Survivor Update #34: JP & Kelly (Raleigh Tour) 🎬

[00:00:00] Hey there, my name is Sean. We're going to skip the traditional or typical introduction because you are going to hear that same introduction in a few moments. When I was addressing my audience at the first tour event in Raleigh, North Carolina in late September, this was by the way, the biggest event we had in terms of audience. It was in some ways the most personal event because I'm from there so I had friends in the audience.

[00:00:24] And it also brought with it a unique situation or dynamic in that I was able to do, after the conversation with my two guests, a sort of Phil Donahue style, take the mic and go into the audience if you don't know who Phil Donahue is. He wasn't the only one to do it but that's who I remember. Google him, see a video, you'll know what I'm talking about. But basically I had the opportunity to engage with the audience in a kind of cool and unique way.

[00:00:49] Now at some points during our conversation with the audience in particular, you may not know the name of the person who's talking. I listened to it a few times, I don't think it matters, so we should be good there. And you also might be wondering why is Sean posting some things from the tour but not other things from the tour and it's not all in order? The reality is at some events I was able to record video and audio, at some events it was only audio, at some events it was actually only video with really crappy audio.

[00:01:18] So ultimately for the podcast, they are going to be released in no particular order and I unfortunately won't be able to release all of them because some of them weren't recorded. And if there's another tour, even more reason for you to try to attend if you can. Let me stop there, I appreciate you listening. Remember to check out those polls on Spotify and rate us on Apple. Thank you, five stars please, and welcome to Raleigh.

[00:01:45] When I decided to do this tour, I was thinking about what you all might need to know before we had the actual conversation. How the podcast came to be or where did the tour come from or how that was planned. Or maybe my connection to suicide. I lost my best friend years ago to suicide and I've struggled with suicidal ideation for years until this moment right here. And I thought, no, there's got to be a better way. And yesterday, I said, why don't I just share with you the exact same thing I share with everybody who listens to the podcast.

[00:02:14] That intro works and so that's what I want to do. My name is Sean and this is Suicide Noted. On this podcast and this live event, I talk with suicide attempt survivors and ideators so that we can hear their stories. Every year around the world, millions of people, many millions of people try to take their own lives and we almost never talk about it. We certainly don't talk about it enough and when we do talk about it, many of us, when we do engage, perhaps present company excluded, I don't know, we're not very good at it.

[00:02:40] So, one of my goals with the podcast, this event, which is the first stop on a national tour, is to have more conversations and hopefully better conversations with attempt survivors and ideators. In large part, to help more people in more places feel a little less shitty and a little less alone. So, if you ask me why I'm doing it, I could probably come up with a few answers.

[00:03:04] But, basically, it's the less shitty, less alone thing, which is really hard to quantify, but it's still hopefully a decent goal. Now, what I say in a podcast intro, which is a little different than here, is I say if you are a suicide attempt survivor or someone who ideates or thinks about it, past or present, and you'd like to talk, please reach out. However, you're here. Now, I do have two guests. I'll introduce them in one moment. But we will have a Q&A. And if you want to share stuff, you can.

[00:03:31] One hundred percent optional, of course. And even if you're not that person, I'd love to hear your thoughts on this. Obviously, we're talking about suicide. My guests and I, both for the podcast and this, we don't hold back. But if we're going to have honest conversations, we have to have the conversation. And sometimes that might feel a little bit uncomfortable, perhaps scary. And, of course, take care of yourselves. You know you. You're adults. You know you far better than I ever will. So, take care of yourselves, whatever that looks like. Take one question for you all.

[00:04:02] And then we're going to sit down and talk. The question is a question I've been asking on the podcast for probably two, maybe three years. I don't need your answers unless you want to share them after the conversation. I do want to tell you why I'm asking this question. But I'm going to do that after the conversations as well. And it's called the pink and purple pill question. I give you a pill. If you take the pill, you go to sleep. You don't wake up. There's no pain. And nobody knows the suicide. I want to know what you would do with that pill.

[00:04:29] Behind me are two of probably the more bold and badass human beings I know. And I know that because anybody who comes onto a podcast to talk about their experience with suicide is by definition bold and badass. JP and Kelly, they're both local. We're waiting on Lance. We're going to get started. I appreciate you being here very, very much. I thank you for your interest. I thank you for your attention. And I thank you for listening. Let's do it. I want you to know that I'm a guy who sits at his kitchen table.

[00:04:58] That's where it started. And I just sit there and I'm on Zoom usually. And I'm talking one-on-one almost always with people. And I'm recording it. It's not live. So I get to be a goof. I get to do whatever I need to be. And this is different. So this is an interesting little challenge for me. Kelly and JP. When did we talk, JP? Remember? I was going to ask you. Oh, I'm sorry. Yeah. I think we talked like two or three years ago. Two years. Two years ago. Kelly, what were we about seeing? We talked earlier this year. It was this year? It was this year. I know.

[00:05:28] Wild, right? Right. So it was this year because I had auditioned for the storytelling show. Yeah. With my attempt story. Right. And you were one of the directors. When we talked, so it was earlier this year and a couple years ago, I ask a question usually at the beginning, towards the beginning, which is how many suicide attempts do you have? Which is not a question people typically hear. Like I can tell you, no one's ever asked that question to me. At least until I started doing the podcast. So for me, I would say one suicide attempt.

[00:05:56] And I think I phrased it that I had a total of three kind of suicide experiences where I was right there. I was on the edge of maybe a minute away from deciding, okay, yeah, I'm going to take this action. So it was two times when I did not. So one attempt and two new attempts. Yep. What about you, Kelly? Two attempts. The first one was in high school. And my parents were not aware. I just slept for a few days.

[00:06:22] But I was getting up to like get crackers, get water, use the restroom and that kind of thing. My most recent attempt, which was very serious, was two years and give or take two weeks ago that I counted out a whole bunch of Xanax and I took it. So within two minutes of the conversation, we're in method, the thing we're never supposed to talk about. I love it.

[00:06:44] When I said earlier that we don't hold back, it's talking about some things that arguably there are some schools of thought to say you should not talk about that. And my approach is more, you can decide if you want to answer it. I think it's important to communicate some of these things that we aren't always allowed to talk about. If the goal is to help people feel less shitty and less alone, if that's the main metric, then hearing that might help somebody. So that's my take anyway. And that's the kind of thing I love. If you disagree with that, that's great. We'll do it at the Q&A.

[00:07:13] I welcome pushback 100%. Kelly, can we talk more about your first attempt when you were in high school? I want to know, until that point, had you ever thought about it? Yes. I had thought about it since I was very young. And very young to me now is like 11, 12, 13. Yeah. Also 20 is very young to me now. So I was not great in high school. I was great at theater. I was great at music. I did pretty well in English. I did very well in French.

[00:07:40] But all these other classes, I wasn't great at. My parents were two very academic people. They were college professors. And my brother made straight A's without cracking a book. Drunk and pretty much coked out of his brain most of the time. Is he here? No. He's gone. They're all gone. It was just, I was sad. I could not really express how bad I was feeling. And I was in therapy at the time. Right. And it just wasn't working. It was the wrong psychiatrist for me, the wrong therapist for me.

[00:08:10] When I told my parents, I'm not doing any better. I never told them that I had attempted. I'm not doing any better. They changed my psychiatrist. My therapist was fine, but they changed my psychiatrist. Okay. And that's to their credit. So this is after the attempt? After the attempt. Okay. Yes. All right. Got it. And the med I was on, it drug me out. Like a really old school one. I know we're going back a few years. I want to, I'm like on this constant search, you know, what it feels like to be in that space.

[00:08:38] I have my own experience with it, but I don't have yours. When you try to end your life and you're not dead, you're alive. I think there's a thing that sometimes people think, well, you're good now. Some people might say that, but you're okay now. Obviously that's not the case. And some people I've talked to, there's a thing about wanting to end the pain, which is 100% valid. But I asked this question, did you want to die or did you want the pain to end or can those two coexist? So do you recall that at 17? I wanted the pain to stop at 17.

[00:09:08] Yeah. I know where this is going for later. So you're alive. Then, and you get a new psychiatrist and it starts to help you and you go, okay, what's it like to want to die and then, or want the pain to end? And it's still there. Kind of shitty actually. Yeah. Because the pain doesn't stop. You can do therapy. You can have support of your friends. Yeah. But the pain doesn't stop. So JP, how old were you? So you had the one. The one. We want to talk about all of them, for your permission. Sure. Let's talk about the one attempt attempt. Okay. How old were you?

[00:09:38] Well, it was 2014. So 41. Okay. 40, 41. Had you thought about suicide leading up to that in the first 40 years of your life? Experience number one was about three years before that. After my suicide attempt, I feel like I've lost a lot of my long-term memory. Yeah. Right? So I, and you don't know what you don't, you don't remember what you don't remember. I would characterize myself as being depressed for most of my life. My first marriage wasn't a great one. Things were really stressful and neither one was really ready to be married.

[00:10:05] So there was a lot of push and pull and things, uh, things deteriorated pretty quickly. I was able, I think I got a new credit card and I'm like, okay, I'm going to go take a trip. So I took a trip. I always wanted to see the Grand Canyon. So I went to the Grand Canyon. That didn't refresh me like I thought it would. Now I'm instead of just emotionally feeling alone at home. Now I'm out in another state alone, no one to talk to, nothing, you know, no real plans. I was at an event.

