September 21, 2020 

SW = Sean Wellington, AM= Andy in Massachusetts 

AM: best thing people can do. Just be there. Like listen to me. Look at me crying and just stay there. Don't run away. Don't try to fix me. I hear you man. I hear, I feel your pain. I'm right here.

SW: Hey there, my name is Sean and this is Suicide Noted. On this podcast, I talk with suicide attempt survivors so that we can hear their stories. Every year around the world, millions of people try to take their own lives and we don't talk much about it. And when we do, we're not very good at it. And that includes me. So one of my goals with this podcast is to have more conversations with attempt survivors. And I hope, better conversations. Now we are talking about suicide. So please take that into account before you listen. I do hope you listen because there is so much to learn. We have had listeners in Spain, Greece, and Jordan. More and more people in more and more places because these stories matter and people need to hear them. If you are a suicide attempt survivor and you'd like to share your story, I'd love to talk with you. Please reach out at hello@suicidenoted.com And if you'd like to support this podcast, keep doing what you're doing. Listen to the podcast, let people know about the podcast, and if you're on a platform that allows you to do it, rate or review the podcast. I really appreciate it. Today I am talking with Andy. Andy lives in Massachusetts and he is a suicide attempt survivor. Hey Andy, how you doing? 

AM: Very good.

SW: Thanks so much for joining me, man.

AM: Yeah, it's my pleasure.

SW: Most peopleare not going to go and hop on a podcast and talk about their struggles, particularly when it comes to suicide. You are not one of those people or you wouldn't be here. And I'm wondering how you came to that point of ‘yeah I'll talk about.’

AM: For me, it was after years of struggling and condemning myself and judging and why me-ing and being a victim. And then finally it was like, you know, maybe I'm going through all this shit, so I'm supposed to share it and help people. And that really was, it was really just this maybe and think over 10 years ago, maybe even longer. Anyway, at some point I made my first like public video where I talked about it and I was terrified, but I got nothing but positive feedback. So I was like, oh, and I discovered that, sharing my story, again, not to go, oh, poor me, come pity me, but just sharing my actual experience, it helped me and it helped others. So it was an easy thing, not easy to do, but an easy thing that I fell into and realized there was value. And I find just time and time again, especially, you know, the more scared I am to share something, it usually is like the better the payoff if I finally do. But again, it comes from trial and error and you know, have I gone to like, I've got some videos where I'm just bawling and I don't even watch it and I just trust and I've published things that I've never watched and I've only gotten good, I've only heard good reviews from those things.

SW: Yeah, yeah. Share with me if you would about the actual attempt, however you want to and are comfortable doing that.

AM: So I unfortunately have made multiple attempts on my life. I can remember having suicidal thoughts as early as eight years old, which really tells me that they were before that because my memory of that memory of the thought was not like, my God, I'm having this horrible thought. was just, that's the first time I can remember thinking about, it was like a conversation at school of how, would you want to die? And I kept mine quiet. I did not, they were talking about horrible ways to go and I just like, I'm going to die by my own hand. I know that and, but I didn't speak of that. My first attempt was aged like 13. What I count as the real attempts were things that I did to myself that made me land in hospitals. That was five throughout my teenage years. I later met a psychiatrist who said, anytime you did something with the intention of harming yourself. That was a suicide attempt. And I was like, wow, because I like a of, a lot of intentional drinking and driving. I was once, I had the cops pull guns on me and I dared them to shoot me and didn't listen to them. And they did not. Lots of revving my car, you know, headed towards a brick wall of a loading dock and just veering away the last second, which I don't count that I couldn't go through with it, right? I was weak. So that doesn't count.

SW: Semantics a little bit, but yeah

AM: Yeah, yeah, so it all depends. But you know, I was, I just counted the quote unquote, the real ones. I don't go into specifics just because they were I don't want to give someone an idea they haven't had yet. Right. But everything, everything I tried, I really thought it would kill me. Obviously, it did not. Yeah. And and again, it was afterI had I think I was like, 19 years old. And I had just attempted in a way that I hadn’t attempted previously, didn't work for a second time. And I just remember just,  in the fetal position, bawling and just thinking, what the fuck is wrong with me? Like I can't even do this right. Which is just a common thought. If you've attempted, you know, I can't live, I can't die. Like what the fuck? What am I supposed to do? And, somehow that gave me my first glimmer of hope that maybe I am supposed to be alive. Maybe there's a point to all this. And that's the notion of sharing. Like maybe I'm going through this because I'm supposed to share it as opposed to… because I would be forced into help. I never took advantage of help yet. I thought I was beyond help. I thought I was hopeless and helpless. I thought if anybody really knew how dark I felt, they would run away. I thought I would lose my parents and friends if I really told them how gross I felt, how often I felt that bad.

