Sept. 3, 2020
SW = Sean Wellington, KI = Kim in Illinois
KI: Look for the support because it's out there. A lot of people are looking to their family members. If you want to live, be an advocate for yourself.
SW: Hey there, my name is Sean and this is Suicide Noted. On this podcast, I talk with suicide attempt survivors so that we can hear their stories. Every year around the world, millions of people try to take their own lives and we don't talk much about it. When we do talk about it, most of us are not very good at it. And that includes me. So one of my goals with this podcast is to have more conversations, and hopefully better conversations with attempt survivors. If you like this podcast and are learning from this podcast, please keep doing exactly what you're doing right now, which is listening. You can also help us out by letting folks know about it. You can rate it or review it. This allows more people to find it. More people in more places, places like Croatia and Ecuador and Chile and Switzerland. This podcast has been found in those countries. Folks there who need to hear these survivor stories are hearing them. So let's keep that going. If you are a suicide attempt survivor and would like to share your story with us, I'd love to talk. You can email us at hello@suicidenoted.com Today I am talking with Kim. Kim lives in Illinois and she is a suicide attempt survivor. Hi Kim.
KI: : Hey, how you doing?
SW: : Hi Kim, how are you?
KI: I'm doing good.
SW: Thank you so much for doing this, I really appreciate it.
KI: Yeah, no problem. I'm really open. I believe that my personal belief is that the shame around mental illness needs to stop. So I have no shame. I have no sort of ‘don't go areas’ I think at all. You know, people wouldn't hesitate to talk about cancer. I wouldn't hesitate to talk about this. It's something that's been in my family. I've lost several members of my family to suicide and almost myself. And I just think it's so important, such an important conversation. I'm really grateful to you that you're having it.
SW: Thank you, I mean, it's interesting because a couple things. You had mentioned cancer though. This is before my time, but there was a time in which people whispered cancer.
KI: Yeah
SW: So you know, maybe it is just a matter of time and things like this. There's obviously many other things out there that try to sort of decrease shame or…
KI: Yeah, I hope it gets there.
SW: You know, around the world every year, millions of people try to end their lives, millions. And I've only been doing this for about a month. So we've had about 10 guests, 12 guests. It's not easy to find people who are willing and open to share their story around their attempt or attempts. And there are, now I might be able to reduce some of that millions to people, you know, I'm not gonna interview people who don't speak English, but nonetheless, what do you think, I wanna talk about you, but while we talk about that, why do you think it is so challenging for me to find people to say, sure, I'll talk about it.
KI: Well, think, you know, people still, there's still so much stigma attached to it. I mean, even within the confines of my own life, I've just always been a very open minded person. I grew up in a household that was covered in lies about it, you know? So I'm the type, I like to rip the covers off. But I think...a lot of people, I'll give you an excellent example. My grandfather took his life and we could never deal with it in our family. It was an ‘accident.’
SW: So you didn't talk about it.
KI: We couldn't talk about it.
SW: Did you know it was a suicide when that happened and you didn't talk about it or was just an accident?
KI: When I was a little older, I figured it out because it's like, wait a minute. He went into his garage and closed all the doors and left his car running and they found a bottle of alcohol in the car when they found him. That's not an accident. I heard a lot about it when I was little. I just knew that I couldn't talk about it. Nobody did. You know, the Catholic religion, which I was brought up in, and I don't want to offend anybody's religious leanings, but they are the ones who made it a mortal sin. Thus, attaching all the shame to mental illness, my grandmother and my mom were kind of Catholics that were sort of, I don't know, I guess bordering on insanity. So that's why we couldn't talk about it. And what ended up happening with that, it is my belief that if people could grieve suicide the way other people grieve another type of death, it wouldn't run in families so much as it does. Because I don't know about you with your research and things, but for me, my grandfather took his life. My mother tried to take her life for five years. She was in mental institutions, in and out. I tried to take my life, was almost successful at 30. My sister died of an overdose. Two of my cousin's children hung themselves. It's pervasive in a family once it shows up. And I don't know why that is, but I've seen it in my own life, you know.
SW: Right, like so we could speculate that there might be a genetic component.
KI: I think it's more social though. I think depression is genetic. I think that's been proven. With the suicide, I don't know. I think that there's something about it that once it happens in a family, it becomes an option of dealing with pain.
SW: Maybe so. One of my goals here, I'm always wary of, you know, we all have this sort of inherent judgment and that's the last thing I ever want to do. But here's the thing I'm wondering. If a family has this thing, it almost becomes like a legacy, right, of this ongoing pain and people attempting to end their lives. And you would think that not talking about it isn't helping. And presumably they don't want this to continue, that they would find a way to talk about it. And yet they tend not to. Whatever that thing is in which, no, I don't wanna talk about it, even though I know that might be one reason why people continue to try to do this, that must be a very powerful thing people are feeling to not discuss it. That was a very long-winded comment or question there.
