October 19, 2020 

SW = Sean Wellington, BW = Benjamin in Western Australia

BW:  It doesn't take too much effort or time, it's just checking in on people. I think definitely having at least one person, one person in the entire world at least that you can go to, it just makes a monumental difference.

SW: Hey there, my name is Sean and this is Suicide Noted. On this podcast, I talk with suicide attempt survivors so that we can hear their stories. Every year around the world, millions of people try to take their own lives and we almost never talk about it. And when we do talk about it, many of us, including me, we're not very good at it. So one of my goals with this podcast is to have more conversations and hopefully better conversations with attempt survivors. Now we are talking about suicide. This may not be a good fit for everyone. So please take that into account before you listen. I do hope you listen because there is so much to learn. If you're a suicide attempt survivor and you'd like to share your story, I'd love to talk. You can reach out at hello@suicidenoted.com  If you like the podcast, please support us by continuing to listen and letting folks know about it. It also helps if you rate and review the podcast. This helps more people in more places find these stories from these survivors. Today I'm talking with Ben. Ben lives in Perth, Australia, and he is a suicide attempt survivor. Hey Ben.

BW: Hi

SW: I appreciate you reaching out and being open to sharing your stuff because I know most people are not. And I think it's helpful. Tell me this, you reached out to me and you had heard at least one of the episodes from this podcast. And I am curious what compelled you to reach out.

BW:  So it was sort of like a form of, guess, I want to say healing, I guess. So just like coming to terms with the whole process, um, like recovery and stuff like that, you know, the whole thing about spreading awareness and all that as well. Um, and also the fact that you had a lot of, I see you have been branching out, but sort of, you have a lot of American, um, speakers. I thought, you know, maybe getting a different perspective there would be interesting. Like I watched the one. I forgot her name but from the United Arab Emirates. Fatima. Yeah, it was nice having that different perspective and all that sort of stuff.

SW: Absolutely. It's really interesting that the way podcasts work with I guess Apple or Spotify. I don't know exactly how the algorithm works, but people can find it and it's obviously not limited to geography. It's only limited to WiFi.

BW:  Yeah, it's a good thing.

SW: Yeah. And I hope more people can hear it and more people like you reach out. I'd love to talk, you know, share with me if you would and however you want to, your attempt. And I know it's somewhat new. So again, I'll be delicate, but I'll leave it up to you what you want to share.

BW:  Okay. Yeah. So it was, unlike some of the other people that I've listened to, um, it was very premeditated for me. So I went through a very long, uh, planning process of, you know, uh, coming to terms with the facts that I wanted to end my life and sort of just having a sort of like a sense of closure, I guess. So it was a lot of planning and a lot of sort of, I guess, writing. You know, notes and stuff like that. And also just sort of going through sort of, you know, the people that I wanted to, I guess, quote unquote, say goodbye to, it was more sort of just, you know, the whole thing where you go and you, I guess, not necessarily say goodbye, but, you know, see someone for the last time. So I went through that process and I got to the point where I was sort of, I'm not full time working, so I don't have much money, but I was buying gifts for people as sort of like my last sort of way of saying, you know, goodbye. Obviously not telling them that, but that was the process. And so, yeah, I sort of gave myself a week and then it got to the point where it was sort of the day that I planned to do it. I guess I do have to sort of go briefly into it. So I was planning on taking medication, like sort of saving pills. So I was going to take them and then I'd heard stories of, you know, people overdosing and then waking up. So my, I guess, quote unquote solution to that was I would take the pills and then I would wait enough time so that they would start to set in. And then I was going to like jump off a bridge basically. So that was my plan initially. And so I got to the night and I guess. So I met a person online sort of just anonymously on, it was Reddit of all things. Sort of saying, you know, this is it, I guess. So that was something and I don't know what happened, but one of my family members somehow found that post and that was earlier in the day. So basically it was about 4 PM when, and I was at Uni at this time. This is all on the same day. So yeah, I got a ton of texts and calls from my family at that time. And I, it was the first time cause I've always been very private about this. I haven't told anyone. So yeah, there were a lot of calls and stuff and texts from family members, which I didn't actually initially respond to cause I didn't know how. I was very overwhelmed at that point. To get back on topic, yeah so it was about 11 o'clock at night. I still hadn't contacted my family. So it was getting pretty, pretty late. And, I had a friend's reach out to me, which I think I'll be talking about quite a bit. This guy's so he's someone I've known from school for about four or five years now. And we've always been very close. So he, I actually called him a few minutes before I was planning to do it all. So I called him and he didn't pick up and I was, I was, I was literally seconds away from swallowing those pills when he, he literally called me back seconds before I was able to swallow them. So he called me and sort of talked to me briefly and said he would be there. So he drove to where I was. So I was sort of near a river where the bridge was nearby. So he called me and just said, you know, stay put. I'll be there. So he came, he drove himself to me and we just talked for like two or three hours there, which was very, quite, I guess, humbling at the time because obviously I wasn't very public about the whole situation and having him there was, you know, a big, big help. So it was like the saving factor there, I think, definitely. So yeah, we were there in the parking lot for about two or three hours just talking and then I'd been drinking as well. So he drove me home. And so, yeah, that was pretty much like the actual, you know, attempt. I was that close to doing it. So yeah, he was incredibly supportive and was a good thing for me.

