Lee in California

[00:00:00] I miss the oblivion. I mean, I was an alcoholic and I was suicidal and I've been suicidal for pretty much my whole life. You know, I feel like if I drank again that I would probably, that would be the end of it for me. It's not just that I'd be like sad or depressed about it. My brain wants me to do it.

[00:00:36] Hey there, my name is Sean and this is Suicide Noted. On this podcast, I talk with suicide attempt survivors and ideators so that we can hear their stories. Every year around the world, millions of people try to take their own lives and we almost never talk about it and we don't. And the big organizations out there who talk about it, you don't really talk about it. And the people who say they really listen hard and they listen in and they lean in, you don't. A small handful of you do, but most of you don't because most of you either don't want to or really don't know how to.

[00:01:06] And that is a problem. So one of my goals with this podcast is to have more conversations and hopefully better conversations with survivors so that perhaps, hopefully, more people in more places will feel a little less shitty and a little less alone. And I'll tell you, the way we're doing things now, it's not just about numbers going up or numbers going down.

[00:01:27] We're silencing people straight up because liability and risk mitigation and fear are far more important than actually letting people speak openly and honestly. So those are my two cents or my two pesos, but I think they're worth a little bit more than that. Now, if you are a suicide attempt survivor or ideator and you'd like to talk, did you hear the bells? Mexico City's got a lot of churches and I love the bells. So sometimes I include them here. Anyway, if you'd like to talk, please reach out. Hello at suicidenoted.com. I'd love to talk with you. I'll get back with you. It's real simple.

[00:01:56] You know where to find all the stuff about the podcast, suicidenoted.com or all over these podcast platforms, including how to help us out with a tax deductible donation. That means you get to deduct it from your taxes and I get to make a little money so I could keep it going, hopefully a little bit longer. Finally, we're talking about suicide. My guests and I don't hold back, so please take that into account before you listen or as you listen. But I do hope you listen because there's so much to learn. Today, I am talking with Lee.

[00:02:24] Lee lives in California and she is a suicide attempt survivor. Lee in California. Are we northern or southern or where are we in that state of goldenness? I'm in Berkeley. Oh, how fancy. Are you a fancy professor? No, no, no, no. But I do have some fancy professor friends. You got a nice cool little vibe going on there. A lot of plants and greenery and cool stuff behind you. Yeah.

[00:02:54] I collect rocks and I'm really into geology and dinosaurs. The natural world includes humans and humans sometimes end their lives. Yeah, for sure. Or think about it. I'm guessing if you weren't in either one of those categories or both of them, we wouldn't be here. Yeah. Wow, that just took a turn. Lee in California, thanks for talking with me. I appreciate it. Thanks for having me. How did you find this? Me, this thing?

[00:03:23] I'm always looking for ways to heal. You know, I'm always looking for ways to be a better person and to understand myself better and, you know, understand the way that I think. You know, podcasts are really helpful for that. You know, suicide is a big part of my story and my background. And it's not something that's easy to talk to people about. I find that it makes them like extremely uncomfortable. That is an understatement. So, but your podcast, you know, people can talk openly about it.

[00:03:50] You know, I feel like I can be of service to people maybe who aren't ready to talk about it. So that's cool. I think you're right. I think when people hear people talk about it openly, you know, honestly, it helps. That's, I guess, one of the main goals of this work. Yeah, absolutely. It would be totally different if this was just us talking and no one got to hear it because there would be value there, but that's not what we're doing. Part of it is for the public. Absolutely. I'm an open book. Yeah. Whatever you want. I'm not quite sure where to start. Obviously, I've never done a podcast before.

[00:04:19] Usually, if you're speaking with a decent podcaster, they have an idea of where they can start. So I always have options. I don't usually start in the same place. Once in a while, probably not in this case, given what you just said, I'll be like, where do you want to start? But not in this case because you just said, I don't know where to start. So let me ask you this. How many suicide attempts do you have? Two. When was the first one? The first one when I was 18. Was the second and most recent one?

[00:04:47] When I was 31, I guess, 32. So that was 11 years ago. March 9 was actually 11 years. Oh, you remember the day? Well, I got sober. Wait, wait. So the day you tried to end your life was the same day you got sober? Yeah. The next day, anyway. Right. Well, going to take a wild guess here. That alcohol had something to do with that attempt. Yes. When you say sober, I guess it could also mean drugs. But we'll get into it. We'll share what you want. So it's been over 10 years since you've been clean, I guess is the word?

[00:05:16] I don't drink. I smoke a lot of marijuana. Okay. So it's been 10 years since you had an alcoholic beverage. Do you miss it? 11 years. 11 years. 11 years. Do you miss it? I miss the oblivion. Yeah, right? Yeah. But I also feel very strongly that if I drank again, I would probably end it. That would be the thing. Because when I drink, my deepest anxieties come to the forefront. The day that I stopped drinking, I was, I mean, I was an alcoholic and I was suicidal and I've been suicidal for pretty much my whole life.

[00:05:45] You know, I feel like if I drank again, that I would probably, that would be the end of it for me. Like not necessarily that day, but that's the path. That's the path. It's not just that I'd be like sad or depressed about it. My brain wants me to do it. Your brain sober wants to do it. Yeah. Your brain right now, as we speak on March 20th, wants to do it. Yes. Okay. So then what stops you from doing it? My husband. I got married when I was 20 and we've been together the whole time and I put him through a lot. And I can't, I can't do it to him.

[00:06:15] I think that killing myself would ruin his life and I can't do that to him. You said you're an open book. Yeah. That doesn't give me license to be an asshole, but I'm going to ask you some questions. You don't have to answer them, right? So if tomorrow he says I'm leaving you or he tragically dies, where does that leave you? Given that you said he's the only reason you're staying alive. I would follow through with my plans. You have them? Yeah. I mean, kind of like daydreaming about it.

[00:06:41] If he did leave or died or something like that, I would go out of the country and have a wonderful trip. And I would, I don't know, I would end it somewhere there. What country? I really love Thailand. Sorry to the Thai people, but I... Why sorry? You're giving them tourists. You know, I think about what they'd have to do with my body, that some poor person would have to do that. That's horrible. Somebody that doesn't, who hasn't had a lot of conversations about suicide would think or could think, oh, but when you get to Thailand, you'll be happier.

[00:07:11] So you won't do it. I don't think so. You know, I have a long history with mental illness and both for myself. I have, you know, I'm treated, I'm medicated for depression and anxiety. And I come from a family with a lot of mental illness, suicide attempts, substance abuse. My brain just doesn't want, my brain doesn't want to be here anymore. And it's really hard going through the days, you know, waiting, hoping a bus takes me out. You know, at this point it's passive.

[00:07:40] There is, there is, that is a passive suicide, but there's got to be a name and I don't think there is one. There probably is one. I hope I get hit by a bus. I hope if there's like an attack, I get shot. I get, it may not be called a suicide. It wouldn't be a suicide, but I'm dead. What is that cult? Peace. Sorry. That one I wasn't expecting. I guess passive suicidal ideation is pretty, not succinct enough.

[00:08:10] I feel like passive suicidal ideation is like, I think about killing myself. Not, I think about an asteroid hitting me. Getting to die is part of it. Right. To be released, I guess, is part of it. I just want to, I want a term for it that I'm going to look it up. I'm going to make it. I'm going to ask Google Gemini. Yeah. I'll think about it too. Because that could be the name of your memoir. Like, I mean, we're really doing some crazy stuff here right now. We just started talking. I'm here for it. I'm totally, I told you I'm a totally open book.

[00:08:38] Like, I'm an open book is not the name of the memoir. That would be way too meta cliche, right? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you're in fucking Berkeley after all. Jesus, the pressure you must have to sound super smart and literate and all that stuff. Also, but Berkeley's also got a lot of like crunchers and stuff that like. Yeah. I mean, I grew up in the Midwest. I grew up in Michigan and I lived in Chicago for 10 years. And California always called to me. Beautiful weather. My best friend lived in San Diego and I'd come visit her.

