August 17, 2020 

SW = Sean Wellington, JN = Jamie in New York

JN: Until you get to that point, you just can't understand it. And you can't, it's not about being a coward or being selfish. You're just in so much pain that you want it to end and you think that's the only way to end the pain.

SW: Hey there, my name is Sean and this is Suicide Noted. On this podcast, I talk with suicide attempt survivors so that we can hear their stories. Every year around the world, millions of people try to take their own lives and we do not talk much about it. And when we do talk about it, most of us are not very good at it. And that includes me. One of my goals with this podcast is to not only have conversations with attempt survivors, but hopefully better conversations. Now we are talking about suicide. This may not be a good fit for everyone. Please take that into account before you listen, but I do hope you listen because there is so much to learn. We have been launched for less than a month and every day we get more and more people listening to this podcast from more and more places. Places like Brazil and Hungary and Latvia and Israel. I'm really glad these stories are getting out there. Now if you like this podcast, help us out. Subscribe to it, rate it, review it. I don't know exactly why or how this works but when you do that, more and more people can find it. More and more people from more and more places can hear these stories because these stories matter. They really matter. Now if you are a suicide attempt survivor or you know somebody who is and you'd like to share your story with us you can email us at hello@suicidenoted.com . Today I'm talking with Jamie. Jamie lives in New York and he is a suicide attempt survivor. Hey Jamie, how are you?

JN: I'm well, how are you Sean?

SW: Doing pretty well. Thanks for joining me and being cool with talking about stuff that people don't always talk about.

JN: Well yeah, I talk about it.

SW: My question that I asked most people when I start talking to them about this is that most people who have tried to end their lives would not hop on a podcast and talk to people openly about it and you're not that way. I don't think so. Why?

JN: Why? Because I'm a writer and...I was, I certainly had shame about having attempted suicide  and was not, would not have been comfortable. I was not comfortable with people knowing that except those people who knew it anyway or were close to me. And I guess, let's see. But when I wrote, I wrote a memoir called “Dangerous When Wet: a memoir of booze sex and my mother”. And it was about my alcoholism and getting sober, my relationship with my mother and  how that was kind of alcoholic as well. And I could not tell that story without talking about my suicide attempt. Well, I have two, but I'll get to that in a minute. So when I chose to write that story, I made the choice to out myself as a suicide attempt survivor because my suicide attempt in 2006 when I took an overdose of sleeping pills  was my alcoholic bottom. I got into rehab after that and then started to get sober.  So that made me come out about that. And then I realized that I had a lot to say about suicide. I was more focused on my alcoholism. And that's what the book really focuses on that. And then I've talked a lot about that.  And then a year later, after the book came out, I felt like a little bit of a fraud because I had never told anybody,  not my partner of 20 plus years, not my  best friends, not my family, not my AA buddies or my sober buddies rather,  not my analysts that I'd been seeing since I'd come back from rehab that I had attempted suicide before that, 2006 when 11 years prior.  And I had impulsively taken an overdose of sleeping pills again while drunk,  but I woke up the next morning and didn't tell a living soul. And,  and I realized, and it was like, well, why do I need to tell anybody about that one? You know, they already know about the other one and they know I'm so, and, after I got sober, you know, I built rebuilt a whole new life for myself, became a writer, became a performer, started my own business. And, but I, kinda, I felt like I had to come out about that first one because I felt like I was like a new house. I felt like a new house that was built on an old foundation, still riddled with termites. And, you know, until I owned that story and that's, I didn't necessarily have to tell the world about it, but I had to at least admit it to another person.  But at that point I had been public about about, that side of myself, having written the book and been out there talking about it and all the issues there that, that I did come out publicly about. And I wrote about it in the New York times. I got a lot of great response and a lot of  people related to it, either they were also suicide attempt survivors or they knew people who were and it helped them understand suicidal ideation and behavior and the connection between alcoholism, substance abuse and depression.

SW: Sure. the first attempt was in 06.

JN: No, the second attempt was in 06. 

SW: I'm sorry, what was the first one?

JN: The first one was 11 years before that. that would be, um, what's that?  95 if my math is correct.

SW: 95-96 yeah. Can you talk about that one? Can you share with us a little bit about what happened? How did that sort of come to be? I know it's a large question.

