Jess in Iowa

[00:00:00] I definitely think postpartum played a part in it like it definitely escalated it for sure I wanted to die more than I wanted anything else

[00:00:31] Hey there, my name is Sean and this is Suicide Noted On this podcast I talk with suicide attempt survivors and ideators so that we can hear their stories Every year around the world millions of people try to take their own lives and we almost never talk about it we certainly don't talk about it enough and when we do talk about it, when we engage with people in all kinds of pain we're not very good at it so one of my goals with this podcast is to have more conversations and hopefully better conversations with survivors in large part to help more people in more places

[00:01:00] hopefully feel a little less shitty and a little less alone now if you are an attempt survivor or chronic ideator and you'd like to talk, I'd love to talk with you please reach out hello at suicidenoted.com and if you are curious, you can check out themissingrecord.com now this is not for everybody this is a commercial project something I am doing to make enough money so I can keep doing this podcast and actually grow this podcast I've got a few ideas that have been shelved for quite a while now

[00:01:29] so I would like to move forward so check it out, share it with people give me your thoughts, your comments, your questions perhaps even your pushback on that idea I'd love to hear from you finally, we are talking about suicide here on this podcast my guests and I do not hold back please take that into account before you listen or as you listen but I do hope you listen because there is so much to learn today I am talking with Jess Jess lives in Iowa and she is a suicide attempt survivor

[00:01:57] so my laptop died and I didn't hit record this is six years of podcasting lack of aptitude so full disclosure we're recording I want the audience to know I'm talking to Jess in Iowa yes what I said to Jess what I thought would be kind of cute and clever is just to record how many times or how this compilation of people saying can you hear me now because as they're getting on Zoom there's always an issue with mute and you said what?

[00:02:27] I said it would be just a cute opening video or like marketing for your podcast just like can you hear me now can you hear me now can you hear me now? but do you think our audience members they're pretty smart do you think they get it? oh yeah absolutely I think that the people that are listening to your podcast are people a lot of people you know struggling for so long and those people like you learn from struggles so these people are

[00:02:57] sometimes they're smart and they're wise something that not a lot of people are you know they're learning from learned experience so I absolutely think they would get it and I think it would be very it would capture my attention you know it's gonna be the Spotify poll no one uses no one's really using my Spotify poll every week I have a poll but yours is going to be that exact thing just so you know behind you is something I'd like to read can I read it? yes behind her right shoulder

[00:03:26] it looks like she might be seeing it we don't even know they don't even know such detail there is a framed nice framed photo picture whatever we want to call it it says this darling I love you love you love you love you love you love you love you I love you darling love you love you love you love you love you I love you I'm gonna take a guess I know who that's from it could be either two people most people are probably thinking what I'm thinking which is a partner however however

[00:03:57] it could also be from you actually neither it would be a good answer for a suicide podcast I think I'm all about affirmations so that's it you know what I mean that's not something I wouldn't do so I'm a single mom of two wonderful kids I just went through a divorce back in September on my own again for the first time after six years this is my first place money's a little tight so we couldn't afford a three bedroom so we did a two bedroom

[00:04:26] I was gonna have the kids share a room but you know kids they always change plans you sleep in on the couch? nope I share the bed with my daughter so my oldest not my youngest she would keep me up all night but so my oldest daughter sleeps with me and I'm really big on making sure that my children go to bed feeling loved and I love having visual reminders around them when I was a kid my mom always told me I don't think there's anything you could do that can make me

[00:04:56] stop loving you and it was always very deeply comforting to me as a child what about suicide? that is a very good question so with suicide like there's grief that comes with suicide but it's complicated grief I'm gonna talk about you not what other people think yeah no and I agree with them I guess so yeah would your mom stop loving you if you killed yourself? I think that she would not stop loving me and I think that she would have instead of just grief the complicated grief right the feelings of like

[00:05:26] I bet there would be anger there I hope we don't find out but reality is reality Jess is in her 20s I imagine and you look like you're in your 20s I'm 30 two kids recently divorced which means you met your partner earlier in life early 20s late teens early 20s presumably I'm doing math here you're no longer together that's what divorce means literally yes co-parenting or is he out of the picture? we're co-parenting it is we're still figuring it out my daughters have different dads

[00:05:56] so my 8 year old was with my he was the first person I had a child with and I have a great relationship with him he honestly is a great human he's in the same field that I am that's how we met he was very kind to me good relationship for your older daughter who's 8 she stays in the bed with you and you have a younger daughter from your prior partner who and it's complicated because why wouldn't it be I mean Jesus I don't even know how like 5% of marriages last

[00:06:26] I know I've never been in the situation that I'm in now I'm not able to work right now so it's humbling though when you're used to the privilege of I worked I had a paycheck I was able to provide the necessities it might not have been easy but it was doable it's a completely different thing and it affects suicide way more than I thought as well when when getting your basic needs met is such a challenge

[00:06:55] yeah we don't talk about that nearly enough what we do is talk about mental illness it's like no I can't eat fucking food I might I might be bipolar also if I don't know where I'm gonna sleep tonight oh well there's homeless shelters and there's food banks it's like go live that life for a month come back and talk to me right right I went to the food bank the other day I have a I told you I have a 2 year old my oldest was still in school and there was a 3 hour wait and I have an injury so I have a 2 pound weight restriction on one side

[00:07:25] so I'm like how am I gonna wait 3 hours with the baby and then go through you know what I mean so people are like there's resources out there yes there are and I'm so grateful for those resources and there's work to be done still I got a good sense of Jess in Iowa though I mean what do we think of Iowa just in 10 months or less there's not much going on in Iowa I never ever ever ever dreamed that I would still be living in Iowa are you from Iowa yes I am what part I grew up in

[00:07:55] Sioux City in Iowa which is in between Cedar Rapids and Iowa City out of everybody who's hearing this right now how many people do you think have heard of that city or town not even all the people in Iowa will know it'll be people that are from eastern Iowa what are we talking is it corn or wheat or both corn are we shuck it huck it what do we do with corn shuck it yes that shit shuck that shit that's also a good number of titles but there's a reason why we're talking and it's almost never so there's a couple of categories of people small percentage of publicists