SW: Yeah, it's tricky. I mean, it's a podcast. We're limited to words and language and they don't always express how we're feeling, particularly numbers of years ago. I do ask everybody. Well, why did you try it? It's the most unfair question I asked because it's like, I don't fucking know why. Like you just said earlier and a few minutes ago, you were having thoughts as early or earlier than eight years old. Is there a why? I guess is the better question.

AM: Oh I totally believe there is always a why. It's rarely what we think it is. That quote unquote final straw. It's never because of that. Like that's the final pushing point. That's when we finally give up. I believe suicide attempts are…mine were rooted in a complete lack of love for myself.  I thought it was unlovable. I thought I was broken. I thought it was so flawed. I was just, I was, I was just so fucked up of a human being, I was beyond anybody's help. And I wasn't worthy of being helped.

SW: Right. So you're done. Like you're done at that point. But here's what's interesting. I’ve only had one other person that I've talked to, share with me that it was like under 10 years old where they really started to… So you felt that way in as much as you can remember today at eight years old, unworthy, unlovable. Correct me if my words are not accurate, please at any time. Is that accurate?

AM: That is accurate. And when I was 20 years old in a hospital, I finally had a memory of being molested at like age five and six. And I thought, aha, that's what's been blocked all this time. And I can remember, like I did not, decided I'd really, the world's not safe. I better keep it all to myself. I can't trust adults. I can't trust anybody. The molestation started when my parents got divorced. So I was afraid that if I spoke up, I would be the next man kicked out of my house. So at age six I  just said, well buckle it down, shut up, don't tell them. I was the only child so it was easy.  And, and in hindsight, my parents could say, oh they could see the change, but they thought it was just the divorce. Like my mood, my demeanor, everything changed in me. So, you know, everyone else had something to blame for this change. And I decided to blame myself. And it's common for any child to blame themselves for a divorce, but then to be molested. And again, I didn't want to give some excuse for me to not  be a good boy. So circumstances were definitely against me. My dad was an alcoholic. He was also manic depressive. I don't have conscious memory of this, but he'll tell me that one of the first things I did as a human being was sit in a waiting room while he got shock therapy and hear him screaming. So I doubt that made a good impression. So there were just lots of things. And my dad often told me growing up that high school was the best years of your life. And I'm in elementary school already plotting my demise. I'm like, well, why does anyone… I’ll live till I'm 18 and then I'll die? Why would I bother to go to not the best years of my life? That makes no sense. So there was circumstantial reasons. There was this, I thought it was logical. Like I'll outsmart life. I'll just live this good chunk. And as I went on, those good years were very challenging. So there were many attempts to end those years even before I was 18.

SW: Yeah, I think that people who are in pain, that kind of pain, don't hear enough of, I was in that very similar kind of pain. And sometimes that means we need to get a little granular. So one of the questions I ask is, can you put words to that kind of pain, the kind of pain in which you try to take your life several times?

AM:  I saw absolutely no future. I thought the pain, the emotional pain, the physical pain, that tight gut, that clenched throat, that not being able to do anything that I thought I wanted just, just all I could see and feel was darkness and heaviness and weight. And I thought this is how it is always going to be. The moments of happiness and joy, those were the lies. This is the truth. I don't have depression. I am depression. Don't have suicidal thoughts that come and go. No, I am suicidal thoughts. That's how imposing it all felt. And  again, I thought this is nothing to share. I never wrote a note. I did not express if they were attempt attempt attempt before anyone knew something was going on. I was good in school. There was a point in junior high when I was cutting myself, and teachers saw it. And, you know, everybody'd want to think, Andy's does great in school. So whatever bullshit I gave someone as a reason for something, they took it like nobody wanted to decide that I was in horrible straights. There's this emotional tunnel vision. How bad I feel is how I will always feel.

SW: And it makes more sense when you're 12 or 13 or 14 and you don't have a little time and experience like I guess we do now when you're 13, 14, 15, it's like, man. What's it like to want to die and then not, you don't want to be here and then at some point you're waking up, right?

AM: This is one of the things that prompted me to go public. Cause when I was kid, I never saw any… ‘this isn't the way, you don't want to feel this bad.’ I never saw any adult go ‘I wanted to die and now I don't.’  So I was never introduced to that. So that's one thing that I want to talk about. And that's why I went public. So I had heard stories and seen on the news, like, there'd be a teenager on Oprah or something  ‘I laid down on the rail track and the train ran over my legs, but I was so happy to be alive.’  You know, they see the light, they have that moment, it's the light, takes one attempt. That was not my experience. The first time I woke up in an emergency room following an attempt that … the one that brought me the closest to death.

