Sept. 14, 2020 

SW = Sean Wellington, MN = Madi in North Dokota

MN: When we think someone is contemplating or is depressed, we kind of just go into this like fight or flight. Like I have to do something big to help them or like I don't know what to do and I'm just not gonna do anything. And it doesn't need to be something big. You just need to, you know, ask, hey, how are you? Like, are you okay?

SW: Hey there, my name is Sean and this is Suicide Noted. On this podcast, I talk with suicide attempt survivors so that we can hear their stories. Every year around the world, millions of people try to take their own lives and we almost never talk about it. And when we do talk about it, most of us, including me, aren't very good at it. One of my goals with this podcast is to have more conversations and I hope better conversations with attempt survivors. Now we are talking about suicide so this may not be a good fit for everyone. Please take that into account before you listen. I do hope you listen because there is so much to learn. We have had listeners in more than 50 countries. Places like Morocco, the Philippines, France, Austria, and I'm looking forward to this podcast reaching more people in more places because I believe, I really believe that these stories matter and people need to hear them. If you're a suicide attempt survivor and you'd like to share your story, please reach out. Our email is hello@suicidenoted.com 

And if you'd like to support the podcast, well, you're doing that right now by listening. Let people know about it. If you're on a platform that allows you to rate it or review it, that would be helpful too. Today I'm talking with Madi. Madi lives in North Dakota and she is a suicide attempt survivor. Hey Madi, where are you?

MN: Hi there. Where am I? North Dakota.

SW: Really? Haven't talked to anybody from there in quite a while. How's North Dakota?

MN: Real cold. 

SW: Even now?

MN: Yeah, it's dropping already.

SW: Yeah, wow. You guys get it bad up there. One thing I always wonder about is that most people who try to end their lives don't talk about it, certainly not publicly to people they may not know. And I'm wondering how you came to be at the point where you said, okay, I'll, I'll share.

MN: I’mn: pretty open about everything about my mental health. I don't really just like say it to everybody I see, but I don't really try to hide it. I think it's just really important to talk to people about it. Just because I have a lot of friends who I told them about my mental health and they ended up telling me too because they were just a lot more comfortable because you just start talking about it more and it stops becoming something you need to hide.

SW: Absolutely. Yeah. Are you comfortable telling me about your attempt itself? Whatever you want to say or however you want to frame it is great.

MN: So my first time was when I was 14 and I remember it really specifically because it was the Monday after MLK day and it was like the week before my first freshman finals. I was dating a girl at the time and we were both really like unhealthily obsessed with each other. You know when you're young and…Yeah, we both knew better than each other's parents. We knew better than like the counselors and everything. And we were really codependent. And it ended up with both of us attempting like about the same time. I'm still really good friends with her to this day, but we really needed a lot of help together.

SW: Yeah, for what it's worth. It's been a while since I was that young. But I still feel that way sometimes that I have these unhealthy, I'll call them unhealthy relationships from time to time. yeah. So you were 14 years old, and you're in this relationship and you make a decision that you don't want to be alive anymore. Was there anything else going on where you were like, I can't deal?

MN: Yeah, I didn't have a good home life either. And that was kind of building up on, you know, school, like going to school for the first time. Like being diagnosed with depression and kind of like talking to somebody who keeps on endorsing your bad behaviors. You know, like when you're talking to somebody young like that, they're gonna keep on telling you to do bad things or like to do things you shouldn't be doing. So it was a whole bunch of them all put together.

SW: Sure. I guess especially if they're struggling as well. Yeah, it could sort of feed on itself. And you said there was more than one attempt, right? What about the second one or the next one?

MN: the second one was when I was 17. I didn't get too far with that. One of my friends called the cops right away and I ended up going to the hospital for about another week. God, I can't even remember most of it. I was drunk for most of it. So.

SW: Was that the last one or was there another one?

MN: No, I had another one about two or three weeks ago. So.

SW: Okay. Yeah. Timely talk we're having.

MN: Yeah, that was a whole bunch of stuff.

SW: I know it's very raw and I don't want to push. Sare if you want and if you don't we can talk another time about it, that it's up to you.