[00:09:08] It's like, why don't I live in California? Well, that was a good transition to your childhood. Let's do that. Okay. You're from Michigan. You said you have always wanted to, you were always suicidal. Probably not when you were six months old. You don't have, but like, you basically mean most of your memory. Yeah. The first time I contemplated it, I was 10. I remember it because I remember coming, going to my mother who has, she has borderline personality disorder. Going to her and telling her that I was suicidal and depressed. And she said, you're fine. You're fine.

[00:09:38] And that was the end of it. So Midwestern. Ugh, so Midwestern. You know, they don't, they don't lie on their plate. Like my brother also has borderline. He was not diagnosed until a few years ago. A lot of the trauma I experienced was at his hands and they had a lot in their plate dealing with him. Um, and my, my dad was an alcoholic. He's sober now too. You know, I was a good student. I didn't get into trouble and I was ignored basically. My needs were never part of the story. They were never a concern. Anytime I asked for help, it was rejected.

[00:10:08] Do you have friends? I have a lot of friends. You got a lot of friends. You're in school in Michigan somewhere. At 10 years old, you think about it. Just, I would say, skewing on the younger, younger side of things. Yeah. Um, no one's helping you out. I mean, when you ask for help and no one helps, do you eventually just like stop asking for help? Yes. That'd be like a normal human response, right? Yeah. I'm, I'm hyper independent. I always have been, you know, with my, my parents having other things more important to deal with. I was left alone all the time. Not a lot of rules, not a lot of oversight.

[00:10:38] I was, I figured it, I figured it out myself. You figured what out? Well, I'm still figuring it out, but how to behave. What's normal, you know, quote normal. What other people experience? Like with my therapist, we talk a lot about what's normal. What other people experience because I don't know. Because people don't talk about this stuff. You know, I'm fortunate that I'm a, I'm an AA, largely for social reasons, but we, all we do is talk about our feelings there. And that's not how the real world is. We don't. And we especially don't talk about our dark feelings. Yeah. What do we talk about? Everything else, I guess.

[00:11:08] Everything else. Everything to just not talk about it. Literally, that's the whole point. Just don't, not that. Exactly. And I want deep and real, you know, I want deep and real with the people in my life. You used a word that has come up a lot in this podcast and I never, it never sits well with me. It's the word dark. Why is talking about those things? What makes those things dark? Like suicide. I understand what people are thinking. And if something's part of the human experience, I don't see how that's labeled dark. Now, as I say that, thinking about assaulting somebody and killing a dog. Okay. Yeah.

[00:11:38] So I guess that is a fair word to use sometimes. I digress. You don't talk, you weren't talking about it then. Were you this super hyper independent person trying to figure things out and left on your own? Were you getting into trouble? I mean, not like legal trouble necessarily. Just, I had a lot of older friends. I started drinking young. I started doing drugs young. I knew I didn't have to come home at my, whatever arbitrary curvy my parents said, because I knew that they would be home drunk and they wouldn't know when I got home.

[00:12:05] You know, so it didn't, there were, there were just not rules. Or they would try to place them. But then, you know, given that they didn't parent really, it was kind of laughable that sometimes they would try to assert these, these rules because they didn't, they didn't enforce them. You know, they were not forced. They weren't consistent. Yeah. I had, I had a lot of older friends that I actually moved out when I was still in high school with some older people. One of whom was a drug dealer. My parents didn't know. Didn't care. Didn't ask. I did get in trouble with drinking. I got a DUI when I was 21.

[00:12:35] It took me another 11 years to get sober, but I did stop drinking and driving. So that's, that's good. That's good. When did you leave Michigan? Um, 2007. Okay. So at that point you had already met the man that would be your husband? Yeah. I met him my first week of college. It was the day before September 11th. Wait, what, what, what college can you say? I went to, well, I was at the community college in Grand Rapids, Michigan at the time. Okay. And that's where you met Mr. Wonderful. Yes. You know, I thought he was cute and we, you know, we chit chatted.

[00:13:03] We were both, I helped him with his math homework at a coffee shop. We had a meet cute. He didn't need that much help. We had a very, very like a lovely meet cute where I was smoking cigarettes and he was smoking cigarettes and he has to borrow my lighter. And then he asked me to help him with his math homework. A classic line. Which is really funny because he was very bad at math and now he's an engineer. So. Yeah. Well, I'll go for you. So you meet, you fall in love eventually.

[00:13:31] And then the two of you leave Michigan at some point, not too long after you finished college. I know I'm doing a bit of a summary here, but. That's right. Um, what, but from 10 years old till your early to mid twenties, when you leave Michigan, there is an event that happens that, uh, is classified as a suicide attempt. I imagine during all that time, given what you shared thus far, you're thinking about suicide somewhat regularly. Yeah. Well, I don't know that I was aware of it. You know, I don't know if that's what I realized what was going on.

[00:13:57] I knew when I was 10 that that's what I thought, but it was shut down so abruptly that I, you know, I didn't really think about it again until I was like a teenager. I remember my dad and I were driving down and I, I, it's one of my flashbacks that I have a lot of often of driving down the road with my dad and him telling me that he was thinking about killing himself. So, and then my brother also had a couple of attempts as well in that time period. So it's something that just became a part of my life. Yeah.

[00:14:25] Or at least, well, not, not that my family talked about it. Of course we never talked about it. There were things that happened. And is not a bad title for one's memoir. So tell me about what happens or in or around the time of 18, where it goes from thinking about it sometimes to taking action. I've, I've always been a very depressed person. I, I liken myself to, I don't know if you remember the show Daria. Okay.

[00:14:54] It was, it was like a nineties cartoon in this. Oh yeah. Um, I was kind of like that, you know, I was, I had friends, but I was very withdrawn, hated high school, hated high school, depressed all the time, hostile, angry. Just random question. What was your high school's mascot? The Falcon. I don't, you don't fit with a Falcon. No, no, no, no. It was a big high school and I, you know, I'm just not much of a joiner, you know, at that in high school, I had discovered drugs and alcohol, you know, that was my, that was my escape.

[00:15:23] And so I, I went to college depressed, not, not being treated yet for it. Um, I don't, I don't even think at that point I'd been to a therapist at all, but I was drunk, tried to overdose with alcohol and pills. My dad and my husband drove me to a facility where I was checked in. Scared me pretty good. I was like, I'm not like these people, you know, I'm surrounded by people like a guy who, you know, tried to hang himself in front of this, you know, his family home and this

[00:15:53] other guy who would cut himself really badly in his face and a bipolar. I was like, I don't belong here. Yeah. Get me out of here. But when the thing that came out of that was that I started getting medicated, um, that was the first time I got medication or that there was some, you know, discussion about the fact like that I was very depressed and beyond just the blues. Beyond the blues. Yeah. Very much beyond the blues. So, you know, I look back at that as more of kind of like a cry for help, but I know that when I was doing it, I was trying to do it. I was trying to end my life.

[00:16:23] It's not like I, I didn't put a gun in my mouth. I didn't hang myself. You know, I took pills, which, you know, you got to take enough. I mean, pills don't tend to work, but yeah, they can. I just got sick. You know, I was just sick. You know, getting medicated was really helpful. Um, you know, finding the right medication has always been a struggle, but I think I found I've landed on some good medications, but it doesn't take away the ideation for me. It does not. Do you think it's possible you and perhaps others are born with that kind of suicidal condition?

[00:16:50] You know, on the nature nurture debate, I, I, I really couldn't say, I mean, I, my personality tends to be pretty, again, dark for lack of a better word. I tend to be pretty pessimistic. Um, I don't know if that's because of my upbringing or just a result of my upbringing. Yeah. But I do come, mental illness is a problem in my family. It's not just my mom, my brother, and me. I also have a cousin who has, she has some mental health issues and we suspect that my mother's mother did as well.

[00:17:18] So I think I was certainly predisposed to it. Like my husband, for example, he wants to live forever. He does? He, yes. Does he actually, to do that thought experiment? I mean, do you really, if you really think about that, I mean, okay, 500 years, fine. But he says he does. How is it in the world that are you two together? I don't understand. Opposites attract? I don't know. Do they know, but do they? Well, it's a constant, it's a, I shouldn't say constant, it's a frequent source of disagreement with us.