I was actually unconscious. I don't know if I call it a coma. I was unconscious for 12 hours. I don't remember being brought to the hospital or anything like that. I woke up and I realized where I am and I was like, fuck, I'm alive. Fuck, I was not happy. I was mad and then I realized where I was and the nurse is a mom of two people I knew from high school and I was, fuck, now everyone's gonna know life is getting worse by the moment. And yeah, I was never…I shouldn't say never. At like age 13, my first attempt just scared me. And I was like, so that, it didn't work. And I was just terrified. And I thought, oh my God, I don't want this. All right, good. This didn't work. Okay, this will never happen again. But again, I didn't get help. I just scared myself to want to live that moment, but no unburdening of what brought me there.

SW: It is astounding you're alive.

AM: You know, I never, ideally I could stop and like to celebrate, take credit for that.

SW: It's unlikely that you're here.

AM: Yeah. And sometimes as I went on and became a speaker, I would go to events and hear all the risk factors. And I'm at a conference not that long ago, like six years ago, and they've given me all the risk factors for suicide. And I'm like, holy shit, I have every single one of these. I felt horrible. I left that place more depressed than I went in for sure. I just felt doomed. And that's a problem with data. When you just hit with statistics, right? I used to think happy people were just, at the top, they were like Ned Flanders, like, okly doly, everything's great. They're just this one static happy mood. And I was just this one static dark mood in the basement of life with occasional peaks of sunshine, right? But that's not the case. That's this emotional tunnel vision that someone who is…has a history of suicidal thoughts or bipolar or mood swings, wherever you want to call it. We think normal is this one thing. But we will always have emotional ups and downs. It's just that ideally the downs aren't so down that you want to die. My bad days today probably feel better than anything could have imagined when I was suicidal.

SW: Do you ever ideate?

AM: Oh yeah, I don't know that that will ever be gone. And because I tell people often, if you've ever seriously contemplated ending your life, that thought will always be lurking somewhere. And it's lurking for when you're weak, you're tired, you're full of doubts. It'll always be there. Sometimes it shows up and I laugh at it. Like, really? Come on. You know, even I can laugh at this. And other times not. But another thing that is important and this wasn't shared to me when I was growing up. Suicidal thoughts are so common. Having the thought, having a suicidal thought, it's not a sign of mental illness. It's not a sign of it just as a sign of, especially now with pandemics and riots and all these things. Sometimes wanting to check out can be the sanest thought possible. Right?

SW: Preaching to the choir, baby.

AM:  It's acting on it. That's the key. So having the thought, great. Don't condemn yourself. Don't beat yourself up. It's when you're like, you know what? I think I'm gonna do this. That's the danger zone, right?

SW: That’s the danger zone. Now I'm not a doctor and I don't think you are right. So let's play doctor for a second. If you try to end your life, are you mentally ill?

AM: I do not think so.

SW: Not by definition. Obviously you might be, but that alone may not be…

AM: Right. So I was given lots of different medications, they did not quote unquote cure me of anything. So, you know, that's why it's just not an illness, it's just not some chemical imbalance. Again, for me, it was in realizing I had power over my thoughts. And feeling disgusting, feeling like I want to die finally became the clue that I'm probably dwelling on the worst aspects. I'm ruminating on how shitty everything is. I'm ruminating on victimhood. I'm ruminating on everything I've ever done wrong and that'll never change. We all have the power to go, all right, I'm gonna think about making scrambled eggs. That's weird, that changes my mood. But no, then it goes back. And when it snaps back, that's when a lot of people just give up. But that moment of break was enough for me to like, hey I felt different for that split second. So it works. It's just, again, when you're used to living in the emotional gutter, it takes more conscious effort to lift yourself out. And that's what's called, you know, we're in a rut. And that rut is literally in our brain. I had this, you know, the most negative neural pathways were the most thought. So it was easiest to fall into those. So I had to pick myself up and decide to make a different rut. I'm gonna make a new rut that says, hey, everything looks great. Alright, you're fucking lying, I'm gonna make that rut for a while.

SW: Did it feel fake at first or did it feel like, the time is right?

AM: You know, it felt very real at first. That's what made me realize this is something. But I would sometimes have to fake it to choose a thought. When I really had this experience, I remember I was sitting in my bedroom and I'd look outside and I'd see a tree and I just picture myself hanging. And I’d think maybe I should get the noose. Do I have rope?  Do I need to buy some rope? And just, that's all I thought. And then my dog came in the room. And wow, the pressure just relieved. I said, all right, look at the tree, feel horrible. Look at my dog, pet my dog. Should we go play ball? Wow, I would feel different in this split second of what I chose to focus on. And so that's what proved to me that there's something here, right? I'm not just at the mercy of my thoughts and emotions and chemicals, right? I do still have some control. I am able to drive my ship.