KI: No, so was my answer before. But, you know, I just can think of nothing else but the shame of what they're feeling surrounded by it, because that's what I don't know about you. But that's what I was taught. You know, you don't talk about that stuff. That's and that's why I am,
this might sound a little messed up, but I'm excited to talk about it. I think it needs to be talked about. I think the more we talk about it, the more it takes, you know, it starts unveiling those layers of shame attached to it. You know, one of my biggest pet peeves, I even heard this recently, was, it's so selfish. It's like, bullshit. I don't know if there's anything connected to it that makes me angrier than that response. There's so, when I was there, I really believed the world would be better off. I really believed that. And I was in so much pain. know, people that do that are in so much pain that they just can't, they can't do it anymore. It's a very… so when I hear that, it's almost like I will stop being friends with somebody who says something that stupid. Or if we're good enough friends at that point, I will like, you know, listen, I need to talk to you about this and what it means and hopefully be able to educate them in that way.
SW: Does that ever work out?
KI: No, because it's usually at that point… I just, there are certain types of people I just can't interact with. Like I can be polite and, but as soon as I sort of catch that vibe, I'm pretty much out of there.
SW: And, again, I'm filtering my world through my own experiences, but I'm going to, and you'll tell me if I'm wrong, that we probably have similar experiences in that for me, that vibe is usually quite clear quite early on in that exchange. up here it is. Boom. Here it is.
KI: You know, I feel lucky because in AA, it's sort of like this wonderful union of misfits or what the society deems as that. I can't believe I resisted it for so long because the people I've met in AA are some of the most beautiful people I've ever met. There's so much acceptance there and you just don't find that in life.
SW: We as a culture, and it's probably not just our culture, we do a really good job of almost demonizing, not just people who have tried to end their lives, but addicts…Just a long list of that. You're this word you're you try to kill yourself or you're a heroin addict or you're an alcoholic. And it's just weird. You just know nothing about them!
KI: Well, and I think people, the harder they rail against it, I've often found that they suffer from it. So it's just sort of this, you know, if I deny it long enough, if I pretend everything is okay, nobody will know. I always come back to what the Catholic Church did to that, you know, because, you know, I believe that this recent Pope has sort of rescinded that mortal sin thing. But you know, when you look at the generations and generations of people that grew up around that idea that it's a sin and a mortal sin, which is not just any old sin. You know, that puts such a stigma on it right away. You know, and one that wouldn't have been in place, would we have been allowed to deal with it differently. Because I don't know about you, but we lost our best friend, he hung himself too. I think it's going on seven years.
SW: I was brought up as a really sort of casual, in real casual reform Judaism. I don't know much about that religion. I do know that suicide is an absolute no-no. I don't know if there's a similar sort of guilt thing or shame thing, but if you're feeling that way, good luck talking to other Jews. Or your spiritual advisor whether it's a rabbi or cantor I don't know, it's not been my experience that they're not open to you saying okay you know this is how you're feeling. When you start like you said with ‘this is an absolute no-no, it doesn't leave much room or space to feel and talk. So your attempts, I wanna learn more about that and I guess you can, it's your story so you can frame it however you want. I'm always curious, in as much as it's possible to put these things into words, sort of what your life was like before or sort of what led up to it or when you first started thinking about it and then the actual events.
KI: Okay, I grew up in a pretty scary household. There was a lot of trauma, a lot of abuse, both physical and sexual, which I didn't really learn about until much later in my life. But it was just, it was a very scary place. And so there was a lot of, you know, along with addiction, there was a dual diagnosis of depression and trauma and you know sort of all of that stuff sort of in one big messed up shit pot. I had moved to Chicago to be with my husband. I'm from Minneapolis and I first got sober as a teenager. I was doing very heavy drugs. I was shooting up.
SW: Does that mean heroin? Shooting up?
KI: No, I was cocaine. did cocaine. Thank God. I mean, if somebody would have offered me heroin, I probably would have. I've thought that a lot in my life, you know? It's, I just was the luck of the draw, sort of, if you can, I mean, if that's lucky.
SW: I always hesitate to ever do anything that sounds like a sort of comparison, but I'm the exact same way. I had a couple of years of heavy cocaine use and then and more so after I think I'm really lucky no one offered me heroin. I don't think I'd be here.
