject that so many people cannot begin to talk about. So if you can't even talk about what might have led up to the attempt, how can you possibly talk about the attempt itself?

SW: Yeah, yeah. So you're comfortable talking about your attempt?

SM: Yeah, I've actually had multiple attempts, four times. The first was when I was 15 and I grew up a very privileged child. I had a very privileged childhood. And what ended up happening is that a boy that I met at the time who I thought was a pretty special person for me, sexually assaulted me and then proceeded to tell my world at that point in time all about it. And I was devastated. And I mean, I'd had emotional issues up to that point that really hadn't been addressed in any way at all. And so that kind of was the last straw, if you will. I just, I couldn't, I couldn't come past that. I woke up, it was an overdose. I woke up from the overdose. The first memory I have is three months after the overdose. I have no, it was because of the type of drugs that I took. And I don't like to talk about amounts or types. I'm not giving anybody ideas. and, never was treated to my knowledge. I have no idea what happened. And so after, mean, I, I think my first reaction was surprise because I didn't hear, you know, I thought that was going to be the end and here I am back. So, I became incredibly self-destructive, a lot of self-destructive behavior. And I finally got myself together and got through college in two years. Yeah, a degree in economics and then I got a job and for the next 30 years worked my way up through in a lot of cases the industry that I was in, I was the only woman in the room in a lot of cases and the first woman that had held a lot of my positions. And so, you know, I mean, I chose a pretty stressful path, but what I did is I hid my depression and the mental health issues I was having by working continually, overachieving constantly. If I wasn't working, I was in the gym or I was running or I was, I mean to sit still and just sit and think about things, just, I never allowed myself to do that. And so that's kind of how I managed to cope. And in our society, in a lot of cases, there are an awful lot of high achievers that I really wonder about in a lot of cases. People that work 90 and 100 hours a week, maybe they're driven and maybe they're ambitious or maybe they're using that as opposed to seeking help or really taking a look at where they are and what's going on. And the company that I worked for, by that time I had a couple hundred people reporting to me. Yeah, it was pretty high up and they left the country and I wasn't about to follow them. And so suddenly I went from 90 miles an hour to full stop and struggled for more than a few years. My husband had gotten involved in a startup at that point and then it was now his turn to work 90 and 100 hours a week. But what we did is we kind of enjoyed our success and we bought a second home. I was working with that. I was working with a lot of volunteer organizations. I was, you know, finding other ways to keep myself busy. And then my dad had been a very successful guy, but my mother unfortunately was a difficult individual. And she ended up coming to live with us and that was the second suicide attempt.

SW: After she was with you for some time?

SM: It was only six months. Yeah, she was a fun fun person to be around. That was that was the second and then the third one was when she decided to leave because she made all sorts of really horrible accusations and my family for the most part believed them. So and then the tfinal one was when she passed. And for a year before she passed, she refused to see me. She wouldn't have anything to do with me. And so when she passed, you know, that I crashed, I just completely crashed. And after the second attempt, I had mental health care, I was going to doctors. But even as privileged, and that's the other reason that I do this, even as privileged as I am and still am, finding reliable, consistent mental health care is an incredible struggle. You know, people, you start with them and then they're no longer available to you. You start with them and they close their practice or they consolidate or they're not taking new patients. And I have more options in that area than a lot of people. And I can't even begin to imagine how some people navigate the mental health system.

SW: Well, some don't.

SM: Yeah, and those are the losses, unfortunately.

SW: When you had, it's very interesting four attempts, but that long gap when you were busy living, you had said earlier that some people feel like, you know, people who take their own lives or try to take their own lives are playing God. And you also had said something else that people say, are you considering the effects you're having on the people around you who presumably love you or care about you and so that's a question that I want to ask you particularly the second one. What was that like for you knowing that you didn't want to be here yet you knew there were people presumably and I don't want to put words in your mouth, who cared about you.

SM: Yes. I have an incredible, my husband, I tell him how lucky I am constantly, number one. And number two, I've already told him that he's got a, the niche in heaven has been carved and his name is on it already. So, whatever else he's done, he stood beside me. I think one of the things that people that have never been suicidal don't understand is that you convince yourself that you, your family and your friends would be better off without you, that you are a burden, that you are a disappointment, that you are just screwing up their lives so much that it's you're doing them a favor by, you know, taking yourself out of their lives. And it's, when you're in that amount of mental pain and mental anguish, your mind's not working appropriately for one thing. But the other thing is that you start this, I call it my walnut. It starts out very, very small and the more I roll it around and roll it around, it just gets bigger and bigger and bigger until finally it's so insurmountably large that I can't push it around anymore. And, and, I just have to stop in some way. And that was my way of just saying, I can't do this. I have to stop and you're not... is it selfish? It's selfish in the way that you want the pain to stop. You want to not inflict yourself on them any longer. And that's really the way I looked at it. It's like I'm doing them a big favor. They're going to be much happier with having to deal with me all the time.