SW: Yeah. Did you ever get a diagnosis that felt right?

AM: I never even got the same diagnosis. Hospitalized five times, different diagnosis every time. So yeah.

SW: It's like chucking darts.

AM: And again if you feel liberated and relieved by getting a diagnosis, having a label, having something to point to, great. But you are not a label. You are not a diagnosis. If it feels like a weight, if it feels restrictive as opposed to freeing, then throw it away.

SW: I want know how people respond to somebody who is suicidal, has attempted, or how did people respond in ways that were either helpful or useful or the opposite of that.

AM: In the high school years, I definitely lost friends that just couldn't deal. Like you're back in school, you just tried to die. Like, I don't know what to do with that man. And they just walk away. And I get that like, yeah, it doesn't make sense. To me as this as the suicidal person, and it was definitely coming from me. And it's coming from a lot of people that I talked to, when you're thinking about ending your own life, you spin the story that it's actually going to help your friends and family. Sure, you might feel bad for a day or two, but then you won't have to worry about me. I'm not going to be pulling everyone down like I am. And you'll move on. Everyone will be better. We tell ourselves these lies to make our destructive actions easier for us. Yeah, I definitely had friends that couldn't, you know, were bothered and triggered. And I think when you hear “Fred died, that's too bad. He killed himself.’  It's like, it's another level of gut punch.

And, you know, I think it's because I think it makes it's that mirror, like we're all reflecting ourselves back to each other. And if they felt so bad that they ended their life, you know, how can I keep going? Or, you know, I felt that bad too. I think there's this moment of self reflection that it brings up that's uncomfortable for people. But I had friends welcome me back home by, ‘hey, let's go get drunk.’ And I did, and that did not help anything. But at least I wasn't alone…

SW: I mean, it makes sense. Were there people, let's assume well intentioned people, that cared about you? Friend, family who were helpful? Like what did that look like?  By the way, I'm such a newbie. I'm celebrating my almost 1000th download. You're a podcaster. I didn't think that was gonna happen. So I'm doing my best to figure this shit out. It's slow, but it's happening.

AM: The key is you celebrate it. Yeah, everything. I did a thing.

SW: 48 countries, baby. So I'm learning as I go. I'm sure you know those pains.

AM: Well, that's life. ‘Suicidal’ is this closed worldview. I thought life sucks, then you die. But when I'm willing to be wrong, willing to like learn new things, like, holy shit.

SW: And the big difference for me is, and this almost will sound corny, but it is so true for me. I'm like, ‘that one person in Laos really might've needed to hear what Andy said’. The numbers aren't about ‘when can I advertise?’ And I don't know if I've ever said this before about anything in my life. Like, these numbers might mean that someone's hearing this. And one thing someone says, might make someone feel a little better. I'm like, well, fuck yeah, I'm gonna keep doing it.

AM: Yeah, that's another addictive feeling, but it's so cool to be hooked on helping people or like feedback that something might matter. I find when so many people share their, you know, addiction or the mental health challenges, whatever it may be, there's ‘I just want to help one person, right? If I could save a life, it's all worth it.’ And I said that same thing, too. And I still remember the first person that told me that. And it was maybe a month after I said, if I just help one person and I met a stranger, they only knew me from YouTube and they gave me a big hug. They said  ‘I thought I was going to kill myself. You popped up on my screen and I'm still here.’ I was like ‘wow, it doesn't get old.’

SW: Nah, right? Good. Yeah, that's good medicine. One of the things I like to talk about is the people in our lives who are well-intentioned, who are inadvertently making things worse by the things they say. I focus on the things and the words. It could also be actions or silence sometimes. I find that there people say stuff that isn't helpful. And I like to ask, your experience with that if it applies. That was a very long question. I hope it was clear.

AM: No, I mean, there's all the older cliches that, you know, suck it up, man up, you know, what you crying about? So yeah, anytime someone tries to sum up your suicide attempt or your depression with a cliche, yeah, not helpful.

SW: That's a good rule.

AM: The best thing people can do, they don't have to do anything. Just be there. Like listen to me, look at me crying and just stay there. Like don't run away, don't try to fix me. Just like, yeah, I hear you man. I hear, I feel your pain. I'm right here. And that can be the biggest thing someone can do.

SW: Huge. We don't learn that. Which is astounding to me. I'm not taking away from all the things we do learn formally and informally. Very few people learn that. I, that's a weird kind of thing to not learn that. It's pretty important, no?

