Mia in Tennessee

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_01] Anywhere I go feels like Times Square on hallucinogens. I'm hearing and seeing things that don't exist, and I'm tasked with figuring out what's real while my cognitive function is already very poor. Voices outside and inside my head speak to me in insulting and degrading ways. Everything becomes significant and important. The way a stranger glances at you, a word on a billboard, or a line in a song, they are all signs meant for you.

[00:00:22] [SPEAKER_01] I thought that people could read my mind. I thought there were microphones in my car. I thought there were cameras in my bathroom. I thought my fear was opening portals, and for some reason, the demons could only come through them if I was in the shower.

[00:00:57] [SPEAKER_00] Hey there, my name is Sean, and this is Suicide Noted. On this podcast, I talk with suicide attempt survivors and ideators so that we can hear their stories. Every year around the world, millions of people try to take their own lives, and we almost never talk about it. We certainly don't talk about it enough, and when we do talk about it, when we engage with people in pain, most of us are not very good at it.

[00:01:19] [SPEAKER_00] Most of us are quite bad at it, and that, of course, is a problem. So one of my goals with this podcast, and some other related initiatives, is to have more conversations, and hopefully better conversations, with survivors, in large part, to help more people in more places. Hopefully, feel a little less shitty, and a little less alone. Now, if you are a survivor, and you'd like to talk, please reach out. Real simple. Hello at suicidenoted.com. I'd love to talk with you.

[00:01:44] [SPEAKER_00] A couple of notes, if you'd like to help us out doing some transcribing. It's actually not transcribing. It's more like spot checking. These transcriptions are almost done, but they need some human review. So you just listen back to the podcast, check a few little errors here and there, and boom, it's done. So if you've got the time, the interest, the energy, reach out to me. We could use the help. And also, not too long ago, I created something called The Missing Record. Themissingrecord.com, if you'd like to learn more.

[00:02:10] [SPEAKER_00] That's a commercial project. That is something I am doing to use my skills to hopefully help people and make some money so that I can expand this work into new places, into new communities, and some other artistic projects. So check it out. Maybe it's something that you're interested in, or perhaps somebody that you know. Finally, we're talking about suicide here on this podcast, as we've been doing for over six years now.

[00:02:33] [SPEAKER_00] My guests and I don't hold back, and I know it's not a good fit for everybody, so please take that into account before you listen or as you listen. But I do hope you listen, because there's so much to learn. Today, I am talking with Mia. Mia lives in Tennessee, and she is a suicide attempt survivor. Mia, what's happening?

[00:02:56] [SPEAKER_01] Nothing. Just ate some McDonald's.

[00:02:57] [SPEAKER_00] Ah, bad choice.

[00:02:59] [SPEAKER_01] I know.

[00:02:59] [SPEAKER_00] But you know it.

[00:03:01] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:03:02] [SPEAKER_00] And it tasted fantastic.

[00:03:04] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, it did.

[00:03:05] [SPEAKER_00] It's the greatest, it's like such an impossible thing when something tastes so good and it's bad for you, which is, that's almost like what the entire podcast is about, really.

[00:03:17] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, I guess you're right.

[00:03:18] [SPEAKER_00] Like, do things to feel good because we're trying to survive, and then some of us decide, nah, fuck this, it's not working. Kind of summed it up. Not great. Yeah. Not my best work, but how are you doing today? How are you doing?

[00:03:33] [SPEAKER_01] I'm doing pretty good. How are you?

[00:03:36] [SPEAKER_00] Probably worse, to be honest with you.

[00:03:38] [SPEAKER_01] Probably worse. Okay.

[00:03:40] [SPEAKER_00] Let's keep it real, but it's not going to be about me, Mia. It's going to be about you.

[00:03:43] [SPEAKER_01] Okay.

[00:03:44] [SPEAKER_00] Like 70% you.

[00:03:46] [SPEAKER_01] That's fair.

[00:03:47] [SPEAKER_00] Where are you from?

[00:03:48] [SPEAKER_01] I'm from Nashville.

[00:03:49] [SPEAKER_00] Your great-great-great-grandfather's from Nashville?

[00:03:53] [SPEAKER_01] No, Mexico. Okay.

[00:03:54] [SPEAKER_00] Okay, that's what I was going for. I know. I know when people who are from countries are asked that question, it's annoying and offensive, but I just want to know because I live in Mexico. You may have no connection to Mexico beyond your heritage. I just think it's interesting.

[00:04:09] [SPEAKER_01] I live in Mexico. I go there a few times a year when I was a kid, less now, but...

[00:04:14] [SPEAKER_00] Where were you going? Where were they? Where was your family?

[00:04:18] [SPEAKER_01] My family lives, like, right on the southern tip of Texas, so we would just, like, kind of drive five minutes down the road, go over the border, get some food, get some toys, and then come back.

[00:04:29] [SPEAKER_00] McDonald's?

[00:04:30] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:04:32] [SPEAKER_00] Part of it is just, like, it's relatively inexpensive, and there are just so many. I'm not going to give enough information away that someone who hears this can find you, but there's two cool pictures above Mia's head. One is called Dinosaur Jr., and the other is called Dazed and Confused. I know one's a movie. I think the other one probably is, too.

[00:04:55] [SPEAKER_01] It's a band.

[00:04:56] [SPEAKER_00] Okay. Are you a punk?

[00:04:59] [SPEAKER_01] Not really. I am wearing, like, a metal shirt right now, but...

[00:05:04] [SPEAKER_00] Are you a metal punk?

[00:05:05] [SPEAKER_01] I guess maybe a little. Feels hypocritical with me to say that, though.

[00:05:09] [SPEAKER_00] But a metal punk, we can't call them a monk.

[00:05:12] Yeah.

[00:05:13] [SPEAKER_00] Because that would be weird. But also, it's kind of funny. Thanks for talking with me.

[00:05:18] [SPEAKER_01] Thank you for talking with me.

[00:05:20] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. I appreciate it. On a Sunday. This is supposed to be the day of rest, no?

[00:05:25] [SPEAKER_01] I guess for some people.

[00:05:26] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. I'm going to go to the gym after this and then go to a class. I'm not resting. I'm not doing shit. How did we find each other?

[00:05:33] [SPEAKER_01] I think, like, most of the people who listen to the podcast, I just search the word suicide on Spotify. Sometimes it's nice to just, like, when you're feeling shitty, to just listen to, like, the most horrible thing that you can.

[00:05:44] [SPEAKER_00] Some people think that way. Yes. Not everybody. And then when was that?

[00:05:47] [SPEAKER_01] That was probably, like, three years ago.

[00:05:50] [SPEAKER_00] Wow. So you've been, I'm going to guess on again, off again listening.

[00:05:54] [SPEAKER_01] I've listened relatively consistently.

[00:05:57] [SPEAKER_00] Nice. Thanks. Oh, wow. You know what I just realized? You're one of the four states I haven't talked to. Really? Holy shit. I'm down to only three now. Yeah. I think that only leaves, weirdly, Delaware. It's not that weird because that is the weirdest state. It doesn't matter what the other two are. Oh, my God. That changes. Now I'm not cranky. I bet if you asked 100 people to spell Tennessee, 85 of them would be wrong.

[00:06:20] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, probably.

[00:06:21] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. You're in Nashville. So does that mean you are into music?

[00:06:25] [SPEAKER_01] Yes, definitely.

[00:06:27] [SPEAKER_00] Are you a musician?

[00:06:28] [SPEAKER_01] I was growing up and now I'm more of a music lover and close proximity to a ton of other musicians.

[00:06:36] [SPEAKER_00] Dazed and confused. Possible memoir title for you? I'm thinking no. And it's already a copyright issue.

[00:06:41] [SPEAKER_01] Not for me. I'm actually, I'm at my ex-boyfriend's apartment. I got him these posters because that's one of his favorite bands and that's one of his favorite movies.

[00:06:50] [SPEAKER_00] But why your ex? Why not your current?

[00:06:52] [SPEAKER_01] We just didn't love each other.

[00:06:55] [SPEAKER_00] Your answers are like clean and crisp and perfectly clear. It's poetry, baby. Mia is making poetry here today. I don't even know if it's me or her, but it's her. Mia in Tennessee. It rolls off my tongue. It's a new state. You're at your ex-boyfriend's house. That begs the question, why are you not simply assuming you're housed? I'm going to make the assumption you have a home.

[00:07:17] [SPEAKER_01] I am temporarily staying with my parents. And I don't want to talk about this stuff with them anywhere.

[00:07:25] [SPEAKER_00] Right. So you're alone?

[00:07:27] [SPEAKER_01] He's in the other room.

[00:07:29] [SPEAKER_00] Oh, does he know that you're talking to me?

[00:07:31] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:07:31] [SPEAKER_00] Does he know what we're talking about?