MN: I'm okay sharing it. That was a lot more because I just recently moved out of a bad place and I've been on my own for a while now and it was quarantine because I had just been stuck in it for about a week by myself. And it was that and it just I really started getting to myself a lot more and I stopped going to my therapy appointments which I think didn't help.

SW:  And were you for any of those? I think you mentioned at least one time. Did you go to the hospital either short term or long term?

MN: Yeah, I went for two and a half weeks my first time and a week my second time.

SW: And I always wanna ask, like, was it helpful in that you got help and you felt a little better or maybe meds or whatever, or was it more just a place where you couldn't commit suicide?

MN: It was helpful where they made me, like they made my parents and I pick someone to go see after I got out. But that was kind of it. Besides forcing me to go to therapy, all you really did was sit in a circle for six hours a day and just kind of sit with other people that were forced to be there. No one really wanted to go to group. No one really wanted to be in the hospital. It just felt a lot more like a punishment than anything else.

SW: Yeah. I've had two short stays in hospitals. I wasn't, I don't think I was suicidal. I was just in a lot of pain, but you probably know sometimes there's no place where we can go. So I ended up getting into them. And the reason I'm sharing that, I remember those groups and I was like, this is, I just, I didn't get anything out of it. Let's say that. What are we doing here? What are we doing?

MN: Yeah, it was just a lot of groups that gave us a lot of, they really giving us tools that we didn't really need. Like we were talking about how to fix your sleep cycle in group, but that doesn't really help me when like I have a lot more pressing issues than I need to fix my sleep cycle. I want to talk one-on-one with someone who can tell me what's going on.

SW: Yeah. Yeah. It's limiting for sure. So do you remember when you first started thinking about this? I know you tried first when you were 14. Were you ideating or sort of actively thinking about it well before then?

MN: Yeah, I've been, I've had depression for about as long as I can remember now, but in middle school, I thought about it a lot and I thought like about how I would do it specifically. And that's about the time when I started talking with my counselor and that never really seemed to help too much. Cause I was never put in therapy. I was never, like even they didn't even try to find a diagnosis. Yeah, so I'd been thinking about it since I was like 12 years old.

SW: And how old are you now?

MN: I'm 20.

SW: That's a long time. That's hard. It sounds like it's been quite a struggle to put it mildly, obviously. Did you ever get any kind of diagnosis that you thought, yeah, this seems to be kind of accurate?

MN: Yeah, recently I did.

SW: Can you share?

MN: I have PTSD. I, ever since the time I was 16, I'd always been told that I have depression and anxiety. And then I have like a whole bunch of other smaller things with it, like a whole bunch of other symptoms. The guy that I just started going to had me retest cause he didn't think it fit.

SW: What does he think?

MN: He thinks that I'm PTSD. And I have to go talk to someone else to get like a second opinion on it.

SW:  PTSD, yeah, so that sounds like it's a new thing I was going to ask about if there's been medications that have helped you at any point, maybe in the past or now.

MN: I used to be on Lexapro and that's kind of the only pill I've ever been on. My parents were always really against medications. They always said that it's a crutch or that it's not a permanent solution. So I've only been on Lexapro and I was on it for about six months, which isn't long enough to really have anything happen. So.

SW: It's so tricky, Yeah. It's so tricky. You brought up your parents and I'm wondering when, for any of the attempts, how did people in your life, your family or maybe friends or whomever, like how did, when they learned of this that you attempted, how did they respond?

MN: My mom was really mad about it. My dad was a little mad, but I think he was a lot more sad. Most of my family was really disappointed because I come from a very religious family where it's really frowned upon. And so when they all found out, a lot of them weren't too happy that I would. The second time, my parents didn't seem to care too much about it and I haven't even told him about the third time.

SW: How many people know about the third time?

MN: No one. 

SW: So it's me. Okay, I feel like I don't know what the word is…something. Yes, it's just kind of a coincidence perhaps that we happen to be talking now. I chuckle at just to be clear, you know, I'm not obviously chuckling at…

MN: No, I get it. I laugh too. It's not like a funny thing, but you don't want to just be all sad and solemn about it.

SW: Well, yeah, that's definitely part of it. And I think something so big and no one knows about it. I don't know what I'm trying to say. I'm just thinking aloud, like, man, that's tough. It's just hard. That's all. hard.

