Sept. 17, 2020 

SW = Sean Wellington, ES = Emma in South Africa

ES: The biggest thing is just to be heard and just for someone to be completely neutral on the situation and to just listen, not to respond, not to defend, not to tell me how many blessings I have in life, how much I'm losing, how many people care about me to just, for me to give them my feelings and for them to look at them as raw and as painful as they are, but just acknowledge.

SW: Hey there, my name is Sean and this is Suicide Noted. On this podcast, I talk with suicide attempt survivors so that we can hear their stories. Every year around the world, millions of people try to take their own lives and we almost never talk about it. And when we do talk about it, many of us, including me, are not very good at it. So one of my goals with this podcast is to have more conversations and hopefully better conversations with attempt survivors. Now we are talking about suicide so this may not be a good fit for everyone. Please take that into account before you listen. But I do hope you listen because there is so much to learn. These stories by these survivors have been heard now in 55 countries. Countries like Ireland, Bolivia, Iceland, Argentina. More people from more places are hearing these stories because they need to, because they matter. Now if you're a Suicide Attempt survivor and you'd like to share your story, I would love to talk. You can email us at hello@suicidenoted.com  and if you'd like to support the podcast, we'll keep doing what you're doing. Keep listening, let people know about it.

If you want to rate it or review it, that would help too. Today I am talking with Emma. Emma lives in South Africa and she is a suicide attempt survivor. I asked Emma why or how she came to be comfortable talking openly about her suicide, but we had a tech glitch. So Emma recorded her answer and sent it to me. The rest of our interview you will hear as it took place live.

SW: How are you Emma? 

ES: I'm good, how are you? 

SW: Good. I'm glad we got this figured out and we can talk. So are you in, you're in Johannesburg?

ES: Yes, South Africa.

SW: Yeah, I actually had a really nice conversation with a woman in South Africa last week for this podcast. So  really interesting.

ES: That is exciting.

SW: Yeah, yeah. So let me ask you this, Emma. You are okay sharing with me and because it's a podcast, anybody who listens to it, about something in your life that a lot of people wouldn't talk about, a suicide attempt, and I'm wondering why.

ES: The reason that I wanted to share my story today is because it's sometimes easier to be vulnerable and open and transparent with people outside of the group of family and friends because they attach intense emotions to it and you don't want to hurt the people that you love. So sometimes it's just refreshing getting the opportunity to be completely transparent and open with a stranger. And also I think I've done it because it is therapeutic for me and I am a person who likes to share. Every time I get an opportunity to share my story or an experience that I've had, it gives me the opportunity to own that experience and own that situation. And so I do find it very therapeutic. And also I would like to share for people who can possibly relate to this, or people who can become aware of this and just know how to approach others and how to help others.

SW: So are you comfortable sharing about your attempt?

ES: So I had, my attempt happened last October and I had already planned to do something in March. I didn't exactly know what I was gonna do or how I was gonna do it, but the just overwhelming urge because I've always had these moments where I would plan it or I would think of it, or obsess over it, but throughout the years that kind of just do something that would be enough. So I would drug myself enough to fall asleep that night or I would just do something to get myself to escape in that moment. But then, yeah, last year, March, I really started planning this and I ended up finding out in July last year that I would have to retake certain classes for my university program. And I just know that my parents are very stern when it comes to academics. It was just, I had moved six and a half hours away. Everything had just changed and I was just so miserable here. I then ended up getting put in a psychiatric hospital in August because I stopped sleeping. I would just, I couldn't move. I'd be paralyzed in my bed and I would phone the classmates, I'd be like, listen, please just tell them that I'm late for class because I don't feel well. So it just got to the point where I had to be admitted and admission was quite hard for my parents to accept because they're not really, they don't really believe in 