[00:07:33] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:07:34] [SPEAKER_00] Does he really know what we're talking about?

[00:07:36] [SPEAKER_01] I haven't given him like gory details in the past, but.

[00:07:40] [SPEAKER_00] We don't need to get into the gore unless you want to. You heard these stories on podcasts for a long time. What made you want to actually reach out and talk?

[00:07:50] [SPEAKER_01] I've kind of come to a point in my life where like, I feel like even though things are so hard, obviously, they're always going to be that way for me. But I've gotten to a point in my life where I feel like I kind of have a grip on it for the people in my life that don't know these things. I kind of want to have something to show them to be like, hey, all this time we've known each other. I never told you this shit, but this is what's been a huge part of my life.

[00:08:16] [SPEAKER_00] My. So why do this? This is a broader question. What is it about us wanting people to just know what happened, even if we're through it?

[00:08:24] [SPEAKER_01] I feel like wanting to die has shaped me so much as a person, like in my day to day life. Like now that I'm not like actively hiding it to like preserve my own. I don't know. I didn't want to get like locked up before while I was like really going through it. But now it's like, I don't know. I kind of want to get it off my chest, I guess.

[00:08:46] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. And you can do that by simply sharing a link.

[00:08:50] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. Yeah. It's a lot easier than talking about it.

[00:08:53] [SPEAKER_00] It's a lot easier than talking about it. Just send the link.

[00:08:56] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:08:57] [SPEAKER_00] And go to McDonald's or go work out or go to the work or go live your life and then wait for what happens the next day or two after.

[00:09:06] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah.

[00:09:07] [SPEAKER_00] You know what would bother me? Because this has happened to me if nothing happened after.

[00:09:12] [SPEAKER_01] I don't know if that would bother me or be like a huge relief.

[00:09:14] [SPEAKER_00] Right. You grew up in Texas?

[00:09:17] [SPEAKER_01] Tennessee.

[00:09:18] [SPEAKER_00] Oh, so you were always in Tennessee.

[00:09:20] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. I've always been in Tennessee. My oldest brother lives in Texas and all my like extended family.

[00:09:25] [SPEAKER_00] The state has to be in with a T in order for the grossiest to live there. Yes. How many other options do you have? Texas and I think that's it. That's it.

[00:09:36] [SPEAKER_01] I think that's it. Yeah.

[00:09:38] [SPEAKER_00] I think those are the only two places your family can live. Nashville could be worse. I've never been there. I heard it's pretty nice.

[00:09:44] [SPEAKER_01] When I went into the McDonald's earlier, I was like so shook because there was it's called the Radio McDonald's because it's like Music City. Right. Right. And there was just this like old ass man playing Poncho and Lefty by Towns Van Zandt on an acoustic guitar in the McDonald's. And I fucking cried. I was like, that is beautiful.

[00:10:04] [SPEAKER_00] Wow. Last night, somebody I was walking around and they were on their balcony singing, playing an acoustic guitar. And you're like, you're just doing that? And yeah, they're just doing that.

[00:10:12] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah.

[00:10:12] [SPEAKER_00] And you can. And McDonald's is okay with it?

[00:10:15] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah.

[00:10:16] [SPEAKER_00] If it wasn't in the Music City McDonald's, they probably would have been jerks. I'm like, sir, sorry. Here's a question I have. I don't think I've ever asked. Is there anything about what we're about to talk about that is terrifying for you?

[00:10:29] [SPEAKER_01] Not really. I mean, it's my life. So I feel like I'm like, everything feels normal to me about it. Even things that would probably be pretty abnormal to someone else. It's just like, I don't know. That's just like kind of my day to day. Yeah.

[00:10:45] [SPEAKER_00] Like, that sounds terrifying. And maybe it wasn't. It was your day to day.

[00:10:50] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah.

[00:10:50] [SPEAKER_00] That's what I think a lot of people don't understand. Which I've been learning over six years is like, it's not what you think it is. At least for the people I talk to, right? I don't have, I think I also attract a certain kind of person.

[00:11:02] [SPEAKER_01] Think it's the title.

[00:11:03] [SPEAKER_00] It might be the title. Do you remember the first time in your life, more or less, that you started to think about ending your life?

[00:11:11] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, pretty clearly. I was a pretty depressive kid. Like, I think from the time I was like 11, I was like just feeling like shit like all the time. And then when I was 15, it was the first time I understood that I was hallucinating something. Obviously, like, I'm like relatively young.

[00:11:34] [SPEAKER_01] So the first thing I do is get on like Google, start like looking up what's going on and reading about like schizophrenia. One of the first things it tells you is this is a chronic condition. It's the rest of your life. And I was like, well, I'm not going to go another 60 years dealing with this. So it was pretty quickly after I started experiencing hallucinations that I started thinking about killing myself.

[00:11:59] [SPEAKER_00] Right. So we use the word terrifying before.

[00:12:01] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:12:02] [SPEAKER_00] At 15 years old, you see that you have what might be a condition that is never going to change, which in your mind at that time means I'm going to have these kinds of hallucinations forever.

[00:12:12] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:12:13] [SPEAKER_00] That's terrifying.

[00:12:14] [SPEAKER_01] At the time, yeah, I was pretty terrifying.

[00:12:15] [SPEAKER_00] I mean, are you kidding me? When you say hallucinations, what does that mean or look like?

[00:12:21] [SPEAKER_01] It used to be different. I used to hear voices and see people and things that weren't there. And now it's like a little more subtle, like things changing colors, hearing ambient noises, stuff like that.

[00:12:36] [SPEAKER_00] So you still have it?

[00:12:37] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. Yeah.

[00:12:39] [SPEAKER_00] Is it treatable?

[00:12:40] [SPEAKER_01] I'm on a lot of medication. I go to therapy.

[00:12:42] [SPEAKER_00] How much time goes by before you attempt to take your life?

[00:12:45] [SPEAKER_01] Probably between three and six months.

[00:12:48] [SPEAKER_00] Oh, okay.

[00:12:49] [SPEAKER_01] From that. And I would definitely call it like a near attempt. I didn't go through with it, you know, but I remember I was, it was New Year's Eve. I was at home just sitting on my bed as the balls dropping. And I was like, I don't want to, like the thought of like a new start, like was very scary. So sitting on my bed with the razor blade, like pressed to my, my wrist, making like a game time decision. I don't really know why I didn't do it, but I did it.

[00:13:18] [SPEAKER_00] It's hard.

[00:13:20] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:13:21] [SPEAKER_00] And most people don't get it right.

[00:13:23] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. That's, that's a thing now that I'm scared of is like not, not doing it right. Yeah.

[00:13:28] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. So, and as, and as a result of that, dot, dot, dot, that's why in some point in the next 30 to 45 minutes, I'll ask you about a pink and purple pill.

[00:13:36] [SPEAKER_02] I figured you would.

[00:13:37] [SPEAKER_00] Of course. Why? I mean, it's insulting not to. Of course. Of course. So, so you didn't do it. Is that weird? So you're sitting in your, you know, you're a teenager. You're not out that night with your friends celebrating New Year's or family because you're alone in your bedroom. This is a tough one. I don't even know the words, but like, what does it feel like to kind of come close and then just say no, but you're still the same, the same problems and hallucinations and fear of future and so on.

[00:14:03] [SPEAKER_01] Um, I spoke to a friend about this recently who he's also, uh, he's attempted suicide. The thing we were talking about is like how, like when you almost do it and then you don't, nothing happens. Nobody knows in your head. It's like this huge dramatic thing that just happened. And like, you just walk out of your room and you say, what's up?

[00:14:26] [SPEAKER_00] And right.

[00:14:27] [SPEAKER_01] Continue on.

[00:14:28] [SPEAKER_00] It's all you can do.

[00:14:29] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:14:30] [SPEAKER_00] Unless you share it with somebody. And I, I'm almost sure you. You didn't. No, I didn't. Like, have you ever shared it with anyone?

[00:14:36] [SPEAKER_01] Uh, that one I only shared with my ex who's apartment I'm at right now.

[00:14:41] [SPEAKER_00] Right. But you were not dating him then?

[00:14:43] [SPEAKER_01] No, we were friends.

[00:14:45] [SPEAKER_00] Really?

[00:14:46] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:14:47] [SPEAKER_00] All right. So you've known this dude for a while. That makes, now, now I'm starting to understand.

[00:14:51] [SPEAKER_01] I've known him since I was five, actually.

[00:14:53] [SPEAKER_00] All right. So at one point you started dating, didn't work out, still friends. It's bottom two nice poster things, framed pictures. So that was that. Were there other near attempts or attempts after that 16, 15, 16 year old time?

[00:15:06] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. There was one a few years ago. I'm 29 now. This was when I was, I think, I don't know, 26 or something. 24. I don't even remember. I remember the day. It was February 6th.