SW: Right. And I'm imagining if you're like most people, you tried other things to feel better or not be in pain. I'm assuming you didn't jump immediately to ‘maybe I won't be here anymore.’ For most people it progresses to that point.

SM: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I can't begin to tell you how many different therapists I've had, how many different...I have my actual diagnosis is major depressive disorder, which right there, it's, you know, you kind of feel like the descriptor of that illness is like, well, you know, why even bother I have major depressive disorder. So let's just hang it up, right. Or the other one that they
hung on me for a while was treatment-resistant depression.

SW: Wow, yeah, that's a doozy.

SM: Yeah, you just kind of say, hey, here I am. I've been on 15 different antidepressants and combinations of antidepressants. I have had ECT, which... you want to talk about... yeah, anyway. And right now what's gotten me, because I still very much suffer from depression, is I do ketamine infusions.

SW: I've heard good things.

SM: And they are, it saved my life. Truly saved my life. Because I couldn't continue with ECTs. The memory loss that I was experiencing, which is a side effect they talk about, but they don't make a big deal, they say, oh, well, you'll have a little bit of short-term memory loss. Well, that's crap. I've lost six months. I have six months of memory gone. Okay, so is the trade off?

SW: Yeah.

SM: No, it's not a trade off as far as I'm concerned. but yeah, so I have done all sorts of things to try and... yoga and meditation and acupuncture and massage and journaling and you know...

SW: I think one of the things that tends to get lost is how hard most people who are in that kind of pain are actually fighting.

SM: Yes

SW: I don't think that's typically a large part of the conversations when those conversations do happen. And it's astounding to me and sad that we can't, we tend not to go there and say, this person is busting their ass.

SM: I officially call myself a commissioner. And then I've moderated a panel discussion of suicide attempt survivors at what I thought was going to be a relatively small meeting. And it turned out there were a thousand people there. So that was a bit of a nail biter. And I've represented suicide attempt survivors in my community. I've tried to advocate for it and so I'm glad to hear you call it your podcast a little bit of a selfish endeavor. That's the way I kind of look at it too.

SW: You can do both, right? You can be a little self-serving and hopefully serve others simultaneously, I'd like to believe.

SM: You know what? You can attribute whatever motivation to me that you want to, but the issue I see is that, like I said, I'm an incredibly and I realize that I'm an incredibly privileged person. You know, my color, my social standing, my economic position, et cetera. And for me to have struggled the way I've struggled and to get effective treatment. I need to do something. I need to stand up and do something. And so, you know, it's been kind of steps and it's incredible. I'll tell you one story. This was last year, the county that I live in, and I live in Eastern Shore, Maryland, live five miles from the ocean. The county commissioners decided to issue a proclamation recognizing Mental Health and Suicide Attempt Survivors Month, you know, Prevention Month. And so they asked me to come so they could present the proclamation to a warm body. And so I happened to be the warm body. And there was a Suicide Survivors, Family Survivors organization that came to the same presentation. And afterward, the woman who was there, it was the first time we had met and we got the chatting a bit and she invited me for coffee. And so we're sitting chatting. And that weekend happened to be one of the marches that they do recognizing suicide prevention and so on. It was going to be down on the boardwalk in Ocean City. So they were going to have a dinner the night before the march for suicide survivors. And she invited me to the dinner. And I said to her now you realize that I'm not a suicide family member survivor. I'm an attempt survivor. And she said to me, well, then you probably shouldn't be there. She disinvited me. And I told the story at this conference that I was at about this without naming the organization. And I'm not going to name the organization. And as it turned out, she was there and immediately came up to the front of the room and said, no, you're the one that told me that you didn't want to attend. I didn't tell you, you couldn't attend. So even within the community of folks that are trying to work in suicide prevention, there's still this whole stigma of attempt survivors that just...

SW: I could be wrong, but from what I've learned over time is that there was almost some fighting about who gets to call themselves the word ‘suicide survivors.’ And that now it seems as if neither are doing it. One says lost, the other says attempt. And that original suicide survivors is sort of being used by both sometimes.

