Madeline in Texas

[00:00:00] Yeah, I wanted to kill myself and this is why. And for all of us to just like be there together to be able to say these things without worrying like that somebody was going to call 911 and end up in the ER or something. Like I can't I can't say enough about how lucky I felt to be there.

[00:00:36] Hey there, my name is Sean and this is Suicide Noted. On this podcast, I talk with suicide attempt survivors and ideators so that we can hear their stories. Every year around the world, millions of people try to take their own lives and we almost never talk about it. We certainly don't talk about it enough. And when we do talk about it, when we engage with people in pain, we're not very good at it. Most of us are quite bad at it. That's a problem.

[00:01:03] And so one of my goals with this podcast is to have more conversations and hopefully better conversations with survivors in large part to help more people in more places hopefully feel a little less shitty and a little less alone. Now, if you're one of those people, an attempt survivor, an ideator, however you define that and you want to talk, I'd love to talk with you. Please reach out. Hello at suicidenoted.com. It's real simple.

[00:01:27] Check out our weekly Spotify poll. I'd love your thoughts on that. You can give us a rating and a review on Apple. That helps. Be nice, please, if you think we deserve the kind words. And of course, you can learn more about this podcast in several places, including suicidenoted.com.

[00:01:44] We are fiscally sponsored. We do lovingly accept donations. They are tax deductible. Finally, we are talking about suicide here on this podcast. My guests and I do not hold back. I know it may not be a good fit for everybody. So take that into account before you listen or as you listen. But I do hope you listen because there is so much to learn. Today, I am talking with Madeline. Madeline lives in Texas and she is a suicide attempt survivor. Hey, Madeline.

[00:02:14] Hey, Sean. How are you? I'm okay. How are you doing? I'm good. Do you live in the state of Texas? I do, yeah. Do you like it there? Yes and no. I live in Austin, which is very different from the rest of Texas, but it's been changing a lot in the past couple of years. I feel like ever since Elon Musk and Joe Rogan moved in, the culture has been really changing. More of a thumbs down than a thumbs up? Yes. Yeah. Thanks for doing this with me and talking. I appreciate it. Yeah, same to you.

[00:02:42] So we found each other through your publicist. Yes. Your publicist, part of his or her job is to get you in front of people so you could share stuff because you're – are you an author? Yes. How many books have you written? So this is actually my first one. My first book is coming out in just about a month and it is a memoir and it's a memoir about surviving a suicide attempt. I think you found the right place. Yeah.

[00:03:09] My feelings won't be heard. Have you heard any of this – have you heard this podcast at all? Yes. Okay. Do you know that I am a memoir title master? Yeah. I've been – that's been one of the things that's been pretty fun about listening. But I can't help you because your book is done. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Share with us the title. Title is Undead and then the subtitle is A Memoir of My Suicide. Because it's a memoir, you will be sharing some stuff, I'm sure, that is in a book with me and there by the audience. Undead. Cool.

[00:03:37] I wouldn't have come up with that. It's better than I could do. So did you do that or did someone help you? I did that. I'm an academic. I'm a professor. And my sort of background, my academic background is a little bit funny. It's very interdisciplinary. I do a lot with monsters. I think about monsters a lot. And so when I was thinking about, you know, what comes back after dying, right? It's the undead, the monsters, the vampires, the ghosts. And so that's – that was how I connected that.

[00:04:07] Undead. Are you from Texas? No. So I actually grew up in Iowa. Basically got out of there as soon as I possibly could. What's wrong with Iowa? Where to begin? Right. Like I think Iowa is really different if you grow up there versus if you move there. I want to know why you were compelled to write a book. Because I know for most human beings, that is not an easy thing to do.

[00:04:27] Well, you know, I've been writing for a long time. I had gone to an MFA program after I had tried to kill myself. And I went with the goal of figuring out how to write about it. I started as a poet, but very quickly decided that that was actually not the way to go about it. And I needed to be more direct about what happened and what I thought about it. And so, yeah, I ended up writing a memoir about it.

[00:04:56] Did you finish that program? I did. And did it help you to find the words and to find the structure and to find whatever you need to find to write a book, a memoir? Yes and no. It mostly just gave me the time to work on it. Right. So I was in my MFA program when COVID happened. So most of my time was during COVID. So that meant I had a very different experience than most folks.

[00:05:20] But so, right, it really was just like giving me the time to work on it and to write and just not focus on anything else. Like it's just it's so personal and it's about a suicide and it's like 98 percent is actually rewriting. Right. That's what writing is really is just like editing. And so to have the patience and the wherewithal, if you've heard the podcast, I'm not one to really do a lot of you're so amazing. Yeah. But people do write about their lives. It's got to be a pretty decent book if you have a publicist.

[00:05:50] I know how the world works. If it's a sucky book, unless you were famous already. So I know it's a pretty good book. I'm sure it's a good read. I'm sure you had to spend a lot of time thinking about a lot of things, including your childhood. So good segue to that. Tell me a little bit about growing up with the understanding of how it relates to where we're heading in this conversation. Yeah. So I grew up in a fairly small town in Iowa, not the smallest, but not big. I have to be pretty careful about how I talk about my family.

[00:06:17] And so I try to just be careful because there are some members of my family that are very private that I don't want to share a ton about. And right, like people I write about in the book that I try really hard to sort of talk about how they relate to things, but then try to leave them out as much as possible. You know, smallish town in Iowa, pretty isolated from the rest of the world. Grew up in a very chaotic household. When bad things happened, it was sort of the understanding that you don't talk about this outside the house, right?

[00:06:46] Like the bad things that happen stay in the house because, you know, shameful to talk about it or, you know, it's a small town. People talk so best to not give people ammunition. In a town like that where there weren't really social services, where people weren't talking about mental health. As an example, at one point, I was really considering trying to emancipate myself, but didn't have the financial resources for it. Also, like I personally wouldn't have been able to support myself in this small town. Didn't have a way out of it.

[00:07:15] Couldn't like because I didn't have a car. I was sort of trapped in this small town. There weren't buses. There's no transportation. If I had gone in front of a judge, right? Like they knew my family and they didn't know the sort of bad parts of my family. So they would have been like, well, you're a teenager. You're an ahormonal teenager. We're not going to do this. When you talk about bad things, the bad things stay in the house. What are you referring to? Oh, so just like as an example.

[00:07:45] And this is this is the thing that I write about most directly in the book. So this is what I feel most comfortable talking about directly. So my dad is a pastor. Also has or had at least a really violent temper. So I have an older brother and an older sister. And I'm the youngest. And so when my brother was a teen, when he started sort of acting out, you know, he started doing drugs, drinking, all that stuff.

[00:08:10] And my dad would just explode at him, like track him around town, drag him out of like go to his friend's house, physically drag him out of his friend's house. Because, you know, my dad was like, you know, while you live in my house, you will behave. You'll follow my rules and there will be no drugs, no drinking. My parents got divorced. Eventually, my brother moved out to live with my mom. And then it was just my sister and I. My sister, as she was a teen, also started acting out. And then his temper turned to her.

[00:08:39] And then she moved out to live with my mom. And then it was just me. And then it was sort of my turn. Again, this is like it gets a little bit tricky. And this is one of the things I tried to write about because, you know, while he never hit me, you know, he would get in my face and scream in my face. And then there were times when, like, he would sort of shove me and I would end up on the ground. And so in my head, I was like, well, this isn't really physical abuse. Like, I can't tell someone this is abuse, but it's something. Sounds scary.