JN: Yeah, you know, at that time I was, uh, how old was I? 27 or so. And, um, and I was drinking alcoholically, but I wasn't, um, I, I didn't know about, I didn't think I needed to get sober. I wasn't thinking that I was an alcoholic. I mean, I probably thought that I had a problem with drinking, but it wasn't, um, but I was nowhere near getting sober and, couldn't see that my depression and my kind of general malaise and unhappiness and dissatisfaction with life had anything, you know, was being brought on by the drinking. And so that's where I was at the time. and  I wasn't, I had wanted to write and perform and kind of, and I didn't pursue it.  Didn't pursue it. I mean, I did a little bit kind of half-heartedly and then I, and then I just, got serious about my career in publishing, which I was doing well in. And, I can't tell you how much suicidal ideation I had before that attempt leading up to it. I was a book publicist and I  had organized this wonderful,  glamorous party for a book I was working on and all the, you know,  glitterate from the theater and fashion world was there. And rather than just being happy that I was a part of it and that I had organized it, just, my...And I was drinking at the party and my self-esteem sunk this low, very low. And I thought, you know, I'll never be as good as these people. I'll never be anything. I'll never be glamorous. never be on my, you know, I'll just, I'm just the hired help, blah, blah, blah. And I just went in this downward spiral, which I realized now drinking can take me to, often. And, you know, because we have to remember that alcohol is a depressant. A lot of people forget that you know, because everyone thinks, it's going to bring me up. It's going to make the party fun. It's going to make me happy. But if you, know, if you keep on, brings you way down. Did me anyway. And I went home that night and I just thought I was done. And to tell you the truth, I don't remember that much about it because it was a long time ago. I was drunk when I did it. Not so, you know, not obliterated, but I also just, I wiped it out and didn't tell anybody about it for so long and didn't talk about it and didn't think about it. And every time the memory popped up I would delete it, kind of like those annoying Facebook reminders. And I was home and I had, I remembered I drank some more when I got home and I remembered some painkillers I had in the medicine cabinet suffered from a sprained ankle, which I got while I was drunk.  And I impulsively took them. I didn't, don't think I think thought a lot about it. I just impulsively took it and took them and went to bed. And I woke up the next morning, hung over from the booze and the pills and kind of in shell shock that I had done. And went to work and got up and started moving, but it felt like I was moving underwater from the, I think the effect of the pills and also just the shock of what I had done. And then I was just like, I told nobody. And that's why I think it's so important for suicide attempt survivors to tell someone after to own it.

Um, because those who've attempted suicide are in a higher risk group to do it again. Um, and by not, you know, owning your story and telling your story, your story could own you in the end. And, and I wonder if I had told, if I admitted it to anybody, I, if I would have gotten help sooner, taking a harder look at my alcoholism, my drinking and gotten sober sooner, who knows, you know, and maybe I wouldn't have, maybe I wouldn't have attempted that you know, that second time.

SW: So you told no one? Not one human being on earth knew about it.

JN: Exactly. Not until 2016. To put this in perspective, in 2006, my drinking got, by then, you know, I kept drinking, my drinking got much worse. I got fired from a job, which devastated me because I'd always done well in life and, you know, straight A, best little boy in the world kind of thing. And then that time, leading up to the 2006 one, I remember in the last few months of my drinking that I was, I was so severely depressed and was thinking about it. Suicide was the last thought when I passed out at night and the first when I came to in the morning. I mean, that there was, I mean, I thought about it constantly then, which I don't think I did was doing that first time. But at that time, it was more premeditated. I mean, it was it was still an impulsive moment, but I had been thinking about it for months. And then one morning, I had overslept for work and given my boss a lame excuse. And she wrote back, she emailed me again. And then I freaked out and I thought, you know, I just can't keep doing this anymore. I'm, you know, I'm done, I'm done. And I took the bottle of sleeping pills and,  the first one I would consider manslaughter. This one is more, a little premeditated. So anyway, but that was my bottom that got me sober. And then as I said, at the beginning of this, when I, and then I started writing the memoir, you know, and I couldn't, obviously I couldn't tell the story of my alcoholism without talking about that suicide attempt. And I don't think I even seriously considered whether or not I should include that first suicide attempt because I still wasn't thinking about it much. Because I told no one and was always pushing. It was never, I pushed it out of my mind. I was still in denial about that first time and still kind of thought,  that first time, I don't know if I meant it. You know, did I really think a few painkillers was going to do it, blah, blah, blah. So it doesn't count that kind of thing.  And then after the book came out, a year went by and I thought, you know, I feel a little bit like a fraud, you know, that I, and so that's when I decided to come out about that first attempt. Yeah. 