KI: I don't think I'd be here either. I really don't. Because it's addiction has been a big part of my life. You know, so growing up in my house was very scary. My mom was very abusive. My dad avoided her by working and it was just a very scary place. She was an alcoholic and that she was also dealing with her own demons. She had been raped and I may have witnessed part of that. And so she had a lot going on too. As I've gotten older, I've tried to forgive her because of what she was dealing with. But at any rate, I was called into my school counselor's office. This is kind of how it got started on the road to recovery. I was a really talented athlete and I had, when I started doing drugs, I dropped out of everything. It was kind of sad that it was the athletics that drove them to get me into the office to see what was going on, you know, instead of the grades, you know what I'm saying? But anyway, there was something about this man that I really, really trusted. He was very kind and not your typical school administrator type. And I had a lifetime of pain in my house and I just kind of let it all go in his office that day. And he called my dad in first and then they set up an intervention with my mom. Initially it was terrifying, you know, because she just absolutely flipped her lid and I didn't know what home life was going to be like after that.
SW: You're 15 years old at this time?
KI: No, then I was 14.
SW: Wow, you are a baby!
KI: Drugs had just kind of started. They hadn't progressed at this point to the point that they did. When I was 15 is when I went into treatment. 15 into 16. Anyway, yeah I was a baby. I think about it now with my own daughter. It's like, my God. So she eventually went to treatment. The problem with my mom is that unveiled all of the mental illness and all of the trauma. Cause once the alcohol goes away, you’re just sort of left like an open wound, you know? And then right after she went in, they found out that I was using needles and they put me in treatment right away. And I got out, I stayed sober until I was about 19. But at any rate, it was after my mom got sober that the suicide attempts started. And then, you know, she was in and out of mental hospitals for about five years. And they finally got down to the rape and dealt with the rape. And she saw a different type of psychiatrist that took a look at her hormones, which ended up being the magic pill. You know, she was able to get better. Unfortunately, as soon as she got better, she died of cancer. So it was, yeah, it was kind of hard, you know, because I felt like I had just gotten her back for like the first time in my life. And she died of cancer when I was 21. When I was 19, I decided I could smoke weed again. It seemed pretty harmless. And it wasn't long after that that I started drinking again. Those years between when it really started ramping up was right around the time I was about 23. And it just got really bad. It was a fifth of a day. I was bartending. I was in the restaurant industry. You can seal it because that industry is full of us! Because of my experience as a teenager, I knew I was an alcoholic. You know, there wasn't a lot of gray area there. You know, when you're mixing soy sauce and water together to make it look like you haven't drunk a whole bottle of bourbon. That might be a problem, you know, like it's just. Yeah, right. And so it got really bad and he was going to leave me and he should have you know? I would have left me and I just couldn't stop. I had tried for a year. I kept going back out, kept going back out. I'd get about a month and I'd go back out. And that process of trying to get sober it's so soul crushing. There's all this leftover trauma from childhood that you're swimming around in. So when I was 30, I had had enough and I couldn't stop drinking. knew I was going to lose my husband and I took two large bottles of Tylenol PM, a fifth of bourbon, Six pack beer, bottle of wine and it's so funny that I remember it…
SW: Interesting that you remember.
KI: So vividly. I didn't have a lot of blackouts like other alcoholics I know, but I mean I also didn't remember things in vivid detail, you know, like that.
SW: Maybe it's something with the brain in that it knows, okay, this is some seriously high-stakes stuff and it sort of is etched in there forever somehow.
KI: Well, I wanted to die. This was no like, you know, you hear about people making an attempt to just…the fact that you want to die in my mind says it's serious, you know, but I was as serious as a heart attack. I wanted to go and end my life. I'm amazed that I survived that, you know.
SW: Yeah, it's, you know, you said something earlier about people saying it's selfish. I've heard other things similar, selfish and lazy. And I share that because similarly I also hear people say, well, you don't, didn't really want to die. It was a cry for help, perhaps. Other people I've spoken to some, and I asked that question and you've, you've already answered it. I'll ask, did you want to die or was it something else? That something else might be, I just wanted the pain to stop or whatever it might be. And I get different answers. Some people like you say, no I wanted out.
KI: I wanted, I mean that's why I took as much Tylenol as I did, you know? I mean, that's a pretty profound amount. And I wanted out, I just wanted out. When I woke up from that, it was the strangest thing. And it's funny because, you know, memories for me are weird. I don't have a lot of them when I was a kid and the ones I do have are really vivid and generally not positive. You know, but I remember waking up, I was on my couch in our condo and I woke up and I just, my first thought was why am I still alive? Why am I still here? I'm supposed to be dead, you know? And I remember that happening to my mom too. She got really upset when she woke up, but she really shouldn't have. My dad happened to come, this was one of her suicide attempts, he happened to come home because he forgot something. If he hadn't come home, she would have been dead. And when she woke up at the hospital, she was so angry, you know, to still be here. And I remember, I didn't feel angry so much as I was like, how is that possible that I am still alive after doing that? But then, you know, kind of a thought entered my mind like, well, maybe you're just not supposed to die. Maybe God wants something different for you. I don't know. But I did believe in a higher, you know, I believed in something larger than me, whether it was the universe, God, whatever. But it also occurred to me at that point, I am not going to drink again.