SM: Yeah, around here, when we start talking about it, they always say a suicide attempt survivor. You've got suicide survivors and then suicide attempt survivors. for a while, this same person was calling it a failed suicide. As in, OK, well, there's another area of achievement that I just didn't quite make the grade. So I kind of generally corrected her on that one. And she's like, I'm sorry. Is that what I said? Yes. Yes, that's what you said.

SW: Language matters, language matters.

SM: Unfortunately, yes, it absolutely does.

SW: I do think about some of the people I will never get to talk to for this podcast. They're not with us anymore. And I thought of that in part because of what you said about privilege. You're getting ketamine infusions, for example. And I looked into that at some point. They're not cheap and they're rarely covered by insurance which means there are people out there that would likely benefit from it and will not get that. And some will not be with us next week or next month or next year and some are not with us already. And that's money.

SM: Right. That's right. I have a relative who attends Johns Hopkins and she connected me with a doctor there who's doing research on ketamine and they're actually comparing the S ketamine which is the nasal. Now the t nasal ketamine is covered by insurance in a lot of cases. Yeah. However, it's incredibly, you want to talk about expensive. Yeah. Because it's the same cost per dose, but the first week you have to have three doses and then the second week too. And then after that and so on. It's very expensive. Plus it's not as effective as the infusions, which most insurance carriers will not cover. Anyway, he's this researcher at Hopkins is doing side by side studies of the efficacy of one versus the other. And so I got to talking with him about all sorts, he was asking me questions about my experience and, you know, sort of anecdotally. And I am now on a board of a study that's being done. It's based in Cleveland Clinic of ECT versus ketamine as a gold standard for treatment depression. And they're doing a longitudinal study on that. So at some point in time where ECT is now covered by insurance, they may turn around and say ketamine is now the gold standard and that's what should be covered for insurance. So I'm going to keep my fingers crossed on that one and keep pushing it.

SW: Me too, me too. When you think about your original attempt and then the attempts after, and a lot of the time between as you were struggling and dealing with your depression, I always wonder and ask about how did other people in your life respond to you?

SM: I never told anybody.

SW: Nobody in your life knew that you tried to end your life?

SM: Not the first time, no. My mother was so concerned about... she treated me incredibly differently after my attempt as opposed to before. But I never got any medical treatment for it. Nobody ever asked me about it, never talked to me about it. So, you know, that wasn't an issue.
And how I survived that attempt because of the type and the amount of drugs that I took is absolutely, I have no idea. I have absolutely no idea. Now the next three attempts, my husband was well aware of what had happened.

SW: The one going to heaven in that little special place.

SM: Yes, yes. My little saint on earth, God bless, ugh. The second and the third attempt, he was the only one that really knew about it other than my therapist and my psychiatrist and I never spoke to anybody about it.

SW: Because we don't talk about it. The reasons that make total sense.

SM: I would have lost, I would have lost, I mean, I was involved in all sorts of stuff in the community. you know, I wasn't working at the time, but, and as far as I was concerned, it wasn't something that you talked about. I mean, it was just, I couldn't for the life of me speak out and say, yes, this is why I was out of work for four weeks. So this is why I wasn't around for four weeks. I couldn't talk about it. There was just not a chance. And the, interesting thing is, after the third attempt, I got out of the hospital. I was in a short term facility locally and I had an appointment with my psychiatrist the week after and I very clearly remember this and he said to me, well, so how are you doing? And I said, well, you know I wasn't real pleased with the doc, the doctor in the short-term care place. I wasn't impressed with this, I had a problem with that. And he's like, no, we're not talking about that. He didn't want to hear it. Yeah, even even psychiatrists, so I went looking for a new psychiatrist and one of the ones that I went to see told me that he would not take my case because it was too complicated. He didn't want to have anything to do with me. So even with mental health providers, there is especially if it's been more than one attempt. The probability then begins to go up that you're gonna, you know, get it right eventually. They don't even want to have anything to do with you.

SW: There's also a, I think, perceived liability. I don't want to lose this person on my watch, so I'd best not take him or her at all.

SM: Truly, truly.

SW: Moral questions there, but I'm not a doctor and I have not been in that position, but it makes me wow.

