August 27, 2020 

SW = Sean Wellington, KP = Katie in Pennsylvania

KP: Picture yourself in a room with no windows, no doors, no way to get in and out. And you're the only person in there. There's no way of getting help. There's no way of letting anybody in and there's no way of getting out. Like I just, I felt so insanely trapped around this grief that at one point or another, I didn't think I would ever get out of it.

SW: Hey there, my name is Sean and this is Suicide Noted. On this podcast, I talk with suicide attempt survivors so that we can hear their stories. Every year around the world, millions of people try to take their own lives and we don't talk much about it. And when we do talk about it, most of us are not very good at it. And that includes me. So one of my goals with this podcast is to have more conversations with attempt survivors and hopefully better conversations. Certainly going to try. If you are a suicide attempt survivor and you'd like to share your story with us, I would love to talk. You can email us at hello@suicidenoted.com . If you'd like to support the podcast, well, you can listen to it like you're doing right now. You can let other people know about it and you can also rate the podcast. I'm not exactly sure how that works, but it does let more people find it. More people in more places. Like Mexico and Russia and Norway and Denmark, we've had listeners in these countries and I'm looking forward to more people in more places hearing these stories of survival. Today I'm talking with Katie. I also call her Kathleen during our interview. Katie lives in Pennsylvania and she is a suicide attempt survivor. Hey Kathleen, thank you so much for doing this.

KP: Yeah, absolutely. I was interested when I started reading about it.

SW: How did you find out about it?

KP: I have a crisis text line through the network.

SW: Are you a counselor also?

KP:  I've, I kind of just dove into it after having a rough history and go of life  and basically just helping others has really helped me get better.

SW: I don't know if people have done any research on this, but I'm pretty sure that the best counselors are the people who been through the toughest shit.

KP: Absolutely. Pulling personal experience, I think, is more valuable than any knowledge you can be taught.

SW: Hell yeah. Hell yeah.

KP: I've learned that sharing my pain has been more beneficial than holding it in.

SW: Nice. What's the name of your book? 

KP: “Grief and Self-care”

SW: Wow, when did you write that?

KP: Actually, through my quarantine session back in April,  I finally actually had time to sit down and focus enough to really bust it out and  get it out there. I think it got published on May 5th, I believe.

SW: That's amazing.

KP: Yeah, thank you.

SW: Yeah, because, man, to sit down and just do it is so obviously necessary, but so hard.

KP: Oh it was insanely difficult. It was like 12, 14 hour days where I was just glued to my computer and I was just going and going. Beacause I knew if I stopped, that was it. So I just had to push through it and keep going.

SW: Do you feel good about it?

KP: Yeah, I do. I've got a lot of positive feedback about it. It's nothing like extensive. It's a really short book, but it's quick and to the point and it's real. The feedback because of that has been really helpful and it's been really beneficial.

SW: That's fantastic.

KP: Thank you.

SW: So what I was saying, I think you partially already answered it, but I'm always wondering, anybody who comes onto this podcast and shares openly and candidly about their suicide attempt, why they're comfortable, you're definitely in the minority of people who would be okay with that. So I'm wondering why.

KP: It really boils down to what I mentioned earlier with helping other people, because I know for me, I didn't think anybody else in the world felt like I did. And that was a struggle. I felt more isolated and alone than ever before. And so when I started talking about it and people were like,  Oh wait, you go through that too? It makes it almost a little bit easier to deal with. Yeah. In a way for me, it's therapeutic.

SW: Yeah, I always say this podcast for me is therapeutic. It's sort of like a selfish project and hopefully I can be a little selfless at the same time, you know? So I want to ask about how people responded to your attempt, but first I want to hear about your attempt. So share whatever you're comfortable sharing around that, what led up to it or the attempt itself.

SW: So it was back in 2014 my father was diagnosed with stage 4 cancer and we were told he had six months to a year and he had passed away six weeks later and he and I were inseparable to say the least and I did not handle his death well at all. The way my family is, you know, we share our emotions, but we're not very like, you know, let's all sit together, cry it out, like stuff like that. It's just not how it's been, which is fine.  but I felt very isolated in my grief and I had no idea how to handle it. And I started kind of trying to find answers and there was nothing I could find. And the depression just got worse and worse and  I decided that I was just going to take a large amount of pills and find my way out. And it was more or less kind of, it wasn't that I wanted to die, it was the fact that I wanted the pain to end. And I wanted to see my dad. I just wanted to be with my dad. And I ended up waking up the next day. I attempted another time before my manager at my job had kind of put two and two together and kind of forced me into getting help.

