August 13, 2020 

SW = Sean Wellington, AV= April in Virginia

AV: If you are a son, if you are a daughter, if you are a spouse, try to show a little grace. It wasn't a self-centered act. You can be angry, you can be whatever you are, but show just the slightest bit of grace.

SW: Hey there, my name is Sean and this is Suicide Noted. On this podcast, I talk with suicide attempt survivors so that we can hear their stories. Every year around the world, millions of people try to take their own lives and we don't talk much about it. And when we do, most of us are not very good at it and that includes me. So one of my goals with this podcast is to have more conversations and better conversations with attempt survivors. Now we're talking about suicide. This may not be a good fit for everyone, so please take that into account before you listen. But I do hope that you listen because there really is so much to learn. We've been launched for less than a month and I've had listeners in 34 countries, places like Qatar and Indonesia and Finland and Australia. And I'm glad that these stories from these survivors are getting out there and I hope that continues. Today, I am talking with April. April lives in Virginia and she is a suicide attempt survivor. Hey, how are you? 

AV: Good.

SW: Thank you for joining me and also for being flexible with our time.

AV: No problem.

SW: Most people who have a suicide attempt or more than one tend not to talk about it openly. And you wouldn't be here unless you were somewhat open about talking about it. I'm wondering why.

AV: I have one attempt four years ago and it honestly has taken me four years to be willing to talk about it really at all because it's so stigmatizing. It's like I can't imagine anything in life more stigmatizing honestly.

SW: What does that mean?

AV: People judge, people make assumptions. Pretty much everything I've done in my life, my career, my being a mom, my being a friend, pretty much everything is called into question. My mental health takes precedence and makes those other things not maybe...I don't know, not as valuable, not as maybe that it was all like a farce because of that.

SW: All the other stuff that you just mentioned is a farce because of that suicide attempt is like the big thing.

AV: Correct, like I'm a great mom, I'm good at what I do. I'm like, those are not things that I want to be clouded and I don't want to cloud them myself by sharing with people, anyone really about the attempt until very recently.

SW: So what changed?

AV: I think I have seen, I've witnessed other people sharing their stories more often than not inappropriately, but other people sharing their stories and not getting that harsh judgment as much as I would have thought. And that not really ending up being the defining factor in who they are as a person.

SW: Are you comfortable talking about the attempt itself?

AV: Sure. Four years ago, I was living in Sarasota, Florida with my three kids. One was in college at that time and then two were at home still. And I had been really, really, really depressed, really in a low mood, really down, really anxious for, I guess, about a year and it kept just intensifying, intensifying. And then I decided that I was going to research it and was going to make sure I had things in place for my children. I have a special needs child. So I was kind of, I mean, looking back on it, it was ridiculous, but I was putting into place everything so that he would be okay. And I, went to the Sunshine Skyway Bridge in Tampa and jumped. So basically that is what happened and I really had zero, it never crossed my mind that it would not be a completed suicide. So the aftermath never really crossed my mind.

SW: Hmm. But you were wrong.

AV: I was wrong. It was like two and a half weeks later, I woke up in a hospital, in a medical hospital, and then kind of things played out a little bit, what had happened.

SW: There's a guy out in San Francisco, you may be familiar with him, he speaks a lot about suicide, suicide prevention. And he jumped off the Golden Gate Bridge. And one of the things he talks about is when he jumped, he had an immediate sense of regret, immediate. And I'm wondering if you felt that way.

AV: I honestly don't remember. I do remember jumping. I honestly, I do remember the last moments before I did that I was questioning whether or not this indeed was the best decision. But I just felt like it was for my kids. And that's pretty much the last thing I remember.

SW: Yeah. And so what's it like wanting to end your life and then waking up? That must be a very conflicted feeling.

AV: I was confused, honestly, at first, because I had been placed into a medically induced coma. Then when I woke up, I was confused. Like, was I alive? Was I not alive? Why does my body not hurt if I'm in the hospital and like, I have all these tubes coming out? And then kind of

I started to put the pieces together. I couldn't really talk about it. Like I couldn't talk about it with my family and my kids did not come see me. So it  was kind of like I had to do a lot of processing like just kind of in my head or maybe with a nurse sometimes.

SW: Why weren't you able to, you said you couldn't talk?

AV: I mean, I was able to talk. My mom, the first thing my mom said was, I know it was a big mistake and a big misunderstanding, so we can just move on from here. So I mean, she just kind of shut that down before there was really even any chance to explore it. Initially, I I went into a treatment program in Clearwater, Florida once I got out of the regular hospital. And like I talked about it a little bit, not a lot, but a little.