the use of psychiatric medication. They don't really understand that people can have psychological issues. And after getting admitted, I was just pumped up on drugs and I assumed that I was okay.  And I just then again, with all this new medication that I got, started, so I'm quite impulsive and obsessive. I started heavily researching the medication that the psychiatrist had put me on. So every night I was just finding articles and academic articles to read on what these drugs could do to me. And I just remember finding out in October that I'd failed a class and I just didn't know how I was going to tell my parents. And that night my father had just sent me around a message that just said, I love you and I don't know why, but it just completely triggered me and I took out all the medication that I had. I laid it out on my bed and I physically started counting, pill by pill to see how much that I had. I grabbed scissors from my desk and I cut myself and I told myself, I was like, okay, I'm going to hurt myself and then I'm going to drink this medication because there's a certain...antidepressant that I was put on called Welbutrin. But I was instructed to stop using it because I was allergic to it. And so that is the drug that I told myself, okay, I'm going to use this up the most. And I'm going to use up all of it because I had about 27 pills of it left. And I used up all of it and I was just like, I'm going to cut myself a minute, get into the shower. I'm going to drink this and I'm just going to die in my bed. And my parents will try phone me and no one will be able to get hold of me. They'll find my roommate and she won't be able to get hold of me. And they're just going to have to open my room and find me dead. And I then cut myself. I got into the shower. I drank the pills and then there was just this immediate like shock and fear. But at this point, I think I had 37, 42, pills down my throat already. So I went to the bathroom and I tried to throw it up, but nothing was happening. And I got so scared. There was a girl that I was quite close with that I grew up with, and she did a degree in something similar to nursing. And I phoned her and I asked her, is there any way that I can try and make myself throw up. She said, you've taken too much. You need to go to the hospital. And I refused. I told her that I will, put the phone down and I just sat in the bathroom,   just kept crying and crying and just my heart started racing. I was sweating. I was nauseous and I eventually ended up phoning my neighbor and she took me to the hospital and I just remember them taking blood and telling me that it's not enough for them to just...let me sit there. So they put an NT tube down and I ended up throwing all of this up with  activated charcoal. And I remember that when I, when they had pumped my stomach, I did feel a lot better. And it's sort of like I lied to myself. I was like, can I go home now? I looked at the nurse and I was like, I feel great now. Can I go home? And everyone was like, you're crazy. You can't go home. And I then remember getting, cause I was in the emergency room and I remember the nurse who did the NT tube with me. She sat next to the bed with me cause I asked her, there was just this strong feeling after, there was just the feeling in me that told me if this woman left me, I was going to die. So I told her this and I was like, I know this sounds crazy, but if you leave this bedside,

I will die." And she's like, no, you can't die. Like, we've pumped your stomach, you're okay. But she's like, if you're scared, I'll wait with you till you fall asleep. And when a bed clears we'll bring you out. And so she stayed with me and I remember that the curtains were drawn and I wasn't hooked on to any machines and this lady sat in, she was just asking me questions but she was just on simple normal questions like how many siblings do you have, what do your parents do? And I kind of felt my tongue get heavy and the last thing I remember is just seeing white and the next day I'd been working up in ICU with an oxygen mask and all these  drips in. And out of fear, the first thing I did was rip this mask off and I was ripping the drips out of my hand. And this woman came and she calmed me and she was like, no, you've not been put in here because you had two seizures, one after the other. And you had, I think they were five minutes apart and one last seven minutes and the next I said ten. So they were just like we didn't know if you were gonna be okay and at that point they'd already phoned my parents because I think they all must have thought I was gonna go and…. [long pause]

SW: You okay?

ES: Yes, I'm fine.

SW: Take your time. And if you don't want to share, that's fine. I appreciate what you are sharing.

ES: And that's all that had happened.

SW: Yeah.So it sounds like from what you shared and please tell me if I'm not correct that once you, once you tried and you said you use the words shock and fear you wanted to undo it.

ES: I did. And I think that the reason that I wanted to is just I don't know, I just, I think I didn't want to die alone. If that makes sense. I know that sounds dumb, like you trying to kill yourself, but you don't want to die alone. And I was just so scared to be alone. After I'd done it, I just didn't want to be left alone. I don't even know how to describe it, but I just didn't want to be alone.

SW: Yeah. For what it's worth, not wanting to die alone is to me sounds like the opposite of dumb, whatever that is. There's nothing dumb about that. So I've never been in that  position. I've shared with people, I've never tried to end my life. A few people very close to me have, and I don't know if we use the word ‘succeeded’, but they're dead. And I've been an ideator for years to different degrees where I've come kind of close and I've thought about it a lot. So I never suggest or pretend that I know what that's like, but for some reason saying you didn't want to die alone, that makes total sense to me. Yeah. So you said that your parents were called. I am wondering if you're comfortable sharing and again, if you're not, then we don't have to talk about that. I always ask about how people, how people responded when they learned maybe, you know, family or friends or whomever. And you did mention your parents. So how did they respond when they learned of this?