SW: So you shared both. Do think he really wanted to die?

JN: I think so, yes. I was glad both times that I didn't. That first time I can tell you,  I just thought that I remember kind of waking up in a stupor and like, oh, thank God, you know, I don't know if I said thank God that didn't work.Iit was kind of like, whoa, did I really do that? Keep moving and don't tell anyone. But I know that when I woke up, I did not regret waking up. The second time my partner found me, Michael, and you know, he got me to the hospital. I came to in an emergency room. I can't say at that moment, I thought, thank God I'm alive. But I didn't regret that I was alive.  But I mean, yeah, I think it definitely that second one, I wanted to die.

SW: It must be a some kind of feeling to want to die and to and wake up. And what that must be like. And you were in a hospital, which is a whole other world.

JN: Yeah, what people I think don't realize and this may be jumping the gun on one of your questions is, and I felt this way, you know, when people talk about suicide being a cowardly act or a very selfish act, you know, because it hurts so many people, you can't really, and I used to, and I agreed with some of those  opinions before I got to that point. And I remember I had, there was when I was my first awareness of alcoholism and suicide was when I was around five years old. There was this friend of my mother's Genevieve. And I remember visiting her and she always had a drink at the end of her hand. I mean, I didn't necessarily know it was an alcoholic drink, but I'm pretty sure it was now like gin or something. And then we stopped seeing her. And at one point I asked my mother, was like, what, you why don't we go, why don't we see Genevieve anymore? And she said, because she and my mother could be very forthright even when I was a five year old. She said because she killed herself  with a gun! And she said she was an alcoholic, a bad alcoholic. And right there, there was my future - alcoholism and suicide And I remember my mother saying I don't understand how she could do something like that you know when she had a family and children and all this. And then years later I had a friend,  an author that I was working with and we became friends and I just adored him and he  disappeared for a while and then when he reappeared he told me that he had tried to kill himself and he'd gone to the loony bin or the nut house as he called it, I mean these are his words. And I said, I'm so glad that, know, and blah, blah, that I'm so glad you're alive and you're so smart and wonderful, you know, and all this. And I was, I was still perplexed. I couldn't understand how anyone could do that. But I remember, you know, he, he felt like he was done. He said, you know, I just felt like I was done. Like I had, you know,  done everything I was going to achieve and the things that I wanted to take off didn't. He thought he was done. And then, I don't know how much longer, a year later, he did it again, he attempted again and he succeeded. And I was still, you know, still kind of in the opinion of how could anyone do that? You know, how could he not know that he was loved and that he was, you know, so talented and all this. And until you get to that point, you just can't understand it. And you can't, it's not about being a coward or being selfish. You're just in so much pain that you want it to end and you think that's the only way to end the pain. Of course, we know that term, suicide, is a final solution to a temporary problem.

SW: It's temporary, but it can feel like a hell of a long time. Yeah, so you don't think it's selfish or cowardly?

JN: You may still think it's selfish or cowardly. That's not the point. The point is you can't understand the level of depression and hopelessness  that drives a person to get to that point. And I didn't really understand that either until I got there myself.

SW: Yeah.

JN: And when you get, you know, and I had leading up to about the selfish and cowardly bit,  leading up to that  attempt in 2006, when I was in such an alcoholic depression and despair and drinking almost around the clock and thinking about suicide all the time, I had a lot of guilt about it. And I thought, well, no, I can't do that to my partner, Michael and my parents, and it would devastate them and, and all that. that would for a while, keep me from doing it. But then when you get to the point, all that, I blocked all of them out and it didn't matter anymore. And also as I'm convinced the world's a better place without me. And when you drink and drug, the ultimate goal is oblivion  and suicide is the next extreme step from there.

SW: After the second attempt, the last one. You'd said that you went into the hospital. What helped?

JN: Getting sober.

SW: Okay getting sober.