[00:10:33] I was staying in Las Vegas and my phone got lifted from me and I'm like, oh, this is like all, you know, so things are just bad. Right, right. Bad. Right. But I made it to the Grand Canyon and this is, this is wonderful. This is beautiful. And I'm. Is that how you felt? I appreciated the landscape. Yeah. Okay. I wasn't feeling better, but this is like life. The nature didn't make you feel as if. Right. And I was sitting just on, you know, a cliff for the most part. Right. And I remember just sitting there and just feeling really down and thinking like, I like science.

[00:11:02] And I started thinking what, if I jumped off, how fast would I be going when I eventually hit something? And so I picked up a rock and I threw it and I counted and I waited to hear it hit. And then I did the math. It's a little while. Yeah. And I was like, okay, so I'd be going. I don't remember what it was, but I was like, okay, like this is, this is doable. This is, this is, I think, I think this is what I'm going to do. So you were thinking about it in that moment. Yeah.

[00:11:27] And I just sat there for a while and then it occurred to me that it was one of my daughter's birthday that day. And I thought I can't, that can't be her memory on her birthday ever again. That was the day her dad died. Right. So I sat there for a while longer, kind of make sure that was really my decision. And obviously I, I got up and walked away from that, but I was, I sat there for a long while and I was. How long was the long while? A couple hours probably. I know it's probably how to remember. Yeah. Right.

[00:11:57] But it was a long while. I don't know that I really thought I had active ideation before that. Right. So that was. So you were like your late thirties at that point? Yeah. So it went 38. So until then, I mean, we have no choice but to summarize in part, but at a minimum, you did not think about ending your life. I didn't know, but it was just like life sucks. Life's hard. This is like, well, I want to ask both of you this. It's a tricky one because it might, it might sound a little bit judgy, but I promise you

[00:12:23] it's not, but I want, because I'm curious, some people go through stuff and they start thinking about ending their life. Some people go through stuff and perhaps externally they say, well, it's similar stuff, which obviously doesn't make a difference. And they don't consider suicide. I don't even know what the question is for you. And then I'm going to ask you, what do you think something shifted? Because that's a big leap, right? That's like one of the bigger leaps someone can take going from not thinking about it or should it come up? It's not really. And then sitting on the edge of a grand kite. Yeah.

[00:12:53] I mean, it could be a little bit of opportunity, right? Like to that point, I mean, I'm not, I didn't grow up in a family that owned firearms. I wasn't in a world where any kind of drugs, recreational, anything was available to me. You could argue that I didn't have thoughts, the thought capacity to think of a way to do that. Okay. Right. And then now I have this opportunity in this location and it pops in my head and I'm like,

[00:13:21] oh, hey, this is an opportunity. This is a choice I can make. Right. You know, it would have been a choice I could have made all for myself and only for me. Yeah. I mean, I don't know, but I think maybe there is a little bit of that. If you don't have the opportunity or the life experience that gives you ideas on how to end your own life, how can it manifest in your head necessarily? Right. Yeah. Right. And, but you need to get back and it's your daughter's birthday.

[00:13:50] So she doesn't have that memory. Right. But I asked Kelly the same question. So, but then the next day comes or whatever it is. Yeah. You're still on earth. Yeah. And it's like, how do you get through the day? Really? How do you, how do you go on? What helps if anything? At that point, nothing. Yeah. I just kind of kept going to a certain extent. That's what you do. Right. You get up and you get going. Right. And once I'm not at the Grand Canyon, I still don't have those opportunities. Yeah. I'm not going home to, to a firearm.

[00:14:17] I'm not going home to the idea of, you know, in a car or something. It doesn't, seems not in my head. I want it to be foolproof, right? Which I think is what everybody probably wants for me. Yeah. And one of the reasons I asked the question about the pink and purple pill. Really? Right. Yeah. What about you, Kelly? So the question just to be, because we're going in a few different directions, as we always do. I was curious about your experience with, as you were talking about when you were younger, as a teenager, you started to have thoughts about doing, and you tried.

[00:14:47] I know we're getting into mental illness stuff here, and I'll be careful with pathologizing. It's not my role at all. But do you think you were born with this kind of thing that might have led to trying? Because again, I say, I have like my brothers. In a million years, they wouldn't think about doing this. And it blows my mind, because I do. I often think about it, right? So I don't know if there's any way to know this or articulate this, but... I don't. I think some people are more predisposed to depression. Sure.

[00:15:13] I don't necessarily know how I felt the next couple of days when I was 17. Right. So I can't really tell you other than, yeah, it sucked that I woke up after taking so freaking much old school antidepressants. Right. Or so freaking many old school antidepressants. Yeah, yeah. Things got better. Different therapists, different meds, different psychiatrists, and built up, built up, built up. And there I was two years and two weeks ago. Wow. That was...

[00:15:42] We're summarizing everything I was about to do. You're welcome. Yeah, that was great. So yeah, because you go from 17. So you don't need to reveal your age, of course, but some time goes by. Decades. Quite a few years. A few years. Several years go by, and then you have a second attempt. And when we talked, what were you about? Oh, so you were like a year out from the attempt when we talked for the podcast. A year and a couple of months, yes. And JP, we would have been, it would have been several years. Several years. Yeah, a long time. So can we connect the dots somewhat? Can you connect the dots?

[00:16:11] Late 30s, Grand Canyon experience, daughter's birthday, come back, things are essentially the same. And three years later, more or less, you do attempt. Yes. So it's a little more interesting than that because I would argue that during the year of 2014, I called most of it the year of JP. The year of JP? The year of JP. I got into running. I was more fit. Yeah. I met a girl. Like I was, I was feeling pretty good.

[00:16:39] I think a lot of that was kind of masking, masking the depression for sure. You know, we all know the endorphins when you're falling in love and all those things, right? Crazy. I think it was November of 2014. I had been training all year to run my first half marathon. I ran my first half marathon. And then the day after that, I found myself with no goal. Uh-huh. Right? Like I had that goal. And I felt kind of lost. Just my, now my wife, the girl, she lived in Minnesota.

[00:17:05] I lived in Michigan, was always like, you know, sad sorrow, departures and things like that. And I just fell off a cliff really quickly. Mm-hmm. Did you, and did you know what moment was happening? Yeah. Was there like a sense of like, this is, this is pretty soon afterwards. Yeah. Because I, on my birthday in December 15th, I went into work and I said, hey, I think I need to take some time off to be able to focus on this. And I think that turned out to be a terrible decision because then I just found myself in

[00:17:33] my room watching TV with a pack of cinnamon rolls every day. Days after that, that I started looking into ways to end my life. You know, again, foolproof ways and mess free ways because I didn't want, again, my daughters to come in and find that kind of thing. Right? And then it was January 21st, 2015. So five weeks after I asked for that leave of absence from work, I just kind of woke up

[00:18:01] and, I mean, I planned that we could talk about that more, but that was, that morning I woke up, I took the girls to school and off I went. It was like, I said, I think I said on the show, it was like taking out the trash. Right. It was that matter of fact, like that's, that was just on the checklist to do that day. It was still in my life. Yeah. Yeah. And you did try. I did. And I ended up in an emergency room and I woke up. Well, there's no Grand Canyon in here in North Carolina. No, this was in Michigan. Okay. Yeah.

[00:18:30] It was medication. Medication? Yeah. Went to a hospital? Somehow I ended up in a hospital. I didn't take myself there. Okay. And I don't really have any memories of it. But yeah, I think I woke up a day later and I called the only phone number I knew, which was my friend Dave. Is he here? Yeah. Oh, nice showing up, Dave. But that was the only phone number I could remember. Yeah. And so I called him just to let someone know where I was. And you know, I was in the hospital, obviously I was, you know, recovery from that. And then.

[00:18:58] From, from ingestion? From ingestion. So they got that out of your system. Did they take you to another kind of hospital? Psych unit? Yeah. Psych unit after that. I don't remember any of that at all. My, my wife, my girlfriend at the time, she came from Minnesota, like right away. I think Dave probably called her or something shortly after, you know, just the kind of person she is. She's, her family's like, are you sure you want to be involved with this guy? And she's like, yeah, she just dropped everything and off she came. But there's a word for that. They're called keepers. Yeah. Good job. Yeah.

[00:19:29] So yeah, two people show up for you. Yeah. Yeah. Because I always ask like, who's around to talk to? Who's there for you? Out of curiosity. And sometimes it's not. So at least then you had a couple. But yeah, I don't remember that time at all. In hindsight, you don't even know how long we were at that psych unit? If it was a full week, I'd be surprised. I don't know. Yeah. And when we talked, you went through this thing and here we are today. So that was what? Nine? 10? 2015. Yeah. 10 years ago. 10 years ago. Do you still ID?

[00:19:59] Think about ending your life? Not that much anymore. Okay. I've found myself kind of incrementally, like you talked about after when you were 17, right? Little by little. And with the support of my wife, it's, you know, I found myself in a better place. But it's been a long time. Yeah. To get to today. Five, six, seven years. I don't think a day went by when I wasn't thinking about it.

[00:20:23] Anytime you went somewhere new, I was scoping it out to see, okay, is there a way I can kill myself here? Oh, there's a lot of stairs there. Can I? This is like front of? Everything. Yeah. It was first thought of everything. First thought. Everything. Thinking about it all day. All day, every day. So here's where my brain goes. I don't know if this is common. I may be the weird guy who has a podcast on suicide. I don't know how you live. Meaning, I don't know how you can be thinking about that. And I'm glad you're here, though, just to be very clear. This is why you're a badass.