[00:17:47] We actually had a conversation a couple of weeks ago where I said, it was some movie with a vampire. I don't remember what it was, but I said, just so you know, if you got turned into a vampire, I'd let you turn me into a vampire so we could live together forever. And then the next day I was like, I just want you to know that wasn't true. I wouldn't, you know, I wouldn't. And yeah. Yeah. And that must've been like the greatest thing for him to hear though. He said, you know, it wasn't true. I talk about this stuff with him. You know, he, he doesn't like it, but I, I've expressed to him many times.

[00:18:16] I have no interest in being medically disabled. I thought two grandmothers die from dementia. I'm not interested. I envisioned that that's very likely how I'm going to die is by suicide. You're going to die by suicide. You went from Michigan to California. Was there a pit stop somewhere else? I went to Chicago. I went to Chicago for 10 years. Yeah. Chicago is a nice town. Love Chicago. Cold, but. So I moved to California. Okay. But it was, it sort of would have been in Chicago that you tried to get second attempt. Yeah.

[00:18:44] More than 10 years after the pills at 18. Yeah. What happened in that scenario? Do you recall? I was in the depths of my alcoholism and completely miserable. Couldn't see a way out. I got into a big fight with my social group while drunk. Long story short, I was ejected from my social group and I went home completely hysterical. I took a bunch of pills again, tried to drown myself in the bathtub. That doesn't work. It doesn't work. It doesn't work at all.

[00:19:14] Like it's just, you're terrible at doing this. I know. You have no idea how to do it. So look, I'm not the one to give advice on how to do it. It's not my role, but get better at it if you're when the day comes, please. If this is really what you want. Well, I mean like, you know, if we, if we make it, if we will get dark again, I, it would not be that way again. Right. Live and learn. Live and learn. And unfortunately live. Unfortunately. So at 31 in Chicago, rejected from the group drinking. When you say you're a drinker and you've been an alcoholic, I'm putting words.

[00:19:44] So if I'm wrong, how bad is the drinking? Well, I mean the drinking, it's, it's not like, you know, I became homeless or anything like that, or I maintained a job. I would be called what we would call like a high, a high functioning alcoholic. Drinking every day, drinking to blackout most of the time. Usually with people, I didn't do a whole lot of drinking by myself. And you're married, so he must be a drinker too though. Yeah. I mean, that would be weird, not weird, but just unlikely that you're drinking all the time and he's never drinking.

[00:20:14] No, we drank together all the time. Does he drink now? Yeah. Yeah. His best drinking buddy doesn't drink anymore. So you all, he cut way back. So he's, he's, he's, he's screwed on. You got screwed by his wife and his friend. And now he's got to just find new buddies or drink alone. He drinks a lot less. Yeah. You're drunk. You go home and you go try to drown yourself. It doesn't go well. I'm just imagining what it would look like. It's like you're flapping around like a fish. It's just, it's not going to work. It's like I was trying to get the courage to do it.

[00:20:43] Like I'm in the hot, I'm in the bathtub filled with water, completely wasted body filled with pills, trying to get the courage to just put my head underwater and breathe in is what it was. Hard. It's really hard to do. Did you do it? I did not kill myself. No, I mean, did you, did you try in the way that you just described? I had reached out to my best friend before I went home, told her I was suicidal. So she had reached out to my husband.

[00:21:11] My husband basically broke the door down to get to me, brought me to the hospital. I went willingly. The biggest, my biggest fear was not even, was not dying. My biggest fear was that, you know, they were concerned at the hospital about organ dysfunction because of the pills and the alcohol, which then cues my biggest fear, which is to be medically dependent on somebody that snapped me out of the drinking because I knew if I continue to drink, I'm going to kill myself.

[00:21:40] How long are you in the hospital for? I was there for three days. The only reason they released me, we had to do something with like the, the, the psychiatrist couldn't get there in time. And according to state law, if the psychiatrist doesn't see you, like they have to release you. He finally came and he's like, are you going to drink anymore? I said, no, I'm done drinking. And I, and I have not touched it since. Wow. I mean, 949 out of a thousand people, at least when they say that they do drink again. Yeah. That's not data that I'm pulling from any real resource, by the way. It is at least 95%.

[00:22:10] And I would, I would bet money on that. Relapse thankfully is not a part of my story, at least with alcohol. I continue to smoke pot through all of it, but my brain, it feels, it feels like medicine to me. And I mean, very seriously, you know, I think my husband kind of doubted it for a long time, but he's seen it in action where I feel healed. Oh, I envy, I envy people who can use marijuana as a medicine. I really do. Psych unit, mental health facilities. How many times have you stayed overnight in one of those places? Two, twice. The first one you mentioned.

[00:22:41] Oh, and the second one was just in the ER. I was in the ER for three days. That's what you just mentioned now. Yeah. Oh, that was a psych unit. That wasn't just a. They put me in a psych unit on suicide watch. Do you remember it? Not really. I remember being really annoyed that the doctor wouldn't come in to see me. You know, I had a woman next to me who was like, her partner kept visiting the hospital and like staying past hours. Here I am in my most vulnerable state and I have a person next to me who's not being respectful of the space, you know. I had a nurse with me.

[00:23:10] I remember thinking that that must be a really boring job for that nurse to sit with me all night. And by that point I was sober, you know, so I'm just frustrated. But they won't release me. Until they did. Until they did because they had to according to state law mandated they had to release that. Do you remember how would you characterize your original stay in a hospital like that back in the day? You know, like I was saying that I was like, I don't belong here. I'm not one of these people. Right. Do you think back now that you still feel that way that you weren't one of those people?

[00:23:38] I guess my understanding of what those people are has expanded. You know, like I look like a totally normal person. You would never know looking at me, looking at my life that I have this desire to end it all the time. You know, but I'm walking around every day thinking about it. Every single day. Every single day. Every single day. How many people in the world know that fact that you just shared? A few. Again, most people don't want to talk about it.

[00:24:04] Given the fact that I am friends with people in AA, we end up talking about this stuff. Yeah. Right. In AA, I would imagine it's more common. It's much more easy to talk about it there. So, you know, my friends from AA, a couple of close family, my brother knows. I remember trying to talk to my parents about it later. I'm completely estranged from my family for what it's worth. But I remember trying to talk to my mom about it later on and she didn't want to talk about it. She didn't even want to talk about it. Yeah. But are you estranged from your brother? Yeah. Is that hard? Yeah.

[00:24:34] Like the brother or all of them? Is it all hard? It's all hard. The brother is harder. He also struggles with mental health and is sober also. He got sober a few years ago now after a suicide attempt. He's had three, I think, three or four. Have him call me, man. I mean, I'm a good guy to talk to about this stuff. There's so much damage. I don't know that we can have a healthy relationship.

[00:25:00] And I feel very strongly that, you know, and I don't understand why it's so hard for people to acknowledge their role and thing and to apologize for hurting other people. But it seems like that's really hard for a lot of people. And it's really important to me because it's the acknowledgement. The acknowledgement that you treated me badly or he's just not capable of it. And that's actually a really common trait of borderline personality disorders. They're just... But what if they just don't see it that way? He doesn't. Then there's nothing to apologize for.

[00:25:30] And he's not gonna... I'm not taking sides. I'm just saying... No, it's fine. But I still see that too. I'm like, should I apologize? And... But I don't even really mean it because fuck, they were the fucking asshole. You know? Like, I don't know what the fuck to do there. You know, we've been estranged on and off for... Since I was a teenager. You know, the longest we've gone without talking is six years. I'm not surprised that it ends this way. It's... When we rekindled our relationship when he had his first... His daughter, it kind of brought the family back together.

[00:25:58] I knew it was just a matter of time until it fell apart again, though. And it did. It did. And I'm not waiting for an apology. It's more just like, I want him to acknowledge his role. You know? Because when we... When he got... Met his wife. She was... Then they're now getting divorced. You know, she had this idea of me that was entirely informed by his anger with me. You know? And I remember talking to her saying, like, didn't you see any red flags with him before? Because he's very... He's quite mentally ill.