SW: Really?
KI: After struggling so hard for so long, it just left. And I didn't drink for 17 years.
SW: When you used to go in and drink a lot, right? There was, I assume it was part of it, right? Like you were saying, lifestyle or where you were working or sort of habits. But for me, somebody who's on again, off again, struggled with alcohol. I know that often I'm just pulled to have a few drinks. I can just feel better. I know it's not very complicated. I feel shitty, whatever that looks like. I have a couple glasses of wine or a couple beers. I feel better, right? This is one of the reasons people drink, pretty straightforward. And so it's really interesting to me that you were you after the suicide attempt and that sort of, I don't know if it's an epiphany, but that, I don't want to drink or I don't need to drink. Did you still have those feelings and you just didn't do it? Or you actually didn't have that, those feelings anymore. I want to drink.
KI: It just left, the obsession left. I can't explain it. I mean, it was just, I used to think, maybe in trying to take your life, you found your life. And things are very good for me for many years after that. I will tell you the quick hospital story though. I did have a because later that day, I mean, my stomach was just on fire. It was, I was in a lot of pain. I also had hepatitis C, but I didn't know it. You know, from my drug use when I was younger, I didn't get diagnosed with it until I was 48, which was, by the way, the year that I started drinking again. So I went into the hospital because of the stomach pain and I just have the funniest memory of this nurse. She was this little Asian lady and they were trying to empty my system out to do the barium so they could take a look at my organs. But there was this little Asian nurse that was like, ‘Good morning Mrs. Shawad! Time for poo poo pee pee!’ You know like, it was, I don't know why. That's just memorable in my head, you know, it was like, it was just funny. But what was not funny is when they were able to get a look at my organs, my liver, I was on the onset of cirrhosis at 30 years of age. But the doctor just was like, look, if you continue to drink, you're going to die. And I don't mean like in a year or two years, like you were on the onset of cirrhosis. And once that happens, it goes fast. That was pretty scary, you know, the human body is an amazing vessel. And when I got out of there, I was also overweight at that point too, cause I wasn't one of those lucky skinny alcoholics. got bloated. But I started on that journey as well. And when you get your life back after being in that sort of awfulness, it's amazing. It's amazing. It's kind of what I'm going through right now. It's like you've gone from black and white to color, to technicolor. it starts getting better. You get all your talents back, all your passions, all the things that make life worth living. And then I got pregnant about five years sober and had my daughter. I didn't want to have children. I was terrified of it. I was scared to do to her what was done to me. My husband knew this and he thought that I'd be a great mom. And so after many years of talking about it, I finally decided, well, okay, we can try. And it took a couple years, there were some issues there, but I did end up getting pregnant. And it's funny, I have a lot of friends who couldn't wait. You know, just totally romanticized the idea. I, on the other hand, was terrified of, my God I'm gonna be a horrible mother and what if I do this and what if I do that? And, you know, what if, what if, what if, you know, I was just so afraid. And so it's so weird because I loved it. I mean, it was the opposite of that, it wasn't easy. It was, you know, sleepless nights, all of that, but it was more than I had ever, I had heard someone say once, they said for them, motherhood closed up a massive hole in their heart without trying to. You shouldn't have kids for that reason. That's not like the reason you have a child, but that was one of the benefits. Filled up a hole inside of me with love that I didn't think would ever be filled.
SW: You could argue, or I could, that a lot of the reason people drink and drug and other things is to fill that hole.
KI: Right
SW: One of the, I'm not trying to simplify it, but…
KI: No, no, you're totally right. For me, the drinking, it squashed the anger I had about what happened to me when I was younger. It was the only thing that could. It was the only thing that could tamp that down. But things were really good for a really long time until they weren't. And so right around, it was a couple of years before I started drinking again. But a lot of shit went down. My husband lost his job. We were losing everything, you know, financially. We didn't, we managed to hold onto the house, but that was about it. We lost our entire down payment in the economic downturn. This is right around that time. Then my sister died of an overdose. My best friend on the planet had cancer. She eventually passed away. And my daughter, the worst thing was my daughter started showing really signs of our illness. She started hurting herself in third grade, or no, fifth grade. She'd taken scissors in the class to her arm because she was so frustrated. And so it was like my worst nightmare was coming true. You know, this is why I didn't want to have kids. The marriage was in the shitter. You know, a couple of things that I just really couldn't get past. And there was so much more. I was working as a store manager because we really needed health insurance and paying through the nose for it. So I got a job as a manager at an Anthropology and it was like working with your high school mean girls on top of my life just exploding in my face and dealing with this in my work life and it just it got to be too much you know it was so much in such a short period of time. This the same time our best friends hung himself. There was just so much loss and so much it just was overwhelming. In my kitchen one day, my sister-in-law was here and she was one of those toxic people and she was lecturing me in my kitchen about the screen time I allowed my daughter to have and just like you know, blah blah blah kind of thing. I mean especially like that my life was just imploding and here she is.