SW: So that was your second attempt?

KP: The main, the first part was my first time. And then, like the feelings kind of just kind of came back real fast. And I was like, oh, let's try this again. Clearly it was unsuccessful and you know, part of me obviously wanted to get help because I didn't want to feel like that. I just wanted to find a way for the pain to end.

SW: Sure. And that was in 2015? Sorry if I missed that. 

KP: 2014. 

SW: Sounds like a rough year.

KP: That, to say the least, was a very very rough year.

SW: Somewhat limited by words, but yeah, I'm sure it was worse than just rough. Do you think if your dad hadn't gotten sick that your path would have been different and that you would not have tried? Was it really linked to that?

KP: It was really linked to it. I had definitely battled some on and off depression, but very mild.  Grief is no stranger to my family, unfortunately. I lost my cousin at a very young age and my uncle. So I've always kind of had those lingering depressive states that would come in and go out.  But with my father, it was a smack in the face. And I definitely think that that was the main reason I had no signs of suicidal ideation, nothing like that. And that was part of the reason why I struggled so hard because I was like, where did this come from? Like I'd never felt it this deeply, this, this pain. And so being able to kind of differentiate realizing that I was attached to my dad I think in the end kind of helped me too.

SW: Yeah. Sounds like a cool dude.

KP: He was, definitely was.

SW: When you say that you were isolated in your grief, there was something about that that was very powerful. And I do know that we're limited by words, right? I'm not much of a poet, so I can't express things sometimes, which is part of our, I think, universal struggle, right? Like, I feel this, but I can't… But I'm curious, when you say isolated in your grief, what does that feel like? What does that feel like to be isolated in grief?

KP: Yeah, the best way for me to put it, think, would be, you know, picture yourself in a room with no windows, no doors, no way to get in and out. And you're the only person in there. There's no way of getting help. There's no way of letting anybody in. And there's no way of getting out. Like, I just, felt so insanely trapped around this grief that at one point or another, I didn't think I would ever get out of it. And I definitely didn't think anybody else in my family or even my friends were able to feel remotely how I did. I unfortunately witnessed my best friend lose his father a year to the day before my father. And he responded to that in a completely opposite way that I did. I think a lot of that ended up kind of, in a way, making me feel like I was grieving wrong. And that made me feel even more isolated because I was like, my best friend in the whole world went through the exact same thing. But he handled it the polar opposite way that I did. I was like, I feel really alone in this right now.

SW: Yeah. Do you think in hindsight that it was the same thing you were going through?  Or like, because I know you've spent a lot of time around this. You wrote a book. You know, I think and I do really I want to hear your thoughts like the events can be somewhat similar. We can lose a parent even in the same way at a similar age. For me, it feels like grief is a sort of unique experience for each of us. What are your thoughts on that?

KP: Absolutely.  If there's anything that I've learned it, you know, and my best friend and I both losing our fathers, same age, literally our birthdays are a week apart. Like you couldn't be any more similar. He lost his father to cancer in almost the exact same form. But at the end of the day, each individual person has their own personality and their own traits. So how they respond to something is completely different. His family was very close-knit. They are a hardcore Italian family, very big on relationships within the family. And I came from an Irish family that tended to result to alcohol at times. And it is different. And if there's anything that's been eye-opening about my father's loss is nobody will ever ever feel the same way you did with your specific grief. Everybody's relationship with anybody that they lose is going to be different than even their own siblings. It's just how it is. Everybody's makeup is different.

SW: And that's so tricky because we want not to be alone in our grief. But part of it is that it is yours and only yours. So I'm happy we have books like yours out there now. How long were you in that feeling of real isolation and grief?

SW: So my father had passed away on April 30th. And it was kind of a couple days before he had died, I had started to kind of come to terms with the fact that he was sick and that my life was going to change. And it just kind of got ripped out from underneath me. So I would really say that a couple of days before his death to about August was real hard, isolated, difficult thoughts. And then I ended up going into an outpatient program that I was in for a couple of months for my attempts and I had like a pretty bad alcohol habit at the time too. 

SW: Was that before, before also or did that ramp up in that?

