Survivor Update #36: M 👓

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_03] I feel like I almost have this complex where I feel like I have to... I've had situations where I'm like, okay, I have to finish this book because I really want to die. And it's like, if I help enough people, then when is the tally high enough that says, okay, you've done enough work with what you've been through?

[00:00:38] [SPEAKER_00] Hey there, my name is Sean Wellington and this is Suicide Noted. On this podcast, I talk with suicide attempt survivors and ideators so that we can hear their stories. Every year around the world, millions of people try to take their own lives. Many millions.

[00:00:51] [SPEAKER_02] And we almost never talk about it. We certainly don't talk about it nearly enough. And when we do talk about it, when we have conversations, particularly with people in pain, most of us are not very good at it.

[00:01:01] [SPEAKER_00] In fact, most of us are very bad at it. And that is why one of my goals with this podcast is to have more of them, those conversations, and hopefully better conversations with survivors, in large part to help more people in more places, hopefully feel a little less shitty and a little less alone. And if you're a survivor and you want to talk, please reach out. Hello at SuicideNoted.com. I'd love to talk with you. I typically share a few other things about this podcast, other projects, ways to help out, ways to support.

[00:01:28] [SPEAKER_00] The handful of you that do that, that have given a financial contribution, maybe you're helping out with transcribing. Thank you very much. But by and large, I think I'm mostly wasting my breath when I keep saying this. It feels like it just doesn't make a difference. So I'm going to skip that part. Reminding you all that we do talk about suicide on this podcast. Of course we do. That's what it's all about. My guests and I don't hold back. That is with intention. It may not be a good fit for everybody.

[00:01:55] [SPEAKER_00] So please take that into account before you listen or as you listen, but I do hope you listen because there is so much to learn. Today I am talking with Em again. Yes, this is an update episode. Em lives in Iowa and she is a suicide attempt survivor.

[00:02:11] [SPEAKER_03] What's up Em? Yeah. Long time no talk.

[00:02:15] [SPEAKER_02] In like a year, I'd say.

[00:02:16] [SPEAKER_03] It has been about a year. Yeah. What about you? You're in Mexico now? Full time?

[00:02:21] [SPEAKER_02] As in Mexico. No, not just, well, full time, but not necessarily permanently. Not a lot to be determined. Not necessarily the script I wrote. Are you living the script you would have written?

[00:02:32] [SPEAKER_04] No, definitely not.

[00:02:33] [SPEAKER_02] One of the posts. So it's cool to see you again. And so like we do these updates. Sometimes it's a year. Sometimes it's, I think it's been a couple of years since we first talked.

[00:02:41] [SPEAKER_03] It's been a couple of years, but it wasn't posted until December. So, but we recorded it in July. Yeah.

[00:02:46] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes it takes a while. So for the listener, if they want to listen to your, so go back to 2024. It's very easy to find when you scroll back and then you will see Em in Iowa. We had a good conversation. I listened back only to the intro and I'm not going to play it, but here's the gist of it. It's something like, I'm not going to ask for help because I don't think there's anybody who could help me. Is that still true? Is that still true?

[00:03:14] [SPEAKER_03] That is the absolute whole way I navigate life is like, yes, I have suicidal thoughts and yes, sometimes I'm planning. And if it gets to that point, it gets to that point because I don't think there's anyone I would tell or could tell even my own therapist. Like, and I think they know that too. I don't want to go to the hospital again. I don't think that being hospitalized would even do anything.

[00:03:38] [SPEAKER_03] Um, I've been through that thing enough times to know that. So it is a really lonely feeling, but it feels like necessary for ways that are hard to articulate.

[00:03:50] [SPEAKER_02] That's what I was going to ask about to ask you about it. And I'm like, yeah, but it's going to be hard to articulate.

[00:03:55] [SPEAKER_03] I wouldn't wish this on anyone. Yeah.

[00:03:57] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. And I'm not suggesting our experiences are the same, but I know what it's like to not to get to the point where it's like either. I don't want to tell you. I don't trust you. It won't do any good. Heard it all before. Whatever. Right. I think people think some people think the main reason they don't talk is because it's all about shame and fear. I'm like, there's some truth to that for sure. But there's other things going on as well that I think are less talked about.

[00:04:25] [SPEAKER_02] Like how, how, how those people shut your ass down when you did try to talk.

[00:04:29] [SPEAKER_03] And I also feel like as I've gotten older, it's one of those dynamics where, how do I explain it?

[00:04:35] [SPEAKER_02] Well, you, you said it was going to be hard to articulate.

[00:04:37] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. You know what you want. I feel like.

[00:04:39] [SPEAKER_02] What do you want?

[00:04:40] [SPEAKER_03] As you, as you get older, as you've had suicidal thoughts for more than a decade, like I have, like you just kind of know the reason why your brain keeps going back to it. And so that makes you pretty sure that that's probably what you want. You just don't really want to be engaging with people who might stop you.

[00:04:57] [SPEAKER_02] You're saying you're suicidal.

[00:04:59] [SPEAKER_03] Yes. I've been suicidal for years. Yeah.

[00:05:02] [SPEAKER_02] Right. You were suicidal when we talked and I imagine like, I would say about 90 something percent of people, it's not the exact same level every day, every moment. It kind of like goes up and down. Interestingly, by the way, I should add, one of the things you said is you don't want to return to a hospital and you work in a hospital. There's a word in English language called irony.

[00:05:21] [SPEAKER_03] I know my, my therapist talked to me about it yesterday. She's like, my get a different job, get a different job, especially that hospital. Cause I've been hospitalized there. Oh, you hospitalized the same hospital you work at during traumatic incidences in my life. So.

[00:05:37] [SPEAKER_02] But do you work in like the same department?

[00:05:38] [SPEAKER_03] I work in the lab. So I interact with every department in the hospital.

