Kelley in Arizona

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_02] I turned 57 on the 30th. I spent a long time feeling really disappointed that I spent so much of my life not wanting to live it, and so I didn't live it, just in a mindset that was so hooked up. I have not been suicidal in two years almost. Gosh, I wish I was like this my whole life. I felt like I was cheated.

[00:00:43] [SPEAKER_01] Hey there, my name is Sean, and this is Suicide Noted. On this podcast, I talk with suicide attempt survivors and ideators so that we can hear their stories. Every year around the world, millions of people try to take their own lives, and we almost never talk about it. We certainly don't talk about it enough, and when we do talk about it, when we engage with people in any kind of pain, all kinds of pain, most of us, we're not very good at it.

[00:01:05] [SPEAKER_01] So one of my goals with this podcast and some other adjacent initiatives is to have more conversations and hopefully better conversations with survivors, in large part to help more people in more places. Hopefully feel a little less shitty and a little less alone. Now, if you are an attempt survivor or ideator and you'd like to talk, please reach out. I'd love to talk with you. Hello at suicidenoted.com. You can learn more about this podcast in the show notes, the podcast description, and the website. As well as LinkedIn, I've been a bit more active on there.

[00:01:35] [SPEAKER_01] In the last couple of months. And when I say learn, I'm talking about SN Live, a survivor-led presentation. Less Shitty, Less Alone, a presentation that I give. Sponsoring the podcast, supporting the podcast with a tax-deductible donation or volunteering, and my private audio practice, starting with The Missing Record. So that is all available in all of those places. Of course, you can always just reach out and email me if you have a question about any of those. However you are involved, maybe this is your first time ever listening, and perhaps it'll be the only time you ever listen.

[00:02:05] [SPEAKER_01] I appreciate it. Thanks very much. Remember, we're talking about suicide here on this podcast. My guests and I don't hold back. So please take that into account before you listen or as you listen. But I do hope you listen because there is so much to learn. Today, I am talking with Kelly. Kelly lives in Arizona, and she is a suicide attempt survivor. Hey, Kelly.

[00:02:26] [SPEAKER_02] I am so happy to meet you. I'm so excited that I found your podcast.

[00:02:31] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, you are?

[00:02:32] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. I am so happy. I wish I would have found it a long time ago.

[00:02:36] [SPEAKER_01] Why are you excited about that?

[00:02:38] [SPEAKER_02] Well, I really think a lot of people that could tell their stories didn't survive. You know, they didn't make it to be here to talk about it. And so I've not found a community of people like us. And so to have found it, I was like, oh my gosh.

[00:02:56] [SPEAKER_01] It's just amazing that there's such little support for people. Amazing isn't the right word. It's just the word that popped out of my mouth. So what is your connection, personal connection with suicide or suicidality?

[00:03:10] [SPEAKER_02] Well, I'll just tell you, you know, I have been suicidal for a very long time. And so leading up to it, there was, I don't know, it's so bizarre. When Whitney Houston died, I subscribed to People magazine. She was on the cover. And I read that she had taken a bunch of pills and gotten a bathtub full of water. When I read that story in my mind, it was like the day I met my husband.

[00:03:39] [SPEAKER_02] I was like, I'm going to marry that man. Just some weird idea. And in my mind, I thought that's how I'm going to kill myself. I already had made my mind up. You know what I mean? It was just, oh, well, that's the answer.

[00:03:50] [SPEAKER_01] Most people didn't see that and want to kill themselves. That's the part that gets left out. Yeah. Well, not on my podcast anyway. So you, Kelly, have a thing, a brand, and we'll get into it, called The Suicide Solution. And I want to tell you something, Kelly. The moment I saw that, there was a little part of me that I was like, here we go. And I don't know why, but you know probably enough of what's out there and the rhetoric and the narratives.

[00:04:19] [SPEAKER_01] And I'm not saying they're bad or problematic, but you know what the mainstream says. Whether you're aligned with that or not is cool because we're grownups and we can talk and disagree even. But a solution, oh, is there a solution? Okay. So then I got into it a little bit and I'm looking at the site and it's a simply and nicely designed website, the suicidesolution.com. And then I clicked a little bit and then I see something else that I would like to read, if I may, with your permission to the audience. Yeah.

[00:04:46] [SPEAKER_01] Because it's something I haven't seen before and it is very aligned with some of the things that come up here and some of my frustrations. We tend to focus on the person who is thinking about it in their lives in terms of like, just talk about it. And we tend to talk much less about or to the people around them. You wrote a letter and it's downloadable on your website.

[00:05:04] [SPEAKER_03] Yes.

[00:05:04] [SPEAKER_01] Can I read this in full? Yes. It says, letter to a safe person, dear blank. I'm looking for someone I can come to when my thoughts start getting the best of me. I really trust you. So I wanted to see what this might actually look like if you were open to being that person for me. First, I don't need you to fix anything. I don't need solutions or advice. I just need someone who can sit with me, even if it's just over text or on the phone. That's where I feel safest. You don't have to respond with wisdom or opinions.

[00:05:35] [SPEAKER_01] Just listen. Maybe you'll cry with me. Maybe you'll sit in silence with me. There might be moments when I need to say out loud how desperately I feel like giving up. That doesn't mean I'm going to. It just means the thoughts are starting to scare me and I need to release them before they get too big. Please don't be scared. I just need to speak the thoughts out loud so they lose their grip on me. Please don't use any of this against me. It took a lot of courage to ask you. This is deeply private.

[00:06:02] [SPEAKER_01] And for whatever reason, being able to tell just one trusted person helps me feel safer. I don't need you to understand it. I just need someone who can hold this space with me while I figure things out. Well written, Kelly.

[00:06:15] [SPEAKER_02] Thank you.

[00:06:16] [SPEAKER_01] When did you do that?

[00:06:17] [SPEAKER_02] I wrote it while I was writing my book. Unfortunately, my safe person would have been my ex-husband when I was in the mental hospital. I discovered a lot of things about him that I kind of already knew that it was confirmed. He was scheduled to come in to have the safe person talk with a psychiatrist and me. This very day, I just so happened to check my balance and my account had been closed.

[00:06:47] [SPEAKER_02] And I was like, what? So literally, my account's closed. I have no access to any money. And he started a new account and was just about to get a $20,000 bonus. So I was like, oh, well, he's not going to be my safe person. So I called the psychiatrist. Psychiatrist was upset with me. I know you have these things going on, but you need your husband. I'm like, okay, did you hear what I just said? He is not safe. I actually asked my best friend, will you take his place? And she said yes.

[00:07:17] [SPEAKER_02] She came in. They said something similar to those things is, as long as Kelly makes a pact with you, that she will not on your watch end her life. Then she will feel safe enough to come to you when she's feeling this way, because most people will get out of the hospital and attempt again and be successful, which is what I wanted to do. I thought, okay, for some reason, just saying out loud that I had this pact with my best friend made me feel good.

[00:07:45] [SPEAKER_02] But ultimately, after my divorce, I started dating women and she completely abandoned me. So that's why I say it's so important to have a safe person. And I felt like it was so important to be able to have the words to, I mean, what do you say? You know, if you don't have the words, I'd be like, I'm scared. I don't want to tell you. Don't you call me tops. But then I know they're very hard to find too.

[00:08:11] [SPEAKER_01] I've never seen anything like that. What I mean is that you did it and then you made it public. You made it accessible. Like I downloaded it. If I were ever going to write a book or ever give a speech that had anything to do with any of this. And there was a point in time where I tried. Totally different conversation. I learned what gets paid for in the suicide prevention industry and what does not. But it would be similar to that. And it would be an expanded version of essentially, what does it mean to listen well? What does it look like? What does it sound like?

[00:08:38] [SPEAKER_01] Why is advice potentially harmful? Like just really breaking it down. And I get really into that. And I try, when I read that note, I'm like, that's kind of what I try to do here, right? As best I can. And I fuck it up sometimes. But I think mostly I'm aware when I fuck it up, which is a good thing. I don't want to make it about me. I just appreciate that note. I bet there are people using it and I bet they're able to have conversations they wouldn't have had otherwise.

[00:09:01] [SPEAKER_02] I hope so. I really hope so.

[00:09:03] [SPEAKER_01] Have you had anybody reach out to you and tell you that?

[00:09:05] [SPEAKER_02] I've had people reach out and say they're very touched by it. Could they have permission to use it? Which obviously is on my website for free. I want anybody to use it.

[00:09:13] [SPEAKER_01] And you know, it's actually written right on the bottom. You can download this or print it or share it.

[00:09:17] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, whatever you want to do with it. Because I just, in my heart, I believe that what I think is important about the letter is to let people off the hook, which is basically to say, I don't need you to do anything for me, really. I just need to be able to say out loud, I want to off myself right now. I want to literally go over a bridge and run my car off the edge of it. You know, just really just be as real and raw as you can and then just not freak out about it.

[00:09:44] [SPEAKER_01] What percentage of people, legitimately, what percentage of people do you think, even after reading that note, can do that?

[00:09:51] [SPEAKER_02] Okay, you think the individual that is going to be the safe person?

[00:09:55] [SPEAKER_01] The safe person.

[00:09:56] [SPEAKER_02] I really wish I knew the answer. I mean, I can talk to, I have talked to somebody who, the first person I really talked through not killing themselves was a girl who was very suicidal, very young. Her boyfriend was also very suicidal and he beat her to it. Literally blew his brains out downstairs while she was upstairs with her children. She's on the phone with me, totally wasted describing this in detail.

[00:10:25] [SPEAKER_03] Oh, wow.

[00:10:26] [SPEAKER_02] And I was able to have no emotions over it, completely stay with her that whole time. But I can relate and I understand. So if you're somebody who, it's hard, Sean, because if you're somebody who doesn't understand, can you do it without, that's why I say it's hard to find.