JN: Yeah, because I'm not clinically, I was not diagnosed with clinical depression. So I've never been on medication. For me, the severe depression that led me to suicidal ideation and led me to, to suicide attempts was because of alcohol and drug extreme alcohol and drug use that, that when you drink that much and, and drug, although alcohol was my main, Idid other drugs

as well, but alcohol was the steady mainstay. And when you drink that much, it sinks you into a grand canyon of depression. And once the alcohol and drugs were removed from my system, the depression began to lift. You know, now that I've been sober 11 and a half years, it's not there. The severe depression is not there. And I certainly suffer from, you know, bad days and depression and feeling bad about myself,  but it doesn't sink me to that level of  seriously wanting to kill myself. I still have suicidal thoughts, but it's more, it's kind of like, you know, things don't go my way. I'm like, God, this is awful. I'm going to kill myself. I mean in a little bit beyond, you know, a lot of people say that and they don't mean it at all. Sometimes I say that and think, you know, that might be a good choice. But I get nowhere near there because I'm not drinking and drugging. Yeah, so what saved me from being, I mean, for me, being sober in a 12-step program  is my number one suicide prevention plan.

SW: Right.

JN: And therapy. I've been in since I got sober. I've been  working with the same therapist, my analyst, I like to call him, you know, a New York thing.

SW: So it sounds like from 2006, there's been a lot of changes.

JN: Yes, yeah, lot of changes. I mean, I went to the rehab for 60 days and came back and went to work with,  did an outpatient program for a few months, which is where I met my analyst and then I went private with him. Go to 12 step meetings all the time. I ended up, I left the publishing corporate world, started my own business, started writing the memoir and started performing. So yeah, I've got a whole different life and I'm no question so glad that that last suicide attempt did not take because I was certainly I was wrong when I told myself and I looked in that mirror and said I'm done, I’m done.. Yeah, I was wrong.

SW: You were not correct about that. I know that you're an accomplished writer and performer, storyteller. I would have to imagine that was also just a huge help for your creative juices and spirit.

JN: Oh, absolutely, absolutely. I mean, when I started writing seriously and I enrolled in a writing workshop and that's where I began writing the memoir and I remember the first time that I had in that first semester when I had written something that like I just really nailed it and it was something I was really proud of. Everyone in the workshop loved it. That high was greater by far than any high I had drinking or drugging.

SW: I'm always curious about how people respond to people in pain or despair, certainly if they've tried to end their lives. But how did they respond when they learned that you had tried?

JN: You know, there were the people of my immediate people around me, Michael my partner and my parents and you know, it's just you know, we love you and you know, my god You can't do that again. I think it was more, a lot of people knew, but they didn't say anything because it was so after the fact, you know, they're like, what do you say? It's just, you know, there was, and I was also more, and I was also, I had gotten sober. And so it was more about people focused on, so,  you know, we're so proud of you for getting sober. You've done such a great thing. I hear you're doing great. So it was more focused on the fact that I was sober rather than what finally got me sober, which is a suicide attempt.

SW: There was some time that had elapsed.

JN: But I've had people say, you know, when I've talked about it, I'm so glad you didn't succeed. Although this is funny, my mother, I call her mama Jean in the book. And she was this just over the top Texas woman, you know, with,  you know, the, the, the big hair done once a week and never left the house, not looking camera ready with her makeup on. And she just loved me. And it was kind of smother love that,  was sometimes often hard to deal with. And, know, when that suicide attempt happened Michael called her and she slapped on her face and got on the plane and flew to New York to rescue her baby and get me into rehab. And she just, you know, just adored me and, know, always wanted to be with me and all this. And so when I got back from the hospital after a week of detox where she'd been waiting and she was just, Oh she just hugged me and said Oh, I'm just so happy to see you alive. And, um, and then there was a little mini intervention with some of my psychiatrist friends, good girlfriends who knew about addiction issues. And so I agreed to go to rehab. And then when it was done, my mother, she just looked at me and she pointed a perfectly sculpted red fingernail at me and said, your drinking days are over. And by the way, suicide is a mortal sin. So it's a damn good thing you didn't succeed. Otherwise you couldn't spend eternity in heaven with me.

SW: What do you say to that?

JN: So somehow it became about her. But yeah, that's a different story. She was a Catholic. I grew up Catholic of course, it's a mortal sin. Texas, yes. 