[00:05:42] [SPEAKER_02] All right. So they know you though. So when you came in under duress, they weren't, you weren't strangers to them. Some of them.

[00:05:48] [SPEAKER_03] Well, no, I wasn't working when I was there as a patient. I was a teenager. It was when I got diagnosed with my eating disorder and I was in the African intensive care unit. So all of those memories are many years removed. However, it's the same thing that you look at every single day when you go into the hospital. I can still remember my dad parking the car the day that we went there and like dropping us off and like what it all looked like. And I don't know. I mean, it's, I,

[00:06:18] [SPEAKER_03] I wanted to get that job at that hospital because I wanted to give back so badly. That's why I feel passionate about where I work because I know that I wanted that for so many years. And now that I am there trying to give back, it's just a matter of trying to determine if it's a, an asset or a liability.

[00:06:36] [SPEAKER_02] I mean, I almost never do this. Maybe the answer is just a different hospital.

[00:06:39] [SPEAKER_03] Maybe. And I work at one of the biggest hospitals. So it's like fast paced adrenaline. Like, I feel like I would be bored at a smaller hospital.

[00:06:46] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, probably so. Maybe. Have you been back to a hospital since we talked?

[00:06:50] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. I've had two really bad relapses since we first recorded. And I recently was discharged from seven months in treatment.

[00:06:59] [SPEAKER_02] In patient?

[00:07:01] [SPEAKER_03] Different levels of care. I spent about a hundred days in 24 hour care and then another hundred days in a partial hospitalization program. But.

[00:07:09] [SPEAKER_02] How do you keep your job though when you're off for a hundred days?

[00:07:11] [SPEAKER_03] My boss is super supportive. Like she saw the passion for the lab that I have. And I'm so grateful to have her because I go to work every day and I feel like I'm going to school and I'm like riding the magic school bus and just like hearing all this stuff about science. And it makes me really happy. I mean, when I'm not also triggered, I enjoy helping my patients. I think one of my biggest fears is like outliving my usefulness and like. You're, what are you like 25? I'm 27 now.

[00:07:38] [SPEAKER_02] Oh, you aged since we talked? Did I have a, did I have a memoir title for you? Did we even talk about it?

[00:07:45] [SPEAKER_03] You did. It was called Fistfights with God.

[00:07:46] [SPEAKER_02] I don't dislike it.

[00:07:48] [SPEAKER_03] Because I told you about how contemplating suicide feels like getting in a fistfight with God.

[00:07:54] [SPEAKER_02] Did you write the book?

[00:07:55] [SPEAKER_03] No. I've come up with a few book ideas.

[00:07:58] [SPEAKER_02] Like there's a lot to catching up to do. So what have you thought about in the last couple of years with respect to either titles or.

[00:08:04] [SPEAKER_03] One that I really wanted to write was kind of just essentially things I wish people had told me before I went to eating disorder treatment or started any sort of mental health treatment in general. I was only 14. You don't get an instruction book when you get a wristband into the psych ward, you know? I could come up with so many chapters on things I wish I would have known that would have, A, made my treatment more meaningful the first time

[00:08:31] [SPEAKER_03] and also would have just made things a little bit more comfortable if that's possible and like less scary.

[00:08:39] [SPEAKER_02] Two questions. One, like would it be slightly sarcastic or like straightforward?

[00:08:45] [SPEAKER_03] Kind of straightforward.

[00:08:46] [SPEAKER_02] And then like if you had, let's say, 10 chapters, whatever it is, do you have enough content to fill it?

[00:08:50] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah, I think so. Yeah.

[00:08:52] [SPEAKER_02] Let me tell you something right now. That's a good fucking book.

[00:08:55] [SPEAKER_03] I mean, there might be some sarcasm in there too.

[00:08:57] [SPEAKER_02] I would encourage you to include that because I love sarcasm, but that's actually a really, really good idea. I would probably research a little bit of what's out there already. Not that you shouldn't do it if something's out there because you could do it your way or better. But like people do not understand that you don't get a handbook or a manual or even a one pager. I've had only two short term studies. Like that's why you're writing the book and I'm not. But like it's like, what the fuck is going on?

[00:09:23] [SPEAKER_02] There needs a title. The straightforward one was just like kind of what you said, right? Like things I wish I knew before dot, dot, dot. Is it a little boring maybe? Yeah. But sometimes that's exactly what people need because they just need the factual information.

[00:09:37] [SPEAKER_03] I was also kind of thinking of including like some sort of take on the doctor said versus what actually happened.

[00:09:44] [SPEAKER_02] Is that a chapter or is that the book?

[00:09:46] [SPEAKER_03] Maybe like a section. I really don't know. There's this really good. It's a poetry channel on YouTube. It's this one like spoken word called in the psych ward says. And it's all about how the psych ward as like the entity is like saying like, we're here to help you. These rules are all just for your benefit. And while also like kind of sarcastically alluding to like all the not so great things that the psych ward does.

[00:10:14] [SPEAKER_02] What they're doing is performing care. You're going through the motions of care. Not all. I mean, let's be honest. There are probably some very good hospitals with amazing people, but there's just far too many that aren't that. And in some fields or industries, that's passable, but not this one. You don't. You'll always have the outlier, but like it shouldn't be like 60%. It should be like 2%.

[00:10:40] [SPEAKER_02] That's a cool book, dude. I hope you do that. Now, there would be some naysayers that say if you write that book, some people who need help won't go. I sometimes say fuck the naysayers, but what would you say?

[00:10:50] [SPEAKER_03] I think it kind of depends. I mean, on the one hand, we live in a world where, or at least a country, where sometimes it doesn't matter what they want. The patient wants you can be involuntarily hospitalized.

[00:11:03] [SPEAKER_02] So it's all the time.