ES: My dad was in a lot of shock and the first thing that, well from what I heard from what my siblings told me, because I was a six hour drive away from my parents, so when they got the call the first thing my dad did was he woke up my mom and he was like, our child's dead, she's dead, she's dead. And he ran to my older sister's room and he was like, your sister's depressed, how could you not know this, how could you not see this? And my sister was like, I don't, like, I'm not wirth her. We are both here. Well, how was I supposed to know? And my mom just in total shock. was, her thing was more just why would she do that? And as soon as they went to the hospital, the first thing that my dad did, my dad saw me and he just burst into tears. And he actually, he signed RHT. Which stands for refusal to hospital treatments. So he himself is a doctor. And when I was in ICU, at this point I was fine, I was stable, my vitals were okay. And I was just then waiting to see a psychiatrist and  to see a neurologist because of the seizures, just to check that everything was still okay physiologically. And my dad just, he fought this doctor and he was like, I'm not leaving her here. And so he physically carried me and drove me six hours back home after the attempt. He just didn't, he didn't say anything. He just took me out. And the January later, so he just waited for me to finish exams and we ended up having this lunch where he took me out. And he was just saying that if I had died, that he wouldn't be able to carry on and that my siblings and my mom would have lost a husband and a child. And there were certain friends who had called me selfish. There were certain people who looked at me and said, I forgive you. And honestly, to this day, I feel like all of those things were so wrong to say because I do not feel at all and people can judge me for this. People can... Because a lot of the times you hear from others that suicide is selfish. And it's…

SW: Yes, that's what I hear. I don't agree with it, but I hear that. Yes.

ES: That's the one statement you hear is that suicide is so selfish. And for me, it was such a selfless act. It was something that I was doing for the first time that was not about how was this next person going to feel. What is selfish in me trying to end my life? Because you are the selfish one. Because why do you want me around? It's to please your emotions, to make sure that you… are happy to make sure that your life is great just because I'm a part of it. It's all about you. You don't really care that I'm hurting. You just want me to live with my hurts enough to just be around you. So who is selfish? Is it me? I don't think so.

SW: I think that's a great question and a fair question. And so were there, was there anyone in your life that responded in a way that you felt was kind or loving or empathetic?

ES: I don't want to take away from all the people that did say something or planted a seed of, I prayed for you. I'm glad you're okay. There were people who did, but honestly, I just don't feel, and even till today, I've not really, and this is also, if it answers the first question of why I'm sharing this is just because…I also think that the people in your life just, they're so close to you and they just think a certain way. And sometimes some people would be like, I forgive you, but I'm glad you're here. So it's still like, it's your fault, but hey, you're not dead, so thanks. There wasn't really anyone that stood out or said anything that just completely touched me or… there was no one.

SW: What about somebody who didn't necessarily say something, but didn't say any of those other things that, you know, make people feel awful. Sat with you, maybe listen to you. And I'm not trying to blame or point fingers. I'm just trying to gauge. You know, because I know one of the reasons I do this podcast is to… I don't know, make people more aware of the things that they do that can really be harmful, you know, or make a problem. There's already a problem and you're not making it better.

ES: Unfortunately, in my case, if I'm completely honest, and also because I grew up religiously and with Christian faith, was a lot of this, Jesus is not happy. You need to pray this, but we prayed for you and you see Jesus went… none of it. I'm sorry, I can't really, and I do apologize if any friends or family hear this and they just think that I'm nasty, but, it was all very kind that they used both sides of the coin. So they used a little bit of that. They guilted me and comforted me at the same time.

SW:  Yeah, I, I, I please don't feel any need to apologize, but if you feel like you must, I, yeah. What could someone have done or said that may have been helpful? Cause I, I want people who hear this to know, you know, they don't, maybe they don't know Emma, right? They don't know you, but are there some things that are more likely to, to be helpful or useful or something that isn't harmful or damaging and what would have been helpful for you and what might be helpful for others?

ES: As soon as someone says to you, because I did, and I got to a point where I would start speaking about myself in past tense, I would go  ‘I was a good person.’ And some people would catch it. Some people would be like, you were, but you are. And I think that just in those moments when someone is… not giving you those hints, but then you can notice that something like that is happening. I think the best thing to do is despite your beliefs and despite what you morally or in terms of your religion think is right. So think that you just need to get that person help. And if you don't have the capabilities to just find resources, go, there are so many organizations that, I know that when I was 13, I was calling the UK brand Samaritans to cry over the phone for hours. There are so many organizations and things that, and people that you can reach out to that don't necessarily cost anything. And I think if you can just, whether you understand mental illness or not, if you can just get the person help, just don't be selfish.