[00:26:27] And she said, well, the fact that he had talked to his sister in six years should have been a red flag. But, you know, he painted me to be the instigator. And it's just not... I'm not saying I'm perfect. Certainly, I played my part. But, like, it's not... It's not me. It's why when I went on dates, I have to almost... Like, I have to lie about my life or, like, get really creative because there's so many red flags. Not red flags like, oh, he used to beat his ex-girlfriend. No. Just, like, estranged from this person. Estranged from that. Yeah.

[00:26:56] Like, I can't... You can't do that on the first date. No. Also, women at my age, and I'm over 50, they're like, judge you for not being married or having kids. There's something wrong with you. So, I have to really get creative because I don't want to lie. I have a lot of self-loathing. I feel very much like I have to hide myself from people because I want to hide the crazy. You know, and I don't want them to know or, like...

[00:27:24] Because I'm such an open book, I'm usually afraid I'm going to scare people off. Which is why I can't stand to be around people who are not, like, emotionally enlightened. Because... But they're very hard to find. They are. I don't keep... You know, I have my friends... If my friends can't be vulnerable with me, we're not going to be friends. I'm just too emotional a person. And people think that's... And again, they go to this dark thing. I'm like, but that's just so not what I mean. Like, it doesn't mean that the whole... Is dark.

[00:27:53] And also, what happens for me... And I bet you're similar. I'm sure you're... Oh, when you allow me to talk about that, then I can talk about the other cool shit, too. Yeah. Oh, yeah. But if you're only limiting it to, like... Then I don't want to really engage much. It feels unfair. It feels like you're... You know? I do. I do. You know, I remember meeting my friends, my dear friend's new boyfriend for the first time. And we immediately were existential, like, right away. Talking about dark stuff.

[00:28:22] And, you know, that's just how I tend to be. And he said that... He's like, oh, she warned me that you were going to get, like, real, like, real fast. And I think a lot of that has to do with, you know, this is through therapy and, like, doing, like, trauma therapy that I understand that I'm actually testing people. Interesting. Not consciously. But I want to get a sense of if they can handle it. Yeah. Yeah. Because I'm going to be real all the time with them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you go hard and fast.

[00:28:52] Like, you're, like, on the first date, on the first meeting, within five minutes, and you're going in. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Right, right, right, right. So when I say hard and fast, that's what I mean. It happens quick, and you're going in. You're not, like, tiptoeing around, and you're getting in, in, in. And there are people that can handle that. And there are people that love that. But I would say, again, this is based on the data, like, 4% of the population. Yeah. And it's, you know, and so, and I'm aware of that. I was actually talking about this at an AA meeting this morning.

[00:29:22] What has happened as a result of that is that I'm, I've become afraid of people. Oh, man. And that I hide myself because I don't, I know that a lot of people are scared by that. You know, and I don't, and I have so much to offer. I'm such a good friend, and I'm loving and warm and stuff, and I don't want them to be scared off by that stuff. But that's the real me. What do we do in the real you or me or whomever? It gets a tough choice to make because there are consequences to being, quote, you.

[00:29:50] Meaning people are like, I don't think I want to spend much time. And I, yeah, because it's, you're in the, you're in the minority. I feel like, you know, I tell people, like, I'm pretty intense. You know, don't ask me a question you don't want to have the answer to because I'm probably, and I'm not mean. Right. You know, but I definitely am not going to, I'm going to be honest with my friends. Like, that's one of the things that you can get out of me is that I'm always going to be honest with you, and I'm always going to be truthful and realistic with you. Like, and to be totally honest, I don't even think of myself as being necessarily dark or pessimistic.

[00:30:19] I think of myself as a realist. Of course. You know? Like, I'm like, no. Of course, of course, of course, of course, of course. Well, that's what everybody thinks of themselves, though, no? But I mean, I keep being right, though. You know, like, particularly about what's been going on lately. Like, you have proof. You have evidence. Like, I'm right. I keep being right. You know, my husband and his sister, and I'm very close with my husband's sister, they're both, she kind of dabbles in toxic positivity. And he's a very positive person, too.

[00:30:46] You know, with everything going on globally, you know, I definitely have a pessimistic take on things. And like, no, no, no, it'll be okay. It'll be okay. It'll be okay. And they're starting to see that maybe things aren't, at least in the short term, they're not going to be okay. You know? So I'm like, all of a sudden, my pessimism is realism. Right. You know, that I was like, I see the writing on the wall. I've been surrounded by mentally unhealthy people my whole life. Like, I can see the trajectory here. So there was a 13-year gap. So 13 plus 31 is 44.

[00:31:16] So 11. Well, I just had 11 years sober, and maybe I was 31 when I got sober. So 42, almost 43. Yeah, yeah. So you're nearing the same amount of time between the two attempts. Yeah. Just as a random math fact that no one gets a sure about. I asked you how we sort of found each other, and you gave a sort of general answer. But specifically, like, when and why did you look for suicide in Google or Spotify or Apple? I want to understand myself. I want to understand other people.

[00:31:46] I want to understand why things are the way they are. Why we think the way we do. And so I end up listening to, I listen to a lot of podcasts. I want honest talk. You know, I don't want service-level bullshit. Like, I want honest talk. I don't remember how your podcast came up, but I must have been searching. Maybe it was like mental health podcast or something. Maybe I even Googled suicide. I'm not quite sure. But I found yours, and I was like, oh my gosh, these people get it. You know? These are people who understand what it's like to live with it.

[00:32:15] And I just was like, I felt one of the ways that I feel like I can be of service to other people is to share my story. When was that? Do you remember? A couple months ago. All right. So you just didn't take a long time to reach out. Yeah. Usually, you know, it's funny. Sometimes people are like, that next day, but other times it's like four years. Well, I kind of feel like this podcast, I was like made to come to you. You know? Like, it was the whole, there's so few opportunities to talk about this stuff so openly that I was like, oh, well, gosh, I've been searching for this. I actually went to a death cafe. And we talked about that there.

[00:32:44] You know, there was a lot of talk about that. It was mostly older people. But, you know, it was nice to be able to connect with people a little bit about, you know, some people were there just because they're, I mean, I'm kind of morbid. Like, I love horror movies and I'm attracted to the, I keep saying the darkness, but I'm very attracted to the darkness. It was cool talking to people about it. So I guess I'm looking for opportunities to connect with people over it because I do feel very alone in it. I feel very alone in these feelings.

[00:33:12] And especially as, because the world seems so bleak right now, it's pretty heightened. I feel my ideation is pretty heightened right now. Did you find any other podcasts that you could reach out to? I'm wondering. Mine is the best, but I'm just saying, there are others out there, maybe that aren't dedicated solely to suicide. You might find a really cool host, but I don't know how many are out there. I'm just wondering. Yeah, I've reached out for different things. I've not reached out, but I've listened to a lot of, you know, I've listened to like Mel Robbins podcast.

[00:33:41] She talks about that kind of stuff a lot, but you know, she's friends with Carl Lentz. So she didn't Carl Lentz's. No. He was the pastor at Hillsong. He was the one like Justin Bieber's pastor. Anyway, that made me question her. But, you know, people talking about I'm diagnosed with CPTSD. Any podcast, I definitely have searched out like trauma. Right. You'll find a bunch and I'm sure you'll find some good ones. That'd be cool. You can make some more appearances. But I'm also wondering, tell me one day if you remember, get back to me and let me know

[00:34:11] on those podcasts, which of them proactively, like where you can talk about suicide. Because even on then, I bet some of them will be like, ah. Well, even in therapy, it's hard to find people who will talk about it. You know, like I've had a therapist. I've lied to therapists about it. They're like, are you suicidal? And I'm like, nope. Because if I say yes, they're not going to see me. Isn't that astounding? Yeah, it is. It makes, it's just the most mind boggling thing to consider and deal with.

[00:34:40] I'm like, well, what are you here for if not that? You know, like. Right. My current therapist, I talk to her about it all the time. She does, she's unflappable. Well, if you tell her that you're going to end your life tonight, what will she do? I don't know. She's probably trying to like walk through the thoughts with me. Yeah. But she's risking her license, I think, by not. Doing something? Yeah. Which I think is admirable. But that's just the world we live in. And I don't know that for sure, by the way. So it might be state by state. And I don't know all the, but I know sometimes their hands are tied. Yeah.