[00:08:24] reaches out to me why I don't know I'm not that big like you know they're trying to do whatever publicists or PR people do for agents do for their authors or writers their clients and they're almost never a good fit because they're not suicide attempt survivors they just don't do they're just a mass email almost everybody else is either told about it or looks on google or spotify or apple and if you put like mental health it might come up if you put suicide it does come up and I don't think the majority of the people

[00:08:53] put the word suicide anywhere I agree with you you did so I found your podcast actually by googling I want podcasts about things that matter I did a couple searches based on a few passions that I have but my biggest is mental health you did not use the word suicide in google and my podcast came up it did oh my god so google's weird it doesn't work the same for everybody so it might know prior searches or who knows

[00:09:22] what you said to alexa but that really makes me feel good because that means it's a little broader than it was so it was an article it was like top 10 mental health podcasts that should be checked out and yours was number 3 who's number fucking 1 and 2 i don't remember i don't remember yeah well i want to know their names because i didn't listen to them i instantly i liked your title first of all very well done and but also like it just spoke to me i was like oh my gosh for sure i mean it was last week and we just reached out

[00:09:52] and scheduled so obviously you wanted to talk but also let me share something with you yeah most smart human beings would be like oh i want to learn from the podcasts who are ahead of me i'm not that guy jess you have purpose just for being you for being a human right and you're like a life coach no you're doing very meaningful work um i hope that you give yourself a lot of kindness for that kindness no jess you don't know me very well i give myself i mean credit yes kindness

[00:10:21] is not a word that overlaps much with my life but i mean kindness in a way of like if this is an offer of kindness then sure so you google that when that was about a week ago okay how many episodes have you listened to in that week or so um over 10 i started with one-on-ones mostly just because i wanted to talk to you so like i wanted to kind of get a feel and that's 90 plus percent of them it's just more more recently i was doing a second episode per week with some other stuff i had done i saw that yeah

[00:10:51] yeah yeah yeah um that live tour was supposed to change everything and i was gonna get rich but it didn't happen so that's live too are you rich because i could use a good sponsor uh i just told you i was at the food pantry the other day sean damn now let's talk about listening or lack thereof let's talk about listening well no because you might have you might have like some something that you don't have access to but you're not liquid but you can still be rich maybe tied up in some big property down in like some island somewhere and you just wait maybe i got some crypto

[00:11:21] money or something no no nothing so you google that you find it you binge a little bit it's good enough for you to email me obviously we're here now talking it's uh tuesday afternoon tuesday late morning early afternoon suicidal yes active passive somewhere in between don't know i would say that um it's rapidly shifting which direction um at this current moment it's very passive when it's not passive um even i am doing

[00:11:50] a lot better than i was even a couple months ago and even like when it's when i'm having a bad night still you know it's hard to find a word for it it's gut-wrenching what an unnatural thing to feel does it feel unnatural so you're saying it feels unnatural to want to kill yourself I what i'm saying is that like to me when i think about the brain that's a part of me first of all i find it very interesting that a part of me could be encouraging me to hurt me

[00:12:20] my therapist i have an outstanding therapist and psychiatrist which is life-changing um my therapist he always he has taught me so much but one of my things that he says is you can't control your thoughts and you can't control your emotions you can only control your behavior in your behavior you are determining the type of person that you are sounds good on paper i'm sure he's a great therapist so little or no control over brain and emotions

[00:12:49] but it's how we respond actions behaviors now how does that connect to gut-wrenching it allowed me to try to like help some some grace yeah like the most challenging things for me to do is sit with something i worked as a paramedic for 10 years right sit with anything move move move next next next next next you know what i mean i had to be and i liked that

[00:13:18] you know what i mean that was my type of energy it was fun it was exciting it was passionate it was meaningful this is so not that way i have a bit of like a unique take i've responded to attempted suicides i've responded to people thinking about suicides i've responded to people that have actually committed suicide all the ways so when i am suicidal not only am i feeling that emotional agony desperation

[00:13:47] for for peace for quiet for escape but i have these images that accompany it i'm sure you've heard of this so like i'm not trying to talk down on you but do you know like about the interpersonal theory of suicide at all my therapist actually taught me this as well uh it's um a theory and it was by dr uh dr joyner who did who says this and it's actually accepted by most of the medical providers that provide mental health it's the most

[00:14:17] let's put let's put a pin in that and come back to it but go on yes it basically says that there's three components to like a truly suicidal person like they have three things and unfortunately i'm not a therapist either so i don't know the specific this is thomas joiner who wrote a very famous book yes so for if i remember correctly i i had one was shame one was isolation and disconnect and then the third

[00:14:47] was um when you reach a point in your brain where your mental health is literally trumping the biological evolutionary pieces of your brain that keep yeah yeah so that so that explains earlier why you said your brain it's keep it's meant to keep you alive or at least in large part so how could it be doing or wanting you to do the opposite and you're saying this is one theory widely accepted that might explain some

[00:15:17] or all of that right they put it in a like three circle then diagram and they say if they have those first two that shame and that that isolation when that overlaps that part of the circle are people that are at high risk for suicide attempt with um injury or you know unsuccessful attempts still very serious still very important it's that third piece of getting to the point where you literally are able to override like the your brain trying to

[00:15:47] keep you alive my relationships with family friends romance are important one of the reasons why I think about ending my life absolutely really I think that it's also important when you have those thoughts to challenge them and like you're your own worst critic so like what'd you say to yourself repeat what you just said wait wait I'm not getting coached by Jess and I I just want to hear what you said what'd you say I don't remember I just said I think that when you feel as if you have failed in those two areas why would you want to stay

[00:16:17] alive it's a rhetorical question but you can answer it if you want no I just had a thought about it which is like this year I've been challenging myself on like does there have to be a reason good question I that's a big one though having a couple kids that is why I'm here so if you have no kids you'd be dead yes so

[00:16:46] when I selfishly compare myself to others that's what starting to go through depression and I was in a vulnerable spot I started I didn't have a lot of friends in high