[00:10:44] [SPEAKER_01] I think there are people that, and who knows how, it might be a genetic gift. I don't know how they can do it. That are not or have never been suicidal. I think there's probably a higher percentage of them who have been because they've been through it. Makes sense. I think the biggest gap we have by far in the entire, I don't know, I'm calling it an industry, but that's not the right word. Actually, there are huge gaps like the entire hospital system, right? So arguably that's much bigger.

[00:11:10] [SPEAKER_01] And we could go into all kinds of other things that are real prevention, like having a stable home and having healthy food and having money. But the ability for people to do what you're asking people to do in that note. I have yet to figure out a way to make that course. I've thought about it a lot, but I don't know how because I think it gets into some really deep stuff. For example, yeah, people might not be aware that they continually sort of invalidate somebody, right?

[00:11:38] [SPEAKER_01] But when we really get into the discomfort and fear around it, that's heavy, deep stuff that I don't think Sean can, it's not my lane. Whether it's because I'm not a therapist or not trained, like I can give you some tactics and a mindset, if you will, but I don't know if I can make you less afraid. You've got your own stuff and your own traumas and your own history and your own. And so it's hard. That's, I guess what you said. And I agree.

[00:12:02] [SPEAKER_02] But like I said, I hope that the letter makes some people step back and go, oh, okay. Because to me, if I was that person, and I don't know for sure because I have been suicidal and I've attempted, but if I wasn't and somebody came to me with that letter, I think I could go, oh, okay. So, well, one, to me, it's prideful. It's prideful if I were to say, oh, I can't help you because what if you did that on my watch and I had to feel guilty for the rest of my life? Well, it's not about you. It's about the person.

[00:12:31] [SPEAKER_02] Regardless, if you're the person, it is scary. I understand that it's scary, but at least you can say, hey, I'm going to agree to be this person for you. I really want to do this for you, but you have to promise me, like I'm looking at you in your eyes. Do you promise me that if you call me or you text me and you're in the suicidal ideation right then, that you will not do that when we're having this conversation or after? You'll sleep on it. You'll do something.

[00:12:56] [SPEAKER_02] Because for that night, I want to be there for you, but you got to promise me until morning because a lot of times that's how I save my own self.

[00:13:05] [SPEAKER_01] I don't know if I would accept that. If you're serious, you wouldn't. Right. Like if I'm ready to go, I'm not making you, there's no deal making. For me, that might be a tough one. I might say yes and not mean it, but nonetheless, it's a simple, well-written, meaningful, important letter. And I just haven't seen anything like it. I was just like, whoa, and I nose around, I don't research suicide, I'm not a academic. Yeah. I kind of know what's out there. Most of it, I think, isn't very good. So it was intriguing to me.

[00:13:33] [SPEAKER_01] It was interesting and it's sort of almost innovative, kind of like this podcast. So we have a lot in common. I do not have a book. You do. We shall talk about that book. But first, you brought something up. You said you wrote that note when you were in the hospital or around that time?

[00:13:46] [SPEAKER_02] No, I wrote the note when I was writing the book.

[00:13:47] [SPEAKER_01] Oh, okay. And when was that?

[00:13:49] [SPEAKER_02] I just finished it. It just came out in July. So it was probably earlier in the year.

[00:13:54] [SPEAKER_01] When was the hospital stay?

[00:13:55] [SPEAKER_02] 13 years ago.

[00:13:56] [SPEAKER_01] So I'm misunderstanding something because I thought that you used that note or the idea of that note in the hospital to find a safe person.

[00:14:03] [SPEAKER_02] No, the safe person idea came to me from a psychiatrist. Okay. I thought that that would be my husband and it ended up being my best friend. And that was the idea that, oh, you could have a safe person. But I had a bad experience regarding the safe person, which led me when I was writing my book to go, well, how can I help somebody? How do you even find this person?

[00:14:25] [SPEAKER_01] How would you go about it? That hospital stay was 13 years ago. Was that your only hospital stay?

[00:14:30] [SPEAKER_02] No, I've had two. But that was a serious attempt that I was on life support for days.

[00:14:35] [SPEAKER_01] How many suicide attempts do you have? Two. When was your first attempt?

[00:14:40] [SPEAKER_02] 2000 and I want to say 10.

[00:14:43] [SPEAKER_01] I know when the second one was because I can do math. So that would have been actually, I'm not very good. 26 to 2013?

[00:14:51] [SPEAKER_02] Mm-hmm. 2010 and 2013.

[00:14:53] [SPEAKER_01] So I'm guessing the early 10s were rough for you.

[00:14:55] [SPEAKER_02] My whole life has been rough.

[00:14:57] [SPEAKER_01] I was about to follow up with, I'm sure it was also rough before them too and probably since.

[00:15:02] [SPEAKER_02] Yes.

[00:15:03] [SPEAKER_01] What I don't know is where are you?

[00:15:05] [SPEAKER_02] I am about to be 57 and I decided two years ago almost to, I grew up in Texas. And so I decided to move to Arizona just because I had nothing holding me back. No reasons not to. I'd stayed in Texas most of my life. Have never really lived life, you know, or one that I wanted to.

[00:15:28] [SPEAKER_02] And so I moved and I have my address in Arizona and my youngest daughter, my grandson followed me. And so the plan was I'll stay at Airbnbs in two or three different places, decide what city I want to, you know, get stable in and stay. And by the fourth month I was like, why would I ever want to sign a lease again? It's been almost two years and I, the first year I spent all around Arizona and this year around the United States. I'm currently in Colorado Springs.

[00:15:55] [SPEAKER_01] And I don't know if you know this or how much you've listened to the podcast, but I did a tour last October. I saw. And I was in Colorado Springs. And I was also, I was also in Tucson.

[00:16:05] [SPEAKER_02] In Texas, right?

[00:16:07] [SPEAKER_01] And I was also in outside of Dallas in a small town called Kemp.

[00:16:11] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, no, that's it.

[00:16:12] [SPEAKER_01] So yeah. But we didn't know each other then. How did you find me?

[00:16:17] [SPEAKER_02] Whenever, after my attempt, right after my attempt, I actually taught life coaches. I was a trainer and I was really good at helping other people. I just couldn't coach my own self. I thought, well, I'll, instead of just being a life coach and training life coaches, I'll start something called the survivor coach because one of my students had heard my suicide story. She had lost her sister to suicide. And she walks up to me and she's like, you're the survivor coach. And it just stuck with me. How long ago was the survivor coach?

[00:16:47] [SPEAKER_02] That was, I mean, right after my attempt, probably a year, year after.

[00:16:51] [SPEAKER_01] Are you still a survivor coach?

[00:16:53] [SPEAKER_02] No, because, well, as you know, when you're in this space, it's hard to make any money. The people that I needed to help had no money. I did it as long as I could. So I had maxed out all my credit cards. I had no money left.

[00:17:05] [SPEAKER_01] Unbelievable. I know I'm in a delusional world. If you do that work well, I'm going to make the assumption you were good at it. Because if you're not doing it well, that's a problem. I know this is called, you become a nonprofit, but people don't understand how hard it is to get and get donations, especially when you're doing something in this space. And it's a little different than the way the rest of them do it. I know why 988 gets all the funding, but the warm lines have two volunteers and half the week they're closed is because they have, they're working on nothing on fumes.

[00:17:35] [SPEAKER_01] Yet they're the place you can go and have a safe conversation. This is fascinating. So survivor coach, no more, but there was still a book coming. You're 57 years old. How does it feel to be 57 years old and hear that number? Cause I'm not too far behind and it fucks my brain up.

[00:17:50] [SPEAKER_02] I turned 57 on the 30th this month.

[00:17:53] [SPEAKER_01] Mazel tov.

[00:17:54] [SPEAKER_02] I spent a long time feeling really disappointed that I spent so much of my life not wanting to live it. And so I didn't live it just in a mindset that was so fucked up and that I have felt like I have not been suicidal in two years almost. And gosh, I wish I was like this my whole life. I felt like I was cheated, you know?

[00:18:19] [SPEAKER_01] Right.

[00:18:20] [SPEAKER_02] But then I had to put a spin on it. Okay. We're about the same age. And so you could easily say, hold up, hold up, hold up.

[00:18:27] [SPEAKER_01] I didn't quite say we were about, but go on.

[00:18:31] [SPEAKER_02] Okay. So let's just use myself. I'm like, man, I'm about to be 57 years old. Or I can say I'm only about to be 57, man. I got 30 more years ahead of me. You know, as far as I know, maybe it's perspective.

[00:18:45] [SPEAKER_01] A hundred percent. But you bring, you bring something up that I think a lot of people don't recognize when you're not suicidal anymore or the meds start to kick in and you feel better. I think most people, not all, but a lot of people are like, that's great. Finally, go enjoy life. However, you got to reconcile something, if that's the right word. You got to deal with what you now realize or better understand because you're in a better state of what you've missed. And that to me is a really, really hard space.

[00:19:11] [SPEAKER_02] It is a very hard place.

[00:19:13] [SPEAKER_01] But you, the reality is you haven't been suicidal. I believe you said in two years, but now, you know, you've been, you were suicidal for decades and you missed out on some life. That sucks, man. Like, let's not pretend.

[00:19:25] [SPEAKER_02] Well, I had a dual problems and that was, okay, I've missed out on my whole life. I feel like I was cheated. Basically. I feel like not to sound like the victim, but I was, you know, I mean that people are simultaneously. I had a lifelong relationship with church and God that I left.

[00:19:45] [SPEAKER_01] Oh, what denomination?

