Matt and Jillian (Kansas Tour) 📒

[00:00:00] I came very close and I got a care package from my family and I have it laminated now. I had a sticky note in it from my daughter who just said my life is better with my dad. So I haven't shared that story yet. I felt like this is a great place to do that. I plan on doing that at our wedding so I can let everyone know that my daughter saved my life.

[00:00:43] Hey there my name is Sean and this is Suicide Noted. On this podcast I talk with suicide attempt survivors and ideators so that we can hear their stories. Every year around the world millions of people trying to take their own lives we almost never talk about it. We certainly don't talk about it enough. And when we do talk about it, when we talk with people in pain, we're not very good at it.

[00:01:04] So one of my goals with this podcast is to have more conversations, hopefully better conversations with survivors and ideators in large part to help more people in more places. Hopefully feel a little less shitty and a little less alone. And I have to tell you there's a lot of people that have reached out to me and shared that sentiment with me and that is what keeps this going. So thank you very much for sharing your thoughts with me and I'm glad it's helping even in some small way.

[00:01:28] Today's episode takes place in Kansas, Shawnee, Kansas to be exact at the Seven Stories Bookstore. We're very, very gracious to host us. It was smack dab in the middle of the tour, smack dab in the middle of the country. And it's a little unique in that I had a past guest and a new guest. And as part of the conversation, like all our stops on the tour, was the audience.

[00:01:53] Before I introduce them, I have to tell you, we're talking about suicide like we always do. Please take that into account before you listen or as you listen. But I do hope you listen because there is so much to learn. Today I am talking with Jillian and Matt. Both of them live in Kansas and they are both near suicide attempt survivors.

[00:02:20] You're like one of the only podcasts that I've come across that is just really based on talking to suicide ideators or attempt survivors. Yeah. I love this intro. And I'm here. Yeah. This is great. Go on. Please. Go more. I don't know what else though. That's it. Okay. Yeah. Jillian. Yes. Matt. Matt. Talking with me, Sean. I'm not going to spend a lot of time on me or the podcast because you're not here for that.

[00:02:48] But just a one minute overview. I started this podcast over five years ago. It's called Suicide Noted. And the goal was to have conversations with people who have attempted to take their lives, sometimes multiple times, are thinking about it, have thought about it, ideate near attempt survivors. And the main reason was because people ask why. And I have never really gotten the answer right, the elevator speech or the story, but I lost my best friend to suicide many years ago.

[00:03:16] And I have been ideating on and off. Like I suppose a lot of people ideate for the better part of two decades until this moment here or these moments in my life now. Several years ago, I went to a hospital after my therapist made it pretty clear I should go to a hospital. And it was the UNC Psych Center. I'm living in Chapel Hill, which is one of the better hospitals for that kind of thing in the state, or so I was told.

[00:03:42] And I'm not here to bash on anything or, you know, I have some rather strong opinions about this stuff. But it was not a very good experience. If I had to pinpoint a moment, which later led to me saying, I think I'd like to start something, maybe like a podcast at the time I wasn't sure, where I can do this was the moment leaving the hospital. Because I was getting in my car, I'm like, so I'm going to go home. And nothing's really changed. Tweak here, tweak there. This is one of the better hospitals. I never want to come back here.

[00:04:11] And that scared the shit out of me. And I think it's the only time in my life I've ever done the thing. You know what they say, if there's a problem, you be the thing that you want in the world. Like, I've never lived that way, like at all. But I was like, maybe I'll give it a shot. And so I did. And I've been very blessed to have a lot of conversations with people in a lot of different places. I'm kind of astounded it's still going, but I think it will continue going. I crossed paths with Jillian a few months ago. Summer sometimes. Summer-ish. You found the podcast. Mm-hmm. Reached out. We talked.

[00:04:41] Her episode has actually just came out. It just came out Monday. I just started listening to it. My voice is very cringy on recording. Right. Yeah. And Matt, I just met today. Yes. Matt, Sarah, is my good friend from, I met through La Crosse. And this is her husband, Matt. And yeah, him and I have been very open about our struggles. And we both are very passionate about talking to people about suicide, educating them, being there for them.

[00:05:10] And so, yeah, I told him about this and asked him if he'd be comfortable coming and joining. And he said good. He's very happy about it. Yeah. I love this. Mm-hmm. Thank you. Just a few. I don't know if this is housekeeping, just some information that might be helpful. We're recording video and audio. We're talking about suicide, and we do it in a way that I hope is responsible and ethical, but we don't hold back. So if you're uncomfortable, you get a little freaked out, you know you, take care of yourself, whatever that means.

[00:05:37] But I made a decision more than five years ago that I would not hold back because I think it's important, not only for the people who want to talk about it, but for people, which is kind of cool with a podcast. Because people, as long as they have Wi-Fi and a phone, which isn't everyone, but it's more and more people that can actually just be like play. And then now Jillian's voice is in some Scottish guys here in Glasgow. No, I'm serious. It's amazing. Or someone, you know, wherever. Maybe even Kansas City, Kansas, God. Yeah. Okay.

[00:06:04] I had to explain to them Kansas City, Kansas and Kansas City, Missouri. Different. Here we are. We're going to talk after the conversation. By all means, ask questions if you want to ask questions. Share what you want to share. This is my ninth, I think my ninth event. Hey. So a huge shout out to Jillian and to everyone who works here at the bookstore.

[00:06:29] Who supports the podcast and was so kind to give your space to me and us and all of us. So thank you for doing that. Where do we start? You have to ask questions. I have to ask questions. All right. So here's what we'll do. I'm going to ask you guys a couple of questions and then I'm going to like spend some time with you, spend some time with you, and then a couple more popcorn and then we'll see how that works. Okay. All right. Are you a suicide attempt survivor, Jillian? I'm an ideator. I've struggled with ideation.

[00:06:56] There's a lot of different levels to suicidality. I have never personally had a plan, but what I've struggled with is depression on and off and just the overall feeling of wanting pain just to go away.

[00:07:14] No longer wanting to live in a certain feeling and feeling like it's so overwhelming that you don't know any other way out or around it. And my dad had two attempts before he took his life and that took up my entire 20s. And so I really got into suicide prevention and support and speaking out about it because of him.

[00:07:41] But that was also a shield for me to hide behind and not talk about myself personally or my struggles. I want to be so forthcoming, but I definitely hid behind my personality. I didn't want to seem like this outgoing, funny, witty person also battled demons. And then I realized that's the problem.

[00:08:05] Nobody wants to share their demons or look like they have struggles because then who's going to want to go to that person? In hindsight, once I started being honest and talking to people, I feel like I've really been able to help people through their darkest times. And it was all through me being vulnerable and going against the very thing that people want you to uphold, which is image. It's such a hard battle.

[00:08:34] And I was talking about this earlier, how you want to break the stigma and you want to fight against the image. But that's what keeps people so quiet. They want you to appear put together or this business put together or this club or this anything. And once you start talking about having struggles, that breaks down that fourth wall a little bit.

[00:08:58] And I don't know, the honesty and the vulnerability, I feel like, has ended up helping me help others more than when I tried to put on the tough front. Yep. Hmm. We're going to dig in a little bit in a sec, all right? Great. Cool. We just met. We did. So thank you for trusting me. Absolutely. I appreciate that. I'm sure Jillian helped with that because I was a complete stranger. You were like, no, no, no, no. Suicide attempt survivor?

[00:09:27] No, but I have had plans. I've had a number of friends commit suicide. I'm a military. I've been for 24 years. Green Beret for 15. You know, global war on terrorism for decades now. And I've kind of been running past everything and going to the next thing. And then now I'm coming to the end of my career and I'm transitioning out. I suddenly realized I had all this trauma that I never processed. And then once we started digging, I realized I had lots of trauma from my childhood that was never processed either.

[00:09:56] And I did my final, my last deployment just last year. And it was a really tough trip. I got to a very, very dark place. I had actually made plans. I was going to, you know, get a body bag and go to the embassy and package myself up so that it wasn't a burden on my team. And I came very close and I got a care package from my family.

[00:10:24] And I have it laminated now. I had a sticky note in it from my daughter who just said, my life is better with my dad. I put a picture of us on our daddy-daughter dance on the back. So I've been, I haven't shared that story yet. I felt like this is a great place to do that. But I plan on doing that at her wedding. So I can let everyone know that my daughter saved my life. I came out and I was fortunate enough to get a job with a nonprofit that's suicide prevention for vets and first responders.