[00:20:54] Because just to live through that, thinking about that every day is just astounding to me. Because I think about it. But it's not so many thoughts every day. You know, I say this on the podcast all the time. And I'm not ripping on CEOs or marathoners. But we give them a lot of credit for busting their hump and being strong and resilient. And I'm like, this is a type of resilience that I don't think people get nearly enough credit for is wanting to die and not doing it. There's a question here somewhere buried in there, which is how?

[00:21:22] Or is it just purely, we're meant to survive, so that's what I did. And at that point, it was all just my wife. She did a lot of heavy lifting. Kind of person that was supportive, but gave space. Wow. I don't know. I mean, there were so many times. I could think about the ideation, right? But it was just, well, no, Nora wouldn't want me to do that. Somebody else in your life, right? Yeah. So it was a daughter and then it was a wife. Mm-hmm. Hello. Thank you for waiting so patiently. Of course.

[00:21:51] So I don't remember what your question was. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, there were like five of them in there, so I'll get us back on track. So just to sort of summarize, 17 years old, when you get better, things are improving in your life, and then at some point not too long ago, you try for the second time in your life. So I know this is almost impossible, but I'm going to still ask, at what point in your life, 20s, 30s, whatever it is, where upon reflection, you're like, that was the beginning

[00:22:20] of what led me to that? The beginning of what led me to that was I was assistant director for a nonprofit for seven years. Uh-huh. A new executive director came in. Mm-hmm. And on Halloween, which y'all is a gay high holy day, and I was dressed up, she and the board chair came to me and said, we're eliminating your position effective immediately.

[00:22:46] I did not realize it at the time that it hit me so hard. And of course, it's 2019. We go into COVID. They gave me a good severance because I didn't do anything wrong. I got a really good severance, and I got another job, which was great. Like, an amazing executive director, great team, et cetera, et cetera. And my mental health just started fizzling.

[00:23:14] I started working a series of contract jobs, and I was up for one, and I was like, if I don't get this job, I'm just going to do it. And I talked to someone, like a very good friend who is here. He's in the audience. Oh, cool. Right now. And I was like, look, if I don't get this job, because this job is perfect for me, and I was like, okay, we need to figure out how to keep you from thinking like this. How to keep you, how to keep me around, basically. That's what this person said?

[00:23:44] Sort of. I don't remember the exact. Yeah, sure, sure. Just said it. Did you want to stay? No. That's it. No. I didn't want to stay. So that's an interesting space to be in, right? That's so good. Because I think there's an assumption that you, whomever wants to be here, and maybe what they're saying sometimes is like, if you get through this thing, you will want to be here, but right now you're in it. And I don't know where, for some people, I think that's accurate. For others, maybe not.

[00:24:10] So for you, when you were in that, and he says that, he or she or they. He. He. Yeah. He really helped me. I got through. I did get the job. Yeah. I lost the job in six weeks. All right. And so that night, what I remember is everything closing in. I feel, I remember dark. I remember the walls were closing in. You were in your home? Mm-hmm. I was in my apartment. And this is in locally? Yes. Mm-hmm.

[00:24:40] And started counting Xanax. I Googled. I'm still in the process for weight loss surgery, bariatric surgery. Yeah. But I Googled at the time. I was bouncing between 320 and 340. How much does it take to kill someone who weighs, how much Xanax does it take to kill someone who weighs 350 pounds? You put that into Google. Mm-hmm. Tell me, do you remember what Google did back? Because I'm pretty sure I know what they did. 988. 988, right, right, right, right. How do you feel about that? I don't feel great about 988 at all.

[00:25:08] But in that moment, I know we're going back. And are you calm when you're putting that into Google? Yes. Sure. Are you? Because I think there would be a... People might think it would feel intense and chaotic, and it may, but... So Google puts back... If you've ever done this, you know, and I have my opinions on it, but it is what it is. You know, a lot of things will pop up, intervention stuff, fine. But you actually weren't looking for that, at least in that moment. You were looking for the answer to your question.

[00:25:37] And then that was a specific amount of medication that could lead to your death. I... And I took 10 to 20 more than it said. Okay. I'm not sure exactly how much. We took artistic liberty with my story. I mean, one of the things we know for sure, there's no surprise it didn't work. Right. What happened when you said... So... JP went to a hospital, but doesn't remember much of it. I remember vividly. You do? The hospital. Two former friends found me. Okay. They no longer talked to me. There are about seven people who are no longer in my life.

[00:26:06] But half of the people in this room right now are here to support me. For sure. Which is amazing. And thank y'all. Thank y'all. Thank y'all. Yeah. Bottom of my heart. I went to Holly Hill for about three days. It was fine for me. I got out. Some people made some threats. People made threats when I got out. Former friends made threats when I got out. Okay. My suicide note got posted on Facebook. It's probably not what you wanted. No, of course not.

[00:26:32] The condition of my apartment, which was a mess. And it is called trash hoarding, which is a hoarding disorder. But it's OCD. And it's related to loss and grief and trauma that you haven't worked through. This is... You have that. I have that. Got it. So that explains my apartment. Right. Like they posted pictures of my apartment on social media. So this would be a formula how to take somebody who's in a lot of pain and do whatever you can to

[00:27:02] maybe... So they do it again. Yes. Took my car. That's just what that is. Took my car, rehomed a kitten, like everything. So I went back in, not to Holly Hill because I couldn't get in. Okay. Went to a place called Raleigh Oaks and I had better crisis management skills than the staff. By the way, none of these places are sponsoring the Suicentity Podcast to me. Right. If you know anybody there who wants to throw a few bucks off. You don't want Raleigh Oaks. I don't want to be affiliated with anything. I'm an independent guy and this is independent. It has to be. But yeah. So that was a better? Better or no? No, Raleigh Oaks was horrible. Why?

[00:27:32] Because the people don't have crisis management skills. I have better crisis management skills than most of the people who were there to keep us safe. They get paid for it. They get paid for it. Someone would fall. They wouldn't notice. They would make fun of the patients. I was basically no bother because all I ever... You had to even go ask for water to get water. Yeah. But that was the only thing I did. How long were you there? Three or four days. And... How long did it feel? Three or four years. Oh, man. Yeah. Because you were locked up.

[00:28:02] I was locked up. I did everything I was supposed to and I did a lot of coloring. What I will say is that they do talk to you when you come in and they find out what are your interests. So they did a whole music trivia thing in group one day when she found out I love music. Okay. We won. My team won. You won. Like 24 to 10 or something. So I don't want to rip on hospitals because some of them do great work. A lot of them. I've had a lot. And I understand for people that reach out to me and they're talking about, it skews

[00:28:32] towards people who've had probably negative experiences in hospitals, negative experiences with therapists. I'm aware of that. It's a self-selected group in part. But I have actually been pretty amazed and had two experiences myself in shorter term psych units once in about 10 years apart. My second one was at UNC in late 2018. And I have to tell you, I might have the lens of a guy who checks a lot of boxes for privilege. But I was really astounded by the poor care. And I think it was one of the reasons why I started the podcast.

[00:29:02] It didn't happen right away. You got to say it sometimes. I mean, because I don't want to dissuade people from going there. Sometimes they have no choice. We know that. I'm nervous being done here to talk about that. But if it was true for you, I think it's fair to talk about. It's fair to talk about. What did help me? Yeah. Partial hospitalization program at Triangle Springs. So you're in for half a day and you go home. Saved my ass.

[00:29:32] Like, y'all, I am not kidding. So if you didn't have that speculating, we'll never know. Do you think you're here right now? I think I'm here. I don't think I'm quite as... Like you're alive, but you may not be on this stage. Right. I don't think I would be quite as open and quite as believing that my story could make a difference for someone. Yeah. If I didn't have that. And I've been very lucky with the people who have stepped up. I'm very grateful all the time.

[00:29:59] You know, there's a lot of people that have nobody. And I have never been able... I don't do a lot of like... I don't collect data. Like, I remember ages. I just like to have the conversation. I think there's a few things that I've found are like, if this was or and or is someone's situation like... And nothing new here. Like, this isn't some original thought. But if you have somebody in your life, the right kind of person, and that is it. That is like maybe the difference. And if you have nobody, it's like...

[00:30:28] Oh, so you had people. Both of you. That's why I'm sharing that. And without it, it's maybe different. I did share with someone else how bad I was feeling. Yeah. The first time I got, I can't deal with this right now. The second time I got, if you were going to do it, you would have done it already. If you were going to do it, you would have done it already. Yes. Interesting. And I also, when I was originally preparing for weight loss surgery, I said that to a psychiatrist. Yes, I had this when I was 17.

[00:30:57] But I think if I were going to do it now, I would have already done it. I wouldn't still be here. Right. So I passed the psychiatric evaluation in May, and my attempt was mid-September. When you got out, let me see the second place. You said you were there for three or four days. You won the music trivia thing. Congrats. Thank you. You were suicidal still. Yes. But I felt better because a friend of mine would come see me and support me. She would be like, honey, I need to make some decisions. Are you okay with that?

[00:31:26] I was like, yes, I'm fine. Yeah. But she wasn't barreling into my life and doing all these wacky things that other people who claim to love me, but actually what they did that they thought would keep me safe caused me more harm. Yeah. I think that's not uncommon. It's not. I know in your case, you had this specific group of people that it was pretty intense. But I think sometimes it's more, what's the word, insidious?