AM: Well, you know, most humans in our society don't want to feel uncomfortable. I believe that every addictive behavior is a way to hide our feelings. So if you're someone that's been battling emotional mental challenges, you're triggering people to feel. So that's why the people that mean good like, well, let's get drunk, let's get high, come on, let's go forget about everything you just did. And like, you know, I'll keep repeating this pattern if my goal is to forget about everything I just did. And it took me repeating my pattern for a long time for me to get that. But yeah, you gotta grow up, you gotta take responsibility. That was one thing I was afraid of. I thought responsibility meant blame. It's realizing that I was the hindrance. It's so much easier to blame others, right? Because that gives us some space. But when we can accept responsibility for our decisions, for our actions, that is the only time you're empowered enough to possibly change it. If I think ‘Sean, you're the reason, you called me an asshole and now we used to be close but now we’re not, it's all your fault.’ Like, no, none of it that is. Right? But it's an outlet. It's an expression to blame someone else. But if it's really, if it's everything that you did, Sean, then I am screwed. Because I can't change you. I can only change, me. And once I realize responsibility for myself and my life allowed me to change myself and my life. That was a huge turning point.

SW: When did that process begin where you started to change? I guess that is the right word.

AM: It was that moment of feeling that glimmer of hope. When I had done so many attempts and I'm repeating myself and I'm like, all right, this obviously this road is not working for me either. And it was really, when I had ‘I live a miserable life or I die.’ And I was forced to say ‘wait, there must be other options in between those.’ And so I got into personal growth, I got into spirituality.

You know, I really, I didn't grow up with any sort of religion. I want to die because I want everything to stop. It was not, I'll go to heaven or am I horrible? Just, nope, I just want everything to fricken stop. I don't want there to be an after anything. I want to be rotting in the ground. The end. I have since had enough weird experiences to realize that, yep, it's not just now. There is more. If I prematurely end my life, it makes what's next harder. Like there are things that as a human being I can deal with and get help with and release here that ending my own life, there's a gravitas, there's a weight, there's an energy that just makes whatever's next worse somehow, more difficult than it has to be.

SW: Yeah. At what point were you at a place where you could start some of the work that you're doing today? What did that look like?

AM: It's been a solid 10 years. Probably 12 years ago, I was on this internet call with a guy leading a meditation. I forget why, I think actually it was the secret when that first came out that gave me the possibility like, wait a minute, I can choose thoughts and that changes my emotion? Like it wasn't about ‘manifest a brand new Lamborghini, cool.’ It was more like just this notion of, wait, I control things? I was never told that. I was told I was being controlled by my emotions, not that I could get in front of them. So that's what I got from that book. And that put me on different email lists and webinars and stuff. And I was on this call with thousands of people online and guy David Morelli was leading us through a meditation. And I thought meditation was, oomm, and just sit quietly. But he was talking us through stuff and calling energy into us. And I felt stuff. I felt energy coming out of my palms. I felt like I was freaking Iron Man like shooting rays. I was like, what is happening? I have never been aware of this. I high. was like, I don't know what this is, but I'm learning more. And I followed him. I eventually got trained by him. I was part of his inaugural class. I did a year long energy coaching program. And the first six months were all just clearing out your own shit. And that's really why I signed up like this. Let's run this. Let me know what's going on and how to separate other people's energies.

I learned that I was empathic and this really wreaked hell on me as a kid, because I can remember being in school in like third grade, second grade, and just bawling. And like, why am I crying? This makes no sense. And I felt like, I'm picking up fear. I was so porous. The emotions of people around me would be expressed through me. So it wasn't even mine. And again, that's what made me think that I was just broken and flawed and just this freak and I was beyond help because I had no problem with being emotional, but I'm like, where's this coming from? And then I shut that down and years later, I had to get drunk and able to cry. So I stuffed everything well enough, then I couldn't express anything. So I had to go back and use something to open me up. But so I do this energy program. And I'm just like feeling better and you know, able to pull out densities and able to unpack things and having memories and just taking things apart. And halfway through it, people are asking me if I'm going to be a coach. And I'm like, why? Well, that's the program in you Andy. Oh oh we’re going to turn this around and help others. Because even at that point… the first time I went to college, I dropped out because the next semester had a mandatory public speaking class. That's how afraid of speaking I was. That's how afraid of being seen I was. I dropped out to avoid it. So even back then, 10 years ago, I was like, I don't wanna talk to people. I don't wanna be seen. I'm like, I wanna feel better, but I can't share anything. But it was slowly, it was around that time that I did my first videos and discovered wait, okay, I am good at this. And sharing does help people. And coaching people and helping anyone else makes you feel better too. That's a big thing, no one taught me or maybe they did. Maybe as a boy scout I was supposed to help old ladies cross the street and I didn't take advantage of it. But being of service to others, especially when you're invisible and focused on how much you suck, if you can build up the energy, the thought and just do something for somebody to shift that, that changes a lot.

