September 7, 2020 

SW = Sean Wellington, AS = Ashleigh in South Africa

AS: Something like attempting to take your own life is, it's quite a big deal. And I think that I'm still here to tell the story and that in itself should be spoken about because if they feel shame around it, there has been research done that shame dies in exposure.

SW: Hey there, my name is Sean and this is Suicide Noted. On this podcast, I talk with suicide attempt survivors so that we can hear their stories. Every year around the world, millions of people try to take their own lives and we almost never talk about it. And when we do talk about it, most of us are not very good at it and that includes me. One of my goals with this podcast is to have more conversations and hopefully better conversations with suicide attempt survivors. Now we are talking about suicide, this may not be a good fit for everyone. Please take that into account before you listen. I do hope you listen because there is so much to learn. If you like this podcast, you're learning from this podcast and you'd like to help us out, please keep doing what you're doing by listening, letting people know about it. You can rate it, review it, and subscribe. All of these things help more people in more places find the podcast. Places like Bangladesh and Turkey and El Salvador and Slovakia. We have had listeners in these places and I'm hoping more people from around the world can hear these stories of survival. Now if you are a suicide attempt survivor and you'd like to share your story, I'd love to talk. You can email us at hello@suicidenoted.com. Today I'm talking with Ashleigh. Ashleigh lives in Johannesburg, South Africa and she is a suicide attempt survivor. Hi Ashleigh.

AS: Hey.

SW: Hey, how you doing?

AS: Yeah, I'm good. How you doing?

SW: I'm doing, I'm doing all right. I've told anybody I've spoken to about this podcast and then guests. I'm like, the podcast is helping me stay okay. Talking about this stuff. I don't really talk much about me. I'm happy to, but just the project, you know, hearing people keep it real.

AS: It is, it's good work that you're doing. I think it helps people, you know. I think it does help to hear stories, you know.

SW: I’m trying. I think it's definitely more helpful than harmful. So that's a positive, right?

AS: Right. Right.

SW: Most things I am, I don't know shit about. I'm just like, ask a few good questions and shut up. Where are you by the way, Ashley? Are you down in South Africa?

AS: I'm in Johannesburg in South Africa.

SW: Is that where you're from? So you grew up there, that's your world.

AS: That's my place. This is where I'm at.

SW: And are you an artist? I'm just kind of looking at what's behind you.

AS: Yeah, I'm a ceramic artist, so I work with clay. And that's what I do. I teach classes. I also make for galleries and that sort of jazz.

SW: Look, sounds cool. For those, anyone listening, Ashley's got some cool tattoos on her arm. I like them. Can you read what one of them says or some part of it?

AS: Well, one of the things that I've got, which somebody reminded me the other day, which I mean, it's ridiculous that I've got it tattooed on my arm and I forgot it, you know, is the serenity prayer. Do you know the serenity prayer? Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can and the wisdom to know the difference. And I mean, you know, this whole, the shambles that the planet is in at the moment, it's just, it's really affecting me. I'm finding myself in...in a really rough storm, stormy seas, you know? And I just, and somebody said to me, look at your tattoo, remind yourself of this, you know?

SW: Like that's one of the reasons you probably got it, right? So that it's a reminder.

AS: Right.

SW: Does that prayer help you?

AS: Sure, it really does. It really does. It just helps me put things into perspective, even if it's for a moment, you know? Like I breathe and breathe it and feel it and even if it's just for a moment, that's cool. That one moment is there, you know, it's good.

SW: Yeah. It's that moment of awareness. Even if it just lasts a bit, it's something.

AS: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

SW: Yeah. You know, I, you found me or the podcast through a post that I created, right? And you, responded and we're connecting that way. I'm trying things. There's a question here, but more of like a comment first. It's not easy to find people who have attempted to take their own life are still here and are willing and open to talk about it. They're out there, but there's not a ton of them. So it's an interesting project for me and… how do I reach people and how do I get them, not get them, because if you're not wanting to talk. My goal here isn't to persuade anybody to do something. But so I'm curious, you saw that and you wrote something, we connected and you agreed to talk. You're in the minority, I think. Why do you think that is, that you're okay about talking about it?

AS: I don't know, because it's strange for me that I'm in the minority. I think that something like attempting to take your own life is, it's quite a big deal. And I think that I'm still here to tell the story and that in itself should be spoken about, you know? I think that It's interesting that people don't want to talk about it because if they feel shame around it, there has been research done that that shame dies in exposure. And so if we expose ourselves in a safe space, obviously that we can deal with that shame, you know? So I don't know why people don't want to talk about it. I find it also interesting. It's very tricky thing because maybe they haven't come to terms with it. Maybe they... I don't know. I don't know.