MN: Yeah, I think part of the reason why people don't like to talk about it is because it's such a big, sad, scary thing. Yeah. We don't have to just be really depressing when we talk about it. We can try to laugh a little bit about it. Like, it's not a funny thing, but you still want to be able to just at least smile and laugh.

SW: Yeah. And I would imagine that's super hard with at least parts of your family when they, you know, the faith, if your faith says this thing is just not okay, it doesn't sound like there's much room or I guess space to really have any kind of conversation. Yeah. Is there anything that when you do talk about it, and I realize that may not apply to right now, it might be in the past or just in general, like Is there ways people can talk about it that you would find okay or helpful or at least not harmful, right?

MN: Yeah, I think that just talking it through sometimes with people is helpful because then especially they know some things about you like they know sometimes where you're coming from. And I think it's just, it's important to talk about with people so that they understand that sometimes they can't do things with me. Like if I, if I tell them like I have, I'm having a bad depression day, it's nice to have someone that can kind of understand that instead of having to make up another excuse. But I also, if I'm talking to someone about it, I don't necessarily like unsolicited advice about it. Especially from people who aren't depressed themselves. I've gotten a lot of advice from people that aren't depressed on like how I can fix it, how I can help myself out. And I never really appreciate that too much because it never really seems to help.

SW: Right. Can you remember some of the things that they say? Because that kind of drives me. I can't stand that either.

MN: I've been told to like stop dwelling on stuff that's happened. Like if you think happy thoughts, you'll be happy. If you just, you know, clean up a little bit, your room will be brighter, you'll have a better day, which is kind of hard sometimes when you can't get out of bed. Yeah, like I have some things that just it's impossible for me to do. I can't do it. I'll just look at it and I just know it's not going to get done. And I'll just have people say, we'll just do it anyways. And that doesn't help when you have like this huge barrier. It might not be a physical barrier, but if you can't do it, you can't do it.

SW: 100%. Why do you think people say stuff like that? Any ideas?

MN: I think it's because a lot of people don't actually understand what depression is. A lot of neurotypical people, I think, have this idea of what it is in their mind. And it's probably just like, to them, it's like they're bad days. And they think that's what it is. And so they think that they know what they're talking about, and that, you know, they were able to pull themselves up by their bootstraps. So why can't you? Which is why I think it's so important to talk about it because it's good to explain to people what exactly it is and that it's not just a couple of bad days.

SW: Yeah. So if you could influence the way someone talks to you, like you have a magic wand, imagine that whether they're neuro-typical or not, how would you want them to engage with you? Presumably not the, ‘I'm going to give you advice’  right? Like what would you want them to do or say that might actually be something you get something out

MN: I want them to just ask me if I'm okay. I feel like sometimes that's just the best thing you can do for somebody is to just say like, hey, are you all right? And if they're not, just listen and ask what you can do to help.

SW: Yeah, we're not very good at that. I mean, there are probably some people who are, but I don't meet many of them. I keep wondering why. I mean, I'm in North Carolina, you're in North Dakota. It's the same. I mean, people just do this stuff. It's like, what are you doing? Some of these questions sort of overlap a little bit, but I am curious about myths based on your experience with whether it's depression or specifically around suicide attempts, suicidal ideation. Like what's a myth or maybe more than one myth that people just have wrong?

MN: I think the biggest thing, especially for like young people with depression is that it can be cured. I know that a lot of times when I was younger, I always thought that I was going to like cure my depression one day and I just wasn't going to have it and I was going to be totally fine. And I think that a lot of like neurotypical people think about that too, that, you know, if you just go to therapy, get meds, you'll be cured. But I mean, you're never really cured. You don't really stop having it. You just get better at managing it.

SW: Yeah. Well, you try as best you can, right? For people that don't know what that word means, how are you using that word? Neuro-typical. That's a fairly newish word, I think, in people's lexicon.

MN: It's just someone who doesn't really have like any mental disorders. I don't like saying mental disorders because it's not anything bad, mental disorders, yeah. Someone who just doesn't have any. 

SW: So I don't know much about North Dakota or any of the Dakotas. I know it's fairly sparsely populated. I know that it's mostly rural, conservative. I'm sure there are some exceptions, but I'm generalizing. So I would imagine, you'll tell me if I'm not accurate here, that mental health care is probably lacking.