SW: Wow, what part of Texas?

JN: Beaumont,  Southeast Texas near Louisiana border and Gulf of Mexico.

SW: All right, interesting. I wouldn't have guessed that. But now that you say that I hear something, I'm like, is that a slight little twang?

JN: That's what you hear. Little Southeast Texas twang.

SW: Southeast Texas twang. Hmm. It sounds like you're in a pretty decent place.

JN: I am. I am these days, yes.

SW: Good.

JN: For those who are around someone who they think are in trouble, are at risk of trying to kill themselves, they should be able to ask, they should ask the question to that person. Just no one asked me that question. I don't know if people around me thought that I might have tried to kill myself, but I wonder if if anyone had asked me that. And it doesn't mean that the person is going to answer you honestly, you know. But people feel like, oh, that's it's rude to ask that, you know, that's it's unseemly to ask, you know, honey, I'm worried about you, you look, you seem so depressed and despondent and hopeless. I'm worried that you might want to kill yourself. I'm worried that you might think about ending it all. Do you feel that way? I would ask the question. if you're around someone who is heavily abusing alcohol and or drugs, know that they are high risk for suicide. One, huge bugaboo of, not even a bugaboo, it makes me angry that when suicide is talked about in the press, and I'm not necessarily saying this is the case with those who deal with depression, like psychologists and, well, I don't know. But here's the deal. Often when suicide hits the press because of someone famous kills himself like when Anthony Bourdain and Kate Spade, when those suicides happen. The story was immediately about depression and alcohol and substance abuse was almost left out of the equation. And I know there are plenty of people who are not alcoholics and drug users and do attempt suicide and kill themselves without being under the influence. Although I think there are plenty of people who aren't alcoholic and suicide who do it under the influence because because the alcohol and drugs gives them the courage to pull the trigger tie the knot You have to realize that alcohol and drug use takes you to levels of depression, of artificial depression  So,  and that's what it makes me so angry that that so often in the press when these high-profile suicides happen alcohol and and drugs are if they're even mentioned, they're kind of an afterthought. You know, in the case of Anthony Bourdain, they were like,  they realized they didn't look like there was a lot of toxic levels of, of alcohol or no drugs in his system. But I mean, he was known for being, I mean, he had stopped using drugs, but,  you know, was still a big drinker and was doing it, you know, on his shows. And the residual, even if he was, even if he was not legally drunk when he did it, who knows how much alcohol had been in his system leading up to that and there are the residual effects of that. So my advice to someone who is around someone who thinks they might be suicidal, if they're heavily using drugs and alcohol, they're at risk. They should realize that.

SW: Alcohol drug risk, ask the question, right? Ask it. What would you say to somebody who's contemplating? I think that's almost an unfair question because it's so big and broad.

JN: A quick simple answer to the person who's contemplating suicide. You know what? Don't do it today. You can always do it tomorrow. Just for the day. You want to kill yourself? Fine. But you know what? Do it tomorrow. And if tomorrow comes, which is today, when it comes, and you still want to kill yourself, say, wait till tomorrow. That may seem a little, that may seem too simplistic, but... It also, it's the same  thinking that keeps a lot of people sober who are struggling at the very beginning of their sobriety of, they're white knuckling it and they want to take that drink and rather than saying they can never drink again, rather than saying I'll never kill myself, just say, you know what, I'm not going to do it today, but you know what, I can drink tomorrow. I really want to drink right now over this, but let me just drink, wait till tomorrow. And often when tomorrow comes, you'll be glad that you didn't drink the day before, just like you'll be glad that you didn't kill yourself the day before. My other advice is... is just tell someone that you feel this way.

SW: Yeah.

JN: To talk to someone that you just to let someone know you're feeling that low. And then my advice to the person who is hearing that is to not immediately judge and say, don't do it. You can't kill yourself. It's wrong. It's cowardly. It's selfish. In other words, to send out all the judgmental opinionated stuff is just to listen and say, that sounds really awful.  And I can see why you want to do that. But I know that I would miss you. And I know a lot of other people would. And I know you still have a lot to give. And maybe that person can then say, well, you know what? Just wait till tomorrow. And I know  the intention is good, but. But by saying, you know, that's wrong, don't do that. How could you, you know, think about how many people you'll hurt?  It's invalidating their feelings, and that's not the that's not the right approach.

