Michael in Pennsylvania

[00:00:00] The idea of the book is that I am drowning in this dark water my whole life. And I think it's dark because I'm miserable and depressed and the world is terrible. But I find out that it's actually dark because it's so deep and runs so much deeper than I ever thought I could. It's not dirty, it's deep.

[00:00:41] Hey there, my name is Sean and this is Suicide Noted. On this podcast, I talk with suicide attempt survivors and ideators so that we can hear their stories. Every year around the world, millions of people try to take their own lives and we almost never talk about it. We certainly don't talk about it enough. And when we do talk about it, when we engage with people in pain, so many of us, far too many of us are really fucking bad at it.

[00:01:09] And that's a problem. So one of my goals with this podcast is to have more conversations and hopefully better conversations with survivors in large part to help more people in more places hopefully feel a little less shitty. And a little less alone. Yes, go ahead and make that a hashtag on TikTok or Instagram or wherever that shit happens. If you are a suicide attempt survivor or ideator and you'd like to talk, I'd love to talk with you. Please reach out. It's real simple.

[00:01:34] Hello at SuicideNoted.com. You can learn more about this podcast in a number of places, including our website, SuicideNoted.com. And I'd love it if you gave us some feedback on our weekly poll on Spotify, if that is where you listen. Keep in mind, of course, we are talking about suicide here on the Suicide Noted podcast. My guests and I do not hold back. That is intentional. But take that into account before you listen or as you listen.

[00:02:01] But I do hope you listen, all caps, because there's so much to learn. Today, I am talking with Michael. Michael lives in the Keystone State of Pennsylvania and he is a suicide attempt survivor. Michael. Michael. Yes, sir. Hello. Michael in Pennsylvania. Yes. Yes. Good to meet you. You too. How the hell did we find each other?

[00:02:29] Well, a couple months ago, I was interested in seeing if there were any podcasts about suicide. This is the one that came up and I listened to it and I really enjoyed it. Well, it's the best one out there. How about, wait a second, not everybody just goes looking for podcasts on suicide. Tell me more. I'm no stranger to suicide. I've had a couple attempts in my life and I think about it a lot.

[00:02:55] And this past autumn, I was really just in a state where I was just really thinking about it. Not even ideating, just curious about suicide. I read a, I found a book all about the history of suicide and was fascinated and appalled by some of the ways people have been treated over the centuries. But, and it was, I was just kind of in the mood to, to learn more and to listen more. And, and that's where I was at.

[00:03:23] So I was really grateful to find your, your podcast. Even the first, the first episode I listened to, I just felt like this is, this is so refreshing to have conversations about this that don't immediately go to the prevention cliches. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, thank you for that. That's been the goal all along. Yeah. Not necessarily with the thinking of don't, not the prevention cliches, but that's by default what happens when you just open up and talk. It's really very simple concept. Yeah.

[00:03:52] And you, uh, not only found it and, and were intrigued by it, my share with me and then by default other human beings who you likely will never meet, but we'll hear you somewhere sometime. Yeah. Well, I have, um, I've been really open about, um, my, uh, uh, my struggles with depression over the years. Um, and I have found that to be really helpful in my own life.

[00:04:16] And, uh, my, my career is as a pastor of a Lutheran church and I have found it to be helpful to be open about that there. You know, I just, I, I'm just willing to talk about it. I, I, I, I don't see any reason why there should be a stigma around it. And so I, I don't treat it like there is one. And while I've kind of lost a few people here and there over that, most people have responded pretty well. And again, that's talking about depression. I've talked about my suicide attempts, but I'm really careful how I talk about those.

[00:04:44] Um, that they're always framed as this is how bad it got, but look where, look what happened afterwards and look where I am now. And I'm okay now. And that sort of thing. Um, people feel comfortable. Yeah. And I, I, I realized that listening to your podcast, it made me realize that as open as I've been about, about depression and mental illness, I've been really watching my words and watching how I talk about suicide.

[00:05:11] And I thought this might be a really good experience for me to have the chance to, to talk more because I've, I've been on a number of podcasts talking about my experience with depression, but, uh, but never specifically suicide. And, and I, um, you know, I often think sometimes, I don't know if this is where you want to go with the episode, but if I, you know, connecting my, my faith with mental illness is, um, you know, has, has been very interesting for some people and, and, uh, and helpful, I think for some people as well. Yeah.

[00:05:40] I would love to, among other places go there. And that's one of my first questions as a pastor of a Lutheran church, you're talking to a Jew who knows nothing about religion, agnostic. You're all Christian to me. That's not an insult. I just don't know. No, that's okay. But as a Lutheran, as a man of Christ, um, I always say Christ would have been a damn good listener. Oh, yes. To somebody who was contemplating suicide.

[00:06:06] So all you Christians, sorry, sorry, Michael, this might offend all you Christians who aren't good at that. You get, you should be better Christians. That's fine. This coming from middle-aged white liberal New York Jew. So take that with a grain of salt. That's fine. Mahatma Gandhi, um, supposedly said at some point, I love your Christ, but I don't love your Christians. Some do that affect. Yeah. I'm going to, I'm going to get a little bit into scripture.

[00:06:36] Just for a little bit. And, and that might not even be the right word. What, what is it? What in those, uh, it gives fear of pastor, you, you know, that book somewhat. Yeah. Yeah. Probably. Uh, is there a mention of suicide? Not much, not much. I mean, there's, uh, the disciple of Jesus who betrayed him, um, that led to his crucifixion. Uh, Judas Iscariot was, was said to have, have killed himself and, you know, thrown himself into a, well, depending on which gospel you read.

[00:07:05] One gospel says he threw himself into a field and his entrails opened up. The other said he hung, he hanged himself from a tree. Um, apart from that, there's not much. And the church over the centuries has decided that, um, that suicide is this, this horrible, unforgivable sin or taught that at some points in its history. Um, but it, it really doesn't go much into it. And, and I, I'd say from my perspective, I can't worship a God who would find suicide to be, or anything to be an unforgivable sin.

[00:07:35] You know, I think about, about my own kids and if one of my children died by suicide, as hard as that would be, and I know, you know, it would, it would be devastating. I think I could forgive them for that. I think I would understand that, that, you know, the kind of pain they were in and so forth. And if I can show more forgiveness than God, that I think my understanding of God is screwed up. You shouldn't be more than God. I don't think so. Well, hang on.

[00:08:03] But if God made you in his likeness and you kill yourself, that's suggesting God made you, that's God's like that. And I don't know if God's going to embrace that. That's a really good point. Yeah. I wouldn't say that God would embrace it. That's that, that would not be the word I'd use. My understanding of what sin is, is sin is anything that takes us away from God, anything that takes us away from, from God's will for us. That can be thoughts, that can be actions, that can be just, just our very life is, is filled with

[00:08:33] that. And so I think from that standpoint, you know, sure, suicide is not God's preference for sure. It would be a sin in that way, you know, but it's also if understands that people don't do this on a whim. I mean, maybe some people do, but, but the vast majority of people are, are in so much pain, but this is the only way out they can see, you know, God wants pain to be. So here we're getting into free will, Michael. This is the thing that we can debate for eternity.