SW: I don't know. It's a question that doesn't really need an answer, but I love talking about it and just exploring it. You have come to terms with your attempt?

AS: So I've had two attempts. Um, I had one attempt in 91. So I'm bipolar and my first attempt was in 1991 when I took an overdose of painkillers. They come in tubs of, of 90 and I drank all 90 of them. And, um, and it wasn't as if I had, I was depressed and I kind of, it built up to taking my own life. It was just one day I just decided this is it, I'm out of here. I'm done with this. I'm sick of this shit. And I went to the pharmacy and I just did it very matter of factly. Went home, put on Pink Floyd, drank all the tablets, didn't leave…

SW: I'm laughing not at, you know I'm not laughing at what you're sharing, but just this thing about Pink Floyd, I love Pink Floyd.

AS: I know! That's funny.

SW: So you're saying it was impulsive and I think, wow. So, and I'm not bipolar, right? So I don't know at all what that world is like. People have shared with me what it's like as best they can. Is it impulsive or was it building and that was a particularly shitty day or maybe something related to some chemical imbalance that you just flipped the fuck out? Like what was going on then? Do you remember?

AS: I think it was because I hadn't been diagnosed yet. So that was when my diagnosis happened after that. And I think I was treading on very thin ice at that point. I mean, I was moody and I was anorexic and I was just, I was a bit of a fuck up. I mean, I was in art school and I wasn't really, just stuff wasn't really working out in some aspects, I suppose. And yeah, I just, it was almost like a switch flipped, you know. And my housemates found me and I woke up in the hospital the next day. I had liver liver damage and..

SW: From that or were you doing other things that contributed to liver…

AS: From the overdose, yeah.

SW: Wow. And you were at home and your roommates saw you and helped and brought you to the hospital? Wow. How was that? The hospital and waking up after at least for a little period of time in your life, not wanting to be alive.

AS: No, I was so pissed off!

SW: At who?

AS: At the fact that I was still alive.

SW: Oh really?

AS: Yeah, I was, I was angry.

SW: You wanted out legit.

AS: Man, I was so angry that this hadn't worked and that I was back here. I was like, I was adamant that this was, I was out of here, you know? And so, yeah, I had to be transferred up to Johannesburg. I was in the Cape at art school and my mother was in Johannesburg. So I got transferred to the hospital in Johannesburg and that's where I ended up in a psychiatric ward for four months. Yeah, well, I mean, it was, it was a long ride, but eventually they did electroconvulsive shock treatments to get me right. Cause I was just so, um, I was, I was just so far gone. I mean, I was just, I was really depressed by then. It was almost as though the, the attempted suicide failing threw me into depression. And so, yeah, it was a rocky road to get back on track and find the right meds.

SW: I can't imagine. Because you don't try to end your life unless there's some... I hesitate to even complete that sentence, but things aren't going well. And then you're compounding it with what you just said of like, fuck, I didn't want to be here, now I'm here, now I'm pissed about that. And then there's meds and there's hospitalization and it's like...You can’t see me because, this is a podcast, my hands are going up trying to suggest, Ashleigh can see me like, it's just like, you know, getting more and more and more and more.

AS: It was a pretty, it was a mess. I mean, friends would come and visit and there was one particular friend of mine who would visit me in the ward. And when he left, my mother bumped into him in the parking lot and he was just sitting there in tears, you know, because his friend was so far gone. You know, it was just like, I wasn't there. It was a shell, you know. So it was messy. But the shock treatment did, there was a turning point that really worked.

SW: The ECT?

AS: Yeah yeah. 

SW: That did more…some people don't, they think it's harmful. Depends, I guess, on a case by case, but that was better for you than not. Right. It sounds like.

AS: Better, better than not. then that's the thing with all the psychiatric stuff is that it's just so individual, you know.

SW: Yeah. So you felt a little better and then you came out.

AS: Yeah. And then I came out and I, I was in intensive psychotherapy and, obviously with a psychiatrist working very closely with them as well with my medications. And I started pottery as a therapy and then eventually did an apprenticeship with a potter. And then that just ended up being my, my work. Yeah.

SW: That's amazing. Now, this podcast is not about me, but I would like to share a very brief anecdote about my experience with pottery. 

AS: Yes of course.

SW: I think there's something called the wheel. Now I'm in New York, I'm from New York. And I have a lot of energy and I'm sort of impulsive and you you know the types probably. But I took a class nearby and I think it was the teacher was really cute was like the main reason but but I was like, you know, pottery looks cool. It's another thing to try. You never know. And I would say within about seven minutes. I was like punching the clay because I couldn't get the fucking clay to do anything I wanted. Not like and people around me were also beginners and they were struggling. But, you know, they were like, you know, the hand movements, right? Yeah. I was just, no patience. And so that didn't last long. I didn't pass the class or two. So kudos to you or anyone who can just sit through that and then make shit. Nice shit from it is my point.