MN: It's very bad up here.

SW: Yeah, so what's not working there? What's the bad part?

MN: I think a lot of it up here is just the stigma. People have a very set view of people who are mentally ill. I'm actually a medic. I used to work in the hospital and some of the stuff that people would say about our psych calls were just terrible. We would have people that would call for themselves because they were hearing things and they didn't want to and just like...If I ever talked about a case like that with somebody up here, they would just call them terrible things. And it's not something that they can really control, but it's something that people will come after them for.

SW: And they're trying to get help!

MN: We would have people that would call because they were hearing things or they were seeing things or because they thought they were going to hurt themselves and they didn't want to. So they would want us to come pick them up and they were, they would be trying to get help.

SW: Right. Which is one step a lot of people don't even do. it's already hard enough to make that call. So wow, when they call that would be sometimes the response. Does that piss you off?

MN: Yeah, like trying to talk to people about it when they say something about, I mean like this is someone they've never met before and they're like someone that's trying really hard to be better and to help themselves and they're going to be talking about them like that. It's not very nice, not very fun.

SW: No, probably not fun for you either. You use the word stigma. You also mentioned this is about your family, about religion. Do you think other than religion, there's some other things that contribute to this stigma?

MN: I think there is a lot of like, especially when you're younger, you're kind of like shown what depression is. Yeah. And we kind of have that in our head too. And we kind of make it into this super bad thing that like, if you do it, you're hurting other people. You know, we have a lot of things that we say like, you're lazy. Yeah. I think that has a huge effect on it too. Not just like the religious part, but also what we teach people about it and how we talk about it.

SW: Yeah. Do you think talking about it, maybe like you're doing with me or in other places, if it's not done in a certain way, do think that can be harmful for you or people who might hear it?

MN: Yeah, I think so.

SW: So, because I'm always trying to learn how to better do this stuff. So what do you think are the like, are there certain things that people should know when they talk to people. You shared some, you know, because even if someone is well intentioned, they may not realize like, I don't know what I'm doing.

MN: I think knowing your audience is really important because I know like I've almost been like triggered by somebody who is talking to me about like things that have happened to them. So like kind of just knowing what you can and can't be saying. Because really we shouldn't have to hide anything that's ever happened to us, but I'm not gonna go into like super explicit detail with somebody who went through the same thing and probably isn't ready to hear that.

SW: Yeah, from my point of view, it's tricky because I don't know. You know, it's a podcast, so it's like never been easier for people just to find stuff. Right. Boom. It's on their phone. You got Spotify. You got Apple. Boom. So, I think it's really important to have very frank conversations, but that's also in the back of my mind, you know, so I don't know.

MN: Yeah, and I feel like like with younger kids who don't might not know that much about it and who might be thinking about suicide themselves. I feel like you need to be a little bit more careful with them because you need to you need to make sure you can talk to them about getting help and not just talk to them about, you all the different ways that you can like don't be telling them about your own stories and telling them exactly what you did, try to talk to them a little bit more about going to a professional and getting help. You want to like make sure that they're not just getting ideas that they're actually talking about it with someone.

SW: Yeah. And I noticed when you shared about your attempts, you didn't share the way you did it. Is that part of the reason you don't want to give people ideas?

MN: It's more because if I tell people sometimes they I did it by overdosing all three times and sometimes if I tell people that like my friends will try to be some kind of like savior and come in and like suicide proof my apartment and it's kind of annoying

SW: Right. What does that mean, suicide proof?

MN: When I told one of my friends about it, she like came into my apartment, took out all my pills, took out like any knives she said that I didn't need. And I understand that she was like trying to help, but it didn't help at all, you know? It just kind of, it made me feel like a kid. It made me feel like I was getting punished for it.

SW: Yeah. And she is a friend.

MN: Yeah, in her mind, she probably thought that she was doing something like really good. She, I don't think she like really understood that just because you're depressed doesn't mean you're a flight risk 24 seven. Like if I don't, I'm not just constantly sitting here thinking about the next way I can do it. Like I might be suicidal, but I'm, it's not my only goal right now. Yeah. If that makes sense.

SW: Yeah, of course it makes sense.