[00:17:39] poetry I was running late for my first day of psychology class at that community college because I was coming from high school there was only one seat left and I sat down next to this boy I had met him before a couple of years ago and I had a crush on him at the time but we lost touch and so in my head I remember literally thinking is this fate I feel silly even saying that I was 17 though and I started talking to him spending more and more time with him and

[00:18:09] you know things at home with my parents I was depressed I was irritable I wasn't getting along with them I felt misunderstood and so I really leaned into this guy I didn't know at the time that he did drugs I was very naive I had never been offered alcohol I had never seen marijuana like I had never ever he eventually told me that he smoked marijuana I was like okay you know what I mean I can live with that it took a while longer before I realized that he was using other

[00:18:39] drugs as well and about six months into that relationship his personality started shifting a lot I could really tell what drug he was on and when he took it just based on how he was acting and the relationship turned abusive I didn't have the life experience at the time you know what I mean this is my first relationship so to me I like it's not I'm not realizing this isn't normal like I would see it coming I would see that we're gonna have this

[00:19:08] altercation and I would be scared I remember one time he was just raging and I thought I think I would rather go and slit my throat than spend the next three hours getting shoved around and screamed at by this man and I remember that thought scared me deeply how long did that relationship last I was with him for two years so you dealt with that for many months after

[00:19:38] having that we don't talk a lot about children and domestic violence situations you know what I mean what a complex issue for adults you know adults have trouble leaving so that was the first time that was just a fleeting thought though but no that was the first time but it's not like you were thinking about that every day right exactly and it was like it was a it was a fleeting thought yeah the first time that I actually considered it

[00:20:07] so my parents when I was with this guy they hated him they saw the way that he treated me they saw saw the bruises they didn't believe the lies about where they came from their parents right they're learning too they don't know how to handle it but they didn't handle it the right way in my opinion you know what I mean like I felt more isolated from them than anything they were

[00:20:45] nothing that you can do that will ever make me not love you and I felt like I found something being with him it's making my mom think differently of me they were very worried and they had gotten me a TV for my birthday my parents had we were fighting and AJ said if you don't stop like fighting with me right now I'm going to throw this TV through the window

[00:21:15] my parents still don't know about this actually are your parents going to hear this conversation yes they will they know about it now yes are they going to learn some other things you to

[00:21:45] myself in my apartment and I was like, if my parents see this, like my dad is very protective of me. I was a daddy's girl. Like he's a firefighter. He's a man's man. You know what I mean? Like very protective. I was scared he was going to kill him. Yeah, I would kill him. Okay. I was scared my dad was going to go to prison. So I locked myself in my apartment. I just want to understand something. He left because he thought he killed you. Yeah. You were unconscious,

[00:22:14] obviously. So he didn't call 911? No, no, he was on probation at the time and it was after curfew. So he would have gotten arrested. I got a link from a detective friend of mine who knows him not that long ago. Body cam footage of him on the news in Colorado as a prolific shoplifter. But it was interesting for me to see, like, because like part of me is like, you know what I mean? That's funny to watch the body cam footage and laugh at him. But also like on another level,

[00:22:42] I had this realization of like, oh my God, if my life went differently, I could have been there with him getting arrested. Which is better. Being suicidal. Being suicidal. Okay. But these relationships, right? And in the beginning, it's good. It's always good in the beginning. Right. It always isn't. And it wasn't until like, I mean, he, we were moving a dresser and the little baggy fell down on the floor. I'm so, so naive. He was, he was a crystal meth guy.

[00:23:12] No heroin. Towards the end of that relationship, he overdosed on heroin. I don't know why I woke up, but I'm glad I did. And I looked over and he was blue and she wasn't breathing. And I had no medical training at all. Didn't know what to do. So I called 911. Obviously they came and gave him Narcan and he survived and I thought he was dead and they brought him back and it felt like magic.

[00:23:38] And I was just like, I never want to be in a position where somebody needs my help and I don't know what to do ever again. Did any part of you want him to be dead? Yes. I love when people get honest on my podcast. There's a big part of me that thinks the world would be a better place without him. I know that you meet somebody who ultimately becomes the father of your first child. Hmm. Is there anything around that having your first child that leads to where we are today?

[00:24:05] I mean, after that whole, that relationship, like the suicidal ideation, once like I started something, like it didn't go away. Once I started thinking about it, it was a seed that was planted in my brain that was just there. That's something I think that people don't think about is like, you can solve a situation. You can get out of a situation that's making you feel suicidal. And that doesn't necessarily mean it's going to solve your suicidal ideation, you know, fix it, take it away from you.

[00:24:34] Yeah. I think we're always trying to not kill ourselves until we're done. And then we try. That's something people don't realize though, that if they aren't suicidal. And also there never will. That's what I learned about this podcast is that I actually stopped trying to educate them. Suicide is so lonely. Like you want that understanding from the people that mean the most to you. I am a person that I try to be like kind and compassionate, but like I, I'm human as well.

[00:25:03] And, um, a very human feeling that I've had is anger towards people that I love. You're acting like I'm too much. You're acting like I'm stressing you out. This is hard for you or whatever. Like, or like I'm choosing this or, you know what I mean? Like my dad will be like, man, I just feel so bad for you. There's always something with, that is so not helpful. Hear him say is, wow, Jess, you're such an unhappy, miserable person. And it makes me think suicide.

[00:25:32] Dad aside, I'm not picking on your father. This is important. The way people respond to people in pain are part of the reasons why they kill themselves. Yes. That's Sean saying it. That's what the intro part of the intro to this podcast is. This, this is the thing that I think people, if there was one takeaway and it's like one of these very bold comments, you generic lay person out there are contributing to someone's suicide probably right now. And you don't realize it. Yes. It's not your fault. No, it's not your fault.

[00:25:58] Absolutely. It's complicated. And it's just that some, most of them are well-intentioned. I don't know how many, most of them, but it doesn't matter. People in pain need certain things and they absolutely don't need other things. And we give them the things they don't need. Yeah. I actually like, I did have some complicated feelings about being on this podcast because of my parents actually. Well, they don't have to hear it.