AS: Yeah, it teaches you patience big time. Yeah. Yeah. I think you need to go back, revisit that. Don't you think?

SW: I think you might be right. So how did that help you?

AS: So that was just, I mean, it was, at first it was, it was just therapy. And then I took it on and it's become my sort of  a mainstay. I do, it keeps me even keeled and it's, if I can't work for some reason that I'm going through something and I'm not able to work, it's a good gauge for me that something's not quite right. Yeah, so it's a good teacher in a way.

SW: And like a tangible gauge, not, you know, like as opposed to our thoughts can be sort of…

AS:  Absolutely, it's very tangible. Yeah. Yeah.

SW:  And you'd said that, I'm happy to not just talk about attempts. Like I want to hear the whole story. But you, you, you attempted suicide you said in 91 and then it wasn't, but then so things are going and then something else happens?

AS: So this was more recent last year. I started having anxiety attacks and I ended up in an emergency room and they took me through to a hospital that wasn't where my normal psychiatrist is. And I was in such a state that I just went with them. And I got admitted and, this new psychiatrist just sort of decided to take me off my medication and put me on a whole lot of new medication. And I was like, okay, well, let's see where this goes, which is such a stupid thing to do. Anyway, my proper psychiatrist was away anyway. So I thought, okay, let's go with this. And it ended up, long story short, it was, it, was an absolute fuck up. And I ended up getting psychosis.

SW: Tell me or whoever's listening what, what that means for you. What does that mean?

AS: Kind of you kind of lose touch with reality but you also end up obsessing over stuff. Obsessive thoughts would come in,  just obsessing over whether or not I had done something at the studio and then driving back there at 2 a.m. in the morning to check that I've done it and you know just stuff that's just really not in reality.

SW: Right. So the anxiety and then change of meds psychosis.

AS: Hmm. And all also just unable to go to the shops. I can't walk into the shops and not literally don't know why I'm there. I know I've got to do a shop. I've got the list, but I can't physically can't do it. It just, you just can't do it and, and end up feeling like you're going to pass out and stuff like that.

SW: Wow.

AS: Just really losing touch with reality, you know? And so I couldn't take it anymore. I was a mess and I decided that I wanted out. And I thought, okay, I'm gonna, live in a loft apartment and there's a mezzanine floor. And I got my hairdryer and I made a noose and I hung myself.

And I woke up on the floor with the cord snapped and a very sore back. So I don't know what happened. I lost consciousness, but the thing snapped and there I was and it was like, oh fuck, I can't even hang myself properly, you know.

SW: You beat yourself up over doing that and it not working as well.

AS: Yeah. I mean, crazy, really crazy. A couple of days went by and I, and I was still in this state and every time I thought about ending my life, I felt calm. So it ended up with me thinking and planning it again. And my youngest son lives with me and I knew that he was going to his father's house for the night and this was a good opportunity I could do this. So I went off to the hardware and I bought some proper rope and made a noose, he had gone. And it was the longest night of my life. Looking back now, I just think how, I realized how sick I was. I mean, I was really, really sick. It was, I don't know who that person was. Really, really, as though another person had taken over my body when I look back now. And it's all brain chemicals.

SW: Yeah.

AS: So I made the noose and I got it ready and I was measuring it in the chair and putting it on around my neck and then getting down and writing. Then I wrote notes to both my sons. And to their dad and to my ex-sister-in-law. So I wrote all these notes the whole night. I was awake the whole night going backwards and forwards to the noose and then writing and to the noose and writing. Putting it on my neck. I mean, it was, it was crazy. Ended up trying to do it. And just as I was losing consciousness, I realized I couldn't, my son was going to find me like this. He's the only one that has keys to the house, you know.

SW: How old is he?

AS: He's 19. And I stopped and I just, I took it down and I had these burn marks all over my neck that were, I had to walk around in the summer with scarves on for like two weeks.

SW: Yeah.

AS: I ended up having to go and stay with a friend of mine for about three weeks. The doctor put me onto some heavy medication that basically knocked me out and try and realign my brain chemicals.

SW: Did that help?

AS: Only until I got back onto lithium I was okay again.

SW: Lithium has been helpful for you.

AS: Yeah. 

SW: Good. So in those 28 or whatever years they were between attempts, right? 91 to... Was your... This is a tricky question. Just because you didn't attempt doesn't mean your life was flowing beautifully. But was it okay? Even there were moments of life is good? Life is decent?