[00:10:53] And it's been incredible for me in my own journey to work through these things. And I had a lot of guilt and shame, as a lot of people do about it. But I soon came to realize that it really was a gift working through that and having, being fortunate enough to have the friends and family that I do and that support. I'm allowed to experience true empathy with people when they're experiencing these things. And I really, I know because I've been in that same place.

[00:11:20] So it's been an incredible blessing that I've positioned that there and that I've found these realizations. You wouldn't know this unless you listen to the podcast. Other than being a podcaster, I have found myself enjoying this role after talking with people on the podcast. It usually happens an hour or so in. And this idea comes. You didn't take me up on this offer that I like to help people with their memoir titles. It's just a bit of a gift. Because I already had one.

[00:11:51] No, no, no. We'll talk about this at another point. It's a half joke, but it's kind of like these things flash. And my daughter saved my life. Whether that's ever a book or the name of a speech or something like that is like, I'd read that shit real quick. Damn. Never even thought it was a great thing. No, I mean, well, that's why I say it's a gift that you didn't want to take me on because you already had a title. I did. I don't feel like I liked yours either. Wow.

[00:12:20] That's fire. I think she's playing to the crowd because I don't think I offered you one. I don't know if I heard it. Now's the time or not? Oh, my memoir title, yeah, is Road to Wildflowers. I love it. And you didn't like that. I said I have a subtitle. It's pretty good. I didn't like – we're going to get back on track. Okay. I didn't like the fact – I didn't not like – I questioned why you didn't have a subtitle. Mm-hmm. And you're still sticking with no subtitle. Well, I just don't have one is my reason. Which means you need – okay.

[00:12:50] I'm not even asking for money for this service. I just want to offer it to people. But, okay, I'm going to say something now. Sure. I just find it interesting that up on this platform to be up here with two men because you don't find many men that are willing to speak as open and honestly about this.

[00:13:12] I find that a lot of people my age were married to men who were raised not showing their emotions or we have fathers that didn't show their emotions and that sort of thing. And we're trying to not only break those generational cycles but now raise boys to show those emotions. And so there's a lot on the women, I feel like.

[00:13:37] And I just give a lot of credit to the men that are willing to be vulnerable and talk about that because that's so important. And I want that for my boys as well. And I just, like, applaud you so much. I mean, Sarah and I have been able to really, since we became friends, openly talk about suicide and struggles. And it's just so important to have that conversation with friends and not to be ashamed of it.

[00:14:01] And, you know, I know whenever we talked originally, and I really appreciate this about Sean, his kind of pushback on psychiatric hospitals and crisis lines and stuff. I find that people don't want to talk against those things because those things can save people. For sure. So why would you want to speak? But there are downsides about it that should also be discussed.

[00:14:26] And then we're like, but what is it that is ultimately that saves people? And really it's empathy and compassion. Have an open mind. Like, be true empathy. Not, oh, you know, mental health matters. I'm here for you. No, in the nitty gritty, empathy and compassion for what people endure is ultimately what is the best suicide prevention there is. Yeah, those things definitely serve a purpose.

[00:14:56] Right. But I think it's leaving out a lot of people and they don't have a microphone to say, I'm in the space between, for example. Like, I don't have a plan. I may not be. But if I talk about it, it's really hard to find anybody, professionals, friends, anybody, for understandable reasons sometimes to say, I'll sit with you. I'll talk with you. And then I always ask this question. I'm sure I asked it to you. Do you have anyone in your life, anybody in your sphere that you can talk to?

[00:15:23] And during or after that conversation, you at a minimum don't feel worse and can talk about anything. Using the word suicide, ideation, plan, all these words, these words that a lot of people are like, I don't remember what you said. I don't remember what you said. I think you said one or two. Oh, probably everybody in here. I am, except for my new friends. I really openly talk. Everybody in here. You could have a conversation with me.

[00:15:49] I texted Kirby earlier this week and I said, I'm having a really hard mental health day. And I can be vulnerable. She knows what place I'm in. And it's, what support do you need? Do you think it's the same if you said, and this may not apply to you. Okay. Certainly applies to a lot of people. I am struggling and I'm thinking of taking my life. Now, yes, I feel like I could do that.

[00:16:16] Before, when I was in that place, which is about two and a half years ago. And again, I didn't have a plan. I would say things, I would say I'm really depressed. I'm going through a really hard time. I had lost a lot of weight. There was just so many things. And at that point, it's just, I should have known better. You know, I'm so educated in it. And then when you are in that fog, you cannot see out of it.

[00:16:42] But once I worked, did a lot of work, I'm still doing a lot of work. My therapist has me really working on just being honest with my friend and my people when you're having a hard time. So yes, I feel like I'm at a place now that if I get there again, I can be vocal and honest about it. But I've worked really hard to get that way. And I also want to live up to what I preach. I want people to feel comfortable doing that. Did you lose any friends? No.

[00:17:11] You got good friends. I do. And they showed up? Yes. What about you? Do you have, I know you're doing some work in this space. Yeah. I actually want to touch on something that Jillian said. And it's been one of the, my main drivers of kind of my new mission. And that is really trying to redefine masculinity. You know, I've seen the military grow quite a bit in terms of addressing mental health and talking openly about this. And special operations definitely, like it's, it's definitely, you know, become part of

[00:17:41] it. And it only makes sense. Like if you're emotionally intelligent, you're a better warrior, you know? So it's hiding and keeping that stuff inside the way it's always been the way I grew up. Uh, and when I started my career in the military, um, and now I, I have a stage that I can speak on and, you know, you have the career and the green beret thing. So people tend to listen more and it's, it's been really impactful to say, Hey, no, I, I, I get depressed. I had suicidal thoughts.

[00:18:08] I've been in that terrible place, but being open is the only solution there. You know, you, you were not alone. And that's what I've seen with a lot of guys. They think they're the only one. It's just me. Um, and realizing that we all have these pains and outside of military too, it's the same, you know, it's addressed through, through all the different career choices. I mean, there's high stress and a lot of the. You guys check almost every box for like. Yeah. What could lead to. Yeah. Problems for lack of a better word. It is.

[00:18:37] And I think, um, military really at its core, it's solving problems with violence is kind of the point of the military. Right. And one of them. So I think there's a process that happens where like, well, this is a problem. I solve it with violence. I just think, um. Because you're the kind of person that wants to do that work or chooses to do that work. And then once you're doing the work, you're doing the work. So you've got years of doing that. Yeah. So it's not going to be presumably not like, all right, I'm, I'm home now. Um, I'm just going to open up and. Right.

[00:19:06] Approach it in a different way. I would imagine it took you some time or. Most definitely. Yeah. Most definitely. Um, but it's that openness. I've seen it be really impactful, especially for the younger guys. Um, you know, obviously I have my son and I'm working a lot there to make sure he is open. And like, if you need to cry, cry, man, it doesn't matter who's around. Um, and I actually had that experience. It was during a lacrosse tournament. Um, it was the end of the game, really tough game. He started crying. Um, this is, this is years ago now.

[00:19:36] And I was like, Hey, but you know, just keep it locked up. When we get to the truck, then you can let it out. Um, and I reflected on that a lot. Um, and it was almost a full year later that I readdressed it with him. I was like, you know what? I I'm sorry. I was, I was so wrong because I thought that I was doing the right thing, but really I was telling that your emotions are valid. And so I was like, man, cry. It's beautiful. It feels so good. Um, and I've, I bothered it up so much that I've experienced, uh, last Memorial

[00:20:05] day was actually over, uh, during this last deployment. And we said the special forces prayer at the end of a team meeting. And I started crying and I could not stop. I was sobbing uncontrollably for good 45 minutes. And I had one of my, he's the other medic on our team. Um, he came up and just sat with me and just held me. And, um, I bawled for nearly an hour, but it was so relieving.

[00:20:35] And at the end of it, I just had, I had all these emotions built and built and built. And I'd been shoving it down and just letting out the floodgates. Um, and I couldn't help him like, man, if you would have just access this here and there, you wouldn't gotten to the point where it's like a complete shit show for an hour straight. Um, it was a definitely a learning experience there, but. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know how much, uh, police officers work overlaps with military. In some ways, I think there's some overlap.

[00:21:03] So my buddy who ended his life, it was like late nineties and he was a New York city police officer. And I bring that up mainly because what I'd learned, uh, is it was not only, not only like the boys didn't talk about it weirdly. And you, you might know things like this, that if you talked about it, like you could go see a therapist, but we know that you saw a therapist. Good luck getting a promotion. That was a very real thing. Yeah.