[00:31:54] It's like, they mean well, presumably, let's hope. Otherwise, you probably wouldn't have them in your life. But it's still not helping. And sometimes it's harming. They wouldn't listen to me. And that's a tricky thing to talk about with somebody that means well. I have somebody in my life I think about where it's like, I know you mean well. They never asked me anything. Yeah. No psychiatrist said, hey, you cannot make your own decisions. Every psychiatrist I saw, every therapist I saw, you can make your own decisions. Yeah.

[00:32:21] They decided what they thought was best for me without asking me, without talking to me. It's called agency, I think. It's called agency. And they kept saying, you have agency. And I finally said, bullshit. The hell I don't. The hell I do. Y'all trying to take it away and just telling me I have agency does not mean I have agency. Of course not. Right, right, right. Yeah. So they wanted me to do certain things. And it wasn't anything that was doable or that my insurance would approve. Anything like that. You know, none of us are made of money.

[00:32:50] It sucked, but I think what's coming out of it is going to be better. I hope. I mean, you're on a stage talking about this in front of other human beings. It feels weird. I'm not much of a back patter kind of guy. I mean, I said you were both pretty bold, very bold and badass. That's about the most I'm going to go, but it is pretty amazing. My therapist. You're on a stage talking about this? My therapist is like, you're going on stage talking about it. You're doing it for the right damn reasons.

[00:33:19] And she's a badass. She's a badass too? JP, you said you had one attempt and two near attempts. One was before? They were both before. Oh, they were both before? Yeah. Okay. So in the last 10 years, you shed some of this, like, rarely IDA. Now. I asked you that earlier before we were on stage. Right. Yeah. Just don't. What helped you get to that spot? I know family. Anything else?

[00:33:46] I credit the medication that I got put on. It was kind of remarkable for me because, like I said, every day I was IDAing, right? Yeah. Every single time. Anything. Anything happened that was present in mind. Medication prescriber was like, hey, let's try something new. Let's try a newer generation of antidepressants. Really, it was like a week later. I woke up in the morning.

[00:34:14] It was remarkable to me that, hey, I don't feel like I want to kill myself. Did I? That must be remarkable. It's really an understatement. I can't imagine feeling that way. Well, again, that's still, I mean, the major depressive disorder is still with me. Yeah. Right? So it's not like I was like, yeah. Right, right. Right. You weren't like Richard Simmons. Right. But it was notable and remarkable to me that that thought wasn't in my head at that time. Right.

[00:34:41] Is there any sense for you of, I feel better. Hopefully, I'll continue to feel better. But damn, now I'm like really aware of how bad it was. For me, when I've been in phases where I'm feeling better, there's a sense of loss and grief of like, that was rough. And I'm glad I'm in a better place. But yeah. Lost on life a little bit. Maybe. Yeah. I mean, my biggest thoughts on that is kind of the regret of like, I realized one day

[00:35:08] how I, aside from the ideations and things, my life was about being a dad. Mm-hmm. But because of all the ideations and all the depressive thinking and the emotions tied up with that, I wasn't nearly as good a dad as I could have been, in my opinion. Right? Like, I wasn't always present because we're at a kid's soccer game and I'm thinking, wow, those trucks are going really fast down the road. So I wasn't able to be that.

[00:35:38] And my girls, they all love me. Mm-hmm. And, you know, that's never a question. And that's kind of what I'm dealing with now. You know, a little bit trying to make up for lost time. They're all adults now. And, you know, you can't, I can't get that soccer game back. Right? I can't be, I can't be the fun dad at the sleepover you had now. Whereas, you know, before I was, okay, you're all set. Okay, good. And daddy's going in his room. So you're aware of it the whole time? Not that.

[00:36:05] You were not, you were aware that you wanted to be the fun dad. Yeah, I couldn't. Yeah. Which sounds really hard. Yeah. I feel like I could talk about this for hours, but I feel like we should stop. I could just go on and on. When you tried, how many people learned of it? No, at least two because you referenced that. How open were you? Initially, not very open. Obviously, Dave knew my Nora, the girl. All right.

[00:36:33] She, she knew she wasn't my wife. And my now ex-wife, obviously she knew, but that was pretty much it. I found out later, my ex-wife ended up telling the oldest because she needed her help in running the family. And it was never came up. No. And it was a few years ago. My youngest turned 18 last March. So a year and a half ago. Like once they were all adults, I don't know why we have these thoughts in our head, right? But once they were all adults, I thought, okay, I'm going to have a conversation with

[00:37:03] them about what had happened. How was that? Well, they had all kind of figured it out. They knew. Yeah. I mean, they knew he was struggling, but didn't presumably know unless... I think the younger two, they were never told explicitly, but I think they knew. I mean, they knew of, we haven't talked about this, but I had a podcast for a long time about all of that. They knew that existed. It was, the information was there for them to get. I don't know if they ever saw that out, right? Because I can see that being a little uncomfortable situation. Yeah. And dad has a podcast. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:37:32] That's how you get it. Yeah. Okay, dad. As I got further away from it, and then I was able to tell more people close to me. Kind of funny that I was pretty open about talking about it to others. Like kind of in the vein of your podcast, right? Like I wanted to have, I wanted more voices telling those stories. Yeah. Is it in a sense, it's a little easier for you? Is it a little easier for you to do it with a stranger?

[00:38:00] It is because I'm not, because I carry kind of all this guilt and feeling less than, but there's no, I'm not disappointing anybody in this room by telling them this story. I certainly hope not. Right. But telling my mom. Right. It isn't, right? It's not disappointing to tell her that, but I know we're in a kind of a religious area a little bit, but I grew up Catholic, right? And there's a lot of like Catholic guilt and all of that, right? So there's a lot of, you know, be the good son.

[00:38:29] And it took a while for the story to come from me to everybody. Catholic. Yeah. Christian? Catholic. My boss calls me a recovering Catholic. Right. My rosary's in my purse and I only take communion. Somebody come up with a punchline to two Catholics and a Jew are on a stage talking about suicide. There you go. You finish it after during the Q&A. Get creative. Myths and misconceptions. And when I ask about myths, it could be around, it's particularly obviously around suicide

[00:38:59] and suicide related things, but that overlaps with so much stuff, right? Mental health and all kinds of things. And I'm asking what the ones are for you that are, when you hear it come up, it is just one of those, that is absolutely, I just absolutely not. Totally don't agree. Makes me really angry, whatever it is. People who talk about suicide or attempting suicide are not serious. Uh-huh.

[00:39:25] Um, the other thing would be that for anyone who attempts, you think the people who love you will stay, they probably won't. Oof. Yeah. I've always thought I had really good instinct. It was harsh and it sucked. And it still sucks because I want answers. Yeah. And you may not get them. I'm never going to get them. Ah. So just keep writing letters and burning them. Well, you bring up an interesting thing. So, so, well, both of them are interesting, but so someone's, and this is your, your experience,

[00:39:51] someone's talking about it and both, both can coexist because I talk about it a lot with people and some, there's a large group of human beings that you might label, or I think the appropriate way to label them is passive suicide ideas, right? And you can move into active or move elsewhere and things are just wonderful and you never think about it anymore. But there's this really large group of people, I think, and they talk about it and it's pretty like unlikely that they're going to do anything.

[00:40:18] And it's a tough question, but then we have to balance that with, Hey, if someone's talking about it, take them serious. And I don't have that. There's no real answer. What do you do? What do we do? Some people are thinking about it and they're going to act. Some people are talking about it and they're not. I'm trained in QPR question persuade refer. Uh-huh. And I find that that doesn't really work. I have thoughts on that. Yes. We probably have missing thoughts. Yeah. I think people just need to be taken seriously. Yeah. If you're hearing, if someone is saying to you, I don't want to be here anymore.

[00:40:48] Or I can't do it anymore. Hush. And I shared at lunch a couple of weeks. What do you want them to do? To understand that you're talking about it. You're probably serious. Uh-huh. You're probably serious if you're talking about it. And I'm not saying you need to call 911. I'm saying hang out with them and watch a movie and pop popcorn. Like that kind of stuff. So they're not alone. Years ago, my first apartment in Raleigh had a friend stay with me because he was scared to be by himself. And I was doing a lot of theater at the time.

[00:41:18] So I was coming in from RLT at like, you know, we would go out afterwards at like 11 o'clock at night. And he would just be chilling out, watching TV or asleep. He felt safer with me and just with me for about six weeks. And I was so happy I could do it. When you were really in it a couple years ago, what would have been the helpful things that could have potentially made you feel at least a little less shitty and a little less alone? What would have made me feel a little less shitty and a little less alone? Like my friend who was here was great. Part of it's me.

[00:41:48] Part of it's them. But take me seriously. And there are a couple of people I realized I should have been really direct with. I should have been on the phone with my boss. Like I realized that. I didn't realize it. What would have made me feel less alone was company. And I now I live with roommates now. I still feel very much alone. Yeah. Except on Sunday mornings. Loneliness, man. That's that's that is such a huge part of the conversations that I mean, almost always not always what you just said.

[00:42:15] I feel like in some ways it's probably harder for you and maybe other people. Like that's one of those things that people are probably less likely to say than I tried to kill myself is that I'm really lonely almost all the time. I'm really lonely. All week. I'm doing here on Sunday mornings. I'm really lonely. Yeah. And we do stuff like. Yeah. I do a lot of stuff. I sing in a group. I'm through it. But it's and that's OK that it's hard. Yeah. Sincerely believe that there is a reason I'm still here. What is it? I don't know. You don't know. I don't have a clue.