SW: Sure. Well, I'm wondering why, especially given that you had done some planning or maybe more than just some, why do you think you called him?

BW:  Hmm, well I was at my lowest point definitely and I didn't, I don't know why, but I just don't really see, I didn't really see my family as being a good, a good place to find support at that time. So I didn't have any other friends which I'd sort of been that close to. So he was definitely my first sort of choice. And also he'd been there as well in the past. Where things weren't so bad, but yeah, a few years ago I was feeling in a similar situation, not nearly as bad, but he was always, he was always there to help me. That was sort of why I gravitated towards him first. 

SW: Yeah. I'm imagining him and you talking when he comes. And one of the things I always ask people is how people in their life responded. Actually ask them sometimes, if they can, to go into what those conversations look like, because I think they're really important. I think a lot of people who are well-intentioned are often saying things, or sometimes not saying things, that might be harmful. 

BW:  Yeah, for sure. Yeah.

SW: I think we've all been in those conversations. I'm thinking about your friend here and it sounds like he was lending you support that was not harmful and maybe even helpful.

BW:  I honestly think he's actually not very good at talking about that kind of stuff but he has a certain way of just talking and just I guess sort of convincing you that everything's gonna be, you know, okay and you know, we're gonna move on from this. I wouldn't necessarily say he gave me advice. It was more just sort of, you know, understanding, at that point and support. There are a few friends I've talked to recently after the whole thing. Because it became very public and some of them did give me some very realistic advice and that helped me a lot. At the time this friend I wouldn't really call it advice, it was more to sort of support.

SW: I think sometimes that's what we need. To each his or her own, yeah, I guess it just really depends. When was this, Ben?

BW:  About two or three months ago now. So fairly recent.

SW: Yeah. Are you or were you recently in University?

BW:  Yeah, so I'm still at Uni. I'm a full-time student. I'm studying teaching. So that's my thing, 

SW: Awesome. When you finished up with that conversation, did you go home? Did you go to a hospital? Something else?

BW: Yeah, so originally I just didn't want to go home. I actually asked my friend if he could take me in for a day or two and I think he wanted to but his circumstances didn't really allow that. So that was another thing where he sort of pushed me to, like he drove me home but he also pushed me to sort of talk to my family about it and he actually even said to me, you know, if you need me to come in with you, then I'll be there to explain everything. And that was just like such a huge help in terms of convincing me to actually go back and talk to, you know, confront my family about it. So yeah, I, he didn't actually come in at the, at the end of the day, I was able to go in by myself, but you know, the offer was there and that sort of helped me. Yeah. So I ended up going home pretty late at night, 2am, 3am.

SW: And your family knows what happened that night.

BW:  Yeah, so it was quite a... because it was a family member, like a cousin of mine that initially saw my first post online, it sort of circulated through the family quite quickly in a span of like an hour. So I think at this point, most of the family knows. We're quite a small family anyway, sort of bound to happen, yeah.

SW: How have they dealt with it or responded?

BW: Yeah, so my immediate family has been supportive. I haven't talked to my slightly more distant family. They live quite far away. Yeah, everyone's been quite supportive and actually helped me to get some sort of professional therapy. Because that was one of my main obstacles with getting professional help was just the financial side. So they said, you know, they would help me pay for it. So that was a big help.

SW: Hell yeah. 

BW:  And I've been starting that recently. 

SW: Good. How has that been thus far?

BW:  It's good yeah. It's still sort of quite early days. So I went to a GP to get referred to a psychologist and I've had about two sessions with them now. So it's sort of just diagnosing and thinking about where, where we should go from, from here. Right. But they've definitely been helpful so far. Yeah. 