[00:09:03] Right. Pushing back here a little bit, not pushing back on your words, some ideas. Mm-hmm. Why'd you make somebody feel so much pain for so long that they needed to kill themselves? That's a really good question. And I don't have a really good answer for that. Yeah. And I appreciate you not, because if you did, I'd probably be like, you know, there's some unanswerable question. Yeah. It doesn't make it not worth exploring. Where I always go, you know, as a pastor, when someone's suffering and asks me a question like that,

[00:09:31] you know, I, I, I admit to them, I don't know why you're suffering. I don't believe it's God's will that you're suffering, but I do believe that God is with you through this. Why God allows it? I don't know. How often do people come to you with those types of questions, particularly around suicide, not just depression or pain? Around suicide? Not, not very often. Yeah. And you know, you know, they're out there. Yeah. They're in your congregation. Yeah, absolutely. And I, I, I think people do come to me more often with mental illness

[00:09:59] questions than a lot of pastors because I've been upfront about my own issues. Yeah. I think people are afraid to talk about suicide because they're, um, they're afraid. Well, I mean, who knows what they're afraid of, but they could be afraid of being judged for that, that that's different than just having an illness. They could, it could be afraid that there there'll be, uh, that I'll have to make a phone call and get them locked up. Who knows what else? Yeah. Yeah. I agree with you. Always for shits and giggles. Wonder how many people know

[00:10:27] you're having a conversation with an essential stranger about suicide right now? Um, right now my, my family knows my wife and my two kids. They know, and they know exactly, not just mental illness, not just person. Yep. I think they think that, uh, because, because when, when, when my memoir was published a few years ago, I, I did a lot of podcasts then to try and, you know, to try and sell it. And, um, and so a lot of the places I would go were, were podcasts either about mental illness

[00:10:56] or about faith. You know, I, I'd either be the mental illness token boy in the faith podcast or the faith token boy in the mental illness podcast. So they're used to this. And, um, uh, you know, I did mention this is a podcast about suicide and they're like, Oh, well, that'll be nice. Hope you have a good, good interview. Hope he's not an asshole. Yeah. Um, did you actually sell the book? Yes. It, I, uh, I sold it through a hybrid publisher. Which, um, is kind of halfway between self-publishing and traditional publishing. So,

[00:11:26] which means it did go through a very rigorous editing process. Unlike if you're just self-publishing, but it, it did not get the kind of marketing that a traditional publisher had gotten. So, so I've sold some, it has not, it has not, uh, break broken, broken any records. Not a judgment. It was a, it was a memoir. Now, uh, how many episodes have you heard of this podcast? One or two dozen at this point. Okay. So you know that I have a gift for memoir titles. I know.

[00:11:54] So yours is already set. We're not going to change it, but I want to know what is the name of your memoir? Well, I'll tell you, I think you might be able to give me a better subtitle than I have right now. The memoir is called... I can stop kissing my ass. No, no, no, really. It's called Dark Water and, and, and, um, and I really do like the title of it, but, but the subtitle then is a pastor's memoir of depression and faith. And I thought going into

[00:12:17] this that it really needed to kind of state what it was. But in retrospect, I think that that didn't help it at all. I don't know why you need to put the word memoir in a subtitle when we know it's a memoir. Two, I want to just call something out that has nothing to do with the subtitle, but has come up a few times, the word depression and mental illness and the immediate connection we make with suicide.

[00:12:42] And I will tell you not being a doctor, not having studied the DSMV, but having a lot of conversations. And this is an arguable point because some people will say, if you're thinking about killing yourself, I don't give a shit what doctors say. You have some form of mental illness. That might be true. I don't know. But it's my take that there's not a small percentage of people that are not mentally ill that contemplate end or complete suicide. So there's a lot,

[00:13:07] there's a large conversation around suicide that leans towards those that are depressed or mentally ill in some format, but we leave people out. Okay. That might not be you because it sounds like you've dealt with this stuff and this is about you and your memoir isn't supposed to be representative of all human beings. Right. It's Michael's story. Dark water. Yeah. I mean, can't argue with that. Yeah. A lot of kind of where I, where I get to in the book is that there's, um, you know,

[00:13:36] it, it, it dives really deeply into it. It's a bunch of episodes of my life when, when my mental illness really reared itself, including a couple of suicide attempts, but also talks about where, where my faith in God was through all that. And I, and what I came to in the book is that my faith in God is really wrapped up in, in baptism. You know, that's the, the, um, the sacrament of entry into the Christian churches is baptism in water. And so the idea of the book is

[00:14:02] that, um, is that I am drowning in this, in this dark water my whole life. And I think it's dark because I'm miserable and depressed and the, and the world is terrible, but I find out that it's actually dark because it's so deep and runs so much deeper than I ever thought it could. It's not dirty. It's deep. And it kind of, you kind of back and forth between how, you know, I listened to the dark voice in my head that tells me how terrible I am. Um, and then the, the voice of God telling me that I'm loved. How old are you?

[00:14:31] Uh, 50, 50 year old Michael in Pennsylvania. I have a couple of questions about the book, but not what you might think. And then I want to go a little bit more into Michael's life. I usually don't do third person, but I did there a little bit, but you know, like the growing up and the tough, the camps and then the navigating. And then I'm sure it weaves in and out of faith and pastoring. How long did it take you to write the book? About two years.

[00:14:58] Credit to you for not quitting. Of that, how much was editing? I know it's not cut and dry writing, editing, but it was at the bulk of it editing. A lot of it was editing. And what I thought the manuscript was all done and I thought this was ready to go. And I sent it to the publisher and they said, we'd like to work with you on this. And then they said, they sent me to an editor who ripped me a new one. It was, it was bad, but, but helped me to see how to make it so much better. And the words that. That was the question. Is it better?

[00:15:28] It's a hundred percent better. A hundred percent better. So they were a good editor, good. Oh yeah. And, but, but without losing the integrity of the book. And, and it was my words. He did not, I did not take any of his words to do. He just told me, you got to fix this. You got to fix this. You got to throw this out. You got to rearrange this. But I did all that myself. So it is still my words. Yep. Yeah. No, of course. That's great. I'm glad you did that. When was that published? Uh, 2021, I think.

[00:15:53] Nice. And again, it's dark water, a pastor's memoir of depression and faith. Yes. Not particularly keen on putting a bunch of links in my, uh, show notes, but I, if we say it a few times, people can find it on app. Sure. That's fine. Married with two kids? Yep. Yep. Christian household? Yes. Your kids and wife know about your, your struggles? Yes. Seems like you're pretty open about it with them and others. You've been on podcast. You wrote a book, you got a congregation. I mean.

[00:16:22] Yeah. My kids are right now are 17 and 11 and I've tried to be age appropriate with them, you know, as, as they've grown up, as they were little, I was just, you know, telling them that, you know, sometimes daddy will be upset and it's not because of you. It's not your fault. It's just sometimes daddy gets sad. Well, occasionally it could be. You literally birthed your wife birthed angels once in a while. They're not doing great. Come on. Yes. But that could be angry at them sometimes. Yes.

[00:16:49] But, um, but now the 17 year old I'm pretty much just totally open with at this point. Who's, who's, who's struggling with his own set of mental health issues right now. And so got a good dad to deal with that probably. Hope so. I know it's probably humbling, but like how cool that you can have that kind of connection with a kid at 17 years old. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, really that's a big deal, man. Where'd you go up? Uh, grew up, um, outside the city of Hazleton, Pennsylvania and the coal regions of.