[00:09:09] Yeah, it was terrifying. Like you said earlier, like, what are you going to do? Where are you going to go? Who are you going to talk to? Small town Iowa. Yeah, that's how many years were you living where the siblings were out and it was just you and him? It was about four years. I bet that takes a nice chunk of your book. Yeah. That must have been really hard, too. I don't usually get, like, super meta, but I've had some authors and speakers on, so it just is an interesting and challenging thing, I would imagine, too.

[00:09:33] It's from truth, but writing is creation and you literally could, in an infinite choice, an infinite number of choices of how to present and word choice. Anyway, I don't want to spend too much time on that because this is not the how to write a memoir in a really good way. But it's still, are you in your 30s? Yes. I'm just trying to put the pieces together. How do you, so you finish high school? Mm-hmm. I know you go to college because we've already talked about an MFA program, so do you get the hell out of Dodge immediately? Yes.

[00:10:01] Where do you go after high school? So I went to a college in Portland, Oregon. I went to Reed College. Yeah, basically as soon as I left, I promised myself I was never living in Iowa again. Have you kept that promise? Yes. Well, for the most part. There was a time period where I had to go back and actually live with my mom for about six months, but I don't know if I count that. Maybe I should count that, but I don't really know. I think technically you have to count it, but I don't know. How old were you for when you tried to end your life?

[00:10:31] I was 26. Do you remember the first time you thought, and I don't necessarily mean a moment in time, though it could be, I'm not sure I want to be alive anymore? I actually, I don't remember a specific moment, but I remember for a very long time, just sort of somewhere in my mind thinking like, well, I'm probably going to kill myself someday. When does that start? How old are you? I don't know.

[00:11:00] Sometime in high school, but I don't know exactly when. And part of that, right, so the college I went to is very expensive. My family didn't have money. So even when I was going to college, I was like, well, I'm going to be in a lot of student debt, but I'll be dead before I have to pay it off anyway. So it doesn't matter. Did you ever share that with anyone? Like that idea of like, I'm not making it here. Like you never talked about it. No. Because I wonder how many people feel that way.

[00:11:26] And, you know, there are some people that feel that way, but just not a super common thing to bring up at dinner. Yeah. Or at like a little party with your friends at Reed College. You're probably not. It's possible, though. It just didn't happen. No, I don't think so. So because like, how does that change choices that you make in your life when you're thinking, yeah, I mean, I'm not going to make it to 30. So screw it. Why don't I do this or that? Or do you finish school there? I did. Okay. Big debt. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Still, I'm going to be paying it off for my life.

[00:11:55] Again, like I'm going to be paying it off for the rest of my life, but I love Reed. It was like a really amazing experience for me and it was what I needed. Perfect. Yeah. After Reed, I actually got a Fulbright and I lived in Azerbaijan for a year. I dare anybody right now to sort of spell that country. I know you can do it, Madeline, but most people cannot. Azerbaijan, yes. You know, I have been very good at getting work in academic circles, but outside of that, I've always really struggled.

[00:12:26] So after that, I had a really hard time finding a decent job, which is why I ended up having to go back to Iowa and living with my mom for a little bit. But, well, I just, I got a job in a restaurant and was just trying to figure out what to do after that, which then, you know, eventually led me to my first graduate school program. The first time I went to Harvard Divinity School, I have a master's in theology. That is where I was when I tried to call myself. Wow. Oh, that is ironic.

[00:12:55] Is it? A little bit. Interesting. Wow. Wow. What were you doing in Azerbaijan? So I was actually teaching. I was teaching at English in a university. Quick stop in Iowa, Pittstock. Harvard, not a bad school. Not a bad school. And you went into Divinity School, so you were studying. People who go there, what's typically the career path? It's all over. You know, some people go to be pastors. They go to school for social work. Some people become activists in one way or another.

[00:13:23] A lot of folks use it as a stepping stone to go into a PhD program. Why did you go there? I thought I was going to do a PhD. I went in there thinking, I'm going to get my master's. I was thinking I was going to do a PhD in Slavic studies and do something with religion in the post-Soviet Union. But when I got to Harvard, it was a bad time. It was a real bad time. I decided, you know what, fuck that. I'm not doing that to myself. Are you a person of faith? No, not at all.

[00:13:52] Okay, this is interesting. I know you said when you were a teenager, you had these thoughts that started popping up, just like you're not going to be around forever. Really interesting though, right? So you go to Oregon, and then you go to Azerbaijan, and then boom, Iowa. Now you're in Massachusetts Divinity School. And so in your mid-20s, I believe, I know you've already shared that your attempt was when you were 26. When did things start to get really bad? Things started getting bad in like the winter of 2016.

[00:14:19] It was really in 2017 that things started getting really bad. I tried to kill myself in April of 2018, and that had been after a year and change of things really adding up and building. Are you ideating? Yeah. Yeah. And even that was like a gradual buildup to ideating.

[00:14:41] Like I started getting really depressed, and then it was probably in the summer of 2017 that I first started ideating. And then, you know, I felt like I couldn't talk to anybody about it because I was like, in my head, I was like, if I say this out loud, they're going to institutionalize me immediately. So I can't tell anybody. The way you frame that, it sounded as if you think you were wrong or not wrong, but like you're inaccurate.

[00:15:05] But I think you're rather accurate that you would have had a pretty good chance of being put into a hospital if you had voiced some of those things. Yeah. It depends on the timing and the person and how you frame it. Sure. So you kept it quiet? I kept it quiet. Kept trying to do the things that everybody said you're supposed to do, right? So I started going to therapy. So right at the time, I was on MassHealth, which is the program basically like if you can't afford health care, it's the state-sponsored health care in Massachusetts.

[00:15:35] And I got free therapy through that. It was like a training program. So I got free therapy by somebody in their last year of their training to be a therapist. So I got free therapy through them. And then, you know, I had started medication. I had started antidepressants. And I kept telling myself like, OK, I'm doing the things I'm supposed to do. But then things just kept getting progressively worse. I sort of didn't really understand what was going on. I would just like start weeping and not be able to stop.

[00:16:03] And I would be like weeping in public and just thinking like the thought pattern that I couldn't get myself out of was there is something wrong with me. There's only one way to solve what is wrong with me, right? Like there's only one way out of this situation, which was to kill myself. I couldn't think of another way that any of it got better. At the time, I was also in a fairly tumultuous romantic relationship, which also was sort of not a catalyst for a lot of this.

[00:16:33] But I kept going to this person for comfort. But then like we would sort of break up, get back together. And this person was always sort of like, well, once you are better, then we can date. But I can't date you until you're better. But then, you know, would invite me over to spend the night and all that sort of thing. And so that was also the backdrop for a lot of this. And so I had that really volatile relationship. And then I was also unable to maintain friendships.

[00:17:03] Like I was a shitty friend in the midst of all of this, right? Like I'm not doing what I'm emotionally really struggling, but also thinking like, OK, there's something wrong with me that makes it really difficult for people to get close to me. And maybe I'm not a person that is worth it to be close to because I make all these problems because I'm crying all the time. And I'm asking for so much support. Surely there is just something wrong with me. And did you share that with anybody? Did you talk about it? Or was it all inside? Because you had a therapist, but it doesn't mean you're sharing that much with this person.