SW: How do you reach somebody? Because it's “Real Men Feel” right? Real men feel is the organization. So how do you,  f you were talking to 13 year old Andy, and we don't have to do that exercise, you were not probably going to be, it wouldn't have connected. Yeah, your stuff is great. But I want to fucking kill myself. What now? What do you do there?

AM: So everything I do now on a daily basis and love and brings me joy is something I made fun of for years first. And everything I do with clients is something I learned to deliberately save my life. So I have no problem being, you you've got to hear something for the first time. And the odds are, yeah, if I introduce, you know, 10 different techniques and you're all going, that's all crazy. That's nonsense. That's all woo woo. Whatever it is that comes up in you, great. Because the next time it'll be a little less and the next time it'll be less right? So yeah that's where so taught to not tell I guess yeah advertising media teaches us to you know want that silver bullet and like yeah here's the one thing I worked worked immediately you can buy it at Walmart. Go ahead and that doesn't exist

SW: Yeah, the hack, quick hack.

AM: Yeah. The quickest hack, which took me a long time, is to love yourself. It really is. When I could finally see that my vulnerability, the weakness that kept me alive and had me veer away from smashing my car, that was my strength. It took a long time to reframe that, to see it as the truth. Right? So most people don't want to admit that they've been wrong. They've been lying to themselves. Especially when I was 17, I was so certain that suicide made sense and was logical. I thought I could debate anyone. I'm like, if you're not suicidal, you're ignoring reality. You've got your head in the sand. Don't you see how shitty everything is? What kind of moron are you? And I was like, wow, how full of shit was I? And now I'm willing to see that I'm full of shit. I'm willing to be wrong. Because I'd rather be happy than be right. Suicidal, Andy, insisted on being right. But as far as not connecting, when someone reaches out to me, if they're in crisis, they're actively suicidal, I can't help you. You've got to go to a hospital, call the police. Your safety is paramount. I can't keep you safe over the phone or Zoom. I've talked to lots of people that it's their background. I've had so many people in a conversation with me will admit to making an attempt and they'll say, nobody else knows this. And it might've been a month ago, might've been 10 years ago. But that, again, because that pain is there and that thought, if you had that thought, it's there. And I also talk to people sometimes that I just don't get it. Why would anyone do this? I'm like, if you don't understand wanting to die, don't try to understand it. Be glad!

SW: That's actually a huge, that's a great message. If you don't understand it, don't try to understand it.

AM: I'll talk to parents who've lost a child to suicide and they're tormenting themselves. Like if you can't figure out that pain, be glad. Keep living your life. You don't follow someone's suicidal act as a way to honor them or follow, no, live your best fricking happiest life as a tribute to someone who can't.

SW: Yeah. Over Andy's left shoulder, I see Realmenfeel.org  And then there's what I want to ask about is there's four words: warrior, lover, magician and king. What are those about?

AM: So those are the four main archetypes of masculinity. And often in American culture, men are allowed to be warrior and you're always on and you're always on the attack. It's because there's the aggressive warrior and that's all that we're ever shown. Magician is being willing to meditate, to soften, to create, to express. And lover is being that open heart, that connection and admitting that you want love. Which all humans want. But some men will never admit that that's something they're after. And the notion of the king is your ability to bring it all together and go back to being responsible. Right? Yeah, you are the king of your life, your identity, your manhood, and you bring those all together. But if you're just living, you know, one of those four archetypes, or all of them at 10 % or something, you know, you're not really living yet.

SW: So your organization focuses on that and helping people get, raising them up more consistently and more often. Yep.

AM: And it's all like, it's, it all begins with awareness. Oh a man is more than I was told? And that's where it all begins. And someone might hear that and go, what a crock of shit that is. I don't care what your reaction is to it. I just know I need to keep presenting it. 

SW: Come back. Yeah. It's a good name. I like the name of that ‘real men feel.’

AM: Yeah. And it came from when I was asked to give this talk on masculinity like over five almost five years ago. And I was like, sure, I'll do that. And I said like, Fuck, what am gonna say? Like, am I a man? So many times I felt like no,  I'm quick to cry, I'm emotional, I’m a little softy. Am I even a man? And wouldn't it be cool if real men weren't just lumberjacks and Rambo movies, but they felt. So that that part of the presentation stuck with me. But it also means realizing authentic, right? I'm not saying you're not a man if you don't feel. But to be authentic, you must feel.