[00:21:31] So I always think back and I don't know what might have happened, but it doesn't seem like the greatest policy when you're doing that kind of work in particular. No. No. And I, we've actually worked, uh, spoken about this topic with some law enforcement and it was amazing looking at, you know, there's about a hundred people, male and female, uh, police officers. And we're talking about this stuff and like, I have these negative thoughts and a self doubt and you're seeing their faces and you can tell them like, wait a minute, you have those thoughts too. And we're allowed to talk about that.

[00:22:01] Like, yes, absolutely. You know, what's fascinating is, is if you follow, if you're just on social media and I'm just not correct here, but my brain keeps going to, for some of them, they don't know that's an option. Yeah. No, but I've experienced the same thing. Right. No. Is it that they don't know it's an option or this doesn't feel comfortable enough to say, okay, Facebook's one thing, but there's a guy right there doing it. That's different. There's a guy right there doing it. So I felt I can maybe do it myself. Yeah.

[00:22:31] Yeah. That makes sense. And it has been, I mean, it's displaying that vulnerability on a, on a large stage. It's helpful there and it's super helpful for me. So it's really been a, this beautiful thing that I've kind of fallen into where I get to heal and also, and you can see, you can see people's faces. I bet. It's wild. They're like, wow. Yeah. So it's, it's been really cool. Yeah. This is interesting because my work is mostly one-on-one on zoom or some other platform. And I've done this, you know, it's been a couple of weeks.

[00:23:01] I've been driving around and going to these places. I think anybody who joins me for the podcast is pretty damn brave, but I'm like, you all leveling it up because these are other people you're doing it in front of, not just this bald dude who's sitting in his kitchen. You know what I mean? And it's just astounding to me. Like, I don't know if I could do what you're all doing. So it's pretty cool. You know, they, society puts it on how you were saying, you told Max and, you know, save it till we get to the truck. You think strength is being able to hold it in. Yeah.

[00:23:32] But it is fucking brave to be able to be honest. I mean, that, that takes that. Especially when you're like the first, you know. Nobody's doing this and you're like, I'm going to go there. Anybody can hide their feelings. It's, it takes strength to like really let it out. Okay. So what was the way you used fog? You said that word earlier. Oh yeah. I think the fog you were referring to was your stuff, the hard stuff. Yeah. The stuff that had you thinking about. Well, it's that fog of like disassociation. Okay.

[00:24:01] So this is tricky because I'm asking you kind of to summarize things in a way that you might not normally do. But I want to know a little bit more about that. The reason is not to be antagonistic and be a pain in the ass. It is because that is the exact same thing you were just talking about. I don't think people, people might talk about it. Yeah. I felt this way once in my experience, much rarer is like, and let me tell you about what was going on, whether that's my childhood or my this or my that.

[00:24:27] So I'm going to sort of put you on the spot and say, how did we get to the fog and what happened in the fog? Big, big, big question. I didn't start breaking down a lot of my issues with my dad, his addictions, attempted suicide, suicide, tell them way too long after. I believe at some point in my childhood, my mom might've said, you should probably see a therapist. Because there's, I know my dad wanted me to see one and I was very, I am not going to

[00:24:56] talk to somebody who he's already put his narrative, you know, in my stepmom, that narrative into their mind. It's not going to happen. Already. I don't know. I was just very defensive and against it all. Just really didn't want to deal with it because who really wants to deal with hard stuff? And it just kept layering and layering. And I honestly don't even know what got me there. I just couldn't do it anymore. It's exhausting to pretend.

[00:25:22] It's exhausting to push it down, to fight against it. And I was tired. I was physically tired. I'd started vomiting a lot. I'd started breaking out in hives. I was losing hair. I was really internalizing it all. How old was that? Like two and a half years ago. That's when it really came to a head? Yeah. And there wasn't a particular inciting incident per se? It was just the buildup? No, I had a really hard time. We lived in Florida for a year.

[00:25:50] I mean, I didn't get properly medicated and see a therapist until like all this went down. Really recommend getting a hold of it before it gets to that point. So yeah, trying to deal with it on my own. Very anxious, panic disorders, battle depression. And just, I guess, thought it was normal. That was normal. Yeah. I mean, I just, it was almost a funny thing. I made it a joke how anxious. I told you I don't like driving.

[00:26:18] I mean, I was scared of everything. I was scared of everything. Right. And I would panic over it. But you're smiling. I'm like, I know. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I'm not saying that. Like in your life. Oh, yeah. You're presenting as like mostly happy, funny Jillian. Yes, let's make it funny. Yeah. Yeah. You know, like, I don't want to do that. I'm sweating, but really I'm like seeing black and want to pass out. But yeah, I mean, I'd want to, it was bad. But you down talk it. So yes, I got to a point.

[00:26:48] And what's hard is when you're a mom and I truly believe in wanting to break that and set a different example for my boys and they're getting teenage. They're not dumb. They, they see it. They see you struggling. Yes. And not wanting to get out of bed or wanting to get straight into bed and that sort of thing. And you just have to realize that nobody else is coming to save you. I really want. Don't love that expression, but I think you're right. No, nobody, nobody came to sweep me up. Nobody.

[00:27:17] It's petrifying. I felt like I was almost looking at people to like, just ask me, do you want, do you want, what do you need? And it didn't happen. And, and part of, I wasn't owning it either. You were making, I had to make the decision. Right, right. I am so tired of feeling like this. I'm the only one to save me. I've got to put one foot in front of the other. And I just, it's been a work ever since. And honestly, I'll probably work at it forever, but it's worth it for the life that I feel like

[00:27:45] I've gotten back since then. Did your ideation ever get to the point? I suppose all or any ideation is rather petrifying or scary, though for me, I've gotten used to it. And so it doesn't scare me so much, though once in a while I might, you know, put on the brakes here a little bit. I got to, but was it ever to the point where you were scared or was it more abstract? I didn't have any feeling at that time. So you always hear, especially when somebody young takes their life, but so many people loved them.

[00:28:15] They had so much support. There was this and this. When you're in that mindset, that does not, you don't see those things. I got to a point where I was like, it makes sense my dad did what he did. I mean, to feel like this. Somebody could have looked at me and been like, I love you so much. Don't do, I didn't feel anything. Doesn't matter. Yeah. This is huge that people understand that. And that's why it's so scary.

[00:28:39] Or if you see a friend struggling or somebody struggling to sit with them in that. With you, it was hard to know you were struggling sometimes. But some people probably had an idea. I'm sure. Yes. Yeah. You know, she's not actually not. Yeah. I mean, yeah. We knew a little bit. You had a good smile. I thought I was doing it. That's not finding it. It's not good. Okay. So two and a half years ago was, let's say like the low point. But I struggled.

[00:29:05] I think I said this on the podcast episode that going back and when I started writing my book, I started going through my old journals and I was blown away because going back and looking at my writing, I had no idea how long I had thought these thoughts of, I no longer want to feel like this. What if I was dead? You know? So how long ago was that go? That's not tuning in for years ago, right? Since I was 10. How did this not come up? I said the exact same thing. I mean, I think same thing to you in the podcast.

[00:29:32] I think you write it, I get it out and then you move on. But I don't want to be out with my girlfriends and be like really wondering what it'd be like if I was dead. Yeah. Yeah. It's hard. Yeah. 10. Yeah. What about you, Matt? What happens in your life, wherever you want to begin to get to that point? I imagine there was at least one bottom perhaps or a series of them where you were thinking about that and then you ultimately got that. I had been in a pretty low place before the deployment.

[00:30:02] I knew this was going to be the last one. And one of my closest ally, my uncle was very dear to my heart. He was a ranger in SF and there was a couple of trips that I went on that I were absolutely terrible. And I would go see him in Florida and we'd sit down on his dock and drink coffee for like three days straight. And that was my reset. And he passed away from cancer about a month before I deployed. And how long ago was this? Just last year. Last year? Yeah.

[00:30:32] Spring of 2024. Okay. You know, it really was dependent on him. And I kind of realized with him passing, didn't kind of, I realized that I never really learned to process grief in a healthy manner because, you know, I had friends die in combat. I've had friends that committed suicide and you just go to the funeral and you keep going and you just kind of ignore it. Um, at least I, I just kind of ignored it and it really took me down, uh, quite a bit.

[00:31:00] And then the trip was really hard and I started going through all these things the past 24 years. Um, being a medic has been wonderful because I've gotten to actually save friends in combat and that's, I can't think of a more beautiful thing. Um, but I've had to do the other side too. And so I really kind of battled with like, okay, I'm like actually was writing numbers to see which one outweighed the other and having so much guilt. Um, moral injury is a thing on special operations, whole PTSD thing.