[00:17:18] Talk about like Steelers and pirates and. Phillies and, uh, and Eagles. It's the eastern part of the state. Yeah. Phillies and Eagles and getting towards that weird accent that Philadelphians have. Uh, about, about two hours north of Philadelphia. So not so much of the accent. No. Oh, so you're not that far from New York then. No. In fact, there were some, um, there were some Mets fans where I was growing up. You're talking to one of them. We're talking Northeast jargon here.

[00:17:45] If you're from somewhere else in the world or the country, Google it. You have the earliest, this is some hard stuff because, and this applies to me too, we're going back a while. My, that's a two part question. The first question is when did you first start thinking about suicide beyond the philosophical, you know, the personal. Then if you wouldn't mind, and this is hard try to summarize only because we don't have four hours together, summarize childhood, teenage years, sort of what it's like for you growing up.

[00:18:13] Well, I can tell you my, my childhood was easy. I did not have a tough childhood. Um, I grew up in a lower middle-class family. My father was a pastor as well. You know, we didn't have all the luxuries, but we never worried about whether there's going to be food on the table. We were, we were fine. I mean, both my parents told me they loved me and showed me they love me. I, you know, I've tried to look back sometime and figure out what trauma I have from my childhood that caused this and I can't find it.

[00:18:40] And, you know, I've even, I've asked my parents and they, they don't know what it would be. Um, if there is anything, you know, which, which really, you know, leads me to think that at least for some people, there's, there's gotta be a biological thing because I have no external reason. Right. Biological and or spiritual. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's also the dark night of the soul. There's that, that's that side of it from childhood. I had a tremendously guilty conscience. The earliest time I can remember really thinking about suicide in a serious way.

[00:19:09] Um, I was about 12 and I don't remember the details of the situation, but I know that, that I had somehow done something. My father and I were at some event and I threw a fit or something and we ended up having to leave early. And by the time I got home, I, I wasn't angry about whatever I was throwing a tantrum about, but I felt so guilty that my father had to leave this event that he would want it to be at. Um, I remember standing in my bedroom at age 12, you know, wishing there was a gun in

[00:19:39] the room so I could just, just, just do away with myself. What if there was a gun in the room? How, how intense is that feeling? Oh, at 12, would I've done it? I don't know. That's a great question. Um, it really felt like I wanted to do it. Michael, if you've heard the podcast, you know, I ask him really good questions. Oh yeah. I appreciate you pointing out that they are indeed good and you're not kissing my ass here.

[00:20:07] That's not a Lutheran pastor style. Yeah. My, I mean, my gut, you didn't ask unsolicited. And my gut is you probably don't, you probably scare yourself, but who knows? Yeah. Yeah. But it was, it was four years later. I was 16. My first attempt, um, that I really did try that. I think of as my stupid suicide attempt and both in the reasoning for the for it and the method. I didn't really casually date as a teenager. I fell in love as a teenager.

[00:20:36] Like I had, I was, you know, a serial monogamist and, and every girlfriend I had was going to be my wife. I knew it. We were in love forever. I had been together with this, this girl for a couple months at this point. I got a letter in the mail from someone I had met at summer camp, uh, the previous summer who I had a huge crush on at camp. And this letter informed me that apparently that crush was mutual and I never knew it.

[00:21:02] My brain went into this ridiculous series of, of thoughts that, um, like, oh my God, she, she was really into me. I should see if, if, if there could still be something we, you know, that could happen between us. I, I should, I should call her and we should, you know, I should see if we can, we can get together. But oh my God, then, then I would be, then I would be unfaithful to my girlfriend. And, and, and, and, and from there it's spiraled into no matter what I do now, I'm going to hurt somebody. And, and, and in fact, I'm already hurting people.

[00:21:29] And in fact, this is so complicated that, that I, I, I don't want to be the kind of person who's hurting people the way I'm hurting people right now. I need, I just need to get out of here and be done. Like, like my brain just, just turned what could have been a very simple and amusing thing into dark. So dark. Yeah. Right. And I decided that the only, the only solution here was to, was to get rid of myself. So I, um, I went down to there, there, you know, I grew up in this, in this rural area

[00:21:58] outside Hazleton and there was a, uh, a Creek that goes through there. And I don't know who really owned the land around the Creek, but we, as kids, we always just traipsed all over it. And there was one spot in this Creek that we knew as the falls. There was this, this place where an old trolley, uh, track went over the, the, the Creek. There was a, you know, a little trolley bridge there. And it was this kind of deep hole there in the water.

[00:22:25] And the, the legend in the area was that it's 10 feet deep at the falls. The Creek is 10 feet deep at the falls. We all knew that. So I thought, well, this is where I should do it. I should go down to the falls, tie rocks to my feet and jump in. Brilliant. I mean, it could work. It could work. You gotta be able to have weight. I don't know how deep the Creek is, but you have to have weight. So I did it. I went and sat on the trolley, you know, on the, the trestle there. And, um, with these rocks tied to my feet and jumped in.

[00:22:55] As soon as I landed, I discovered, okay, it's three feet deep. I was able to wade and walk just fine to get out of the Creek with those rocks on my feet. I know. I know. So is that why you're calling it the stupid suicide attempt? Yes. But also when you jump with rocks tied to your feet, you land on the rocks. Well, I thought I was going to keep going down into the water. I thought it was going to be. The water is going to break the fall a little bit, but you still might've hurt yourself.

[00:23:25] I didn't. Luckily. All right. Um, you walk out of there, but you're still suicidal. I was, and, and I, so I walked out of there completely soaking wet. That's what water does. We know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We're bringing, we're bringing nuggets of wisdom here, baby. Let's go. And walk back home, you know, dripping wet. It was a cold day and just went into my room, changed my clothes and I never told anybody about it.

[00:23:50] Well, that's what most people don't do, but you also have this conundrum that's still in your life with the two girls. And now on top of that, I felt like I'm so stupid. I can't even kill myself. Yeah. For real. I certainly felt that. Yeah. You know, and, and the issue, like you say, with the two girls that passed, I, I, you know, after a couple of days, I kind of said, you know, didn't do anything with that letter and things went back to normal with my girlfriend. And I, you know, and I just figured this is something people do sometimes. I figured, you know what?

[00:24:19] I guess people just try and kill themselves sometimes. Oh, and by the way, they do. That's not, you were not the only person in the world that day. Even I promise you. Yeah. Yeah. And you were in the majority of the people who did not succeed. If we can use that verbiage, some people don't like it or complete, but nonetheless, we know you failed. And that's another word people don't like because you're 50. Yes. 34 years have gone by in that time. You've tried one more time. Yes.

[00:24:48] Well, it depends on how you want to define it. You know, I had at least two almost attempts. Um, I heard in recent podcasts, uh, that you had, somebody was talking about that, that maybe if you stop yourself, it's not a real attempt. It's an almost attempt. So let's let the fancy PhD and doctor what exactly counts. But for my purposes, you decide. So then what I think of as, as the, the big one, the one that kind of, um, was life defining was in my first semester of college.

[00:25:17] You know, I was, I was adapting to, you know, to life and what I thought of as the big city. I was at a college in Allentown, Pennsylvania, you know, it's what I thought growing up in Hazleton. I've learned that's not necessarily true, but all relative. It was relative. Yeah. So I was adapting to, you know, to life at college. And I got into this conversation with a friend of mine that I felt like I had really hurt her, um, in a way that, that I wish I hadn't.