MN: And I don't think, like, I think that's something that people don't understand is that I might be suicidal, but I'm not suicidal all the time.

SW: But some people are. They're regularly, actively, intensely ideating, maybe planning.

MN: Yeah, some people are and they do need a lot more intense help, but that help is going to come from a professional. You know, it's not going to come from some friend who thinks that they know best. It's not going to be some knight in shining armor. It's going to be someone who has done it before and knows what they're doing.

SW: Yeah. Did you ever watch the show, what was it called, ‘13 Reasons Why.’ 

MN: No, no, I heard a lot of things about it and I didn't want to try it.

SW: I didn't either, so I was gonna ask you, but you didn't see me either. I just heard that it was controversial.

MN: I heard a lot about people saying that like she tried, they were trying to like say that her suicide was okay because it was other people's fault. I don't know, I never saw the movie, or the show, I guess it's a show. I never saw it, but people were telling me like that was in it. And I was like, I don't wanna watch that, because I feel like if I do, I'm gonna get some bad ideas.

SW: Maybe, I'm, that was smart of you. Yeah. Well, it just makes me think of your friend or, I'm not picking on your friend, but you know, people treating you like a kid and that decision, just as one example that you made is very much not a child's decision. You thought, okay, that might be bad for me. I'm not gonna do that. 

MN: Yeah, as you grow up with it, especially because I've been dealing with this for about eight years now, which like there are people who are way older than me who have been dealing with it for way longer. Like you find ways to cope. Like I was saying before, you know, I'm always depressed. You know, it's never really gonna be cured. I'm not ever gonna find a miracle cure and just not be depressed. But now that I'm older, I know ways to cope with it, I know how take care of myself. I know things that I should and shouldn't see and I don't like go out looking for them. And that's something I didn't really do when I was younger. It's something that, you it's a learning process. I'm still learning more about it all the time.

SW: Yeah. What's one or two other things that you do that either like sort of in the world of coping that helps?

MN: I have stopped trying to self-medicate. I kind of realized by myself that I was drinking way too much and I brought it up with my therapist and you know, we came up with like a whole plan. We talked about like me not drinking as much. Like that's something that I had to kind of figure out for myself. I didn't really have anybody there to point it out for me. And also just I have...I've like found ways to keep pushing myself forward. Because a lot of times, I'll just, I'll feel too depressed. I'm like, I can't do anything. I have to just sit here and I've found ways that I can try to get over that and do even small things. Like if I have a, if I have a big to-do list, you know, breaking down all of my items really helps me because then I don't see it as one huge thing. I just see it as like, need to get up and put a load of laundry in.

SW: 100%, right now my car's a mess. And seriously, I'm thinking to myself, and when I think about the whole thing, I'mn: not doing it. But then I'm like, all you can just clean off your front seat. You know, and you do this. So I know that's the way I, not to compare, something resonated when you said that, like, the overwhelm, you know?

MN: Yeah, like my room right now, my whole apartment's a mess, but my room is really, really bad. And I was just kind of looking at it and it's mostly just a bunch of laundry everywhere. And I was looking, I was like, I can't do this. Like this is too much. And then yesterday I just, picked up one load off of the ground and I went and I washed it and I did that. And it wasn't all of it, you know, it barely put a dent in it, but it's one thing that I was able to do that I didn't do before.

SW: Yeah. Have you stopped your work as a medic?

MN: I was only in school as a medic and I was working for a little bit and then the pandemic happened and I couldn't get enough hours at a hospital to pay my bills, but I couldn't work another job technically. So I had to stop so I could work my other jobs full time.

SW: Are you near a large city? What's a large city for North Dakota? I'm originally from New York, so I apologize if that sounded snobby.

MN: I live in probably the smallest of the three big cities here. I live up in Grand Forks up by the border. I originally came from Minneapolis, a big city. It's very small up here.

SW: How long have you been there?

MN: A year now.

SW: A year. All right. So that probably isn't a super easy transition from a place like Minneapolis to Grand Forks, North Dakota.

MN: No, it's really different up here. Yeah. Planning on moving again soon, either to Winnipeg or to a commune in Oregon.

SW: Wait, let's back up. Why might you go to Winnipeg?