AS: Well, have, I know you also said that you have, I have suicidal ideation. Big time. Big time. I don't know, I don't know what it is. I'm not quite, I'm not quite okay with being here. There's parts of me that just don't want to be involved in this. It's, I feel like I could do without it sometimes.

And often I'll be driving on the freeway and I think, I wonder what would happen if I just swerved into the other side.

SW: Yeah.

AS:  And over bridges and that sort of thing. So I do this, that goes on in my mind and it's not that I'm going to do it, you know, other than the two attempts that I did. But I do, there's been, I mean, when I got divorced, it was a rough time and my mother died and I thought I was going to lose the plot. I managed to keep it into the center.

SW: For our American viewers, what does ‘lose the plot mean?’

AS: Don't you use that?

SW: Not really, but you know what, with television being more universal now with things like Netflix, I think more people know what it means. We don't say lose the plot here.

AS: Yeah, lose  your mind. It's such a common phrase here.

SW: Yeah. So you had said something about the idea… Man, sometimes it's hard for me to ask questions because I have so many things that I could ask about because it's so, it's very interesting to me. You had said something I particularly connect to, which is, it calmed you. It calmed you when you thought, that the planning of it. Right. Is that what you said? The planning of it was calming?

AS: Yeah, yeah. So much so that it was like elating. It was the first time that I'd feel happy about something. Like, okay, I can do this sort of, you know. I can get through the next 24 hours because I know tomorrow night I'm going to be doing this.

SW: Yeah, that makes sense to me. Maybe not everyone, but I'm sure some people. In that time, you at least met one person because you have a child or two children, right? Yeah. So that to me, when I hear that, I always think, and I don't want to put words in your mouth, but by all means, tell me if I'm way off. Ashley was doing something. She attracted another human being and they had a child, two children. Like something's working, something.

AS: Yeah. No, listen, a lot of stuff works in my life. I mean, I'm blessed. I've got an amazing life. Amazing. It's like, and people do, they get really surprised and horrified when I tell them about where I've been, you know? Like, no way, it's not you, you know?

SW: Horrified is an interesting word, yeah. Horrified.

AS: Horrified. It just doesn't come into their, they can't even imagine that I would be doing something like that.

SW: Not you, they say, right? Well, then who? Who do you think is doing this shit? I mean, not to suggest that like Ashley's the only, like most people who have tried that, what do you think they look or act like?

AS: Yeah, is there a box we can put them in? Yeah, yeah, it is bizarre.

SW: That's so bizarre. I'm imagining, and I have to get better at this, your responses to people like that are probably better than mine. I think you're like a child. You see the world like a seven year old. Now that's unfair of me, but if you're thinking would this person who was in pain, try to end their life and that you can't imagine, it's like either you're a child or I'm a dick or we're operating in such different little worlds that I'm having a hard time connecting.

AS: I think the horror is coming more from a place of how much do I ask here? 

SW: How much do I ask about this?

AS: I think it's coming from, I don't think it's coming from a place of you, really you, would you, how would you be doing something like that? It's more of a place like, oh my God, this woman, how much can I ask her or how much is she able to speak about this? And so I always allow that space so that people can, if they want to talk, ask me questions. I'm really happy to speak to them about it. Because you never know. You never fucking know where they are at.

SW: Yeah, yeah. Right. No, you're right. And I need to get better at that. I agree with you 100%. What percentage or how often when someone learns of this, do they inquire?

AS: 80 to 90?

SW: Really? Fantastic. Good. So you're creating some space for them and they'll ask a little bit about are they asking questions? Because one question I ask everybody I've talked to is how do other people respond when they learn? You know, and that could be right after they learn and you're still in the hospital and a conversation talking about it from 10 years ago. How do people respond and what do they say that's helpful and maybe harmful? In your experience.

AS: Hmm that's a funny question. I don't know about that. I mean people do…the word horrified comes to mind. Is how people respond in some way. Helpful? I don't know how it would be helpful. I think for me to be able to them where I was at or where I was coming from is helpful for me. It's part of my healing and it will be ongoing. I don't think I'll ever totally heal from what I've done.

SW: Yeah. And it's tricky because when you, when it's 28 years, and if I ask you, do you think you'll do it again? It's like, it's a tricky one, isn't it?

AS: Yeah, I can't say no. Because I don't know, I've got an unreliable mind.

SW: Yeah. And the meds and other things you're doing, your work, make it okay enough where you're like, we get through the day.

AS: Yeah, I'm doing it. I'm doing it. I'm doing what I have to do. I'm taking my meds. I'm meditating. I'm, you know, seeing my friends. I'm doing all that I can do on a daily basis to keep me even-keeled, you know? But I never know when that next episode is going to hit. Bipolar is not a nice illness to live with. But it can be managed. That's the most important thing.