[00:17:33] I don't think I actually did share that with anybody. It would be like a fly in the wall with those therapy sessions. It's like, here's your reality. And then you walk into this office and then it's like, here's how I'm going to present. Probably rather common. And you're saying it's building. Are you aware that it's building? Are you aware that it's getting closer? Does it feel like there's this imminent thing that's going to happen? Yeah, for sure. I remember very distinctly there was a day. This was in fall of 2017.

[00:18:03] There was a day where I was sitting in class. And all of a sudden it hits me. If I go home from class today, I am going to try to kill myself. That's just going to happen. And so it was after class that day. I just immediately went to the crisis mental health center on campus. Because I was like, it's this or I'm going to try to kill myself. That's it. That kind of moment, did you think about method? Well, this is the thing, right?

[00:18:31] Like I had, even for months up to that point, part of, for me, part of ideating was almost like daydreaming about different methods and how I would do it. And, you know, I really wanted to make sure I did it in a way where like my housemates would not find me. Right. And I'm like how to plan it. So like, you know, I call 911 right before I do it. So the cops get there, but it's too late for them to do anything. But they get there to find my body. So nobody else has to.

[00:18:58] So, yeah, I had multiple different ideas of how I wanted to do it. If I had asked you then, so this would have been the fall of 2017, but it could probably also, we could go all the way up till April of 2018, perhaps after. You'd be alive 10 years later or whatever it is, eight years later, like you, would you be like, no fucking chance? Yeah, for sure. Like zero chance you're correct in saying that. Yeah. So it was a matter of time. Yeah.

[00:19:24] So how do you get from the fall of 2017 where you are clearly actively suicidal? That's many months until April 2018. So I know it's going to be probably hard to perhaps find the right words, but what are those months like? In short, they were really bad, right? But it was like, I mean, it felt like I was constantly trying to lie to myself, right? Like I would go home and in private feel all the panic and the despair.

[00:19:47] And then I would be like, okay, but I have to, I'm going to go, I'm going to prove to myself that like I actually can do this. Yeah. It felt like almost leading a double life, but then doing it quite poorly. Because I think a lot of people could tell that I was really struggling. Do you remember anybody actively reaching out to you and being like, Madeline, look, I can tell. We got to talk. Whatever people do when they try to help. No, not really. The closest thing would have been the person I was in the relationship with.

[00:20:16] After we officially finally broke up, like I felt like there was less risk and voicing to them that I was thinking about suicide. And there was a day when they said, my therapist said that if you start talking like this, I need to immediately call 911. And then, you know, I begged them not to because I was like, they can't, like, I can't go to the hospital. Who's going to pay for that? Like, I can't afford that. You can't. That was your first. Isn't that interesting? That's your first thought. Yeah.

[00:20:44] I don't know the law and all, but this person's therapist says because you said these things about suicide to them. That's a weird fucking triangle right there. It's very off about that that I don't like. There will be people that would push back and say that's the right thing to do. That's how you help people not kill themselves. That call was not made, I assume. No, it was not. That call was not made. That call was not made.

[00:21:08] Also, like, the way you framed it and the way you talked about yourself and relationships and friendships or lack thereof, like, it doesn't sound like you were the kind of person that I think you, I'm guessing here, tell me if I'm wrong, like, you probably made it clear. I don't want to talk about this with you. I'm not open to, you're not giving out those vibes. Well, that's the thing. Like, I think it was clear that something was going on with me, but I, like, publicly adopted a pretty strong or at least tried to adopt a persona of gallows humor.

[00:21:35] You know, somebody, we'd run into somebody or I would run into somebody and they'd be like, Madeline, how are you? And I'd be like, oh, I'm doing really bad. Laugh about it. And they'd be like, what? And I was like, no, no, no, it's fine. Like, oh, you know, we're all doing bad. It's fine. And, like, laugh about it. Oh, the human species is fascinating. On the one hand, I think people could very clearly see that something was up. But I think I presented in such a way that they were like, I don't know. I don't know what to do about this. I don't know.

[00:22:01] Are you able to be in school and do the papers and whatever is involved at Harvard Divinity School? Yeah, actually. Yeah, I mean, academically, I was doing really well. And this is something that I'm actually quite proud of myself for. So when I finally did attempt, it was the last week of class before I was supposed to graduate. And so I actually wrote all my final papers while I was in the hospital. That was after the attempt? That was after the attempt.

[00:22:32] Your final papers at a master's from Harvard were written in a bed or a table somewhere in a psych unit or mental hospital. So I'm wondering about, of course, the attempt itself. You only have one attempt? Is that right? No. Yes, with a caveat. Oh, wait. We're going to talk about the caveat. I assume the caveat comes after. Actually, before. Well, tell me about the caveat. And then I want to hear a little bit more about the actual attempt, if you would.

[00:22:58] So there was a moment and there's some weird parallels here, I think. There was a moment my senior year of college where I was at a party. I was really drunk. Got on a fight with a friend and felt very much like, cool. I fucked this up so bad I can't fix it. And, like, I'm about to graduate and leave this, like, beautiful place that I found. And so that night when I went home, I had this, like, not quite a trench coat, but something like it. Like a pea coat, whatever.

[00:23:27] And I took off the belt and I, like, you know, tied it around my throat. Sort of tried to attach it to the light fixture. But, you know, was drunk and sort of half-heartedly did it. But, you know, I woke up in the morning with the belt still tied around my throat. Nobody saw. Nobody saw. And I didn't tell. I did not tell anyone. You think that the booze was part of the reason? For sure the booze was part of it. And that actually sort of came out of nowhere at the time.

[00:23:55] Like, I hadn't been ideating or, like, actively ideating. It was part of what freaked me out so much about it was that it did feel like it sort of came out of nowhere. And so I think that was connected back to that idea that I've had since I was young of, like, oh, eventually I am just going to kill myself at some point. And that moment in college, I was like, well, fuck. I guess maybe here it comes. I want to ask you about the attempt, but I want to ask you about something today. Okay. Do you still think it's inevitable that you're going to kill yourself? No, not at all, actually. Wow. Okay.

[00:24:25] I kind of wasn't expecting that, but cool. Back in the day, though, there was the ideating and something changes where you go from being, let's say, suicidal to this is now I'm going to, like, open it up and say, tell me about that day or that week and however you want. I'm trying to think about that week in particular. Because in some ways, there wasn't actually anything that special or unique happening that week, right?

[00:24:49] Like, it was the same sort of, yeah, like, I don't know exactly how to describe it besides, it was almost like it wasn't just anxiety. There was, like, a constant, I guess maybe anxiety, constant sort of tension that I felt in my body all the time. I had started sort of off and on self-harming in the autumn of 2017, but wasn't actively doing that around the time of my attempt.

[00:25:16] And so, right, in some ways that it was sort of like a week like any other that semester where, you know, I was crying a lot. I felt really anxious. And again, there are some really interesting weird parallels with what happened when I was in college because the night that I attempted, I also got in a fight with a friend at a party. This was somebody I had been friends with for a lot of the master's program, and then she sort of withdrew from my life.

[00:25:43] And we were at this party, and, you know, this was a dumb thing for me to do to try to have this conversation at a party. But I was like, hey, like, I feel like you sort of abandoned me. Like, you knew, you can see I'm struggling, and you don't want to talk to me anymore. And this girl was like, do you really want to talk about this now? Because we can. And she was like, you've been a really shitty friend to me. Like, you're a selfish friend. You don't ask how I'm doing. Like, you don't pay attention to blah, blah, blah. It's always about you.