MN: To go to school up there instead. Yeah, go see a new country, try some new things.

SW: Okay but here's my question. Nothing wrong with Winnipeg. I've never been there. I'm sure it's lovely, but it could be Vancouver or it could be Edmonton. Why Winnipeg? Is there a particular school or a person or something there?

MN: I've just been up there a couple of times because I mean it's Canada I'm still 20 up there it's up there it's 18 so like I've been up there a couple of times and I just really like the city.

SW:  Or you did mention a commune possibility out in the Northwest, right? Where is that? You said in Oregon?

MN: Yeah.

SW: What kind of commune? Or does that even make sense? What kind of commune?

MN: It's like an eco-living community. I've always wanted to live on a commune. I was like, I can either go to college or I can go live in a yurt.

SW: You could go live in a yurt, yes. It would be amazing experiences, I'm sure, you know, learning and fun and whatever else. If you go to that commune, keep a journal, because I wouldn't be surprised, though I don't know if that also helped mental health stuff, being in community and whatever is involved with that.

MN: I would think so, because I know like my mental health gets really, really bad when I'm left alone or like when I don't have anybody, which I live alone right now and that's really difficult. That was one of the biggest reasons why I was thinking about going to live in one was just having a huge community there, like having all of these people that are basically your family with you all the time. Just sounds really nice.

SW: And now we've been in a lockdown for months. So has that affected your life? Have you have less contact with people, whether it be for work or other stuff?

MN: Yeah, I've had a lot less contact. Because during the middle of the pandemic, I moved from an apartment with two other people to one by myself. And I was really lonely and not doing too well for the first couple of weeks until I got an emotional support animal. And that helped a lot.

SW: What? What? Not the fly.

MN: No, I have two cats. Yeah, they help a lot. It's really helpful too that Cupid and Julius are two of the touchiest and cuddliest cats I've ever met. So sometimes I'll be sitting in bed crying and it's really hard to cry when you have two cats laying on top of you and like purring.

SW: Yeah. OK, maybe they'll make a quick appearance for us. You can see them.

MN: I got one sleeping right here. Come here, baby.

SW: This is of course a podcast so nobody can see it. All right. So for those of you that are listening, Madi is holding, is that Cupid? 

MN: This is Orange Julius. 

SW: Oh that makes sense. He's sort of an orange-ish and he seems really friendly and cuddly.

MN: He is. He's very chill. He's like a little, limp noodle when you hold him.

SW: And the other one is a little more hyper.

MN: She likes to be held just as much, but she likes to be held her own way.

SW: Cupid got it. Cool. I'm glad they're helping. They're cute.

MN: I think emotional support animals can sometimes, like the program gets a little bit abused, but I'm really glad that mine can help me out.

SW: So if there are people listening, and I don't know who's listening, I know we've been heard in 49 countries, isn't that cool? I'm psyched by that!

MN: Yeah. I can't even name 49 countries.

SW: Right. And I don't know who they are. Some people probably have tried, maybe some people who are contemplating, maybe people whose family or friends are in that space. So if you could say something to the people out there who are hearing this and maybe their brother or their friend or their wife, girlfriend, whoever is really down contemplating or maybe attempted and still in a funky space. Is there anything you could say to them, that maybe you would have liked people in your life to know.

MN: You just, you need to talk about it. You need to just ask them, Hey, are you doing okay? Like, is there anything I can do to help? Don't try to make it some huge, big grand gesture. You know, just send them a little text and say, Hey, how you doing? Do you want me to bring anything over? Do you want to just like, what do you need from me right now? I think that when we think someone is contemplating or is depressed, we kind of just go in to this like fight or flight, like I have to do something big to help them or like, I don't know what to do and I'm just not going to do anything. And it doesn't need to be something big. You just need to, you know, ask, Hey, how are you? Like, are you okay? Maybe they just need someone to listen for a little bit. Maybe they need someone to help them get some help. But a lot of times it's really hard to actually ask for that. So you just kind of need to make the first step.

SW:  The fact that you tried a few weeks ago, really, was like, huh. So I'm obviously glad you're okay. That's to state, the obvious. But are there people in your life who are offering that to you? I guess it's a little weird because they don't know, right? Yeah. But do you have people in your life? I know you have a therapist and I know it might be tricky, but are there people around or are you trying to do this solo?