SW: Good. Do you have any idea? I hesitate to ask or use the word diagnosis. I'm not a doctor, obviously, and I know you're getting help. Do you have any idea what's up? And is there a name for it?

BW:  So when I initially went to the GP, she asked me a lot of questions. Sort of like, uh, you know, how long have you had these sorts of thoughts? Um, how severe have they been? And I just sort of said, you know, since I was like eight I think. And I thought that was, you know, normal at the time. And I find out it's definitely not a normal thing. So I sort of had a feeling in the back of my mind that I might have some sort of chronic depression. And my GP confirmed that in the first one or two sessions that I had with her. Yeah, she asked me a lot of questions and sort of got me to actually think, you know, these things are not that these things are not normal. That these are things that, you know, are not, not regular thoughts for, for other people.

SW: It's a long time to be struggling and feeling that way. Years and years, obviously.

BW:  Yeah, for sure. Yeah, and that was another thing is that, you know, cause you didn't think other people sort of had that same problem. So you sort of isolate yourself and you feel quite alienated. So that was another big thing. Yeah.

SW: Right. Do you think that the timing of it has anything to do with the state of how many of us are living these days with the lockdown or I don't know how it is in your area, but I assume it's similar.

BW:  Yeah, so actually Western Australia has been almost relatively untouched by the pandemic. It's pretty much, it's been normal life over here for the past few months, pretty much. Okay. Which is nice. Yeah. I think the pandemic might have contributed a little bit to sort of just stress and all that at the start. Personally, I feel like it didn't really affect me too much, no.

SW: I don't have any data, but pretty sure when they do eventually collect data from this time period, they will see a significant spike in all sorts of related issues, including suicide.

BW:  Oh yeah. Yep, for sure.

SW: Do you think that there is a ‘why’ behind this stuff? If I were to ask you, I guess I am asking you, it's a tough question, right? Like, cause if it were me and I've never tried, I've been close a couple of times. If someone would have asked me why, why, why did you do that? I would not really know where to begin. But I do want to ask it because some people do have answers. Like, is there a ‘why’ behind you ultimately almost taking your life.

BW: Well, I think initially there was the whole thing that I mentioned before about it sort of being very alienating. You feel very alone, isolated. if it wasn't for, you know, like that sort of my closer, like my closest sort of school friend there, I don't know what I would have really done at school. Because obviously school's a big part of your life at the time. And yeah, cause you spent, yeah, you spend hours there every day. And so if you're in a sort of culture where you feel alienated, then that really does have an impact on you, into your adult, adult life. So I went to a very like private preppy school, quite sport focused as well. And that's, that's not really who I am personally. I'm more of, you know, an introvert type person, sort of more into the arts. So yeah, that, I don't want to say I didn't fit in but it definitely, it didn't help. So he was really good in making me actually feel sort of a connection during that time. So when I got to sort of university years,  we sort of fell out of contact for about a year or so. And so that year, my first year at Uni was very hard on me. Cause I just didn't have any of the social contacts that I was used to back at school. And I think it's a problem a lot of people encounter, the transition from high school to university or college that was something. And I think, yeah, for me, sort of, I definitely do need that social aspect in my life. And so when I don't get that personally, it's quite devastating emotionally to me. That definitely added to it. And then this year, sort of, I had a lot of academic difficulties on top of all the other stuff. So because teaching is a very stressful occupation.

SW: It's what I did for several years. I agree it can be very stressful.

BW:  Yeah. So I had a prac right around the corner in the week where I planned to take my life. My prac was scheduled for the week after that. And I think there was a lot of stress regarding that as well. 

SW: Yeah. 

BW:  Socially, I wasn't doing very well at the time and, um, sort of, I was sort of losing a lot of passion in my hobbies as well. So that was another thing that was happening.

SW: Just to add to that, for people who are listening that might have people in their lives who are struggling, these are also red flags, for lack of a better word. Somebody who loves doing something and they stop loving it, that's something to be noted.

BW: I was personally very lucky that somebody saw that post that I made online. That was extremely lucky because without that I wouldn't have had any support during that day. And that probably would have not been a good combination.

SW: We would probably not be talking right now.

BW:  Exactly, yeah. So, yeah, it really stresses the importance to me of just having people that care and sort of verbalize that they care because up until now, I have been quite distant with family and stuff like that. So we're not really in the habit of talking openly about these sorts of things. And I'm not with my friends either until recently. So just having people that are there and sort of saying, you know, I'm willing to listen or you know just support you just that kind of stuff is very, it's beneficial. 