[00:15:18] [SPEAKER_00] How can you remember the day?

[00:15:20] [SPEAKER_01] I don't know.

[00:15:21] [SPEAKER_00] I mean, unless it happens to be like your birthday or something. Like, you remember the day.

[00:15:25] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, I remember the day.

[00:15:26] [SPEAKER_00] What time was it?

[00:15:27] [SPEAKER_01] It was in the morning.

[00:15:29] [SPEAKER_00] What happened on that?

[00:15:30] [SPEAKER_01] The same apartment.

[00:15:31] [SPEAKER_00] Oh. Oh, the apartment you're in now.

[00:15:33] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, the apartment I'm in now. I used to live here. I moved out.

[00:15:37] [SPEAKER_00] Right. Okay. So just to be clear, the first one was where you grew up. This one is where you are talking to me now.

[00:15:43] [SPEAKER_01] Yes.

[00:15:44] [SPEAKER_00] In the same room?

[00:15:45] [SPEAKER_01] This is in the bedroom.

[00:15:46] [SPEAKER_00] Where he is now.

[00:15:47] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:15:48] [SPEAKER_00] I just love how all these little things come together. So you're dating. And at that time, you were dating him.

[00:15:54] [SPEAKER_01] Yes.

[00:15:55] [SPEAKER_00] Did he know how much you were struggling?

[00:15:57] [SPEAKER_01] He knows that I'm like always struggling.

[00:16:00] [SPEAKER_00] Right.

[00:16:01] [SPEAKER_01] So I don't think it was necessarily like a thing of like, oh, she's like really struggling right now. I think it was just like the same amount as usual.

[00:16:09] [SPEAKER_00] And what'd you do?

[00:16:10] [SPEAKER_01] Same thing. I was going to slip my wrists. But it was kind of an impulse decision. I was obviously feeling bad for a long time before that. But I woke up and I had a bottle of rum and I was like, just started taking shots. I would sit on the bed and then I would get up and I would walk to the desk and then I would go sit back down. And I was just like, I could do it right now. Like before he gets home. I probably went on like that for like four hours trying to decide.

[00:16:37] [SPEAKER_01] And then at some point I just was like, I'm just going to lay down and wait till he comes home. And he got home from work and I didn't tell him for another year.

[00:16:47] [SPEAKER_00] What did he say?

[00:16:48] [SPEAKER_01] I don't remember. It must have not been that profound.

[00:16:52] [SPEAKER_00] I mean, he knows you. It's not the same as hearing that somebody was thinking about killing themselves, but you get to know people, you know?

[00:16:58] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:16:59] [SPEAKER_00] Especially when you're cohabitating. So those were the two closeies.

[00:17:02] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. And then I was hospitalized another time separate from those two.

[00:17:07] [SPEAKER_00] Forced?

[00:17:08] [SPEAKER_01] They kind of tricked me into it. Because like they do the thing where they're like, oh, well, if you go voluntarily, you can sign yourself out. But if not, we're going to commit you. So I signed myself in, obviously, because I was like, well, then I'm just going to leave as soon as possible. And then they still wouldn't let me go when I wanted to leave. Here's the thing. If you're in the hospital for suicidal ideation and you tell them you're suicidal, they're like, oh, well, you can't leave. What are we doing here?

[00:17:34] [SPEAKER_00] This is one of the bigger points of confusion for me. So you go in because you're feeling suicidal. You're checking yourself in so that you have an out. That was part of the deal.

[00:17:45] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah.

[00:17:46] [SPEAKER_00] You're no different a few days in. You feel the same way.

[00:17:49] [SPEAKER_02] Yes.

[00:17:49] [SPEAKER_00] But now you can't leave. You wonder why they aren't more transparent about that. Like what's in it for them? It's kind of a reason.

[00:17:56] [SPEAKER_01] They just don't want to get in trouble, I guess.

[00:17:58] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. No, I think that's 100% correct. Again, you're nailing it. They just don't want to get into trouble. But then and we're not going to get into all of this because I certainly don't know the answers. It's just speculation. But you wonder why the system is built so that they would get in trouble should you leave and then obviously do something.

[00:18:14] [SPEAKER_01] It's really, I feel like, not their business in the first place. Like I can ask for help if I want help. If I want to kill myself, that's kind of like my own decision, you know?

[00:18:23] [SPEAKER_00] They don't see it that way usually.

[00:18:25] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:18:26] [SPEAKER_00] I think that's at the core of the problem. What some people would say is the exact, like it's your crazy talk. But I think that truly the core of the problem. And because all it does is silence people. Like as a result of these policies, what happens is Mia just doesn't talk about it.

[00:18:41] [SPEAKER_01] Right. Yeah. After I got out, like the biggest reason I have not like said anything to anyone about it or even attempted is because I do not want to be back in that situation.

[00:18:54] [SPEAKER_00] Right. And so that means you have to be careful what you say to your therapist.

[00:18:57] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:18:57] [SPEAKER_00] Or other people who you may not even realize, I'm not trying to be conspiratorial here, are or can act as mandated reporters or say it's duty of care as a human being. And that is actually shifting more towards lay people.

[00:19:10] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah.

[00:19:10] [SPEAKER_00] Which is really fucking scary because if your ex-boyfriend right now is really fucking pissed at you, guess what he can do?

[00:19:16] [SPEAKER_01] He can call the cops and say, he's going to kill herself.

[00:19:19] [SPEAKER_00] Not that he would, but he could. And that is a slippery slope. Yes. That is going to create more chaos and confusion and litigation and more suicides, I think.

[00:19:30] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah.

[00:19:31] [SPEAKER_00] The idea that that's even a possibility is just astounding to me. That's nothing original. People have heard me say that before. How long were you in the hospital for?

[00:19:39] [SPEAKER_01] A week.

[00:19:40] [SPEAKER_00] How wonderful was that experience for you?

[00:19:43] [SPEAKER_01] It was so bad.

[00:19:45] [SPEAKER_00] That's not hyperbole. It was so, so bad.

[00:19:48] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. And like when you go into the hospital and when you go into a mental ward, people are there because most of them have emotional issues, not psychotic issues. And so the other patients there who I would argue were way more crazy than I was made me feel bad because I was schizophrenic. They said things that made me feel bad.

[00:20:10] [SPEAKER_00] Wow. Right. And this is another rip on hospitals is that we're just like dumping a bunch of different people who really need to be in different places together.

[00:20:19] [SPEAKER_02] Yes.

[00:20:20] [SPEAKER_00] And there's harm being done there. There's damage being done there. Tell me where in the world you could read or learn about that publicly. Have access to it.

[00:20:29] [SPEAKER_01] I don't know of anywhere.

[00:20:30] [SPEAKER_00] There might be a place or two, but if I'm the guy who's done this for six years and I can't find it, the average person isn't finding it either. Isn't that interesting? So you get through the week. I mean, is there anything about it? A change in medication, a doctor you talk to, some good food. Is there not one kernel of something positive?

[00:20:49] [SPEAKER_01] There was one positive kernel. I never had like a great relationship with my dad growing up. Like I actually didn't have much of a relationship with him at all. There was this man I met in the hospital who was, you know, an older guy. I think he had like lost custody of his kids or something. I was really young when this happened. I was like 19. We formed like a really strong bond with each other. It was like a nice like father-daughter type relationship.

[00:21:17] [SPEAKER_01] And as hard as being in there was, he did make it a lot easier.

[00:21:23] [SPEAKER_00] One person.

[00:21:24] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:21:25] [SPEAKER_00] Not just any person.

[00:21:26] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:21:27] [SPEAKER_00] When it's the right person, how it can help. So 15, you start hallucinating. 15, 16 is near attempt. 19 is this hospitalization. And then 26 was with the rum in the apartment we're talking.

[00:21:41] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah.

[00:21:41] [SPEAKER_00] A year later, which would have been a couple years ago, you told your then boyfriend. Friend.

[00:21:46] [SPEAKER_02] Yes.

[00:21:47] [SPEAKER_00] I love that you guys are friends.

[00:21:48] [SPEAKER_01] I do too.

[00:21:49] [SPEAKER_00] He can come on and join us if you want him to. I mean, I'm cool with that.

[00:21:52] [SPEAKER_01] I think he's napping.

[00:21:55] [SPEAKER_00] You think you're going to tell him how it went?

[00:21:56] [SPEAKER_01] Definitely.

[00:21:57] [SPEAKER_00] No, I feel pressure. You're like, oh, this guy was kind of a dick. He was cranky middle-aged mad. But all your life. So one of the things that stuck out that you said, you shared some things that are big things like near attempts. And you said basically for most of your life, you've been, I don't know if the word was struggling or depressed or something like that.

[00:22:16] [SPEAKER_01] Struggling, I would say.