SM: Well, I mean, in this, in our country, we're so fricking litigious that, you know, they have to practice defensive medicine sometimes. And I recognize that fact. And God knows, you know, I was the poster child for, my God, it's going to happen here sooner or later. So they just, you're right, they didn't want it on their watch. But the other thing too is that in a lot of cases, and I had somebody tell me this, is they view it as a personal failing. On a human standpoint, you can kind of see that. It's like, no, I don't want to have anything to do with this person. Dying on their watch isn't just the liability issue. It's the, you know, I think they take probably psychic hits every day. Why should they walk into something that they think they know is coming? So, I mean, to a particular extent, I can understand that, but...The amount of suicide training that most mental health professionals get is so minuscule as to be non-existent. You know, I don't care if you're a therapist, a psychiatrist, you know, a psychologist, there is very, very little in their curriculum of any sort that has anything to do with suicide. I mean, I found this from the commission information that I've been getting from the Suicide Prevention Commission is there's very little training done. And so they don't feel even qualified to deal with it in some cases.

SW: Right. mean, they also do, I believe, if they're a doctor, take an oath to do no harm. So if you're starting with that as your baseline, a lot of them would probably have to do things over Because they're doing harm. I mean, it's a fairly bold statement, but I think a lot of them, plenty aren't but, a lot of them, they're doing harm.

SM: Yeah, believe me, I've seen it on, you know, some of the conversations that I've had with therapists have been, you know, they've just, you know, I can't tell you how many times I've changed therapists because the first appointment that I go in and start to talk to them about some of the issues and you can just see them like they're, it's almost like they've gotten, they've gone into panic mode or they shut down and you realize there's no, there's not gonna be any relationship built here. You just can't even get, not even gonna happen. I marvel every day at, I mean, after my last suicide attempt, I spent a month in an inpatient facility in a private room with really wonderful therapy, really wonderful facility exercise. We did all this really cool stuff, but I was also having ECT every other day. Most of my memories of the place are things that my husband or my other family members have told me about because I don't remember a damn thing about being in there. And it's barbaric that that's the way that we try and treat people with major depression or other mental illnesses.

SW: I agree, I mean, it's barbaric.

SM: Yeah, they stopped lobotomies a hell of a long time ago. ECT, you know, it's administered with, you know, you're in under general anesthesia. They give you a paralytic, they put a head piece on you, they put a mouth piece on you, but you know what? It's still freaking barbaric. I mean, come on.

SW: Again, if you don't have a lot of money, what you end up doing, and this happened to me is you have to go to a hospital that only accepts you if you're suicidal or homicidal. And when you're not that. They won't take you, but if you say you are, so they take you, they treat you as if you are. Yeah, there's a whole lot of people that aren't suicidal that are on that path that are simply not getting treated because we have these extreme situations where you have essentially a place where I would argue their main purpose is for you...it makes it really hard for you to kill yourself. Or places where, you know, it's $10,000 a day, which is obviously out of most people's reach. You know, a place to decompress and be safe and have friendly, helpful people and walk in the woods. Wonderful, but most people, they don't have access to that. A lot of stuff in between going on that we're missing it. again, maybe it's silly of me to bring these things up without suggesting a solution. I don't have one. It's just frustrating personally and when I hear about it.

SM: Well, think an awful lot of people don't want to think about it. I mean, you start to talk about health care and people throw their hands up. And so you put the additional level of mental health care on top of it. And they don't even want to go there. They don't want to hear about it. They don't want to know anything about it. And so when you try and talk to them about it and try and explain things to them, they're still...I think in a lot of Americans view healthcare and mental health care the same way is that you go to the doctor, they give you a pill, they give you a shot, you're fixed. Okay, okay, that's 90 % of the time. And an awful lot of people don't understand it, why can't mental health be the same way? Give them a pill, give them a shot, know, take care of it and the story. And when they realize that it's years and years and years of trying to get straight or trying to get right or even trying to get feeling a little bit like the rest of the normals. They don't, they really, people just don't even want to hear about it. But if you bring it up enough times and get it in front of the right people, maybe at some point in time, somebody is going to hear.
That really actually is in a position to do something about it. That's why, you know, I'm happy to be in the group that's doing the study of ECT in comparison to ketamine, that what they asked me to do is talk about my experiences with one versus the other. And then I also added the availability of it and that it's not available to most people and that you trying to get in to the closest place, as I say, we call it the wilderness here in the Eastern Shore because of the lack of mental health facilities. But I think it can probably apply to just about any place that's not got an urban center, because we really don't. We have a lot of small towns. We don't have any urban center. But I know somebody that's tried to get into Shepherd Pratt, which is the big mental health facility in Baltimore and it's a six month waiting list.