[00:11:05] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. So it may not necessarily deter someone, but I think if they're picking up that book to read it, I hope to include an accurate picture of what treatment is like, which also means both pros and cons.

[00:11:19] [SPEAKER_02] I really think that's a fucking amazing idea, Matt. And I'm not a nice person. I mean, at least I'm not that complimentary. Like I don't dole out compliments easily. Fist fights with God is not a bad memoir title. I just, I have to pat myself on the back sometimes. It's been a while since I heard that. I'm thinking, Sean, you are good at what you do.

[00:11:39] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. You'll have to go back and listen to it.

[00:11:42] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. Like in a bubble bath and enjoy the moment. Are you still having fist fights with God is the question?

[00:11:48] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah, definitely.

[00:11:49] [SPEAKER_02] Do you think you'll have fist fights with God until the end of your days?

[00:11:52] [SPEAKER_03] I think that's kind of human nature, unfortunately or fortunately.

[00:11:57] [SPEAKER_01] I don't know. Do you think it is for everybody?

[00:11:58] [SPEAKER_03] Not in the sense of suicide.

[00:12:00] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:12:01] [SPEAKER_03] But I think as much as people can portray that everything's good and they have no questions for God or no feelings of confusion about why things are the way they are.

[00:12:14] [SPEAKER_04] Sure.

[00:12:15] [SPEAKER_03] I bet they're still going to God and being like, why are you doing this? I'm angry right now or I'm confused or I need an explanation on this. Like it may not always be about suicide. Sure. It may not be like a violent fist fight. That sounds very violent, but like definitely disagreeing sometimes.

[00:12:34] [SPEAKER_02] Like a pushing match.

[00:12:36] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. Because he's sovereign and we're not, so we can't see everything that he's seen.

[00:12:41] [SPEAKER_02] So just to be clear, if you're talking in the literal or not, do you have faith in God?

[00:12:46] [SPEAKER_03] I do. Yeah. I am Christian.

[00:12:48] [SPEAKER_02] Cool. So if it were me and you can challenge me for being a little bit unfair and pushing back a little too hard. I don't, I never mean disrespect, but like I would be pissed with God. So some people would stop believing. You still believe in a God that has made your life or let me use my words carefully or correct them for me. Not so great. How does that, how do you reconcile those two things?

[00:13:14] [SPEAKER_03] First I'll say it's not easy. In the darkest of moments, I feel like I'm, it's not so much anymore sounding like, why is this happening to me? But more so like, why are you making me stay? Why is this so important? What's so important about my life that I need to be here? I feel like he shows me in little moments sometimes being able to make one of my patients smile, having another idea for a book I could write.

[00:13:37] [SPEAKER_01] Hold on to that thought. We'll go back.

[00:13:39] [SPEAKER_02] This is more than one book?

[00:13:41] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah, I do have a few ideas.

[00:13:43] [SPEAKER_02] Okay. You were not done with that part of the conversation, but I cut you off. I apologize. You were saying something about the moments in which he does something, making a patient smile, an idea for a book, while simultaneously what?

[00:13:56] [SPEAKER_03] I simultaneously love it and hate it when that happens because I'm like, on the one hand, I'm like, wow, this is cool. I'm actually doing something important or to help someone else. And then on the other hand, I'm like, goodness gracious, does this mean I have to stay?

[00:14:14] Like...

[00:14:15] [SPEAKER_02] So fascinating. And not in fascinating and like fascinating, just like, wow, it's just interesting to me. Tell me a little bit more about your writing, memoir or otherwise.

[00:14:24] [SPEAKER_03] So I originally set out to write like a traditional memoir and I started working on that 2021-ish. I believe I mentioned in our first episode that a lot of therapists had told me that I need to write a memoir. Really?

[00:14:37] [SPEAKER_02] And you were like in your... You were young.

[00:14:40] [SPEAKER_03] I was 22. Yeah.

[00:14:42] [SPEAKER_02] Memoir age worthy, no doubt. Yeah. But still pretty young. Okay.

[00:14:46] [SPEAKER_03] So I just kind of started writing it like actual like paragraphs and like recounting things. And I decided, A, that was triggering me. And B, I wanted to do something a little bit more creative with it.

[00:14:58] [SPEAKER_04] Right, right, right.

[00:14:59] [SPEAKER_03] Because everyone can just read a story and be like... I'm like, what makes my life so important that someone else is going to want to read about it? You know? Like, what is the point of me doing this?

[00:15:09] [SPEAKER_02] Really, really good question to ask if you're writing a memoir.

[00:15:12] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah, I'm like, this is just boring. This is just what happened in my life and I don't really feel like it's going to help anyone. So then I kind of transitioned to like... I thought about writing letters to myself because writing letters is something that has been really meaningful and helpful in therapy. Right, right. Like letters to myself at different stages of my life. Like me when I was first diagnosed. Me when I was really suicidal, like in high school. Me when I started self-harming. All that kind of stuff.

[00:15:40] [SPEAKER_03] And then came the stuff people should know when they're like going into the world of psych.

[00:15:48] [SPEAKER_02] And by the way, I want to add something there. Do you mean just psych or also like eating disorder rehab stuff too?

[00:15:54] [SPEAKER_03] I mean like all of mental health. So eating disorder, yeah, all of that. And like different treatments as well.

[00:16:00] [SPEAKER_02] You're going to make me a problem. I mean, I'm not going to do this thing. You know how people make me promise that you're not going to kill yourself. We're not doing a pact here.

[00:16:08] [SPEAKER_03] Because that's how I feel when I have these ideas. It's like, ah, you're making me promise now. Yeah.

[00:16:14] [SPEAKER_02] No, I'm not doing shit. Can you please? Do you ever use AI?

[00:16:18] [SPEAKER_03] I do sometimes to do quick research.