SW: Is that helpful?

AV: It was helpful. I mean, I was in treatment with, I'm a social worker and I guess because I have a pretty acute awareness of people and I don't really want to trigger people and I'm super conscious about that sometimes. And even when I was in treatment, I was reluctant to talk about it because I didn't want to show anyone I didn't want anyone to, I don't know, I guess I didn't want anyone to have that visual. I just didn't, it would have been a good time to share a lot of it. I just was very, I was just aware that it needed to be in my past.

SW: Yeah. So what were the four years like after? You built up your life again, I suppose.

AV: The first year was very rocky. My kids knew. My one son, I don't know that he knew, but he knew something. He knew that I disappeared for a while. To try to answer those questions, how do you answer them? The depression was still there, the anxiety was still there. How do I proceed with that still as part of me, but not take over, I guess, again. So it was lot of figuring out kind of how much to be in the world, how to be in the world, that kind of thing. And then I got to a point where it was kind of another turning point a couple years ago. I guess it'll be two years in November. When I knew that if I was gonna really get better. needed to leave Sarasota. needed to have a way to start over. Just because my mom was in Sarasota, I had friends there who had now defined me by that. As much as I didn't talk about it, as much as I constantly was positive, as much as I did any of that, it still defined me. So I started looking for positions to teach and to do research and I ended up moving to Williamsburg. That has made the biggest difference in my life without a doubt, absolutely without a doubt.

SW: The work you're doing at that school?

AV: Yes, and being able to come here and my daughter was at that point in college and so it was just my one son and I and he doesn't talk about it and so it was on me to decide what how much if I wanted to share anything with anyone and that what I shared would be on my

that made a huge difference because and I am sure when I am in Sarasota when when I was still there that when I would go out that I am sure people weren't really saying that's that's April the one who did this but there what there were whispering there I mean that that was that part partly reality and then my misperception of the reality just made it worse. So when I moved here, I didn't have to worry about that. I could create it for myself.

SW: Mm hmm. Yeah, that makes sense. When you had shared with me about how your mom responded, I think about what others have also shared with me about how people in their lives respond. And I'm always curious to better understand what is either helpful or harmful in the way people respond and engage with you if and when you talk about this.

AV: I've gone through different phases where I have wondered what it had been like if I'd been able to talk about it right in the beginning, if I had been able to be open with my family. But my family, I have a good family, but they're just very closed. They very much...You don't talk about it, just kind of smile and move on. And so it just, I knew it wasn't going to happen. I knew that it wouldn't be heard. I knew that I wouldn't be heard. I knew I would be told it was a mistake and that I didn't need to do it. And I knew that I did need to do it. So I just, didn't want to hear that. I didn't want further to be kind of pushed into a corner. My personality, that was a way better fit to just kind of pretend it didn't happen or to go into a program for depression and anxiety and just kind of move forward. I think that for my personality, that was way better, because I'm not someone to call attention to myself. I'm not someone to talk openly about what's going on.

I'm not closed, but I'm not open. So if I had been just pushed and pushed and pushed with questions, I think that would have caused me to shut down as well.

SW: Sure. Is there a way in which people can engage with you about this where you don't close down?

AV: If I can sense that someone truly is interested in hearing what I have to say and actually hearing what I have to say, not filling in my sentences, like one sentence in, then I can open the door a little bit and then feel it out. So I guess when people genuinely listen and genuinely want to know and understand what I have to say and just hear it. Like don't minimize, minimizing is as damaging to me as putting a gigantic exclamation point on it. We really need to do any of those things. We just need to have a discussion kind of as it was an intense period in my life.

SW: Do you have any idea or sense as to why so many people, whether they mean to or not, minimize it or invalidate it? Even if they're well-intentioned, why do you think we do that so often?

AV: I know that my mom, my close friends, felt like, I think they were quick to minimize it, they were quick to shut it down because they did not want to have a conversation. So by pretending like it didn't happen or by acting like it was a mistake or it was something that I terribly regretted and for a long time I did not regret it. It shuts off the conversation before it can even start.

SW: That's one way to do it for sure. Obviously I'm someone who's comfortable talking about it or I wouldn't be doing this right now with you. But I just don't really understand why it seems like people are so averse to hearing it.