[00:26:11] And in that moment, I was like, well, fuck, she's right. Like, I have been a shitty friend to her. Like, I have nothing to say to that. And then I just started to have a full-on panic attack. And in a way that I had never experienced before. Like, I physically couldn't breathe. And I found myself struggling for breath. And, like, I will never forget this because I was gasping and making these almost, like, inhuman noises. Like, I try to describe it like a frog, right?

[00:26:41] Like, just like, I almost don't want to try to do this on the podcast to replicate it. But I was making these, like, horrible noises, just, like, trying to breathe and get air into my lungs. And this woman at the party was like, she was like, I don't know what the fuck's wrong with you, but I can't deal with this right now. And so she left. We were in a room by ourselves. She, like, left to join the rest of the party. And so I just was there by myself, really just panicking.

[00:27:11] And then it was in that moment where I was like, well, fuck. She's right. I am the problem. Like, there's only one way to solve this. And I'm just gonna, I'm gonna do it. I walked home from the party. I didn't really, I didn't say goodbye to anybody at the party. I left. I walked home. I actually called my ex on the walk home. And in my mind, I was like, this is, I'm gonna, I'm just, I need to say goodbye. And I think they, I think my ex was actually on a date when I called. And they were like, oh, I can't talk right now. Are you okay?

[00:27:40] And I was like, yeah, actually, I'm doing, I'm doing really good. I just wanted to, to call. And so I got home. And when I had decided, like, when I had made the definitive choice, like, I'm gonna go home and kill myself, I felt this just overwhelming peace. I, I know people maybe don't think about it this way, but I felt deep in my gut. I was like, okay, things are actually gonna be okay. Like, this is gonna make things okay.

[00:28:09] And so I got home and I, you know, I wasn't crying. I didn't feel upset. I just was like, this is how I fix things. Um, and yeah, swallowed a shit ton of pills. Um, wrote, I wrote this little, uh, you know, all the, all of the plans that I had about calling the police, about like making sure nobody else found me. Didn't think about any of it. Um, but right before I passed out, I was like, oh shit, like I should have some sort of will or something.

[00:28:36] And so I grabbed a pen and wrote, uh, give all my money to my mother. And then, yeah, passed out. Um, my, I had two housemates at the time and they were both out of town. Um, so it was just me. God, I don't know. This, this was probably around like 11 p.m. Or actually, I don't know what time this would have been. Um, but took a shit ton of pills, including like a bunch of Ambien. It was out. And nobody found me for almost 24 hours. And I was just like completely out the whole time. Um, yeah.

[00:29:04] And then like when they did find me finally, they were like, well, it's too late for us to even pump her stomach. Like, we're just going to see what the fuck happens. Wait, like, so when you say, so this is like medical people found you. Well, so actually again, it like, it was actually my ex, um, who had texted me in the morning to be like, Hey, sorry, I couldn't talk. Like, are you doing okay? And when I didn't respond all day, they were like, well shit, she'd been struggling. What if?

[00:29:33] Um, and so they tried to call me. I didn't answer. And they came across town, pounded on my door and somehow I woke up, but I was like, uh, I was totally out of it. Like I, I couldn't really walk. I couldn't talk. I just sort of like stumbled to the door and let them in and then like stumbled back to bed and like, didn't like, I had no idea what was going on. And I was so like, the drugs were really fucking with me. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Of course. Of course. So, so they, they called 911 or 911. Yeah.

[00:30:02] So people come and they, so they take you to the hospital, I assume. Yes. But they can't pump your stomach. It's too late. It's too late. Mm-hmm. So it's just what, cross fingers? Yeah. Mm-hmm. Did you want to stay alive at that point or did you want to die? I wanted to die for sure. I get, okay. So as it gets closer, it doesn't scare you into wanting to live. No. No, it really was like in my head, it was, it was such a comfort. Like finally, finally I was going to make things okay. By the time you got to the hospital, given that you had already gotten up and then you went

[00:30:30] back to bed, like you're not dying. Yeah. But is it painful? I would imagine it's physically painful. Oh, I mean, I was so out of it. I was so fucked up that like I physically didn't feel anything besides like just, I don't even know how to explain it. And how long were you in the hospital for? So I was overnight in the ER and then the next day they transferred me to an inpatient facility. How long were you there for in the inpatient? A little bit over a week. So not a super long time, but God, it was awful.

[00:31:00] And now not usually great. No, it was horrible. But you're able to write your papers there. Yeah. How is that? Like you have a laptop? I don't like give me the how does that work? So when I was in the ER, I texted some people that were sort of like the only friends that I really felt like I had left. And I texted them and was like, hey, I'm in the ER. Can you bring me some shit from my house? And so they brought me some school stuff.

[00:31:27] And in inpatient, I convinced the nurses somehow. I convinced the nurses like you have to let me do this. And they were like, OK, but you can only do this at the nurses station. So we can like be staring over your shoulder and making sure like we are seeing what you're doing. And yeah, I don't know. There was something something my brain was like, OK, well, if I didn't die, at least I'm going to fucking graduate no matter what. But so because usually they don't let you bring anything in. So you got that in there. OK, you're writing.

[00:31:57] Well, but right. Like they kept my laptop sort of locked away until unless I was sitting in a place where they could like literally be looking over my shoulders the whole time. Was there anything about that experience that was helpful? Truly nothing. So it's a place where it's hard to kill yourself. That's that's usually how that works. And what was the care like? Oh, horrible. None. None. I would say this is not hyperbole, like because then it comes up a lot on this podcast. And I want to be fair because sometimes people have decent experiences legitimately. OK, not for you.

[00:32:27] But right. I like this. Like I think so much depends on what institution you're sent to, you know, and there are really amazing institutions in Boston. Like McLean is there, which is this like, you know, the like really famous hospital. But I got sent to this real shitty little place that actually doesn't even exist anymore. And yeah, it was horrible. The only thing I would say that that sort of helped me was there was this one woman, you know, I don't know if she was a social. I don't know what the fuck her role was, but she told she kept telling me someone like

[00:32:56] you who is so depressed, like you don't you can't think straight. You don't know what's good for you. We can't let you out of here because you're just going to do it again. And I hated this bitch so much that I was like, well, fuck you. I am going to prove you wrong. And like that was that was probably the only thing that was helpful for me was gave me a lot of spite. And she was wrong. She was wrong. Because you did get out. You graduated. Yep.

[00:33:24] And I know that was about eight years ago because I'm good. And you now live in Texas and you have a book. You get out. How do you go from getting out of there after a week? You submit your papers. Get I just better? Probably not. Oh, my God. Absolutely not. So how do you what happens after that? Because I know eventually things do start to get better. I mean, it was a long time before things started to get better. Right.

[00:33:50] It wasn't honestly, it wasn't until years later that I would start to say I was like, quote unquote, better years later with a lot of pretty intense therapy with like an actual good therapist because, right, there's a lot of shit ones out there. So got out of the hospital. And then this is something that I feel extremely lucky about. They sent me to an outpatient program in Boston that I assumed was going to be awful. I assumed it was going to be the same shit. But it was actually incredible. It was a women's only space.