[00:19:47] [SPEAKER_02] My mom, I grew up in a Pentecostal environment and then Southern Baptist. And so when I left religion, I was so angry. Oh my God. I believe this my entire life. I've never been free. I've never been free. I spent my whole life in religion, yet I felt judged. I felt shame, condemnation, guilt. I felt no good feelings. And so I didn't get free until the last two years.

[00:20:15] [SPEAKER_01] When did you leave religion?

[00:20:16] [SPEAKER_02] 2013.

[00:20:17] [SPEAKER_01] All right. This is going to be a big year that we're going to talk about. Does anybody in your old religious community know that you're bisexual or gay? I don't know.

[00:20:25] [SPEAKER_02] Oh yeah, they've all abandoned me.

[00:20:26] [SPEAKER_01] Let's go to Texas. This is hard for people and it would be hard for me. Most people are used to therapy and they spend hours talking about their childhood. We're not doing that.

[00:20:35] [SPEAKER_02] Sure. I picture it like a solid line with some dots across it and I'll just give you the dots. Yep. I'm going to give you the first dot and a story and it shaped the rest of my entire life that I didn't figure out until last year. So my mom, my parents, I have a brother and sister nine and 10 years older than me. My parents got divorced when I was three. I went to my father's house for the first time for his visit. I was probably four now and he loved the water. I love the water. We go to the pool.

[00:21:04] [SPEAKER_02] He's trying to teach me how to swim and he teaches me how to doggy paddle. Got it down really quick. He has asthma. Nobody would ever admit that I had asthma. For whatever reason, I don't know how, I have no idea why. Both of my parents are deceased so I can't go back and say, what the hell were you thinking? So I get in the water at the shallow end. He's trying to teach me to swim. I pick it up. So he's like, okay, I'm going to wait at the deep end, swim all the way over. So I go halfway and I can't breathe. So I go over to the side.

[00:21:34] [SPEAKER_02] Did it about three times every time getting worse. First by the fourth and I could just see him at the end of the pool, you know, looking at me so disappointed. The first time he has this, you can do it, you can do it. Second time, I was like, you could see it. He didn't believe it. You know, it's like, she's not going to do it. Come on, you can do it. You know, he's getting less and less excited. By the fourth or fifth time, I cannot breathe. I go over to the side. He goes over and I'm thinking he's going to help me. He lifts me up out of the water, walks me to my towel and leaves.

[00:22:02] [SPEAKER_02] And I could not do anything because I couldn't breathe. And I had never been to his apartment. This is the first time. That's the last of my memory. I have no memory of how I got back to him, how he found me, how I got through the asthma attack. Nothing. That seared in my brain that men will leave.

[00:22:18] [SPEAKER_01] Hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on. I got to do something. I got to do something right now. A four-year-old does not know that.

[00:22:24] [SPEAKER_02] Well, he had just left my mom.

[00:22:25] [SPEAKER_01] A later, an older version knows that probably with therapy, if I'm guessing. Or did you actually at four kind of remember thinking that? Yeah.

[00:22:33] [SPEAKER_02] So I would cry in my – I see my mom crying in bed every night. I had no idea why. But as a four-year-old, I knew it was my dad. Yeah. They're breaking up. I have no idea why. But obviously, it's my dad. Yeah. So now I'm with my dad, and he just leaves me like he's just left my mother. You know? Yes. Future Kelly realizes you better be perfect or people will leave. You better do things top-notch or they're going to leave. It was all about abandonment. For some reason, I connected. You left my mom. You just left me.

[00:23:03] [SPEAKER_02] That says if you don't do things exactly right, people are going to walk away.

[00:23:07] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. By the way, when you do things perfectly right, they also walk away.

[00:23:12] [SPEAKER_02] Exactly. Right?

[00:23:13] [SPEAKER_00] That's a really hard fucking lesson to learn.

[00:23:15] [SPEAKER_02] And people will abandon you no matter what. They could be men, Christians, not Christians. They're going to do it. I have abandoned people.

[00:23:22] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. It's part of being human. Yes. And so is sometimes people killing themselves. These are the things that are real and are uncomfortable for many people to talk about. But it's true. It is very true.

[00:24:01] [SPEAKER_02] And so he was, I idolized my brother. So it was me, my mom, my brother were packed.

[00:24:07] [SPEAKER_01] You know, we were just solid. Your religious mom was cool with your gay brother?

[00:24:11] [SPEAKER_02] No, not necessarily. She was like, I don't agree with it, but you're my child. My sister and my father were like, uh, you're not gay. Yes, actually, I am gay.

[00:24:20] [SPEAKER_00] That's just not true.

[00:24:22] [SPEAKER_02] This is not true. How can this be so? And then when they realized, yes, he is, that was the last day he ever heard from them.

[00:24:29] [SPEAKER_01] To this day?

[00:24:30] [SPEAKER_02] They've kind of, at least say happy birthday to each other, my sister and my brother, but that's the gist of it.

[00:24:35] [SPEAKER_01] Okay. Let me go back a bit. Question is, when do you start to first in your life? If you can recall, think, I don't know if I want to be here.

[00:24:42] [SPEAKER_02] Well, I honestly don't remember because, uh, so after my parents got divorced, my mom was a single mom, my father would not help her. So she worked two jobs my whole life. So I was basically in the house, in four walls, most of my life. She was very afraid for me to go out by myself, you know, order friends, overprotective basically. And so I was by myself watching TV with all my ears growing up. And so we would go to Oklahoma where she was from, visit my grandparents.

[00:25:10] [SPEAKER_02] During that time, I was molested by a cousin. I didn't say anything to my mom because as a little girl, I could see her struggle. We were very poor. I wasn't going to ask her for anything. I'd tell, you know, this is the last thing I want to burden my mom with. Fast forward, I start going to counseling. I was in like seventh grade. I never knew why I went to counseling. Okay, the end result of the counseling was that I, whatever was the reason I started counseling was because of my father.

[00:25:37] [SPEAKER_02] So I'm literally like 30 years old talking to my sister and she mentioned something about me being suicidal. I'm like, what are you talking about? She's like, don't you remember going to counseling when you're in seventh grade? Yes. I never knew why mom sent me to counseling. She's like, oh my God, you have a, did you remember having a diary? You, mom found suicide notes in there. I'm like, what? To this day, I have no recollection of it. None.

[00:26:00] [SPEAKER_01] Okay. So your mom sees them, you go to therapy.

[00:26:03] [SPEAKER_02] And I remember the end result was my mom saying, it was my dad. Is that crazy?

[00:26:06] [SPEAKER_01] Don't tell the therapist about the cousin.

[00:26:09] [SPEAKER_02] No, I told not a soul.

[00:26:11] [SPEAKER_01] Nobody. Yeah. Yeah. Like how long does it take you to talk about that?

[00:26:14] [SPEAKER_02] I was probably 14 whenever I finally told my mom. And the reason I told her is because I got this little boyfriend to prove to myself that I wasn't gay because I was molested by a female cousin and my brother had been molested by a boy. So I was like, maybe this is what makes you gay.

[00:26:32] [SPEAKER_03] Okay.

[00:27:01] [SPEAKER_01] Okay.

[00:27:02] [SPEAKER_02] So you were like, oh my God. You were like, okay, I'm going to go to church. to turn my life around. Oh, now things are a little bit better. Yeah. So I was not in church. I had a full-time job and I got into stripping. So that was how I could afford my drug habit.

[00:27:32] [SPEAKER_02] Five years after about five, six years after my son died, my mom died and she was my best friend. I was 23. She was 53. And so it was just a series of trauma after trauma after trauma that I just couldn't deal with. And then I met my ex-husband. Oh, we'll get to him, but let me back up first.

[00:27:49] [SPEAKER_01] When you were 13 or 14 years old, you were writing suicide notes that we don't remember. Whether you remember them or not, from 13 or 14 around that time to when you meet your ex-husband, now ex-husband, about 10 years go by. In that time, are you ever thinking of killing yourself?

[00:28:05] [SPEAKER_02] Yes. And I hated school so bad. I was bullied very bad. I grew up very poor, made fun of a lot. And so in school, I would think to myself, this can't be the life. I'm going to have to live like this for the rest of my life. I don't know if you've ever suffered chronic pain before, but you're like, how am I going to do this every day for eternity? But I think I was just too young to understand that suicide could actually be done. So I don't think I thought of it as in terms of suicide. I just

[00:28:33] [SPEAKER_02] thought, man, when I'm not here anymore, that's going to be awesome. I don't have to go with this bullshit anymore. So that was kind of the terms I thought of it and was longing for the day. Like, that's going to be so great when I get to leave this earth, you know, and then my kid dies. And so I was, I remember literally I held him for the last time, gave him back to the doctor. I walked outside and said out loud, I didn't think anybody was there. I didn't have any idea a nurse

[00:28:59] [SPEAKER_02] was near me. There's absolutely no reason to keep living. And so it was at that time that I really started thinking about suicide. I never had a plan though, just pondered what it would be like to not have to deal with this bullshit anymore. And I'd go through this pain.

[00:29:13] [SPEAKER_01] If I were to tell you it's somehow magically, you're going to be 57 years old one day. Would

[00:29:18] [SPEAKER_02] you believe me? No, I would say the hell I am.

[00:29:22] [SPEAKER_01] Right. Because in your mind then that's going to be whatever, 40 plus years of pain.

[00:29:26] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. There's no way. Yeah. Well, and from what I had gone through already, I'm like, I'm not, I'm not, but there's no, this is my life. This is the, I'm not one of the chosen ones. I'm just one of the ones that was dealt this hand that you have this kind of brain and mind and it's never going away. And I am not dealing with that for 40 more years. You've got to be kidding me.

[00:29:42] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. And I've done my fair amount of drugs and I actually really like drugs. A lot of people like drugs. That's why they do them, but it fucks you up.