SW: You're killing people. Yeah. I had an experience where I had a week stay at a psychiatric unit near near me. I'm in North Carolina. This is the one where I had to lie to get into. wasn't a huge lie, but it was a lie. Like I wasn't going to end my life. But my therapist said I should go. So I was in this, in-between space and I got in. Well, one of the things that was most astounding to me is I remember they were taking me to the ER and I remember saying to the nurse, I thought the psych unit was an ER. What do mean you have an ER? And she says, we just don't have enough beds. It's gonna be really hard. Like I'm gonna have to get sent back against my will. I'm never stepping foot in that place again. And that's absurd. That's what we're telling people and we are clearly. And even friends of mine, if they're having a real problem, I'm gonna think twice about saying, go to UNC. Now, disclaimer or it should be said, I'm not discouraging people from getting help and getting going. But I'm telling you my experience, had I not had family that would help me with that $10,000 bill, I don't know what would have happened. Like, so we'll get back to privilege a little bit. If I don't come from a family that when I'm really down, they say, we can help you out, well, 10 grand in a bill is not gonna help my mental health.

SM: Right. We have a little regional hospital close to us and then we have sort of a bigger regional hospital further down the road. And that's where the mental health ward is, the inpatient. It was my second or third attempt. I was in the emergency room and they make you swallow a bunch of charcoal and so your face is all black and in any event so they have locally, they have a really wonderful thing. It's called the crisis intervention team where it's a social worker that is on call 24/7 and they come to the the ER and they talk to you about what happened and what's going on and what the next steps are and so on and so at least you've got somebody other than the ER nurse or the doc who is probably completely clueless as to... and I mean one nurse, after my third attempt said to me, gee whiz you'd think you'd have gotten it right by now. Anyway, I'm in nightclothes, charcoal down in front of me, you know, ugly cried mess, okay, and she says to me, well we need to transfer you to the other hospital because they don't have it. I said yes, I know. And here comes the police officer who puts me in handcuffs.

SW: Yep.

SM: Puts me in the back of a car and drives me to the hospital. So that, I mean, that kind of summed up for me just how they, people think about and, the police officer was very kind, but he said, it's standard practice. We have to do this. I have no choice. I said, you know, I'm, I weigh half what you weigh. I have no weapons I have no training. have no, if I promise, I'm not going to do anything. I'm just going to sit back here quietly. And I had never in my little white lady privileged life been in the back of a cop car. And here I am. And so you get out of the emergency room door at the emergency room and they walk you into the emergency room with the fricking cuffs on, ok?

SW: Dignity is gone yeah

SM: So again, as you say, why in God's name would I go there and subject myself to that? When I'm feeling so beat down and low that I was trying to kill myself, I'm going to subject myself to that sort of? No, no. So this system, there are so many issues that need to be, you know, you kind of feel like it's a hopeless iissue. And then I remember that there's an old management thing about how do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time. So, you know, one little step, one little step, one little step, and eventually, you know,

SW: Yeah. I think we could probably have a long conversation about all the things, how the system is not working. And probably just as long a conversation about all the things people do, whether they realize it or not that are harmful or not helpful. What are some things in your experience that have helped? You did say, which struck me, it was quite interesting, all the working and the exercise for some people would be a sign of health.

SM: But in moderation. I mean, you know, as I said, I got where I got in my career because I was willing to put in absolutely crazy nutsy hours, but I had no family life to speak of. I had no social life to speak of. So there were trade-offs that I recognized going, looking backward that to maintain, because there's no way in God's green earth that I could admit to the fact that I needed mental health care in positions that I was in. So that was how I did it until I just couldn't do it anymore. So, you know sometimes it really, really worries me when I see people that are so wrapped up in what they do on a day to day basis. But there's other signs, you know, there's other signs that if you're paying attention, are there.

SW: That's a really big if yeah, if you are paying attention dot dot dot

SM: And my husband, like I said, he was involved in his own startup and just was working nutsy crazy hours, but he began to recognize that there was something going on. He was paying attention and I think that's one of the things that people need to find somebody that will help them by paying just by paying attention, just by asking. Are you okay? And really want to hear the answer and are really willing to listen.

SW: So if there are people out there that hear this and they themselves may not be suicidal or even depressed or anything else, they're fine, but they have people in their life, a friend or a colleague or a family member. So pay attention. Is there anything else?