SW: Yeah. In conversations I've had with other people, there's a common thread often of I didn't die, but you still, many of them still are facing the same world, the same problems or the same whatever the next day or the next moment. Right. And so I think that's part of the conversation, at least in my experience that we often don't talk about. I think there's a lot around just don't do it. Sure. Now what? Right? So I know you're getting some professional help and it sounds like you've opened up to your family and I'm not diagnosing here at all, but there still remains some stuff. When you had emailed me, I think one of the things that stuck out was, it was a short email, but I remember you wrote something around your dark thoughts and I'm imagining those haven't just magically gone away.

BW:  For sure. And that's definitely one thing that I love him to death, but that friend of mine, he's not good at that kind of stuff. It was a very sort of, know, it's all uphill from here type thing. That really helped at the time to get me out of that immediate circumstance. Yeah, it's not always going to be that easy. And I acknowledge that a few of my other friends have had more realistic sort of viewpoints on that. Like some days it's just going to be maybe not necessarily just as bad, but it's going to be, you know, not the best. And it's not going to be a linear trajectory. And that's sort of the thing is, you know, you get this outpouring of support around, the time that you're, that you attempt. And then after that, it definitely peters out quite quickly in my experience.

SW: Yeah. Do you have any fear around, and I know this is all relatively new, so I want to be careful how I frame some of this stuff, but given that you've dealt with this for years, do you have any fear around like, this may never entirely go away? I'm going to deal with this shit forever.

BW:  Yes. it's almost that sort of feeling that if you lapse into it again, you're going to be disappointing a lot of people. Cause you know, you get that initial support from everyone and then, but once you get to, you know, if it happens again, it sort of becomes, I think in my mind and in a lot of other people's minds, it becomes a bit of a burden. That is something that you have to sort of think about. Cause yeah, you're right. It doesn't just disappear. it's definitely something that you have to work through or just live with. Yeah, I think definitely it's something that takes a lot of time to get through a lot of effort. 

SW: Yeah. You had said that you did actually write a note that evening or sometime that evening.

BW:  Yeah.

SW: You did? 

BW:  Yeah, I'll go into that. So I had written notes for most of my close friends.

SW: Oh, you wrote several notes to individual people.

BW:  Yeah, it was just sort of a coincidence that at the time, well, I had sort of everyone's notes. It was sort of like a, I guess, a way of making peace with myself. So on the day that I was attempting and that friend of mine came to help me, I sort of handed him the note and I said, you know, you can have this. And he declined it. He said, no, I'm not taking this. keep it. And that was very, it was, yeah, it was not what I was expecting. And it sort of, it actually did, I think in the end help me, cause he just wouldn't accept it. He'd said, I'm not taking this, keep it. And actually what we ended up doing with the notes that I wrote was, so we were near a river and he got me to actually throw all the notes into the river.

SW: Is that right? So all of them are in the river, gone.

BW:  Gone, yeah. That was actually very, it sounds easy just throwing a bunch of paper into the river, but it was actually physically for me, it was physically challenging at the time. It actually took me a few minutes to actually muster up sort of, you know, the strength to just throw them. A lot of that obviously would have been mental. But at the time, yeah, it was, it was sort of like a huge sort of, I don't want to say burdened that I've been carrying around, but just sort of like this obstacle. And then, yeah, once I ended up throwing them, I did feel lighter. I felt a lot lighter after I'd thrown them. So it was a sort of way to sort of, I want to say heal and move on. It was maybe a bit of a different way than you might expect, but I think ultimately it really helped me to move on from that. It was definitely very satisfying to watch the notes as they sort of floated away. It was very... that was a moment that I won't forget anytime soon.

SW:  I bet. And you want to be a teacher.

BW:  Yes.

SW: Is that still the plan or have you changed courses or changed paths?

BW:  It's still the plan. I did that prac and obviously I was emotionally still very distraught or raw when I actually went to the prac the next week. So yeah, it did affect it for sure. I definitely still want to continue that because you can be that sort of support if you need to be for students, which is something that drove me quite initially to pursue teaching.

SW: For we Western hemisphere folks, what's a prac?

BW:  I don't know if you guys would call them an internship. It's quite similar in terms of so you'd get some hands-on experience as an actual teacher, pretty much. So as a student teacher or assistant teacher, that sort of thing.

SW: Yeah, we would say internship, I think or what did I do as a teacher? Jeez it's been a while man. What age, by the way, do you want to teach? Do you know?