[00:34:19] And I was doing outpatient there for about two weeks. And it was just really, really amazing to be with other women who, you know, we had experienced such different things and we were going through so many different things. But just to be with other women who were really struggling and to be able to just say out loud, yeah, I wanted to kill myself. And this is why. And I tried. And this is why. And for all of us to just like be there together to be able to say these things without worrying

[00:34:44] that we were going to end up like that somebody was going to call 911 and end up in the ER or something like that, that space was like, I can't I can't say enough about how lucky I felt to be there. And because I was on MassHealth, because I was on the Massachusetts Medicaid program, I didn't like they paid for all of it. Fucking incredible. Yeah, that was really what set me sort of on the path. Like, that's that's what started me on the path to being sort of OK.

[00:35:12] But then when that program ended, I was kind of fucked up because then I was like, well, I can't talk to anybody about this. Like outside of that program, how the fuck am I going to tell somebody like, oh, yeah, the last like you didn't see me the last week of class because I tried to off myself. Like it's not really something that you can bring up in conversation. Took a long time and a lot of work to get to where I am today. Again, just like a lot of intense therapy. And, you know, they always say like progress isn't linear.

[00:35:39] And there were times where like like I never got actively suicidal again. But I was there were times where I was sort of passively suicidal and times when I would still ideate. At first, it took a long time to convince myself that it was OK that I didn't die, because in some ways I felt really guilty that I hadn't managed to kill myself and that I had really failed at something that had been supposed to happen. So it took a while.

[00:36:06] It took a long time to convince myself that it was OK that I was still alive. And then it took a long time to fully get rid of all of the ideation. Was that mostly Massachusetts? Did you just stick around there? No, I left pretty quick. I felt really strongly like I needed to get out of Boston. Like I needed to really get away from this ex of mine. Right. So this ex had had come and visit me. They visited me in the hospital a lot.

[00:36:35] And then when I got out of the hospital, they just like fully disappeared. And it was like they just sort of vanished. And I didn't understand why. When I was moving, I had a conversation with them, like what happened? And they they were like, well, and that when all that was happening, I had such strong feelings of love and affection for you that I had to work through those. And in my head, I was like, I can't I can't keep having this back and forth like I can't I need to just like fully get away from this person, which was a huge motivating factor for leaving.

[00:37:03] So, yeah, I left pretty quick after. Didn't really know anything about Austin. Didn't know anybody down here. I just happened to sort of know somebody. I had an acquaintance from college who had a room open in her house. And I was like, you know what? Fuck it. I guess I'm going to Austin. The fact that Boston and Austin rhyme had nothing to do with it. It actually didn't. I thought I thought it was so silly. So you've been in Austin for a little while now. Yeah. Staying with a friend, nonlinear, good therapy, medication. Yeah.

[00:37:33] Do you get a diagnosis that you think is accurate? Yeah, I did. So, yeah, I mean, I was diagnosed with PTSD, which, yeah, I think is super accurate. And then, yeah, I mean, it took some trying of different medications, but we finally did get me on the right one. And it helps so much. See, a lot of this is chemical. Yeah. I mean, we're just a chemical stew and some people are just unlucky. Mm-hmm. It took a long time to find the right one, right? Like, turns out the stuff I'd been taking in graduate school wasn't doing anything for me.

[00:38:03] You know, at the time, I didn't think to switch to anything else. Yeah. And also, there's, like, a good number of things you've said that I'm like that, too. Mm-hmm. And so when you don't have a lot of people in your life, you just keep doing what you're doing usually. Like, you don't have a trusted core of people who would be like, let's, like, we're going to gather together and, like, help you figure out this med situation as long as it takes. Mm-hmm. You know what he's just, like, trying to figure, it's like, oh, God. So in Texas, ultimately, you find medication that I imagine you're still on. Yes. Mm-hmm. That helps.

[00:38:34] Mm-hmm. It helps so much. Yeah, I would get prolonged intense bouts of depression, and it has really, really helped with that. Like, I still sometimes experience something like it, but the lows are a lot less low, and they don't last the way that they used to. At what point did you say I want to write a book? Honestly, pretty soon after the attempt. I've been a big reader ever since I can remember, and so after I tried to kill myself, one of the first things I did was to be,

[00:39:02] like, I need to find the story of somebody else who survived this. Like, I need to hear what somebody else went through. I need to understand what the fuck I'm supposed to do now. And at the time, I couldn't find anything. Like, there are some books, but I, and I found some things, right? Like, I read, like, Girl Interrupted, but there was just something about it. I was like, but this doesn't feel like how it felt for me. And I just, I felt like I couldn't find anything. And so I just started writing it myself.

[00:39:30] A huge motivating factor for me writing the book was, like, I'm trying to write the book that I needed at the time. And, like, maybe somebody else who needs something like it, let somebody know that they're not alone. Because I felt really, like, I felt like an alien, truly. Like, I felt like I was moving through the world being like, I don't know how to be a human anymore. And I don't know who to talk to. And I don't know. I felt really strange in the months after I tried to kill myself. And I was like, I can't talk.

[00:39:59] Like, I was like, I don't know. How long does it take to feel normal again? Do you feel normal now? Yeah, actually, I do. I actually don't think anybody's normal, but, you know. Less abnormal, perhaps. Or when do things start to turn where, like, there are more good days than bad days? How long ago was that? And this is really hard, because, right, like, I would go through periods, right? Like, I would have long periods where things were fine, and then go through periods where it sort of went back.

[00:40:28] So I don't know if there ever was a really definitive turning point. Like, I wish I could point to a moment and say that was it. It makes for a better movie, maybe, but it's not right. And you said it's not linear, and that's probably pretty common. How long does it take you to write the book? So the book, actually, I wrote in about two years. How did you not quit? I know some people take 10 years, but two years, not two months, two years. Well, but there's, you gotta remember this is COVID. So not a whole lot to do outside that. And... Like, and you're writing, like, hours a day? Yeah. How long is the book?

[00:40:57] It's about, I think, like, 280 pages. Writing a book is hard. I don't know. I felt like I had a lot of things I wanted to say. I know the book is done, because I know that you are on a podcast, and presumably other podcasts and other media, because you want to let people know about the book. But in your mind, is it done? Yeah. Okay. So, like, if I gave you an opportunity to make some edits, you'd be like, no, I'm good. Well, I... I mean, I'm a perfectionist, so I would totally go back and... But it would just be, like, on the sentence level.

[00:41:27] Like, I don't like the way the sentence sounds anymore. I want to change it. But all the ideas, I wouldn't make any major changes. Well, that must feel good. It does. It does. It's a weird feeling. I don't know. When was it officially done? Um, so we turned in the final, final manuscript. God, I want to say in, like, September or October. That's when, you know, went to the, like, typesetter and all that stuff. The typesetter? I know nothing about the world of, like, how this works. Right now, the book is out. So it comes out, actually, in just about a month. April 28th.

[00:41:56] Where does it come out? So it's through a publishing house called Beacon Press. And yeah, it's going to be available, like, you can buy it at your local bookstore. Right, because Beacon's a pretty big publisher. Yeah. Okay. I'm curious, did you just go through the normal process of pitching where they take, like, one in every 25,000 people and, but they chose you? Well, so first, I got an agent first. That's still hard to get. Yeah. Yeah. And also, right, like, I feel, it's sort of this twin feeling of, like, I feel really proud of my book.

[00:42:25] And I think it is a really, really good book. And also, I'm very lucky because, you know, I am just a random person. I'm not a celebrity who wrote sort of an artsy book about suicide. And somebody decided to take it on that they, like, that they wanted to get this out into the world. So I was lucky to find my agent. And then, you know, we sold it to my editor. Yeah. So a team of women who all had bad times in Boston. And you will find their name somewhere in the back of the book. Yeah. Probably, because that's how it works.