[00:26:21] I think they will. I did tell them before I did it. I wanted to prep them. My parents are more private people. I mean that like my parents are great people, very loving, and they help me out immensely. But like, it's, it's not like they're not trying to be that way. You know what I mean? That's just truly how they feel that like, that is something that you deal with personally. That is something you keep private. You're saying they're not trying to, fine. I agree. I'm sure they're not trying to do any harm,

[00:26:51] but that's just the way it is. That is coming. That is a very hard stance. And when that way you are is harming people, you don't get an out anymore for me. Sorry. So I'm, I'm super Christian, not Sean, no matter what, it's a sin. So you should be ashamed of yourself. No, you don't get a pass. And I know, especially with the God, cause it's almost like literally written into code. If that is the case with Christianity, if it's not, I'm wrong. It might be another religion.

[00:27:19] It doesn't matter. We give people passes too fucking much, way too much. And we always put the burden. We always put the blame on, on the justice of the world. It's not like, there's no ill intent behind it. Like I, I truly believe that. Like my dad will be like, I just don't get it. You have a great life. You have a family that loves you. This, you have kids, you have, you know what I mean? You have all this to live for. I don't understand.

[00:27:45] This is, I love this. I love these moments. Okay. What is the difference in the following? Ready? You have this, you have A, B, and C. I don't understand. You have A, B, and C. I don't understand. Tell me more about it. Cause they don't understand exact same words, different tone, presumably a different intention. I'm sure if you're like most people, you want people to understand, right? Maybe they can, maybe they can't, but even having the conversation,

[00:28:12] which is essentially a big part of what this, this podcast is just that is medicine. It is. My favorite people, um, are people that are curious. I think that's a very, um, undervalued characteristic being curious. People who are suffering, whether they're suicidal or not, most of them do want to talk about it. And some of them have therapists and some of them don't, and some of them have good therapists and some of them are bad. And on why are we limited to one

[00:28:41] person? Wouldn't a second or a third person be really helpful also? Yes. Say the word I don't understand, but say in a way where you want to understand and watch how your conversation radically changes. Right. Because when he was asking it, it didn't feel like that. It was that just like, why aren't you realizing? Why aren't you? It felt like he was saying, look, what's right in front of your face. You're not seeing it. You're ignoring it. And then in turn, I don't think he meant to

[00:29:10] make me feel that way. But then I go, I turn inward and I go, what is wrong with me? I do have two beautiful children. There are people living on the street. Yeah. The fact of the matter is you can drown in seven feet of water or you can drown in 10, but you're drowning either way. Not a memoir title. No, but, but it's true though. You know what I mean? Like suffering,

[00:29:34] pointing out somebody has it worse or that you have it worse. I mean, I understand the value of somebody in your life trying to point out where things are good and the premise of it. Maybe a little nudge or a reminder that you maybe forget. Okay, that's fine. You're right. There are people that are starving. You're not starving. There are people who don't have children and you have two lovely children. Um, there are people who don't have limbs. You have limbs. Maybe you do this forever. Right. There's also people, by the way, who were living in palaces. You don't live in a

[00:30:04] palace. Once the floodgates open, the floodgates, you had that thought back in the day when you were a teenager, I'd rather slice my throat than do this. And then from that point on, or maybe a little bit after that with the ex, the ideations you said, it kind of, they never completely go away. No, they, they don't. I fully anticipate suicide, um, suicidal ideation being a part of my life

[00:30:30] and my future. I mean, I don't know, and I'm not saying indefinitely, but like, uh, I, I, I've learned, like, I mean, for a while it was like, what can I, there has to be something I can do, like a cure, a fix, you know what I mean? And like the only thing that I've found that has, I focus more on, I'm not going to get rid of it. What can I do to minimize it? The thing that really, um, fights back for me is connection. Um, my therapist said something that was really

[00:30:57] interesting. He said, I've never, he said, I've met hundreds of people that have committed suicide. He said, I've never met one single person that committed suicide who felt deeply connected to even one individual. He, he counseled families. He would counsel families afterwards. Wait a second. Is he like, is he a specialist? Because that's still a huge number. Yeah. And I could have exaggerated the number, but very, very, very familiar with it. But he said, don't get me wrong

[00:31:25] though. He's like, I know many people that knew they were loved by their family. They knew they were cared about. They knew their family would be sad that they died. The thing that like my family or other people don't understand about that is, and I've heard people talk about it on your podcast before. I mean, it's not that suicidal people are being selfish or that they don't care.

[00:31:50] I remember in some of my suicidal, like my biggest suicidal moments are when I'm attempting suicide. All I was thinking about was my family. But to me, I remember thinking, I know my family is going to be devastated. And I don't think they realize the burden that I am for them. I don't think I re they realize how hard I'm making their life. I don't think I realized they realize the life that they

[00:32:16] could have if I wasn't here. I know they will be sad. I truly felt like they will heal and have better lives. Yeah. Who knows? That's another thing that other people need to understand. Like, you know, you telling me I'm not a burden. It's you're right. It's just the fact. I mean, you know, people are helping me. They're listening to me. You know what I mean? There's more happy. But yes. Yeah. I mean, I'm in crisis. I'm, you know, needing help. Absolutely. I feel the same

[00:32:44] way. You are a burden. And it doesn't make you a bad person for being a burden. Like this is something like chemical, biological going on in your brain. That helps me a little bit is like, yeah, I am being a burden, but I'm not choosing to be one. Yeah. But even if you were choosing to be one, it's still the same brain that's making the choice. All right. I want to. So a couple of things. You've tried to kill yourself. Yes. How many times? Twice. When was the first one? I think I was in

[00:33:13] my early twenties. I have known for a long time how I would kill myself if I was going to. Part of that is the exposure to suicide that I've had. So it pills for me. Yeah. Like you would, if you're a paramedic for 10 years, maybe you learn some shit. Yes. I, uh, I was going through postpartum depression. I was feeling very disconnected from, uh, my marriage. I was feeling disconnected from my

[00:33:40] newborn, which was a horrifying feeling. You feel like, you know, I'm a mom. That's my newest, like most important job. And I am not connecting with this little baby. I just remember being like, I wanted to be a mom my whole life and it didn't feel like I thought it was going to. I think that's coming with so many things in life. I wanted to be a TV reporter. I wanted to be a wife. I wanted to be rich. It's not what I thought it would be. But in this case, you wanted to be a mom

[00:34:07] and you were. And, and the weird thing about little babies, I don't know who's around your parents, your partner, whatever. Like if you have this, you still got to take care of them. Mm-hmm. Like you can't just set them aside for a week. Right. Like their constant attention. Is it fair to say, here's another truth bomb? Are there moments in which you hate your child? No. And I would be honest about it. Uh, there have been moments that I have resented my children. And I meant then specifically, cause you're dealing with postpartum, which is something.