BW:  Secondary, so high school, that'd be, year 7 to 12, so grade 7 to 12 for you guys.

SW: What if one of your students came to you? And shared some stuff with you as teacher that sounded similar to what you've recently been going through. What might you say or do that would be... I don't know, but given what you've gone through.

BW:  Initially, I think the most important thing is always to just listen to them and then I guess reassure them that yeah, like you have support if it's needed and I can support you, that I will support you however I can in any way that I can. I think it is a bit, I don't want to say unfortunate, but it can be quite overwhelming for students because I think I'm not sure how it is in the, in the United States, but at least over here, there's very strict protocols as to sort of how you respond to a student that's disclosed to the sort of information. And I think that can be hard for some students because they don't want this whole thing to turn into something big. 

SW: Oh yeah.

BW:   It's sort of the same thing that happened to me. You know, with my family finding out it was very overwhelming at the time, but I think it's necessary. In a lot of cases, especially if a student's at the point where they're actually needing to disclose to you, then I think at that point, it might be necessary to escalate it.

SW: So the imminent risk or however you call it. I do think though I have no solutions here, but for sure there are some people for sure. Knowing what the likely response will be hospitalization or whatever. Don't don't say anything. And I think it's not good.

BW:  No, no. I actually did have a student during prac that was going through that sort of experience and this was his, his, his in grade 12. So I think there was a lot of stress going on at that time just to meet grades and marks and all that. And you wouldn't be able to tell because he’s top student in everything. But yeah, one day after class he just came in and just, yeah, it was a lot to take in. But I think he had made that choice and it actually shows maturity, I think, from a student to realize that.

SW: Oh yeah, strength, maturity for sure.

BW:  Yeah, yeah, for sure. I wasn't nearly confident enough to do that when I was a student, so. 

SW: Right, yeah, same here. How did you deal with him? I mean, you don't need to go into details, of course, but like, were you uncomfortable? Were you like, how did you respond to that?

BW:  It was the first time I encountered something like that. And, obviously we're taught a lot of responses, but I think at the end of the day, sort of just the immediate response is very, I think personal to each teacher. And so I was quite surprised actually that he chose to disclose it to me because I'd only been, I'd been a student teacher and I'd only been there for about three weeks, but I guess he felt safe enough to disclose it. It was a lot easier for me, I think, to relate and also to, I guess, build that sense of camaraderie because I'm 19, so I'm like only a year or two older than a lot of the students that I'm actually teaching in grade 12. So in that sense, it was easier for me to build that sort of trusting relationship, I think.

SW: They get you started in that classroom early.

BW: Yeah, that's young.

SW: It's interesting because I don't think I would have been able to do that. I ended up getting into teaching like high school teaching. I was maybe 30. I don't and I felt young. I felt young, which is just my own stuff. I can't imagine being, you know, a couple of you're too older than some of my students. I think it's amazing that you just did it. It would be hard for me. I'd feel weird.

BW:  Yeah, no, they definitely do get you in there early, early. I think honestly I think the earlier the better. Just get the experience and it's honestly more important than any essay or whatever you have to write, thesis.

SW: when that student came to you, was that before or after your attempt or your near attempt?

BW: After.

SW: Do you think he had any sense like this guy, Ben or Mr. Curtis, whatever they call you.

Do you think there was any of that? Or was it just more of that's a coincidence? And he just said, I can trust him.

BW:  Yeah, it's tough to say because even as a teacher, I'm quite a reserved person and with the size of the class, it was only five people in the scholars. So it was, it was very easy to get to know them on a personal level. I think either subconsciously or consciously he probably did. Because he was a very, I heard almost nothing from him for about the first two weeks. He was an incredibly quiet student, academically very good, but very quiet. And only sort of in the third week did he start opening up. And I think me being of a more reserved nature definitely helped him to open up and eventually get to that point where he felt safe disclosing information.

SW: Glad he did.

BW:  Yes, for sure.

SW: Yeah. By the way, kind of a random coincidence. I don't know if Fatima, who you had mentioned, found me or I found her, but that was, I believe, on Reddit, which I rarely use, but there's a lot going on there, man.

BW:  Yeah a lot of people are using Reddit these days for sure.

SW: What else would you like to share? never know exactly who's listening. I don't know where they are. I don't know why they're listening, but they're out there. So yeah, sort of open-ended what you want to share with the world, or at least the world on this podcast.