[00:16:20] [SPEAKER_02] Today, tomorrow, whenever. Can you just see what's out there specifically around the thing about like the whole thing about mental health and like to prepare? I think that is such a good idea.

[00:16:32] [SPEAKER_04] Thank you.

[00:16:32] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, no, I mean, I'm serious. I love that idea. Sometimes I think if it's a completely new idea, publishers will be like confused and say no.

[00:16:41] [SPEAKER_04] Oh, really?

[00:16:42] [SPEAKER_02] Whereas if a couple people have done it, you're like, all right, but I have my own angle and it's, I don't know. I don't know much about publishing. I don't know if it's Amazon or whatever. Like, you know, most people self-publish. And if the goal is just to get it out there, right, just to put it on paper and there's the opportunity for people, great, self-publish. But I mean, like, if you want to go to mass market, you know, that's not going to be an easy sell because we know how people feel about the mental health industry, right? Or pushing back against the norms.

[00:17:10] [SPEAKER_02] But like, that's actually like, it really sounds like a publishable, meaning like a publisher. And that helps so much because they do all of the marketing and all of the distribution. And like, you know, you're not there on fucking Facebook or wherever, Snapchat or like, hey, buy my book. Because most self-publishers, you know, they sell like nine bucks and it's to their friends and family.

[00:17:30] [SPEAKER_03] One I've been a little bit working on over the last week is just I've journaled pretty much every day for the past going on 13 years. Like things I've forgotten about. And like, I'm like, whoa, that was not okay that that happened. I think my goal is not to publish obviously everything, but the things that like kind of line up with the story I want to tell. I don't know if that makes sense.

[00:17:56] [SPEAKER_02] It makes 100% because I...

[00:17:58] [SPEAKER_03] It's like I've already written the whole bit. It's just breaking it down and editing and...

[00:18:03] [SPEAKER_02] 100%. I mean, that's what book writing, editing, curating is. You can't publish 13 years of notes.

[00:18:09] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah. No.

[00:18:10] [SPEAKER_02] You could. It's just like... I mean, these days you could self-publish that, right? But like, we talked in 2024. Share with me, please. And I know this is hard. Of course, sharing with the audience too.

[00:18:23] [SPEAKER_00] Kind of your life up until we first talked or originally talked to 2024.

[00:18:29] [SPEAKER_03] I experienced my first traumatic event when I was in middle school. And I was already dealing with eating disorder tendencies prior to that. But that only escalated the situation. I was diagnosed and hospitalized when I was 14 for the first time with anorexia. And then I was also diagnosed with depression and anxiety and OCD. And I went to treatment for my eating disorder for two lengthy stints when I was in high school.

[00:18:56] [SPEAKER_03] And I started having pretty severe suicidal ideation during that time. Pretty much during my first treatment stay and continuing to the present. My first suicide attempt wasn't until I was 18 years old. And it was an overdose. A lot of my earlier attempts were overdoses. I didn't really understand how medication worked. All I knew was what the nurses and treatment centers were telling me about, like, you really did want to make sure you don't take more than X amount.

[00:19:26] [SPEAKER_03] And I remember them stressing that so much that it made me be like, oh, well, what if I take five? Like, I had no understanding of, like, meds at that point. My more severe suicide attempts came later as an adult living on my own. I did switch my methods around to after that, a couple of, like, severe overdoses that landed me in the hospital. And then a suffocation attempt.

[00:19:53] [SPEAKER_03] And then a couple of attempts to jump from a high place.

[00:19:58] [SPEAKER_02] You've been hospitalized a lot, whether it was mental health or eating disorders.

[00:20:02] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah, I was, I've been, at this point, I've been hospitalized more than 25 times. The majority of those are eating disorder treatment stays. And then I also have several psychiatric admissions and patient. Those have all been really difficult, really stressful, causing severe interruptions in my life and development over the years. And sometimes it just feels like I'm stuck in a endless cycle.

[00:20:28] [SPEAKER_02] As someone listening, wherever you are, you're in Nigeria or Australia or Japan, like, how that interrupts your life? Because we don't really, I typically have the foundation to, like, let people just take a break from life for a while and then just come back. Like, there's, you're almost penalized. And that's not even talking about what happened in the actual treatment facility.

[00:20:52] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. And there's also a lot of shame that comes along with having to tell friends and family that you have to go away again or the horror when the police show up at your front door because with another affidavit or papers that they have no say in and you just have to go with them. Like, it's...

[00:21:10] [SPEAKER_02] They're just doing their jobs, of course. But, like, this goes back exactly to the beginning blurb of our episode. It's like, I'm not going to talk to people about it.

[00:21:21] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. At this point, I'm kind of like, well, I mean, I really think it goes back to the pink and purple pill. Like, I know what lethal methods are. And if I ultimately decide that that's what I want to do, then I'm probably just going to do it.

[00:21:37] [SPEAKER_02] I wish it was real. It's not real.

[00:21:40] [SPEAKER_03] The pink and purple pill.

[00:21:41] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. So we talked in 2024. Have you tried to end your life since then?

[00:21:47] [SPEAKER_03] I don't know if you remember, but in between when we talked in July and when it was posted in December, I sent in that blurb kind of talking about how I had one of those near attempts from a high place.

[00:21:59] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:22:01] [SPEAKER_03] And ended up court-ordered in a psych unit afterward. That, and then if you're counting, starving myself and hoping that that kills me. But that's a more...

[00:22:10] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, and that's complicated with eating disorder stuff too. It is, yeah. Are you folks in the picture?

[00:22:17] [SPEAKER_03] Not as much now that I'm an adult, but like, yeah, they're people I have a relationship with and love. And I mean, they don't live in my town. They live about an hour away, but we see each other. Okay. But I'm pretty much like, financially independent. They were very heavily involved in my treatment for a long time because they had to be when I was a minor and stuff. And now they're kind of letting me kind of navigate things by myself. They have a lot of responses that stem from fear, just wanting to check in and make sure I'm okay.