[00:31:30] Is it really, uh, in fact, I have a friend that likes to call it LTS for lack of traumatic stress, um, because we, we get so comfortable with the chaos. Right. Um, it really is where we feel the sharpest. And then once the chaos is removed, um, then you're trying to invent it, which is why you see so many guys, the drug addiction and all the women and every other bad thing you think of, cause they're trying to create, uh, this self-destructiveness.

[00:31:56] And it was, I mean, being honest, I think going to the military and special operations is a way, it was my way of being self-destructive, but it's forgotten country and you know, all these great things. So, but ultimately, um, that was the route and I just kind of, uh, started going down and then when you got back. Well, I was still over there. Um, some work, this was in Tajikistan. Wow. You know, there was some work that did not sit right with me again. The moral injury thing is big there.

[00:32:25] There's obviously things you have to do that do not align with your ethics and morals that you grew up with. And that creates this monster inside of you that just almost seems impossible to process. And I didn't, um, you know, I would talk to guys and have them be open with me and think that I was doing the right thing. Like I said, the younger guys specifically be like, Hey, let's talk about it. Don't, don't get to what you're seeing right now. Address this now so that you don't get to where I'm at. But I wasn't addressing it myself. You were there for them, but you weren't. Okay.

[00:32:55] And, uh, you know, it was just kind of silly because I knew what I should be doing and I'm telling people what they should be doing, but I wasn't doing any of those things myself. I also have, uh, work with the military that I, I do stuff out by myself. And so I really kind of felt isolated. And then I started isolating myself more. I'd go out and work and then I'd come back to the team house and just write up reports, sleep for an hour and then go about and do it again. Um, and the sleep deprivation is definitely was a big factor there.

[00:33:23] Oh, did you cope your degree? Sorry to cut you off. Did you cope at all with booze, drugs to get by? Yeah, we, um, it was, you know, everything's readily available there. Yeah. So I was staying up for days on end on Adderall and I would take an Ambien to sleep for an hour, then go do it again. Um, I got to a point where I was getting up in the morning and taking a pole of vodka right out of the bottle. I wasn't really getting a place to drunk, but still, you know, I was, I was medicating with everything I could get my hands on. Sure.

[00:33:53] And, uh, it just was this vicious cycle that kept on burning down. Um, and I had wonderful support. Yeah. This is all over there. Okay. Um, great team. Very, very close. I mean, their, their family is as close a bond as you, as you can have with someone who's not an actual family member. And so I had that there right at my fingertips, but I still, I pushed them all away. I didn't even realize the guys who had the room beneath me, um, I had my own room and they would hear about two months into it when I was getting really low. They're like, Hey man, what's going on?

[00:34:22] Like, I don't know if you realize, but we can hear you at night. Like one night it is fucking bawling, crying. The next night we're hearing chairs smashing and you screaming like, dude, we need to talk. And I guess I was so, I just tried to stay so focused on the job at hand, um, and just ignored everything else. And it really felt like all those two decades of war just all kind of fell on me all at the same time. And my uncle passing right before I left, that was like my one lifeline actually on the flight home.

[00:34:51] We're like halfway over the ocean and I'm just sitting there in the seat. Like, Oh, I just need to see Jeff. We'll sit on the porch or drink coffee. It's going to be fine. And it just clicked in my head. Jeff's gone. Hmm. The fuck am I going to talk to? And I have this incredible woman who's been my champion, um, my entire life. We've been together since we were teenagers. She's very, very rare. Um, I'm incredibly fortunate to have her and that she stuck with me and all my craziness.

[00:35:21] But I, with all this, all the support and love, um, it, I, it was me that I really had to address. And I, it took me a long time to realize that. Um, cause I am incredibly fortunate to be, I'm surrounded by love and support. Is it similar to what Jillian said in that it doesn't matter if people at that time, you're, you're an amazing human being. I love you. All that may not have made a difference. You don't, you don't hear it at all. Similar in that it just, no.

[00:35:50] And then look, you don't really know what's going on. Yeah. You don't know all the bad things I've done. You don't know. And you don't get it. Yeah. What about the guys that asked you that question that were below you when they came to you? Cause I'm sure this is somewhat common. What, what did you say to them? Like, I got it. I'm good. Don't worry about it. Pretty much. Get out of, get the fuck off. Like what, what was the vibe like? Not, not to that severity, but it was. That's both a New York vibe. I'm good. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. New York response. New York military person might be a little more like that. Right. It was pretty open. I could talk some.

[00:36:20] And my friend who, who, um, consoled me while I was, uh, crying on Memorial Day. It was great. Cause I could talk to him a lot. Um, you know, he's a PA civilian side and he's Delta force and he's a pilot and he's like world's most interesting man. Um, but he is an incredibly compassionate human being. And Tom, my wife and my daughter are the only reason that I made it home from that trip. You know, you have this battle and I've heard other guys say this too, we're like, my family's better off without me. I was thinking the same thing. I've heard that.

[00:36:49] And then I've heard guys tell us to me and I'm like, you're so wrong. No. Cause I've been to the suicide funerals. I've seen what happens to this family and my wife having lost her mother, was it, it was to cancer, but still to see the trauma of losing a parent. Yeah. And then for me to even consider that. Yeah. It's just not. And then I, this vicious cycle of, you know, guilt and shame starts burning more, which just drives me further. It's messy. It's messy. You had a plan at some point? Yeah. Hmm. And that was over there?

[00:37:19] Yep. Talk about it in as much as you want to, but how close were you? I mean, I, I had a body bag ready. I had a bottle of propofol. So that would have been for you? For me. Okay. It's a, we, we can do minor surgical procedures. So we have a propofol is what, how Michael Jackson died. Okay. And so I was trying to figure out the cleanest way to do it. So there would be, wouldn't be a burden on the rest of the team. Hmm. And so I didn't, I had, I had the medication and everything set and I was, I planned to drive to the embassy.

[00:37:46] I know right where they keep the bodies and I was just going to park right next to it, put myself in the body bag, zip it up as much as I could and, and do it. What stopped you? That did. Oh. Seriously. It did. Made a big picture of it, enlarged it on our printer and put up pictures of my family around it. And so I saw that every day to make sure I'm like, it's just not an option to both my family and my teammates to do that to them. Side note of that. Hmm. Daughter did not, we did not know that it was this bad.

[00:38:16] She wrote that. I was thinking about that. I don't know. Wow. Well. Just randomly wrote it one day. Maybe not so random, but who knows? It's not. Whether it doesn't matter what the truth is. It matters what you think about. Yeah. It really doesn't matter. I've really just recently found faith. I don't know exactly what, but in the universal power and something because so many things have happened that just couldn't be coincidence. Yeah. Sure. That just aligned perfectly. There was a specific time on a deployment that I remember where I saw something and

[00:38:43] thought in my head, I'm like, there's no way that can be a God if I'm looking at this right now. Mm-hmm. And that kind of stuck and it left this hole inside of me that had just been there for years and I've tried to shove other things into it to fill it. But since I've been home in my own healing, again, so many things have happened that just simply couldn't be coincidence. Yeah. That I know I'm where I'm supposed to be. I'm doing the right thing. I'm on the right path now.

[00:39:08] And I just need to keep my heart and mind open and it's going to be clear. Yeah. I mean. I've been meeting a mom on the lacrosse field two and a half years ago when she was at her lowest. I had no idea. Right. She was smiling probably, right? Mm-hmm. I mean, why not? Yeah. Hmm. So a question for both of you about myths or misconceptions or what people in your experience don't understand. It's a question I'm sure I asked you.

[00:39:38] What comes to mind? The kind of thing when you hear it or see it, you're like, that's bullshit. I think the biggest misconception is that only certain people will find themselves feeling like this. It just doesn't discriminate. You can take the person that's the most blessed in life and they're still going to have these battles. That's probably the biggest. You know? Or like, look at her.

[00:40:07] She's always smiling and laughing. What does she have to be depressed about? Why is she just having a bad day or she's just off? You know? Yeah. I mean, I really think that it can truly happen to anybody. Mm-hmm. It's not like we bring this on ourselves. Nobody would ever want to feel this way. Yeah. No, I definitely agree. And I've seen that too. Even people are like, well, I haven't, you know, I haven't been in the military. I haven't experienced what you have.

[00:40:34] I've even had guys in the military who are like, I haven't seen as much combat as you. And I'm like, please stop. Right. We all experience trauma. It's every single one of us. Like they try to downplay. Yeah. They try to downplay it. I'm like, we all process it differently. It's all very real and very serious. Yours isn't any less than mine. Right. That's huge. And it's been frustrating because I'm like, your battles are important. They're valid. Well, and I feel like too, I didn't mean to cut you. No, no, no. It's your.