[00:42:55] Mm-hmm. I mean, this is not a video thing, so people won't see it, but Sean wants to see it. So it's kind of a grayish and then undead written in a white. And what is that font? I have no idea. I like it. And then a memoir of my suicide cannot be more straightforward than that. Yeah, right. And then your name, Marilyn Rush, on the bottom. Okay. And there are some trees, what would we call them? What are the branches, trees? I call them my fucked up little sticks. My fucked up little sticks.

[00:43:25] So, and why'd you make that choice? Well, so in the book, I write about, so in Dante's Inferno, right, there are all the different circles of hell. The 13th circle is the woods of the suicides. So in Dante's writing, if a person kills themselves, they are trapped in a sort of gnarled broken tree for all of eternity. And they're picked up by harpies constantly. And when Christ comes back to judge everybody, they are just stuck there forever, right?

[00:43:54] Like they don't get judged as good or bad. They don't get taken into heaven. They are just trapped forever as these fucked up trees. And so, yeah, I have an epigraph from Dante at the beginning of the book. And I talk about that a lot. Like those of us who people think are cast out and unsavable and yeah, just fucked up little trees. What's on the, can I see the back of the book? So this is the, this is just the proof. This isn't the final copy.

[00:44:21] So the back of the book right now is just white because this is the version that they would send to people who are going to review it. Okay. I'm so curious. I'm going to, I want you to like, I was like, read the first paragraph, read the last paragraph, but I know you can't because you can't give it away. I mean, I can't. There's actually the first, the first chapter has actually already been published. Published in a chapter, but not a book? Mm-hmm. Yeah. So it's, this started out as an essay. The essay got selected for publication somewhere. So the, the, the, basically the first chapter is already out on the internet.

[00:44:51] Oh, well, how do people find that? Um, so if you Google my name, Madeline Vosch, Undead, um, and then the publication is called Plowshares, P-L-O-U-G-H-S-H-A-R-E-S. I can't spell. We're in your public now, Madeline. People know you don't write a book about suicide. Now people know about it. They sure do. From nobody knowing about it to a whole lot of people who know about it or will know about it. Mm-hmm.

[00:45:19] And that includes family, friends, like everybody. Mm-hmm. Yep. Mostly supportive? Um, no. Ah. No. I mean, that's part of why I have to be a little bit careful of how I talk about family because there are people who don't want anything about them shared. And I want to be really respectful of that. Um, because even though like I want to share this story that I want to respect that some people don't want shitty parts of their lives made public.

[00:45:46] That's always a tricky thing with writing about yourself and including other people. So many people I've talked to for this podcast. I got, I got to wait until my mother dies. Mm-hmm. And then, you know, or father dies or whatever. Mm-hmm. Well, you will get a lot of people who read it and then you will get a lot of people. I know that will reach out to you and say supportive things. I mean, I hope so. I don't know the book world. Um, there's not a lot of people who write out openly and honestly about their suicide attempt and do it well. And that sounds snobby, but it matters.

[00:46:15] Yeah, it does. You can't get through a chapter because it's written so poorly. I used to do a lot of personal narrative storytelling on stage. It's the same idea. Like A plus for your courage. But if the craft isn't there, it's impossible to listen. The craft matters. Um, how many people actually know other than your agent that we are having this conversation? I think like one or two people. How many other podcasts have you been on or will you be on? Um, right now I'm slated to be on one other one.

[00:46:41] Um, and then, so actually I work at a, I teach at a community college. Um, and my dean has a, has a podcast. Oh, sweet. Yeah. And so I actually did a, did an episode with him last week. How'd it go? It was good. I was really nervous. Um, because, you know, obviously I have been really nervous to share this stuff with colleagues. Um, cause right, you know, in the book I, I, you know, I write not just about the attempt, but I also, you know, tell the story of self-harming when I was in graduate school.

[00:47:10] And, you know, I was kind of terrified for colleagues and my boss to read about that. But it went really well. You'll, if you do more, you'll get more comfortable, I imagine. Yeah. I mean, that's the hope anyway. Um, yeah. And then the big tour, is there, is there going to be a tour? There is. Yeah. Yeah. We're, we're setting it up right now. It's been a little bit chaotic. You're going on a tour. This is awesome. Mm-hmm. You're going to be in Mexico by any chance? I want to come by and get a, get a book and sign, sign it. Probably not. But if you're up in Texas, come through.

[00:47:41] How many people do you have in your life to talk to about really hard things and during or after the conversation, you don't feel worse? A handful. I, you know, um, so I, you know, I have been working with the same therapist for six years now, six or seven years. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Going to therapy every week. And then he also actually runs a group. So I'm, I do group and individual. And yeah, feel like that, that has been really, uh, essential.

[00:48:09] Outside of that, I think I've got like one or two people. Um, but yeah, you know, I think it can be really hard to find people outside of therapy who can have some of these really hard conversations about things. It's so hard. How do you keep yourself busy? I know that you work at a community college. You're not busy. Um, I'm curious about your days. Community colleges, the teaching load is fairly heavy. So like right now I'm teaching four classes. Last semester it was five. So the, and then I have like admin duties on top of that. So work is really busy.

[00:48:38] And then I actually, uh, I play soccer pretty frequently. Um, that's pretty fun. The book publishing process is really long. Like it's a really slow process. Um, and I am not a patient person. So to keep myself from going insane, I, I've started working on my second book. Um, and yeah, so focusing on that has been really helpful. It's always a memoir. Um, so this one's actually a novel. Um, I figured you're not like, cause once you write your memoir, you could write another

[00:49:07] memoir, but like, yeah, you're not going to go back to back memoir, memoir. Yeah. Like that would be weird. Yeah. So you're going novel. Mm-hmm. All right. How deep in are you? Oh, I have a full draft finished. Um, I, a friend of mine read through it and gave me some really insightful notes. And so now I have to do some like pretty extensive revision. Um, but we'll figure it out. We'll get there. How does it feel? Uh, cause you spend so much time with this and then you're talking about it. You will always be a suicide attempt survivor.

[00:49:36] You will never not be a suicide attempt survivor. Mm-hmm. How does that land with you? Sit with you. Whatever word we want to use. Resonate with you. That, that's a hard question. Um, because at this, at this point in my life, uh, I've gotten to a spot where I'm like, I am, but that doesn't define me. Like I am so much more than that. And then not to, not to rely on book metaphors too much, but I feel like that is just a chapter of my story and that chapter is over. But at the same time, I think it's really, really important to say that out loud and to claim that.

[00:50:06] Um, and it helps contextualize like everything else in my life and makes me feel really proud of where I am today. Um, because yeah, the person I was eight years ago would not be able to imagine that. Yeah. I was in a spot where suicide just isn't an option anymore. Don't think about it like that. Mm-hmm. What are the biggest myths, if any, that you want to dispel? Um, I mean the, oh man, there's so many. It's probably a long list, but is there one or two that really pop pretty hard?

[00:50:34] One of the biggest ones is the idea that suicide is always, um, irrational and impulsive. Because again, right, for me, it was a long and slow walk over many months. Um, and in the moment it, in my mind, it really was the rational choice. Everybody's story is different, but I also never regretted it. You know, there are all sorts of stories of people who tried to kill themselves and later they regret it and they're like, how could I possibly do that? How could I think that? Um, but I never, I never felt that way. To this day.