SW: Everybody likes being lectured in their own home.
KI: And I'd used a bottle of Grand Marnier for a recipe years before and I just sat there on my counter for years. I didn't care. I didn't want it. If you would have even told me a day before I picked up again that I would pick up again I would have said you're out of your mind. There is no way. But here I was in my kitchen and my life is just kind of swirling and my sister-in-law is out there doing her thing. And I just, my eyes locked on that bottle of Grand Marnier and I picked it up. I poured myself a shot. That was a little over six years ago. I was out there for two years. It got really bad again, you know, but I thought I'm not going to take my life because I have a child and I have to somehow rally here. And I knew, you know, the frustrating part was I knew how great silver life was. Thank God, because if I hadn't, I don't know that I'd be here right now.
SW: Right, Ithink that's actually a huge point, a really big, because if you don't have that as any kind of reference point, like, but you have no reference point, like…
KI: Right, if you don't know, you don't know, you know,
SW: No, you don't know. like, I think that's what often gets lost with some people in terms of people around suicide attempt survivors, because they go into what's an understandable emergency mode of keeping you alive. But I think sometimes what gets lost is now what?
I'm glad for you that after that attempt when you were 30, there was some, it seemed like a different sort of take on things and it made it manageable, if not better.
KI: Yeah, there was still a lot of trauma that I wasn't dealing with. So that was always, you know, that's always under the surface.
SW: In your late 40s, I believe you got a shot of Grand Marnier.
KI: Yeah, that's what brought me back out. I don't know how much you know about alcoholism, but once that, once it's uncorked, especially after a long stretch of not drinking. Now I can't call that sobriety because I was smoking weed intermittently and towards the end I was taking pills towards the end of that 17 year period of not drinking. So both those things, I think, opened up the pathway. Those things were present. I can't say, but they were present and I did drink. And once the drinking started, I was out there for two years and I got really, really sick. And I started trying to get sober again when I was 50. I'm 54 now. It's taken me four plus years. I'm now at about seven months of sobriety.
SW: : Congratulations on that. Yeah.
KI: : I did try to take my life last winter, again. And I didn't think I'd ever get there because of my daughter. But I just couldn't do it.
SW: Yeah, what changed?
KI: Um, just utter despair. Now you want to talk about shame. Addiction has so much shame attached to it. I mean, that I don't know will ever change because people consider it, um, like you want to be there. Even my own husband does, you know, he thought it was fun.
SW: Right, you just want to party all the time.
KI: Fun, fun, sitting in my bedroom at night alone, watching YouTube videos, crying, waking up, getting so sick I'd throw up blood. I mean, it's just, it's laughable to me when I think about it. It's like, oh yeah, that was a lot of fun. And so I think a lot of people don't understand that it is a brain disorder. What really, I think, brought me to that place was I had been trying to get silver for four years and I just kept failing. And it's like I said before, before I turned 30, before I first took my life, or tried to when I was 30, it's like, it just keeps eroding your soul. I mean, cause to me, I think people that are in denial about their addiction are fucking lucky. That might sound really screwed up, but you know, I, there was never any question.
SW: Did you try the second time the same way?
KI: No, I just couldn't get up the courage slit my wrists. I was in my bathtub and I just wanted out.
SW: That is how you tried, by cutting your wrist? I know that there are some people who are very against talking about the method and I don't mean to get granular with it, but I'm not a mental health professional. I am somebody who thinks that having very frank conversations is generally healthy and people do need to hear it. I also don't think, and I'm curious what you think about this, perhaps with the exception of some younger kids, people know what's out there in terms of how, if that's something they feel compelled to do. I don't think you, for example, sharing that you took two bottles of this or went into a bathtub and took a razor is going to give anybody an idea. And do you agree? It is a bit of a loaded question, but I'm curious.
KI: Yeah, I mean, think, you know, you're talking about the age of information. If you want to do something, it's not too big of a mystery of how to figure it out, right? I don't know. I mean, for me, it's just what happened. Some people might feel that way. I don't know. Is that what the going thing is now?
SW: I don’t know if there is a ‘going thing’. There seems to be in certain circles, certain organizations, it's frowned upon, or you don't talk about it. And I'm not trying to push back this particular platform, I really want to have just very open conversations. And sometimes that's part of it. This is not an hour conversation on every moment of that experience for you, but that's how you did it.
KI: Right.
SW: I just want to better understand this thing of suicide. And that's part of it. The other part that I think people often shy away from, and I'm going to ask you is I'm curious for either of those attempts. Did you leave a note?