KP: Oh it ramped up because of the death. I didn't know how to cope with it. So I just decided to go out drinking every night after work.  But I would definitely say it was a good, hard few months.  But once I was in my program, I had learned journaling and the importance of it. And I was more or less forced into having to start journaling as a part of my treatment plan. And that changed a lot for me that really pulled me out because I was able to get those scary difficult thoughts out of my head and onto paper.

SW: That's really interesting. I've talked to a good number of people about this and usually they find their way out any number of ways. And often it is, I finally found the right medication or any other number of things. Journaling isn't usually something I hear. And so that's the first thing you said. I’m like, huh, wow. Something most people can do and it's readily available and  for you it was a game changer it sounds like.

SW: It was and you know lot of people think like you know if I'm journaling I gotta do it every day I gotta commit to it I gotta you know set time aside and the reality of it is is it could be as simple as just grabbing you know a scrap piece of paper and writing down like hey I really missed my dad today it was triggered because I saw you know at the park a father and daughter playing ball. And there you go. You get it out of your head and it's on the paper and you're not focusing on that specific thought anymore. I started to realize, because at first I was skeptical. I was like, I'm going to write down my thoughts and it's going to work. And I, through the whole treatment plan, I filled up an entire journal and I went back and I re-read it fairly recently when I was writing my book and it was… incredibly therapeutic to reread what I had written because I truly it's not that I had forgotten but it wasn't a present thought in my mind anymore. I was writing some really hard stuff.

SW: Yeah. Do you think there's also if people don't like writing, and most people not everyone has a smartphone? Do you think that it would be helpful for people to just snag a quick audio? That's more my style. Guess that's why I have a podcast and you have a book.

KP:  Absolutely, it makes much sense.

SW: Yeah. What is it like to, like you said you didn't want to die. You wanted the pain to end, right? Correct. What's it like being in a space where you want the pain to end so badly that you attempt suicide and then you wake up and you are alive?

KP: I was incredibly relieved. You know, when I had finally sat down and taken the pills, I immediately regretted it. I was like, I don't want to leave my mom. My mom just lost the love of her life. Like, what am I doing? This is selfish. I was like, I'm not the only one hurting. And so at that point I was like, well, it's...pretty much is too late. I'm not really one for, you know, trying to make myself sick and get up. I made the decision. I went through with it. And when I woke up in the morning, I was crying happy tears because almost in a way I felt like my dad was like, look, it's not your time kid. You needed this to wake up. think like kind of be like, don't be so hard on yourself in a sense. Because if there's anything, I'm probably the hardest person on themselves that you can be. Somebody could come at me and think that they're being hard on me, but I guarantee you I've thought worse about myself. And waking up and crying and realizing that I was alive really showed myself a lot, that like I do have this will to live, we just got to figure out a healthy way to get the pain to go away and not even go away because it never will in relation to grief, but you learn to live with it on a new level.

SW: Right. It's one of the interesting things that I'm learning as I do this podcast and I talk to more people, you, and if I'm not getting this right, please let me know, you said this is selfish. Other people, some of them have said suicide is not a selfish act. And so I don't think either is right or wrong. Just, just different points of view. find it. Some people say, no I really did want to die. Other people, like you said, I wanted the pain to end, I didn't want to die. So it's not really a question, it's more of an observation of, and a reminder for me, everybody's different. There's not one sentence that's gonna cover all suicide attempt survivors. It just doesn't work that way.

KP: Absolutely, It doesn't. I, you know, it ties back into what we said earlier about everybody grieving differently. You know, the human brain is so, so incredible. Not anybody else has the same brain that you do. And none of us will ever think the same exact way and will never come to a solution the same way. The reason I decided to attempt suicide and the reason somebody else did are two totally different reasons.

SW: When you were in that pain, really that like heightened heightened pain, you said that you were trying to find answers. What were some of those things that you were trying to find that either didn't work or maybe didn't work the way you wanted them to?

KP:  I was trying to figure out why. Long story short, we all experience grief. It's inevitable. In life, in one way shape form or another, we end up loving either a person or a thing. And when you lose it, you experience grief. And I was trying to figure out if every single person experiences it, it's inevitable. How in the world, do we not know how to handle it? Why isn't learning how to grieve or not even learning how to grieve, but preparing for the basis of grief, something that we're taught as a kid and trying to figure out those answers was not easy.