[00:42:45] I don't have a freaking clue. I remember talking to you. We had the question. I remember we were working together for this storytelling show, right, in Durham in February because it was Valentine's Day. That came up when we were working on your story. And it's the same. I don't know yet. I feel like you had something around doing this and sharing your story was a big part of your reason. I hate stigma. I hate stigma. I hate the stigma with mental health and mental illness and especially with suicide because God forbid that you talk about it. Right. No, that's not me. I'm going to talk about it.

[00:43:14] I will tell my story. I will help whoever I can. JP, you had a podcast. I did. Yeah, it was called Depressed Not Dead. Depressed Not Dead? Yeah. That's a pretty good name. And you talked about being depressed but not dead. I did. It started as kind of just an outlet for me to think through the things that were going on in my head. My friend Dave and I, we had had little goofy podcasts. It was a medium that I was familiar with. Journaling never worked for me. I'd journal something and I'd go back and read it the next day and I was like, this is

[00:43:43] garbage and throw it out. And I feel like if I put it out on the internet and I didn't advertise it anymore, I just put it out on the internet, then it exists and it's there. It's still there probably, right? Yeah, it is still there. That's how it works. So I did that for six years, seven years probably. I'm at five. I don't catch up. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, you will now. Yeah. Maybe. Yeah. And I remember I met a lot of nice people through that. Yeah. So yeah, the bigger one of one or two big myths that is BS.

[00:44:11] So I think one is that I don't know how big this is, but it's always in my head about a lot of different things. But someone who has, we've lived through this experience, but we don't have the same story. We don't have the same experience about it. We don't have the same steps that brought us to that point. It's not a one size fits all thing. Right. Right. And all of mental illness. And if we want to go further down into it, all of people who ideate. Yeah.

[00:44:40] And if we get into people who have tried to, you know, to end their life, it's all in a continuum. Everybody's got a different story. So what you might say over here is, is going to work. What you might say to me is not going to work. And I was thinking while you were, while you were talking, when it leading up to my attempt, like I firmly believe there is nothing anyone could have said. Yeah. That would have changed the outcome. Or done. Right. Yeah. It may have delayed it. Right. Right.

[00:45:10] But there was at that point in my way of thinking, and I had a therapist, my best favorite therapist I ever had up in Minnesota, he would argue that a suicide event is a psychotic birth. I remember we talked about this for the podcast. I had some strong feelings about it. At that point, that person is not thinking rational. By definition, he's suggesting that if somebody attempts to take their own life. Psychotic birth. No matter what. It is some kind of, yeah.

[00:45:40] But again, everything is on a continuum, right? Yeah, yeah. We're limited by words. Yeah. Okay. And so I think about that. It goes to the same thing. It's going to be a lot. Yeah. Yeah. Which is why he argued it, right? He said, this is not what everybody thinks. Right. Right. Sure. But I was not rationally thinking in those times, right? I was not in a sound mind situation. You know, a psychotic break isn't somebody, you know, ranting and raving running through the streets naked. Right. That's.

[00:46:09] It could be. That is a version of that on the continuum. Right. Sure. Right. So I don't know how to get that message out to say that we're all different. So. I figured you just did. And then the other thing is, and then you mentioned it, is like, we need to talk about it. It can't be taboo to not talk about. And if I, if I can steal your show just for a second. A hundred percent. And just say, it would be great if everyone here went out and talked about this show. Like talk to five people about it.

[00:46:36] Because maybe one of those people is going to talk to someone else about it. Yeah. We have to normalize the conversation so that we can talk about it. I think when people hear normalizing it, we have different definitions of what that is. Okay. So not me and you. Okay. I think when people talk about normalizing it, obviously I have a strong opinion about some of this stuff. The whole format of the podcast was started with a specific set of beliefs. I'm aware of biases that may get in the way.

[00:47:03] But typically when people talk about it, they're not talking about it with the person who's gone through the thing in a way where, you know, for example, if you're talking to somebody and they legitimately want to understand or they're curious, I presume, tell me if I'm wrong, please, that you feel that. And when they're not, you feel that too. And that's a continuum, of course. I think we do a remarkable job. I know I say in the intro, when we talk about this stuff, most of us are not very good at it.

[00:47:32] And that includes me because we're just don't open the space to talk about it. Right. Like we do all these things that get in the way and screw it up. Like the little platitudes. Like if you give me a platitude, we're done. Just that. And sure, I might be super sensitive guy, but those things do not express curiosity or wanting done. They just don't. They're at odds with it. When you go right for the quick fix or a solution, I'm going to get out. I'm not going to go on the rants here because I will go on a rant and it's not interesting and no one cares, but those get in the way. And those are often well-intentioned people.

[00:48:01] I love you. I want to help. Go see a doctor. It's not that bad. This is the major part of the problem. It's not just that people are unmedicated. That might be part of it. It might be. It might not just that they have access to guns. That's might be part. People suck at listening. Now I went on like a third of a rant. I'm not going to finish it, but I feel like it's incomplete. Anyway, I feel like how can we treat people? You're talking about the continuum if they don't connect and talk. How do you get that information?

[00:48:30] Unless you have a podcast, I guess. Well, but even then, it's again, self-selected. Yeah. Like who's looking up depressed, not dead or suicide or depressed podcast. Does your podcast still come up if people put depression in? Yeah. It does because that's a very – mine comes up because there's only a few podcasts that have suicide. And then – We just need to be able to talk about it, right? Like I can have a 25-minute conversation on the NBA with somebody and we get really in-depth on that. Right.

[00:48:58] And energetic and like curious about things. But if I want to talk about my depression, my suicide at town, I assume they're going to be uncomfortable with it. And then you stop talking to someone who might actually be receptive because you've learned. Right. And maybe they even have questions, but they feel like, oh, I shouldn't ask that question. If you get someone who's willing to speak, we need to be able to have that conversation. And it's very difficult to have that conversation. About many topics, this is not –

[00:49:26] Suicide is one of the more, I suppose, extreme ones though. But for sure. How many people do you have in your life? This might be tough because I know you have one person here. Oh, not him. You could have people in your life and you don't open up to them about some of this. For a myriad of reasons. So it's not a judgment on them. But how many people do you have in your life where you could talk about this stuff, ideating, suicide, and feel at a minimum not worse after the conversation or during the conversation? During the conversation? I think the only person I would be comfortable during the conversation would be my wife.

[00:49:56] I'm glad for that. I know that I could speak to Dave about anything that I want to do. That Dave? Yeah. But then we get into what's my comfort level. I feel like I'm imposing upon him. Right. Right. Yeah. And again, that's part of the same stigma, right? I'm stigmatizing the conversation that I don't want other people not to stigmatize. Oh, man. Yeah. It's complicated. Right. Yeah. How many people? I have one person and that's my therapist. A lot of people are round and I would reach out if I felt the need.

[00:50:26] Therapy's going pretty well. So I credit her with a lot of it. There's at least one person. I don't go into a lot of detail with my friends simply for the reaction. But I do get asked, how was your therapy? And that kind of thing. Going really well. We're talking and I will sometimes share, hey, we were talking about this. So that's great. There are people around. Yeah. Which is great. I know why you joined me today. I believe you said. But actually, I want to make sure I'm clear on it for both of you.

[00:50:52] Why did you choose to accept this invitation and talk with me again with people watching you about something that's rarely discussed? I mean, I would rather be up here singing show tunes. I hate you're pretty good at it. But okay, I have this feeling that this story is going to help someone. Okay. It might not be anyone in this room at this point. It's eventually going to help someone.

[00:51:22] And I will keep talking about it so that it does eventually help them. And piggybacking a little bit off what you both said, is there anything anybody, at least in this room, and you're a bit of a self-selected group. You're coming to something like this on a Sunday afternoon. I get it. Is there anything that somebody in this room can ask you that would be problematic? Not either of you. All right. What about you, JP? Why did you choose to talk today? For the same reason? Yeah. Have the story out there. And anywhere I can support you, I would support you with what you're doing with your podcast

[00:51:52] and everything. And I haven't been doing my show for a while now. We talked about that a little bit before, right? Because it has become kind of a laundry list of what did JP do in the past week since he last recorded. And it's not interesting. It's not compelling. But I'm just all about getting the voices out there and getting the stories out there. Because it is something that is not talked about enough. Pink and purple pill question. I asked them. It might have felt weird or uncomfortable. I get it. I'm going to ask you. And I want to ask you both.

[00:52:21] I think I asked you originally during our episode. And some time has gone by. So just to tell you again what that is. If I give you this pill, it's essentially a way to end your life without all the stuff of knowing it might not work, knowing you might be in a lot of pain, all the stuff that comes with people knowing that's how you died. When I lost my investment to suicide, I was in my late 20s. And I remember some people were like, people say shit. Fair or not. So this just takes it away.

[00:52:49] I asked you when I first talked to you, do you remember your answer? I don't know. What about today? So from today, I would say no. Do you chuck it or you save it? Oh, that's a good one. I would probably save it. Why? So one thing that we talked about before the show was that suicide door never closes, for me anyway. Yeah. One of the reasons why I think I ideated so much so strongly after the attempt was there

[00:53:17] was a level of comfort in knowing that, okay, that plan existed. Even though I'm not in that space right now, I think there probably would be a little bit of comfort in knowing, hey, that exists. And we don't know what tomorrow brings. We're hopeful that it's better than today and not as good as the day after. Sure. I don't know how often you listen to the podcast, but that's a common thing. People would say, I don't want to take it.