KI: You know, I did the first time and I don't think he read it. I don't think he saw it, which is interesting. No, I did not the second time. I thought at the end of December this year, there was a saying I heard that I love and it said, you know, grace is what comes in when you run out of your own resources. And Carolyn Mice or Miss, it's M-Y-S-S said that. And that really struck me because at the end of December this past year, I was done. I was just gonna drink myself to death. That was the plan since I wussed out on the cutting my wrist part. I thought, well, okay, I've got a compromised liver. I'm just gonna, that's it. But I had reached out to a bunch of AA people that had really been there for me over the course of the past four years. And I just wanted to thank them and just say, I'm sorry, but I can't do this anymore. I can't keep failing and I'm done. And I just wanted to say goodbye and thank you. And it was sincere. I felt bad. They had invested a lot in me. I don't know what happened. The amount of love that I got back from them and support and please don't give up…. I'm sorry, I still get a little.
SW: Yeah, yeah, take your time.
KI: I just decided to give it one more try. And there's an inpatient program or an outpatient program here called Chapman. It's at Evanston Hospital, which is Evanston's suburb right next Chicago. And I had been told for a couple years prior, you should go to Chapman. And I just kept thinking, what's the use? It's outpatient. What's that going to do? Blah, blah, blah. Of course, my way is always better than… and I went there. And I don't know what happened, Sean.
SW: When was that?
KI: That was in the beginning of January. And I sat in my car going in and I just thought I have to do something different. Please help me do something different. For me what that was is I didn't know it at the time. But certain people that told me, Kim, you haven't surrendered. Surrendering an addiction is… you're probably not going to get better if you just don't do that. You know, it's the first step stuff. I'd look at them and I'd just go ‘I know I'm an alcoholic. I know I'm gonna die from this disease. I don't know how to surrender any fucking harder. What does that mean?’
SW: What does that actually look like?
KI: For me, what it meant was letting go of the anger. The anger I had at my husband, the anger I had at what happened to me as a child, you know, and people I hurt. And I don't know. I mean, I don't know what happened, but it started draining. I didn't really even realize it until I look back on it now. And I got the gift again, which is, the obsession has been relieved and I didn't think I'd get it back. I really didn't.
SW: The surrender also sounds a lot like you have to, which I don't do what I'm about to say. I've got my own demons, but trust, like really trust people. And if, I don't know if you've, trust has been betrayed a bunch of times. It makes sense why you wouldn't be so quick. Like that's a tricky little beast there.
KI: Right. The whole thing of, know what doesn't let me down? A bottle of bourbon doesn't let me down. It's just fucked up because of course it does. But for me, what it did is it would just tamp down the anger and it would just work. And I think that is why there's so many of us in this program with the dual diagnosis. And you know what's interesting to me, some people in AA don't like it when you talk about the other part of your illness, which is depression and bipolar. There's a lot of bipolar and they don't want you to bring that up, which I find really interesting. It's like, well, that's crazy. I mean, that's kind of why I drank. I mean, I guess I can't speak for someone else, but so it's kind of weird. that still is it even in a place where it shouldn't be, it's still in place.
SW: It doesn't sound like there's ever going to be like the perfect space to just be whatever you are. Like there's always going to be even there like some like, why are you bringing that up?
KI: Yeah, it's interesting. Yeah.
SW: Talk about a test of your, just… You know, when people use these words like lazy and that comes up sometimes, I'm like, man, I feel blessed that I've never, and I don't know why this is, I've never thought of it that way. When I see somebody who's ended their life, I usually think of it as, man, they struggled hard, probably for a while. It's the opposite of crazy. Like just staying alive was probably really fucking hard. And they did it for weeks or months or years.
KI: I don’t know about you, but most people I know that have struggled with suicide are some pretty high energy folks. I'm sure there's the opposite of that, but like, I mean, I'm somebody, I don't really, I sit down in the morning when I have my coffee, you know, and I'll, I'm, cause I'm not working right now, but then it's like, okay, get on my bike, do some stuff around the house. I'm pretty much moving till the end of the day.
SW: I think it's similar to something you said earlier. I think it is thoroughly and completely misunderstood. Not a little bit. Thoroughly and completely. I get frustrated because I think most of the people that ultimately will hear this podcast, for example, I'm preaching to the choir. They already know. To take their lives or maybe I hope, you know, so can you or I or other people really get through to people who are just, I don't wanna be the guy who's like, nope, but sometimes I feel like you're like, you ain't gonna get it. I don't care if you and I were like poet laureates of our respective areas and could put into words these impossible feelings… not gonna get it. I'm like, what the fuck?