[00:25:47] I left that conversation feeling like if I could do this to her, and this is somebody I had a great deal of respect for. I didn't even have a crush on her. I just had respect and love for her. If I can do this to her, then I, I just need to be done. This, this all needs to be, to be over. Is this being influenced at all? At this point, are you in seminary? Are you heading in that direction at that point? Oh, no. This is, this is my first year in college. Uh, the way in our church, um, seminary comes after college. You need to have a bachelor's degree first.

[00:26:14] So I, I had no intention of becoming a pastor at this point. All right. So my, my question is, and it's, it's not rhetorical, but it's more like there's probably not an answer because we referenced biological and or potentially spiritual predisposition to things. Not everybody who feels really, really bad about maybe hurting somebody they care about thinks about suicide. Yeah.

[00:26:38] So do you have any idea why you, the lucky chosen one here, the dark water, lucky chosen man, you were the one of them who were like, that's where you went to. I have always been so sensitive to hurting people, to feeling like, and if I feel like I've done something, I need to apologize immediately. And I need to apologize profusely. And I need to somehow make it up to that person. And it is just, it hangs with me and, and, and, and it always has. Now, where does that come from?

[00:27:07] Is something I don't know. We don't get to know. But I do know that, um, well, I think one piece of this that might be important is my last year or two of high school and going into college, I had this, this poem I kept in my wallet that I wrote. The gist of it was the best thing that I could do is change. I know I should change and get better. I know that's what God wants for me is to change and get better. But if I have proven over and over again, that I can't get better, no matter what I do,

[00:27:37] then the second best thing would be for me to not be here anymore. Um, and that was, you wrote that? Is that an, I wrote that? Yeah. I mean, that's not, that's not word for word. Um, I can, I can read it to you if you want. That's not Walt Whitman. That's, that's Michael. Yeah. And, and, but that was the idea was that it was that, you know, I know suicide is not the number one choice, but it's the number two choice that if I can't change and get better, the best thing I could do.

[00:28:02] And God would understand this is, is to, to, to, to save other people by getting myself away. That that's how I felt. I felt like, like I was helping other people and that that's, that's the thing. You know, I hear so many people say that suicide is selfish for me. I always thought about other people when I was suicidal. I think that's very common. I, and in fact, what got me to the point of suicide was the feeling that I had already hurt those other people.

[00:28:30] I knew that if I completed suicide, I knew it would hurt my family and I knew it would hurt my friends. Yeah. But I really believe that it wouldn't hurt them as much or for as long as if I stayed alive. I felt like I would do more damage to them here than if I were gone. All right. A couple of questions. Did either of the words burden or shame come into play there? Absolutely. Absolutely.

[00:28:54] Second, as a 50 year old looking back, is that a sign of mental illness? Not a loaded question. The fact that you thought that, can we just simply say that's part of some people's human experience or does it, for lack of a better word, require a label because it's aberrant quote unquote thinking. And thereby you're not mentally eased as opposed to dis-eased.

[00:29:22] I have gone down the route of, of seeing it as a mental illness and treating it like one. I have been in therapy and talk therapy for 25 years. I, um, I have been on, uh, meds for the last 17 years or so, and I have found them to be helpful. So I think in my experience, I have found looking at it as a mental illness has given me tools to work with it.

[00:29:49] And, and I have gotten better isn't the right way I want to say it. I have had moments of, of joy and moments of being able to look at things differently that I don't, I don't think I would have if I, if it weren't for that treatment that if. Yeah. I mean, and mental illness allows for a treatment and then a treatment and those things. That's the real value of labeling someone because it's like, oh, we have a group of people that are suffering somewhat similar symptoms. We may be able to help them.

[00:30:16] And that's, and that's why I wish mental health were treated like physical health. And, and I think it's, it's getting better than it used to be, but it's, it's still not there. Suicide. I don't think. Well, suicide, maybe not, but, but, but even, but mental health better. But I, I try not to say I'm depressed. I try to say I'm someone who lives with depression, you know, just like someone who has diabetes has diabetes. They are not, they're not diabetic. They have diabetes. So I think there's a, there's a difference there. The big one in college.

[00:30:45] What I did there, um, was I, I walked down to a park that was just off campus, um, and found a tree that seemed about the right size that seemed to have a limit about the right spot. After I found it, I just went back and, and, and sat on that for a couple of days until I went back one night. Now I didn't know how to tie a noose and it was, this, this was pre-internet. So I didn't have easy access to find out how to tie a noose, but I had a lot of bungee cords.

[00:31:12] I was convinced at the time that, you know, if you jump off with a bungee cord around your neck, that it'll probably snap your neck. I said, you're shaking your head. I mean, I'm no suicide. No, no, no. But well, and I still, to this day, don't know whether, you know, I don't know personally whether that would have worked or not because I did stop myself. But what, what I, but as far as I got was, you know, I climbed up that tree and I got the, um, the cord around, around my neck and I was wrapping it around the, uh, the limb above me.

[00:31:42] And here's where, where the faith part of the story gets really weird. I was praying to God for help to do this. I w I was not praying for, you know, you know, a sign to stop. I was praying for courage to go through with this. Not only not praying for the sign to stop, you weren't praying for like redemption or forgiveness. No, no. I was just praying for like courage and strength to, to, to follow through with this. Can I ask, and then I'll let you continue. Of course, for both the first attempt, which you called your stupid suicide attempt, and this

[00:32:12] one, which you're calling your big suicide attempt. Does anybody in the world know before Michael does this, that Michael's going to do this? No, not one person, not one person. Nobody knew about it after the first one. You didn't tell anybody. And then after you tell me what happened here, I'm curious if anyone else finds out. So I'm, I'm standing there. There's this tears streaming down my face because like, I guess my, my survival instincts is kicking in and there's a part of me that's really scared to do this. And, and there's a part of me that's really scared if I do this and it doesn't work, then what?

[00:32:42] And then suddenly, and this is, this is what happened. I saw this light in the distance. You know, I always tell the way I always tell this story is that it was probably in reality, just somebody turning their garage door light on or a street light coming on or something. But what I saw in that moment, because I was so deep in prayer and so, you know, intensely there was, um, was, it was a, it was a light from God telling me, no, don't do this. Hang on. You just told me you were looking for something.

[00:33:12] Maybe we can call it a sign to do it. Uh-huh. You saw the sign. You attributed that to God. And then there's a 180. Yep. Now I'm glad that we're talking now and it turned out that way, but how do you reconcile that? Cause that went from one thing to a completely different thing. I think in that moment, that sign, that wasn't the sign I expected. What I expected was, was, was to feel courage.

[00:33:39] I expected to, to, to, to, to feel this, this, like this, this, this push, you know, just, just do it. And instead I got something different. Right. And, and in that moment, I, I think I was so vulnerable and open that, that a side of me that didn't want to do this, saw that and grabbed hold of it and said, hold on, stop, hold on, stop. This is, this is not what we want right now. And that part said, and also, you know, you know, better God is not a God who's going to drive you to suicide.