[00:51:04] Yeah, to this day. It was a logical decision at the time. Mm-hmm. It was logical at the time. This might sound, I don't know how this would sound, but, uh, to this day I'm like, you know, I, I'm happy now that I'm still alive. Mm-hmm. But if I had died then, like, that just would have sort of been a different path. Again, like, this gets kind of tricky to talk about because again, like, I am, I am glad to be here today.

[00:51:29] I, I don't want to make like a value judgment that it was good or bad that I survived because it was just like a fact. Do you know what I mean? Um. Yeah, no, it's an interesting thing to hear and I could see how it's tricky to articulate or find the right way to convey that idea. Mm-hmm. It just turned out you didn't die. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Undead, undead. So you're here. Yeah, here I am. And not, and not suicidal. No, yeah, not at all. Pretty, what are the odds that you make it, uh, you die a natural death? A hundred percent.

[00:51:57] I know people don't like to be compared, but like, when you have all these conversations, a lot of people I've talked to, they're like, there's this feeling of like, they got so scared of it. Never say it's impossible that it can't happen again. Does that make sense? Like, they almost scared themselves into, I'm not going to say it's a hundred percent, but you're at a hundred percent. Mm-hmm. Yeah. No, I know.

[00:52:23] And right, like a hundred percent attribute this to like really intense, effective therapy. What kind of therapy was it? Um, I mean, it was just like talk therapy. Uh, and you know, my therapist uses various modalities, right? Like he's not like, oh, I do CBT, I do DBT. He does like a mix of all of them. Um, having, and right, so going to having individual therapy and then going to group therapy every week for years. You know, sometimes it feels silly to say I've been in therapy so long, but I mean, that,

[00:52:51] that has really what's gotten me to this point. Do you ever talk to the axe? No, never again. Have you lost anyone to suicide? I actually haven't. There were people that I knew from my hometown, but no one that I was really close to. What's the name of your novel? Um, I, that's the thing. The, the name is sort of in flux. I don't know. I don't know anymore. This is where, uh, this is where we're going to, please just give me a call sometime. I'm a memoir guy, not a novel guy. Uh-huh.

[00:53:19] My gifts end at the memoir level. Mm-hmm. Like fiction is a whole different animal when it comes to making titles. I know the answer to my following and final question, I think. But I want to ask you about it in two parts in your life. One is today and one is at some point and probably around April, 2018. Mm-hmm. It's the pink and purple pill question. Mm-hmm. Um, and for those of you that don't know what that means or don't know what the pink and

[00:53:46] purple pill does, that means I either, this is the first time you've heard this podcast or you're not a good listener. I'm not judging you either way. It's fine. If I give Madeline this pill and she chooses to ingest it, she goes to sleep. There's no pain. She doesn't wake up. And, uh, and nobody knows it's a suicide. Even though once in a while people will say, actually take that part out. I want them to know it's a suicide. That is how the question is framed. Um, today is Tuesday, March 17th, early afternoon. What do you do with the pill? I flush that down the toilet. Gone.

[00:54:16] Because you don't need it or because you don't want to be tempted? I don't need it. And then I would want it away in case like anyone else found it. Yeah. Well, it doesn't work on other people. That's part of it. Oh, okay. They might ask you about it. Mm-hmm. Well, man, if other people, if it wouldn't work on other people, then I would want to do something weird and symbolic about it. Because it changes the nature of the question. Mm-hmm. If people are like, well, I'd want to help my mom when she gets really old and sick. It's like, that's not the point of the question. Mm-hmm. Although you could argue and have thought experiments.

[00:54:46] So, because people have asked me, oh, well, I would. That's what I was like. No, we can't add that. Mm-hmm. But the only thing I have had is there's no expiration date. When I did it, then I'm like, oh, that changed the fact that you save it. It'll always work for the rest of your life. Anyway, it's an interesting thing to think about, but for you, easy answer. Mm-hmm. I think it's a much harder question if I asked you about April 2018. Mm-hmm. Or I would have taken it immediately. How weird is it? Because you'd be dead, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I know that you're kind of factual about it. Mm-hmm.

[00:55:16] But then there is no Texas. There's no book. There's no eight years of life. Yeah. And I don't know. And maybe the biggest thing and the most, that would have been the most overwhelmingly difficult thing to accept, you don't ever even get to meet me. Yeah. Of course. How in the world would you have handled that from, well, you wouldn't have known because depending on your belief system, you wouldn't be here. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Man, actually, as a quick aside, do you know Martin McDonough? He's a film director. He made In Bruges.

[00:55:46] Yeah. I know the movie. So he, before he started making movies, he wrote plays. And he has a play called The Pillow Man. Do you know the play? I feel like I do, but I don't know. Tell me more. The play is about an author who wrote all these weird, bleak stories. And one of the stories is about the pillow man. And the story of the pillow man is a man made of pillows.

[00:56:11] And his whole job is he is sent to people who are on the brink of suicide. And he takes them back in time, back to when they were children, before all of the horrible things happened to them that led them to suicide. Right? So he takes them back in time to when they were children. And when they were children, he explains to them what's going to happen. And then he teaches them how to kill themselves in such a way that their parents will never find, like no one will ever know.

[00:56:36] And then he, being made of pillows, is there with them, like sort of holding them, comforting the children as they die. Oh, wait. Oh, so the children die as children? Yes, they die as children. So he is sort of saving them from this life of suffering through teaching them how to kill themselves. But then right part of, actually write about this in the book, because I think part of what is so tragic about the story of the pillow man is that even though he can see the trajectory

[00:57:04] of their lives and he can go back in time, he is powerless to actually change any of the horrible things that happened to them. And well, it's a play that someone created so they could have made the pillow man different, but it shows to do it that way, that they can't change their trajectory. So they should die as children. I wonder how people took that play. Controversial for sure. Controversial, but I think it was quite successful. Wow. What else do you want to share? We've talked about it a lot.

[00:57:31] I just want to feel like you feel good about it and the open-ended question. Yeah, it's the hardest one. Yeah, the open-ended question. I mean, I think partly, I think we sort of hinted at this in the conversation, but I think really a huge thing that led me to think about suicide was, right, all of the things that happened to me when I was a kid and that trauma and how that turned me into a person that I did not want to be. I couldn't find a way to be a better person.

[00:58:00] And so when I thought about suicide, it was like, this is a way to finally deal with all the traumatic things that happened when I was a kid and sort of a final way to get out of all of that. I am extremely proud to be at this point where, right, like it's not an option for me. But I also like completely understand people who feel like it is not just an option, but maybe like the option for them, right?

[00:58:30] Like I think being a suicide attempt survivor, I think I'm always going to, like if somebody says that, I think I'm always going to be like, yeah, I understand. Like I get it. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'm actually, I'm glad to hear that as opposed to what sometimes happens, which is, you know, the crusader has to fix everyone. And 95% of the talks that I've heard on suicide are like, I went through this thing. You shouldn't do that. Yeah. It's like, well, yeah, but that's, is that the main, like, but there's more to it.

[00:59:01] Yeah, there's so much more to it. And I think one of the other things that I really, I don't know if you would call this a myth or not, but, but one of the things that I always want to put push back on is that like, I don't think there's any shame in trying to kill yourself, right? Like I, you know, there are all sorts of reasons, all sorts of things that would push a person towards suicide. I don't think there should be any shame attached to it or even any, any real like moral value judgment.