[00:22:18] [SPEAKER_00] Struggling. You've certainly seen some doctors.

[00:22:21] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, lots.

[00:22:22] [SPEAKER_00] And I know if you get medication, and I know you're on a few, that you see someone for that.

[00:22:27] [SPEAKER_01] Yes.

[00:22:27] [SPEAKER_00] What are the diagnoses you've gotten that you feel are correct?

[00:22:31] [SPEAKER_01] I had a few diagnoses, like leading up to my current one. When I was younger, they were afraid to diagnose me as schizophrenic. So they diagnosed me with mood disorder. It was mood disorder unspecified. After that, it was major depression with psychotic features. But then I had my first manic episode. So they switched it to schizoaffective disorder, bipolar one type.

[00:22:59] [SPEAKER_00] And this is when you're a teenager, this is happening? Or in your 20s, when all this is sort of getting figured out?

[00:23:03] [SPEAKER_01] My first manic episode was when I was 23.

[00:23:06] [SPEAKER_00] Okay. So your 20s have been tough.

[00:23:08] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:23:09] [SPEAKER_00] Well, you're part of your teens too. Your life has been hard.

[00:23:11] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:23:12] [SPEAKER_00] I'm guessing from 15 to 29, you ideate somewhat regularly. Though from what you shared when we first started talking, it's not as bad now. Am I accurate there?

[00:23:22] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah.

[00:23:23] [SPEAKER_00] So how often is it in the last six months, 2026, how often do you think about killing yourself?

[00:23:30] [SPEAKER_01] So here's the thing. I would say I have suicidal thoughts several times a day. But I wouldn't call myself suicidal, like actively suicidal.

[00:23:39] [SPEAKER_00] Actively would be your planning?

[00:23:41] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:23:42] [SPEAKER_00] Or at least fantasizing maybe is also another way people do it.

[00:23:46] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. I mean, I fantasize, but I'm not going to do it like right now.

[00:23:50] [SPEAKER_00] I'm not going to do it right now. So thank you for not ending your life while we're talking. That would be actually really hard on me. You're welcome. And I don't want that for you. Right now means that are you the person who's likely going to die by suicide? You just don't know when?

[00:24:05] [SPEAKER_01] I would say I got like a 50-50 shot, maybe.

[00:24:08] [SPEAKER_00] What's the 50 that gets you through life naturally?

[00:24:11] [SPEAKER_01] So my life is like just a constant like series of like episodes. So when they're happening, I'm like, fuck this. But then it kind of fades away and I feel like myself for a little bit. And then I'm like, oh, this is fun.

[00:24:26] [SPEAKER_00] The frequency and the, for lack of a better word, depth of the episodes. If it happens twice a year is different than if it happens twice a month. Like how often? Because then it so affects relationships and wars and everything.

[00:24:40] [SPEAKER_01] It happens like once every like one to three months. I'll have like a week or a really bad week or two. And in those times, even I find myself really unpredictable, which is why like I would never own a firearm because it's just like I'm really impulsive sometimes. And if I'm feeling bad, who knows? I might just do it.

[00:24:59] [SPEAKER_00] And this is the kind of thing I would imagine you probably have to tell a partner. And you could lie your way out of it. I'm sure you've done that plenty in your life. We all have with this stuff. But like, and then it depends. Like, do you have a job?

[00:25:11] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:25:12] [SPEAKER_00] What do you do for work?

[00:25:13] [SPEAKER_01] I am a specimen processor at a toxicology lab.

[00:25:17] [SPEAKER_00] So can you work when you're having an episode?

[00:25:20] [SPEAKER_01] Most of the time. I would say like the vast majority of the time I'm able to pull it off. It's just like really fucking hard.

[00:25:26] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. And when you're in it, do you know it's not permanent?

[00:25:29] [SPEAKER_01] Logically, yes.

[00:25:31] [SPEAKER_00] Logically, you do know it's going to go away.

[00:25:33] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. Yeah. But it kind of like when you're in it, it feels like not only is it always going to be that way, but it also feels like it's always been that way. I feel like I can't remember like what it's like to like feel like myself. I feel like when I am feeling like myself, I'm like a very kind of laid back person. I don't know. I just like think everything's funny and like to have a good time.

[00:25:58] [SPEAKER_01] And then like something happens and I'm like suddenly like everything is like the worst thing that's ever happened. Do you know?

[00:26:05] [SPEAKER_00] Are you more the type to go in or go out? Meaning do you kind of cave in, stay in your bedroom or do you flip the fuck out of people?

[00:26:12] [SPEAKER_01] I used to freak out and now I go in.

[00:26:15] [SPEAKER_00] Because you know it's possible.

[00:26:16] [SPEAKER_01] Yes.

[00:26:18] [SPEAKER_00] Let's be really just like, so don't own a gun.

[00:26:20] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:26:20] [SPEAKER_00] So like now, so now I'm talking to you now, you're not in an episode, correct?

[00:26:24] [SPEAKER_01] Right. I feel fine right now.

[00:26:25] [SPEAKER_00] If you had scheduled this appointment in an episode you could feel coming on, would you have rescheduled? Yes. Okay. Because it would have been just not the right time to talk about it.

[00:26:34] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah.

[00:26:34] [SPEAKER_00] Are you somebody who can ever imagine saying, I'm not only pretty good, I'm fucking amazing.

[00:26:41] [SPEAKER_02] No, absolutely not. No way.

[00:26:45] [SPEAKER_00] That's like pretty good is as good as it's going to get.

[00:26:49] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. Which is not bad. Yeah, it's pretty good.

[00:26:53] [SPEAKER_00] It's literally pretty good. Livable. You work, you have a job. Not that that's the measure or the bar, but why do you live with your parents now?

[00:27:00] [SPEAKER_01] It actually has nothing to do with my mental health. I was living with a roommate and he was one of my close friends and he started dating this girl who I like really couldn't stand. And I moved out for that reason.

[00:27:12] [SPEAKER_00] Okay. It's just interesting. Can be challenging for some. I don't know. Are you close with them now? You said your dad you were not close with.

[00:27:18] [SPEAKER_01] Growing up, my dad is a very successful guitar player. And so he was on tour for my entire childhood most of the time. When he would come home for brief periods of time, he would be really drunk and like usually pretty angry. So I was basically raised by my mom like single-handedly, which is probably worse than being raised by my father. She's like very mean-spirited, aggressive.

[00:27:45] [SPEAKER_01] But it's kind of interesting now because living with them, I've gotten really, really close to my dad over however many months I've been there now. Not only do we have a relationship for the first time ever, but it's like actually a really good one.

[00:28:00] [SPEAKER_00] So things flipped a little bit.

[00:28:02] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:28:03] [SPEAKER_00] But still a little bit unlucky in the gene pool.

[00:28:05] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. Yeah. I think my dad's schizophrenic.

[00:28:08] [SPEAKER_00] And so one of the ways he would treat it is drink?

[00:28:10] [SPEAKER_01] Yes.

[00:28:11] [SPEAKER_00] I think that's probably what most people do.

[00:28:13] [SPEAKER_01] That's what I've done.

[00:28:14] [SPEAKER_00] Drink and drug. I mean, you just got to get through that. You feel a little better because you feel like shit. It's so straightforward. Well, you see, you don't need to tell me his name, but is he kind of like famous in a way that I might know who he is?

[00:28:23] [SPEAKER_01] You would 100% know who he plays for.

[00:28:26] [SPEAKER_00] And is your dad still touring?

[00:28:28] [SPEAKER_01] He is sometimes.

[00:28:30] [SPEAKER_00] Benny's a guitar player.

[00:28:31] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:28:32] [SPEAKER_00] Then do you play also?

[00:28:33] [SPEAKER_01] I can play violin.

[00:28:34] [SPEAKER_00] No shit. Do your parents know about your struggles?

[00:28:38] [SPEAKER_01] The only thing they know is what my diagnosis is and that I was once in a hospital.

[00:28:44] [SPEAKER_00] They had to know or you told them?

[00:28:46] [SPEAKER_01] I was living with them at the time.

[00:28:48] [SPEAKER_00] Okay. Oh, that makes sense. They have no idea about razor blades or rum.

[00:28:52] [SPEAKER_02] No.

[00:28:53] [SPEAKER_00] Okay. And they're going to maybe?

[00:28:55] [SPEAKER_02] No.

[00:28:56] [SPEAKER_00] Oh, so when you say you're going to share with people, you didn't mean them?

[00:28:59] [SPEAKER_02] Not them, no.

[00:29:00] [SPEAKER_00] This is more like friends or other family members?

[00:29:04] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. My brothers, my friends.

[00:29:07] [SPEAKER_00] You think any of them will? It doesn't even need to be said. Don't tell mom and dad.

[00:29:11] [SPEAKER_01] No one would ever tell mom and dad.