SW: I was just thinking when you had shared earlier that just before you were apparently correctly diagnosed with bipolar is when you first tried. And I wonder how many people we have lost because just before they were correctly diagnosed and hopefully treated, they were gone.

AS: Too many, way too many. And even those that have been diagnosed but aren't on the right meds, know? So too often, I mean, I know two people that are, you know, that have done that and it's just because their meds weren't okay and they just couldn't do it anymore. 

SW: Did they die? 

AS: Yeah.Both of them. But then there's that thing as well, like now I'm just feeling this and thinking, sometimes I think … when I do speak to people and they do kind of want to hear about it, but it's quite a depressing conversation to have, you know?

SW: I get that. It isn't for me, but I guess most people don't have podcasts about suicide. So I'm the guy where I don't think that's the word I would use. I get a little..no, no, but you can for sure. And I think you're right. A lot of people do think this is dark. This is depressing. I think for me, it's not that it's not those things. And I want to talk about it. They are those things. And great.

AS: Give it to me. Yeah.

SW: If you're around people that are talking about it, I don't know if this happens for you in your life. Is that hard or are you like, no, I want…Like I'm down to talk about that.

AS: Yeah, I mean, I'll obviously just gauge where we are, I mean, where it is and who's around and what's the mood and stuff. I'm not going to go start talking about my attempts when, we have a big party or something, unless we're sitting in a corner and someone wants to know about it. It can be bordering on slightly morbid, you know.

SW: Of course. 100 % yes, by definition, I believe. Literally what morbid is. What do you think is at least like, what's a myth? A myth around and that could be suicide or specifically around attempt survivors recovery.

AS: You know that thing of, of when… my first attempt when I was in the hospital and my mother arrived and the doctors were there and they were discussing about sending me up to Johannesburg hospital. And he said, he looked, I'm sitting right there. And he says to my mother, you know, this is just attention seeking and a cry for help. And I was like, are you fucking kidding me? So for me, that is...that whole thing of attempted suicide being a... Yes, of course it's a cry for help. I mean, you are, you're in a bad way, but it's not attention seeking. I don't know how to make a disparity between the two, but do you know what I'm trying to say?

SW: I think I do. I think I do. Sometimes I think we're limited by words, right? So yes, of course, it's a cry for help in some ways, right? Like, there might be people out there, maybe more younger people, but I don't know that. It's so weird to me. Here's my thoughts. Now I'm going shut up. I want to hear more about you. There's a lot of things you can do short of trying to end your life for attention. Really? You're going to OD on 90 pills for attention? Like it's just a bizarre thing to say. The other thing, and this is sort of a bit of a tangent, is if you're talking, I always wonder when someone says they're looking for attention, I want to say, well, I don't know if they're looking for attention, but, mom, are you giving your child attention by the way?

AS: Listen, for sure.

SW: It may not be anything to do with it, but are you... ...your child's life? Are you...supportive?

AS: Yeah, listen, there's always back sides to stories and always, always there's something, something to be said about someone's behavior and why are they doing it. But to just put a attempted suicide down to a cry for help or attention seeking, that's, that's a myth that I feel needs to be dispelled. It's like how…that's bullshit.

SW: That's bullshit. And you're in the hospital and he's saying it to your mom. So what is it? Are you incredulous or you like, how do you, don't know if you're super conscious at the moment, like how are you feeling?

AS: No, just, I wasn't, I wasn't very reactive to anything. I mean, I was a zombie, really.

SW: I wonder if like in the early nineties, which shouldn't be that long ago, but it kind of is now. 

AS: It feels like so long ago.

SW: Maybe we've gotten a little bit retreating and when I say we, I mean, it could be anybody but the medical community. They understand a little better now. And perhaps the language around it would be a little different. Yeah.

AS: I'm hoping so. I really am. Because I was, listen, I was a 19 year old, 20 year old art student and maybe the doctor had had a bad day or was having problems with his whatever, you know. And he's pissed off with this young girl who's like taken all these pills and he had to pump her stomach for hours. You know, maybe that's what it was about. I don't know. But I just get angry when they say it's attention seeking you know. Yeah.

SW: Well, just for what it's worth, you're a doctor and you're getting angry at patients for pumping their stomachs, you shouldn't be a doctor. That's just Sean's words, not yours. You're in the wrong fucking field and you're a criminal. Get out of the job.

AS: Go find something else to do.

SW: Do something else. You're not in the right line of work ever, period. We're done talking. But hey, that's an interesting, I'm glad you shared that. It sucks that you had to share that or that it's something that is happening. But yeah, I hear that with others, other people too. They say that it's this bullshit.

AS: It's also when like when I was also a cutter, to cut myself and that whole thing of well she's just looking for attention and it had fuck all to do with attention it was about feeling.