[00:22:47] [SPEAKER_04] A hundred percent.

[00:22:47] [SPEAKER_03] If they get a text from me that sounds even slightly off, which I get annoyed at, but I can also see their point of view.

[00:22:53] [SPEAKER_02] What are your official DSMV four or five or whatever it is, a diagnosis that you agree with?

[00:23:00] [SPEAKER_03] Anorexia nervosa at this point, it's severe and enduring and be considered a chronic eating disorder. Obsessive compulsive disorder, post-traumatic stress disorder, major depressive disorder, unclassified as severe. I'm not so sure about the generalized anxiety anymore. I just feel like that's kind of PTSD and OCD combined.

[00:23:20] [SPEAKER_02] And meds?

[00:23:21] [SPEAKER_03] I try not to be. I was pretty heavily over-medicated when I was younger and they were trying to figure out a whole bunch of meds. And then finally, I was similar to like talking about suicide and therapy sessions. It's like, I know what happens when I try a new med and I don't want to try it anymore. And there's just a laundry list of all the meds I've tried. To this day, my therapist and psychiatrist try to get me to go on different meds and I put up a fight.

[00:23:47] [SPEAKER_03] And sometimes I'm like, I'm just being stubborn, but sometimes I think like, yeah, I don't think this is actually going to help. Like I've done ECT. That didn't help. I've done ketamine. That didn't help.

[00:23:59] [SPEAKER_02] You think you were like born to die?

[00:24:01] [SPEAKER_03] It feels like that. And I know that sounds maybe to some people insane. I've just kind of always thought that I wouldn't make it that far.

[00:24:09] [SPEAKER_02] When did you start thinking that way?

[00:24:11] [SPEAKER_03] Middle school. Maybe a little bit younger. Yeah.

[00:24:14] [SPEAKER_02] Pretty young. So most update episodes, I reach out to people and they reach back. You reached out to me. So what was up with that? Tell me why you wanted to reconnect and talk about this now.

[00:24:24] [SPEAKER_03] Well, I remember that we connected briefly through email while I was in treatment in the winter. You may not remember that, but I said, I would love to do this, except I don't have access really to electronics or anything. Let's maybe look at it when I get out. But also suicide has been on my mind. I don't know. I don't know what it is about right now. I think it's still just like that. If I can say something that might help someone, then I want to do it. I feel like I almost have this

[00:24:52] [SPEAKER_03] complex where I feel like I have to... I've had situations where I'm like, okay, I have to finish this book because I really want to die. And it's like, if I help enough people, then when is the tally high enough that says like, okay, you've done enough work with what you've been through?

[00:25:06] [SPEAKER_02] I bet you know. There's no concrete number.

[00:25:09] [SPEAKER_03] I know there's not.

[00:25:11] [SPEAKER_02] And so it gets weird. Always going to be more people that need your help. And you're often thinking about not wanting to be alive, but an interesting space to exist in.

[00:25:20] [SPEAKER_03] It's like the two things I want most, which are very conflicting.

[00:25:24] [SPEAKER_02] Exactly. You're going to not like this word, but there's the beauty in that beauty because there's conflict and conflict is at the core of the human experience. And it's an art. It's about art. It's an art thing. It's an expression thing. I don't know. I don't, I don't know why I'm so drawn to that. I should ask, do you remember what drew you to even try to find a podcast like this?

[00:25:47] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. I listened to at least part of our podcast this week. I mean, I feel like everyone says it like they're just like, I was feeling suicidal and I wanted to hear someone else talk about suicide besides just listening to my own head, talk about suicide. I wanted to know that it was real and that it extended beyond me and that other people felt the way I felt. Yeah. I felt like finding your podcast was like finding gold because it was like, really? Like people aren't being censored for this? Like this is incredible. Like people are being honest and

[00:26:17] [SPEAKER_03] like nowhere else in the world are people talking like this.

[00:26:21] [SPEAKER_02] Literally want to make that my like tagline. It's so good. Which part? Well, the part that it's gold and literally no one else is doing this. Six years on, he's still broke, but he's still doing it because it matters. Did you listen to our episode?

[00:26:36] [SPEAKER_03] Yes, I did listen to my episode for a few reasons. We already talked about how it came, we recorded in July and it didn't come out till December. So listening to it in December, when I'd full fledged relapsed into my eating disorder, had a psych admission in there. Like it was very interesting to hear me talk before all that happened. And like, it ended up being almost like a time capsule being like, I can't remove the fact that I know

[00:27:04] [SPEAKER_03] that all these things are going to happen, but somehow this girl who's talking doesn't know that this is going to happen. And she doesn't know if she's still going to be alive where I am right now. Like, yeah, it was just a really kind of weird thing. And then also I listened to it. I wanted to make sure I didn't sound stupid. I'm very self-conscious about how I word things. And sometimes when I come up with things on the spot, they don't come out as cleanly as when I think about it later. So I,

[00:27:30] [SPEAKER_03] that might be part of my OCD is just kind of replaying things in my head. But I think that's fairly common for most people too.

[00:27:36] [SPEAKER_02] Did anybody hear an episode that you know of?

[00:27:39] [SPEAKER_03] As far as I'm aware, only the people I shared it with, which at the time I wasn't sure if I ever would share it. But when I was hospitalized again for my eating disorder, and then again this year, I ended up sharing it with some therapists and nurses because it became a more like comprehensive way to kind of like explain my suicidal thinking without them actually having to go through all that

[00:28:04] [SPEAKER_03] in session. And they did listen to it and they said it was helpful, but actually a lot of the people, which I feel like I'm very desensitized to like suicidal language. So it kind of struck me as a surprise when people came back and they're like, that was really heavy. That was really hard to listen to Molly. And I was like, oh, and then after that, not that I was planning on sharing it with too many more people. I just became a lot more intentional about like, if I do bring up that

[00:28:33] [SPEAKER_03] I spoke on this podcast, I'm not even going to hint at where to find it unless the person explicitly

[00:28:39] [SPEAKER_02] asks for it. I don't, why do I dislike them? People who think it's so heavy. It's a Sean thing. I'm not putting three fingers. It's just, it bothers me. And I don't know why.