[00:35:08] I mean, like, I assume that she would reach out to my emergency contact, which would be my husband. He does know I'm doing this. Your husband knows? Yeah. Is there anyone else who knows? Oh, another AA friend. I told another AA friend that I was going to do this. Supportive? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think especially with my husband, he knows I need someone to talk to about this because he's deeply uncomfortable with it. I have this theory that people who grew up in extremely religious environments, part of the reason they want to live forever is because they're terrified of the afterlife. And I'm not.

[00:35:38] Because I am, I'm not, I'm an atheist. And I've always been an atheist. I, my religion was not a part of my story at any point. And I don't think there's anything waiting for me at the end. I think that when I die, I'm worm food and that's it. So for me, there's no anxiety about what the afterlife looks like, you know, where I think a lot of people are concerned, especially if they were brought up in a religious environment. Gosh, I hope I go to heaven or I hope I go to hell or whatever. I don't have that anxiety. Right. Now you're, what's your life like?

[00:36:07] I mean, on paper, it looks great. I actually just bought a new camper that I just picked up in Portland last week. So I do a lot of camping. I'm related outdoors. I work in a law firm. I've been doing that for like 20 years. I have a lot of hobbies, a lot of interests. Like I mentioned the geology, I'm really into geology and rock collecting and the natural world and dinosaurs and I scuba dive and love traveling. And think about killing yourself every single day. And I think about killing myself every day. While you're doing all those different things. Yeah.

[00:36:37] I mean, like travel, for example, is the escape, right? Travel, I don't, I don't think about it when I'm having a good time. Like in next month, we're going to Belize to go scuba diving and I cannot wait. Because it's just about relaxing and having fun and I'm not thinking about anything serious. And my husband has a very serious job and he gets to relax and we get to relax together. And, you know, hopefully I won't think about the current political climate too much. I'll just eat good food and look at the pretty water and look for fish and turtles.

[00:37:05] And, you know, it's, the natural world's incredible. Sounds like a cool trip. Yeah. You're not uncommon, but it's not super common to talk to somebody who's sort of living the life that it sounds like you live and ideating so regularly. Like I've talked to some people like that, but I wouldn't say the majority for sure. And you said earlier that the one, and it sounds like only thing that stops you is your, is your husband. Yeah. So let's just do that. I'm going to do something I've never done before. Let's do it. I'm going to just tell you what you're going to do with the pink and purple pill.

[00:37:35] Okay. You're saving it. Like it's a hundred percent. I've never been more sure of anything in my life. You're not taking it because you're married to your husband and there's your husband. That's clear. Yeah. There's no fucking way you're throwing it out. I can't do it to him. But you're not throwing it out either. No. Oh no, no, no, no, no. I'm keeping it. Perfect. That's like, I see a cool rock behind you. Probably put it in one of those little crevices in that rock, that gemstone or whatever it is. If anyone's listening for the first time, the pink and purple pill allows you to just go

[00:38:02] to sleep and not wake up and there's no pain and you die and no one knows it's a suicide. So it's just a question I ask my guests. I'm a little unfair with you. I didn't ask. Well, you're right though. You know, so I was saying, you know, I'm estranged from my mom, but we've had a lot, my family is extremely fucked up and she watched her mother die. From Alzheimer's. And she used to joke about hoarding all of her meds to use when things got too dark. And I have, I have a drug locker. Oh, you're a hoarder too? I am.

[00:38:28] I actually have the same bottle of pills that I used 10, 11 years ago when I tried. Won't they like lose their efficacy after a while? Yeah. But I figure, you know, you take enough. Maybe it'll, I don't know. But you're not, then you're not learning because it doesn't work. Or you want more, you'll just take more or a different kind and it might work. Or I take some, so I'm drowsy and then I go swimming and I, yeah, swimming, I can't swim anymore. And I'm having a hard time breathing. And you're in Thailand and they don't understand you because they don't speak English.

[00:38:58] Screams for help because it's a survival mechanism sound the same in any language. It's true. Are you supposed to like put your hands in the air and like waves you, right? Or like this? I don't remember. Yeah. Do you think that physician-assisted suicide should be more openly accepted and allowed? Absolutely. For mental health conditions only? I mean, with, with restrictions, yeah. It's something I actually believe very strongly in. It's one of the few like specific lobbies that I donate money to is Compassion and Choices.

[00:39:27] They, you know, they got physician-assisted suicide legalized in California and, you know, other states for mental health reasons, you know, I feel like there's this big misconception people have about physician-assisted suicide that it's just some depressed teenager going in and, you know, saying, I want to end it. My girlfriend broke up with me. And like, there's a lot of hoops you got to jump through. Should somebody with like schizophrenia be able to do it if that's what they want? I mean, I think that they should. It's a tough call, man, but there's always going to be somebody else deciding.

[00:39:57] And, you know, and I think that's too bad because it's such a personal decision. It is the most personal decision. Right. And I feel like we should be able to have a say in having a death with dignity. I think a lot about, I don't know if you ever saw the movie Children of Men. In that movie, it's like a post-war deconstructed civilization and a medication called quietus is distributed to all the citizens. So basically, if they want to check out, that they can. And it's like government-sanctioned assisted suicide for people.

[00:40:26] I'm not saying that it should be just handed out or sent in the mail. Well, I guess I think there should be a dignified way to depart if that's what we want for ourselves. I could see counter arguments, but I tend to agree with you. Do you remember what color the pill was? I just remember there's like a box. You know, I don't think. I don't want people to think that I still like the idea because that was original thought. I mean, like I see the problems. I do. I think there's solutions to them. I think that it's just, again, part of the problem is that we don't talk about these things. There's all kinds of solutions that we could have.

[00:40:55] There's all kinds of smart policy people out there who could come up with something, a medical community who could come up with something that's equitable. Yeah. And that protects people. Yeah. While still allowing people to have death and dignity. What do they think the chances of that happening is? In the United States? Yeah, whether it's state country or state by state. Yeah. What are the chances? Slim. Yeah. I think it's going to become more liberalized. You know, we see a lot more states doing it, a lot more countries doing it. It's talked about more.

[00:41:23] But I think that there are certain factions in our society who think that it's not only illegal, but potentially immoral. And they seem to be the dominant voice right now. How many people know that you attempted to take your life once or twice? Maybe 10 people. Any of them judge you about it? You know, they all say like, oh, don't do it. No, they're not judgy, but there's a lot of like, I guess, platitudes around it. And I don't want to hear that. I don't want, because I'm like, if I could just talk myself out of it, I would.

[00:41:52] Oh, like, but we love you. Like, I'm like, I know, but that doesn't help me. You know, to have people say, oh, but you have so much. And like, what about this? What about that? Like, you don't, it's more complicated than that. I don't want to have people's pity. I don't want to scare them. First of all, it's out of their hands. It's also, if I'm going to do it, I'm going to do it. Their pity does not help me in any way. I mean, if you were like about to do it, if you were in that position again, and you haven't been since you stopped drinking. So there's like a different dynamic. Would you trust any hospitals around you?

[00:42:21] Or would you even go to one? No, I would. The next time I would just do it. Do you have a date in mind? No. So it's sort of open-ended. I probably will end my life, but I don't know when. Yeah, I tend to think about it in terms of if I have some sort of terminal illness, if I'm diagnosed with dementia. Like I said, I've watched two grandparents die from it. My mother has dementia. I'm not interested. I'm guessing it's probably what will happen.

[00:42:43] And that's actually, you know, one of the things that I got to talk about in that death cafe that I was sharing with you is we were talking about one of the issues with or one of the complications of not allowing assisted suicide is like, say, for example, something like dementia. If you're too far along in dementia, you can't consent to it. But there is no process for preemptively giving consent. That's too bad because what I can tell you for certain is I don't want that for myself. I mean, like I have like a DNR. You know, my husband knows my wishes.

[00:43:13] That's not what I'm, but that's, that's, you know, resuscitate. I thought there was something you could fill out that if I like essentially have dementia, this is what I want. I don't know. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe. I'm not familiar with it if it is. I'm probably wrong. But dementia is progressive. There's no cure. I am not interested in, you know, my husband's like, oh, look after you. I'll take care of you. I don't want him to. No. I don't want that. I've experienced it on the caregiving side and I'm not interested. So it would probably be something like that.