[00:41:00] And this isn't in reference to me, but for my dad, as a suicide loss survivor, there's even stigma within that. I mean, because he fell into addiction before he took his life. I almost feel stigmatized in the lost survivors too, because maybe it wasn't just a, you know what I mean? Like there's so much stigma within the stigma. There's just so much against you. So much.

[00:41:28] That makes this even harder to come and speak about and try to fight against and make changes. I'm very lucky. Maybe it didn't take me that long doing this podcast where I didn't have to try to find anybody. You reached out. That had been the thing that's been going on and it still goes up. That helps me a lot. Right. The reason I'm sharing that is some of the emails will be like, Hey, listen to your podcast. I'm a temp survivor. How does this work? Okay. That's, that's one thing.

[00:41:58] Second kind is 43 pages of a life history that just never ends. And I'm like, okay, that's what we're going to do on the podcast. If you talk. So I didn't read it all, but in that, and sometimes other emails, the third category, which overlaps with the second is, I don't think my story is probably good enough because I heard this guy who was in the military and I didn't go into. But this is common. Yeah. Yeah. But I don't know, you know, maybe a little bit. They don't know how it works in that. I'll talk to anybody who is in that space. And they think that, I don't know where that comes from. Probably several places.

[00:42:27] Just like, I'm not good enough. My story is not this enough. Not that enough. I'm like, no, no, no. You're good. It is. And it's part of that negative self-talk and that self-doubt. It's all that same monster that we all experience. All under the spectrum of the image that I was talking about, you know? It is. Well, yeah, I'm struggling. But like, am I struggling? Like, Matt's struggling. You know, do I have a reason to feel this way? And that's where people need that validation and they need to feel seen and understood. Some of that does come from what we hear, though, right?

[00:42:56] Particularly like, well, you don't have it as bad as your brother. We hear these things, right? Yeah, that stuff's ingrained. Yeah, that's true. And it's all kinds of things that people say to you growing up and in your life. Eat your food. There's starving kids in Africa. You know what I mean? Like, you don't have it as bad. And that these are people that presumably mean well. Right. Maybe they even love the shit out of you. But it gets in your head and you're like, I don't know. So you have this kick-ass among, you do a lot of work in the field. I follow you on Instagram, which I just figured out how to do. But like, your stuff is very good.

[00:43:28] I'm so not techie for a podcast. I'm the worst techie person. You have to understand, like, I figured out how Zoom works. I hit record. The mic is okay. That's all you really need to do. I'm not Joe Rogan. Thank God. Right. She's got like a whole team. You know what I mean? Like, I'm just a dude. But yes, I am like a ditch. Brave woman thing. Brave mind movement. Brave mind movement. Brave woman thing works too. That you could have rebranded it. Next memoir.

[00:43:58] That's free. Yeah. That's free advice. Yeah. NAMI stuff. Yes. I'm on the board of directors for NAMI now, Johnson County. Any way I can have my hand in speaking, speaking, speaking, peer to peer, just sharing voices. I really think that's the best way to do anything is to share stories and to speak and put it in people's faces and make them uncomfortable. Yeah. This is for both of you.

[00:44:27] I think you both brought it up. You were very explicit about it in that if you're, you actually both talked about this. If you're in this space, what someone's saying to you, husband, wife, I love you, you're not getting it at that point. You're not necessarily, it doesn't work. So how do you in your roles in helping people, whatever that looks like, bridge the gap? Because you said something that I was like, oh, I really want to ask him about this. Because you see a guy or maybe a woman, someone who feels the way you felt.

[00:44:56] It's like, no, no, no, no, no. You said something like, no, no, but it's like, but they are feeling in some ways the way you felt. Yeah. So how do you bridge the gap? Where, what do you, how does that work? I. That's not loaded. Like, I don't know. I want to know. I've been trying to figure that out myself. Yeah. And the only, I mean, again, just, just being as vulnerable as you can be and sharing that and trying to create, make them feel comfortable enough to speak on it. And that's, that's the only solution that I've really found.

[00:45:25] You know, I actually have a, a friend of mine likes to call it authentic, not vulnerable for the military. Cause he's like, everyone thinks vulnerable is weak. Like, and so he's like, we're authentic. Call it whatever you want. I know. Right. Exactly. Um, but again, it's trying to figure out a way to make people comfortable and speaking about these things. Cause it really is healing. And again, I've, I've seen that actual physical change in someone when they, their guard drops. I'm like, Oh, it's, it's okay to talk about this. Yes, it is. Let's cry right now.

[00:45:53] I bet that's exactly what happens a lot of the times. I have a, for some people, maybe it skews towards men more. I don't know. Like for some of those guys, it must be years. Yeah. Like it was for you. And so. It has been. And it's, it, once it dumps, I had a very close friend of mine who I know I idea that this had even happened. And we went through an incredible healing experience together and we spent almost a full 24 hours crying together. We're actually driving down out of the mountains together.

[00:46:21] Uh, and I'm like punching him in the arm while he's driving. And I had my head hanging out the window going, we deserve to be happy. Um, but something that came up with him was he was sexually abused as a kid and he'd kept this monster inside of him his entire life and just kept it bottled up. And once he finally let it out, it completely changed his life. Yeah. It's just like, man, I wish you would have done that years ago. No one thinks anything less of you. In fact, it explains a lot of behaviors that you've been feeling guilty about, man.

[00:46:51] Like. I wonder how many of your, your, um, well, people in general, but I'm specifically military are just the monsters there and they're still, they're not talking about it. Yeah. It's gotta be a pretty big number. I think, um, what I've actually found now that I'm in this, my peer group of everyone working through this healing journey together is I'm realizing the larger majority of us have some pretty significant childhood traumas that were never spoken about.

[00:47:15] In fact, that's what I think drove us to the military and special operations because again, you're, that chaos is something that you already have figured out how to deal with. It's a class for good. And then you're going, um, I have a friend that calls it the warrior and the destroyer and the warrior is the good, um, that you're born with. It's who you're meant to be. And the destroyer is something you create as a protective shell. Um, and so some people, when they go to war, they have to figure out what the destroyer is.

[00:47:42] But for a lot of us who have those childhood traumas, we already know the destroyer very well. Um, and so we can kind of seamlessly flow right into that, that work. But again, the problem is when you, when you come home and you get out of the military, your identity is gone and that destroyer is still there. And learning how to turn that off and put that away and just become the warrior and the good is really, really difficult. Um, it's, you know, we find our identity in the military. Yeah, yeah, of course.

[00:48:08] But problem with that is that that shows us that we didn't have an identity before the military. And so like, you know, you're stuck in the chaos and everything, you know, is gone and you have no idea who you are and you're in your forties now. And you're like, wait a minute, I don't know what to do. Um, and again, people start putting bad things in that void and it starts spiraling. And that's how a lot of the suicides I think happen. The warrior and the destroyer.

[00:48:36] As a budding publisher of titles, you are like killing it. I mean, I'm just like, forget the podcast thing. I just want to be memoir. Well, I can't take credit for that. I have a friend, Tyler. Yeah, yeah. That might already be a thing. He came out with a book called Forging in Chaos and that's really what it's about. Yeah. He did a really good job on it. He's very, very, but he's, he's the, it's authentic, not vulnerable, but he's vulnerable as fuck in his book.

[00:49:05] And I was super proud of him. And he had a lot of great lessons in there. Yeah. And it's like, I, there's a couple of times when I walked in the bedroom and Sarah's crying. I'm like, Oh, what's going on? She's like, I'm reading Tyler's book. Cause you just identify it. But again, seeing that I'm like telling that story had such a huge impact on me. And I'm like, man, I need to do this too. We all need to do this. Speak in large public forums because even one, I know it sounds cheesy, but one person. That truly is all it takes to like not feel alone.

[00:49:33] And how you're describing identity with the military. I think identity in general, how society makes us feel by a certain age. You should be at this point or married or, you know, whatnot. And it makes us struggle with what are we doing wrong that we're not where we feel like we're supposed to be.

[00:49:52] Instead of just accepting that there is no one box to fit any of this, to let us all have our, like embrace our own identity and how we choose and what we choose to do with it. But instead we feel all these pressures of, well, I've been in this box for so long. And then now what? I mean, I told you on a podcast how I quit drinking over two years ago now.

[00:50:16] So I went from this wild child, which I mean, I still have my loud wildness to me, but like, But when I, you know, that was a great way for me to hide. It's like, we're going out, we're doing this. When I, when I left that, who am I? I'm not that loud partier. Get the party started. Let's host everything and be busy every day of the week. It was different.