[00:34:36] Then was one of them. Yeah. Like, I mean, like, holy, I was like, holy shit. My whole life has changed. Like this little blob is making me a prisoner in my own house. There's something I want to, to say that I think is important that I didn't say before. Like we started talking about my attempts. I told you about that overdose when I was in that relationship. We're jumping back just for a second.

[00:35:00] Sorry. When, when I saw those paramedics that I'm going to be a teacher went away. I was like, I'm going to save people. So my, my mom has been a paramedic for almost 30 years. And my dad is a fire captain and EMT. They never anticipated me following in their footsteps at ever, ever. They would have met money against it. And same with me. I was like, that is not what I went through. But like, um, when I broke up with that guy, I had to move because he didn't let go very easily. And on a

[00:35:30] whim, I jumped into an EMT class and loved it. But I wanted to mention my first suicide call that I went on, um, is a big part of like my suicide, my chronic suicidal ideation. Exposure, that kind of exposure. Yeah. Uh, I responded to a hotel for a welfare check. Um, boyfriend broke up with his girlfriend. He still had her location. She wasn't answering the phone and he was worried about her.

[00:35:57] And I was the first one in the door. The cops broke the door down. And when you open the door, you go like, right. When you look to the left, there's the bathroom and the light was on. And there was an 18 year old female laying in, in the bathtub and she was blue. She was blue. It was blood or no? No blood. She was just blue. I was 18 at the time walking in. So I, and then I walked further into the hotel room and there was just like probably 20 bottles

[00:36:23] and they were all empty and they were all different kinds of medications. There, there was no note. There was no phone call. She didn't tell anybody where she was. She picked a hotel so that nobody, that she loved would find her. This woman put thought into this. She wasn't crying for help. She was done. She was done. Just seeing somebody your age and you're walking into this and you're

[00:36:51] having suicidal ideation yourself. There's a little bit of imposter syndrome because the only thing that is separating me from that girl is like a uniform. No, you were in a different place than her. I mean, not always within days I had, you know, considered suicide. There's a huge difference between thinking about it and doing it. Yeah, that's true. There is. I mean, you tell me for your life, you've thought about it a lot, but you've only tried twice.

[00:37:18] You haven't tried a hundred times or a thousand times or every time you've thought about it. Most of the time, somehow you don't do it. I get it. You're two 18 year old women. One's blue and dead in a tub with pills everywhere or empty bottles and the others there in this completely different role. But weirdly it wouldn't take that much for it to be like you being in that tub. Yes. That's something like I think about her almost every day. Honestly, I carry her with me,

[00:37:43] feel deep empathy for her. Right now I'm not working as a paramedic. I was injured in a car accident. So like I've been having to deal with trauma that I was compartmentalizing while I was working. So like all of that, you know, was really coming back after this car accident. And that was when the second suicide attempt happened. It was after this car accident. And then I'm no longer allowed to do the thing that I'm passionate about. I'm like taken away from the career that I love.

[00:38:11] Your first attempt, you just had your child. My first attempt, I was not very good at it. I took one type of pill. Did you want to die or was it just postpartum mainly? No, I very much wanted to die. Well, both. I mean, the two can exist together, right? I definitely think postpartum played a part in it. Like it definitely escalated it for sure. I wanted to die more than I wanted anything else. Did you go to a hospital? I did. Did you know people there?

[00:38:40] I did not. Not that time. What happened there? They gave me a drug to counteract whatever I took. Did you get out? Did you spend the night or did you get out the same day? Yes. Yep. I was in the ICU overnight and my mom was there and she was like, she needs to go to a psych ward. Like she's like suicidal. Like things have been getting worse. I was in the ICU going, if these people lock me up, I will kill myself. I don't care. Why?

[00:39:07] If you take away my freedom, I'm done. I think that in a hundred years, we're going to look back on our mental health system now and we're going to call it barbaric. So your mom doesn't win that fight? No, no. The psychiatrist came in to do their rounds and she said, did you try to kill yourself? And I said, no, I was very upset. I was very distressed. I was in a verbal altercation with a partner and I just wanted to fall asleep and sleep for a long time.

[00:39:37] And you probably did sleep a little while, didn't you? Yes, I did. But you had to go to the hospital. Okay. Was your mom more empathetic or just pissed? Worried. It meant a lot for me to see that because I do feel like I see a lot of annoyance from people about it.

[00:39:55] And I think that's because the way that suicidal ideation plays a part in my life, how it shows up physically, how they see it, doesn't look the way that they think it should look. What do you think they're basing it on? I think they're basing it on like, okay, depression, you're sad. Or you're anxious, you're worried. Right. But like for me, when I'm anxious, I'm irritable.

[00:40:22] So they'll say something to me and I'll snap back at them and they'll be like, whoa, okay. Like, and it's like, no, I would love for them to understand. Like I'm coming from a place of like, when you hear that, I want you to think that's a symptom of a disorder, of a problem that is diagnosed, proven, real. It's a symptom. Right. You know what I mean? It's not someone choosing to be disrespectful.