[00:43:41] Or if my husband died or left me, I'd probably get the ball rolling in some capacity. Oh, you would? It would be like sort of, does he know that? Yeah. He's aware. No pressure, buddy. Yeah. Is he going to hear this? Yeah, I think so. He knows that. He must be a cool guy. He's the most amazing person. Yeah, that's so good to have found someone that you feel that way about. I've told him many times if it weren't for him, I'd almost certainly be dead.

[00:44:09] He loves me so much in a way that I was never loved before. He accepts me for who I am. He accepts me where I am. He's my biggest supporter. He's so hardworking. He's kind. I'm not just saying this because he's like one of the best people I've ever known. I mean, is he definitely not bisexual? Because if you do kill yourself, I might want to give him a call. He's not. I am. And I've told him, if you want to with a guy, like, go ahead. And he's like, no, no, no. I'm straight. But he sounds so good.

[00:44:39] He is. The way you just described him. I'm like, I don't know. I'll stray a little bit for the right guy. But it makes me think about people who don't have a partner. Oh, yeah. Or other forms of isolation and loneliness. And yes, of course, people can be terribly lonely with partners and friends. I understand. They don't make it. I get that. And I think about that a lot. And like I said, he's like the only reason I'm still around. And I think a lot about people who don't have that or even just something like getting sober. I always had somebody to be accountable to.

[00:45:09] Whereas if I was a single person and I came home and I was then by myself and I felt weak, like, yeah, you can reach out to somebody. But I had someone there all the time supporting me. And then it compounds. Yeah. I think it changes your brain. Quitting alcohol is the best thing I ever did for myself. So I haven't tried to kill myself in 11 years. So that's... Correlative and or causative. Both. Doesn't matter. It's connected for sure. Yeah. As we speak now, do you have any DSMV diagnoses?

[00:45:38] I know you mentioned CPTSD. Anything else on that list? You know, I guess I don't know. Depression and anxiety. But there's a, you know, I don't know if it's like massive depression. Whatever. I can't remember the term for it, but... Big, big, big capital D depression you got. Yeah. This isn't situational. This is... I often feel like my brain is my biggest enemy. My brain doesn't want me to be alive. You just came up with another memoir title. But your brain is the same brain that's allowing you to have this conversation.

[00:46:06] And it's also the same brain going to Belize and going to go scuba diving. Someone today in the meeting asked me, how was your life? And I said, on paper, it looks great. But I've got this brain that is... Was traumatized over and over and over and over and over and over and over. And it doesn't want me to be alive anymore. Go ahead. I feel like I've seen the darkest parts. I feel like I've seen behind the curtain of life. And I don't like what's there. Yeah. You know, I see the depravity and I see the hostility and the hate. And I'm a very empathetic person.

[00:46:36] And it just crushes me. And there would be people right now, and I know, I know, I don't know about my listeners, but like, they'd be like, but... There's good people out there. Not only that, some of them are in your light. Like, but Lee, you have a husband who's awesome. But Lee, it sounds like you have at least a handful of good friends. But Lee, like, you get to do these cool things that you really genuinely enjoy. It's not just like, oh, but... And they're not going to get it. And they're never going to get it. It's okay. I mean, we don't have to convince everybody here.

[00:47:06] But with all that, you said you look behind the door or the curtain, I think you said. Your brain says... Enough. Enough. And you're 42. So what's it like to know that you might live another 40 years with that brain? I don't know how I'm going to do it. I don't know how you're going to do it either. It's a struggle every day. And, you know, thinking about... I come back to some certain people. You know, Anthony Bourdain. He always comes up in this podcast. He...

[00:47:34] His suicide really devastated me. Because as far as I'm concerned, given what I've told you about myself, he had the most incredible life. Now you're being hypocritical. No, no. But I'm just saying... And he had on paper everything. Oh, yeah. Right, right, right. You know, he had an amazing job. He had to travel the world. He had a beautiful girlfriend, a daughter. And he still ended his life. Yeah. What does that say? Yeah. You know, I think like Kate Spade. Same thing. And it's always the same two people.

[00:48:03] I think it happened around the same time. That's why. It's because they had on paper everything. But it's not about that. You know? And like, I remember my mom asking me too at one point, like, well, what do you want? Like, what do you... You have everything. What do you want? I love the... The tone is what I love here. Did I get hostile? Oh, it immediately is like the tone, right? So... We have a very fraught relationship. It's not about the material stuff. It's not about the people. My brain does not operate correctly.

[00:48:33] And my brain wants me... Or optimally, anyway. And it is medicated and it is still in that space. Yeah. And also we should... It's important to remind people. I think that like, this is about suicide, but everyone is unique. So there are going to be some patterns that show up. And I'm not an expert at this, right? I don't know. It's just easy to make these generalizations that like your story and your situation is really quite different than the dude I talked to last week. You're both suicidal. But there are so many differences. differences.

[00:49:02] That's just one of the main similarities. You know, like his life on paper is awful versus not. That's a huge difference. I mean, I hear about people who have all the awfulness. They have no one. I'm like, how are they sticking around? I'd be gone. I'm not saying they should, but like, how do they do it? Right. And that's a question I try to ask them. If I remember, I try to remember. And, you know, sometimes they don't know themselves. Or sometimes they just say, like, this guy I talked to recently, my rabbit. Yeah. And I said, how old's your rabbit? Five.

[00:49:31] Oh, I said, so you ain't making it for eight years. In eight years, you ain't going to be here. He's like, probably not. I mean, so that's just an interesting answer. And I take a little pride if my ego gets a little because I'm like, that's a good question. It is a good question. You know what I mean? Because it's like, that's actually what's keeping him alive. I mean, I assume he's being honest. And it seemed like he was. What keeps somebody alive? What stops them from ending their lives? Especially when they are thinking about it all the time. His answer is fascinating. His is a rabbit. Yours is a husband.

[00:50:00] I bet for a lot of people, I don't have, again, I've asked that question a lot. Sometimes it's specific, tangible things like your example. Others, it's more like, well, you know, I still hold on to some hope that blah, blah, blah. Right? So it's a little bit more abstract or, you know, it's not a thing. But you don't know if you don't ask. That's why I'm in a fortunate position. I get to ask. 25 years of being an alcoholic, an asshole, hostile, angry, unfair, all those things. And he's still here.

[00:50:30] Get him on this. Get him. He would love it. He's very gregarious. He would love it. So if I were to ask him, or I'm sure you, like, why does he stay with you? So given what you just shared, what's his answer? He says that what he sees when he looks at me is not what I see. You know, and I'm like, well, what do you like about me? He's like, you're loving, you're kind. You know, I'm adventurous and smart. And we make each other laugh all the time. We have so much in common, you know. And I know that.

[00:50:59] I feel that with him. That he's, what has kept us together this whole time is that we actually just really like each other. Yeah. He's my best friend. You have to love shit. Just got to really like him. Yeah. I mean, he's, we have so much fun together. Emless things to talk about. Like I said, he's even more chatty than me. You know, so the two of us together, we're the best double date ever. We have actually a lot of friends who have their first date with people they bring us. Because we're just, you know. Yeah. We love each other. And it's clear, you know. And I feel secure in it. It's a secure love. Oh, man.

[00:51:29] I'm going to get annoyed and envious. So just shut up already. Sorry. No, I'm just playing. I feel very lucky. Someone who wants to kill themselves every day feels lucky. How about that? To have him? Yeah. Yeah. Well, I understand the context. But it's also fascinating because some people would say, you've been cursed to have a brain that says they want out every day. Oh, that's, it is a curse. All right. So you're, these things can coexist. These, yeah, they definitely coexist. From 18 years old on, have there ever been days, and I know for a big chunk of that you

[00:51:58] were drinking and then for the other chunk you weren't, where you wish those, either of those attempts had worked. Yeah. I think about when I was 31, when I overdosed and I stopped drinking, as much as I wish it had happened, I also then know what I would have missed out on. And I would have missed out on a lot of suffering, but I also would have missed out on a lot of awesome stuff. I don't know what the future holds for myself. And looking forward, you know, you're saying like, what does life look like 40 years from now? Oh my God. I don't know. I don't, I don't know.