SW: Is that why you cut?

AS: Yeah. And it was around the same time. It was when I was just so like, you know, I was numb to everything. So I would cut myself to try and feel something. It had nothing to... And I would cut in places that no one could see. I wasn't wanting people to see it.

SW: Clearly not attention seeking. Though very much red flags. You had a few. Red flags. Hello? Wow. How often do you talk about this? Again, I know that there aren't a lot of spaces where you would just talk about it, but does it come up sometimes in your life?

AS: Yeah, it does. I mean, I teach poetry classes and so sometimes stuff comes up there when people are talking about certain things or depression or people know someone that someone's done this and something, you know, comes across like that. Yeah, there a lot of mental health issues flying around.

SW: Do you think it's getting worse because of the pandemic and lockdown stuff?  I don't have any data. I imagine it's worse.

AS: I do think it's worse. I also don't have data, but I do think that, actually I read somewhere, I don't know if it's true, but they said that suicide is up 200%.

SW: I'm not surprised. Would you say it was frightening?

AS: Yeah.

SW: And said, yeah, and I'm not surprised. We don't fucking do much for people who are ill. Either way, we're failing people, right?

AS: We are failing people because when you're pushed  to that sort of extent, there's definitely a failure. Definitely a failure. And I mean, the amount of children that are attempting suicide and making it work is astronomical just because of the way that they can't socialize. Their marks, have to get ridiculous amounts of high marks and fucking hell, man.

SW: Right. We're just so off on what matters.

AS: Exactly it's nuts. It's like we're living in a big loony bin.

SW: Right. You're at, you're almost saying like, here, we're like, come into this little thing here and you're probably going to be miserable. And yeah, some of those people are just going to be like, I'm out.

AS: I hear often about people taking their own lives because they're in financial problems.

SW: You know, situational or external. I, that's what I wonder about. Like there's people who deal with major trauma and they never think about ending their lives and other people do. And I wonder, is it situational or is it a little bit like, what do you think?

AS: But if both maybe. I do think that we need to, I mean, my dream would be for governments to, instead of spending the money that they spend on arms deals and fucking war stuff, and put that money into mental health issues, I mean, you know, the world would be a better place. Half the people that are on the street have mental health issues.

SW: I would imagine if, yeah, at least, yeah.

AS: And they can't get help.

SW: And there's a lot of people that don't necessarily have mental health issues, however ones defining that. But once they're spending some time on the street, that shit is.

AS: It can spark it all.

SW: I can go by what I've seen in my life. I've lived abroad, but the majority has been in the US and New York. I'm in North Carolina now. I've never seen it where it's kind of okay to be homeless and your life is pretty good. 

AS: Nah. What did your friend, you said that your friend... When was that?

SW: 97. Yeah, I had been living abroad. I was teaching in Japan, so I don't know some of the stuff and sort of the spiral. You know, in hindsight, I could put it together a little bit, but it came as quite a surprise shock. Yeah. Then that's a conversation not only around suicide, but in part also around guns. And, you know, if you had a gun, you'd be dead. Probably you had a rope and pills. They don't work as well.

AS: Wow. No, if I had a gun I'd be dead long ago.

SW: Yeah. So guns are like this weird thing where they're really deadly.

AS: Very much so. They're bad news.

SW: And in the US they're pretty easy to get. 

AS: You can go buy them at the supermarket.

SW: I don't know  but yeah, I don't know. Certainly like some of the big box stores. But either way, he was a cop. I mean, cops in most places have guns. So that's sort of its own thing, you know?

AS: Yeah, that's very sad.

SW: It is sad. It's awful. What would you say, if anything, to people who are in that kind of pain and are contemplating suicide? I don't want to, I hesitate to ask that, I will ask that but because I don't want to assume like suicide attempt survivors or people on that path are the same. They're not. But are there words that you could share with them that might.

AS: Yeah, the only thing I can say is to hold on. I think that's the only thing I can say. It's like… I've got another tattoo that says...

SW: We're back to the tattoos. I love it. Is it [inaudible] song? Here we go.

AS: It says impermanence. And it is a good one. And I think we all need to remind ourselves of that, that things are so transient, you know? And that time that you go through goes, it comes and it goes. Like for me, it comes and it goes. And just hold on. Like it might not be okay tomorrow, but maybe next week it'll be okay. You know? Hold on.

SW: I like that.

AS: Like where you are right now is not where it's going to be forever. And it's not.

SW: Right.

AS: And when you're happy and things are fantastic, it's not going to be like that either forever, you know?