AV: I genuinely think that people like to take something, put it in a box, wrap it up, put a bow on it, and kind of put it under the tree. And this isn't something that you can really wrap up and put away.

SW: Yeah, for sure. And you do work in this field or connected to mental health, right?

AV: Yes, I am a social worker and I am a researcher. My specialty and my master's program was crisis intervention at Washington University in St. Louis. One of the few programs that actually offered that. So I had worked in it a lot. I got my license when I was 25 and it really wasn't something that I had experienced. I had experienced it but nothing to that intensity. I was good at what I did before this happened and maybe I was bad at it for about a year while I was trying to but I didn't practice, to be honest, I took time off because I was at risk of losing my license actually if anyone in the licensing board had found out what happened my license could have been called into question. So I just quickly took, made my license inactive, did what I needed to do. But I think since I have come back, I'm better at what I've done than I ever was even before. Because I think I really do hear people more now.  The work I'm doing right at this moment is for my parents who have lost a child and I can hear what they have to say much better than I previously would have. I'm okay with extreme emotion which previously maybe I would not have been.

SW: It's very interesting that you point out, I imagine in your job, you have a lot of different functions. And the one that you point out as perhaps the most important or certainly one of the most important is hearing what people are saying. You're not necessarily fixing them or have a magic pill. It sounds like part of what helps is to hear them.

AV: And to know that I can't fix it and I can't change it, but I can listen and help guide the conversation in a way where they can eventually kind of fix it themselves.

SW: Yeah, that's gotta be tough, challenging. I'm wondering what you would tell or share with people who are in their lives trying to support somebody who is really down.

AV: The most important thing is to see the whole person, see the entire person from like head to toe to fingers to every strand of hair, like see the person and understand that that's a part of them, but it does not define them. It doesn't make them who they are, that their depression, their anxiety, their obsessive tendencies, their suicide attempt does not make them whatever it is you perceive them to be in your mind. It's the same person. You're just seeing a different piece of it. You're seeing a different, maybe like slice of the pie, but it is not the whole person and not every conversation needs to be centered around how do you feel? How are you doing? You shouldn't be doing that, if you would only... Just kind of have a normal conversations that it doesn't even have to address the issue. Don't tell someone. You really need to try, if you only took medication X, all your problems will be better. Like everything would be great if you only took medication Y. Don't even do that. Don't go down that road.

SW: How many times have you heard those types of sentences or platitudes or quick fixes?

AV: My mom is the queen of, my gosh, April, I heard, I heard that this medication, like this medication, you'll never have anxiety again. You have to tell your doctor that you need to take that. And I just cut, now I just roll my eyes and say, okay, and with no intention ever of doing that, but yes, all the time.

SW: Are you Midwestern?

AV: I grew up in Virginia.

SW: Virginia, okay. I don't know why I associate Midwestern with those kinds of responses like, but yeah, I do. Fair or not. So in addition to the move and then the work, what else if anything has helped for you to feel a little bit better? I don't want to assume you do, but what's gotten you to where you are, if it's therapy or medication or perhaps other things?

AV: Absolutely, therapy has. I didn't do a whole lot of therapy prior to the attempt, but since then, I really have, I have a very good therapist now that I see two times a week, not just one. I do use medications, medication for my mood, and then I take PRN, as needed, medications for anxiety. For me, and I know that possibly I'm in the minority,  I need to not talk about it. A lot of people will start talking about it talk about it 24-7. And I'm not saying that, but I literally don't really talk about myself to anybody ever about anything except to say, I'm good, thanks, how are you? And then kind of move on. So to not, if I'm having a rough time, if things are getting out of kilter, if things are getting out of sync, to not pretend in my mind that that's not happening, but to just be open about it and to even say, if I was 100 % sure it would be successful, I would do it again in this moment. Just to say what I'm experiencing and not shut myself down, not censor myself. And that means I have to be around the right people. I have to be around people who are gonna allow me to take it a little further than I'm fine, great, thanks, how are you, who are gonna allow that and not be quick be like, oh my God, you can't do that. I've literally had people, like if I say, you know, I'm getting really down again, it's really frustrating, I don't know how I'm getting out of it. And then I don't need the first words to be, my God, you need to go back in the hospital. No, I don't need to go back. But that can be an immediate reaction as well.

SW: Right. Take a breath. Let's talk. Do you have people in your life who you can engage in that way or will engage with you in that way?

AV: Yes.

SW: And you said, how many kids do you have?

AV: I have three.