[00:53:47] Saving it is the biggest, most common. I don't collect this, but I just know that taking it and chucking it are about the same response rate and saving it more than half. And that's one of the major reasons why. It's actually a real comfort for people to know it's there. I'm paraphrasing a little bit, of course. What about you, Kelly? So when Sean and I originally talked on this podcast, my answer was, I'm giving you the pill back. That's still my answer. Can I take it back? I don't have it. You said nobody's ever done that before. I know.

[00:54:17] I don't want the responsibility of having it because I'm feeling okay right now. And I realize we could walk out and check the news and something sets us off. It can be anything. I just don't want the responsibility of having it. I just don't. Do you mean when you say responsibility, do you mean something can happen? I take it. There's no going back. So just if it's not around, got it. Makes sense. So you're the keeper of the pill. If I decide I want to go last. I'll keep the fake pill. It's not real.

[00:54:47] Well, this is awesome. This is great. Yeah? Yeah. What would you say if it weren't great? It would be awkward, wouldn't it? I can't see how it would have been awkward. Yeah. I can make things awkward. I'm good at it. I'm curious if we can transition or segue for anybody in this audience. The first question I want to ask, I have a microphone for this, right? This is like Phil Donahue type going on right now. I don't know if all of you guys are old enough to remember Phil Donahue, but he would walk around.

[00:55:12] By the way, I should also say before I ask this question again, Kelly helped me a lot in finding this space. It's through her church and did a lot of work with that. So thank you. And Mike is the tech genius. So thank you guys very, very much. That's how the tour worked. I sent that. Oh, yeah. Okay. So thank you. I'm aware of time.

[00:55:38] I just wanted to share with you all that a couple months ago when I had the idea for the tour, I just sent an email out to all my past guests. And I said, if you can help me find a place, here are the conditions, free, ideally. And I just waited to see you go back. And a lot of people wrote back. And I said, if you can find a place and you're willing to get on stage and talk to me, I'm going. And that was, I don't know, two, three months ago. So it made sense. I live in Chapel Hill. It made sense to start here.

[00:56:07] And we're going like, when I say we, it's me mostly. I do that a lot with the podcast. I act like we're this big organization. I'm like, we're, it's like, it's just a dude. Yeah, we're going to like 15, 16, maybe 17 cities. So it's going to be pretty cool. And this is the first one. And I'm wondering this question I asked about the pink and purple pill. Does anyone want to take the mic and answer that question? However you want. Hello, my name is Nancy. I'm an eight-year veteran of the United States Army. You know, we're going back many years.

[00:56:36] But when I was in, we were given a cyanide pill with our uniform because I was stationed overseas and trained that if we were Hellcat got caught prisoner of war, we would take the cyanide. That's always stuck with me. That was my training. That's always stuck with me. So I would take the pill. Wait, hang on. From you. You would take the pill for me? I would take it for me. But you're not fighting on the military anymore, right? No. No.

[00:57:03] So in your life now, living here in North Carolina, I give you that pill. I don't know much about you. Well, I'm currently, I'm a national certified peer support specialist. I have my own group every Monday, a support group for those who have attempted suicide. You do? Yes. It's my own. It's your own? Yes. I'm also, something that you may remember, someone reached out to you. I'm part of Living Beyond Suicide, Blueprint for Change. I thought that was only in California.

[00:57:30] It is, but the base is California, but I'm part of the storytelling committee and building of the program. In LA, there's a woman that I connected with me for the podcast. It's so funny. Like 95% of anybody who reaches out that's from an organization, I immediately are like, we're not going to get along. You don't get it. You'll never get it. And you're really right. And when you asked Kelly about how do we know if you're passive or whatever, when someone

[00:57:59] comes to me and they want to talk about suicide, there's a reason. There's usually a reason. In my head, I'm thinking of the three H's. Do you want help with the situation? Or do you want just to be heard? Yeah. Or just to sit there and be listened? Or do you want a hug? Yeah. And usually it's one of those three. And we can sit down and we can have the conversation. Do you ask them those specifically, explicitly? Most of the time. Yeah. Because I want to know what exactly are you...

[00:58:28] Because I'm not a mind reader. Right. I don't want to assume anything. I don't want to judge anything. Yeah. Why are you... There's a reason here. Let's talk about it. Yeah. Do you think in your experience, this is a bit of a loaded question, that people... Like if you're doing peer support work, presumably you're pretty good at listening to people. You know, you hear this a lot. Just listen. Do you think people understand what that means? Not really. Because I think as a society, as a human being, we go to fixing. We want to fix you. We do. We want to fix your pain.

[00:58:58] We don't want you to be in pain. How can I help? What can I do for you? Yeah. And I remember when I... You know, about four years ago, when I changed therapist, my first visit with her, I said, look, there's just going to be some things that you are not going to be able to fix. So let's just put that right out on the line. There's just some things that are not fixable. And now we have a good therapeutic relationship. Because that's how... You know, I tell her, we're going to talk about suicide.

[00:59:26] And if you're uncomfortable, then this is not going to work. There are a good number of therapists that aren't not comfortable. And also, it's fair or not, their hands are often tied, right? Yeah. Because if you go in a certain direction, that's what happened to me. I was just having a really shitty day. And my therapist thought it was necessary. I don't think he was right. But it doesn't matter. You know, their hands are tied, weirdly, because... Well, you might disagree. But if they do something and something happens, their ass is on the line. And it's like, all right, I'm going to be fake with this. It's fear-based. They're leading from fear-based. Cool.

[00:59:56] Thanks for sharing. Pink and purple. We're not limited to pink and purple. But I wanted to start there. And if you guys have any questions or anything, I'm just figuring out this. I love the Phil Donahue thing, by the way. I wish this was like my original job. Like a life would have gone in a different direction. So my name is Robin. And I would take the pill and I would put it in a safe that only could be open with me and my wife in case one of us got a terminal illness. It was going to be extraordinarily painful and gut-wrenching.

[01:00:22] You know, I would make sure it was a safe that both of us had to open. Hmm. Thanks. Sharon. Sure. Are we going pink-purple or a new idea question? No, the same question. I am so scared of that pill. And I feel like I want to destroy it. Mm-hmm. And I want to make sure it never gets invented. Whoa. Because... That's destroying the whole concept. I think a lot of the time... I mean, first of all, JP, I found that really interesting when you said

[01:00:50] when someone gets to that point, it's a type of psychotic break and they're not thinking logically. But I think sometimes the thread that keeps people here are all the complications. Like, what if? What if? I sometimes think that if we take away the complications and make it easy, it's almost so easy that we don't have a check and balance. And I think that that pill makes me afraid. I'm not saying I'm going to go in and get your whole stash and set it on fire,

[01:01:19] but I'm not saying I wouldn't. Hey, don't come near the stash. It's not real. Can you imagine? Come on. Anybody else want to answer that? Or have any other questions for JP, for Kelly, for me? I'm happy to share more if you like. I was curious if any of y'all have had any experience with psychedelics as part of your recovery? Not as part of my recovery, no. I was just thinking the same exact thing. But thank you for asking. I have not either.

[01:01:49] Have you? Yes. I take ketamine once every three weeks through the doctor. I was a hospital chaplain. I've also attempted multiple times. And part of taking a giant dose of ketamine is not thinking you're dying, but thinking, oh, I'm dead. And it teaches, it's really taught me death is nothing to fear, but it's nothing to expedite. Because it's always here. It's going to happen.

[01:02:19] Life is so freaking gradual. And it helps you be okay with that. And for me, it helps me deal with those feelings in a positive way. So this may sound a little weird for some, but I'm sure everyone heard about maternal thing. Well, I'm a certified death doula. Oh.

[01:02:41] I mainly sit with people who are transitioning because of natural reasons, who don't have family members to be with. And I am part of their transition so that they can make it as possible. And it's possible. So in doing that, I have a different, I guess you could say I have a different relationship with death. I'm not scared of it. You know, I've already made peace with it because, you know, we all know it's going to come.

[01:03:11] So it's just helping, you know, not that, you know, I am looking to hasten my deaths, but it's still in the background that, you know, I know that it's possible. And I've already made peace with that. Thank you. But you're a death doula? Damn, I gotta talk to you. I just wanted to say being a death doula is quite awesome. I'm a thanatology student and actually a graduate. Just got my master's.

[01:03:40] The work that you do is, my hat's off to you. The art of holding space. I'm a hospice volunteer as well and didn't think much of it before becoming a volunteer and studying thanatology. There's so much depth to it. You had mentioned, someone mentioned that you did, the three H's. One of them was being heard. Yeah. And that is so critical. So whether, you know, in this situation or really any situation, having someone who will listen. Yeah. It's hard.

[01:04:10] We don't learn it. Right. Most people do not learn this. Exactly. It's hard. Staying engaged as someone's ranting, as they're venting, you know, just maintaining that bond. Yeah. Or when things kick in that you might feel, some people, for some reason I don't feel this way typically. Like, you know, like afraid or uncomfortable. Like, there might be something larger here happening and you lending, you know. Oh. Yeah.

[01:04:37] So most of my work is around suicide and trauma that if someone is, that I'm working with. And, you know, when you come to the part where, who do you feel comfortable with? What's your support system? And so on and so forth. You know, it's somebody, you know, somebody will write out a bunch of names and everything, you know. And then the question I'll ask them is that, have you spoken to this person? Are they willing and do they have the capacity to help you at that time? You know, because we're all dealing with shit. Yeah. We're all dealing with shit.