SW: Imagine somebody's listening and hearing your words and they are suicidal. They do not need to go to the hospital. They're not at that point, but they are contemplating. Actually, let me take that back. Let me go back. Perhaps they should go to the hospital. I never want people to hear this and I don't know what they're gonna think. But the point of the question is, is there anything you could say to them?

AM: It's okay. It is okay to feel that bad. And...Let feeling that bad be a sign that you're alive. Let being upset, not liking things…well, you're alive. Because if you take the worst action, if you ended your life, it's just, it's worse. And that's not something I always got. And I don't mean, you know, morally, religiously, but it's just, I'm really like, it's worse. That's why, that's why trying to kill yourself, it takes effort. It's hard. Like that's life saying, no, don't do this. Like all of your being is screaming for you to keep living, keep breathing, keep going on. So all the, you know, and that's why I'm like, why did it take me more than once? Or like that thought. Think about something else like this feels so gross because it's what you're thinking about Right, so do your best to do something else but first just know it's okay again, it's common. It's okay. You'll get through it if you choose to.

SW: And what about to the people who are in that person's life who have no idea what to do or say or their worried?

AM: So depending on how worried you are, right? You do wanna make sure someone is safe. I had this weird…It was true for me, that I was bizarrely honest. So if you're like, are you gonna, how bad does it feel? Yeah, I wanna die. All right, can I leave you for this hour? Yeah, you can. Like I… because someone was there and I know you wanna help, so yeah, I'm not gonna screw you by ha ha, I cut my throat when Sean turned his back. Like, I know that would upset you for at least the day. But just be there. Look them in the eye. Don't run away. I remember when I was like 12 years old visiting friends of the family and parents were chastising their youngest daughter because she had tried to OD on a bottle of aspirin. And it was like the day after she had done this and they were laughing and making fun of her like, no, what an idiot, what kind of a, everybody knows that doesn't work. What a fool you are. And I wanted to go fricking strangle these people. And so that's what not to do. Don't belittle, don't judge, don't put down, just be there. Hear their pain and don't run away. Do your best not to shut down. Right? If it's friends and family loved ones, like hug, cry, cry along with it. If they're crying, cry right with them. If they're swearing, like start swearing with them, like join them. If someone else venting, someone else helping them to express and just be okay, remind them, you know, you're human. Like I get it. You know, I have no idea what to do, honey, but I'm right here. That's some of the best things my parents ever said. Like I knew that they might not know what to do but I knew I could tell them anything. I knew that even when I hated myself when I wanted to hate them, I knew they loved me. But that's this weird thing for parents too. Like if my mom doesn't love me, well fuck even my mom doesn't love me. Life sucks. If my mom does love me, well she's my mom. Of course she has to love me. That doesn't count. We all have a way of using the facts to back up however we are feeling.

SW: We are really good at that. We're masters at that. How has the last, what has it been, five months been for you in the sort of new lockdown craziness?

AM: So I've worked from home for 15 years. I don't have kids. So the pandemic hasn't changed my day to day that much. 

SW: You already knew Zoom.

AM: Yes, I did. I sure did. And, you know, there was a point during it, like April or May, I started to feel bad because I wasn't feeling bad. And I was like, that's peculiar. And so I just wanted to sit with it. But so I made an effort to really share more positivity than ever. I really just try to put only the best news on social media. I don't try to feed anything else. And I also just put myself out there. I've been on a number of podcasts and Facebook's live just openly talking about race with African Americans and showing up in a panel and being the token white guy trying to just, here I am, you know?  I'm willing to be wrong and you know I can oh yeah I can see yeah privilege is real well I get it and I had no idea how scary it was to be black in America I get it now I you know I don't my eyes are open I don't get it right I don't live that but I'm like holy crap I had no idea it was this bad for you I had no idea you were this terrified.

SW: You said earlier, awareness, the starting point. Without it, it's tough.

AM: Yeah. If you're trying to change your life and you're not aware of what the issues are, you know, you're just blindly like buying a different color paint, paint a room with 17 colors at once and wondering why it doesn't look good or…

SW: Totally. Open-ended question, because I don't always assume I ask the right questions or the best questions about your experience with suicide, your attempts, your recovery. What did I leave out? What else do you want to share?