[00:29:50] [SPEAKER_03] Yep. It does.

[00:29:51] [SPEAKER_01] So that was your life for a while too?

[00:29:54] [SPEAKER_03] Yes.

[00:29:54] [SPEAKER_01] Does it make your suicidalizations worse, better? Is it just sort of numb them out?

[00:30:00] [SPEAKER_02] It was, I would say numb them out. Yes. I didn't drink much at the time. I drank in clubs, but not like on a daily basis having it in my house. So yes, I did stay fucked up a lot. When my mom died, something happened. I don't know what, but I know that, I don't, I don't know. She knew I was on drugs. I don't know how you could not know, but she probably knew something was wrong and maybe just didn't want to admit it. I don't know. But when she died, the same funeral home that

[00:30:25] [SPEAKER_02] buried my son was about to bury my mom. It was like midnight one night and they called me and they were like, Kelly, I know your whole family doesn't want anybody to see your mom. She did not want a viewing, but we want you to come up here. I was like, what? We want you to come up here because we want to see your mom. She does not look like somebody who died of cancer. She just looks like an angel. So I go in, she looks perfect. She looks like she wasn't sick at all. She looked, I thought to myself in that, even though I'm not religious now, I thought to myself in that moment,

[00:30:54] [SPEAKER_02] if I ever wondered if there was a heaven, I believe there is one now and wherever heaven is, she must be there. She's at peace. She's not in pain. She's happy. She is finally at peace. She had a rough life too. I just laid my hand on her chest and said, I'll never touch drugs again. And I didn't. Not once. Not once. That's amazing. That's how I stopped. I think if she wouldn't have died, I probably would have died from an overdose. If you're doing that stuff today, it would be fentanyl. You'd definitely die from an overdose. Oh yeah. And I would have on purpose. Doesn't that

[00:31:23] [SPEAKER_02] make you believe in God? It makes me believe in something bigger. It's so big. I'm a drinker.

[00:31:29] [SPEAKER_01] I can't imagine anything. I mean, I'll call myself a functional drinker. Others might say, you're not quite as functional as you think, but it's in check. I'm doing this interview, but I'm a daily drinker. I'm sure there might be something that could happen in my life where I'm like, I'm never drinking again, but I can't imagine what that is. There's a reason I drink. I totally understand. Yeah, I know you do. Even though it's been a while, I don't, I don't know about drinking, at least with drugs. You meet the guy, probably pretty awesome

[00:31:53] [SPEAKER_02] at first. Oh yeah. Well, he was different. I was all into rockers and things like that. And not that he didn't like heavy metal and stuff, but he was, I don't know, something about him was different. He had been in the military, you know, like his sister got like a car for her high school graduation. He got rehab. And so once he got through rehab, he was joined the military. So he was like, or the air force, whatever it was. He's like, I'm never, I'm anti-drug completely. So we met right after my mom had passed away, he was anti-drug. So it was perfect for me to stay clean.

[00:32:22] [SPEAKER_02] He was, he was everybody's, you know, what do you, how does it say? He's every man's man. You know, he's just great guy, good looking, didn't, didn't dislike anyone. I remember asking him one time, you know, is there anybody that you don't like? And the fact that he had to stop and think about it, I was like, that's not, that's not normal. I can like rattle off 10 people right now. So he was a great father. He was a great provider. He was awesome. You know, there were worst things along the years. He would lie about stupid shit. Thought, well, he's probably lying

[00:32:52] [SPEAKER_02] about big stuff and it never caught him cheating, but caught him with, he had a major porn addiction. And so, but I thought that was the gist of it. I did not think that he would ever really cheat, you know? And so whenever I got cancer.

[00:33:07] [SPEAKER_01] Your marriage sounds pretty, pretty good. And I know you have how many kids? I have two girls. You have two girls. And I know one of them, at least one of them has their own child now. Yes. There are signs that you're starting to pick up on, but I mean, are you in your twenties at this point? Is this thirties?

[00:33:22] [SPEAKER_02] Probably thirties. Probably thirties. Yeah.

[00:33:25] [SPEAKER_01] You get cancer. How old were you when you had cancer? I was 40. I'm imagining there's a connection between the two.

[00:33:29] [SPEAKER_02] So my mom was diagnosed at 50, which, so in the medical world, the daughter should start getting checked up on 10 years earlier. So when I was 40, my husband had lost his job the year before and was out of a job for five months. We didn't have insurance. So when I was 40, that April, when we, our insurance had kicked in, I was like, oh, well, I guess I should start doing those self exams. And the moment I touched my boob, I was like, oh shit, is this normal?

[00:33:58] [SPEAKER_02] I feel the other side. It feels not the same. So I was about to start my period and I'm like, well, maybe it's, you know, you hear something like caffeine or your period or whatever. It's going to be fine next month. And in my mind, I'm thinking, well, we just got insurance. I should go. So I go and they do the mammogram and they can't see anything. And I'm like, well, dude, but can you feel this? I mean, this really isn't normal. If I wouldn't have asked that, they'd have just let me go and say, come back in a year. Long story short, I ended up having cancer.

[00:34:25] [SPEAKER_02] And so I had chemo, pre-reconstruction surgeries. During this time, I, with breast cancer, chemotherapy, there's a hundred percent chance you're going to lose your hair. And I had really long hair and I had my longtime hairdresser come over and I was like, let's do something really fun. I don't want this to be depressing. When I'm older, I want to have short hair. So let's just cut it in all these different haircuts so I can see what it's going to look like. You know,

[00:34:51] [SPEAKER_02] my ex-husband told me he, he couldn't be there. I mean, we're super, super close. We can talk about anything. This is like a major thing happening to me. And so I kind of like, it's a tick box. I'm just going to like keep this in the back of my mind that he did this, but maybe he just couldn't be here. I don't know. That was the start of this. What is not, what's happening here? These things are just not adding up, but I'm trying to fight cancer. So I just kind of put it in the back of

[00:35:17] [SPEAKER_02] my mind. Can't be dealing with this nonsense, whatever's going on with him, because I'm trying to make sure I live for my kids. Right. The whole time I was going through the cancer and chemo and the surgeries and all that, just more and more and more red flags. Things are not right at home. And I don't know what, but I had to compartmentalize it until I was through all of that. So after my last treatment, I thought to myself, everybody loves my husband. If I tell a soul what I think about this,

[00:35:46] [SPEAKER_02] I'm going to be the bitch. I'm going to be the, oh, Kelly, he would never do that. You know, there was a time when I even brought it up to him, you know, kind of questioning him where he was like, you know, you probably feel this way because you've lost your hair and your boobs and you're just not as secure anymore. There's a word for that. Narcissist? And I think gaslighting. Gaslighting. Yes. So I thought to myself, maybe he is right. I mean,

[00:36:12] [SPEAKER_02] it could be true, right? A long time ago, years and years ago, I went to some women's retreat, that church thing. And I met this lady and at the table, we're all saying what we do. And so she says, well, I own a private investigating firm in Austin. She gave me her card and I thought, I'm going to keep this in my back pocket in case I ever need it. So I text her. I say, this is what all is happening. This is what's happened. No one in their right mind will believe

[00:36:39] [SPEAKER_02] me, but I have no money. But I had saved $500 just in case I needed it for this purpose. And so I thought, well, I don't know how much this shit costs.

[00:36:50] [SPEAKER_00] I would think it would be more than $500. I think she probably did you a big favor.

[00:36:54] [SPEAKER_02] Well, that was what I thought. There's no way I can afford this. So I'm texting her and she's like, Kelly, I'm going to tell you right now he's cheating. I don't even need to do anything else other than tell you he's cheating, but you need the proof is what it sounds like. I said, yes. She says, well, I'll tell you what, we have interns and they come in, they have to get their hours to be a private investigator. And I said, well, I can't drive to Austin. Can you do this remotely? Let me ask him. Let me check with him. Let me see what he would do it for. Oh, guess what?

[00:37:23] [SPEAKER_02] He would do it for $500. There you go. That's what I said. Okay. This so happens I'd say $500. This is a miracle. Yes, let's do it. This leads up to my first attempt. Comes back that he has not only been cheating, but most likely cheating for 20 years. So I have it all in black and white now. And what I worked for, I was the executive pastor's assistant. Go to work, telling him and a couple of the other pastors, I don't know what I'm going to, I don't know how to live through. I don't know how I'm going to get

[00:37:52] [SPEAKER_02] through this. AKA, I'm going to kill myself. I didn't say that to them, but I was like, I just kept, that was the only way I said it was, I don't know how I'm going to do this. I do not know how I'm going to do this. I literally have no hair. I have peach fuzz on my head. I can't even reconcile this in my brain. I do not know how to go, what to do. And so he goes up and he talks to one of the pastors, really cool guy, younger, my ex-husband's age. The pastor texts

[00:38:19] [SPEAKER_02] me and says, I'm going to let him tell you how it went. And I'm thinking, well, that must mean it went good. And he comes home and he does not say a single word, not one word. When I spoke to him, he would not respond. And so I'm like, you know what? Fuck this guy. Are you kidding me right now? There's no way I'm going to do this. Now. Yeah. So he knows, you know. Yes. And actually my, my brain is kind of going a little bit foggy on the timing. I think that this

[00:38:47] [SPEAKER_02] time I had hired the private investigator, but only me and my boss knew about it, but I knew something was wrong. Yes. I knew something was wrong. So he agreed to go talk to the pastor, but he tells me nothing, which makes me even think more, oh, something is so, so, so wrong. It's more wrong than probably I even know. Yeah. I'm about to find out something really bad. So I decided, fuck him,