[00:29:13] [SPEAKER_00] It's a given. Do you think they would want to know?

[00:29:15] [SPEAKER_01] One of my, I have three brothers. One of them is genuinely very curious and inquisitive about my life and my problems. And I think he would really like to know more about it. The other two, I think it would probably just make them worry. But also, like, I feel like I kind of want them to know anyway.

[00:29:36] [SPEAKER_00] Who knows what kind of conversations that might open up, though? Like other people struggling and they didn't tell you.

[00:29:40] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:29:41] [SPEAKER_00] I mean, that's one of the, I think that's one of the cool things about at least people hearing this or being able to share it. Is there only one person who knows we're talking?

[00:29:49] [SPEAKER_01] I told him and I told my best friend that I was, I literally said I'm doing a podcast about suicide. And she was like, cool.

[00:29:58] [SPEAKER_00] That was that just cool?

[00:30:00] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:30:01] [SPEAKER_00] So she must know then.

[00:30:02] [SPEAKER_01] I talk to her pretty openly about things that I'm feeling. But once it starts getting a little bit, like, too heavy, then I kind of keep things from her.

[00:30:11] [SPEAKER_00] So how many people know about either of those near attempts?

[00:30:14] [SPEAKER_01] I think my ex-boyfriend is the only person who knows about the first time. One of my other close friends are the only people I've talked to about the second.

[00:30:21] [SPEAKER_00] What are the reasons why we don't talk more about it to people? There's a few obvious ones that come to mind, right? Like they're going to judge. There's another one is I might get hospitalized. There's shame attached to it for some people. There's worry that they're going to worry about me. Like, those are like some common ones. Are there other ones that come to mind to you? We just like, I'm just not talking about this.

[00:30:42] [SPEAKER_01] Well, with like, not only like suicidal ideation, but also like the schizoaffective disorder. These are things that I would like never really talk about with people before. But now it's, it almost feels easier to like be a little bit open about it because there's times when it's just fucking obvious. And it's, it feels better to like let people know on my own accord than have something happen and then be like, what is going on with you?

[00:31:11] [SPEAKER_00] So what would you say? Like, I'm like, what would be the type of thing you would say? Like, I'm going through an episode. I have this disorder or condition.

[00:31:19] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. Something like that.

[00:31:21] [SPEAKER_00] Hmm. How do they respond?

[00:31:23] [SPEAKER_01] People are definitely a little freaked out when I first start telling them about these things, but I have a tendency to make a joke out of everything. Once you start like talking about it, like, and let them know that you're not freaked out by it, then it makes them feel more comfortable.

[00:31:39] [SPEAKER_00] I think they call it gallows humor.

[00:31:40] [SPEAKER_01] Really?

[00:31:41] [SPEAKER_00] There's a word for it. Yeah. I might be using that incorrectly. Way to kind of deflect, but like there's some truth to it, but don't worry, I'm fine.

[00:31:49] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah.

[00:31:49] [SPEAKER_00] I think that people are probably just as freaked out about schizoaffective than suicide.

[00:31:55] [SPEAKER_01] I wonder which, if you took a poll.

[00:31:57] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. I'd love to.

[00:31:58] [SPEAKER_01] Like, which one people would find more scary.

[00:32:00] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. I think schizoaffective disorder makes some people think you might be a harm to me.

[00:32:05] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah.

[00:32:06] [SPEAKER_00] Whereas suicide less or just simply different. And I mean, again, unless they are really into it, where are they learning about these things? Like in a movie, it's rarely portrayed accurately.

[00:32:17] [SPEAKER_01] I don't think I've ever seen an accurate portrayal in any media. Yeah. I've seen these videos come up on YouTube where it's like, oh, like live footage of a person with schizophrenia, like having up hallucinations. And they're like all over the place, like acting all nuts. And I'm like, literally when it's happening, I'm just sitting there like staring.

[00:32:38] [SPEAKER_00] Right.

[00:32:38] [SPEAKER_01] You know, it's not very theatrical.

[00:32:41] [SPEAKER_00] Mm-hmm. Right. And they need theater. They need spectacle. Usually. I mean, a good, good movie doesn't, but they're hard to find. Is that where the movie would start though with Mia? Mia's movie. She's just sitting there.

[00:32:56] [SPEAKER_01] Surprise.

[00:32:56] [SPEAKER_00] Surprise. We don't even, and we don't know why the memoir is going to start either because we're never going to write it probably.

[00:33:02] [SPEAKER_01] No, it's too hard.

[00:33:03] [SPEAKER_00] Do you ever wish, as we sit here today, and I realize maybe, you know, I could have asked you last month, maybe the answers are different. But do you ever wish either of those near attempts you had just gone through with it and you were dead?

[00:33:16] [SPEAKER_01] Sometimes, yes. Most of the time, no. I have like all the medication in the world at my hands, like in my hands and at any moment. So it would be really easy to overdose. But here's my thing.

[00:33:27] [SPEAKER_00] Mm-hmm.

[00:33:28] [SPEAKER_01] If you're going to do it, like let's do it.

[00:33:31] [SPEAKER_00] You don't want to live.

[00:33:32] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:33:33] [SPEAKER_00] And you have access to enough medication that could potentially kill you, but.

[00:33:39] [SPEAKER_02] But I might live.

[00:33:40] [SPEAKER_00] Probably will live.

[00:33:42] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah.

[00:33:43] [SPEAKER_00] So then you're all fucked up maybe.

[00:33:45] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah.

[00:33:46] [SPEAKER_00] Now people know you tried to kill yourself.

[00:33:48] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah.

[00:33:49] [SPEAKER_00] Now you can never, ever, people say anything to anyone ever or you're going back to the hospital. Right. Like it just makes things worse. And you're alive. Whether people say I just wanted the pain to go away or I really wanted to be dead. And I'm not saying those are the same two things. If you overdose, you don't want to be here and you're still here. And like you said, after your attempt or near attempt, it's just, and then you just go on with your day.

[00:34:16] [SPEAKER_01] And I also have this thing about like, you only die once. Everyone dies, but we only do it once.

[00:34:23] [SPEAKER_00] Some people have different beliefs, but I'm down with you. I'm down, I'm down. I'm down.

[00:34:27] [SPEAKER_01] Okay. Why not really experience that? So it's like, if I'm going to do it, I would like to make it pretty painful.

[00:34:34] [SPEAKER_00] Oh. So we're going to change some of the pink and purple components for you.

[00:34:39] [SPEAKER_01] Okay.

[00:34:40] [SPEAKER_00] How many people do you have that you can talk to about feeling suicidal and have a good conversation or at least a decent conversation on that subject?

[00:34:48] [SPEAKER_01] One.

[00:34:48] [SPEAKER_00] Is he in the apartment right now?

[00:34:51] [SPEAKER_01] No.

[00:34:52] [SPEAKER_00] It's the other one?

[00:34:54] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, the other one.

[00:34:56] [SPEAKER_00] So you're not going to tell him?

[00:34:58] [SPEAKER_01] This guy is very logical. Not very good with feelings.

[00:35:03] [SPEAKER_00] Did you know that early on in the relationship? Yeah, you've known him forever. So you knew everything.

[00:35:07] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:35:08] [SPEAKER_00] Not very good with feelings. I wonder how many people are, quote, not very good with feelings. And does it skew more towards men?

[00:35:15] [SPEAKER_01] Probably.

[00:35:17] [SPEAKER_00] Probably. You wonder.

[00:35:18] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:35:19] [SPEAKER_00] But by the way, sorry, ladies. Some of you suck at it, too.

[00:35:21] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:35:22] [SPEAKER_00] You're not all amazing at communicating your feelings or listening either. A lot of people are bad at it.

[00:35:28] [SPEAKER_01] I don't think I'm even very good with feelings.

[00:35:30] [SPEAKER_00] Can you hear them easier than share them?

[00:35:33] [SPEAKER_01] Yes. Yes.

[00:35:34] [SPEAKER_00] Like if I was in pain, we're not going to role play here, but if it was me or we were friends, maybe your friend you talked about and they were struggling, you think you're a decent person to talk to.

[00:35:41] [SPEAKER_02] Okay.

[00:35:42] [SPEAKER_00] Do you think, I mean, this is a dumb question. It's not even a question. What you've gone through has to have in part informed that sense of empathy or something. It has to have, no?

[00:35:51] [SPEAKER_01] Like throughout my life, people have kind of always just not like dumped, but like just told me things that I never asked. Very personal things like just sharing secrets and stuff like that with me. I never knew why, but I think it's because maybe people can tell that I've had kind of a fucked up life and they're like, oh, she'll get it.

[00:36:11] [SPEAKER_00] You think they can tell?

[00:36:12] [SPEAKER_01] I think so.