SM: If you suspect, even remotely suspect that someone is considering suicide, don't dance around the question. Don't say, are you thinking of harming yourself? Ask the question. Ask, are you considering suicide? So what if you piss them off? I mean, ask the question. You know, if they say no, in a lot of cases, people that are suicidal, if somebody would have said to them, are you suicidal? It would almost have been a relief. You don't want to bring the subject up. But if someone said to you, are you suicidal? Are you thinking about killing yourself? You know, that could start the conversation. And that might just be enough right there. The other thing I would say is that if you know somebody who has attempted it, ask them why. They may not give you chapter and verse, but they may be able to explain to you that the level of pain that I was in was so bad that I could not think of any other way to take care of it except to die. And what infuriates me is when somebody says it's a permanent fix to a temporary problem.

SW: Yep, hear that a lot.

SM: You have no freaking clue how temporary it is. You have no idea how long it's been going on. How dare you say that to me and or to anyone else. I mean...

SW: When you say ask why, I would add something to that. And this is my type of language. It's a little coarse and abrasive. Ask why and then shut the fuck up. That's how I would frame that specific front.

SM: Thank you, just listen. You're right, because in a lot of cases, people will say, I've had, God, I can go through all these platitudes. How could it have been that bad? What made you think that would solve the problem? I can't imagine. I can't imagine. When you frame it in that “I” thing, as soon as somebody starts that “I can't” it's like you've lost me. Ask the question and then like you said, I like that, maybe I’ll make a poster or something.

SW: Take it. yeah, use it. There's probably, you could, you, I and others could write a book just with those types of platitudes that we've heard over the years. I want to also tell people that hear this and I try not to talk too much on the podcast, but from time to time I have my little rant. Regardless of what you think, those platitudes never help. If you're thinking, well, there was this one time where I think it helped. I would say one, it probably didn’t. And even if it did, don't assume it works. Assume it won't work and don't use it. There's no harm there. Right. That's my little rant for the moment.

SM: I absolutely agree with you, is that I did a presentation for a group of therapists and they're called Court Appointed Special Advocates. And I happen to be, the acronym is CASA, that they kind of help foster kids work their way through the legal system and all of that kind of stuff. And so I did a presentation for a whole group of these folks. And in the process, I said to these, all of these folks, I said, you know, you can't go wrong by asking why. You can't go wrong by saying, you know, just sitting there and not talking and just listening. It's really, really hard lots of times for people not to want to jump in and say, well, you should, you should, well, you should. Well, you know what? That's not how it works. My issue is that if you really aren't hearing or understanding what the problem is, how the hell can you offer appropriate solutions?

SW: 100%

SM: So if you're not really willing to listen to how I got to where I am and how I got to how I feel and how I got to making the choices that I made four times, how can you possibly think you can help me solve these issues? And that was the point that I was trying to get across.

SW: I mean, you not only may not have enough information, if you want me to do something and you really believe it'll help me, not only do you need to hear as much as you need to hear or that I need to get out, but also I'm more likely to follow your advice if I feel as if you've heard me out. That might sound silly to some people, like, well, that sounds juvenile. It's not, it's human. You hear what I have to say and that could take a long time, it may not. Well, maybe I'll be like, okay, I'll check out that doctor or I'll do this thing or whatever that sort of fix might be. People don't get it.

SM: Yes, it's exactly, that's exactly right.

SW: I'm always curious as I do my part to sort of raise awareness or increase understanding. I like to focus on myths and ask you, is there one, perhaps two myths out there that you would like to dispel about suicide?

SM: THat we're some kind of losers that were some kind of low achieving, know, this is my, you know, this is my choice because of my inability to cope or move forward or heal or that's probably the biggest one. Because I know personally, like I said, I was a corporate badass for a lot of years. I mean, you know, I used to make grown men quake. Yeah, unfortunately, it was part of the job. The other thing is that we're cowards, I think that's the other thing. What was the cowardly thing to do? It was a cowardly thing to do to your family. It's like...no, no I mean, if you're in that much pain what's cowardly about it? You've made a pretty incredible decision, unfortunately. I mean, I don't know any other way to put it. And to think that it's a cowardly decision? No, it's a desperate decision. One of the things that I look at is the level of gun ownership in this country has actually increased on the part of women, where it always used to be that men were the ones that use firearms, but women are closing the gap. They're starting to move closer to that.

SW: It’s easy to get guns! It’s easy.