AM: However bad you feel, you're not alone. However bad you feel, someone, many people have felt that bad and gotten better. How gross you might feel in any given moment, just decide, this is the low point of my life. And instead of ending it there, start to rise up, right? Start to see and feel and imagine. I mentioned energy work, just imagine better. We're so used to you know, imagining the worst, imagining our demise, imagining that things can only be better if we're dead. So imagine something better, like give your heart, give your soul a break. And that can feel like the real effort. Just imagine you're someone else, right? Imagine whatever it can just to give you that. Bring that weight off of you. But the other big thing and is this something that I did not live this for a long time silence kills. If you're feeling bad, if you're feeling like you're gonna do something, if you're plotting and planning, don't keep it a secret. You can use the crisis text line, you can call, you know, a suicide prevention hotline. If you don't feel there's someone in your circle that you feel safe going to then use a stranger and like and I've made use of all those tools and you know, they can help, they can be a support. There's a better way to release that built up tension than making an attempt on your life. Like I found that if I told someone what I was planning, that the exhale was more powerful and helpful than taking an action. Because there was a while, it seemed like I was hooked on making attempts. Because things got better. Like I felt better. Like it did, it was like, I released a cork by trying to die and like, nope, not a, not a path I recommend at all, but that's what I was doing.

SW: Yeah. And if somebody hears this and they or somebody they know are thinking, I like Andy and he seems pretty cool. Maybe I can team up with him and join his coaching crew or whatever it looks like. How do they get a hold of you? I'll put it in the show notes, but what's the RealMenFeel.org world like for them and you.

AM: So the best, everything I'm up to, you'll find at theandygrant.com 

SW: TheAndyGrant.com 

AM: Correct. And you know, one of my books is called Still Here, How to Succeed at Life After Failing at Suicide. And that's everything I wish I knew at 17. It's everything that has helped me. And it's all the things I was not taught at all. So there's that. And it's intentionally as an ebook, it's 99 cents. Like I intentionally want no barrier to entry to feeling better and tools. And I have a couple books on using positive affirmations. And it's free. Yeah, to say something nice about yourself is frickin free. But these books give you some ways to do it. And again, they're intentionally inexpensive, audio book, paperback, ebook, whatever you need the most. But yeah, Real Men Feel is the podcast this week released episode 200.

SW: I'm on number 13, baby. Well, you'll probably be around 20. So hey, I'm following in your footsteps, man.

AM: Yeah I mean you can't get to 100 without hitting 13 and 20 so it all you just keep for podcasting for living your life for staying alive always just take the best smallest step you can. Right don't try to fix everything and that you know that pressure is what keeps us trapped. Just do one thing you know find something to laugh at right and just remember wow I can still do that. That's one thing that opened my mind. I was hospitalized, I was following a suicide attempt. I've been diagnosed as clinically depressed and I'm watching Seinfeld and the Simpsons and I'm laughing in the hospital. I'm like, wait a minute. They said I'm clinically depressed. How come I'm laughing now? And it was the same day. It was my first day there. I'm going bawling through intake and now when I'm still in a Johnny, I refuse to help. I was brought in an ambulance. I'm not dressed. I'm just, I'm making life as difficult as I can for the people trying to help me because I'm an asshole at times. And then I'm laughing. Ah-ha, see I'm laughing, you're all wrong. But it's true. Find something to laugh at, find something you enjoy. And I know in the darkest times, there's just nothing. And that's okay.

SW: And that's okay. And when you're not in front of a computer, which I think you're probably in front of a computer or a mic somewhat often, what's one thing that brings you joy outside of the stuff we've talked about?

AM: I love movies, concerts. I've always had a dog. I've got my third dog in my house here. 

SW: Nice, what kind?

AM: All shelter dogs her name's Scout. She definitely gots some pit bull in her. She gets some hound dog.

SW: Gotcha. Awesome, This has been super, super good, man. I really appreciate it. And I also, by the way, this is a weird thing that won't probably make the final version after I edit it, but thank you for not going overboard. And you didn't do it at all of like plugging your stuff.

AM: Yeah, no, I'm…

SW: That's the thing. There's like a circuit of podcasters and that's why I respect it because you just gave me 50 plus minutes of your time. So I'm happy. I don't have much of a following, but nonetheless, but you just got real and thank you for that because that's what this particular podcast is about is you really being real.

AM: Yeah, again, real men feel is not a catchphrase. It's not a catchphrase at all. And yeah, I'll be on shows and I've had my business coach tell me, did you make an offer? Like, huh? Like, no, I'm my offer. I’m here talking to people.

SW: Your business coach might be right, for me, I will connect with people who just keep it real. 100 % believe people will hear this and their lives will be better for it. So thank you so so much. All right. Stay well, Andy. As always, thanks so much for listening. Special thanks to Andy up in Massachusetts. For now, we are releasing new episodes every Monday and Thursday, so stay tuned for those. You can follow us on Facebook and Twitter, and we also have a YouTube channel, so you can hop over there. Until we connect again, stay strong, do the very best you can. I'll talk to you soon.