[00:36:14] [SPEAKER_00] You think, it's like I'm looking at you right now. Like I wouldn't immediately think she just had a fucked up life unless I knew the meaning behind all of those tattoos. It's changed over the last 20, 30 years a lot. Like tattoos are way more popular. So like all kinds of people have them, but I bet years ago, people would think people with tattoos, like, oh, they've gone through something hard. And you know, it's even funny too. Like there was a time, I don't know when it changed where if you could have hair, but you chose to shave it, that said something.

[00:36:42] [SPEAKER_00] Because not that long before that, they would just think you're going through it. Through chemotherapy.

[00:36:46] [SPEAKER_01] Did you have hair if you wanted to?

[00:36:48] [SPEAKER_00] Not great hair. But I started shaving my head over 20 years ago.

[00:36:51] [SPEAKER_01] I always pictured you as the guy from Hot Ones.

[00:36:54] [SPEAKER_00] I like this feeling hot, but what is Hot Ones?

[00:36:59] [SPEAKER_01] I guess it's kind of a podcast or a talk show where they like eat really spicy chicken wings and interview people.

[00:37:05] [SPEAKER_00] Do I look anything like them?

[00:37:06] [SPEAKER_01] I mean, you're both bald, but.

[00:37:07] [SPEAKER_00] I don't look like Kojak either. I mean, when's your 30th birthday? March. The ones that end in zero seem to be hard. 30 and 40 and like.

[00:37:15] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, I have a feeling when I get to my 30th birthday, I'm really going to be like, fuck, I need to get my shit together.

[00:37:20] [SPEAKER_00] I still feel that way. What does that mean? Shit together.

[00:37:23] [SPEAKER_01] I don't even know.

[00:37:24] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. And it's never going to be what you think it means.

[00:37:27] [SPEAKER_01] No, it's not.

[00:37:28] [SPEAKER_00] If you've been struggling all your life, a reasonable assumption that that's going to be the same. A more optimistic human being would say like, no, there's hope that me is going to live a really amazing life. But you already told me that's pretty unlikely. Exactly.

[00:37:41] [SPEAKER_01] No, I feel pretty confident it's going to be like pretty hard the whole time. But I'm kind of just like living for those moments in between where it's like, not so bad. What else are you going to do? I mean, I can either kill myself or keep doing what I'm doing. And I guess it's not that bad right now.

[00:37:59] [SPEAKER_00] That is absolutely 100% the truth. You either kill yourself or you live. Maybe there's some space between. I'm not aware of. I've used that term before, but you're still alive. Pink and purple pill. I give it to Mia. She takes it and actually swallows it. And she can use rum to chase. I don't care. Typically fade out, go to sleep. No pain. Don't wake up. Nobody knows it's a suicide. But we, for you, I think need to make an exception. We want you to have, you want some pain.

[00:38:28] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:38:29] [SPEAKER_00] Because again, tell me why.

[00:38:31] [SPEAKER_01] I, for a long time, had a problem with self-harm. If you get into the right mindset, I wouldn't say it feels good, but it's a feeling. And that's worth something.

[00:38:41] [SPEAKER_00] Do you want people to know it's a suicide? Would you rather them not know?

[00:38:43] [SPEAKER_01] I would rather them not know.

[00:38:45] [SPEAKER_00] I had one question I forgot to ask about the hospital stay. It kept you longer than you wanted to be there. Mostly a very bad experience. What did they do when you got out? The same system that probably charged you a lot of money to stay there to help you. And then you were still suicidal unless you lied.

[00:39:00] [SPEAKER_02] I lied.

[00:39:01] [SPEAKER_00] Right. This is what happens. And then you get out. And is there any plan? Is there any, I guess, what would be classified as postvention?

[00:39:09] [SPEAKER_01] I don't remember having to do anything after I left. I just went home.

[00:39:13] [SPEAKER_00] They were like, goodbye.

[00:39:14] [SPEAKER_01] Get out of here.

[00:39:15] [SPEAKER_00] Because you told us you're not suicidal.

[00:39:17] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:39:17] [SPEAKER_00] But they know that people are lying to get out.

[00:39:20] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. It's not like they fixed me in a week.

[00:39:22] [SPEAKER_00] Right. And that would be an unfair promise anyway. That's an unfair expectation. You're not going to get fixed in a week. You could if you found God, maybe.

[00:39:29] [SPEAKER_02] Maybe.

[00:39:30] [SPEAKER_00] I mean, this usually doesn't happen in a week. But, right. So they just said, get home safely.

[00:39:36] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah.

[00:39:37] [SPEAKER_00] And as you were leaving, there was another Mia walking, another kind of person just like Mia walking right through the same door.

[00:39:43] [SPEAKER_02] Yes. Yeah.

[00:39:44] [SPEAKER_00] And right now here on Sunday, even though they're weird on the weekends, some of these places, there's people all over the country entering a hospital, hoping it helps a little bit because life is really hard. And I would say for the majority, though I hope I'm wrong, it won't help. No. It will help if you have a lot of money and go to a special hospital. There are certain hospitals, actually, somebody was just talking about one of them in Massachusetts that's part of their public health system. That's fantastic. So there are exceptions.

[00:40:13] [SPEAKER_00] I'm sure there are a good number of exceptions.

[00:40:15] [SPEAKER_01] Like outpatient?

[00:40:16] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. But like intense outpatient. Like sometimes I hear like somewhat consistently that that helped.

[00:40:22] [SPEAKER_01] I did like an outpatient rehab when I was in high school. I would say it did not help at all.

[00:40:30] [SPEAKER_00] Are you a drinker?

[00:40:30] [SPEAKER_01] On and off. I've done a total of three years sober, but it's been split up.

[00:40:37] [SPEAKER_00] And a vapor.

[00:40:38] [SPEAKER_01] And a vapor. Yes.

[00:40:40] [SPEAKER_00] What else do you do to cope when we get through the day when things are tough? Whether they're like considered healthy or not.

[00:40:45] [SPEAKER_01] It's crazy. Okay. One time I got on the Suicide Hotline website to look for like any kind of help that was like just not like talking to someone. Right. And there was just like a list of things that you can do. And it was like take a bath, do arts and crafts, go for a walk. And I was like are you fucking kidding me?

[00:41:03] [SPEAKER_02] Right.

[00:41:04] [SPEAKER_01] That's the best you've got to offer me. You're the experts. But you know what? They were right about the walks.

[00:41:10] [SPEAKER_02] Uh-huh.

[00:41:10] [SPEAKER_01] Taking a walk is like the only thing. Sometimes I'll take a beer with me too. But it's like the only thing that will kind of like calm my mind.

[00:41:20] [SPEAKER_00] Move. You got to move. So they weren't entirely wrong. It wasn't all bullshit. But what were the other ones that were less effective?

[00:41:26] [SPEAKER_01] It was like make a self-care package and like stuff like that.

[00:41:30] [SPEAKER_00] I mean what are they going to say, right? Really? What can they possibly offer? Yeah. Fucking change your DNA. Sorry, I don't know how to do that.

[00:41:37] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah.

[00:41:38] [SPEAKER_00] I have a lot to say about those things. But I assume most people are well-intentioned. I also know some of them are out for just to make a lot of money, which I don't personally have an issue with people making a lot of money. But I know AFSP, the biggest organization, and I see their posts. And I'm like, where does the money go? What are you actually doing with the money? I mean, I know the CEO makes like $600,000 a year. I mean, whatever. They're running a big organization. You get paid. It's part of it. It seems like a lot of money. So I'm seeing these things.

[00:42:06] [SPEAKER_00] And they all sound so clever because they have a department they pay well to make clever sounding things. The hard hat initiative or the like walk for whatever. And that program might do good shit. I don't know. But like, I think I think it goes back to if you don't let people talk openly and honestly about it at the end of the day, all of these things are going to be limiting.

[00:42:26] [SPEAKER_02] Yes.

[00:42:27] [SPEAKER_00] And those things fine better than nothing. But the biggest thing is letting people talk about it. And we're not doing it.

[00:42:33] [SPEAKER_01] But it's also irritating because I can understand, like, if I had never had a suicidal thought in my life and someone tried to be open and honest with me, I would be like, oh, my God.

[00:42:45] [SPEAKER_00] You don't know that. I'm just trying to think of something that I've gone through that you've never gone through and it might not freak you out. You just might be like curious.

[00:42:52] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah.

[00:42:53] [SPEAKER_00] I mean, you might not be. Suicide's a big one for sure. So people tend to react strongly or like, whoa, if you don't let people talk openly and entirely. And I see where it can be a bit of a slippery slope. But if you don't, if we can't get to there, then all this stuff is OK. Some of it's fine, but it's just not going to get better. And people are going to be suffering. While it not getting better, it's they're in pain.

[00:43:16] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:43:17] [SPEAKER_00] That's why I'm writing a manifesto, Mia.