[00:28:51] [SPEAKER_03] Especially when it's your life, I guess. Yeah. And you had to live it. I don't know.

[00:28:55] [SPEAKER_01] Do you ever listen to the podcast now?

[00:28:59] [SPEAKER_03] So I didn't, I didn't listen whenever I was in treatment. So I kind of like, obviously it was out of practice or habit of doing that there. And then once we started doing the lives last year, I kind of listened to it a little bit just to kind of stay in the loop. Yeah. I think whereas at one point listening to the podcast was like comforting to be able to hear something beyond my own head, it got to the point where my own head was just too loud. And I just

[00:29:27] [SPEAKER_03] wanted to numb out completely from everything.

[00:29:30] [SPEAKER_00] And just to give our audience a little perspective or context for those that don't follow us or subscribe on our YouTube channel, there was a period of several months where I got together with a handful of former guests and we talked about something, something related to suicide. There was a big question, but it often moved around in different directions. It was pretty cool. It lasted for several months. You can still find those at Suicide Noted. YouTube, subscribe, like, share, all of that

[00:29:58] [SPEAKER_02] stuff. Do it. Do you think in speaking with me originally now about two years ago, was there

[00:30:04] [SPEAKER_03] anything negative from that experience? I don't think so, honestly. I think if anything, it made me more sure of like what I feel passionate about standing up for in terms of like advocacy and

[00:30:17] [SPEAKER_02] rights and mental health. How often do IDA? However you want to define that word. Every day.

[00:30:22] [SPEAKER_03] Like how often a day. Depends on the season of my life, but currently a good portion of the day. I feel like I'm thinking a lot about it, thinking about decisions I'm making in light of that.

[00:30:37] [SPEAKER_02] What stops you?

[00:30:39] [SPEAKER_03] Those little stupid glimmers of, well, you can help people. You're helping people. Like, you can still like make a difference or like, and I'm not saying that it's stupid.

[00:30:51] [SPEAKER_02] I was just about to think like, that's an interesting choice of words. Stupid.

[00:30:55] [SPEAKER_03] It's frustrating because yes, I want to help people, but I also don't want to continue to be stuck in a cycle that doesn't ever seem to end. And I'm not really sure how I'm going to pull that all out because it's not just the eating disorder. It's not just the trauma. It's not the depression. They all beat off each other. And when one's bad, another one like maybe gets lower, but then gets high. And then they all just, so it's like, ultimately, yes, I would love to help people.

[00:31:25] [SPEAKER_03] Bottom line, I don't know how long I'm willing to keep going through stints of treatment and

[00:31:34] [SPEAKER_01] everything that goes with that. What was your answer to my pink and purple pill question back

[00:31:39] [SPEAKER_03] in the day? I said I would take it. What about now? I was thinking about that question today and I was having a little bit of a hard time because I feel like I'm in between two answers. As I said before, there are, I mean, not a lot, but several lethal methods that would have a success rate similar to a pink and purple pill. There would be a little bit more pain. People would probably know it's a suicide. So it's a little bit different in that sense. If it was a pink and

[00:32:04] [SPEAKER_03] purple pill and there weren't consequences and I wasn't afraid of like God being angry at me,

[00:32:13] [SPEAKER_02] yes, I would take it. Hold up, hold up, hold up. We can talk about conditions, but I never included in there that there wouldn't be consequences or God wouldn't be angry at you. Do you want to include that in your particular pink and purple pill recipe here? I would because those are important to me. So like, let's define consequences. What do you mean? Going to hell is a consequence I was

[00:32:37] [SPEAKER_02] thinking of. So if I could sell, if I could say no pain, guaranteed death, no one knows it's a suicide. You don't go to hell. You just swallow it. I think I might. Yeah. Even though tomorrow, you know, you have people that want your help. That's not a guilt thing. It's just a curiosity

[00:32:55] [SPEAKER_03] thing. I think so. Yeah. Because I know that there will always be tomorrow where people want

[00:32:59] [SPEAKER_02] my help. Exactly. You're probably awesome at what you do, but there are other people that will step

[00:33:03] [SPEAKER_03] in and help them. I mean, I was gone from work for seven months. Right. Right. And somehow day after

[00:33:09] [SPEAKER_02] day, the lab's open 24 seven. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. How fast do you think it would take you to swallow

[00:33:13] [SPEAKER_03] that shit? That's an interesting question. Like if you're handing it to me over zoom. Yeah. Like,

[00:33:19] [SPEAKER_02] are you like, I could see myself just like, yeah. Like, yeah. Like, is there a minute of reflection upon thinking about your parents or your whatever, you know, whatever? Like, is it? I think I've

[00:33:29] [SPEAKER_03] thought a lot. I think I've, I've pondered those things for some long over the years. Yeah. It sounds so unkind and selfish to say that I'm not thinking about that. They were hanging on thinking about what? Like relationships and how this might impact other people. I have met almost nobody. And I don't know

[00:33:51] [SPEAKER_02] if they're both of me who doesn't think about those things. Yeah. I mean, I can sit here and tell you

[00:33:56] [SPEAKER_03] right now, whenever I've attempted, it's usually tunnel vision, written suicide notes to the people who are most important to me. I've said goodbye. I've said thank you. But in that moment of actually doing the act, it's just me. It feels like it's very tunnel vision and it feels like, it feels like the end. So it feels like it's going to be inconsequential however I leave it,

[00:34:17] [SPEAKER_02] but I still want to try to leave it on good note. It's like something we want to give someone closure or some meaning or it's never going to be enough. Yeah. Like we know this, it's never going to be enough. It's not. And I hate that, but your parents know that the depths of your,

[00:34:36] [SPEAKER_03] they know some parts, but not all of it. I don't want them to worry about that because that's not their load to carry. Yes. Siblings? Yes. I have an older sister and two nieces and a brother-in-law that I'm pretty close with, which my nieces and my sister are another thing that keeps me tight here for both. Right. Sure. Good and bad feelings. Yeah.