[00:50:45] And that's where I lost friends. When you're talking about friends. I was in Chicago and I have a friend of mine, whoever, I don't see very often, but she's like one of these, it's just like certain people in your life. It's like the wisdom they drop, but it's like the jet. And you're like, damn, I told her I drink almost every day. It really reminds me of the identity stuff. I usually don't share stuff, but I like, this is kind of a cool space. I want to share this with you all. So interesting. I've never been really the person who's having like the coffee parties and it was social. I'm like the solo.

[00:51:15] I'll drink alone. And she said, and she's been there, the drugs, she lost friends. She was the alcoholic, heroin addict. She's been there. She's clean now. She's like pushing 70. She said, what do you think is going to happen to you? And I said, pretty good chance. It's not going to end well. I'm not saying when probably slow suicide. You might argue some of this behavior is, and it's not that intense. I don't, I'm not doing hard drugs, but I'm drinking almost every day after this. At some point, I'll get a couple of beers. It's like very much within the realm of accepted behavior.

[00:51:45] But she said, what happens if you don't drink one night? I'm like, fuck that. What would happen? I'm like, I don't know. One night. Because originally she pitched 30 days. I was like, 30 days? Like, I've been doing this for a while. And I'm productive. Like, I've got a podcast. I can dress my, I'm like, not. Then I hear the voice. I'm like, oh, this is what alcoholics sell. Okay. So that's where I'm at. Interesting. You know? It's a big one. Yeah. It's a big one. You drink? I do. I've limited it quite a bit.

[00:52:15] I've had quite a few addiction issues. And it's been there my whole life. The military was a great way for me to check that box. Adrenaline is by far the most addictive and best drug there is. You come down from it, though. Yeah, you do. How do you do that? Well, when you stick with it as long as I have, you get to a point where you don't. You do not. I actually just got a subdural ganglion block a couple times. So we get to a point where your sympathetic nervous system is on.

[00:52:45] So I've been in flight mode for over a decade. You're just always turned on. But even when you're in Shawnee? Yes. Every restaurant you walk into, you're ready for a gunfight. All the time. The lacrosse dad that a kid is down and he has his first aid thing and he is out there. Is that you? Yeah. I mean, he's ready at all times. So is it really like that? Like, it's like ready? Because he's like a lights guard on the cross. Yeah, we've seen a car accident in front of us a couple times. And I actually, we had one, someone got to see one right in front of us.

[00:53:15] And Sarah, the coolest thing ever. You know, of course we have everything in there. But boom, car explodes in front of us. I look at her and she just goes, go. Go! Yeah, she goes, go. She locks traffic, gets out. She's waving them all down. And I jump in and. But that's hard to do 24-7. Yes. To live that way, right? Yes. And I've used drugs and alcohol to numb that as much as I can. Yeah. And I'm just actually very recently cleaned up. Yeah? And it's been.

[00:53:44] I'm awake for the first time in a really, really long time. It's a whole other level of clarity. Just this last weekend, Sarah had a couple of our friends pull her aside and go, Matt seems happy. Ah. Ah. That was really special for me because I guess you don't even realize. You don't realize. You have no fucking clue. Yeah. How absent you are. You don't know it until you taste it a little bit. Yeah. For me, I feel like it's like the anxiety and then I don't take any medication for that. I probably should.

[00:54:13] But when I take it, I'm like, oh shit. I don't know if I'm cheating here a little bit, but is this what not anxiety feels like? Yeah. Because I don't. And it's a bitter, sweet thing though. Because for me, I'm like, oh, I missed out on some stuff. But okay. At least I have access to it. So that's where you're at with Ish? Yeah. Yeah. I've been able to, you know, fortunate enough to have a few nonprofits help me out. So I've been through some TBI treatment programs. Nice.

[00:54:42] And the subdural ganglion block was huge. And it's a long-acting nerve block that they put near vagus nerve. So it just deactivates part of your sympathetic system. And the first one I got, I actually slept for three nights in a row for seven to eight hours, which it's been well over a decade since I've experienced that. And then the second round I got, I did. It gave me this overall sense of calm that I had not experienced in a very long time. Is that how you feel right now? I do.

[00:55:11] I mean, this might be a little nerve-wracking, but you seem pretty calm. No, it's, I'm a lot calmer than I really would have expected. It's being comfortable talking about this stuff. It's, again, it's incredibly healing for me. I almost feel selfish about it. But I do like, I know it's helping other people. Yeah. Yeah. From a selfish place, this is really fucking good for me. Selflessly selfish. Agreed. Like, I mean, it feels, I feel like every time I talk about it or have conversations, I heal a little bit more of myself. Oh.

[00:55:40] Did I ask you, I don't know if it came up, and if it did, I apologize. When you got back from Tajikistan, what switched that you were like, I gotta get, something's gotta change. I don't know if that came up. If it did, I apologize. Yeah, no. Not that it's one moment. That it's not long ago. You know, I went into this work with a non-profit and a job with Korn Medical, and I just kind of kept going, going, going. And Sarah was a big part of that.

[00:56:08] She's really put her foot down hard, and as it dresses for me. She's an extremely tough woman. It's one of the things I love about her. She's right there. I know. She's right there. She's listening. She can hear everything. I was waiting to see what he was actually going to see. Well, what's he going to find? Wait, wait. I don't want you to lose your train of thought, but when I asked the question, I saw you with this little smirk. I'm like, all right, something's going to come up with her here. Come on. What else are you? I really had to have a lot of others. Again, I didn't see it.

[00:56:33] I thought I was still functioning and doing all the things, and I was right, but I have been a complete fucking mess. So you have to own that, right? Not own that. Like, your wife or anybody can say it. It's my closest. How does it change? Closest people to say, hey, dude. Like an intervention type? Yeah. Yeah, basically. Basically. Just in little pieces. In little pieces. Yeah, they didn't have like an official sit down. Sure. I've had people be like, something's up. I've known you for a long time. There's something we need to talk about.

[00:57:02] And again, I was like, I've got this. No one knows any of my dirty little secrets. I'm still functioning at a high level. So it really took me back. I was like, wow, I haven't been fooling anybody. It's been a long battle, you know? But it's only been a year. So I'm actually, that's pretty good. I've seen a lot of guys who have completely fallen apart their year out. But again, I'm incredibly fortunate to have all the love and support that I have. It's gotta be part of it.

[00:57:58] Yeah. I've been in a glove and covered his wife and two-year-old and took around. But I talked to Caleb in the hospital the next day. And he was, you know, pretty upbeat for having just been shot. But he was in a tough way. He wasn't paralyzed. But he had neuropathy so bad that if he just brushed his leg and said it felt like napalm was poor. And the bullet actually lodged between L3 and L4 so they couldn't remove it. And we started getting help. And I was like, okay, like I have this job. We can do this.

[00:58:27] My boss is super helpful. I mean, he got all these donors to chip in. And we were getting him some help. We got them a housing situation and all that lined up. But it went on for a few weeks. And then my boss set up stem cell therapy for him because he went into the VA. And the neurologist was like, well, we can't pull it out because you'll definitely be a paraplegic. So why don't you come back in a year and we'll check in on you? He has a meltdown, goes home. And that weekend he was out and his son was just learning how to ride his bicycle.

[00:58:56] And he fell down and hurt himself and Caleb couldn't help him. He turned around. He went in the house. He locked the door, turned off the lights and put a gun to his head. I'm truly not making this up. At the same moment, I got this huge, like over my whole body tingling, call fucking Caleb right now. It's like that video you showed me. It was. And then when I called him, he's just bawling, crying. And I'm like, what's going on, man? We got the stem cells. He's like, no, I can't afford the stem cells. And I was like, oh, no one's called yet, have they?

[00:59:26] And I told him, I was like, hey, we got this treatment lined up, dude. There's a chance, you know, we can get you better. And I didn't even realize it at the time, but he was seconds away from pulling the trigger when I called him. Seconds. He went and got the stem cell therapy and he is like running now. And it really doesn't happen with everyone, but it really worked well for him. And so he's doing great. And so even that alone, like, okay, something is happening, correct?

[00:59:54] Like, you're aware of what you're supposed to be doing. I feel like when you've been there, you can almost sense it in other people. Yeah. Like, you're like, I felt that look that you have right now. I've been there. There's a connection that I don't understand, but it's very real. We're all connected and it's becoming more and more visible to me when I work with people.

[01:00:16] Again, there's like universal something that I've, again, personally found that keeping my heart and mind open, I'm hearing so much more. I was trapped in this little thing and I'm this soldier guy and I'm doing these things and thought that I was righteous and everything. And it really was misguided and I was put myself in a box. And once I got to a point where I could just open up and just leave it all out, it was incredibly freeing. And I'm doing my best to try to share that.