SW: Do you share with them or do they ever ask about it?

AV: My middle child has autism and so that's kind of a no-brainer. We don't really go there. My daughter, I have, we have had some kind of mental health conversations, but nothing really deep. Unfortunately, my oldest son, he is not, he's not accepting at all about what has happened. And really, that's the absolute worst part about it.

SW: That’s gotta be really hard.

AV: It is very hard. He was in college in New York City when it kind of when it happened and I really have not had a relationship with him since then. I mean, I've seen him we talk, we kind of do the song and dance, but we don't have a really a relationship. One day we will, but for now we don't.

SW: Yeah. So right, like you were saying, it's not always a pretty bow and everything's good now. You know, there's a fallout, there's effects, there's consequences.

AV: Yeah, and what happened with my son I mean, I guess this is something that I would say to other people as well, with my oldest son, because he was not home when it happened, I was not honest with him about what had happened. I was trying to protect him. I was just like, I'm having a hard time, et cetera. But I wasn't honest about what had happened. And I even denied it when he had asked me. And I think that has been a big piece of getting that relationship to a better point, because I felt like I had to not be honest about it.

SW: And if you could go back, would you have done that differently?

AV: I would have asked, I really, really believe like knowing what I know now that I would have asked someone to help me be honest with them. Like that I would have maybe tried to have a therapist to involve maybe at his school, that I could be honest about what was going on. So I wouldn't have just jumped into what had actually happened, but I wouldn't have been dishonest about it. I think I would have tried to find a way to communicate it that wouldn't be overwhelming.

SW: That makes sense. I love that you would have asked somebody else obviously that you trust.

AV: To help. Yes. I didn't feel like I could do that.  So my instinct was to protect him and just not be honest about what had happened.

SW: Yeah, I can't imagine that kind of, it's gotta be such conflict to state the obvious in addition to everything you're going through, but those kinds of decisions you need to make around communicating with your children or your family or whomever else is, yeah, like I said, I can't imagine.

AV: And my family, the people closest to me are the ones who really suggested and backed up my not being honest with him as well. It wasn't just my decision. It's like the people who are around me supported that decision, genuinely believed it was the right thing to do until the fallout happened and then they bailed on me. But during the process, they also believed that kind of pushing it under the rug a bit.

SW: I wonder if pushing it under the rug ever works.

AV: I don't think it does. It doesn't have to all be on the rug at the same time all the time, but if it's all hidden, it can't work.

SW: What do you think people misunderstand about? You know what? Obviously we're talking about suicide. That's what the podcast is about. So I hate to ask a question like, what do people not understand about suicide or suicide attempt survivors? Cause it suggests that everybody's the same and obviously they're not. And I'd be guilty of doing the thing that people don't like, which is that's defining them. But I suppose I'm wondering, what is something in your experience that is really misunderstood about this experience or this decision or

AV: I did not want attention. I did not want to make life difficult for my family. I did not want to tarnish my family name. I just wanted to die. And I didn't think I was going to survive it, so I didn't really think about the aftermath. If you really want to die and are convinced you're going to die, you don't really necessarily think about the aftermath.

SW: Yeah. I don't know if it's a self-selected group that chooses to come on and share with me, but I've heard that a lot. I think with everyone in which it's come up where it was not a cry for help, it was not a cry for help. I really wanted to do that.

AV: Right, yes.

SW: Do you have any, for lack of a better word, you have any advice or thoughts for people who are where you were four years ago?

AV: I would say that it's okay. Be careful who you do it with, obviously, but it's okay to share what you're thinking. It's okay to talk about what you're feeling. It's okay that if you don't talk about it, there is no chance that anybody's going to be able to help. And you have to be somewhat selective about who you talk to and what you say, I guess in the beginning. Only because we live in a society that is so fearful of suicide, so fearful of someone dying on their clock that you have to be careful. But if you find the person that you can trust, you can talk about it. I think that would be the first thing. I mean, I'm sure you get that answer all the time. I think another thing would be the hospital is not the end of the world. Like it really isn't. I have my doctorate. have like lived a world that's not the hospital. And I thought the hospital was the end all be all of all failure and rejection. And it wasn't, it was a safe place to be and to explore and to

to feel whatever I was feeling and be able to be safe myself and as much as anything for other people to be able to trust that I was safe.  During that process. So the scenes you see on television or in movies or read about in books about even a short-term emergency psychiatric hospital, is the worst visions and stories you hear, it really isn't that bad. It's a lot better than losing your life over pride. Just, you can do it. Like, it's not what really anyone wants, but it really is okay. Good people work there. They want help.