SW: Why do you think that most of us don't learn about grief if we all deal with it? Like we all learned math, not everybody, but most, right? Math, we learned math. You learned math, I learned math. Learn not to cross the street when cars are coming. Learn to say thank you and please. Didn't learn about grief.

KP: Yeah, and yeah, that's a question that I'm still learning to answer. I don't know why. And I think the part of it, I think a big part of it is the fact that it makes people feel uncomfortable. We as a human race hate feeling uncomfortable. We don't like dealing with pain or loss and it's a negative thing for the most part, know, losing somebody isn't a positive thing. So, you know, it's looked down upon if you bring up a negative topic, you know, why are you being a Debbie Downer? Why are you bringing this up? It's sad. Like we don't want to be sad. But the reality is, it's a reality for everybody. You know, it's inevitable. We're going to go through it and you could be lucky and not ever have to go through it extensively like I have, but chances are you will. And if people knew how to be prepared for it, then it could be not easier, but a lot less of a scary road to go down.

SW: Right. It reminds me in part of some of the stuff that we've done or learned… when I was getting trained to be a crisis counselor for the crisis text hotline. I remember some of it was challenging, but for the most part, I remember thinking, how do people not know this? Like, how did we not learn that when someone says, I'm thinking about ending my life, we didn't learn just to sit with that, for example. Or ask a question around that, what's going on? As opposed to, you know, the laundry list of things that people often do that don't make things better and often make things worse. How do we not learn that?

KP: Yes. Exactly. We should know the basis of how to handle situations like these. And I was saying the same thing. I was looking at my girlfriend while I was going through the training and I was like, am I just progressive? Like, I just know this because I went through the loss of my father? Or is this really not as common sense as I thought it was?

SW: Right. And just to be clear, I picked up some stuff that was really helpful.

KP: Yeah, I, it's a question I find myself trying to like elaborate on every day a little bit more like how is it that people have no idea how to handle a loss or handle a suicidal person? You know, just sit with them. You don't have to fix it.

SW: Right. I even extend that to loss, suicide, how about anybody in any kind of despair or distress?

KP: Yep, absolutely. A stressful day at work can be alleviated so much by just like a coworker coming up like, hey, what's going on? You seem like you're having an off day you know, X, Y, and Z happened in my meeting today and it's just really taking over my thoughts. Well, okay, let's try and do this.

SW: 100%.

KP: Or just talk about it. Sometimes that's all you need is just somebody to listen.

SW: If more people did that more often, you would see things like the suicide rate go down. It may not be dramatic, but you would because those things add up, right? One isolated incident at your work where someone's not listening. Okay, but those add up. Day after day, week after week. And then you have nobody you feel like you can talk to who's going to actually listen. And then what? The only other question I have specifically around your attempt is did you say goodbye to people?

KP: In my own way, I did because I didn't want anybody to try and stop me. So I wasn't necessarily a, Hey thanks for all the memories. I'll see you when I see you. It was more of a heartfelt conversation. That was more like, you know, I may not have told you that I appreciate everything you've done for me, but you know, I do. And, know just more of a heartfelt conversation that I worked into a normal day versus writing a note or being like, hey, you know, I'm planning on killing myself and I want you to know I love you.

SW: Do you think there is anything anybody could have done or said that would have changed your mind?

KP: Knowing how stubborn of a person I am, no.  After the fact, I know when I woke up in the weeks after, I'd like to think that, you know, somebody could have been like, hey think of your mom. But I know myself and unless I see it or think it myself, it's not going to change the thought. It's not going to change the action.

SW: Right. So if somebody were to come to you and say something similar, like you said to them…

KP: I would see some red flags. 

SW: Right, like is your red flag a little bit different than it was a few years ago?

KP: Yeah, over the past year or so I have started learning things that helped me become more observant. And as a result, I am a highly observant person that, you know, has its benefits and it's, you know, downfalls too. But I definitely pick up the red flags. And if I see a red flag, I don't necessarily point it out, but I try to just kind of dig a little deeper without making it obvious. Or, you know, instead of being like, hey, I'm going to go, I'm going to stay for an extra hour.

SW: That's amazing. Yeah, stuff like that, I think makes such a difference. You may not ever know it. You may not ever get like an email saying, yep, that worked and you saved their life.

KP: I agree. Yeah, I find with the crisis text line, when we get the feedback from the texters, it's incredible.  But when you have that really tough conversation and you don't know how it's going to turn out and you know that you might not ever find out, it's hard.