SW: Yeah. But we sure try to chase that shit, don't we? Hold on to it. I want to be happy. I want to feel good. You know, I do it. That's why I have that third scotch instead of stopping. And I know I'm going to,  I want to feel good and I'm feeling good. I have some more. Nope, don't do that. Yeah, I'm fine. Don't worry about it. How do I feel? Not so good.

AS: Yeah, I'm very grateful that I haven't had a drink since 2012.

SW: When you said the serenity prayer, I was assuming you're in a 12 step program at some point.

AS: Yeah, I was in rehab for two months. I was on the booze and benzos, benzodiazepines, the Valiums and those. Yeah.

SW: That can be very dangerous, right? 

AS: Yeah.

SW:  Alot of downers going on there.

AS: Unbelievable, I mean really. That thing of numbing, escaping, that's my thing. I mean if I had to try heroin, I would be finished.

SW: Done. 100%. I say that all the time. So happy no one ever offered me heroin. Gone. People that know me were like, dude, don't ever go near heroin. You're fucked if you go near heroin. you're... Like, some people can cut off of it and work it out and maybe get better. Not you, Sean. No way, dude. Don't go near heroin. And I haven't. Because I'd be done.

AS: Good, well done man, well done. But you seem very upbeat.

SW: coffee.

AS: I would think that you would like Coke.

SW: Love Coke. But I’d love heroin too. I love drugs. But I don’t to them because they're dangerous. it's so simple to me. I do something like that. And like so for you, when you were doing like drinking in the Benzos, you feel better, at least for a little bit, right? 

AS: Yeah

SW: It's so not complicated. Why do people do that? One reason is they just feel better. It's just so simple.

AS: Until you're having a vodka and banana smoothie for breakfast. Right. And four Valium, just to get the day started.

SW: Right, I've never been close to that. So yeah, I wouldn't pretend to know what that feels like. And I've never had anything where I was really physically dependent and had a withdrawal where it's actually not about feeling good. It's about not feeling like in a lot of pain. And you can get that from alcohol. You can get that from…

AS: Yeah, any withdraws are not nice.

SW: Right, yeah. But like Benzo withdrawals can be really, really brutal. And I'm sure, you know.

AS: The doctor had to actually put me on when I went into rehab. I don't remember getting, I don't remember going there. And, he had to actually put me onto another medication to take me off the benzos. Cause he said, if I had taken you cold turkey off the benzos, you would have had a cardiac arrest.

SW: Wow. So how long have you been not doing any, not drinking or any drugs outside of your prescribed medication?

AS: 1st of January 2012.

SW: Wow. So that's great. That's seriously like eight plus years.

AS: Yeah, it's good. It's good.

SW: Do you feel like ever doing it and you just don't or you don't feel like it?

AS: I don't feel like doing it, although during this lockdown I felt like a drink every now and then and I'm not sure what it's about. But I go out and I'm an avid live music person and I go out for good, good jols, good parties and stuff. And I don't miss drinking at all. And everyone knows that I'm not drinking when the last person standing is still having a blast.

SW: Is that right?

AS: I don't think I'd go back. mean, don't feel like I would, because I know if I had another drink, it would be down a slippery slope.

SW: Yeah, there's only so many chances you get, right?  So if you're talking to people out there who hear this, they don't necessarily the ones who are in pain in terms of like, might end my life or I have tried. There are people who are in some kind of position of support. Who might, their words or actions matter, and maybe they don't know what to do or say. What would you say, if anything, to that group of people?

AS: I think it's just about being there. I don't think there's anything that's...There's nothing, it's not like solving a problem. So you're not problem solving, you know, it's just being a presence. I really find that when I'm not doing well, it's a presence of my friends is just perfect. I don't need anything more than that, you know? So that's the only thing I would say is, just to be there and make a cup of tea for somebody and take some food over, you know? It's that sort of thing. Like the small things really, really count. Because when you're in that space, you're so full of self-loathing that you don't really look after yourself. I mean, well, I don't anyway. I end up not showering and bathing and don't eat properly and my poor son ends up having to do everything and you know. So from that point of view, if somebody had to bring, well, if they do, bring over a meal or… bring over a packet of chips or, you know, yeah. Yeah.

SW: Just the fact that they're remembering or give a shit.

AS: Just being there, yeah. Even just a phone call, you know, and it's not about, well, have you spoken to your doctor? What is this, this, this? Have you done this? Have you done that? That's bullshit. Don't do that stuff, man. It's, it's, it's, what's the word…It's counterproductive.

SW: I bet your boys are happy that you're still around.

AS: Yeah, they are. They are. I mean, they really are.

SW: And your dog.

AS: My cat.

SW: Oh your cat?  What the hell is going on in South Africa that your cats look like dogs….

AS: No, it was a dog on the table!

SW: Well that's just how we roll here in America.

AS: That's my cat, the apple of my eye.