[00:43:18] [SPEAKER_01] You're writing a manifesto?

[00:43:20] [SPEAKER_00] Well, Claude AI is helping me. I just don't understand how he got here. And I'm trying to figure out a little like, like, actually go and ask AI carefully with careful prompts. Otherwise, of course, flash 988, 988, 988. Have you ever called them?

[00:43:33] [SPEAKER_02] No.

[00:43:34] [SPEAKER_00] I only did it as a sort of social experiment. How'd it go? I thought bad about it. Well, I felt bad because I'm taking up someone else's time, right? I just wanted to see if they would tell me what would happen if I answered the imminent risk questions. The girl was like, well, are you feeling suicidal? Like, that's not actually my question. My question is what? I don't know why we're not being transparent about what happens if I say yes to all those questions. I mean, I have an idea of what happens, but can you say it to me somehow in a kind of clever way?

[00:44:02] [SPEAKER_00] Well, before I answer that, have you been having suicidal thoughts? So then I think I got to the point where I just to keep her on the phone, I answered like yes to the first two. Just couldn't. I don't think she knew the answer. And I think it also just depends on where you live and how it works and how it connects with the local authorities or the local police or the local hospital system. And they didn't tell me. I should have asked to speak with her supervisor. She's on the job. It feels weird. I'm sure some of them are good at what they do. Some of them are not. But they're all the hands are tied, right?

[00:44:31] [SPEAKER_00] If you say yes, yes, yes, yes, you're getting flagged.

[00:44:35] [SPEAKER_01] And what I learned in my one experience of actually asking for help is that next time I'm not going to do that.

[00:44:42] [SPEAKER_00] What happened?

[00:44:43] [SPEAKER_01] I'm just going to figure it out myself or I'm going to just go and do it. Like going to the hospital.

[00:44:48] [SPEAKER_00] You mean that was the one time you asked for help?

[00:44:51] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:44:52] [SPEAKER_00] Are you being like help, help, right? Like, yeah. And you got fucked. That is about the most rational, logical way to respond to something like that. To not do it again. You could argue if you have that experience and then you go back, I'm concerned for your mental health even more.

[00:45:06] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah.

[00:45:07] [SPEAKER_00] Like that's, that's, that's a bizarre decision.

[00:45:11] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah.

[00:45:11] [SPEAKER_00] Or just a desperate one. I'm not judging it. It's just like, of course you're not going to go back. And there's a ripple effect. Because if your best friend says something, you're going to be like, I don't know if you should go to that hospital, man. Whereas if they were run better, you might say, maybe you should go to that hospital. I'll drive you. But you're not going to tell her that.

[00:45:27] [SPEAKER_01] No. My best friend actually, a couple days ago was telling me that she was feeling suicidal, not like I'm going to do it, but like just like having a lot of thoughts. And I was just like, I mean, I don't know what to tell you. I've been there. Like, I feel you. Like, I love you, but there's nothing. I don't know what, I don't know what to do.

[00:45:43] [SPEAKER_00] Take a walk.

[00:45:44] [SPEAKER_01] Take a walk.

[00:45:45] [SPEAKER_00] Bring a beer if you want.

[00:45:46] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:45:47] [SPEAKER_00] I mean, really, that's where we're at. There are other hospitals in Nashville, but you just don't know anything about them. So your experience with that one, it's a fair assumption that the others are similar. They might be worse. They might be better. Who knows? But like, that's a big risk to take. That's a gamble. You know, my audience is my audience. And so a lot of them have been there. But like, if you haven't been locked up in a place like that, you don't understand.

[00:46:12] [SPEAKER_01] Those healthcare professionals do not give a fuck about you.

[00:46:16] [SPEAKER_00] You know, some of them started off giving a fuck.

[00:46:21] [SPEAKER_02] Yes.

[00:46:21] [SPEAKER_00] I mean, there's just so many things about it that are so like weird to me that like somebody's job was it is was like, we're going to build this thing. People have that was their job. We're going to build a facility where people who are in the state come. Let's start making some decisions. Do they have their own room or do they share a room? Like, how does it all work? I would love to see like the original blueprint of that or the original outline or whatever you call that. Did it start off with just these terrible decisions?

[00:46:51] [SPEAKER_00] Or did it just develop over time into these places that are by and large now causing more bad than good?

[00:47:00] [SPEAKER_01] What is really crazy? When I was in the hospital, I was allergic to a lot of foods. And instead of finding something for me to eat, they were just like, I don't know. Like, I remember for breakfast one day they had like biscuits, like biscuits and jelly. They were like, just eat the jelly. It's like, cool.

[00:47:15] [SPEAKER_00] But I also know, and this is why when we say like there's a whole systemic problem. Okay. And I deal with this. I was a public school teacher. So what happens there too? It probably happens in any large system where it's like, all right, that person who said that, they don't have an answer for you because their boss doesn't have an answer for them. And they have to show up and earn their money. And it's like, then you have a systemic fucking shit show. And once in a while you get lucky, whether it's someone on the staff or a patient, like the guy that you met.

[00:47:45] [SPEAKER_01] The only person who helped me while I was there was not even employed by the hospital.

[00:47:50] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. If you're out there, by the way, and you've had an amazing experience at a hospital, please come and talk to me. Like, I want to talk to you too. I know you're out there. I'm not going to say, oh, well, that's the exception to the bullshit. Like, I want it. And I do. I sometimes, like when people say to me, like, I had a good stay at the hospital or I have a great therapist. Like, I don't know if I'm happy to hear that because I'm not a particularly happy guy. But like, I'm like, you know, that meant cool. I'm not using it as an opportunity to point out, like, most of them suck. I mean, I just bring it up because I think it's the truth.

[00:48:18] [SPEAKER_00] And I think a lot of us are getting fed bullshit. And I think it matters because it's damaging.

[00:48:23] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah.

[00:48:24] [SPEAKER_00] Right? So we keep hearing call 988 or go to this hospital or do this or do that. And it's damaging. But you never learn that it's damaging. And you just keep giving that, doling out those bits of kernels of wisdom. Like, you're missing feelings. And a guy like me sounds like it's some sort of outlier or almost conspiracy theorist. It's like, I'm not. I'm telling you I'm not. There's a place for 988. It's just I'm telling you there's a lot of problems with it too. Like, let's address them.

[00:48:51] [SPEAKER_01] I have no idea what the solution is.

[00:48:54] [SPEAKER_00] Physician-assisted suicide done in a certain way might be part of the solution.

[00:48:57] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:48:57] [SPEAKER_00] But I know it has to be a physician. Death with dignity on a large scale. But there would be people that hear that and say, like, that would be the worst idea ever.

[00:49:06] [SPEAKER_01] Well, I think it's like a choice that you can make on your own. You can do it by yourself. Certainly. Give people the opportunity to do it in a way that's comfortable for them. No. Because they're going to do it anyway.

[00:49:17] [SPEAKER_00] Some people would push back on that and say, they're going to do it. No, they won't. It's a phase. We got to get them through that. Then they might not. Where the truth lies, I don't know. No. It's funny. It's actually in my meandering mind, I never asked you what you would do with the pill.

[00:49:31] [SPEAKER_01] Obviously, I've thought about this because I listen to the podcast a lot. I would put it in a little ornate wooden box and I would keep it somewhere. I would keep it somewhere that's hard to get to so that I really have to spend an extra 30 seconds thinking about it.

[00:49:44] [SPEAKER_00] Like in the attic or something?

[00:49:46] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:49:46] [SPEAKER_00] Right. So in the time it takes, just like you would lock up your gun. In the time it takes to like unlock it and load it, maybe change your mind. I have two more questions. I think that's it. They both begin with M. Myths and or misconceptions that you want to call bullshit on.

[00:50:01] [SPEAKER_01] Just like the thought that like everyone can be saved because I don't know, like with me, like I have a chronic disorder. It's never going to go away. And I feel like once you open that door in your mind, like suicide is an option, that option is always there. For some people, it might not ever get better. It just might not.

[00:50:19] [SPEAKER_00] People hate hearing that. Like I don't mean the person who's hearing it where their life might not get better, that they might be hearing. In general, our culture seems to have such a hard time. Might not get better.

[00:50:29] [SPEAKER_01] And it's like if someone is in that situation where it's like it's not looking good, it's not looking like it will just get better one day. I don't think it's fair to like keep on telling them it's going to get better. It's going to get better.

[00:50:43] [SPEAKER_00] Right. So that's the myth.

[00:50:45] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:50:46] [SPEAKER_00] It doesn't always get better. And the idea that we can save everybody is bullshit.

[00:50:51] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah.

[00:50:51] [SPEAKER_00] So the zero prevention initiatives are laughable. But somebody could say because people mix it up like, oh, so you're OK with people killing themselves? I'm like, those are two completely different things. I mean, kind of I'm OK with people killing themselves because I believe in agency.