SW: Yeah.

ES: Don't put your beliefs, don't put your morals, don't insert your religion into the situation, just get them help.

SW: That is a little ironic, isn't it? That people call suicide attempt survivors selfish and yet maybe there's sometimes the selfish ones. No? Maybe?

ES: Yes, I think so.

SW: It must be very difficult for somebody to think I'm gonna get them help if they have certain beliefs around God. I'm not a believer, but I respect what anybody's beliefs, but if that is their belief well hmm and Prayer is what you do for them it's the right thing and the it's sufficient I would imagine, right?

ES: Yes, but one of the biggest things is recently also in March this year, I got sick. And the first thing that my parents did, because it was physiological, we went to the hospital. We saw gynecologist, we got diagnosed. I had an operation. I got put on medication. An easy solution, an easy fix. When a woman six and a half hours away who studied 12 years of her life and practiced, phones my parents and says, your child is depressed, your child is having a breakdown, she needs admission. Then it's like, no, this is rubbish. This doesn't need help, this is rubbish. What is this? I think people choose, so is your God then only, because I am a Christian, I grew up in the church and I grew up in a Christian school, then is God only sufficient when it's anything else besides mental? And is that when we can use God and medicine together? And then when it becomes mental, do we only just rely on God? So is medication and admission just, that's not enough?

SW: Mm-hmm. That's a good question. What kind of support have you gotten since, I believe it was, was it last October?

ES: Yes.

SW: So you had mentioned that you're seeing a therapist or you had been seeing a therapist. Is that right?

ES: I'm currently still seeing her, yes.

SW: And is that helpful?

ES: I have actually just also just because of certain, like my parents aren't completely comfortable with the idea and just because of this current coronavirus and lockdown I haven't really been able to speak to her. She herself does not know any information about the suicide attempt. So when it happened in October I had two sessions with her and it was just because I was writing end year exams. So she was just helping with stress in terms of university end year exams. She wasn't helping for the attempt and I've just not spoken to her about it. And I think that maybe in therapy I've even held back a bit and I haven't really completely explored this or spoken about it. So I think it will definitely help once I speak about it more and engage with her in terms of this.

SW: So in the last year or so, what if anything has changed? And I don't ask that because you have to have changed. Are you in a slightly better space or is it similar to when you attempted?

ES: It's completely suppressed. So I don't entertain thoughts of, I don't acknowledge my thoughts. I don't acknowledge my feelings. I don't entertain them. So there's just, and then there's unhealthy ways of coping. I know that it was just a lot of drinking in December and January. And it was just because I just didn't want to speak and I wasn't getting help. And I just remember just before Christmas crying to my mom and just asking her if I could get readmitted because I just, I felt like I was going crazy again. But then since then I've kind of just suppressed everything. So it's just. I've just put it in my head that I can't right now. That I just can't deal with emotions right now. So just haven't really dealt with anything.

SW: Yeah, doing what you gotta do. So that means you are not on any kind of medication to feel a little bit better or reduce the negativity or whatever it is.

ES: I'm currently not on any, any psychiatric medication because of again, beliefs. I was on antidepressants. My psychologist still thinks that I need therapy and medication at this point, but I just don't really have access to the drugs. So I'm not really on anything. I have a bit of like sleeping tablets and anxiety medication that are all prescriptions that but it's like three pills left and I just it's sort of like I saved him for breakdowns.

SW: And how has the lockdown, which I don't know what it's like where you are, but I think it's somewhat similar in most parts of the world. We're mostly inside. We're restricted in where we can go and who we can see and how we can engage. Has that made it additionally harder for you?

ES: In the beginning, yes. In the beginning it was very hard emotionally. I just, I felt low. I even, when speaking to  a friend that was close to me in the beginning of lockdown, I did say that I felt...if not worse or the same that I did just before getting put in the psychiatric hospital. I said that I was feeling that way, but as it went on, it got a bit better.

SW: And we don't know what's going to happen obviously, right? I mean, none of us do

ES: We really don't. So I think that's also quite scary.

SW: Yeah.And are you, where are you right now? You're with your family?