[00:34:08] God is not a God who's going to do that. God is a God who wants wholeness for you and healing. Hmm. So what's, what's it like to come that close and then be walking back to your door? I mean, you just were almost not existing. And it just felt like, well, I guess that's in my past now. I felt like, like, that's, that's how I thought at that moment. I thought, wow, I guess, I guess I'm not going to do this then. And I just went about, I didn't tell anybody.

[00:34:37] I didn't tell anybody until about four days later, I was in the, uh, the student health center because I'd gotten like a nasty cold or something. And I, I had heard that, that some stuff was going around. And so I thought I better go down and get checked out. The nurse looked at me and said, it doesn't, doesn't seem to be anything really wrong. You know, have you been under any stress lately? I have always tried to be honest with, with medical professionals. Cause I feel like if you're not honest, then what, how, what can they do to you? I said, well, I, I did try to kill myself a few days ago. Michael. Yep.

[00:35:07] And in that moment I created the next two weeks of my life in a hospital. Yep. Yep. You've learned that you, you, you've unfortunately learned your lesson. You say that at some point soon after you are, let's say escorted to a hospital. Not directly. I was escorted to the counseling side of the health center and I was not allowed to leave there until my mother picked me up. What did mom say?

[00:35:32] She was heartbroken because she always knew there was something, something wrong and never knew what to do about it. And she felt that, that she had failed by not getting me help earlier. Um, was she the kind of mom that when she felt that way raised her voice? No, she was just so glad I was still alive. And she was helping. Mm hmm. At least then. Mm hmm.

[00:35:58] And so, so I went, I was taken back home that night. They took me to, uh, to a hospital, uh, in Wilkes-Barre. And I thought, well, I'm going to just talk to somebody here for a couple of minutes and we'll get it all worked out. And they'll, you know, I'll, they'll refer me to somebody I can see. It's going to be fine. No, they coerced me into committing myself. I found out later that probably would, they probably would have sought a court order had I not, but, um, but I was in the hospital for 11 days then.

[00:36:28] And I got to be honest with you. I know that hospital stays for people are often absolute misery and absolute hell. And I don't deny any of that, that reality. But after the first two days, it was a really good experience for me. It really was. Great. I, I don't know if maybe things were better back in the nineties than they are now, or maybe I got lucky. Maybe I got lucky. Yeah. Um, well, good. That's great. Cause I don't hear that too often. Yeah. Yeah. Probably needed some help. Yeah.

[00:36:58] You don't think you did, but I'm guessing you did. Oh, I, I, now I think I did. I didn't think so then, but one of the things that really shocked me, uh, in, in, in that time was, um, you know, I made a lot of phone calls while I was there. They, they, they had pay phones there that you could use if you had a, you know, a credit card or something. And I, I called a lot of friends just to talk to them and tell them what was going on, what happened. And I, I was amazed at how upset some of them were. I was amazed.

[00:37:27] You know, there was, I had one close friend who refused to talk to me for six months. She was so mad at me because I had done it. And, uh, we eventually, you know, patch that up. And, and I saw, I saw that anger for what it was. It was love. Um, hang on one second. And you're somebody who told me that you feel terrible sometimes to the point of contemplating suicide when you make someone feel bad. And here we are having at least one person making you feel bad. Michael, you hurt me.

[00:37:56] Why would you do this? Does that exacerbate things? Or were you just like, I'm in a hospital and I don't have the energy for this right now. It did at first, but, but, but we were able to work through that in the group therapy that day. Well, that's why maybe it was. Yeah. Yeah. Like a group therapy. Um, and it was, it was, it was just a good experience because most of what we did, there was group therapy and, and, and the other people there were, I was amazed at how normal just about everybody was. Right. Right.

[00:38:24] There was one guy who thought he was Jesus, but other than him, everybody was just, there were just normal people going through a shitty week. Yep. Which is what I was. So. And you get out on your own accord after 11 days. Yes. Yes. Right. Go back to life. Probably start seeing counselor. Yep. Meds. Not at that point. I, I, I, they did, they did not, uh, uh, give me any meds. Diagnosis. I never heard what the diagnosis was.

[00:38:54] Many years later, I was diagnosed major depressive disorder and I, I, that's what I think it was. You finished college. Yep. You go to seminary. Right. Things kind of smooth. Are you ideating at these at all during this time? Not much. No, no. I certainly had ups and downs. I had, you know, you know, my moods and whatnot, but, um, no, I don't think I was really ideating much from that point on college or seminary. No. All right. So now you're in your mid twenties and, uh, you're in Pennsylvania. Yep.

[00:39:23] Got married at 25, right, right. I started a career. I started a career and things were going okay. Whenever something went wrong at church and I blame myself for it, things wouldn't be okay in my head for quite some time. It never really got to the point of suicide again until just about five years ago. The COVID related? It was, well, it was definitely connected. Must have been the fall of 21 because I think we were, we're still on some restrictions.

[00:39:50] And I think that the one variant was coming in and everybody was just, just, just pissed off about the whole thing. I didn't want to deal with it anymore. And I did something that really upset somebody at church to the point where I, I needed to do something about it. And I think I was so screwed up with the pandemic and so, um, already on edge that this, this moment at the church really just, just drove me right back to, you know what? Just like I thought back in high school, I can't change. I can't fix this.

[00:40:20] And I think I even thought those words, just like I thought back in high school. Like I was, I recognized this was the same thing coming up again, but I said, you know what? It's cause I was right. It's cause I was right back then. And I still 30 years later, I'm not, I'm no better than I was then. And it's time to cut my losses. At this point, you got a congregation. Are you the head guy or the second? All right. I'm the head guy. You got a wife. Yep. Decent relationship. Yeah.

[00:40:48] Um, do you have any kids at this point? At this point? Yeah. My, this is five years ago. So my kids would have been 12 and 12 and six. Yep. Yes. If I were listening more carefully, 2021, I could have done the math. That's all right. No, no, but it changes things. You're not, you're the same person, but now life is different. Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, I think that the thing in my experience, you might not be, uh, this might not apply to you. The thinking is a little different when you have people dependent on you that you love, they

[00:41:16] love you and all of that swirling around too. It absolutely is. And in fact, you know, I want to take a little detour before I get back to that attempt. I wrote a story kind of on my own. I wouldn't, didn't intend to share it with anybody. I wrote a story that was, was all about me discovering this way to travel through time. And what I did with it was I went back to the night in November, 1993, the night of the big suicide attempt. And I changed it so that he did it right.

[00:41:44] Then the reason, you know, and it's all throughout the story. The reason was I, I, I need to get out of here. I need to stop hurting people, but the longer I'm here, the more, you know, now I have kids. Now I have a spouse. It would be so much better for everyone. If I had just done it, then I couldn't hurt people. If, if I had never met them, the best thing to do better than killing myself now would be to go back in time and get and do the job right. Then, uh, if you can figure out a way to do that, you're going to be a multimillionaire.

[00:42:15] You know, I, I, I, I wrote this story and it's, I mean, that's what I really wanted to do. That's what I wanted to do was, was not end it now because I don't want to put my kids through that. There've been times when I've, when I've thought, you know, when's my younger one going to be 18 at that point, you know, then, then it won't affect them the same way. This is like when people say like, I'm weirdly looking forward to my parents dying. Then I can just be free. And if I want to like that, I don't have the guilt and the shame around that.