[01:00:46] And again, it's as easy as just being honest and opening it up. Easy, but really hard. It's really hard. Yeah, you say it's easy as being honest, but that's the hardest part. The actual act weird is hard. Because getting the whole, like, just talk about it campaigns, I got a lot to say about those. And I want to go on my little thing about this, this, this, this. But I have never really researched or taken data from all these conversations. I probably should. Obviously, I don't talk to people who aren't alive. And there's a reason I'm sharing that.

[01:01:15] I can only talk to people who are still alive, whether they're suicidal or not, whether it was a one little day in their life or they've tried 50 times. I think, though, that the ones that, and this is maybe correlative more than anything else, but it is legitimately that if somebody has somebody, that is the difference. Not the only thing. But you can talk about addiction and all access to guns and this. There's all kinds of moving parts, all kinds of things.

[01:01:42] But I think the thing that stands out, perhaps it's a little confirmation bias. It's, yep, you don't have anybody. I wonder if in a year we're going to talk again or not. You have some people that you seem to really be connected with. I really do feel like that's, that said, it's still hard though, because it's not always easy to go out and make a new friend who can talk about this stuff. And you really feel like that's hard. Not everybody has that. So I'm not the guy to offer solutions, but it's just an observation. Like, I really think that might, if not the number one thing,

[01:02:09] it is perhaps not news to anybody, but it really stands out. Yeah. Like, you can feel the loneliness and the pain and it's like, and then if you have some people, it's like, it doesn't make you necessarily happy, but it might be the difference of getting you through. Original thoughts by Sean. Is there anything else you want to share for now? There are some questions. I know it's another second. No, I want to hear if anybody else has. Questions or sharing stuff if you want or whatever else. It's something that I think is really fascinating. And there's a common ground that I'm taking from each of you tonight.

[01:02:39] And I think it's humanity, human to human. Doesn't always have to be this greater, you know, I mean, Black people call it ate that God. Like that known, I would say ate that God, right? Or greater universe, whatever it may be. But I think that human to human is what gives me the most clarity. You know, I can be sitting in a room with Jillian. She doesn't have to say a single word. I see how she sits.

[01:03:06] I see her eyes start to disassociate. And I know, get her some ice cream. I just know, like, she's decompressing now, whatever it is. And I think that it's the intuition that human beings have if they're willing to pay attention to it. And I get a lot of that from you. I think your experiences and the boxes you've been placed in, because we all have our own boxes. I think what you're communicating to me is you've been able to now become human. I think it's really beautiful that you get to have that. And you are so lucky.

[01:03:36] I know. I'm like, kudos to her. But I think at the end of the day, you know, being a New Yorker, one thing I started to do was I started to carry tissue in my purse. Because every single day when I started paying attention, I would see someone crying. Every single day. Oh, wow. Wow. You were locked into that. I was locked into that because I decided to start paying attention to it. And I think that when I started to have my own things that I've been through,

[01:04:04] you know, being a sister to someone who struggles with mental health and family and whatever it may be, I always had to be the one that was the strong one or whatever it may be, or parentify daughter and, you know, all of the things that go on. And I started to realize when I started to bring myself down a notch and say things like, I just heard this voice in my head that was like, this is somebody's sweet baby. Because that's how humanity came to me.

[01:04:34] So I started looking at every single person and saying, this was somebody's sweet baby. And that really gave me a chance to be vulnerable and have empathy and all the things that you're talking about. But I think once you get, that was what came human to me. Because I'm an asshole. I am. You are not. Oh, I am. I'm resonating with that. Oh, really? I'm like, stop on my shoe. Okay, I am. You better, you know, whatever.

[01:05:00] The whole point is, is I think what you found, and I know this in Jillian as well, but not knowing you and listening to you, I think what is so beautiful is you've found to be human to human. And those are the connections you're having. And it is so wonderful. So thank you for sharing. Thank you. Also, down to toxic masculinity. Yes! Yeah! I was like, who's this guy? Somebody's sweet baby. I have.

[01:05:29] I've talked to guys about that too. Everyone hates, you know, they get super angry when they hear that. I'm like, dude, it is real. And guess what? You're most toxic to yourself. Yeah. That's what the true toxic, like, you're destroying yourself with that bullshit. But it's been great to see, starting to spread the military, that change. Yeah. And it's being addressed even at the level of the Pentagon. And let's not just talk about pumping more money into suicide prevention, not doing anything with it. Let's talk about actual mental health issues.

[01:05:59] We're pushing to get more blood work done on people to figure out what's going on in physiology. Oh, physical, biology. And actually, yeah, because there are things that can't be fixed. And so it's been really cool to see the transformation just from, you know, 2001 to now that I've experienced. Because before that, the military has been doing the same thing. But again, it's like you're making much more effective war fighters for people who can process emotions in a healthy manner. Like putting it in a box is just, you know, and then we have, that's what's going to bring your suicide rates down.

[01:06:26] How about we address this when they get in and work on mental health the whole time? And just preventative all around. I mean, I'm so, like you can start to see trends young. And to get in there and start addressing those early, I mean, right there is huge. Yeah. The woman who helps run this bookstore, it's her daughter. And she's got another daughter, younger daughter who's here. Is the mom here? Is your mom still here? No.

[01:06:55] She has a younger sister. Yes. Who's 10. When we were setting up, I came a little early. Her mom and the 10-year-old heard the podcast. I'm like, 10-year-old? She's like, yeah, we got to be open about this stuff. And yeah, she's still a mom. I mean, she's probably been like, all right, go off now. And just, no. But all right. That's how you do it. Start small. Does anybody else have anything that they would like to share on? They're thinking, I don't know if I want to talk or share, but they might. But you let that silence differ for a while. They'll start. The therapeutic silence.

[01:07:25] It's so beautifully awkward. I love that silence. I just want to say, like, to Jillian, how open she is with her kids. Yeah. And I haven't always been the best mom, but. Yes, she got that. Like, when your kids can talk to you about what they feel like. And they're like, mom, we don't want to see you like this. Or mom, I see my friend like this.

[01:07:51] And when your kids can come to you and confide in you, like, that's when it really starts. Like, making sure that, like, they're safe and they feel loved at any age, no matter what they do, any situation. I will come get you. I will stop what I'm doing. Like, you're my number one. Like, you count. You matter. And so I think it's really important, like, right now as parents. And we're, like, we're in our 40s now.

[01:08:19] I've been doing parenting for a lot longer than some of my friends. But it's just, I love that. I love that narrative that, like, we can talk about this. Like, it's not, not everything is behind closed doors anymore. And I wish more people were something I really try to put, make other kids' parents aware of, because mine are 13 and 14.

[01:08:44] You know, if they come home and they say, my friend is talking about self-harm or suicidal ideation or anything, how you handle it is how they're going to, that is going to open up the door whether they feel comfortable going to you or not. Yeah, sure. You know what I mean? It's, how are you going to handle it? Are you going to say, you know, this is not normal, but let's talk about this. Let's see how we can help them. You know, we've been there.

[01:09:12] But you don't need to get very, you know, aggressive or maybe you shouldn't hang out with them while they're going through a hard time. Or just freak out. People have a knee jerk, right, with a lot of things. Well, and I think with teenagers, especially parents feel if a friend is going through a hard time and they let their son go hang out with this friend. Well, now this kid is going to start having those feelings too. It's contagious. Which is, this is why the teen suicide rates are so high.

[01:09:41] You know, you're making them feel even more alone. Yet here we are trying to promote, just talk about it and have a conversation. Well, if we're not in on the conversation, it's going to backfire. Totally. And how, when your kids almost test you when they come to you with information about their friends. Oh yeah, it's like a witness test? You know, yeah. Yeah, I don't have kids though. I mean, I feel like it is. I would always go to my mom about you all. So, I mean, you. I was like.

[01:10:13] So, and how she handled it, you know. She was the one. She was the one. Yeah. I think to that point, what's really important to your point is sitting with your children and your children and all of your, you know. But one thing that your oldest said to me, we were sitting out having lunch. She came out. I don't know where we were. And he made a comment to you. And I came out. And I could tell. We were both in and upper. And I could tell there was this moment between them.

[01:10:43] I could sense it. I could feel it. And I just sat. And I didn't say anything. And you looked at me. And you said, can I tell you what Luke had just told me? And that was a moment where I knew things were changing. I don't know if you want to share. He just said, I try to talk about all the things with him. It's comfortable. I think been completely forthcoming about my personal struggles fully as of yet will come with age.