[00:39:12] [SPEAKER_02] fuck everything. This is the night. My oldest daughter was asleep. My ex was in bed. My youngest was playing games on the computer. I left my purse there. I grabbed my little makeup bag that had every pillow I had with me and where we worked was out of a big house. We just had offices in the house. We called it the property. So I went up to the property and I backed my forerunner into the garage, turned on, left my car running. And I start Googling about if this doesn't work. And it scared

[00:39:40] [SPEAKER_02] the shit out of me because I was like, oh my God, I could literally like be a vegetable if this doesn't work. So I turn off the car, leave my car in the garage, go inside. And I'm just, just so distraught. I'm, I'm trying to figure out what, what am I going to do? Can I take all these pills? Do I have enough pills that will keep me from filling it up? How am I going to make this work for sure? I just thought, you know, what saved me many, many times before is, is sleep. I hadn't been sleeping

[00:40:07] [SPEAKER_02] and I've been awake for days. And I'm like, if I could just sleep tonight, I mean, I'm taking two and three and you can't sleep. And I'm like, if I could just, just sleep, somehow sleep, maybe I can get through all of this tomorrow. I take some Ambien, like five Ambien. Like, okay, I'm going to be able to sleep tonight. At some point in the middle of the night, I take every pill in my, every pill, the whole thing of Ambien, Xanax, Klonopin, whatever, anything that was in

[00:40:36] [SPEAKER_02] my bag, I took it. Now I don't know this. So I wake up in an attic, in a box, like a coffin, which is really strange. Days later, I get my phone. There's like 150 missed texts. I'm like, what the hell's going on? So I text my friend back who was also a cancer survivor. I'm like, what, what is happening? And she calls me and she's like, Kelly, where are you? I'm at the property.

[00:41:02] [SPEAKER_02] Do you know what day it is? And I'm like, no. And she tells me, you've been missing for three days, that there's like Amber Alert type things out for you. So I mean, there were women at church that were like, it's her husband, which is so crazy because I thought, I thought everybody thinks this guy is such a great guy. But apparently after, after the fact, people were like, oh no, people saw him and I did not, you know? Okay. If you're not familiar with Dallas, you may not know what Parkland is,

[00:41:32] [SPEAKER_02] but Parkland is a state hospital. Nobody wants to go to Parkland, even if you're just sick and you have to go there because you have no money, you don't want to go there. You sure don't want to go there if you're about to be locked up on a three-day mandatory hold. I have no idea what's happened yet. I'm still trying to make sense of it myself. My friend's sitting next to me. She has my makeup bag. The cop's there. He's be raiding me. Do you know how much money you've cost the city and

[00:41:58] [SPEAKER_02] you're missing? And now everybody's been looking for you and I'm out of it. I'm fucked up. I don't know what's going on. So my friend starts taking out pill bottles and they're all empty. And I'm just looking at her like, oh my God, you would have to do that right here. Oh my God. And I'm

[00:42:16] [SPEAKER_01] realizing, oh shit, I took every single one of those pills. It sounds like you don't remember

[00:42:21] [SPEAKER_02] taking them. No, I have no recollection of doing this. But obviously my mind, I wanted to die.

[00:42:28] [SPEAKER_01] So the cop's being a dick. Your friend made a poor choice.

[00:42:31] [SPEAKER_02] Well, I go to Parkland and I'm terrified because, well, I'm all fucked up. I'm not right. My blood pressure was all messed up. Everything was, I just wasn't okay. And so it was too late to pump my stomach. So it's like anybody's guess, am I going to be okay or am I not going to be okay? I'm in the hospital with literally people next to me with gunshot wounds, blood spurting everywhere. It's a chaotic

[00:42:56] [SPEAKER_01] hell, you know? The exact place somebody needs when they've just survived an attempt.

[00:43:01] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. Basically what I was seeing around me matched what was happening in my mind internally. So I happened to walk by and see the window through where I'm going to be. It's a psych ward. And there is a lady and she is, her hair is all crazy, pulling her hair. I mean, beating her head against things. She's going insane. And I'm like, oh my God, I am terrified. So I'm thinking that I am not saying,

[00:43:29] [SPEAKER_02] no, this is not happening to me. This is not where I belong. So there's a psychologist and she was a woman. She had an intern that was getting her hours or my ex. So I'm in there and I'm in a room, I'm begging them. I am begging them. Please do not put me in the room with these people. Please, is there anywhere else that you can hold me? You have a room, but it's not going to be long until somebody's in that room. And I can let you have it until that person has to go in the room.

[00:43:57] [SPEAKER_02] Like, please, anytime you can give me. So I did exactly what I just told you. What's been going on? I said, look, I don't have the report yet. I paid for a private investigator report. This is what happened. I did go to try to take my life. It scared the shit out of me. I did not do it, obviously, internally, subconsciously. Wanted to. This is what happened. But I am not mentally ill, basically. So she goes away. She comes back with her boss,

[00:44:24] [SPEAKER_02] the psychiatrist. And she looks at me in the eyes and she says, ma'am, I do believe you. And I do need to go talk to your husband first. And I said, well, I want to just tell you one more thing before you leave. I want to predict exactly what he's going to do and tell you. So I tell her everything I think that he's going to say. And she comes back and she goes, you're 100% correct. That's exactly what he said. So I'm going to let you go. You got lucky. And I got, oh my gosh, I got so lucky.

[00:44:51] [SPEAKER_01] So when she lets you go, she literally is, I mean, it's a law. The three-day hold is a law. So she's breaking the law on your behalf for you.

[00:44:59] [SPEAKER_02] Yes. And the chances of me getting out and doing this again were very likely.

[00:45:03] [SPEAKER_01] Do you think you would have been better served had there been a place that was comfortable and nice and not at all like that, but not let you go? Would you have left or just gone to the comfortable place because you really needed some help?

[00:45:17] [SPEAKER_02] I really believe 100% is that what I did need was sleep. I could not think accurately. I couldn't think right.

[00:45:24] [SPEAKER_01] The place that you described with the woman, that's the last place you would have gotten sleep probably.

[00:45:29] [SPEAKER_03] I would have gone nuts.

[00:45:30] [SPEAKER_01] You might've gone absolutely nuts. All right. So how do we get from 2010 after you get out of that hospital to your second attempt in 2013, which actually sounded more serious?

[00:45:41] [SPEAKER_02] Right after my boss, the pastor told me, I can't come to work. I can't work because I'm crazy. So my story was, I did not try to kill myself, which I mean, I did, but I was unaware that I did in my mind. Look, I got myself together. I realized I just need sleep. I need to get through tonight. I'll be fine. So you're making me, you're the judge and jury now and you're, you're going to fire me or let me go. Are you crazy? I mean, what is wrong with you? That was that I didn't want to go

[00:46:11] [SPEAKER_02] to work for him. I didn't. Now I'm really in my mind thinking, okay, fuck religion too. I get the private investigative report back. I realized what's happened. It's all a shit show. I don't have a job. I'm scared. Maybe I was a coward. I was terrified of now what and how will I support my kids if I leave? I don't have options. Now I'm extremely suicidal because that was the only option I could see. And my husband gets offered a job in Georgia. I did have choices. I could have stayed

[00:46:38] [SPEAKER_02] there and figured it out, but I didn't. And so I went with him and somehow in my mind thought, maybe this is some kind of first start. Maybe we'll go to therapy. Somehow we'll get through this. But I also knew you better get a job and start saving some money. Okay. So I'm trying to help myself, which was what I really in my mind knew was going to happen was I was going to get forced. I was just doing what all I needed to do at the time. And that was to go to counseling. So we went to counseling every single week. Something in my mind just said, he's going to be worse here. He's in

[00:47:07] [SPEAKER_02] a brand new place now. He can hide so much stuff. So I had decided in my mind, if I find out one thing, one last shoe drops, that's it. And I already know exactly what I'm going to do. This was January for New Year's, Christmas, New Year's, 2013. I went to my sister's because my kids really wanted to go see their cousins. I was laying on my couch, you know, because she's really religious and she swats down beside me and my phone's laying there and his name pops up on my phone. Well, I don't answer it. She's like, Kelly, why aren't you going to answer a phone call from your husband?

[00:47:37] [SPEAKER_02] I don't remember what I said, but in my mind, I was like, because this motherfucker is calling me out of sheer obligation to do his duty as a husband. That's the right thing to do, right? He knows I'm depressed. I'm fucked up. He's just been busted. She just looked at me and I just thought, I'm going to go home. Something's going to happen. I'm going to find out he's been doing more shit and I'm never going to see you again. That's what I thought about my sister. So I go home and on January 5th, I find out my oldest daughter's friend tells her that my husband had been begging

[00:48:06] [SPEAKER_02] her mother, who was married, to come over while we were gone. And then I had set up all of our Gmail email addresses and I get an email saying that his email address, password had changed. And so I thought, here we go. I mean, this is exactly what he does. This is the pattern. I asked him why he changed it. He said, because Google asked him to. I said, well, that's bullshit because I set up those passwords and it gave me a notification that you changed it. But me and the

[00:48:35] [SPEAKER_02] girls didn't get a password request. The girls overhear this conversation. They ask him, why would you do that? Why did you change your password? And he tells them some other bullshit story, at which time I realized he's completely lying. One of my favorite stores is Whole Foods. They're like, hey, do you want to go to Whole Foods with us? We're going to go by the mall. In my mind, uh-uh. This is the day. They leave and go to the mall. I'm literally looking out the window, waiting for their car to turn in the corner. And as soon as it did, I jumped in my car,

[00:49:00] [SPEAKER_02] ran to the liquor store, got some tequila and Everclear, came home and downed them with all the pills that I had, did the Whitney Houston thing, got in the tub, got as low down as I could. So I would pass out and drown. Of all people who has zero intuition whatsoever, he got some kind of feeling. And he told my daughter, I don't have a good feeling about your mom. And she said, me either. And so my youngest daughter said, well, I'm staying here at the mall. Can y'all come back and get

[00:49:27] [SPEAKER_02] me? And so they came back. I had the shower running because I wanted it to appear as though I was taking a shower. And he came home, obviously felt like something was not right, banged on the door. I had music playing and he had to take the door down while my other daughter called 911. I was gone. They literally had a hand pump breathing for me all the way to the hospital. And then I was on life support, woke up, I don't know how many days later, I was on life support for about four days. And I woke up,

[00:49:55] [SPEAKER_02] I had had my stomach pumped and had to have tubes down my throat. I could barely even get a whisper out. But the first words that I could manage to get out was, you have got to fucking be kidding me. If I didn't believe in hell before, I believe in it now. And I'm currently living hell.