BW: It's already been stressed a lot of times, but I'm going to stress it again, just having a support network, just having people that will be there for you. And hey, like even it might be hard for you if you're the one that's sort of suffering. But be that person that goes out of their way to sort of, you know, check in on others and support them or just give them that compliment. You know, it's just very simple stuff that you can do.

SW: Yeah. 

BW: Every day. I think it literally did save me a couple of times at school when I was facing a lot of issues. This friend of mine that I talked about, he definitely was there regardless if he knew or not about the troubles I was facing. He was just there. And that was something that was so powerful to me. And, I think we can all sort of do that. It doesn't take too much effort or time. It's just checking in on people. I think definitely having at least one person, you know, one person in the entire world, at least that you can go to, it just makes a monumental difference. Yeah. Definitely. 

SW: Yeah. It sounds maybe for some cliche or corny even, but it's so true. I appreciate the fact that you reached out and then also that you came on and you especially given that it's rather recent about it and didn't really hold back, which I do think when people hear this stuff that makes a difference. So thank you for that.

BW: Yeah, I think definitely it is recent, sort of this, it was sort of a way for me to process what had happened. Yeah. Cause obviously even though, you know, I'm opening up to people a lot more, it's still quite, I'm still quite wary to disclose this amount of information to people. 

SW: Yeah. 

BW: And you know, doing this, I think will help me, but also help other people I think that might be in that same situation, yeah, definitely.

SW: Cool, yeah, I agree. Before we go, I genuinely wanna thank you again. What is one thing, you had mentioned a couple of things you like to do when you were in school, some hobbies, or I think you used the word hobbies, but what is one thing that brings you joy?

BW: It sounds so simple, literally just having those times where you hang out with your friends. I think I might be someone that places a bit too much emphasis on sort of social connection, but honestly, it's what makes me feel, feel, feel the best about myself. So that's definitely what I enjoy. And that's, you know, part of the reason I want to go start teaching is that you get that sort of feedback loop where you're, you know, you're constantly working to, I wouldn't say improve other people's lives. That might be a bit too much, but, you know, at least being that teacher where, you know, the student can walk in and not feel like they're going to be attacked or just have a bad day. 

SW: So agreed. All right. So I do hope, I never had to really close these things, but I do genuinely appreciate you coming on and sharing and do hope that you're okay. I know for me, I've dealt with mental health stuff for years and I sometimes, I don't want to say this to people, but I want to, I feel like saying just because I kind of got through that thing, it doesn't mean everything's okay. And so, I just hope that you get through shit. You know, just be really frank about it. I just get in a way that doesn't suck and maybe even gets better, you know?

BW:  Yeah, yeah, definitely for sure. Yeah, because that's one of the things that I touched on. It's not a linear improvement, but I think, like slowly, even if it's extremely slow, I feel like you can get there eventually to a point where you're sort of, you know, happy with yourself to a certain degree.

SW: All we can do is try man, we can try.

BW: Yeah, for sure. And obviously I'm still, I do acknowledge that I'm quite young. So I've heard some of the people in their fifties sort of talk about it and they seem quite in tune, I think with their emotions and their mindset. 

SW: Yeah, age is part of it. Everyone's got their own thing going, you learn man. By the way, I didn't ask you when we hopped on the call. Are you in Perth or in that general region?

BW:  I'm in Perth, yeah.

SW: I gotta check Perth out sometime. I've been fortunate enough to do some traveling and am curious about it.

BW:  Yeah, I mean, we've been pretty much unaffected by COVID. It's, yeah, life here has been relatively normal for the past months. Yeah so sometimes living here, you tend to forget that the rest of the world is sort of, a lot of the rest of the world is definitely struggling a lot in terms of COVID.

SW: Yeah, it's been actually I don't know how to describe it here, but it's really weird because it's not only COVID, but the whole political thing is just bizarre. So we've got a lot of moving parts and it's yeah, is what it is.

BW: Yeah, sure.

SW: All right, Ben, I'll follow up with you and thanks again for coming on and talking and being honest and open.

BW: All good no yeah thank you for having me on and all that and yeah.

SW: Be well and take care.

BW: Yep, cheers you too. Bye.

SW: As always, thanks so much for listening and special thanks to Ben out in Perth, Australia. You can follow us on social media at SuicideNoted and you can also check out our YouTube channel if video is your thing. If you're a suicide attempt survivor and you'd like to talk, please reach out. Hello@suicidenoted.com  And if you like the art and craft of storytelling, I've got a new podcast, it's called Grit: True stories that matter we just released our first episode, so check that out if you want. Until we connect again, stay strong, do the very best you can. I'll talk to you soon.