SW: I think there's a lot of well-intentioned truly, and they don't realize they're doing that. And they say those things and they are invalidating. They're not helpful. I'm glad that you not only pointed that out, but you actually specifically gave examples, which is, I think, really helpful for people to hear. This is what validation sounds like. So thanks for that. For some reason, I can talk about this subject a lot. At length. 

JN: It should be talked about. No, no, it should be. There's not enough talk about it. And, you know, and I've noticed, you know, I'll post when I post stuff on the on social media around suicide, either I've written something about it or I've told a story about it for one of the storytelling shows or I've done. I have noticed I get there's less response. Then because I think it's still it's people are squeamish about it. It's weird. It's, you know, how, what to say. I don't want to think about that, you know, that kind of thing. So I'm glad that you're doing this because the, the more we talk about it the more we, the more we normalize it, I don't mean normalize the act of suicide or the access to our suicidal thinking, but if we just to bring it out in the open, just like we talk much more about alcohol and substance abuse and we talk much more about depression. Um, we need to talk more about suicide and suicidal thinking.

SW: I agree. You know, I heard you, I've heard several of your stories,  including the one about or that revolves around your suicide attempt. It wasn't just about that. Do people come up to you and say thanks for doing that? Do you remember how people respond in that setting?

JN: Yeah, I've had, again, I would say it's less response. If there's, you know, after the fact, if it's a live event and people coming up to me, I would say there have been  fewer  people coming up to me or responding after those stories. But what I have got, but the quality of the people who do come up to me and respond is good because they're like, you know, they share their story. That either they have attempted or they knew someone or they knew someone who attempted and succeeded and they've been grateful that I shared the story. And I've also had a lot of people in recovery who related to it since, of course, the story is as much about  addiction as it is about suicide. You know, have been deeply appreciative of me sharing the story and how it's helped them or how it relates to their own experience.

SW: They don't hear it very often. I would imagine that those rooms, the 12 steps, they produce some really good storytellers.

JN: Yeah they do.  Yes. And you know what? Here's the other thing.  Everyone, most people at the end who are, who are in recovery, who are sober from alcohol and drugs at the end of their using, almost all of them wanted to die because when you get to the end, you have using, are, you are hopeless  and have lost interest and all the things that used to interest you and you want to die. Alot of those people, if you go to those 12 step rooms, there's suicide talk constantly because a lot of people thought about it. A lot of people tried it.  So you hear it in there constantly again, that's why back to my rant about when people talk about suicide and just

kind of dismiss the role that alcohol and drugs plays in depression and suicidal thinking, which is huge. And when they talk about, oh, suicide prevention and how could we, how do you see it? We didn't see it coming. Well, if someone is drinking and drugging heavily, there's the warning sign right there. It's pretty obvious. It's pretty obvious. But yes, it does produce a lot of storytellers and which also actually being in those rooms.  I liked I'm a natural performer and a fairly open person anyway. However, having been sober and been in those rooms for a while  and being able and talking about my story and hearing other people talk openly about their story made it easier for me when I decided to write the memoir and start telling stories publicly because I was you know it kind of laid the foundation.

SW: Is there a burning thing you want to share that I may not have asked about?

JN: I don't think so. I don't think so. But I can tell you this, I'm happy to be alive. Happy neither one of those suicide attempts took. I don't ever want to  do it again. And I'm pretty sure that if I drank and drugged again, it would lead me back to suicidal ideation. And that's why I want to stay sober.

SW: Yeah, well, I'm glad that it didn't work. Your efforts didn't pan out and you're here and no doubt several people, more than several people are better for it and happy that you've stuck around for a while, so.

JN: I wouldn't be talking to you, right? That's true. right there is the gift. 

SW: It's a gift. I appreciate your time very much and being so open and candid and honest about all this. Thanks again.

JN: Thanks for having me.

SW: Enjoy the rest of your summer. Thank you so much for listening. Again, if you like this podcast, please rate and review it. Again, if you have a story you'd like to share, you know, somebody that does please reach out. Hello@suicidenoted.com. You can also follow us on Facebook. Until we connect again. Please stay strong, do the very best you can, and I will talk to you soon.