[00:50:11] [SPEAKER_01] You have got to be fucking kidding me. Not a bad memoir title. Not the winner, but not bad. And I know you have a book and we will talk about it. It's probably a memoir and it's got a title, so you don't need my services. Can I please just please hope that you get a divorce soon after this? Yes. Okay, cool. I mean, I'm sorry to say that. I just, I'm just, I really want you to not be with this guy anymore.

[00:50:34] [SPEAKER_02] Well, in Georgia, it's a 30 day hold. So I had to be in a mental hospital, psych ward for 30 days. No shit. 30 days. And it was terrible because you are, I had to get out of the actual hospital. And then when I got out of the actual hospital, they have a psych ward. You're there for, till they think that you're better and not crazy. And my experience in the mental hospital was, I would see people, young people that would like this one person, guy in particular,

[00:51:04] [SPEAKER_02] looked totally fine. I mean, he seemed totally fine. So it was time to line up and get your meds. Then he'd get his meds and this person's a crazy person. And I'm like, he does not need this medication. What this place is fucked up. My experience was they put me on this medication. Luckily, I had this guy, this friend in there that we hung out together all the time. And he was like, Kelly, did they change your medication? And I'm like, yeah. Well, what do they have you on? This guy is, has killed people in war.

[00:51:30] [SPEAKER_02] Okay. And he's like, that's what I am on. This is for people who are schizophrenic. And he says, you need to talk to them. So I tell the psychiatrist, I'm like, something's not right with me. I can't remember what I'm saying. My friends are saying that you constantly say, what was I saying? What was I saying? I don't even know what I'm, I don't know what's happening to me, but it's that medication that you put me on. And he said, you're the one that was just diagnosed with schizophrenia, right? I'm like, oh my God, what the fuck? No. So he looks at my chart and goes, I am so sorry. I had you confused

[00:52:00] [SPEAKER_02] with this other patient. They put me on the wrong medication, confused me with someone else. And I'm like, this is my support system right now. I am not even safe here in this mental hospital and I cannot get out of here. Wow. Yeah. So at that point I was like, I'm going to do everything. I'm going to be a good little patient. I'm going to do everything they said to do. I'm going to get myself out of this place. And so I did. I went to a halfway house basically after that. And people are just fucking

[00:52:26] [SPEAKER_02] everybody. It is, it is just insane. It's like, this is where people are supposed to get better. I want to die and you're supposed to help me. And this is the environment. People are doing drugs. So I have an exit interview and my husband comes up there. I'm surrounded by at least 10 psychiatrists. He says to them, to the whole group, I'm going to take her and I'm going to drop her off at home. And I'm, this is, this is the end of our relationship. And they were like, you're going

[00:52:52] [SPEAKER_02] to do what? Oh, we cannot release her to you. What? You cannot do that. Do you start giving the statistics? How likely it is that I will end up killing myself for sure. You cannot do that to her. And so he said, okay, he would not. He proceeded to take me, opened up the door for me and dropped me off in the driveway. And that was that.

[00:53:13] [SPEAKER_01] You ever see him again?

[00:53:14] [SPEAKER_02] As little as possible, but he left and didn't even contact my kids. My kids had no idea what was coming. They abandoned me, abandoned my teenage daughters. It was, it was hell.

[00:53:25] [SPEAKER_01] So when did hell start to not be hell?

[00:53:28] [SPEAKER_02] A long, a long time. Yeah. I looked at my daughter's eyes and just saw immense pain. You know, I'm going to have to, I'm going to have to live like this. This is the life I'm going to have to live now that I haven't successfully done this. I could not do this again to them. I was extremely suicidal. I mean, I was far worse than I had ever been in my entire life. Far worse after than before. You know, the after is what people don't talk about.

[00:53:53] [SPEAKER_01] That you were mandated to, for 30 days. When you get out, what kind of help or resources or support is available for you?

[00:54:00] [SPEAKER_02] Zero. Well, I'll take that back. I did see the psychiatrist and I will say that the psychiatrist saved my life. And that was because he put me on Wellbutrin. There you go. Tell me two things. He said, when did you start your plan? And I was like, what are you talking about? Literally had no idea that I had a plan. I didn't even realize the Whitney Houston thing. I didn't even really even think about it. You know, like, I don't know. I can't explain it. But he said that. And I said, I didn't have a plan. He said, you had to have

[00:54:28] [SPEAKER_02] had a plan. I was like, I didn't have a plan. He said, Billy, I'm telling you, I've been doing this for a long time. And you and then I was like, oh, my God, the Whitney Houston thing. So I told him about that. He said that that was the day that you started started formulating your plan. You went from being a suicidal person to with ideation. This is I'm going to do this. And so I was like, oh, my gosh, I can't I can't believe this. It was subconscious in my mind. Then he put me on Wilbutrin. He said, this may or may

[00:54:58] [SPEAKER_02] not work, but potentially you will not have suicidal thoughts. And I didn't. But I was a shell of a person.

[00:55:04] [SPEAKER_01] The cost of living is being a shell. Minimal or less fading suicidal thoughts. But like you're not Kelly. I was not. I mean, I don't even know what Kelly means because Kelly was also very suicidal, but you were a shell. Wow. OK.

[00:55:20] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. My youngest daughter was on the I was sitting on the end of my bed and she's on her knees as her hands on my knees bawling her eyes out. I don't remember why, but I remember thinking I give no fucks. I have no fucks to give you. Oh, wow. And in my mind, I thought, oh, my God, this is so fucked up. But if I don't if I'm not like this, I won't live. I won't be able to stay here. And I have to stay on this medicine.

[00:55:44] [SPEAKER_01] How old was your youngest at that time?

[00:55:46] [SPEAKER_02] 16.

[00:55:47] [SPEAKER_01] OK, so they're getting towards the age of independence.

[00:55:50] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah.

[00:55:50] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. But was there a part of you that thought, I just need to get them out of not out of the houses and kicking them out, but like to the point where they can support themselves and then I'm done?

[00:55:59] [SPEAKER_02] No, I think that just seeing the amount of pain that I had put them through and their dad had just abandoned them because of my actions. They don't have their dad. I feel so guilty and so to blame. You know, they had a great they had a great dad growing up. And I'm like, oh, my God, I've stolen this from them. You know, I did deal with guilt for a very long time. I mean, a very long time that I've done this. I've traumatized them. And I was so fucked up that I was so fucked

[00:56:25] [SPEAKER_02] up. I was so fucked up mentally that I couldn't even help them. I was the last person that could help them go through what they had gone through. You know, they should have been in therapy themselves. It was just a fucked up situation. So my oldest daughter, she graduates. She goes to some Georgia college orientation. And the whole time I'm like, I just want to get back to Texas. I just want to get back to Texas. I'm going to leave this damn state. There's nothing but bad memories here. If I could just get back to Texas, I think I'll

[00:56:51] [SPEAKER_02] be OK. And so I didn't want to tell my daughter that because she wanted to go to college in Georgia. So we go to this orientation right there. And this guy stands up and he says, you know, one quote that sticks with me is you miss 100% of the shots that you never take. And my daughter goes, I don't want to go here. I'm done. Let's go. I don't belong here in Georgia. Can we move back to Texas? Oh, no way. So we go back to Texas and I had started my own social media company and I started doing

[00:57:20] [SPEAKER_02] the social media for the life coaching school. They were like, yeah, we'll hire you. We need somebody to do this. And so that just grew into me being a trainer and all of that. I go back to Georgia to visit my friend while I'm there. She's like, let's go to the gun range. I'm like, oh, that's great. So I had never done this before. And I pick out this little thing that's going to be my target and pick out an outline of this person. And it's real pretty

[00:57:45] [SPEAKER_02] blue, which is my ex-husband's ex-favorite color. I put his name on the chest of the thing. We did this shooting all day. It was so awesome. And I post about it on Facebook. And so I think it's hilarious. Not everybody would agree with that. Yeah. So my boss was like, calls me and I'm like, I'm not talking to her on my vacation. And so she texts me. She's like, Kelly, we do not condone violence in any way. We're a life coaching school. You need to take that down right now.

[00:58:11] [SPEAKER_02] And I was like, are you, this is a joke. And she said what you said. People are not going to find this funny. I'm telling you, I know you're on vacation, but when you come back, I'm going to pay for you to be off work as long as you need to, because you need to work through this anger that

[00:58:25] [SPEAKER_01] you have. And I was like, you're doing some serious life coaching right there.

[00:58:28] [SPEAKER_02] She was. And of course my response was, I'm fucking angry. So I get back and she said, today's the day you're going to start working on this shit. And you call me if you need to get to a place of anger so you can work through this. And so I had this picture when I was bald, I had pink boxing gloves and he was next to me in this beautiful picture. My most favorite picture of us. It was just so awesome. I loved it. I had found out that during that picture was one of the

[00:58:56] [SPEAKER_02] times he was cheating, you know, and I just couldn't believe that this picture was so fake. And I had that, I held onto that picture. And so I call her up and I was like, you know what? I feel no anger. I feel no anger because I have nothing but hate. I feel complete hatred towards this man. She was like, okay, there we go. You know, I was just, you know, telling her about it until I started to get really angry. And she's like, you know, you ought to get that picture out.