SW: Yeah. What's the text again? I want to remind people.

KP: 741-741 and then you can text really any keyword. Yeah, because I know I've seen on the other side of the crisis council, I've seen a lot of random things come through, but I know that you can text ‘share’ or ‘home’ and it'll connect you right through.

SW: Yeah, I don't think it matters. Yeah. So for anyone listening, Kathleen and I and many others are crisis counselors, volunteer crisis counselors at the crisis text hotline. It's really an interesting service because it is as the name suggests text. So it tends to, it's for absolutely anybody. I think it's in several countries. I'm not sure.  it tends to attract, attract is not the best word, but younger people because it's text. But I think texting is very interesting. One thing it allows that a phone call doesn't,  it's more challenging, in that a phone call is built in time and space as opposed to responding quickly. There's a moment of pause.

KP: Yeah, you can actually think and process what they're saying before giving an answer.

SW: 741-741. If anyone's listening and is in that space and that's something that they find, that might be beneficial. What's something about that experience that you've learned that you think, huh, wow okay, I've got to get better at that or I didn't realize I needed to get better at that or something around there.

KP: I’ve definitely become a lot more not open minded because I already am a pretty open minded person but like it's interesting seeing how people handle their crises because you know I know how I handle it and I know how my friends and family do but you don't think somebody would react to an event in a certain way and it really makes you think about, okay, you know, if this person responds like this, what is something that we could do to prevent that, you know, just in general?  Like maybe there's a better way of speaking and responding to people. And I think at the end of the day, a lot, not a lot of things would be avoided, but I think a lot of things  could be less misinterpreted.

SW: Yes.

KP: I think we just naturally think everybody thinks the way we do.

SW: There's one question that I find in my life I wish more people used and I wish I used it more. It's ‘what do you mean?’ Like to make the, not make the assumption that for example, if you say I'm feeling really depressed. Now, maybe if I've known you for a long time, I really do have a sense of what that means, but I don't just think that's never really a bad question. I want to be clear on what you're saying, as much as you can share more about it and explain it or describe it or whatever. What do you mean?

KP: And the good point too that I've learned through the crisis  center is we're not supposed to ask why. And I know that I always, before I started volunteering, would resort to, well, why do you think that? Or why this? And it's kind of forced me to remove why out of my responses and approach it differently and I think it's a really great way. ‘Why’ is accusatory. It makes you feel like the way you're feeling isn't correct.

SW: Certainly it can be, yeah. Yeah. I'm guilty of doing that sometimes. I'd like to hope that, or I hope that in certain situations, I'm asking it in a sort of gentle way, non accusatory, but maybe I am, maybe I'm wrong. That's sure. Not on the crisis text outline I'm talking about in life. Yeah. Sometimes it feels like, okay, this maybe, maybe this, that's an okay question.

KP: Yeah, because like a good example that I've noticed instead of saying why did you think that and change it to well, how did you get to that thought? Like how did you get that conclusion? Right and so much more open and welcoming ‘Why are you doing that?’

SW: For sure. I love that. I love that. What do you think is… I know that you can only talk about suicide from your experience, right? But you're an expert on your own life and that's part of it. Is there a one or perhaps more than one, myth around suicide or suicide attempt survivors that you've noticed?

KP: It's definitely and I know that I got told this or asked this is that ‘Oh you're just doing it for attention.’ That statement makes me so angry. Because sure, I'm sure that there have been times and instances with people that have resorted to that in a non-genuine way. And they needed the attention and they thought ‘Okay, this extreme will get me there.’ But it's not a common instance, I feel, you know, just because you know, one person that did that, it's not everybody, you know, chances are if somebody's talking about it, like, you know, I think I'm having suicidal thoughts. It's not them looking for attention. It's them asking for help. And they don't know how to. And I think that's really crucial for people to understand is that a lot of the time people don't know how to ask for help because we as a society have no idea how to handle grief, loss, depression. So we don't know how to help and we don't know how to ask for that help.

SW: Yeah, I think there's a lot of other ways people could try to get attention short of attempting suicide, if that's legitimately the goal. The other thing that sort of popped into my head is, if you feel somebody is going to those extremes to get attention, give them some attention. I mean, I don't again, I don't know if that's what you're saying. I said I tend to insert myself in these things sometimes. ‘Well, maybe, maybe you should just give them some damn attention. Maybe I mean, come on, man. Like,  I mean, it's like a human need.’ I just want attention. Are you paying any attention to them? Just just throwing it out there.