SW: And your boys are a, they're part of your life?

AS: Yeah, my boys live, well my youngest boy lives with me, Liam. And you see I've got their names tattooed on my arm just in case I forget. Luke and Liam.

SW: Okay.

AS: So Luke is down in the Cape at University. He's 23. And Liam is up here with me. He's 19 and he's gonna start studying next year. He's just finished school last year. So he had to deal with all of that last year with me.

SW: Luke and Liam are in school. They are on your arm. The word impermanence is on your arm somewhere. the Serenity Prayer. Can you, before we, before we say goodbye to one another, would you share this serenity prayer with our audience?

AS: : Yeah, for sure.

Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. 

It's very powerful. You know, stop fighting. It's kind of like, you know, there's some things you just can't change.

SW: Good words to try to live by, I suppose. Try your best.

AS: I was actually brought up with them. My father was a big shot in Alcoholics Anonymous. So he had them, you know, all the time would say them and have little placards of them around the house. And then I took no notice of them quite clearly.

SW: Zero notice, clearly.

AS: I spent some of my childhood sleeping under chairs at AA meetings. Look where that got me.

SW: Man, if that's not a movie.

AS: Isn’t that funny, yeah?

SW: Not the first word that came to mind, but yep, it's pretty funny. It's pretty interesting for sure. So yeah, and you've been so kind and so gracious and open. I really appreciate it.

AS: It's a pleasure. Absolute pleasure. Thank you.

SW: Of course. I hope people that hear it get something from it.

AS: Yeah, I think so. It can only help.

SW: I think so, I hope so. What's something that you're gonna do today that brings you a little joy?

AS:  Well, it's seven o'clock in the evening here.

SW: Okay, so maybe what you did today, if anything, if there's something.

AS: What did I do today? I went and visited my friend and sat in her very beautiful garden and watched the birds. It was fantastic. Yeah. It was really lovely.

SW: That is cool. Is there any pottery right within reach that you could show me?

AS: Well, this cup is one of mine.

SW: Wow. This is the worst podcast because nobody can see it. My God, that's gorgeous. And they're like, dude, we can't see it. Why are you teasing us like that? When I get more sophisticated, I work something out sometimes so people, maybe they can see it.

AS: Can I take a photograph of us?

SW: Yes. Wait, let me just, you're gonna use it? I want to brush my hair. Yeah, do whatever you want. That was a pose. That was so inorganic. It was so not natural. Is it okay? If it works for you.

AS: Wait, let me see. Oh no, that's beautiful.

SW: You're the first person who has done two things. You're the first person who took a photo, which is cool. You're the first person who's asked me about my friend. Which I imagine people might either not know or feel like, hey, this podcast, I'm answering the questions, not asking them.

AS: What are you gonna do nice today?

SW: thank you for asking. I swim most days, but it's an outdoor pool because those are the ones that are open now. The indoor ones aren't open, but it's been overcast. So I will go for a walk if I can't swim and do some heavy stretching. Maybe try to play a little piano cause I'm trying to teach myself piano, but it's not …it's slow. Remember what I did to the pottery? Remember what I did to the pottery? There's that. But yeah, so nothing super super fancy, but hopefully and you know, but I'd like to be able to see people a little more, but it's limiting.

AS: Yeah, you guys are locked down there.

SW: Not a hundred percent. Like we can do things. You have to wear a mask everywhere you go. I don't think people are getting arrested if they don't wear their masks, but. And some things are open. You know, some things are open as normal and sort of just got to be careful. And other shit is closed. My gym is closed.

AS: Yeah, the gyms are all closed.

SW: Yeah. So we're all figuring, we're all trying to, but I think you're right. The people whose safety net was already low, this is making it really like, yeah.

AS: scraping the ground.

SW: Right, and if you were insulated with money or friends, you're okay, it's harder. But it's like anything else, right? But if you were like super struggling for most people, it just gets worse.

AS: And there's lots of those people,

SW: Lots. And we don't hear about them because they're in bed all day or they're homeless or you know, you don't hear their stories. That's why I think it's so great when you and others share your stories because there's so many we're never going to hear.

AS: Oh yeah. Yeah.

SW: So cool. All right. Well, I hope you stay safe and stay well and we'll connect soon, I hope.

AS: And you too, Sean. Thank you. Thanks. Have a lovely day.

SW: You too, bye. As always, thank you so much for listening and hearing these stories and these survivors. Special thanks to Ashleigh . If you are a suicide attempt survivor and would like to share your story, please reach out. Hello@SuicideNoted.com Let folks know about this podcast if you would. It really does help us out. If you'd like to rate it, review it, and subscribe, those things help us out too. Until we connect again, stay strong, try the best you can. I'll talk to you soon.