[00:59:23] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, I'll do that. So I get the picture out and I look at it and I'm just like, just can't believe this. I mean, I just can't believe, how can this picture tell a thousand different lies? You know, I just, how could this be true? And how could this be this story? How could this be my story, you know? And so I grabbed a flip-flop that was on the ground and I just beat the picture to shreds. When I was done, I saw it there and I was like, this is what is left of

[00:59:47] [SPEAKER_02] my marriage. This is literally a representation of what's left. And so I strip down naked. I look in the mirror, you know, my boobs are all not normal. And I'm just like bawling my eyes out. And I'm thinking to myself, you know, how do I not, how do I not kill myself? I keep going. Can't live like this every day, but I can't destroy my children. So it's just so fucking hard.

[01:00:12] [SPEAKER_03] How am I going to do this? At that moment, I mean, Sean, I just looked at myself in the mirror and I saw you. I saw every other person like us out there. It just gripped me. And I just thought,

[01:00:25] [SPEAKER_02] I have to save myself. I have to find a way to save myself. I don't have a God to pray to. I don't have a mom. I don't have a dad. I don't have anybody that understands me.

[01:00:37] [SPEAKER_01] Nobody's coming to save you.

[01:00:38] [SPEAKER_02] No, no one. No one is coming to save me. How am I going to save myself in this moment and turn around and somehow show other people like us that they can do this? So I was like, okay, get a grip, you know, and if you were coaching yourself right now, if you were your safe person, what would you do right now? What would you say? And I said, get the fuck up off the floor. Get the fuck up off the floor.

[01:01:06] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, you're a safe person.

[01:01:10] [SPEAKER_02] So I stand up and look at myself like, okay, well, you know, now what? And I was like, just get in the shower. I mean, just get in the shower. Just take a shower. So I get in the shower and I put some shampoo in my hand and I dumped way too much in my hand. So when I start scrubbing my head, insane amount of soap, right? I'm like, well, this is ridiculous. So I'm scrubbing my head and I just thought, man, wouldn't it be awesome if you could just scrub all these suicidal thoughts right out

[01:01:35] [SPEAKER_02] of your head and just watch it go down the drain and just circle around and just sleep. And so I watched the bubbles go down my body, go down the drain and circle down the drain. And I thought, well, why couldn't I? I can just try that right now. Scrubbing my head, scrubbing my head. Oh God, I just want to die so bad. I just want to, I don't want to be here. And I just watched it go down the drains. It wasn't a lot, but it was a little bit that I felt better. Something within me

[01:02:05] [SPEAKER_02] went, okay, I've managed to live the last five minutes. Could I live five more minutes? Could I then live another five minutes? What could I go through till bedtime? So I get out of the shower and I thought, okay, somehow this has worked. Something shifted in my brain. I don't know what. I'm not healed. I'm not, not suicidal, but something's happened to me. So I made it through the night. I get up the next morning and I thought, well, what could I do today? Cause I still want to die.

[01:02:33] [SPEAKER_02] I don't want to live this. I am fucked up and I don't want to spend the rest of my life being fucked up. And I thought, well, maybe I could open the blinds. And this is literally what happened. I mean, every day I did something different. It was open the blinds. It was run down the street to get a Diet Coke. It was take a walk outside, open the door, close the door.

[01:02:52] [SPEAKER_01] You're like actively looking for small steps to not die. So for the sake of time, tell me how we got from then to now.

[01:02:59] [SPEAKER_02] I drank a lot and that was what saved me. You know, I mean for a very long time was, and here's where I know that this is going to step on a lot of people's toes and therapists and stuff won't like it. But the fact is, is that just like Wellbutrin saved me, alcohol saved me for a long time. Um, I lost my insurance when I got divorced. So I had to go through the whole coming off Wellbutrin, which was extremely hard. I was very, very suicidal. I spent,

[01:03:27] [SPEAKER_02] I spent a very long time, very, very suicidal and not, you know, the struggle was real. And so I drank a whole lot and, and, and during COVID I decided, decided to start running. So I start running and something changed in me. I could only run for a year because my hips got really bad and I couldn't run anymore. But something shifted in me because it was, it was me versus me every day. From that experience, this is my story. This is what I believe is that that experience of being

[01:03:56] [SPEAKER_02] me versus me made me realize how much I had power. I had the ability and a capability of saving myself. Well, I wasn't about to go to a therapist. I had terrible therapist experiences. Uh, I was never going to go to a mental hospital. I would never check myself into a crazy place after the experience that I had. I was never going to contact anybody. So I realized my last option was me. I was the only

[01:04:21] [SPEAKER_02] person that could possibly know what everything I had been through my life. I was the only person that knew me better than anybody else. And so if I could figure out how to save myself, I, I, that's what I was going to have to do. And so I knew that I did, I put two and two together that I was waking up with massive panic attacks. And then I realized it was on the nights I drank the most. I tried to cut back on drinking, which I was pretty successful at, but I was still a major,

[01:04:49] [SPEAKER_02] getting majorly wasted. Not long before I moved to Arizona, so probably three years ago, I was really not drinking much at all. And for one night, I just got extremely plastered with my girlfriend. And the next morning I woke up and I was in a very, very, very bad place. And so, but I had enough of these solutions that I had built for myself. I was like, okay, what do I need to do right now in this moment? The self-hatred was terrible. I was just like,

[01:05:16] [SPEAKER_02] you should just go ahead and do this. Fuck what your kids think. You can't live like this. This is not living. So I called a friend of mine who had also left religion and I was like, this is what's going on. She said, did you drink last night? Yes, I did. Okay. Well, you know, it's the alcohol. You know, you know, you know, this is not you. It's not who you are. It's the alcohol. So what can you do right now? And I was like, well, I could journal, listen to a podcast, you know, I could listen to some good music that I love. At the time it was Save Me by Jelly Roll. I could listen to it on repeat.

[01:05:46] [SPEAKER_02] And I started playing that over and over and I got myself through it until I was not having alcohol effects. So I'm on Facebook that night and I never, ever check on ads, click on ads for Facebook. Random ad pops up for this movie called Unsinkable or a documentary or something. I click on it and it's free, but she had to sign up for this date, which I was like, I don't know about this. Somebody's selling me something. I'm not sure about this. So I go ahead and click on it. And that

[01:06:15] [SPEAKER_02] Sunday morning I watched it. The one story I remember about the whole thing was this lady was a young girl by 12, 13. Her dad is bringing her back to see her mom. They were gone through a divorce, drops her off. And the guy kills his mom. I mean, the mom and himself in front of the lady. And I thought if that lady could survive that, there is nothing in this earth that I cannot survive. I can do this.

[01:06:39] [SPEAKER_01] And you have thus far. All right. To the point where you start to do the sort of semi-nomadic lifestyle. You said it's been two years since you really thought about suicide. Mostly a blessing, but it came with a big, wow, my whole life I was suicidal. Right now you have a relationship with your daughters?

[01:06:57] [SPEAKER_02] Yes.

[01:06:58] [SPEAKER_01] And you have one granddaughter?

[01:07:00] [SPEAKER_02] Grandson.

[01:07:00] [SPEAKER_01] How does that feel?

[01:07:01] [SPEAKER_02] Oh, so amazing. I look at him and many things happen to my life on a daily basis now where I'm like, oh my God, I'm so glad I made it. I would have missed out on all of this.

[01:07:11] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. That's one of the things that people say, right? So you don't know what you're going to encounter and what you might miss, which is a fair, understandable point of view. But you having been where you were also understand why people would choose to check out even though they will, yes, they might miss out on stuff. Question that I usually ask way earlier to most guests is, when did you find this podcast?

[01:07:32] [SPEAKER_02] So I knew, oh, that's where I was going with the earlier is about the survivor coach. Which I knew, how am I going to get myself out there? So I got on a ton of podcasts. And it was so easy to get on podcasts. I thought, well, I need to start getting on some podcasts to promote my book house. Am I going to let people know about this? So I'm looking at these podcasts and I find your podcast and I'm like, what? How did I not even know this was out here? One, how can I support you? Because we got to get you out there to more people.

[01:08:01] [SPEAKER_01] I mean, okay. So it made sense. Anytime somebody's got a book or they're a speaker, I'm always like, let me be real clear here. Like, yeah, because a lot of people, it's happened a couple of times where they didn't get it. And I was like, stop. I finished my healing while writing the book. What's the name of the book? The Suicide Solution. Oh, so that's branded perfectly because it's the same as the website. Yes. Now, this is where you could find the note that I read

[01:08:27] [SPEAKER_01] earlier on. And so I want to just read for people. The Suicide Solution. Stay a little longer, go a little further together. This is the book I needed when I believed there was no way out. If you're still here, something in you is still fighting. And there's a couple of things to click and normal stuff. Pretty simple site, but nice. I like simple. And the book is available? Yes. But I wonder why you wanted to talk. Is it not just to help get my podcast out there? I mean,

[01:08:53] [SPEAKER_01] of course, you want to talk about your stuff too. Most suicide attempt survivors don't reach out for understandable reasons. I don't know all the reasons, but you know, it's a hard thing to talk

[01:09:00] [SPEAKER_02] about. My main reason for reaching out is because I feel like my story is different. I feel like a lot of suicidal people don't think or even realize that there is any chance that they will ever be not suicidal. I think who I am here for, who I want to represent are the people where religion, friends, family, a therapist, hospitals, all of the things have completely failed them. And they

[01:09:28] [SPEAKER_02] have no options in their mind. They truly have no other options because everything else they've exhausted.