KI: Yeah. And what's so interesting to me is that just about every single person I know has been touched by it. Maybe not suicide, but they know someone who has. There's people in their family that struggle with depression or addiction or any of the impulsive disorders, you know, like any of the myriad. And, know, that's, that's what's so sad. You would think they would want to know more about it.
SW: Yes.
KI: If it were me, I don't think my husband wants to know more about it. Not interested. It's weird. It's like, if I had a type of illness, would you be interested then? Or would you avoid that too?
SW: It's weird. That is a whole other thing about, you know, people talk about, I don't know why they always compare it to diabetes. If you had diabetes, you would take medicine. And I think, yeah, but there's a difference. Diabetes is just, I mean, or a physical disease. If we can separate the two, which we like to do, particularly in Western culture, you know, but it's not the same. I get what they're saying is of course you want to treat it. Of course you shouldn't judge it and all that, but it's different. Different and I don't, I can't , I'm not eloquent in this regard, but…
KI: You're right, because growing up with it, and I don't know, like, if it would have been different if she wasn't abusive, you know, like if she was just sad. You know, I know I put my daughter through some stuff. I was not abusive at all. I was just sad.
SW: Yeah.
KI: And would that have changed…Like if that were me and that was my mom, would that have changed how frustrated I heard that I was, you know, and what's interesting is if I'm really honest, I've judged people in my life, I judged my sister. But that's kind of interesting, though, right? Because you'd think that we wouldn't, so that's kind of an interesting thing to look at. It's like, well, I don't feel that way anymore. But I did. Because I got my life together, she should be able to get her life together.
SW: There's that, yeah. And it also doesn't sound like in your case, but you know, sometimes the abused becomes the abuser in some form. And you feel held down and you're like, boom. It doesn't sound like that. But that reminds me of that. I think you would think that the last person in the world to abuse would be someone who was abused. But that's not always how it goes.
KI: it's not always the way it goes. I mean, I'm grateful that I wasn't that mom. Thank God. That's one thing I don't think I would have been able to live with.
SW: When you think about the way people responded after your two attempts, and that could be in the hospital or after your family, your friends, whomever, when you think about how they responded to you, what was the most harmful way people responded? And presumably they didn't even know that it was harmful.
KI: They didn't recognize it. You know, it's not like I wanted people to say, oh my God, she attempted suicide, but it was like it wasn't looked at. My dad, years after the fact, would, when I would talk about it, because my dad and I have always had a pretty open, we kind of describe ourselves as war buddies. And so I've always been really open with him. But it's like he still won't, oh you did that? Really? He doesn't believe it.
SW: We don’t talk about it, right? Things we don't talk about, we don't talk about.
KI: Well, if he were another person, then yeah, would, that would just be normal. But my dad and I talk about everything. It's not like we don't have a really open and frank relationship. So that's really weird. I think the fact that my husband never saw the suicide note is pretty weird. It's like, people just don't want to… ‘Nope that didn't happen. That didn't happen, even though you were in the hospital.
SW: And they know it absolutely did happen. Right?
KI: Yeah, but they don't… So that I think is harmful. It's like you're not being validated at all.
SW: I ask that not only because I'm curious, but there might be people hearing this who might be doing that and not realizing, this isn't helpful. And I don't assume that if they just hear your story, then that's gonna just, everything's gonna be fine. But you hear it enough times, maybe you recognize that you're doing that. Because I think that's part of the hardest thing is: ‘oh shit, I'm doing that.’ That's like, that's a tough one.
KI: People, I think if somebody hears this, I would like them to know that they should ask questions. Be curious about it. We'll need to talk about it.
SW: If somebody's hearing this that is in a position of like where your father or your husband or a friend was after yours, ask about it. Yeah.
KI: Yes, Okay, cool. As your friend. Can I listen to your story?
SW: Yeah, I was going to ask you sort of on the flip side of what doesn't help what helps but I think you just answered it. My filter is very un-PC and I always think, you use the word curiosity, which I think is the perfect word, and I'm not sure that people, I don't really know if that can really be cultivated. So, if someone's curious who isn't curious, I mean, I think of it as just give a shit. You've gotta bridge the gap of I give a shit, but you don't feel like I do. So how do we bridge that gap? So you need to feel it. Right, it's like, man!
KI: Yeah, you know, it's interesting talking about it because I never really kind of thought about it as much until right now. That it's like, ‘No, I don't want to look at that part of it. You're sick. I know you have problems, but I don't want to see that.’ And not helpful.
SW: There are a lot of people that attempt suicide. I don't have the numbers but it's a massive high number.
KI: Especially right now.
SW: And right now is not making it any better. I don't know for sure, but I'd have to say it's worse. This might be a really difficult question, and I don't know if you can answer it, but let's say you can speak to people who are considering. Like you did when you were 30 and at other points in your life, but there were a few that it really led to you trying. And you don't know them. You don't know their story. You don't know their situation, but… Is there anything you could say to them that might help ease their pain a little bit?