ES: No, so I have now moved back to my university which is again the six hours away from family and friends.

SW: And so you're in Johannesburg, but you're not from Johannesburg.

ES: So I'm from Johannesburg but studying in a town called Lundfensein.

SW: That's a great name.

ES: Yes, it's actually Afrikaans.

SW: That might be my favorite word. And I just heard it for the first time and I'm in love with it. Lundfensein?

ES: Yes, Lundfensein.

SW: Wow. What are you studying Emma?

ES: Physiotherapy

SW: Physical therapy?

ES: Yes.

SW: So what do you think, what do you think, you're gonna like this question I think. What is one or perhaps more than one myth about any of this stuff, suicide, suicide attempt, survivors? What's a myth that you wanna just flat out say, nope, that's BS.

ES: I think definitely as we've established, the selfishness, it's such a big thing for me is just don't call people selfish because they're not. I saw it for myself personally. I saw it as the most selfless thing. And I think the second thing that if it's a myth that I could bust would be because everybody now goes, you look good. You're okay. You look good. You're okay. And I think that it's also not okay to sort of force that on the person to be like, okay, you've tried, you've not succeeded. So you're fine now, you're over it. You've kind of gotten it out of your system. And I just don't, that's not true. You can't just force people to be okay after it's happened.

SW: Of course. Do you have any idea, I'm going to ask you to play, I don't know, sociologist, psychologist, do you have any idea why people do that? Why do they say things like, well, you look okay. You must be okay as opposed to how are you doing? And really, you know, letting them share how they're really any idea why this? Cause it happens a lot here too. It's probably everywhere.

ES: I think it's more for family and friends or people that need to find comfort in sort of, it's sort of, cause a lot of people have always asked me to promise them. My dad sat next to me and he was like ‘promise me you're not doing this again.’  And I think it's more of a comfort thing for family and friends to reassure themselves and find some sort of comfort that, okay, this person is okay. They're not going to do this again. They are fine.  I think for them, the fear of hearing,  I'm not okay is … I think it would be too much for them to handle. So I think that they just shove it onto you. And I don’t think that they mean to do it. I think it's like a traumatic reflex for them where they’re just like, we can't go through this again. So you’re fine you’re okay. It's out of the system. The wheel keeps turning.

SW: When I started this podcast, I thought the main thing, like the main thing was if there are people out there in some kind of pain, despair, maybe they'll feel a little less alone. And I still think that's, that's one of my main reasons to do it. But as I've done it more, I think the equally important reason is some of the stuff we've talked about, which is more directed at people who are in positions of you know, support, family, friends. You're getting it mostly wrong. Listen, please, to what Emma and other people are saying, because I think it's so... Does that make sense?

ES: Yes, I definitely, I definitely think  I don't know, I can only speak for myself. I don't know any other people who have shared. But I think the biggest thing is also as I told you, the reason that I'm sharing is just, just to be heard and just for someone to be completely neutral on the situation and to just listen, not to respond, not to defend, not to tell me how many blessings I have in life, how much I'm losing, how many people care about me to just, for me to give them my feelings and for them to look at them as raw and as painful as they are, but just acknowledge. Don't make me feel guilty for those feelings. Don't make me feel bad for feeling those things because my psychologist even said it in our session on Tuesday, a lot of people kind of make comments like ‘you always need to be sad’.  And who in their right mind would want to feel sad?

SW: Sure.

ES: No one sits there and says, want to feel these things. No one sits there and goes, today I want to kill myself. No one sits there for months and says, one of these days I'm going to die and they're going to just find me laying there. So I do think it's for a lot of people to be heard and for people who know friends or family or classmates or coworkers. If someone is telling you something, just take it, look at it. I'm not asking you to accept it and agree with it, but just as they've given it to you, look at it, acknowledge it and help where you can.

SW: We don't learn this stuff. Certainly not formally. We don't learn it and it shows. It really shows.

ES: Definitely. It's still a very taboo thing.

SW: Maybe more so in South Africa than here, I don't know. Maybe it depends on the particular community within, but yeah.

ES: Yes, I think in terms of cultural groups and religious groups, some just really don't accept or speak or open up the floor for that conversation.

SW: We're not going to talk about it. And if we don't talk about it, it kind of doesn't exist and we can just go on. Yeah? Did you ever have a talk with your siblings? What, what, what did they have to say in the aftermath or, you know, up until this day?