[01:09:35] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. Okay. A few kind of random-ish questions. How many people know we're talking?

[01:09:40] [SPEAKER_02] My daughter, my oldest daughter who travels with me.

[01:09:43] [SPEAKER_01] Oh, that's interesting. Will you listen to this episode when it comes out?

[01:09:47] [SPEAKER_02] A hundred percent I will, yes.

[01:09:49] [SPEAKER_01] Will you share it with people? Yes, I will. You wrote a book. I mean, come on. Before you wrote the book where it's kind of like you go in public when you do something like that, right? How many people knew about either attempt? Is it single digits?

[01:10:00] [SPEAKER_02] A lot of people knew because I was an executive assistant to an executive pastor. Everybody knew and, you know, the pastor himself thought I had tried to kill myself that night. And so that was a known fact. So whenever I did try to kill myself, my ex-husband was quick to let everybody know to see she did try to take her life because she really did this time. You know, she really did attempt this time. So a lot of people, but now they'll know the truth.

[01:10:26] [SPEAKER_01] That's not the same thing, right? How many people do you have in your life where you can have a really good conversation with? Like the kind that that note is asking for?

[01:10:34] [SPEAKER_02] Well, obviously I can't have that kind of conversation with my children, but they are very close to me. But I do have two people in my life. It's an ex-girlfriend. Two ex-girlfriends have saved my life on many occasions. Why? How did they save your life? I was able to say, I want to jump off a bridge. I want to, I don't know how much, how many more seconds I can keep doing this. And I called them or I was right there with them. They just didn't freak out at all. They were just like, okay, you know,

[01:10:59] [SPEAKER_02] did something happen today? You know, did something lead you up to this? You know, that kind of thing. And then just kind of sit with me and both of them are drinkers. We would just start doing shots and shit, you know what I mean? Just have fun and shoot the breeze and they'd make me laugh and that would get me through the moment.

[01:11:16] [SPEAKER_01] So for people who think that that is, you're exaggerating, are you exaggerating? Or did they save your life?

[01:11:21] [SPEAKER_02] Oh yes. You know, I think that's, that's another thing that's totally my story. And I had somebody on, um, I think it was Twitter when it was Twitter, I told this story about, you know, the bubbles going down the drain. And her response was that that was ridiculous to think that could save anybody's life. My response was, well, it saved mine. Yeah. Well, I mean, it's your experience. Sure. Have you ever called 980? I never, I would never. Why not? Because I, I, my fear would be, they would call the cops.

[01:11:49] [SPEAKER_01] Well, it's just, your fear is very justified. Did you ever, um, receive a diagnosis you agree with?

[01:11:55] [SPEAKER_02] No, I do not believe I had a mental illness at all.

[01:11:57] [SPEAKER_01] The pink and purple pill question is an interesting one to hear. The pill that if you take it, you go to sleep, you don't wake up, there's no pain and no one knows it's a suicide. It's about the easiest out you can have, right? Today, what do you do with that pill?

[01:12:09] [SPEAKER_02] I would consider it.

[01:12:10] [SPEAKER_01] Whoa. This is going to sound so arrogant. I almost never get surprised on this podcast.

[01:12:15] [SPEAKER_02] I don't know how I could not consider it, Sean. Wow. Tell me why. Thank you for making me feel safe enough to say so, to have that answer. You know, since I have wrote the book, I don't know how people are going to look at that, but it is what it is. I'm just going to say, honestly, and being transparent, what comes to my life is, you know, how do you pass on a get out of jail free card? I didn't expect really that question. I, I remember it now that you said to think that you were going to ask it, but I have thought to myself,

[01:12:41] [SPEAKER_02] if somebody said to me, are you truly 100% not suicidal? Do you think you'll never think about killing yourself again? And what I think to myself is when I try to prepare myself for being asked that question is, no, today I am not suicidal. I have not thought about suicide in two years. However, I do not know if I am one traumatic experience away from being right there again, which is why I will never be around people that do drugs because I do not trust myself.

[01:13:10] [SPEAKER_02] And it's been over 30 years.

[01:13:11] [SPEAKER_01] When I hear that, it makes absolute sense. There are people that will say, I'm, you know, it's been 20 years. I haven't thought about it many years. There's no chance I'll do it again. And I'm not, I'm not saying they're right or wrong. It's just not what they, that's what they say. And then there are other people like you who say, I haven't thought about it in a while, but I went through it for a long time. There's a possibility.

[01:13:33] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah.

[01:13:34] [SPEAKER_01] If we talk in one year, do like an update episode, which I, which I've done some of them. They're kind of cool.

[01:13:38] [SPEAKER_02] I haven't listened to some.

[01:13:40] [SPEAKER_01] Oh, you have? First of all, you don't know where you're going to be. No, I have no idea. We have no idea where Kelly's going to be in a year, but it's kind of going to be alive.

[01:13:47] [SPEAKER_02] Oh yes. Yes.

[01:13:49] [SPEAKER_01] So you're making it to 58 other than your physical location. What might be different other than being

[01:13:54] [SPEAKER_02] a little bit older? I wonder to myself, what would I consider success about writing the book? It's been a lot of work. Personally, I've signed a lot of books, you know, that to people I'll never see, but to be able to look someone in the eye and have that person tell me I saved their life, if it's just one person, then if I could tell you that in a year, oh man, that I just can't imagine a greater feeling. I'll feel like my life mattered.

[01:14:21] [SPEAKER_01] Well, I am definitely rooting for you. So yeah, I hope that happens for you sooner than later. Two more questions. I'm done and you can add anything else you want. You ready? Myths and misconceptions. What's one or two of the biggest ones that make you say that's absolute bullshit?

[01:14:36] [SPEAKER_02] That if you are suicidal, that you have a mental illness and you are not well.

[01:14:40] [SPEAKER_01] The suicide solution. What I'm curious about, because I have a podcast, so I make something, right? I have a conversation, I edit it, there's some curation going on. You write a book, it's similar, but it seems way harder and it takes a long time. And it's really hard when it's about your own life. I think it's almost one of the hardest things to do. I hope you had a really good editor. So is it self-published?

[01:15:03] [SPEAKER_03] Yes.

[01:15:03] [SPEAKER_01] How long did it take you to write that book? 11 months. Good for you for not quitting. That's a long time. What percentage of that was original writing versus editing?

[01:15:12] [SPEAKER_02] The writing of the book was the hard part. I mean, it was the easy part. The editing was very hard and I did do it all myself.

[01:15:19] [SPEAKER_01] Wow. Well, the editing really is writing. It's just another, you know, it's part of it, but the craft. So you didn't have any outside eyes?

[01:15:28] [SPEAKER_02] Yes, I did. Yeah, I had outside readers and it was most important to me that I had a mental health therapist read it from a therapist's perspective. And I did that.

[01:15:38] [SPEAKER_01] Why did you, wait, why'd you do that?

[01:15:39] [SPEAKER_02] I just felt like it was a responsible thing to do because the fact is that therapy does help some people. I can't say all therapists are bad. Like I can't say all men are bad because I just don't know that.

[01:15:49] [SPEAKER_01] I just think it's interesting given what you've shared about therapists that you went that angle, but it makes total sense. I assume, why don't you ensure that you were, it was being potentially received in a way that wouldn't be, I don't know what the word is. I'm not going to use the word triggering because that's a weird one.

[01:16:03] [SPEAKER_02] Well, that's exactly what I was going to say is I did not want to say things in a way that would harm anyone. So it's out. How many pages is it? 177 pages.

[01:16:11] [SPEAKER_01] You do not have a subtitle.

[01:16:13] [SPEAKER_02] Yes, I do. It's when living feels worse than dying.

[01:16:17] [SPEAKER_01] So you're an author. You're a big shot.

[01:16:19] [SPEAKER_02] Can you believe it?

[01:16:21] [SPEAKER_01] Kelly in Colorado is an author. Definitely not something you would have thought probably several years ago that you'd be an author, I imagine. Not at all. And the craziest shit given with all you've shared is that you're alive. Yes. There's a lot of Kellys out there, even though their name might not be Kelly.

[01:16:38] [SPEAKER_02] Oh, yes.

[01:16:38] [SPEAKER_01] And they don't get better.

[01:16:40] [SPEAKER_02] Yes.

[01:16:40] [SPEAKER_01] And they live the rest of their lives miserable. And people are going to say, that's so negative. I don't give a shit. It's true. And in a way, I have an insane amount of respect for them. I don't know. I don't judge people for ending their lives at all. But the amount of strength it takes to stay alive. And what's your subtitle again?

[01:17:00] [SPEAKER_02] When living feels worse than dying.

[01:17:02] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. If you're sticking it out when living feels worse than dying, you are a badass. And that includes you. Let us get back to our days. I appreciate you, Kelly. Thanks for talking.

[01:17:13] [SPEAKER_02] Well, I really appreciate all your time. Keep me posted.

[01:17:16] [SPEAKER_01] I will. All right. Bye. As always, thanks so much for listening and all of your support. Special thanks to Kelly in Arizona slash Colorado slash who knows where. Thanks, Kelly. If you are a suicide attempt survivor or ideator and you'd like to talk, I'd love to talk with you. Please reach out. Hello at suicidenoted.com. If you are rich and have a big heart, we would love your help. You can sponsor us or offer a tax-deductible donation.

[01:17:42] [SPEAKER_01] We could use the support. We're working on a lot of cool things, though a lot of those things are on delay or shelled. So if that's your jam, great. If not, just keep listening. And that's all for this week's episode. Stay strong. Do the best you can. I'll talk to you soon.