[00:40:51] Why people don't understand what ideation feels like. One, they haven't gone through it. Two, we live in a culture and this is a lot. And I will straight up fucking say AFSP, big mental health organizations and that whole industrial, that complex, which is a profitable complex, by the way. Don't let you talk about it. I don't read minds. That's all we've done. You can talk about it and dance around it a little bit, but you get too close to the fire. We know exactly what's happening. Everybody knows what's happening.

[00:41:21] If you haven't, you'll learn. That is the way we do it. And that is why no one fucking understands shit. I mean, again, I told you, I think the best people are the curious ones, the ones that approach things with curiosity. I know that's easier said than done. And we make assumptions about a person based on how they act. And like, we're almost always wrong. Yeah, of course. It's super hard on a family member.

[00:41:45] When me having empathy for you, that's an unfair comparison to your dad, your daughter. Of course, it's going to be more emotionally charged. Yes, you could be curious about a lot of things. And he's probably really curious about like fire theory. It doesn't mean you're curious about everything all the time. I mean, everybody's got some streaks of curiosity in them, almost everybody. And there are people that are just generally curious. I'm not sure it's something you can teach.

[00:42:10] Nonetheless, it leads to some amazing moments of like, not enlightenment, but like, oh, me being a little curious. Now I kind of get just in a totally different way. Yeah. And that could take 40 fucking seconds. It's all about intent. And but I think it's it's worth it for me. Like, I like talking about things that matter. Didn't you put that into Google? Yeah, I think that like it helps with the suicide as well. You know what I mean?

[00:42:39] Like spending time thinking about deep, insightful things, meaningful things. And I feel like a startling amount of people in the world feel intense loneliness. Yes. I think that we could significantly drop that number just by opening up the conversation and being curious with each other. People are trying to do that, right? Some people are.

[00:43:06] And I think that like it's just like one of those things that I think every every individual is responsible for themselves to like learn how to be a person who learns people and can understand them and accept them. You know what's really interesting? Here's here's here's Sean's theory. It's not a theory. We do that. You know when we do it? Nursery, school and kindergarten. In kindergarten. They don't learn a lot in kindergarten. You know what you learn? How to get along. Yep.

[00:43:34] And part of that is you could argue might be curiosity. Are you OK? Then we stop. Now you got to learn how to read and write and do math and science and history. And I'm not saying we shouldn't. We, by and large, do not teach people the importance of empathy or listening. You see memes about it. Sure. You might listen to some Bernie Brown. I don't know. You like somebody. But we completely stop. And other things become way more important. Hours a day, whether it's at school or work and we are not.

[00:44:01] Even these fucking mental health days at work, they're HR checklists. They are. Everybody talks about suicide. It's the same fucking thing over and over again. It's here are the signs. Why am I looking for the signs so that you can stop them? OK. Not saying you shouldn't do that. But there's other conversations we could be having. Suicide prevention speaker. I tried. I almost tried. I knew somebody who died. I knew somebody who almost died. Insert a couple of stories. Take away. Don't do it.

[00:44:30] That's the exact same speech you get every time. Where's the conversation about what it's like to feel suicidal? Or what is it like just to wake up the next day after you had a failed attempt and your baby's crying after you come home from the hospital and you probably still feel the same fucking way? That's a good question. Thank you. People that aren't like us think that survival is a passive thing. For me, surviving is not passive.

[00:44:59] It is an active decision that I make multiple times a day. And I've made that decision multiple times a day for 13 years. But there's people in my life I think about. They don't think about surviving. That's the default. Mm-hmm. That's just, yeah, they're normal. That's just their normal. Yep. Yours is the opposite. Mm-hmm. Your default, you're saying, is not wanting to be alive.

[00:45:26] So you're choosing, choosing, I suppose we could use that word then, or struggling to survive. Mm-hmm. And in your case, managing, being a mom to two kids, a career, which I know has now been, you have a setback, but I imagine at some point, if you're alive, you can go back to work. But what was it like the next day or week when it's like, I wanted to die. I'm a young woman with a child. Waking up in the ICU, there was a lot of embarrassment and shame.

[00:45:56] Mm-hmm. And the first thought that I had, when I, I mean, I was a little confused, but once I realized what happened, my first thought, I remember verbatim thinking, holy fucking shit, I can't even get suicide right. What am I thinking? What are you thinking? No, tell me. I'm going to give you a minute. I'll say it back. Holy fucking shit, I can't even get suicide right.

[00:46:26] You're not going to like my answer because you're going to feel like I'm saying, taking something that's very serious and making it less serious. But I do understand and hear every word you said. It's a fucking memoir title, Jess. Jesus, you have to get on the same page with me with these memoir titles. Yes. No, I've heard that a lot, actually. And I actually, I've heard it too, you know, then on the other side of things, that's a low place to be at. But it does feel embarrassing.

[00:46:56] You know what I mean? Like, you have all these people rushing to take care of you, provide emergency care. Everybody's worried. Everybody's sad. Everybody's crying. You did that. You were one of those people. You're a paramedic. Did you feel that way about the people that you were helping? No. So maybe not everybody felt that way. Right. But isn't it weird to feel, not at all judging or evaluating the feelings of embarrassment or shame, but it's an interesting thing. And we've made it that.

[00:47:26] So you could argue, and this is just me guessing, that there is an inherent embarrassment or shame in trying to kill yourself. Maybe that's part of a survival mechanism we have. But also, we have compounded that greatly by the way we treat people and the way we talk to them and the way we make them feel afterwards. Yeah. And to me, that is, and this isn't an overstatement. I think that's a certain form of cruelty. Even on a very practical level, you're not reducing the chances of them not trying again when you act that way. Correct.

[00:47:56] That was one of the toughest lessons that I've ever learned, is that surviving suicide doesn't cure suicidal ideation. You're not done. I have listened to one of the survivors. There's two people that jumped off the Golden State Bridge that survived. I know. You're going to get me started here. I can't. I love Kevin. I've listened to him. And he talked about that concept. And he gave me something by giving me that.