[00:52:26] How about one year from now if we had an update episode? If I were to guess a year from now, I'm still alive, still, still ideating, waiting for the other shoe to drop. But while that shoe is dropping or whatever else you could do with that expression, you're doing a lot of cool shit. Yeah. It's interesting. I'm, I'm, I'm pretty active person. You know, I, I try really hard to be emotionally healthy. Like I've been therapy. I exercise, I eat well, you know, I talk to people about it. I'm, I'm trying all the, I'm doing everything I think I can do.

[00:52:57] I, like I said, I love traveling. That makes me so happy, so happy. And so having, you know, a trip to look forward to is huge. Having something to look forward to. Yeah. But I'm not having kids. We're not buying a house, at least anytime soon, especially not in California. Maybe the earthquake will take you out. Fingers crossed. I have fingers crossed. Just to my audience, Lee crossed her fingers. I didn't tell her. We're about, I'm about a mile from the fault line. All right. Well, you're positioning yourself pretty well for that sort of.

[00:53:24] Your husband's a good friend, a close friend, a great friend, partner, but, but there's a but. Specifically around suicide, wanting to kill yourself, thinking about killing yourself. How many people can you talk to where you're feeling good during that conversation? Feeling good talking about suicide? Yeah. I mean, none. Most people can't talk to almost anyone about what they're going through, right? Yeah. And when they do, they quickly learn that was a mistake. Yeah. Some people have some people where they can talk and at least they don't feel worse during or after. Maybe one.

[00:53:54] I have like one friend, you know, she's like, well, I hope you don't do that, but she doesn't seem freaked out by it. Is she the AA friend? No. She's one of my old drinking buddies, actually. There's pretty, there's, there are very few people. Very few people. I'm pretty, I'm pretty quiet about that aspect of it. I guess ultimately because I, I don't want to make other people, I don't want to hear it, frankly. I don't want to hear the concern because it's so personal and I don't want to explain myself because it's so complicated. And it's why I was wanted to talk to you.

[00:54:24] And I'm very grateful for that. What about myths and misconceptions? About suicide? Yeah. Suicide or suicide related things. The big ones that stand out that when you hear them, it makes you just your blood boil, so to speak. I think that people who are doing it are selfish. That really frustrates me because I think of it as somebody who's hurting so badly and that all they want is to escape the hurt.

[00:54:48] And so then to judge them for escaping that hurt is, that's, that's, that's hard to hear. I guess in some sense it's, and in fact, I actually remember telling my dad when he told me that he wanted to kill himself that it was selfish. But he had two children at home. He had two young children at home and a, and a wife who is mentally unstable and he would have left us with her. I don't, I don't know how to answer that. Otherwise, maybe just the selfishness part of it. Life is amazing and life is wonderful. It is, but it's also horrible.

[00:55:18] You know, when I think about like my life, yeah, my life looks great. For a lot of people, life is really horrible. The level of missing, like some people don't have, they've never been in an environment where trauma and abuse are the daily. Yeah, right. And they don't know, they don't understand what that was, especially when it's childhood trauma. They don't understand that it literally rewires your brain. It's really hard to live like this.

[00:55:47] You know, like living as a person who wants to die all the time is extremely hard because I can't do it right now. I have to figure out how to live just day by day. I wonder how many other people out there are in your kind of a similar situation. There's got to be, right? I don't know. Yeah. But we don't know because most people aren't going to talk about it. They're not going to find this podcast. They're not going to talk to me or others. It's not going to be out there. And if it's not out there until we can read minds or do some sort of sci-fi shit where

[00:56:16] I can know what someone's thinking or feeling a thousand miles away, we just don't get to know. Maybe you read a good book and someone wrote a book and they, I talked to someone recently who just wrote a memoir. It's called Undead. Not a bad name. And it wasn't my title. And it was just a very simple book called Undead, like Story of My Suicide or something. But she got published. Oh, wow. It's going to be in the bookstores. Like she nailed it.

[00:56:42] Well, interestingly enough, I think fame seems notoriety anyway is like my worst nightmare. I don't think she wants to be famous either. I think she would like to sell some books though. Yeah. I mean, money's great, right? Yeah. You know what the, you know who Suicide got to me? Even though I think they were very different. Robin Williams fucked me up. But he also was dealing with a specific condition that I don't remember the name of it, but that sounds like it was different than a lot of it. Like the Bourdain Spade type. And they were dealing with their own stuff too, of course.

[00:57:12] The one who got me a lot was number one, Chester Buddington. Yeah. Really upset me. And then also the lead singer of the band Frightened Rabbit. He killed himself. Problem drinker, chronically depressed. And he drowned himself in the North Sea. They're a Scottish band. And that one crushed me probably more than anyone's. Interesting. Because I felt like, and with Chester too, I felt like, I heard Chester, when he talked

[00:57:39] about his past, I felt I had the same feelings. Even though our upbringing was different, I feel what he felt. When I read his lyrics, his lyrics can actually bring me to tears. I'm not even particularly a Linkin Park fan, but I'm connected with him emotionally because of how open he's been about it. And so the fact that he was so open and he changed so many lives and it still wasn't enough. But that's the telling part of it all, isn't it? That tells you.

[00:58:08] If one is willing to just step back for a moment, which rarely happens in my experience, it's just that tells you the pain. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And it's hard to articulate the pain too, right? Of course. A lot of what we're talking about is hard to articulate, actually. It is. That's why you and I are fucking geniuses, because we don't. The despair that I feel, it overwhelms me. I'm not really sure where to place it. I feel kind of frozen.

[00:58:36] I feel kind of frozen in life, I guess, because the despair overwhelms me. And that goes in with, I don't know how I'm going to make it to be an old person. I'm like, am I really just, am I going to do this for the next 40 years? I think you're like a 50-50 shot. Yeah. Also, we have so many, I'm not going to even hone in on one memoir title for you, because like four or five came up. So we need to outsource this to somebody and take all of them and choose one, because it's overwhelming as well. All right.

[00:59:04] So a question I don't usually ask these days, but any words to your younger self? You pick the age. Words to my younger self. It's going to be a long life. Done. You just did another memoir title. Fuck, you're good at this. It's going to be a long life, little Lee. Let me ask you a really, let me end my questions this way, and then I want you to add whatever else you want. I'm in no rush at all. So if somebody simply asks you this question, and you're not allowed to use the word brain in your answer. Okay. Then the question is, Lee, why do you want to die?

[00:59:34] So unfair of me. I'm trying to phrase it without using the word brain. Well, because that's the only way you have responded about it, I think, thus far. So if it's not possible, then you don't have to answer it. But is there a way to answer the, why don't you want to be alive in any other way? The amount of emotional suffering I have doesn't outweigh, or it outweighs the good stuff that happens. And I just see darkness. Work sucks.

[01:00:04] And I, you know, we're all like wage slaves. And I see this compression of power and wealth. And I'm like, man, we got a lot of suffering ahead of us as a species. And I see all the places we've gone wrong, all of the animals and life that we've destroyed. And I'm not sure that I want to be a part of it. The destruction of the earth is really unforgivable. Cool.

[01:00:31] That's part of the reason I have kids, you know, not the main reason, but it's a big part of it is that I feel like I'm bringing them into a really broken world. And I know how much I suffer in that world. And knowing the, you know, history of mental illness that my family, that I would be passing on, I can't do that to a child. I love that child too much to invite them into the suffering. And like, are there great things about life too? Sure. Sure. It's not all misery all the time. You know, like I have a dog and a cat. I love my animals.

[01:01:00] A dog and a cat? Well, I got one of my cats. The cat's right here. The dog's on the ground. Yeah. Yeah. I love animals. And yet. And yet. What's the rest of your day like? It's early afternoon there in sunny Berkeley, California. After I get off the phone with you, I'm going to go smoke a big fatty and go talk to my neighbor. What else do you want to talk about? What else do you want to share? I don't know. I guess, you know, I was thinking more about like what frustrates me, what people say, like myths. One of them is that it's worth it. To stay alive is worth it. Yeah. Like in what sense is it worth it?