[01:05:05] Some of us just don't want to hear it, you know. And even though it doesn't mean that we don't love you any less, we just don't have the capacity to sit with it, with you. So that's what I ask. It's like, you know, they're our family or they're our closest friends, but they have to be included in the conversation if you plan on talking to them. You have to ask them, are you willing to sit with me because I may have these dark thoughts, these dark times? And are you going to have that capacity?

[01:05:33] There was a conversation about, you know, we're all kind of trained well in the thought process that we want to fix you. And maybe there's an opportunity to educate people that listening to someone is a tool towards fixing and helping Karen. Right? It's not seen as- Just a means to something else. Right. Sometimes. Right. The thing. Yeah. And then another thought when you're up here and you asked Kelly if, you know, she wanted the pain to stop or she wanted to die. Yeah.

[01:06:02] From my perspective, those are the same thing. Yeah. Right. That's not an either or. Right. When I was in that situation, that is why I wanted to be dead. You know, you sit with folks who are transitioning, so you have a different opinion about death. The death part was never part of the equation. That was just the surefire way to make the pain stop. Yeah. Right.

[01:06:25] My name is Nicole, and I just want to say Kelly, JP, Sean, and everyone else who may have had similar experiences that I'm thankful you're here. And you have a purpose, many purposes unbeknownst to you. They come through stages in life. We're not to know all of our purposes at once. That's the whole process of our life journey. Right. And I am a mother of a daughter who is 32.

[01:06:54] She is suicidal ideator. Many, many attempts. Substance user. Extreme mental health. The list is as long as a novel. She was violently raped in a daycare at age seven, and that's where it started. It was like giving me a whole different child. And we know that the brain is so vulnerable at that age.

[01:07:19] So when that happened, when she came home from the daycare, I was like, who is this child? And so, and again, even with all through the years, I've been her advocate and support because she doesn't trust therapists because it's all in the approach.

[01:07:35] When you are speaking to somebody, anytime you talk about something and you, you know, you get that energy that somebody is going through something difficult or challenging or saying, I don't want to be here anymore. You have to take it seriously. But instead of coming at people, you need to invite them in that conversation. That trust is so super vital because once you get, gain that trust with that individual, then conversations can be had.

[01:08:05] But you need to let them lead those conversations. Like Kelly, like you said, you know, people were coming at you. Well, you do this or don't do that or you're not going to do that. They don't know. They don't understand. They can't relate. They've never been through what you've been through.

[01:08:18] People that do not have the experience, the field experience, the understanding are not going to be able to provide that support that you are seeking, which is why more support groups in the community need to evolve with people like myself who have had the field experience with all of this. Because my daughter is 32. She had a child late in her life. I spent five years fighting for custody.

[01:08:46] I now have custody of this seven-year-old who's critically ill. She might not live another month or a year or two years. She's got so many critical illnesses because she was born addicted, 22 weeks gestation, 11% chance of survival. The child has 14 specialists. So, I mean, I'm dealing with it. What I did was I had to make a choice. I was my daughter's advocate. But she's 32 years old, making her own decisions.

[01:09:13] But when she had the child and abusive and neglected the child, I had to make that choice. I have to save this child's life or put a little bit of longevity on her life. That severed my relationship with my daughter. She's now missing and she has relapsed. So, I have a lot of years of field experience relatable on that end. I'm not sure exactly what you mean by field experience. Yes. Because I'm definitely of the school of thought that – and I think we agree, but I'm just clarifying.

[01:09:43] Like, I'm never going to be pregnant. I sure as shit know it's painful. Oh, it is. I can be empathetic to somebody in pain. So, I want to understand what you're asking in terms of field experience. Does it feel as if someone has to have gone through something similar to engage in the conversation? No, no. I mean, they definitely have to be willing to not just scratch the – get to the root or at least dive deeper. Because most people just – they don't want to go past the surface.

[01:10:12] That's too much for them. When I say field experience, I've walked with my daughter, you know, through her journey every step of the way. And you learn so much, but you gain this whole different perspective on people and even body language, characteristics, you know, learning the signs of someone who could be in crisis, who may not feel comfortable speaking out about it. Yeah. And that's the side that I am on. Yeah.

[01:10:40] And so, it's very – it was a valuable lesson to me. Hard road, valuable lesson, necessary, and still moving forward. Why did you come here today? I came here today because I definitely wanted to hear what this platform was about. But I'm a real advocate for humanity, no matter what that is. Yeah, sure. And there's not enough support in communities, and unfortunately, there is not enough mental health support in this country.

[01:11:10] It is taking a backseat to everything. There's not enough places. Like, you know, I worked at Holly Hill. I know what really goes on at Holly Hill, which is why I'm not there anymore. UNC, great place. Depends on who you encounter with. Assholes. You can't just – In my experience. But anyway, that's all I'm doing. You could get somebody that's really good. Yeah, of course. I mean, when I was talking about it, it was more of an experience that I think all of us were dealing with. But sure, sure. Yeah, the mental health is so choppy.

[01:11:38] There's no program that is beginning to end. It's acute. We're going to triage you. Okay, you're good now? All right, 48, 72 hours? All right, you're out of here. It's not designed well. It's not. It's not designed well. And you can't even – you can't see the surface in 72 hours. I guarantee it. Such a long list of problems. Yes, it is. And I know people get upset. If you don't have a solution, don't talk about the problems. It's like, no, that's okay. You can bring up some problems. We don't have immediate solutions.

[01:12:05] You know, if you don't have the money – and reality is if enough people don't give a shit, good luck. So you have to do it in this little clusters with your group or your group. And that's not probably enough, but it's better than not that. Right, right. So why do people listen to this podcast? I honestly think the main reason is just like, oh, there's other – they logically know that there are other people struggling.

[01:12:29] But when you hear it, and hopefully it's facilitated decently, I do my best, you feel a little – even for a moment. Right. Or an hour. And so I commend you on that because you are bringing awareness to it. But the community, we need to be more involved. We need to be more engaged. We need to be able to have support systems put in for people to just talk. 100%. You don't have to have credentials behind your name to be a compassionate listener.

[01:12:58] I never really connected with the ideas around suicide prevention, which might startle some people. But part of it is about the way it's typically done. You know, call an aide and go to the hospital. Those can be life-saving, just to be clear. But that's the main messaging. It doesn't make me feel like my main thing is actually just talking about it without a particular outcome in mind. And recently, the guy up in Massachusetts, his name is Andy. He was a guest, and he's helping me in Kelly's role up in Massachusetts.

[01:13:25] And he says, Sean, what you do is prevention. I'm not saying that to pat myself on the back. It's more like I never really thought about it as, oh, right, I guess it makes sense if you're letting people talk and people can hear that. Because I think in the prevention model, typically, you can't do that. Whereas in my mind, even using that same word, maybe you're creating a space for people that they don't want to do that. I was going to talk about one thing, but my ADHD brain is all over the place. And I've messaged you several times about things that pop up in my Facebook feed and events that happened.

[01:13:56] The past seven years have been hell for me, basically because I didn't know I was autistic or anything like that. I was going through burnout. No one knew what was going on with me until five years after I started seeking help. I've been in and out of hospitals. I have substance abuse issues. I have a lot of stuff. And I grew up with a mother who had suicide notes around the house. Notes. Notes.

[01:14:22] And she had emails that I have from her telling that she wants to kill herself tonight or stuff like that. My relationship with my husband started with his ex committing suicide because he was going to leave him for me. I've also had people say, yes, go do it because they were mad at me for reasons. Right. But I think the one thing I want to say is also autistic adults are nine times more likely to die by suicide.

[01:14:48] Part of it's because there's not enough knowledge about it and their mental health system just sucks. Unless you're really rich. And even then. I went to Triangle Springs for the three times. First time was awful because I didn't at that point I didn't know I was autistic and they would not tell me what was going on. I had no agency. It was just do this, do this and punishing me without telling me that there was a rule. Second time, great time, she was the one who diagnosed me with ADHD. And that was like a miracle.

[01:15:18] She finally listened to me, believed me. That has changed my life. Psychiatrist took me off it because he thought I was just trying to get high. And then I had an attempt. Got back on the proper meds. But still it was, I could process with you. Sure. Thank you for sharing that. Yeah, thanks for sharing. Brian, thank you. I'm Lindsay. Sorry, I've never used a mic before. You're good. I had a question about coping strategies, specifically maladaptive ones. I'm not sure who this would be best suited for, so I'll ask all of you.

[01:15:48] I have been in and out of a lot of different types of treatment programs. And I found that the ones more specifically geared towards helping mental health are very focused on do whatever you need to to stay alive. And it doesn't really matter what that is. So they would prefer you journal and exercise and meditate. But if it's either do something stupid or kill yourself, they want you to do something stupid.

[01:16:11] But then the substance treatments like NA meetings and rehabs are very focused on no matter what you do, do not relapse. Yeah. It does not matter. Do not go back to it. So I guess I'm just I'm curious if any of you have thoughts on trying to find a balance for those two, because that's been tough. I lean on my hobbies a lot. Like I will. I'm trying to learn new songs for a group I sing with for a holiday performance. I will get in the car and sing at the top of my lungs.