[00:35:00] [SPEAKER_02] She's like, yeah. Are those the things that keep you like, nope, not today. When I get to lift up my nieces and like give them a huge hug and. Right. Like Aunt Em, Aunt Em, they're like, which by the way is, I believe what literally is the Wizard of Oz. Yeah. That's true. It's funny. I just had a conversation with somebody. I think her episode is coming out in the next couple of weeks,

[00:35:26] [SPEAKER_02] which was like, the only thing that came to me alive is my nephews and nieces. Because when I go to their house, you're so excited. They want to show me like move their bedroom around or made this project. And they don't see me the way most of the world sees me. My nieces don't know anything about

[00:35:44] [SPEAKER_03] my past. But how old are they? How old are they? Um, the youngest just turned one and the oldest will

[00:35:51] [SPEAKER_02] be three next month. Sure. Of course. So it's like a total, you're like, you get to reinvent yourself. Well, now I don't know if that's the right word. And I don't want to put words in your mouth, but like, you just get to be this human who. Yeah. It's like clean. And their child, childlike innocence is

[00:36:09] [SPEAKER_03] just, I don't even know how to explain it. It's just pure. And it makes me feel like I want to do everything to protect them from any pain that could come away. What's weird about it is that you were

[00:36:21] [SPEAKER_02] one or two years old at some point and you were probably the same way. I was, yeah. Yeah. Like, they probably don't have memories of that because I think that's just how the brain works. Like, literally everybody who's ever taken their life was a little kid. And you know what's interesting?

[00:36:36] [SPEAKER_03] I do think about that when I'm thinking about doing that is like, when my parents knew me at that age, would they ever conceive that this is how it would end? Cause to them, they've seen my whole life. And it's like, when I look at my nieces, it's like, I would never like picture that scenario, but it's like to think about all the things that they've supported me through and like all the birthdays that I've had. And it's just like all those milestones. And it's like, like, was it all

[00:37:05] [SPEAKER_03] really leading up to that? Yeah. It just makes me pause and think. When's your birthday?

[00:37:10] [SPEAKER_02] It's in March. Um, what does that make you? What is your, your sign? I'm a Pisces. Do we care about

[00:37:16] [SPEAKER_03] that? Does that matter? Not really. I mean, an eating disorder treatment, we always like read horoscopes at breakfast. It's like a universal eating disorder treatment thing. So that's pretty much the only reason why I know I'm a Pisces. I don't care too much about it. So Pisces are fish,

[00:37:32] [SPEAKER_02] water-based. That's true. I did do swim team. Oh, you did? Okay. But I was like totally landlocked. Not that there aren't pools and lakes and shit, but like, it's just fun.

[00:37:42] [SPEAKER_00] Does it upset you when guys like me or people like me from the coasts talk about Iowa as sort of a flyover state?

[00:37:49] [SPEAKER_03] I agree to the outsider that it is a flyover state. Yeah. I think I mentioned this in our first episode because you asked me, but have you ever driven through Iowa? When you get out of Illinois and cross into Iowa, you can tell something's different. It's just so green and the people like will say bad things about there being cornfields, but like right now in July, the corn is so tall and it's so green and like this pretty deep color.

[00:38:18] [SPEAKER_03] And then like the rows are just like so straight. It's just really cool to look at.

[00:38:23] [SPEAKER_02] I bet it is. I bet it. One of the things I really like, even though I didn't get it to Iowa, but I got it to enough States and I'm referring here mainly to last year's tour almost a year ago. There was a lot of agriculture and like I would sometimes take a dip off, get some food, fill up my tank of gas and then take like a few miles to go off, off the highway. Farmsman.

[00:38:43] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. I've never lived on a farm or in the country and I live in the city now, but yeah, I mean, I just think it's beautiful because of green is one of my favorite colors. And just when everything is green, it just feels right. And like blue sky, sun.

[00:38:58] [SPEAKER_01] Um, you are 27. Are you making it? Will you be alive at 30?

[00:39:03] [SPEAKER_03] I honestly feel like it could go either way. Either I have some major breakthrough that I'm not really sure what would cause or I decided not.

[00:39:12] [SPEAKER_02] When this episode comes out, do you think you'll listen and do you think we'll share with anybody? Has that changed at all?

[00:39:17] [SPEAKER_03] I think I'd want to listen to it first and just kind of get the overall like sense of like what this message ends up being. And then if I feel like if it's applicable to either a therapy, um, assignment or maybe advocacy or just wanting to share my thoughts on something with someone, maybe I don't have anyone in mind at the moment.

[00:39:40] [SPEAKER_01] Does that make you sad?

[00:39:41] [SPEAKER_03] Does it make me sad?

[00:39:43] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. Yeah. It's sad. Like kind of do you wish, I wish I was born like enough differently that I just wasn't this way and I could just.

[00:39:52] [SPEAKER_03] I wish I didn't have the constant like back and forth in my head about it. To have all that noise gone would be pretty nice to not plan your days wondering like, oh, well, am I going to do it this week? Next week? Like, is there a point?

[00:40:07] [SPEAKER_01] Isn't it take over your life then though?

[00:40:09] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. Yeah, it does.