[01:11:09] But they are very aware of how my dad died and just struggles in general. And I talk to him a lot about generational trauma. You know, each time a generation is born, we're all just trying to do better than our parents. You know, we all just want to do better. Me, mom, and papa, they did the best they could with what they had. And then we're doing the best we can with what this is how change happens is you want to keep making it better. And he looked at me and he's like, well, you're breaking the cycle.

[01:11:36] And I mean, to have him say that and to be aware, it just shows that he sees me every day trying and being aware. And which one of your friends is having a hard time? These are the things we should look for. Even him with his struggles. He's got chronic health issues. Like, there's a lot of struggles there. And how are we going to handle it and talk about it and normalize it? And yeah. Supporting emotional intelligence. Yeah. And our youth. It's otherwise we're screwed. Yeah.

[01:12:06] There was no, like, course. There was no books. There might have been, like, one book. I don't know. There was none. Where the... Like, what was... Mr. Rogers. Oh, I'm sorry. My mom gifted me the book, Dr. Laura, the, like, stupid decisions women make. And was like, read this. And like, you know, I mean... The best you can ever watch out there. Yeah. Yeah. You know. But that's... That's right. Yeah. That's right. So, and that is. She was, you know, helping in her way.

[01:12:35] And she was like, open to learning and growing. And yeah. What were you going to say? Oh, I just had an extremely proud dad moment recently. Our daughter is a hardcore empath. She's the sweetest thing on the planet. But I've been trying to get... Promote journaling to my kids. I've been... Not every morning, but most mornings I get out and I journal them with my feet. A pair of feet in the grass. First thing, just get... Fill at least a page or two. And she had a friend at school who was having a hard time. And she actually told her. She's like, do you have a journal? She's like, no.

[01:13:05] She's like, well, do you have a notebook? Notebook works too. You know what I mean? It sucks. It really writes your feelings down. It might make you feel better also. Oh, man. Made me very proud. You said part of it. I wanted to... One of my favorite mantras that I got from a friend. It's, I'm safe. I'm loved. I'm present. And I use that every day, multiple times. And it... What if you don't feel it? Do you say it if you don't feel it? That's the thing with mantras that are sometimes... I especially say it when I don't feel it.

[01:13:32] I think if you start to do affirmations every day, though, you... Like, you own it. Yeah. So you don't just save it for the hard days. Right, right. Do I feel it? You know what I mean? It's almost like if you really embed it in you, it's like it brings you back. It's like the purpose. Yeah, my brain was going somewhere else because there's a lot of people who just are not actually safe. But to your point, it's the words you use. My mantra is, is I want to lash out and like strindle people. Well, sorry I told you I was going to kill you. I'm not. He's new.

[01:14:00] But all jokes aside, my mantra is everybody's somebody's sweet baby. It can be anything. Yeah. Like, it doesn't... I love that I'm safe. Like, I don't say that because I don't necessarily always feel it. Mm-hmm. But I can always remind myself that everybody's somebody's sweet baby and that brings the temperature where it needs to be. Yeah. So it's all about... Yeah. It could be linguistics for our cease coasters or it could be, you know, just something that you need to say. I think if you've seen it at work and, you know, with friends... You just got to find the thing. You just have to find the thing that you're worth. You got to find the thing.

[01:14:29] Sorry, Sean, but you're not going to make my memoir. Yeah. Do you have a memoir? Are you thinking about making a memoir? Do you have memoir-worthy life experience? Yeah. Really? So then what is... Let's talk. It is. Maybe you don't like the words. You just... You see, like, that's part of the process. Everything is sort of meta... Somebody's sweet. Yeah. Yeah, but like... Sorry. So stay in your lane. Yeah. My thing.

[01:14:57] I 100% agree with that, by the... Thanks, too. Yeah. Somebody's sweet baby is really good. Subtitle may be needed still, but... I'm busy. Talk to her about that, by the way. Because we want her book to sell, also. It's going to sell. Yeah. I just... I know that this is, like, a really hard topic, and I appreciate everybody, like, coming and being open. And I know, especially for my mom and probably my brother, sometimes when I... You know, you talk about these things as, like, the family, it's hard to hear. But... Yeah. I really appreciate it. The hardest, I think, is for... Artists.

[01:15:27] Way easier with strangers. I mean, I think for me, like, I can talk about all kinds of things with strangers. My mother were here? She is. And I have to give credit. Like, are you kidding me? A lot of people here know our backstory that Kathy has done so well with all of this, and I appreciate it. It's made a world of difference in the healing. We're part of the Kathy. Do you call her Kathy or mom? Both. I like that. Yeah. She's been very open to all of that, and she's been very good. I just wish I was the smart might one. Hey.

[01:15:55] But you're still open to learning is the thing. You're not being closed might. I don't think there's many people in the world who don't feel the way you feel, probably, in terms of the past and like... But who knows? So thanks for being here, guys. I had one more question. Oh, he has one more question, though. I can't sit still very much. One more, one more, one more. Just move on. You can move around. Okay, stop. The reason I ask this question is because I'm trying to gauge if you want to be alive or not. Things that might get in the way, understandable things are taken out. Do you actually want to be on Earth or not?

[01:16:24] So the pink and purple pill is if I give you a pill and you take it, you go to sleep, you don't wake up, there's no pain, and nobody knows the suicide. Those are the things that stop people who want to be dead. I know for some that might seem especially dark. I just want to gauge if you want to be on the Earth or not. I don't have any judgments around it. So I don't remember what you said a few months ago when we talked. So remember, people take it. It was always to be alive, mine. And so that's where it was. Like, I just wanted to feel better, and I was in a place that I didn't think it was possible. Right.

[01:16:54] So always to be here. You wouldn't take it. So I wouldn't just go to sleep. So you stay alive. I would stay alive. Mm-hmm. I guess I could ask this question to people at any points in their life, but it makes the most sense to do it today, right now. I literally have this. I don't really have it, but what would you do with it? Today? I'm glad you're asking that today. You can answer both if you want. Yeah. My only desire is to live now and as long as I possibly can.

[01:17:19] I have some ground to make up because of things that I've been exposed to by choice and by other factors, but my family and my kids want to be here as long as I can. But that's more new. I'm very happy that it's new. But, yeah. We got things to change around here. We got to keep going. Dude, that's right. That's right. Like, you know, I got things to do. Hands of the city. Shawnee. Yeah. You guys are great. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks, everybody. Thank you, guys.

[01:17:48] Just a couple of announcements. There's three ways I want. You can do one thing, and that is if you want to get involved in any way. What I mean by that is I'm mostly a one-person show. What's new on Instagram? Follow him. That's right. I'm trying to- Wait, wait, wait. I forget social media, but if there's any way you might know somebody who knows somebody, you might want to say, hey, I can do some work. Whatever. Just, I'm here for a little while. I'll be here for 30 more minutes.

[01:18:15] In the front, QR code, zap it, tax-deductible donation. You know, I speed it out the way. Scan it if you want to do it, and then deal with your accountant, and they can help you do the tax. I don't know about that, but it works. That helps a lot because I'm doing this tour thing. We have some projects that, you know. She's bringing them out. I found your Instagram. Why does my Instagram have music? Because it's from my Instagram.

[01:18:44] Wait, you're putting music on stuff back? It's a branding issue. Money aside, the other thing that would be helpful is I'm gathering footage, some of it's audio when I can, some of it's video, and I'm trying to gather as much as I can so at the end of this we make some kind of film. What would help me, only if you want to, is in addition to you being here, this is actually super helpful, and it's great.

[01:19:11] One minute, me and you, video, what's your name? Why'd you come here? What's your connect? Just three basic questions. If you want to do that, we'll find some little nice backdrop. It'll take a minute. So if you want to do that, that would be great. We're ending a little early, so it's before eight. That's all I got. Thank you so much, Kansas. As always, thanks so much for listening and all of your support. Special thanks to past guest Jillian for speaking with me and for helping me find

[01:19:39] the location, the venue, Seven Stories Bookstore, and to Matt, a new guest. Thanks to you both. I appreciate you talking, and of course, to our audience, I thank you as well. If you are a suicide attempt survivor or ideator and you'd like to talk, please reach out. Hello at suicidenoted.com. And remember, there is a Spotify poll every week, or at least once a week, and I'd love to hear your thoughts on that particular question. Rating us on Apple also helps, five stars especially.

[01:20:08] So if you'd be so kind as to do one or both of those, well, I thank you very much for that. And that is all from this week's episode in Kansas. Stay strong. Do the best you can. I will talk to you soon. Anderson Applause...