[01:01:30] Like, like, yeah, like there's, there's good experiences to be had, but to say that to someone like you don't know anything about them, you know, like you don't know what they've been through. What's what the state of the brain is. You don't know what the relationships are like. And so saying it could get better, like maybe like you were talking about the one guest you had earlier who's like life is not, does not look like mine. And like telling someone like him, oh, it gets better. It's worth it. You know, maybe, maybe that would resonate with him, but it would not resonate with me. I'm like my brain. I can be medicated.

[01:01:59] I can talk about stuff, but it's not going to be fixed. I talked to my therapist about that, that like my brain is, has been rewired by my experiences. Yes. I'll probably to some extent have these issues for the rest of my life. And that's a lot to think about. You're like, yeah. And where do you draw the line of like, this is how it's going to be. I'm going to try to accept it or am I going to keep fighting it? This is like one of these big things that everyone deals with or a lot of people. I don't know. I haven't reached it yet.

[01:02:25] At least for me, my brain health, I can cope. You know, I can figure out coping mechanisms, which is what I do. I'm just trying to cope. I'm not going to be healed. My brain will not. I just don't believe that I'm going to fix it. But I have to just live with it. And that's a really distressing thought. And then there would be people that says, well, if you don't think you can fix it, then you're manifesting that. And it's like, well, we're in this like caught in this loop of like, okay, fine. Like, but I'm 42.

[01:02:55] Like I may know. And I've tried it all. You know, I've tried everything. I've given up a lot. I've sacrificed a lot. I've put a lot of time in, you know, I talk to people. I do all the things I'm supposed to do. Right. And yet I still feel like life is suffering. The Buddhist, like it's the whole Buddhist thing. Like that's like the first sentence in Buddhism, isn't it? Life is suffering. I think about Buddhism a lot. One of the things that I actually used to have it on my desk at work was something about

[01:03:24] releasing your desire for material things as a key to happiness. And I do believe that, you know, obviously like there's a certain threshold we need to reach to be comfortable, but like I know for myself, my happiness does not come through material things. You know, my happiness comes with relationships and experiences and things like that, but it's not, I'm a firm believer that material success is not the way, the key to happiness. I mean, look at the people who've had material success and still end it.

[01:03:50] However, let me just say one thing, whether we go, whether it's material or access to resources, I mean, it can help. Sure. Like, let's not pretend that if I, you know, and it's going to sound like a silly example, but I could talk at length about this and give very good examples. But like, look, you love to travel. That's material. Yeah. Yeah. That helps. You have a bad back. Going to a good doctor helps. Getting a massage every day could help. Having access to fresher, gooder, gooder, better food. That is real. And that does help.

[01:04:19] Do people have that and still kill themselves? Of course. Yeah. But those things are real and they do help. And you know that when you don't have them. And it's also one of the things, too, that like I acknowledge that my feelings are coming from a place of privilege. And I first world problems. That's what I think about when my and I hate that. That's not that's another thing. I hate that. I know. First world problems and the privilege. And this has come up recently, but me, too. And it's like I really got pissed at somebody. And I'm like, look, I don't give a shit that I'm a middle class because I'm going to go

[01:04:49] through all the check marks that make me non-marginalized. Right. So white, middle class, able bodied, straight, North American male. Don't fucking tell me that I can't suffer and I can't voice that. Totally. Totally. Fuck you. There's no competition for suffering. Right. That's bullshit. And most people don't think that way. But it was implied in kind of a weird dynamic. That's your shit. I got to just step back. That's your fucking shit that you're dealing with. And I'm sorry that you're in that space, that all men like me are fucking evil.

[01:05:16] Shouldn't be able to voice any pain because we've had it good for so long. It's like you're being an ignorant asshole, but you're also probably dealing with your own trauma. And who knows where that's coming from? And that makes me a very bad podcast host when I'm in. Now, that's when we either don't have the conversation or Sean does a lot of editing. But usually in this space, I'm not that way. But I'm real and it bothers me. Well, it's also it's just my reality.

[01:05:41] Am I you know, I think what I think about my my my emotional suffering, I think then about children in Gaza, you know, and I'm like what they're experiencing is so very different than what I'm experiencing. They are experiencing this is like life and death. I mean, it's life and death for me, too, but not the same way. And I think like, who the fuck am I? Yeah. To complain. But the reality is this is my reality. Yeah. This is my reality. And there is no competition for suffering and they are suffering, too.

[01:06:11] Yeah, I am suffering and they're suffering. And maybe in my shoes, they'd suffer, too. I mean, I do think and I see a lot, you know, I hear people like with the least are the happiest people. And I I part of me, you know, thinks as somebody who, you know, tends to not think that materialism brings I'm not sure that our way of being is the right way to be. I don't know. And I don't think there's one way for all. I'm a super minimalist. I've lived in Mexico. I've tried to downgrade. I'm still miserable.

[01:06:38] My brain doesn't tell me to kill me every day, but we are similar in that I am almost sure I will stay miserable to the end of my life. And I bet similar to you, too, because I'm thinking of you in Belize, but though I'm sure there could be many other examples. I could go swimming later and be in a nice little flow state. And I can go to my dance class later and be dancing with that cutie and be in a nice good mood. Not like I'm walking around all day.

[01:07:06] I mean, I do kind of have a resting asshole face, but I can enjoy life. And this podcast is one of those things that I enjoy. So it's not black or white. And I think most grownups beyond a seventh grade level of intellect understand the complexities of that and they can coexist. Well, it's not situational, right? The problem is that it's not a circumstantial thing. And I think when I was younger, and I think this is also very common when I did try to

[01:07:33] flee and go elsewhere, you know, there is a, and I think that's just resilience or hope or maybe a little youthful naivete, but of just, if I go there and do that, it'll be okay. And, you know, sometimes there's a honeymoon period and it is, but I have learned at this point in my life, I am going to regress back to this norm. This norm is miserable. That is not hyperbole. I don't need you to believe me or not. Cause I would take not this any day. Oh yeah.

[01:07:59] So believe me when I say that it is not for any other reason than me simply sharing the truth. Do you just try to accept that shit or do you keep trying to fight and be less miserable? Like for me, I don't know. Like, it's just a matter of like getting through the day. I have a conversation at two o'clock or one o'clock with this person. I know I have to do this. I know a long list of stuff because if I don't, within two months, I'm going to run out of money. I know I have to go to the gym later and I might meet somebody tomorrow. Like that's just all it is though. It's just that.

[01:08:29] And you're like, what's the fucking point? It is a lot of the like lacking depth. What's the point? Final words, Lee in California. We're not alone in how we feel. There's nothing wrong with it. I feel like we're all doing the best we can. As you said, you would not choose this life for yourself. I would not choose this life for myself. I would not choose my brain. I would give anything to have optimism. It does not seem to be my reality.

[01:08:56] It's so fascinating that you, but yet you cohabitate with somebody who does have that philosophy. So it's like you're constantly reminded. What? I mean, I'm not going to pretend for a second that his optimism doesn't drive me crazy because it doesn't seem realistic to me. I'm like, well, that's just not how life is. I don't know how he does it. I don't know. He just, he's happy and he's optimistic. And. Oh, I know why I can give you an answer right now. It's very simple. You have two different brains. Yeah. It is that simple. Yeah, you're totally right. You either get it or you don't get it. Yeah.

[01:09:26] You do. I do. We're not the same person. We have different brains, but we did have a good conversation for 90 minutes. I think. Do you think you'll listen to it when it comes out? I don't know. I guess I'm afraid of what I'll sound like. Well, I will. I'm curious. I'm curious to see how you edit it. I appreciate you talking to me. I appreciate you talking to me. I really do. And I appreciate what you do. Trying. We keep trying for a little while and see where it goes. And then one day expire. I got to run. I hope your day is decent.

[01:09:56] And I hope our paths cross soon. Bye. Bye. Take it easy. As always, thanks so much for listening and all of your support. Special thanks to Lee in California. Thanks, Lee. If you are a suicide attempt survivor or ideator and you'd like to talk, please reach out. Hello at suicidenoted.com. And I do believe we are at about summer. So happy-ish summer to you. And that's all for this week's episode. Stay strong. Do the best you can. I'll talk to you soon.