[00:40:11] [SPEAKER_02] I don't want you to be miserable for another five, 10 years. It's so, it's so complicated. And then we took like modern medicine and there's better medicines, there's better this and better that. And it's like,

[00:40:23] [SPEAKER_03] ah, it's like, I've heard that.

[00:40:25] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. I mean, there's always going to be another doctor or another therapist. You could see there's always going to be a new medication by some pharmaceutical company or a new fucking app. Like, and for some that might make the difference, but.

[00:40:37] [SPEAKER_03] What about you? Where are you at?

[00:40:39] [SPEAKER_02] I'm bad, man. I'm back in the super rational practical. Like, I'm broke. I don't want to be homeless and I don't want to live that way. Like, I don't want to die. You don't? No. I wish I were different. I don't think I can change that much. I wish I could accept the way I am, but I got like 15 episodes to edit.

[00:41:01] [SPEAKER_03] Right. You got those books to write. You got the episodes.

[00:41:04] [SPEAKER_02] Like for you, it's your books. For me, it's the episode. But by the time I get to the end of the 15, there's going to be 10 more people who reach out and want to talk. So it's like, all right.

[00:41:13] [SPEAKER_03] So are we keeping him alive in some strange way?

[00:41:16] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. In some way you are. Yeah.

[00:41:18] [SPEAKER_03] It's funny. I mean, ironic.

[00:41:20] [SPEAKER_02] I mean, if it stops, it stops. And I think I'll die probably if I had to guess. Trying to continue this work. It's almost like an obsession. But I mean, at least it's an obsession that leads to hopefully some good.

[00:41:33] [SPEAKER_03] That's kind of how I feel too.

[00:41:35] [SPEAKER_02] What's the rest of the... So what are we at? Oh, you're at 1010. You're going to go to bed

[00:41:38] [SPEAKER_03] soon. Yeah, I got to go to bed here.

[00:41:40] [SPEAKER_02] And you got to get up early and go to the hospital and save lives, which is kind of cool. So if we talk in the air, what's changed, if anything?

[00:41:49] [SPEAKER_03] I feel like these years, I feel like I'm at a fork in the road. I'm either stable enough to go back to school and finish my bachelor's or I'm not stable enough. I can't keep working. Things just go badly. And there's a lot of weight attached to not relapsing this time out of treatment. That's my eating disorder.

[00:42:13] [SPEAKER_01] Is that right?

[00:42:13] [SPEAKER_03] It feels like it because I don't want to lose my job if I have to leave again and I don't want to go back to treatment.

[00:42:20] [SPEAKER_02] Oh, man. And you live alone. There's a lot of pressure.

[00:42:24] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah.

[00:42:24] [SPEAKER_02] Thanks for talking again.

[00:42:26] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah. I'm glad we got to talk.

[00:42:28] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, me too, man. Is there anything else you want to talk about?

[00:42:31] [SPEAKER_03] I don't think so tonight, but I'm grateful for this.

[00:42:35] [SPEAKER_01] I hope your days are okay, man. And I know it's not easy.

[00:42:38] [SPEAKER_03] Same for you.

[00:42:40] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. Thank you. You're right. It's not. I'm worried about myself, but sometimes I think about the last episode of the Suicide Nerd podcast being my own. Is that crazy?

[00:42:51] [SPEAKER_04] That's actually really sad.

[00:42:52] [SPEAKER_01] It's kind of cool too, though. You're smiling. You get it. You know what I'm saying? You know what I'm saying?

[00:42:57] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah, I do. I mean, it sounds like a fantasy thing.

[00:43:02] [SPEAKER_02] For sure. For sure.

[00:43:03] [SPEAKER_03] I just don't know how well that would sit with your audience if it was clear that you were going to go do something.

[00:43:09] [SPEAKER_02] If it did come to that, I would be honest with my audience and I wouldn't. I mean, this might sound weird.

[00:43:16] [SPEAKER_03] It wouldn't be sarcastic. It would be like, I've tried.

[00:43:19] [SPEAKER_02] No, no, no. I don't fuck with people. No, no, no, no, no. I always say this. My first obligation is to my guests. So, for example, if someone doesn't like the way this conversation is, I don't give a shit. I think about my listeners and if they reach out and say, hey, like, sometimes, and it's rare, like, I'll take into consideration, but like, you're my guest. My obligation is to try to create a space for you to share some shit.

[00:43:44] [SPEAKER_02] I think about them in terms of where they insert sort of like narrative structure, making it easy for them to follow and track. And I don't know if I chose that route, which is unlikely, but it's possible. I would fucking end this podcast that way, I think. I think that would be an interesting way to end it. I think it would.

[00:44:07] [SPEAKER_03] Now that I've got to think about it, like, yeah, I can see. I mean, then you're not just like abandoning it. You're like.

[00:44:14] [SPEAKER_02] I'm part of it. I'm part of it. I'm like, I connected with my guests. Like, I've been through it and this happened. And I have no idea what that episode would sound like or be like, but, you know, it's crossed my mind. But I don't think that's an imminent thing. So anyway, man, I hope you get some good rest. It was really good to connect with you again. Appreciate you talking to me again.

[00:44:38] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. Same.

[00:44:39] [SPEAKER_02] All right. Bye.

[00:44:41] [SPEAKER_04] Bye.

[00:44:42] [SPEAKER_02] As always, thanks so much for listening and all of your support. Special thanks to Em in Iowa for speaking with me again.

[00:44:50] [SPEAKER_00] Thanks, Em.

[00:44:50] [SPEAKER_02] If you are a suicide attempt survivor or ideator and you'd like to talk, please reach out. Hello at suicidenodend.com. I'd love to speak with you. And if you're a past guest and you want to do an update episode, by all means, reach out to me.

[00:45:03] [SPEAKER_00] And that's all for this update episode. Stay strong. Do the best you can. I will talk to you soon. you