[00:42:44] And there's some, some reason that connects with me. So like when your kid's older, they won't be as arguably affected or devastated. Exactly. Like it won't, it won't, it'll hurt, but it won't be traumatic. Like it would be for a child. As if the magic number 18 is the day. I know. But whatever we, we ascribe an age. Which is why I wish I could do it before they were born, which of course then means they don't even exist. And then like, is that, do I think they're better off like that?

[00:43:09] And it's, but since I, I couldn't actually do that this time, I did have access to the internet and I learned how to tie in news and I had made one and it went out in the woods. It wasn't the same woods that I went in, um, back then, but, uh, it might as well have been. They got trees. I got trees and I'm, I'm walking around looking for, for the right tree. And at one point I just, I just fell on the ground. I just literally just fell down like kind of sitting on this log that was there.

[00:43:39] And I pulled my phone out and called my wife and said, I need help. And this was the first she knew about this. Um, how'd she take that? She said, where are you and what do you need? Do you think she knew you needed help? She, I think so. I mean, this was the first, when I say the first she knew about it, I mean, the first time I spoke to her about it. Like, I wonder, man, I'm almost getting like teary eyed thinking about it. Like, what's it like for a spouse who loves her husband?

[00:44:05] I'm being presumptuous, but I think I'm probably accurate to know he's struggling, not wanting to tiptoe around it. There's valid reasons for that. And then to hear her husband in the woods with the news. I don't know how much detail you gave her and those hearing those three words, because I'll tell you, man, that's a very courageous and I don't, I'm not a back patter. I, this podcast is not for validation. Yeah. Yeah. Plenty of other places for that. This is just for, you know what it's for.

[00:44:33] It takes a lot of balls, Michael, to say, I need help. Did she step up? She did. She asked me if I was safe to drive myself home. I said, yeah, I am. By the time I was home, she was on the phone with, uh, one of the health networks around here. Um, that I would be there from basically eight until three 30 each day.

[00:44:59] And it's, it's really neat how the last thing you do in the day is, is they make you, um, promise that you'll be there the next day and ask you, you know, who is your support person? If you run into trouble, you know, tonight, you do that with absolutely everybody every day. And, um, and again, I found it, I found it to be helpful. I remember, um, being told by the psychiatrist there that, um, you actually get better care in their partial program than you do in their inpatient program. I could see a couple of questions.

[00:45:28] So at that time, cause you were saying how you talk to kids age appropriate, where did they think their father was going then? They knew where I was going. They knew what it was. I, I don't, I don't think either of them knew there was a suicide, um, attempt there, but, uh, but they knew that they knew that, that I was worse than usual, but then, but because of the timing of it, I wasn't really gone that much more than, you know, they wouldn't see me anyway.

[00:45:53] Um, it's interesting because fathers are to kids sort of God-like figures and you're also a pastor, you're a leader. Um, I don't know if you have other roles in your community. I would argue that getting that kind of help is exactly what that kind of person does because if they need to be that kind of leader or parent, they get help. However, a lot of people who I have strong words for and they're not positive would see it otherwise. Yeah.

[00:46:22] And what that means, I think often is that they don't get the help. And what that means often is that I don't get to hear from them because what that means is they end their lives. So you're saving your life. That's what you're doing. It's pretty cool to hear. And I never, I don't really say it that way. Usually how long were you in that program for? It was two weeks. And the, you know, and again, you know, the church gave me those two weeks off. They didn't expect anything from me those two weeks.

[00:46:49] I didn't share the whole extent of, you know, I didn't share where I was and what was in my hand when I made the call. But I shared with them that it's, it's gotten really, really bad and I need this time. And they let me have it. Um, just as, as kind of a medical leave, didn't even count it as vacation or anything. This, this, this congregation is wonderful that way. Let's go Lutheran. Yeah. Yeah. Hey, let me also point out if my math is correct sometime around this point, maybe prior you're writing a memoir. Yeah.

[00:47:18] It was, um, the, the, the, the book was basically done at this point. Wasn't quite published yet. Um, wait, so is it like a big addendum though, because of this? Well, that's the, that's how I've often thought like, do I need to just like start working on book two now? It's maybe not. Maybe sometimes when the story's over, it ends and there's always going to be more, but you don't have to include it. Yeah. So, but that story is not in it because, cause that happened after, after it was written.

[00:47:47] Someone asks a question and maybe you add that extra part, but how many people in your congregation know that you've tried to end your life at any point in your life? Most of them know that I tried to in the past, uh, because that, that, you know, when you tell that story from the standpoint of this happened a long time ago and look where God was in it, you know, that, that tells that, that, that, that preaches, that's a good sermon. Um, a good sermon, but I'm pretty sure 2021 isn't the same. Right. Exactly.

[00:48:17] I thought really hard who I was going to tell about that. And it was a very low number. Everybody knew that I got to a low point that I was having, you know, really real struggles and that's fine. But to know that I got that far and, and, you know, and I don't even know now listening to your podcast, I'm wondering if that's even fair to say, you know, when I think of getting that far, is that is suicide depression gone too far or is it something different? And I think, you know, it sounds like you would say in a lot of cases, it's

[00:48:46] something different, maybe connected, but not. I don't know. I mean, I, I, my answer to that would be, I don't know. I mean, it also probably varies from person to person. It's also really hard to identify or measure. I want to also tell you that I'm not a Lutheran. I don't go to church, but if I heard my pastor talk about it in the present tense, meaning this happened while I was your pastor, that wouldn't scare me away. That would bring me closer to you as my pastor. Okay.

[00:49:13] Now I'm not normal, not, not, not because I'm the Jew. It's because I have a suicide podcast, right? I'm not necessarily your average person who can handle that. And I don't know you or your congregation. So I think we have these levels of vulnerability and they're valid. Like you don't have to go to the extreme, but, and again, people have practical considerations as well.

[00:49:38] And if that risks losing your job or your livelihood or your community standing, I absolutely understand why not just to keep it under the rug and only a handful of people know, but it's still something, man. I mean, I, I, I, I, I respect the fact that you shared it at all. Um, are there other people outside the congregation or your nuclear family that know about it? I mean, I know you wrote a book, but those are mostly strangers. Yeah.

[00:50:05] I mean, I, I am basically an open book when it comes to, uh, comes to depression, when it comes to my, my, my history. But I'll tell you one thing that, that has really been impressed on me since I thought about reaching out to you is how I am not an open book about that 2021 attempt. Um, you know, I, I'm, I'm really careful about that. And as much as I pride myself on being transparent and being, you know, like that's, I think of

[00:50:31] that as my superpower is that I can just, I just tell my story. I don't care. It doesn't, it doesn't, people tell me a lot, a lot that, that they think I'm really brave for sharing this. It doesn't feel like bravery to me. It just feels like this just feels normal. So I guess. It's funny that you say, like people say, and this is a bit of a digression, like, oh, it must be really hard for you to have these conversations. I'm like easiest thing in my life. Yeah. Everything, everything else is hard. I was also thinking, what am I hiding?

[00:50:58] Even though I'm the one more asking the questions than sharing the story is sort of akin to, I share most of it, but not the 2021 one. I'm just wondering, and I'll think about this after we get off the call. Yeah. What am I holding back? And yeah, I mean, everybody holds some stuff back. I think nobody's a totally open book. You create a space, I imagine, as a pastor to do some pretty good listening. I think it's probably a prerequisite. And there's some gospel and there's some preaching. I know that too.