KP: Maybe, just give it to ‘em. Like, communication is a rough spot for society. You know, we struggle with it so immensely.

SW: We're looking for hacks and easy fixes like and it's just, man…

KP: If life was meant to be easy, it would be.

SW: Correct. When you woke up and you were relieved, right? You said you were like, okay, here I am. I'm glad it didn't happen. I'm glad I'm still alive. I am curious how other people in your life responded.

KP: My manager that I credit with a very large portion of saving my life was more worried than anything. Definitely didn't make me feel like I was stupid or attention seeking. Just truly genuine like, I'm worried about you. I don't know how to help, but let's figure it out. My family was more on the horrified side, scared and confused side. We have never in my family dealt with suicidal thoughts publicly. We've never had anybody in our family commit suicide, thankfully. And I remember vividly because my heart sank. I got a phone call. I was out with one of my friends and my mom's like, you need to come home right now. And it was like one o'clock in the afternoon. I'm like, is everything okay? She's like, no, you need to come home right now. I was like, all right. And I walked through the door and she was like, so I heard through the grapevine you have suicidal thoughts and that you've actually attempted. And I was like, well, this isn't exactly how I wanted you to know.

SW: So your family didn't know even after you were hospitalized?

KP: They knew about a week before I went into the program. So I was planning on telling my mother, but I didn't want to tell her until I had a game plan. And, you know, my thought process behind that was basically I didn't want to cause my mom any more worry or hurt. You know, she's still grieving because this was just a few months after my dad died. And I didn't want to go to her and have her be so scared and worried and think, you know, I'm not going to wake up tomorrow. So I was like, well, I truly, of course, it's a little late now, but I really was going to tell you. But I have a program that I'm getting checked into. I have, you know, friends that have been working with me and helping me. And she at first was just very hurt in a way because she was like, well, why didn't you come talk to me? And at the end of the day, it was just, I didn't want to cause my mom anymore hurt. Yeah. I was trying to protect my mom.

SW: Do you have any brothers or sisters?

KP: I have an older brother.

SW: Yeah, that must have been hard on everybody.

KP: It was, and you know, I think it was about six months after I got out of my program, I had gone down to have a vacation with my family and I saw my cousins and their kids for the first time since everything. And she, like my cousin, Katie, looked at me and she was like, are you an idiot? She was like ‘you can't leave your family.’ She's like, ‘my two boys love you. What would they do if I had to go up to them and say, you know, cousin Katie isn't going to be coming around anymore.’ And I was like, you're right. And she was like, I'm angry. She's like, I'm not angry at you. I was like, looking back on it, I'm angry at myself for letting myself get there. But you live and you learn.

SW: : You live and you learn. Any other things that stand out of people, the words that they said that were either harmful or the opposite, you know that were really helpful?

KP: My aunt came up to me and it actually brought me a lot closer with my family because I had no idea that one of my aunts was the exact same age as I when her father died. And I was taken aback. And we had shared, it was a couple hour long conversation about, you know, her loss of her father and, you know, not necessarily comparing it, but comparing it more or less. And she was like, the strength that you have to overcome your thoughts is incredible. That one statement has stuck with me for life and it will.

SW: Yep. Maybe for me, the most misunderstood thing is that how anybody who listens to the podcast regularly, I think sometimes they're thinking Sean says the same thing every podcast because I'm so like, that's the thing. People are really trying so hard, the strength it takes to stay alive for some people.

KP: Yeah.

SW: And we don't measure that. We don't do a great job of that. The metrics we use for,  are you in a healthy relationship? Are you earning some money? Do you have a job? Are understandable, but we both know people are, they're trying hard.

KP: Yeah, and no one ever knows anybody else's battle and there's so much truth. Like it's said so much, but like the truth behind that statement, you never know what anybody else is dealing with because we as a society are told to put on a brave face and make it through the day. And you deal with your problems behind closed doors. If we didn't deal with our problems behind closed doors, I feel like a lot of things would be a lot different.