SW: Yeah. Why did you get into that line of work? I'm curious about that field of study.

AV: I know I wanted to be a social worker like since I was five. So I'm not really sure. And then the reason I went in the direction of crisis is one of the first classes I took at WashU, I met a professor in that area who was just like, he just turned me on to all of the amazing things that a social worker could do in that field and I was able to do my practicum at his agency. My first job was there. It just really, felt right. And I think for the first time in our life, that was something that felt 100 % right.

SW: That's gotta be a damn good feeling.

AV: Yes, absolutely.

SW: For sure. Is there any chance that you'll try again?

AV: I guess never say never. No, there isn't. I cannot do that. I cannot do that to my kids again. I can't do it to my family again. And for me, that is first. I honestly can't say that I have to put them, I have to look at them and realize that all three of my kids including my oldest, that I'm a huge part of their lives. I have a child with special needs, I have a child with a disability, he relies on me for most things. I can't do that to them again. And I can't put that on whoever would have to care for him in the future. So just for those reasons, I would not.

SW: Is there something else you do that helps you get through your days or your weeks or enjoy life?

AV: Yes, I have a black belt and taekwondo. I do, and I do that. Even with the pandemic, even with things being down, I've been able to do that streaming, where they've run live classes ⁓ streaming in homes. That helps a lot. I did do a lot of the things that I grew up in a family with not a lot of education, kind of a different, not in a bad way, it's just what they knew was not what I gravitated toward. So reading, writing, listening to music, exploring just different ideas, I've kind of always been made fun of for doing that, or not made fun of, but it's kind of been like, you need to do something like that that matters.  So I have allowed myself to do those things because I love them and because they bring me meaning and because I place value on them and kind of people in my life have come to adjust. Like they're a lot more accepting of it. But when you grow up with a family, we like literally no one graduated high school that, that those things are not valued as much.

SW: Sure. Well, I have to  say, and I hope this doesn't sound at all, I don't know, trite or glib, I'm not sure if I'm even using those words correctly, that you were unsuccessful four years ago. You're here and I have no doubt that your kids and others are better for it.

AV: I believe that. Thank you.

SW: Yeah, is there anything else, I'm sure there's always other things, but I don't always ask all the questions I want to ask that you want to share.

AV: I think the one thing that I still feel like I have to hide and I actually talked about it with you, that I hate what it, and I do understand that my oldest son is a 23 year old young adult living his very egocentric, very normally egocentric 23 year old young adult male self. I get those things, but so it's not all about me. I get that it's not all about me. It's just part of where he is developmentally. I just, I think I would say to just to stress being honest, as honest as you can, as honest as you're safe being. And then also if you are a family member, if you are a son, if you are a daughter, if you are a spouse, that kind of, try to show a little grace. Like give a little...

that it wasn't an assault centered act. You can be angry, you can be whatever you are, but show just the slightest bit of grace.

SW: Mmm, that's a great word grace

AV: I hope one day I'll have the chance to do that with my son. I believe that I will. Yeah, I think that's just so important that there doesn't have to be blame. There doesn't have to be like so much ongoing anger, just maybe more of an understanding and acceptance that it is something.

SW: You had shared with me that you share story or storytelling or story crafting in some of your work. Is that right?

AV: I did yes,  working with hearing the stories of people who have lost a It's occasionally not a child, but most often a child are to accidental overdose typically opioid overdose and hearing their stories and sharing their stories oftentimes for the first time in a positive way kind of that

in their situation, their child does not have to be forever the one who died by overdose. Their child can be way more than that. Their child can be the one who was into acting, the one that had the lead of all of the school plays, the one that was the first to give someone food from her lunch if they didn't have any, like the one that was whatever. That can be who their child is. That is who their child is.

SW: Yeah, for sure. That's important, important work. It's important work. I would love to see more and more of that type of work by those who can do it and facilitate it. Powerful.

AV: Me too. 

SW: I know you had shared with me that you don't talk about this stuff often, so I am super appreciative and grateful that you said yes to me. You shared so candidly and courageously. So thank you for doing that. All right, April, have a really good day. 

AV: All right. Thank you so much.

SW: Thanks so much for listening. There are millions of people who try to take their lives every year, but they don't talk much about it.  Until we connect again, please stay strong. I will talk to you soon.