SM: Women in a lot of cases, because they haven't used the most lethal means, that's one of the other myths ‘oh it’s just a bid for attention. You really didn’t want to... you just needed attention. And this was the reason you did this.’ I truly one day am going to end up having to have somebody bail me out of jail for, because I'm going to slug somebody that for next time somebody does that to me. I have a friend who tells me I've got your bail fund. I have lived experience to offer. And I'm more than happy to offer it if you're willing to listen. And I'll talk to whomever and wherever. I mean, I'll make the offer. And that's why I'm willing to talk to you today is that I've reached a point where in my life where I don't need to impress anybody. I don't need to... suck up to anybody. I'm not worried about my standings anyplace. I don't have to worry about losing a job or my professional standing or my standing in the community. I'm this, again, this little privileged white lady who can say a whole lot of stuff that maybe and people may listen to maybe more than maybe some other folks that are around and speaking about this subject. And if I get up in somebody's face about it and get them to at least hear a part of what I'm saying and maybe even think about it, then that's what I'm going to do.

SW: Yeah, good. Good, good, good, good, good. Well, you already have the skill mastered of making grown professional men quake. I have no doubt that you can do... you know, one thing you said that really resonated with me, I think about people who say the act is cowardly or the person is a coward. And I wish I could talk to those people and say, you know what, I will I will give you that if you can tell me throughout their entire ordeal, you were there to say how strong they were. Were you there month after month and year after year? I'm gonna guess no. But now you wanna call them a coward. No, no, no, no. If you were there all that time saying how strong they were, I'll give you that, but I don't think there's a person on earth who could say, yep, I did all that.

SM: It just makes me incredibly angry that people in any circumstance would define somebody by one single act.

SW: There's something about that act that is unique in our world or our culture that yeah, they can't not do that.

SM: It used to be against the law. I mean, you could get arrested for crying out loud for attempted suicide. You could be hauled into court and indicted for attempting suicide. At least, thank God we don't do that anymore, but the mentality is still there. It's an offense to society. And part of that, I think, is our Christian background. But I think part of it too is that so many people just can't even begin to imagine being in a situation where that was even something you would consider. I just am gonna continue to, like I said, get up in people's faces and say, look, here's my experience. I'm not speaking for every person who has been where I've been, but here's my experience, I think a lot of it is incredibly relevant. I think a lot of it is, unfortunately, universal for folks in my circumstance. And, you know, I'm trying to do something about it, you know, in whatever form or fashion that I can. And the fact that we're just even talking about it is such a step forward that it's important. And that there are so many other places on the, you know, with all of the things that are going on with Facebook and, you know, all of that stuff, that there are so many other resources out there these days. It's really gratifying.

SW: Yeah, it really is. Do you think that with all the work you're doing and I suppose the things you've learned about yourself and ways to take care of yourself, is there any chance that you'll try again?

SM: No. I've been doing ketamine now for over two years. And the difference that has made to my depression and to my overall mental functioning is unbelievable. It's I mean, there are there are some side effects if you want to call it that is that I'm it's more it's easier for me to concentrate these days I can retain more that I have read because I read a great deal and I I'm not as volatile although God knows I'm not showing it in this, but I'm not as volitile at all emotionally as I used to be. you know, I just don't see it. I just don't see it.

SW: When you talk to people about this stuff, is there a message that you're trying to convey? And this would be geared more for the person who is contemplating, who might be contemplating, who is really down. As someone who's tried four times, like, and all the work you do, what would you want them to know?

SM: That just give me five minutes and let me talk to you. If I can't convince you that you maybe need to look at a different path, then your choice is your choice. And I truly believe that. But maybe...you haven't been heard and maybe I'm the person to listen and if maybe I can offer you an insight or a resource or another path that nobody else has offered because of where I've been and what I've seen and how I've been treated and just give me that opportunity. I mean, five minutes in all of the time that you spent contemplating or suffering or, you know, it's not a lot to ask. Just give me five minutes.

SW: This has been enlightening and I appreciate your time and your openness about all of this. I really do.

SM: I spent a major portion of my life being very closed off, very private, very protective because I had no idea how people were going to react if I told them how I truly felt, what was truly going on inside. I put up an incredible facade. It got to a point where it's like, you know, I'm not doing this anymore. I can't do it anymore. I'm investing way too much energy in it. And I want to be, I want to be the person that I really am and let people see me. And if that's not to your liking, well then, you know, there's the door. Don't let the doorknob hit you where the good Lord split you. Right?

SW: I've never heard that expression in that precise way. Just like that. Don't let the doorknob hit you where the good lord split you. Okay. Yep. I like it.

SM: Hey, I mean, you got to do what you got to do and say what you got to say. Not everybody's going to like it. Yeah, well my husband keeps telling me, he says, you have no filters anymore, do you? It's like, nope, I've had them for too long. I had to watch every word I said, every expression, I don't do it anymore. So take me or don't, you know? I mean, I'm not looking to pick fights or hurt people's feelings or create problems, but if I'm pushed, I'm going to push back.