ES: My older sister, I because she was the first line  of communication that my parents had ran to, she sort of, we've had discussions like I shared with you. I explained to her what had happened on my end during that night, and she had opened up and said, okay, dad came rushing in at this point, and she just, that was kind of, we've just spoke about the act itself.

And my two other siblings just don't mention it. They don't like to speak about it. They don't bring it up. It's not something we discuss. So it's been more of,  more of like a fact storytelling of the incidents. We don't attach emotion to it. We don't, we don't do that.

SW: Right, so some of the stuff that happened, that's okay, but how you're feeling then or now, less so, or maybe not at all.

ES: My older sister definitely tries. I know that before coming here, I was quite nervous to return to university. And I'd opened up to her and I said, I've been storing medication again. I've hid all these drugs and I'm going to keep them for just in case. And she was just like, well, you need to speak to someone. And I think for her, especially because she is...in her final year of medicine and she's dealt with psychiatric patients where this is now a reality for her, where she really does understand that things like this do exist. And for her, she's kind of, she's not personally, she's a person who's not very emotional, so she won't sit and have a whole conversation spilling emotion. But for her, it's more of thing of, being proactive. So she's like, okay, good. You've, you've mentioned this. Now give me the drugs or you're feeling this way. Don't feel this way. You know? So she really does try.

SW: The fact that you're storing drugs based on what you shared earlier, that is a, and what we're talking about stays right here, just to be very, very clear. That is a red flag, no?

ES: It is. It is. And I've spoken to my psychologist about it. And one of the things that she did say was at this point does she need to be worried? And I told her that no, for now I'm stable. But the thing is what does get me is that it's in my reach, but I'm also, I'm also quite toxic to myself in the sense of I've only the once had I then given my psychologist pills, I was like, just in case I have a bad day, he has a bunch of medication and she had been taken it and she had removed it from her office and she done whatever with it. But I understand that it is a problem, but also I'm so scared to not have them in case I need them. But the fact that there is an in case is also very scary.

SW: Do you think about your life beyond a month or six months? Or is it more like I just gotta get through the day?

ES: One of the things that for my suicide attempts I always said, I said to one of my lecturers and one of my friends is, after last year, something in my brain kind of ticked. I remember that I've always struggled with emotions and I really, as young as the age of nine, I sort of put in my head or just clung to this feeling that became a fact for me, of I was not meant to be born. I was not meant to be here. And the older I got, it would be like, okay, I'll get into high school. It will get better. I'll get into university and it will get better. So I was always looking forward to the next chapter being brighter and something about last year. The attempt  has completely shut that down. Of course, to friends and family, when I speak [inaudible]. But if I'm completely honest with myself, I don't. I don't see anything. And it's sort of like that got ripped away from me last year is that I can't picture anything. I don't, it's like I don't see any good for myself. don't see, I don't picture myself in a graduation stage. I don't picture myself doing this job. I can't see it. And it may just be because right now my mind is clouded.

SW: Maybe.

ES: And maybe once it clears, I'll be able to finally picture that. But ever since last year, I think from last year, I stopped hoping for the next chapter. I stopped hoping for the next year. There's all these memes on how people want to redo or want a cancellation of 2020 and want a refund and can't wait for 2021. And I've just not felt that way. I sort of just.

SW: It's a hope thing, huh? Or no hope.

ES: Yes.

SW: Do you have a date and when you're, don't know if the right word is supposed to graduate, how far away are you from that?

ES: I am three years away from graduating.

SW: How old are you?

ES: I am 22.

SW: You're very mature. I thought you were older, not by the way you look, you just carry yourself with a certain level of maturity and grace. 

ES: Thank you. 

SW: If there are people out there like you are, or particularly were last year, and there are many, obviously the details vary, but you know, people were in a real pain and they're thinking some very dark things and they may act on those things. You know, obviously you don't know them, but is there anything you could say to them?

ES: Please do it for yourself, even if it's writing a letter and handing it off to a friend because you can't speak. Even if it's rushing yourself to the emergency room and crying and saying, I'm sad. Do it for yourself, not for your grandmother, not for your mother, not for your friends. Just do it for yourself. You are so much more than that feeling and you deserve at least a bit of happiness, not even a bit. You deserve bucket loads of happiness. And I think just, just get help for you. Just want help for you. Just do something.