[00:48:26] What did he give you? Because I take issue with Kevin, actually. I have some issues with Kevin as well. What I liked about... Well, what I related to deeply with him was... He said in that interview, I felt instant regret. That's his whole point. Yeah. That's not what resonated with me. What resonated with me was what he said after, which is because I felt regret, I thought

[00:48:52] that I had this realization in my head that I'm actually not suicidal. I don't really want to die. Well, he said what shocked me, what surprised me, what scared me was realizing that I'm still going to have to live the rest of my life being mentally ill, having suicidal ideation. I'm going to attempt suicide again. I might die by suicide. Powerful, yeah.

[00:49:20] You are living with suicide. But what we are doing here is something else I'm going to borrow from her. She had some interesting things to say is most people talk against suicide. We talk about suicide. That's not me encouraging you to kill yourself. You're 30. You'll do what you want. Yes. Absolutely. I'm not a fucking idiot to think that my words are going to change what you do. Right. So let's talk about it, right? So that's an interesting thing that you learned from him and that you learned about yourself. Yeah.

[00:49:49] And that was about eight years ago. And in those eight years, ideating regularly, it sounds like very. Have another kid at some point. Yes. I know there's other stuff going on in your life. You're working and you're doing whatever. And attempt number two, I'm going to guess wasn't that long ago. Maybe two years ago. I tweaked my method. You improved it in the way you thought it might improve. And again, you went to sleep. And when I woke up, it was a different feeling. It was shock.

[00:50:18] It was like, I cannot believe. That's the follow-up to the memoir. I can't fucking believe I didn't get suicide right, dot, dot, dot. Again. Whatever the words are. Yeah. It's hard to kill yourself, Jess. Yeah. It was a more complicated decision on how to kill myself because of my exposure to suicide. Teenagers often take a lot of acetaminophen or Tylenol.

[00:50:47] That will work, but it's a very painful and very slow way to die. I've seen that a lot. Like, I've cut people down from the ceiling. I even had a guy once use a box cutter and he almost decapitated himself. And a cop pulled him over and the cop came up to him. And as the cop approached, he just... And I mean, even non-suicide calls, you know, I saw death. And death is something that is scary at times.

[00:51:15] We talk about death as peaceful and natural. And it can be and it is. It's a natural thing. And it's a scary thing. It's an ugly thing. That was one of the hardest things about struggling with suicidal ideation for me. You said that you thought about being a paramedic. Tell me how you feel about this situation. You're in the back of an ambulance with someone and you're having a bad night and you've been thinking about suicide. You're not going to do it. You're safe.

[00:51:40] But you're taking a patient from one hospital to another for further care. That patient was a cancer patient, but he was very stable. He walked to my stretcher. He was talking to me perfectly. His family was like, I love you. See you in a few minutes. You know, we'll meet you down there. We're going to stop at home first, right? On the way to the hospital, he started saying he was short of breath. And it got worse and worse and he was panicking. He was DNR, which means do not resuscitate. So, I mean, I asked him, I'm like, do you want oxygen?

[00:52:10] You know what I mean? Like, that doesn't mean we can't treat him. It's up to him, his care. You know, what do you want? I will do whatever you want. And so I gave him oxygen. I gave him breathing treatments. I asked him if he wanted a breathing tube down his throat and he said no. But Sean, that man was looking at me with panic that I have never seen before. He was terrified. And he begged me not to let him die. He said, I don't, I'm not ready. I don't want to go.

[00:52:39] I'm scared. Please save me. And I was sitting there thinking, I, at the time, I'm in my 20s. I have a lot of life, if I'm lucky. Of course, you know, nobody's guaranteed anything to live. And I'm dreading it. And I felt so guilty. Here's this man that wants more than anything in the world. Life. I have it. I'm a healthy, physically healthy individual. Yep.

[00:53:09] And I'm sitting here with it, feeling ungrateful, not wanting it. Comparing that. You're doing the comparing thing again. Mm-hmm. But it makes total sense. Yeah. Did he die? He did die. In your care? Yes, he did. How does that feel? It was tough. It's hard seeing a dead body. It's a completely different thing to watch somebody transition from being alive to dead. Right. It's weird to think about being the last person that somebody spoke to. Somebody saw. All of that stuff.

[00:53:39] I spent a lot of time thinking, what if another paramedic was in the back of that truck? Could they have done something? Did I miss something? Did I forget something? And I mean, we were still 40 minutes from the hospital. And I'm a big respect person. So I sat in the back of the ambulance with his body for the rest of the way. I wanted to get up front and ride. But I was like, this is a human being. I'm not going to leave him back here by himself. And that was a really traumatic 40-minute ride for me. You know what I mean? I covered his body with a sheet. I closed his eyes.

[00:54:07] But I remember just sitting there. And I didn't cry. I just sat there in silence. And I was like, his family is going to be so shook. He walked over there. See you in a little bit. Bye. What happened? What was the cause of death? Well, he had stage 4 cancer. So a lot of people, they hang on until they're not around family to pass away. Because I told you, it can be a very ugly process.

[00:54:36] And people don't want to be remembered that way. And so I truly believe that people have enough control to be able to wait for a moment when their family isn't around to pass away so that their family doesn't have to live with that. Yeah. I agree. That's interesting. You tried two years ago, but you Googled something last week. You Googled something where my podcast came up about a week ago. Why?

[00:55:05] I'm not doing great still. I'm not doing very well. I'm in a partial hospitalization program right now. I graduate actually on Friday. I've been in it for six weeks. Highly recommend that to anybody listening. Outstanding, outstanding, outstanding. I learned a lot of stuff while I was there. I think that I've seen how broken the system is.

[00:55:29] Even while I was at this partial hospitalization program, there was a time where my insurance was like, no, she's good enough. She's done. And they tried to dump me out and discharge me. And these people had to go to bat for me like three times appealing it to get it covered. It's unbelievable. It's just unbelievable. So I mean, I graduated on Friday. And then I told you I'm not working right now. And, you know, being a first responder was a big part of my identity. Yeah.

[00:55:59] Helping people was a big part of who I am. And so not having that has fed into that suicidal ideation, right? Like, because I think one thing that fights it is purpose. Feeling like you're doing something meaningful. I reached out to you and listened to or I looked for your podcast. I looked for something to listen to that was going to give me like some inspiration. Like, what do I care about? What am I passionate about?