SW: Yeah, sometimes that's what people need to hear you know, sometimes they need to know that you're not screwing around and they'll say, okay, I'm not gonna be a jackass anymore with this.

SM: I just, I'm not investing any more energy in it.

SW: Typically I try to go under like 45 minutes, but that ain't happening with you. Which is a good problem, but I'm just, you I know people's attention spans are short, but hey, I think ultimately the people that need to hear this hopefully will and if it's 70 minutes, hey, it might help.

SM: I'm not, I don't try and put myself in their class particularly, but if you look at people like Anthony Bourdain or the, I can't remember the name of the fashion designer Kate Spade, I mean, those people were incredibly accomplished, yeah, wealthy, driven people and you know they they did an incredibly good job at hiding the fact that they were suicidal.

SW: It's astounding. Yeah. I say wealthy only because it affords you some treatment. You can insulate yourself and your life in a little bit that sometimes helps.

SM: People will pick up after you where, you know, sometimes, you know, that, yeah, right. Exactly.

SW: Getting massage every day could help.

SM: Yeah, no, therapeutic massage is wonderful, I know the point is that privilege doesn't shield you. But then again, it does. And to the effect that because people are looking at you and they're saying look how accomplished and famous and.... all of a sudden they're going what the hell happened? Well the signs were there somebody was really paying attention. And that's the point.

SW: Really, the signs are? I don't know if they're always there. I had my best friend kill himself, it was over 20 years ago now. And I thought of myself as someone who was rather attentive.
I was out of the country for part of the time, in any case, he was a cop. So he had a gun. I knew that something was off towards the end.

SM: Risk factor one, risk factor two.

SW: But this guy, he was truly a remarkable human being, lot of friends. You could just check the boxes of like friendships, yes. Girlfriend, yes. Family, Decent job, yeah. Just a lot of checks. And no mental illness history. He started to decline. Nobody knows exactly what happened. There's still some question marks that linger all these years later, but I guess my original point was I knew he wasn't doing well. But when I heard that he put a bull in his head, I just... It just didn't wait. didn't. So much so I was actually out of the country. had plans. I almost I tell us to almost nobody. I had plans to go out with my roommate when my mother called. I was in Japan. So I was morning in the States and evening there. And she called and she told me she read it in the newspaper. And so she wanted to share it with me. What's really weird. And you'll understand why I don't share this with people the way one deals with shock like that, I went out. I heard that he had died. He killed himself. No way. Yeah. I asked him questions my mother told me were very like factual. Yeah. And then I just went out and it was like, and it wasn't, I wasn't trying to drink myself to forget about it or get drunk. I just went out. It was just like, we were going to go out. And obviously over time, this sort of like the weirdest thing about suicide,
death in general, but suicide in some ways more so, it's like you have the rest of your life to process it. Cause it's just, it's over 20 years now and I still, there's these little moments where it's like, he's not really dead. I mean, obviously I know he's dead, right? But like, and it's just.
We're not built to process that, I don't think really. We try, but it's just like... Well I am, this will sound very trite, but I am glad that your four attempts were complete failures, if that's the right... We can't use that word, but you know what I mean.

SM: Well, that's OK. My husband tells me, he says, it's one of the few times that you failed.

SW: I'm celebrating that just for the sake of life itself, but the fact that you are able to now share what you share and undoubtedly in whatever way it looks like help people, which is awesome.

SM: Whatever, I haven't quite figured out the role just yet, but I'll get there. I'll figure it out.

SW: No doubt, no doubt. Yeah. All right. Well, Susan, it's been, it's been an absolute pleasure talking with you.

SM: Appreciate the opportunity.

SW: My pleasure. And I just, hope your summer continues to go well, particularly amidst this chaos and uncertainty and that you're hanging in okay.

SM: I have a new puppy, Sullivan the corgi.

SW: For sure, I think one other way to feel good, right?

SM: Yeah. It's a lovely dog. It's like, man, keeps me out of trouble.

SW: All right, well keep doing what you're doing. hope you continue to feel well and...

SM: Thank you.

SW: All right, take care. Bye bye. Again for joining us. If you like this podcast, please leave a review or subscribe or perhaps even both. If you or someone you know would like to come on the program and share your story, reach out to us. You can email us at hello@suicidenoted.com Stay safe, stay strong, and I will talk to you soon.