SW: What else would you like to share?

ES: The one thing is, I always feel bad that family and friends sometimes feel like they're not enough and they don't feel that what they say or what they do is enough. And I, if I could tell any of my friends or family that would listen to this, or if I could speak for some other people who maybe feel the same way, it's not your fault. You are not, not enough. What you say is not, not enough. It is not because of you that my laundry will pile up to the ceiling or that I can't get out of bed or that I can't bathe myself or I can't make myself food. It's not because of you that my groceries rot in my fridge. It's not because of you that I'm constantly sad. It is not because of you and you are not, it's not that what you do or say is not enough. It's just, there is something in my brain that is not functioning. There is, I am sick and it is not you. It's, it's the same as having diabetes. You don't go, I'm not helping my mother enough who has diabetes. She's taking insulin and she's following a treatment plan, but you are not a bad daughter because she has diabetes. And I just think that that's what I would want family and friends to know is that it's not that you are not enough. It's not that you are not doing enough. It's not that I'm not grateful. It's not that I do not want to stop because I do not feel cared for.

SW: Sounds like you've thought about that a little bit.  Me too. I love it. You're more eloquent than I am. So you summed it up beautifully. What do you do for fun? What do you do? What do you do for fun?

ES: I really enjoy writing. I enjoy writing and I'm not quite of an artist but I've recently got into painting and colouring in and I really love reading books. My favourite author is Rainbow Rowell and those are just a few things that I like to do.

SW: Yeah. I like to say where you are, but I forgot the name of the town. I just know I love the way it… say it again for me, please. 

ES: Lumpensane.

SW: What an amazing, I'm going to Google that right when we're done. I want to learn about this place. I want to check out the spelling. I have to say that it is always so it just astounds me that people agree to come on this podcast and share so openly like you have and honestly and courageously. I don't think I could do it. So I'm always like, wow. And thank you. And it's amazing. Really.

ES: I just wanted to say thank you for giving people this platform. I think it's very empowering to own your story and to speak and share. Just thank you for opening up this space and making it safe and giving people and myself that opportunity to be able to share. And I think a lot of people look for this because even if I particularly don't want my friends or family to ever find out about this, but I really wanted to share. You've given me the space where I've been able to vocalize all that I feel and it has been therapeutic. It’'s not all bottled up now. Some of it is out in the open. So I've released a bit of that tension. I've released a bit of that fear. I've released it now. So I just want to say thank you for this space. Thank you for opening up this space for plenty others and just thank you.

SW: You are absolutely welcome and it is an honor to do it and it's a pleasure to do it. You know, I say to everybody, I wish I didn't have to have a podcast like this because there wasn't a problem like this.  But there is. And so if there's a little bit I can do, I'll do it. You know,

ES: This is great and I think it's a huge thing that you're doing.

SW: I appreciate that. It's really tricky because you're all the way over there and I'm all the way over here and we have this talk for an hour and you're sharing these things. And even though I have, I can't do anything. I want to just at least ask once we get off this, do you feel okay? Because I know sharing stuff can sometimes feel very awkward or weird or uncomfortable after. So are you feeling okay?

ES: Yes, even after doing the poetic thing, just, think I feel, I feel that, cause I feel like I've been heard and I've been heard without judgements and I feel safe and I feel that I've had the opportunity to be completely honest. Then I'm at ease. It's only when I share something and I'm not really sure how the person is receiving me or what they are thinking, I think then that causes anxiety for me. But you were very receptive in such a nice way. So I think that I'll definitely, I know for a fact that I'm okay.

SW: All right. Well,  Emma, thank you once again. I have no doubt that people that hear this will be better for it. You know, you may never get to know, you may not ever get a message from somebody specifically saying that was a great thing you said. You may, but they are, there are people out there that will hear this and benefit from it. So thank you.

ES: Yes, thank you so much for the opportunity to share.

SW: Alright Emma, alright have a good day, hope you hang in as best you can and school goes well and you get through this damn COVID thing and

ES: Thank you, bye bye.

SW: Take care of yourself. Bye. Thanks again. As always, thank you so much for listening. I appreciate your support. And special thanks to Emma in South Africa. If you are a suicide attempt survivor and would like to share your story, I would love to talk. Hello@SuicideNoted.com  Stay tuned for new episodes Mondays and Thursdays until we connect again. Stay strong, do the very best you can. I'll talk to you soon.