[00:51:26] And there's other educational components and community events. I think it's probably safe to say that your own struggles and attempts and depression probably made you a better listener, more empathetic. I think so. Are there people like you in your life that can hold that kind of space for these kinds of conversations outside of a bald guy who happens to be living in Mexico City and may never see you again? I hope I do. I just may not. I have a therapist I see regularly. I have a spiritual director I see regularly.

[00:51:56] They're paid to do that. Exactly. Yep. Yep. They're professionals. And good. And good. And I hope they do a good job of it. And not all of them do. And I know, I don't know who's going to hear this. So it's a little bit sensitive because for example, you know, if your wife hears this and she's not on that list, she might get pissed off. So it's up to you on how you want to. I understand. Yeah. You know, I feel like, I feel like I have a number of people in my life, including would hold space for this. If I asked for them. That wasn't my question.

[00:52:25] Well, it kind of is. So maybe, let me reframe it. They would hold space. Have you spoken to them about it? Not quite the same thing. No, it's not the same thing. And of course, we don't know until you try, but let's give them the benefit of the doubt. I have from time to time. And usually in the aftermath of a hospital stay or something like that. Not the things are getting really hard. Yeah.

[00:52:50] And you're just white knuckling it, doing your thing, going to work, being a dad, all the stuff, right? But internally, it's shifted. And that's the irony is I, you know, I am so lucky and so blessed in my life that I really do have some really good friends. I really do have a really good family. I have some people at church I could be totally open with about this. Totally. Even in the present tense. And I don't do it. I don't do it until it gets to that point.

[00:53:20] You know, and then it falls apart. And dark waters run deep. Do you ever wish still that that day had turned out differently back in the day, back in the day? When I get into a guilt spiral. Yeah. Yeah. When I feel like I have hurt somebody so much, it's still that same thing. It's when I feel like I've hurt somebody and, and, and I can, I can give it even more weight. Like, like, you know, it's one thing for a 17 year old idiot to hurt somebody. It's another thing for their pastor to hurt them.

[00:53:49] Like, like what have I changed their view of God and all this stuff. And I, I can certainly, certainly wish. Yeah. I certainly do sometimes wish that had gone differently. If I were your friend or in your congregation and I said, pastor Michael, do you think it's possible to get through the world without hurting people? What would you say? I would say no, of course not. It's funny. Of course you can. It's funny to hear it though. Right? Yep. Yep. I mean, you can, if you lock yourself in a room and see another human being, you know, okay.

[00:54:18] But like, if you want to be in the world, active in the world. And if you're already in the world, if you do that, you're hurting the people that you're leaving behind. So, so it's interesting that, that one of your, I hold myself to such a different standard. The thing that if more, it sounds like more than anything else that drives you to contemplate ending your own life is inherently human. Now I'm not being a psychobabble guy here. It's just fascinating. I'm probably not that uncommon.

[00:54:46] And I wonder how many people may not get to the point of an attempt, but, but how many people ideate about this? Oh. Never talking about it. And for, you know, for, for normal everyday reasons, like I just upset my wife. I just upset. Whatever the reasons are, that's actually probably the most interesting group, even more than suicide attempt survivors, although they could have attempted are all the people that I call in the space between.

[00:55:14] And we're going to hear from almost no, none of them because they're not going to talk about it. But once in a while they stumble upon this podcast and by the grace of God or the universe or whatever it is, they trust me enough to share it. And to me, that's a blessing. That's like, if you end your life or somebody, you know, ends their life, do they go to hell? I don't believe that. Do they get to go to heaven?

[00:55:41] Well, or does that depend on all other things they've done in their life? Well, here's where I get a little bit. I don't toe the party line as much. Um, and this is something I would never say to my congregation. Okay. I don't really believe in the afterlife. I really don't. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. I mean, I just think you unpastored yourself. I really don't.

[00:56:05] I mean, I, I, I believe in, I believe that, that God has amazing gifts and beauty for us. And I think there is such a thing as, as the resurrection, but I think that's something that happens to us within our lives. I think, um, it's, it's twofold for me. One is. I just can't, I just can't understand how it can happen. How, how I have absolutely no memories from before I was a baby. And don't think I existed before then yet. I'm going to exist forever in the other direction. That makes no sense to me.

[00:56:34] If I'm finite from one, it has to be finite from the other. Isn't that what faith is called? Yeah, I know. Is that what faith is? For some people. Yes. And, but the other thing about it, I don't want to have an afterlife because I don't want to go on like this forever. Forever. And I am so attached to my own sense of, of, um, you know, depression being part of my psyche that I feel like if I was healed of that, I wouldn't even be me, which is a

[00:57:04] separate issue. But, but to go back to your original issue, your original question, what happens to people suicide after they die? If there is a heaven, the God I worship is a God of forgiveness and mercy and love. And I can't fathom how that could be a game stopper. I think the first thing God would do if, if, you know, if there is something like that, like, you know, you go right in front of the pearly gates and whatever. I think the first thing God does to someone who died of suicide is give them a big hug and say, you're okay now.

[00:57:34] Can we extend that to killers and rapists? I think God can. I don't think I can. We can't. Fair. No, but that's what I mean, what I said earlier about how, you know, I think, you know, if, if, if I can show more forgiveness and grace than God, then I think my understanding of God is, is not big enough. Or your understanding of your ego is inflatable. I'm going to do one of the two. Given what you just shared about not wanting to necessarily be resurrected, like you're good after your life is over. No matter, you're done.

[00:58:04] You're 50 years old. You probably live more than half your life. Let's do the pink and purple pill question, which you're probably familiar with. If you've heard. Right. For the sake of the audience, I'll repeat it. I give Michael a pink and purple pill. If he chooses to take the pill, meaning ingest it, uh, he gently goes to sleep. There is no pain. He does not wake up ever. Nobody knows it's a suicide. What would you do with, uh, with that pill on Friday? Oh, it's Friday the 13th. Early afternoon.

[00:58:34] What, uh, how do you, how do you handle that situation? I was thinking about that a lot the last few days. Cause I, I, I knew you'd ask that I'd have to get rid of it because I know, I know, I know that a day's coming when I would take it. When I was standing in my room, like I was at age 12, wishing there was a gun in my room. Well, that pink and purple pill is that gun. I, I know, I know I would take it. And so I got to get rid of it now. So I don't. Yeah. I mean, if you asked a lot of lay people, it said, get rid of it. Cause I want no desire to do with anything like that.

[00:59:03] But if you asked a lot of my guests, they say, I get rid of it because of that reason. But you just, do you run meds, meds now? Yes. How many do you take every day? I'd say one. We basically want a day. One, one type of antidepressant. Yeah. That helps. I think so. Okay. It doesn't, it doesn't hurt. Um, but yeah, it's hard to know. Why don't I ask you what, if anything in your life does help make you feel better, make you feel less shitty, make you feel less alone, get you through the day, get you through the week.

[00:59:33] Moments when I feel like I've made a difference to somebody and those do happen in my line of work. I would imagine it happens not infrequently. Yeah. And people let me know sometimes too. And that's, that's a, that's a bonus. Yeah. Honestly, my, my regular sessions with my therapist and my spiritual director, because there are moments when I have to talk about this and I have to get my shit together. I don't have to get my shit together exactly, but I have to have my shit in order so I can, I have to put it on paper so I can talk about it.