[00:59:26] I think the real, if we are making any sort of judgment, it should be looking at like, okay, what are the factors that made a person feel like life was unlivable? Like what made a person feel like this was their only option, right? Like the shame, if there is any shame, it should be on all the, all of the other things and not, and not the person. This could be a whole other podcast. So where do you think that comes from? Like what, where is that shame from? Why, why, why does that exist? I mean, right. It's so deep, it's so deep rooted, right?

[00:59:55] Like, no, but where, like, is it like, there's gotta be an answer or speculative. Some, one could speculate. I mean, I think partly it's, you know, people who have never experienced it. It feels so incomprehensible, right? Like to. But there's a reason it feels incomprehensible because arguably it's, it's unnatural. Arguably. You were built to survive and not die. Unnatural quote unquote. There's obviously a lot of, and you probably can speak far more intelligently about this than I can given your background, but like.

[01:00:26] Certainly there's gotta be some influence from religion and all of this. Oh my God. It's only been sort of fairly recently that this has changed, but like for a long time, people who killed themselves, uh, like you couldn't bury them in whole, in, uh, cemeteries next to churches, right? Like they would have to be buried somewhere far away from everybody else. Um, in interesting reading about this, uh, because in colonial Massachusetts, um, if a person killed themselves, they would be buried, um, underneath crossroads, um, like unmarked

[01:00:56] graves under crossroads. And it was thought that because people were walking over that space so much, the spirits would be trapped. Um, and also because it was at a crossroads, the spirit would never find their, its way home to, um, to haunt the people. Real punishment here. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Right. So clearly, clearly their life was not hard enough just, uh, for eternity continue to just beat the shit out of them and bully them. Great. Good idea. Exactly. Exactly. Right.

[01:01:22] Like it's this very ingrained idea that if somebody wants to kill themselves, they need to be shamed and punished for it. Right. Like even the, you know, there, there was the net hung, um, underneath the, the golden gate bridge, um, to catch people. Yep. Um, and I was reading an article where the manager of the bridge, the guy who was in charge of the bridge made a comment. Um, and he was like, cause you know, the, the net isn't actually a net. It's basically a cage.

[01:01:51] The manager of the golden gate bridge said that jumping into it feels like jumping into a cheese grater. Um, and we want people to know that if they jump off this bridge, it's going to hurt. Um, so right. Even in that, right. I mean, you could argue there's no other way to make it so that it would work. There might be some reasons why, but it also sounds like we want to just keep punishing you. Exactly. You know what first image I had? If you want a barrier, that's a whole other question. If you believe there should be some sort of barrier, the first thing that fucking popped

[01:02:20] in my head is I want a pillow man there. Right. Just because I just want to land on pillows, not because of the death as a child thing. Why wouldn't we put pillows there? Oh, that's so naive. Well, yeah, I know it's not actually pillows, but. But right. Like something comforting, something to be like. And we, it's 2026. You have the technology. Mm hmm. Right. The technology is there where you can make a soft landing. Mm hmm. That's a choice. Yeah, absolutely. Right. It's yeah, it just really sucks.

[01:02:49] Again, like I am in a spot where it's not an option for me, but I think it's such I think it's such bullshit to shame people, be it for attempting or for ideating. And I think there is still a lot of that. So much. Well, maybe in some way your book will help undo that a little bit. I hope so. I mean, that's part of the hope. The biggest question I have actually is if I, you know, I sometimes I do update episodes, so it might be a year, but it could be several years. You might be very famous at that point. Doubtful. I mean, again, I'm a nobody who wrote an artsy memoir about suicide.

[01:03:19] I don't know if that's going to make me. Never know. You never know. But famous and an open invite to come back and update on your life. If we did it, let's just let's do a random two years from now. What, if anything, is different about your life other than the fact that obviously you've aged two years? I mean, I hope my second book is about to be published. But yeah, I mean, I'm a spot in my life where things feel pretty solid. So it's not the way all of my conversations end. So glad to hear it. I'm happy to hear that because not being OK for an extended period of time.

[01:03:49] It's just sucks. Oh, it's horrible. Yeah. Yeah. It's just a sucky, sucky way to go through life. And there's a lot of people in that space. Yeah. Cool, man. Thank you for talking. Yeah. Same to you. I have a question for you that I rarely ask only because I want to make sure that I'm doing the best job I can. Are you feeling OK right now? Yeah. Mm hmm. I figured as much. But somebody said to me, Sean, when you're done with these conversations, how do you take care of them? And I'm like, they're grownups.

[01:04:18] And they like, I'm very I'm a bit. I'm, you know, like this is a grownup who's choosing to be here. They've heard the podcast. They know how. But then I'm also like, that's kind of a dick move. Like if someone's talking about this stuff for 90 minutes, it could kind of be hard. So but then I also thought if you weren't OK, what am I going to do now? Like there's nothing I can do anyway. Well, it's funny because I actually feel compelled. And I felt this way, too, when I did the podcast interview with my dean, where I feel similarly compelled to be like, are you OK?

[01:04:46] Like we just talked about my shit for an hour and a half. Like, are you good? It's an interesting thing. Yeah. That's rarely been asked to me. Yeah. Yeah. I like doing this work. And, you know, I've been doing it for so long now that it's it's it's it's hard to explain. It's almost like how you said, like, had you died, it was just it would have been that's what that would have been. And it's more like a fact. This is a bad analogy, but it's just more like this is just what I'm I just have these conversations and it's for better or worse. Like, yeah, I'm good.

[01:05:15] I think I mean, maybe deep down those I'm getting all fucked up over six years of doing this. But like, yeah, I just get excited that people are trust me and they open up and they share stuff that is not common, cannot other people can hear and then and then people will hear it. So that's cool. So thank you. Yeah. And I mean, thank you. And, you know, I think we're going a little bit long. This might not end up on the episode. But right. So when I attempted, right, it was 2018, obviously, before you started this podcast.

[01:05:44] And man, in the days and months after I attempted, I would have man, if I had found a podcast like this, it would have changed so much. So I think it is really important that you do this. Yeah. Well, thank you. That's nice to hear. And I've had people say kind of similar things. And it's so weird that to this day, because that was eight years ago, it's gotten a lot easier to make podcasts. It's gotten a lot cheaper.

[01:06:10] And there's people that have Wi-Fi and there's still no podcast like this. I mean, unless something new came out recently and that would be great. But still, it's hard to find. Yeah. Just open conversations about this topic. Mm hmm. But it's here for now. And who knows? Like, I don't know how the interwebs will change. But like, once it's out, unless you want to delete it, I mean, it might be out for decades. I don't know how we don't know where it's going to go and how AI might change things. But like, it's going to be available for a little while.

[01:06:40] Yeah. Mm hmm. It has a little life of its own. Mm hmm. Like your books. Mm hmm. It was good meeting you, Madeline. I appreciate the combo. And I hope our paths cross again soon. And I will definitely read your book. Thank you so much. And yeah, thank you for talking with me. And having me on. Awesome, man. Hope your day is nice. Bye. Okay. Bye. As always, thanks so much for listening and all of your support. Special thanks to Madeline in Austin, Texas. Thanks, Madeline.

[01:07:09] If you are a suicide attempt survivor or ideator and you'd like to talk, please reach out. Hello at suicidenoted.com. Answer the poll. Rate us. Review us. It really does help people find the podcast. That's all I've got for this week's episode. Stay strong. Do the best you can. I'll talk to you soon.