[00:51:05] [SPEAKER_01] And I also think it's just not any of my business.

[00:51:08] [SPEAKER_00] Couldn't somebody say like as a fellow human being, Mia, I'm on board with you entirely too. You can feel that way and also care about people. It's not like you're saying, yeah, OK, things could get better. They may not get better. I hope they don't get better. Like you're not saying that. You're just in an actual what appears to me to be a realistic, have a realistic perspective on how things actually are.

[00:51:30] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah.

[00:51:30] [SPEAKER_00] But that's not the narrative I think people want to hear or even pay for. It's just like bizarro land to me. It's almost like what you do with little kids. Sometimes you trick a little kid into doing something. You got to do it. A little, little kid.

[00:51:44] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah.

[00:51:45] [SPEAKER_00] You know what I mean? I'm trying to think of an example. I don't have kids, so nothing's coming to mind. But you play a little game with them to get them to eat their food or to come inside or to whatever. That's kind of how I think we treat the entire, for lack of a better word, industry or community here. It's like, let's just trick them a little bit. You know?

[00:52:00] [SPEAKER_01] I don't think hardly anybody would truly go there when talking about suicide. Not only do I think it's your very personal choice, but I think it's also like a lot of it feels deeply private.

[00:52:14] [SPEAKER_00] Is that weird that this is a completely not private thing? This is the opposite of that, what we're doing.

[00:52:18] [SPEAKER_01] I mean, it is weird.

[00:52:20] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah.

[00:52:21] [SPEAKER_01] It's really weird. How many people listen to this podcast?

[00:52:25] [SPEAKER_00] Not fucking enough. If I was a podcast that was the way I don't make money doing this. So if I made money based on listenership, which is like an ads-based or sponsored-based thing, then I would really care. I don't have a really hard time getting guests. So there's that part. But listeners, yeah, like, where are you? Maybe there's just so many options to listen to so many things. People are overwhelmed. I don't know. Find them for me, please.

[00:52:51] [SPEAKER_01] I mean, I've told people to listen to this podcast, so I'm trying.

[00:52:55] [SPEAKER_00] You're the person who wants to hear this and get something from it. Like, I can just think about almost everybody in my life, they're like, why the fuck would I listen to that? Yeah, you know, give me Joe Rogan. Give me Huberman. Give me True Crime, right? Yeah. All day long. Not this. I'm like, yeah, no, but so it's, I enjoyed it. I enjoy it. I think it's a weird thing to have found and it's almost like a unique niche, but it's good work. You know what I mean? It's important work, I think.

[00:53:24] [SPEAKER_00] That helps. It's not just like filling my days. It's like helping people out.

[00:53:28] [SPEAKER_01] I think it is really helpful for people. I mean, for me, like, I don't want to talk about it to people, but I do need to feel like I'm like, like I am in some way. And so listening to other people talk about it kind of feels like a good enough substitute to kind of keep me afloat, you know?

[00:53:46] [SPEAKER_00] Oh, but what I was surprised though, there are, there are not many, but there are some groups online that meet where you can say, I am going to kill myself and it'd be okay.

[00:53:57] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah.

[00:53:58] [SPEAKER_00] But few and far between.

[00:54:00] [SPEAKER_02] At least there's that.

[00:54:02] [SPEAKER_00] At least there's, at least there's something, but it, but they're hard to find. And that's also telling, like how easy is it to find out in a state?

[00:54:09] [SPEAKER_01] Very easy.

[00:54:10] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. I mean, it's incredible.

[00:54:11] [SPEAKER_01] I, I find it when I'm not even looking for it. Yeah.

[00:54:14] [SPEAKER_00] Right. I mean, but these organizations, which are completely underfunded or non-funded and under, they don't have the means and the resources to be able to get it out there. And then even then there are these limits that are put on people. I'm willing to take the risk because you gotta have, if you're going to have, you have to have an open conversation or not. Yeah. And if you're going to have all these little caveats, are you really having an open conversation? So have the fucking conversation. Let people know it's an open conversation. And like, just like with you saying with their lives, you listen to it or not.

[00:54:43] [SPEAKER_00] There's literally a million podcasts.

[00:54:46] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah.

[00:54:46] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. Like if you hate TV and hate reading and you only want to like hear shit, you, I think you have probably 5 million options. There's something out there for you. But if it has to do with suicide, good luck. A little bit on lost survivors more than attempt survivors. A little bit more attention.

[00:55:04] [SPEAKER_01] That's what I found too.

[00:55:06] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. Or you just get that, I'm Dr. Nancy so-and-so and today we're going to discuss, you know, signs or today we're going to talk about, and it's like, okay, that's good for some people. It's just a different podcast. Memoir title. We've talked about some stuff. Some interesting things came up. We've got some golden ones in there. I didn't, I didn't, I didn't immediately write any down, but there was some, there was some good, there was some good shit in there.

[00:55:29] [SPEAKER_01] I don't remember any either.

[00:55:31] [SPEAKER_00] Well, did you think about it before our conversation? You had ample time.

[00:55:34] [SPEAKER_01] Uh, no, I thought you were the memoir guy.

[00:55:36] [SPEAKER_00] What did I say when I said, why, why, why don't I read this book? And you're like, because it's too hard. It's too hard is actually a pretty good memoir title. What are your tattoos?

[00:55:46] [SPEAKER_01] Uh, I have a lot. I did this one the other day. I'll show you. It's a human sacrifice.

[00:55:52] [SPEAKER_02] Wow.

[00:55:53] [SPEAKER_01] It's from like this, uh, book of ancient Mexican symbolism that I have.

[00:55:59] [SPEAKER_00] Oh, wow.

[00:55:59] [SPEAKER_01] It's like an illustration in there.

[00:56:01] [SPEAKER_00] Is that a hobby of yours?

[00:56:02] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:56:04] [SPEAKER_00] Underworld, dark world stuff.

[00:56:05] [SPEAKER_01] Just like dark shit in general. Right. I watch a lot of horror movies. Read scary books occasionally. I don't read very much, but.

[00:56:13] [SPEAKER_00] Are there a good podcast for that?

[00:56:14] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. Yeah, there are. And another reason why I found this podcast actually is because I used to listen to a lot of true crime because like I said, sometimes I just want to hear something really awful. And I feel like with true crime podcasts, like it's kind of disrespectful in a way, like the way that they talk about the victims. And I wanted to hear something from the mouth of someone who went through it. I don't know.

[00:56:38] [SPEAKER_01] I've read about the theory of the discomfort zone, which is like people who have experienced a lot of, you know, hardship in their life become comfortable in those kinds of situations.

[00:56:50] [SPEAKER_00] And so it almost creates comfort.

[00:56:54] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:56:55] [SPEAKER_00] Or familiarity. It's too hard, but it's pretty good. It's a process, you know, this memoir title writing. Sometimes I nail it out of the gate, but you can send it to me. I can read it out loud. You got some time. What else would you like to share, Mia?

[00:57:10] [SPEAKER_01] I have these like bullet points that I wrote to explain to my friends, like what it feels like to have like a, like a psychotic or a manic episode. I might send that to you.

[00:57:22] [SPEAKER_00] You want to read it? You want to just send it?

[00:57:24] [SPEAKER_01] Maybe I'll record myself reading it.

[00:57:26] [SPEAKER_00] That'd be interesting. What's rest of you like in Tennessee?

[00:57:29] [SPEAKER_01] I'm going to a housewarming party in like actually 13 minutes.

[00:57:35] [SPEAKER_00] Oh shit. Go.

[00:57:36] [SPEAKER_01] I gotta, I gotta stop and get some ice, but yeah. Yeah.

[00:57:40] [SPEAKER_00] All right. Housewarming party solo or you're bringing the friend?

[00:57:42] [SPEAKER_01] I'm going by myself. All girls.

[00:57:44] [SPEAKER_00] All girls. Always better. Yeah. Better species. No question about it. Thanks for talking.

[00:57:50] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. Thanks for talking.

[00:57:52] [SPEAKER_00] Enjoy your party. Thanks, Mia. Have a good day.

[00:57:55] [SPEAKER_01] You too.

[00:57:56] [SPEAKER_00] Bye.

[00:57:56] [SPEAKER_01] Bye.

[00:57:59] [SPEAKER_00] As always, thanks so much for listening and all of your support. Special thanks to Mia in Tennessee. Thanks, Mia. If you are a suicide attempt survivor or ideator and you'd like to talk, please reach out. Hello at suicidenoted.com. I would love to speak with you. If you've got the time, energy, interest in helping us finish our transcription project, please reach out as well. I'll get you to work. You might even like it. Thanks. And that is all for this week's episode. Stay strong. Do the best you can. I'll talk to you soon.