[01:00:03] There really is a sense in which the best part of those relationships is the accountability that it keeps me shifting in and tuning up every two weeks. My kids help. Do you ideate these days? Yeah. Yeah. How often? In passing, probably every day. Seriously. From time to time, maybe every few months. So when you get to the every few months part, what stops you from taking the next step or the next step after that?

[01:00:32] I think things just don't get bad enough. And I, um, and I'm able to, to kind of say, you know, I, I, I can cope with this and to say, um, even though I'm not sure if any of this means anything, I'm going to give the benefit of the benefit of the doubt to the universe. Um, I'm going to say, you know, maybe, maybe God does have a plan. Maybe, uh, maybe this is for something that I can, and I can get through the next day. I wonder how differently your life would have turned out if you were adopted by a non-religious

[01:01:01] family or not even adopted. You just weren't in a religious family. Having that faith, which I know isn't just a panacea for greatness and everything's wonderful. I know it comes with a lot of conflict and I, I'm sure there's been studies done, but I would bet that people that have a legitimate, consistent practicing faith commit suicide less or try less. I don't know if that's true.

[01:01:26] And I would be curious how much of that is, is out of a feeling that it's, it's morally wrong and how much of it is that they don't want to. I, I'd be curious. Yeah, that's, that's part two to the research. Yeah. Uh, are there any myths or misconceptions around, it could be anything and some of them have kind of come up, but it could be around religion or suicidality or ideating or method or God that you want to dispel and really dispel and say, that's just bullshit.

[01:01:55] You mentioned something about selfishness earlier. Yeah. One thing I would really like to dispel is the thought that if you believe in God, if you have faith, you shouldn't feel like this. And if you feel like this, you clearly don't have enough faith. And I think that's bullshit. You know, uh, faith in God does not, does not give you happy, happy, joy, joy every day. Faith in God. Happy, happy, joy, joy. That's an interesting memoir title. It sure, sure, sure wouldn't be mine. Yeah. I think that's a red and Stimpy reference.

[01:02:26] Faith in God is, is not connected to our physical or mental health. It's a separate thing. And it, well, I shouldn't say it's not connected, but it doesn't, it doesn't change it. You can't pray away mental illness anymore than you can pray with physical illness. All right. Fair enough. One for me. Yeah. Do you, uh, when's your birthday? Uh, December. Sometimes I do these update episodes. You might've noticed that as you were scrolling recently. Yeah. After a year, I'm not married to that number, but it just seems like a good number. Sometimes it's four years.

[01:02:55] So let's just say a year from now, early 2027. Wow. That sounds weird to say. Is there anything in your life that's different? No, I don't think so. Not, not nothing I can predict. Cause I think I feel like I'm able to manage things now well enough. I don't feel like I want to stop ideating. I think it's okay. I, and I think I've shown that if, if I do get too far, I can, I have resources.

[01:03:24] It's like a, it's like an awareness and an acceptance. Yeah. Um, I, I just, I, I, I stopped feeling a long time ago that I could, that this is something I could beat or something I could, you know, that could be cured. It doesn't feel like that. It feels like something to manage and live with. Does it feel like it's something that's wrong with you? No, it feels like something, something I need to watch for. It can be dangerous if I don't manage it. But no, it's not wrong with me.

[01:03:53] It's the way it's, it's just who I am. If I asked you 30 years ago, I think that answer might be different. It would have totally been different. Yeah. I'd be like, no, this is something I'm going to, it might've been, this is something I already beat, but if not, no, I need to get better. I need it. Yeah. Yeah. So today, if somebody close to you comes to you and said, you, Michael, last week we had a conversation. I don't know if you remember it. I don't, but you really, really hurt me. It's going to take me a while to get over it. What do you do with that?

[01:04:21] And I know it depends on the person. No, no, no, no. No, that's, that's generally speaking, because that's not, that was a big thing and may remain a big thing in your life. I think what I do is I don't, I don't hold it inside. I find people I can talk to about it because with talking about it and to remind myself and have other people remind me that, yeah, um, you're going to hurt people in life. And you're going to get hurt too.

[01:04:48] I don't usually ask a question that I send to people for some reason. It's just one of my least favorite questions, but I'm compelled to ask you. Uh, I know time works in weird ways and we don't get to have this luxury. It's not like back to the future movie, but if you could talk to, let's choose either of what was it? 16 or 20 year old, the suicide attempt years, uh, today's Michael, any words to either of those young men?

[01:05:17] Uh, we don't know what would have happened obviously. Cause we can't play with time that way, but would you want to say something to either of them? And I do realize that's kind of an Oprah question, but Hey. Well, I'm the one who wrote a story about going back and that's right. So you gave me a vision. Absolutely. I think I'd say you don't have as much power over other people as you think you do. They're going to be okay. So can you, do you want to share anything else? Oh, just that. I hope I can hear that today.

[01:05:47] I think I still need to hear that today. Well, when you listen back to this episode, I was going to ask you, do you think you'll have the, whatever it is to hear your own voice, uh, on an episode, uh, you know, in a few months from now? Yeah. Yeah. I think I can do that. All right. I'll do my best job to edit and make it sound great. Not that you need much help with that, but you know, we just edit things out a little bit. Do you think you'll share it with people? Cause I'll tell you why I asked that question. It's not because I need more listeners.

[01:06:16] It's not some little hack to get more listeners. It's a unique way to share things. That's not the same as a conversation because you're not in the room necessarily. And it might be two weeks later and they might be going on a walk and that's a different experience hearing husband, father, friend, pastor, whatever it might be. I think I will, you know, I, I, I have a blog that I, uh, I update a little less regularly

[01:06:42] than I wish, but, um, but I, I will probably share this on there after I listen to it. I'll share, I'll share it on there. And, and it, you know, my blog doesn't have a huge listener base, but it certainly has most of my friends and acquaintances. So it's kind of neat though, that I don't know what will happen in the interwebs world, but this is going to live for a while out there. Um, is there a place physical or online that people can learn more about you? I know you have your book. It's called dark water, dark water.

[01:07:12] Um, my, my blog is basically my online place and that the address for that is thescholtes.com T H E S C H O L T E S.com. My last name, thescholtes.com. The book is dark water. The subtitle we don't love, but it's passable. Uh, what's the rest of your day like? Uh, my sister and her family are in from Chicago. So I'm going to go down and have dinner. Yeah.

[01:07:40] In from Chicago, Pennsylvania, family dinner. Sounds nice. 99.8, nine, 5%. The word suicide doesn't come up in that conversation. You're probably right. And I think that's just fine. Yeah. Appreciate you talking, man. I've really enjoyed it. Glad you reached out. I'm glad we connected and talked and, uh, and thank you. Thank you. Really appreciate what you do. All right, man. I hope our paths cross again soon and I hope you enjoy your dinner. As always.

[01:08:10] Thanks so much for listening and all of your support. And special thanks to Michael in Pennsylvania. Thanks, Michael. If you are a suicide attempt survivor or ideator and you'd like to talk, I'd love to talk with you. Please reach out. Hello at suicidenoted.com. Remember, I'd love it if you answered our weekly poll on Spotify. And that's it. That's all for this week's episode. Stay strong. Do the best you can. I'll talk to you soon. Bye. Bye. Thank you.