[01:16:38] Other coping strategies are doing things like this, like knowing Sean has our back. He's not going to put us in any weird situation. And it's it's not easy. Oh, that's tricky. Right. The roadmap out is perspective and opportunity. Right. Opportunity for whatever it is. If it's if it's therapy that, you know, the right therapist, if it's the right medication, but you have to have the opportunity to get there. Right. Or in some situations, it could just be perspective. Right.

[01:17:08] Like, you know, ray of light shines on you. Like, oh, my gosh, I never thought about it this way. You know, the opposite of me, you know, sitting on the rim at the Grand Canyon, like the ray of light was, hey, go ahead and jump. Maybe the ray of light is going to be, oh, my gosh, what about this? And then you start moving forward. Or so whatever that is, whatever that distraction is, that's going to give you time to get that perspective. If it's going to give you time to meet the right therapist.

[01:17:36] So bump into the right person in the produce aisle at the grocery store who is going to say words in an order that you had not heard before. That gives you some perspective or some meaning or here's a business. Here's a card of my therapist could be anything. Right. So whatever that is, that's going to get you another day down the road. You know, on my podcast, I always say sometimes you just got to go to the next breath. And that's kind of. That's 12-step-y sounding. It is a little bit. But. Which is fine. And we touched on it a little bit.

[01:18:05] But that's like the whole hospitalization thing. You don't get hospitalized to be cured. Hollywood would like us to think that. Right. Like you go in for three days and you come out and you're like, oh, everything's wonderful. But you go to the hospital to get you through that time. It's triage. Someone said triage. Those particular kinds of hospitalization. Yes. Yeah. Right. I mean, long term is different. Right. But what we're talking about here is, you know, we're suicidal. We need to. That's what they're trying to do.

[01:18:35] And that's why the care is so crappy. Because their mission statement is to keep you alive until you're stable and you can go back out. Right. And kick you back into play. Whatever that is. If it's doing something silly, do something silly. If it's not dangerous to you or someone else. Start a podcast. If it's journal. If it's. You guys are so healthy sounding. Right. It's scary, right? Right. I have a different point of view, but I'm not a doctor at all. Like I stay in my lane as much as I can. But I went to an AA meeting a couple months ago.

[01:19:05] I shared this with one or two people here. With a couple of friends who are hardcore and they're cool about it. Like they don't preach. It's just they invited me. They know I'm a drinker. I'm a drinker. So I went to this meeting and it was a standard 12-step meeting. And a couple weeks ago by and they were like softly asking. You're like, what do you think? Do you want to go back? And I was like, no. Why not? I said, because one, I want to keep drinking. Like I actually wanted to drink. Two, you guys are just trying to get better so much. I don't know how I feel about that.

[01:19:32] I don't make any claims that I'm like in some place that other people aren't. I talk about like, hey, I sometimes think about ending my life. Unlikely I'm going to try, but that's not, that's a real thing. So I don't really think I'm answering your question. But I know personally for me, if that shit gets me through, I'm not harming anybody else. You know how I feel. But it's a problem because I mean, who knows? I might be destroying what is the liver or the kidneys, the liver. That's not in the same place it was five years ago. I know that. You know, I had issues with drugs.

[01:20:03] I know I'm doing that a lot. Life's going to get shitty real fast. Am I enjoying it when it's all mom? I mean, yeah, sure. That's why people do it. I wish I had a smooth answer, man. What do you do? How do you get through the day? I'm trying to find better ways than what I'm currently doing. But if the goal is to be better, if that is your stated goal, you have to try to stay away from the destructive silliness. Right.

[01:20:29] Because that's only going to take your step backwards instead of a step forward. You can stay where you are and still be able to move forward, but you don't want to step back and then have to go up again. You know, working with addiction, you know, I get to say I'm not perfect. I make mistakes, but I can't really go, you know, crucify myself. And, you know, listening to those words in the back of my head telling me that I'm no good and everything, for me, it's not if, it's when.

[01:20:56] And I have to give myself grace because I'm not, you know, I'm not perfect. And I know it will happen, but I know that I've been there before. I've worked myself from it and I can do it again. But if we try for perfectionism, just give yourself things. I'll be quick. No, no, sure. Because I have to go take a quiz. My name is Simone. I'm actually in school. I'm going into my eighth week of my mental counseling program. And I first want to say thank you to everybody that shared.

[01:21:25] I know a lot of the times, at least when I was growing up, the idea around people committing suicide was that, or even thinking about it, they were weak. And you guys sitting up here sharing, everybody in the audience sharing. I don't know how many of you, I know some of you know each other, but as for me, I know nobody in here. And for you guys to share your stories, your experiences, I appreciate that. Two, this was technically a part of an assignment. It was very loose.

[01:21:55] And she said, I want you to go out and get some real life stuff. I need 10 hours of it, however you find it. Are we the stuff? You're part of the stuff. Am I part of the stuff? Yeah, you were part of the stuff. Can I remember how I came across it? But I was like, okay, clear my calendar, but now I got to go take my quiz so that I could be here.

[01:22:16] And coming technically on both sides, but now here specifically because I'm on the practitioner side of it or in practice, just hearing things like, do you need to be heard? Do you need a hug? Do you need help? Because I think there are ideals around what I am essentially supposed to do, which is help and fix. And you might just want to come here and I would say pop your shit. And you just might need to get it off. And that might be the next step to whatever the case may be.

[01:22:46] So I'm also unlearning things that have been presented to me for so long that have given me my feelings on all of this in general as I'm relearning better ways to be there and support people. So again, thank you all because this is helpful. Thanks for being here. Okay, a little bit of an awkward transition, but you do know that I am trying to raise some funds. There's a QR code back there somewhere. You can deduct it from your taxes.

[01:23:15] But I want to just tell you real quick where it's going and it connects to the second thing I want to share with you. So it's really hard to raise money on suicide stuff unless you take certain angles. So the tour isn't cheap. So that's one thing. I'm in a weird spot. When I started, it's just summer of 2020. In the beginning, I kind of had a hustle. Friend or friend of a friend or ask the administrator of a Facebook group, hey, can I post this? And some people came.

[01:23:41] But it's been years and I don't have to do anything because enough people want to reach out and talk. So much. I'm months. So if I talk to you today, it'll be months before it comes out, which actually sucks. So this happens with some businesses or organizations you can't grow because I do the editing. And it's a lot of work. So the more people that reach out, the more I'm just overwhelmed and I can't literally. So it's a weird spot to be in. I have all these ideas.

[01:24:07] I'm answering basically where funding goes because I think people are curious about that. The point being if I were able to outsource that damn editing, I'd probably be able to double the conversations and have a lot more, which would be wonderful. The other part, more important, this is a tour and the goal was also to try to capture it as much as I could. That's why this is the first stop and it's amazing because of you guys. Like this has all been recorded and it's like professional. This is not going to be the way it is for most stops. Some of them are in a place like this.

[01:24:34] Some of them, why I want it, I'm going to be in a barn, an animal sanctuary, coffee shop, like all over. Whatever the person there decided, I'm down with. But I want to capture it as much as I can. And why that matters and how it's relevant to you is anyone who's willing, as we sort of transition or segue to this is over, who would be willing somewhere in this space to just let me talk to them one-on-one for 30 seconds or a minute and record it. And it could be why you came here. I'm not going to put any pressure.

[01:25:03] Like you don't have to say like, I learned three amazing things. No. I just want to know kind of why you came or what's your connection to this, whatever comes up. And then one day in a few months from now, I'll find an editor and they can go through this dozens of hours and make something pretty and nice. Anyone who's open to that, I would appreciate it. It'll be real quick. Do you guys have any other things, anything else you want to share or talk about or connect on? Yes, ma'am.

[01:25:27] I just want to acknowledge, hold a disclosure about Brendan Johnson before we started this podcast and I have been moving along. Yeah. For my own personal reasons and also because of the intangible concept that maybe draws many of us to this, which is the challenge to what you said earlier, Sean, about the fact that you say we, there's just one guy. It's mostly one guy. It's mostly one guy. I put some on. With the physical showing up and logistics of things.

[01:25:56] I've had some help. I've had some help for this event, for sure. Even you could think about when you say we, there's a royal we of supporters that you have, including the people who are guests. Totally. And tell people.

[01:26:09] So I encourage you to feel confident to use the word we because if you have people, some of whom we're just meeting today and others who have known you longer, but believe in a mission that is drawing other people to cut right through that taboo because that's what would save people. I love from dating their lives. Yeah. That is why it can be the beauty of this.

[01:26:33] So I just would challenge you to think of the rest of us as being part of your royal we when you go on. Is that what they say? Royal we? Is that dating from like England back in the morning? I think so. Wow. Yeah. I didn't mean to deflect. Yeah. I appreciate you sharing that. Yeah. So thanks again, y'all. I appreciate you being here. Yeah. The two of you. Thanks, Nia. Nice to have to. You guys have been, I've been able to move a little bit. You're sitting up there in the light. So let's just stop. Yeah, we're done.

[01:27:03] Thanks again, everyone. Let's be back there. Appreciate it. As always, thanks so much for listening and all of your support. Special thanks to JP and Kelly and everybody who showed up at the rally event. I really appreciate it. Thanks for talking. Thanks for participating. If you are a suicide attempt survivor or ideator and you'd like to talk, please reach out. Hello at suicidenoted.com. Remember, we've got a weekly poll on Spotify.

[01:27:32] And of course, you can rate us on Apple. Five stars if you think we are worthy of that, of course. Thanks. And that's all for this week's episode. Stay strong. Do the best you can. I'll talk to you soon.