KI: Well, for me, coming out the other side of it. When you are a survivor of this, I don't know what the right words are. It feels amazing when you come out the other side. You're able to get the help that you need and find the support, but also look for the support because it's out there. A lot of people are looking to their family members.
SW: Not always the right move.
KI: No. If you want to live, be an advocate for yourself. Do things for yourself that support that, whatever that is. Support group, a therapist, something that you love doing. I'm an artist. That's what I love doing. I don't paint. My dad was a painter, but I do a lot of other stuff. Find something that you're passionate about because that supports your mental health. For me, talking about it helps and talking about it to people who understand it.
SW: You had said that your life had been black and white and then it got to the technicolor. And when you said that, I didn't say it at the time, but I'm looking at your bandana. And if you're on a podcast, you can't see it, but Kim's got a multicolored, nice bandana, which sort of is a nice symbol, I think. It sounds like from the earlier part of this year, you bottomed out like late last year, right? Early this year. And then you went into a lockdown pandemic. It's weird times. Do you think that you will try again?
KI: Not if I do everything I need to do to keep myself mentally healthy. And for me, that means a lot of things. It means for me staying sober, number one, number one. But also enriching those other parts of my life that I love. I'm passionate about cycling. There's nothing for me that …I don't know, I cycle in the woods, I'm near a forest preserve. I do it probably two hours a day on most days, unless it's inclement weather. Wow. And I love it. And it's like my version of church. Whatever your beliefs are, just speaking for myself, that spiritual element has helped tremendously. I look for it in different ways in music and my bike in the woods and my art and
the relationships, sounds kind of crazy, but that is a little lower down and it's only because you have to, in order to give the people in your life anything, you have to pay. If you're not okay, nothing else is okay. I think taking care of yourself has got to be number one. And I hope that I'm never back there. Thank God I'm never back there. And there are days where I still think about it. But I'm able to get myself to a different place with it.
SW: Yeah. Glad you failed those two times or weren't successful might be the better way to say it.
KI: Me too.
SW: Not only for your life and your family and friends, but you are on a podcast or other things you might do about it, directly or indirectly, I think people hear this and they maybe have a little more hope, or maybe they feel a little less alone or whatever it is. That's for me, that's big, man.
KI: Well, yeah, I mean, that's the other thing is it gets better. And I think, the times in my life that have come after those attempts…It's gotten better and life is worth living again. And it wasn't before.
SW: Yes, let us hope that this continues for you and whomever else.
KI: I really hope that over the course of the not so distant future that it becomes more of a conversation.
SW: We are going to try. It sounds a little maybe trite or cliche, but it's really not. Will we ever be to the point where almost everyone is able to have this conversation in a way that's non-judgmental? Probably not. But some people will get better at it and some people will see, maybe I should ask more questions to that person or maybe I should actually shut the fuck up and let them talk. Cause that's what they need to do. Or whatever it may be, right? Like that light bulb will go off for some people.
KI: Yes and that's what I was just going to say is that somebody will listen to it and say, I feel that way and I feel less insane. Because I don't know about you, but when I was in the insanity of it, boy, you feel so alone.
SW: You do, I mean I did my own story and yeah, that helped. I've had that feeling. So not to equate with yours, but I get what that is to feel alone. Perfectly, alone. Thank you very much for taking the time to share candidly.
KI: Yeah, of course. It's an honor to do it. It really is because hopefully, you know, the more people do this, it builds and I thank you.
SW: Absolutely. Like I said, it's a bit of a selfish endeavor, but hey, if it helps at all, I'm glad. One thing before I go, and that is: what's something you're doing today that's fun.
KI: Well, I'm about to get on my bike and probably be out there for a couple hours. It's about 78 degrees here. So it's really beautiful. And so I'm going to do that. And, then I don't know. The world is my oyster today.
SW: Great. Enjoy that bike ride, man. I'm going to do some swimming. But biking sounds pretty awesome.
KI: it's beautiful. It's just beautiful. It's the North Branch Trail here. It goes up to the Chicago Botanical Gardens, which aren't in Chicago. They're in the northern suburbs, but it's just gorgeous. You can't feel the city around you.
SW: Thank you so, so much again, Kim. I will, hopefully I'll talk to you soon. Enjoy your day. Enjoy your bike ride. As always, thanks so much for listening. Special thanks to Kim in Illinois. If you like the podcast, rate it, review it, subscribe to it. I know I say that a lot, but it really does help get these stories out there to more people. If you've got a story you'd like to share you can email us at hello@suicidenoted.com We drop new shows every Monday and Thursday morning. Until we connect again, stay strong, do the best you can.
I'll talk to you soon.