SW: I agree. I'm never able to find out who's listening to this. Though more and more people are listening, which I'm really, I'm happy about that. I'm, it feels good. I imagine there's some people who have tried. There's some people that maybe are thinking about it. And maybe there's some people who are in someone's life who has tried or is thinking about it and is in some sort of, you know, real pain. What would you say to the people? This is a two parter. What would you say to the people who are in a position to support others in their life who may be in that kind of pain?

KP: Definitely just don't feel like you have to do something. You, just being there. It can literally save somebody's life by checking in with them. Its something I say all the time to my friends and it's that we're incredibly busy. But if you just take five seconds to shoot a text, say, hey, how's your day? Thinking of you. That can make or break somebody's final decision of wanting to end their life. It's reminding them that, hey, somebody does care about me. It's not just all in my head. 

SW: For the people out there who are ideating, contemplating, and there's a lot.

KP: No, there is, especially in today's society.

SW: A lot, right? And then I don't have numbers, but probably even ramped up more in the last three, four or five months. Either way. What might you say to them?

KP: So I touch upon it briefly in my book and I came up with this saying or not really a saying but a phrase a few years ago that ‘your moment is coming.’ 

SW: I like that.

KP:  I am originally from Boston. I moved to Pittsburgh a year after my dad had died to kind of start over. And when my when I was going through the grit of it, I

didn't think my life was ever going to get any better. I was like, this is it. This is how it's going to be. I'm going to be miserable forever. And there's no hopes and dreams coming true. I was in the rut of it. And here I am six years later, a published author in grad school, getting my master's. I have a nonprofit. And I never ever thought any of this was remotely possible when I was in that head space. Right. So your moment is coming.

SW: I love that. Memorable, real, the grit of it. Hey, what's your… let's go back for one second. Again, the name of your book. And now I want to know about your nonprofit and what you're studying.

KP:  My book is “Grief and Self-Care” and my nonprofit is Safe Haven. It's a suicide and prevention awareness foundation for the LGBT community, for people of the LGBT community to come to if they're struggling with coming out or gender identity or anything.

SW: Right, okay. We'll definitely put a link to that in the show notes. Any online sort of space where people can learn more about that. What's your master's in?

KP: My master's is in clinical mental health counseling and then my end goal is to be a grief counselor.

SW: That's amazing. Yeah, grief. It seems like you've got some really great goals, specific goals. You're working towards your goals. But I also ask people, might you try again?

KP: I definitely have the occasional thought that's like, if you just ended it, you wouldn't have to deal with the hard stuff anymore. But then now, where I am in life now, I have a beautiful niece and nephew, and they keep me alive at the end of the day. I couldn't abandon them no matter how hard it got.

SW:  Nice. They love their Aunt Katie, right?

KP: Crazy Auntie Katie.

SW: Crazy, that's awesome. Yeah, something about kids, about little kids.

KP: Yeah, you can't do it to little kids. It's not fair. They don't understand.

SW: Has the lockdown pandemic made things harder for you?

KP: Yeah, it's definitely the change. I rely a lot on routine. Having my routine explode in my face has definitely been a challenge. But if there's anything that I've learned from this whole process over the last six years is that you learn, you grow, you change and adapt. And that's just kind of how I roll.

SW: Good. Your moment is coming. Your moment is coming. What do you do for fun?

KP: Definitely golf. Love, love golf. And I love just like going out and adventuring, I like being outside, whether it's going for hikes or finding waterfalls, things like that. I just love being outside.

SW: Nice. Is there  anything else that you would like to share that I didn't bring up?

KP: No, I think that, you know, we've really touched upon all the important stuff.

SW: Great, yeah. I really appreciate you taking the time and being so… you did say earlier that you're very open about it and you are.

KP: Thank you, appreciate it. I'm glad that we got to do this.

SW: Yeah, no, thank you for reaching out. And if you know others, let me know. I wish that the podcast couldn't exist.

KP: I agree.

SW: It's probably going to need to exist. So if there are people out there and they think it's, if it would be helpful or cathartic for them to share, or they feel like they can help others in any way.

KP: Alright, sounds great Sean.

SW: Alright Katie, thank you once again and I hope things continue to go well for you. As always, thanks so much for listening. Again, if you're a Suicide Attempt survivor and you'd like to talk, you can email us at hello@suicidenoted.com  And if you'd like to support us, let people know about it. You can rate the podcast, review it, subscribe to it. It really does help us get the word out there and let these stories be heard. Until we connect again, stay strong or do the best you can. And I'll talk to you soon.