MN: Yeah, I have some people. I have one of my best friends actually had like a similar origin story to me, I guess. We both had like very, very bad family issues and we both kind of like have the same issues today. So it's really nice to be able to talk with her because she will. She's really open about everything too, so we can kind of just if we need to talk about anything at all.

We're always there for each other. When I was younger, I used to be really codependent on people. And so it's a little bit difficult now being older, trying to walk that line of being supportive of each other and being dependent on each other.

SW: It seems like you have a very heightened sense or mature sense of awareness. Like you kind of really understand yourself more and more at 20 years old. I wish I, you know, when I was that age, it's like, I dunno, maybe I was decent, but I just felt like I knew nothing. You know stuff.

MN: I, it's been a really long process just cause I started like with all of this so young. One of my earlier therapists when I was like 16 or something, she always told me that like your mental illness is an explanation, but it's not an excuse. You might be having these problems and like your mental illness isn't, is like the reason for these problems. But she said, it's never an excuse. And she said, you need to listen to yourself. You need to know what you're doing and know why you're doing that. Yeah, that just kind of stuck with me. So I've always tried to figure out why I have these problems instead of just that I have them.

SW: The other part of that question that I asked a few minutes ago to the listeners of the podcast, another group of people are the people in pain. Those that are there, those that might be thinking about it again. This is tough because you don't know anything about them. Really. Do you have any words for them?

MN: Just kind of the same thing that you need to try to talk about it. I don't think talking is just like the magical solution. I don't think if I just talk with someone, all of my issues are fixed. I feel perfectly fine now. But if you're talking with someone, that's the first step to actually getting help for it, figuring out what's going on and figuring out how you can take care of it.

SW: Yeah, like you're doing here with me, which I really appreciate.

MN: Yeah, yeah, like you don't have to sit down and give someone your whole life story. But, you know, if you have a friend that you're close to, or if you have a family member, and I mean, even if you don't have anybody, if you just call a hotline, you know, you just at least admitting I need help is a huge thing.

SW: Huge.

MN: It can be really hard. It can be really, really hard, especially with how some people treat it, but it's a really big step.

SW: Yeah. So we've been talking for like 40 or so minutes. You live alone. You've been sharing with me this stuff. And at some point we're going to stop talking. This might be a weird question, but do you feel okay?

MN: Yeah, I feel fine right now. I'm actually going to work after this.

SW: Good. I mean, I know there's little I could do if you weren't feeling okay and we have no guarantees, but I always wonder. What's one thing in your life? This might be an annoying question. If somebody asked me this, I might roll my eyes. But is there one thing in your life that brings you, other than your cats, brings you joy?

MN: Cartoons.

SW: Never heard that before. Watching cartoons. Do you have a favorite?

MN: Gravity Falls or F is for Family.

SW: I am so out of the loop. Where are those aired?

MN: One's on Netflix and one's on Hulu.

SW: Nice. All right, so cartoons, cats. What do you for work these days?

MN: I work at a gas station and in a kitchen.

SW: Hmm, not super fun?

MN: I love my kitchen job a lot, but I work overnights at a truck stop in the middle of nowhere. It's not too much fun.

SW: And not maybe, is it safe?

MN: No.

SW: Okay, but you got to do what you got to do, I guess, right?

MN: Yeah, I It's expensive to live, you know?

SW: It's not cheap, that's for damn sure. I just caught that Midwestern accent that I guess it's a “Minnesota’. Yeah, that area of the country. cool. Well, Madi, thank you so much. I appreciate your candor and your courage and sharing stuff with me. So I think people hear it and benefit from it. Awesome. Thanks again and hope you have a really good day.

MN: : Yeah, you too.

SW: All right. Bye, Madi. Take care. 

As always, thank you so much for listening and special thanks to Madi up in North Dakota. We drop new episodes every Monday and Thursday morning, so stay tuned for those. Again, if you are a suicide attempt survivor and would like to share your story, reach out. Hello@SuicideNoted.com. I so much appreciate the continued support by everybody who's listening and sharing and doing all the things to support this podcast. So thank you. Until we connect again, stay strong, do the very best you can. I'll talk to you soon.