[00:56:29] What do I want to talk about? What do I want to work towards? I mean, right now I have a two pound weight restriction on my wrist. There's a very good chance I have to be able to carry 100 pounds to get back to a truck. I might not be able to do that ever again. That's scary when you spent 10 years doing something and it feels like your passion. And then all of a sudden it's taken from you. You know what I mean? And so when I was looking for your podcast, I wasn't looking for somebody to reach out to.

[00:56:57] I just was really I have never heard anything like this before. So I was very compelled to. There is nothing else like this. Yeah, I know. It's not weird though. There should be. There needs to be because like, I mean, it is hard to talk about suicide and not censor things. And it needs to be done. It's important work. Who's doing the censoring? I feel like a lot of suicidal people feel like they have to censor themselves around people that aren't suicidal.

[00:57:24] It might vary from person to person, but why do you think that is? Because a lot of us are scared that we're going to be judged or worse. We're going to be like locked up. So you don't talk about it or you don't talk about it as much. More often with people that are close to you, you change how you talk about it. What we're really doing by having a culture like that is creating more suicides. That's the irony that just blows my fucking mind. Yeah, it's such a problem. It's such an epidemic in this country. And like, it's... It's not just here. Right. I know.

[00:57:54] I mean... But it should be said to everybody out there, whether you realize it or not, you are contributing to that when you don't let someone talk. And also, by the way, before they kill themselves, they're fucking in pain and suffering, whether you can see it or not. And that sucks too. It's not your fault. It's just many people could do way fucking better. But most of them don't know it. So how do you bridge that gap? Because guess which podcast they're not listening to? Right. Honestly, I don't have a good answer for that.

[00:58:23] It's something that I've been searching for myself. I think that the whole system might just have to collapse for things to get better. Yeah, me. I'm a little bit biased about my opinion just from working in a psychiatric ward and seeing who would respond to somebody. I would have to write my reports a certain way. If I worded it the wrong way, insurance would be like, yeah, we're not going to pay for that. Why couldn't they go buy a secure car? They didn't need an ambulance.

[00:58:53] And then they bill the patient for the rest. You know what I mean? That also kills people when you bill them. They die because of that. That's why those people are called criminals. But it's not a person. It's an organization. Cool. Your organization is a criminal organization. Oh, Sean, you're being dramatic. No, I'm not. We're allowed. It's like, oh, but they do some good too. I'm like, yeah, so the cartels in Mexico take care of their village. They do a lot of good. There's still criminal organizations that decapitate people. The mafia in their neighborhoods are gods. Why?

[00:59:22] They help people, but they're in control for a reason. And they do some bad shit too. It's not black and white. Yeah. But you're still a criminal organization. When you heard a couple years last year on that dude killed the CEO of the healthcare company, your first reaction, gut reaction. I feel terrible that somebody lost their life. And wow, that's what it took to have this conversation. And are we having that conversation?

[00:59:48] No, but I feel like we're having some conversations that I think could lead to it. I don't know that they will because of the way the world is. But I mean, I think that it's a process. You know what I mean? We're not going to wake up tomorrow and everybody is going to ask the right question. You just have too many old, powerful white men in these clubs running everything. You want change? It's not coming from them. How many people know that you attempted that aren't professionals? Quite a few people know.

[01:00:14] Mostly, I share that with people that I feel like I can see that are struggling. And it's more of a one-on-one type conversation. I refuse to accept to just say suicide is a taboo topic when people are dying, like you said. There was a lot of shame after I did it. I don't have as much shame now, though. I'm living with something that is very complicated, that has taken many lives, that people struggle with deeply on many different levels.

[01:00:42] It's a real medical condition. I can't expect people to understand me or learn about me if I'm not open with them and sharing with them. Also, you never know who else is thinking like that. Unless you learn how to read minds. Take that class. Go register at the community college for that course. Could you send me a link for it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because if you can do that, maybe things will change. Way more people are thinking about it. And I'm not saying that just because it makes this type of work more meaningful.

[01:01:11] Like, they just don't talk about it. And I don't blame them at all. Did you ever get a diagnosis you agree with? Yes, but it took a while. When I was 17, I went to a pediatric psychiatrist. My mom made me. It was more, again, that abusive relationship type of thing. They were, like, pushing me in therapy and psychiatry to definitely help. But I was diagnosed with depression and anxiety and ADHD. And I agreed with the ADHD for sure. That diagnosis was life-changing. Medicating helped a lot.

[01:01:41] Depression and anxiety, it wasn't that I thought I wasn't depressed and anxious. But it didn't feel like the full picture to me, if that made sense. And then when I became an adult and went to an adult doctor, I had a very bad experience. Like, I was on meds. I was about 60 pounds heavier. I was still not doing well. I had a car accident. And that doctor accused me of taking one of my anxiety pills before driving and causing that.

[01:02:11] I had no blood work done. Like, there was no evidence. I don't know what made him think that that happened. But he stopped giving me my anxiety medications because of it. I had never been accused of misusing drugs. But I was like, I stayed with him. And I just took different meds that he gave me. And I was having a really bad weekend. And I was having panic attack after panic attack. And I called the on-call number.

[01:02:38] I was like, I don't know if I should go to the ER. And he was on vacation. But their on-call doctor was like, I'm going to prescribe you just a little bit of Ativan to get you through until you can get back in with your doctor. My doctor called me the next day. And he said, I can't believe you would call and go around me and ask for benzodiazepines. Is that, wait, no, no, no. I didn't call to go around you. You weren't there. And that was the on-call doctor. And I thought that was the protocol.

[01:03:08] I thought that's what they were for. And also, I want to be very clear. I didn't say, can I have XYZ medication at all? I said, I'm having multiple panic attacks. This is getting unbearable. What can I do? Yeah. Also, his job is to help you, period. Not to get his ego. Come on. Yep. So I left that practice. And I met my psychiatrist now. And his name is Rob.

[01:03:34] And my intake session was like two hours for a doctor to take that kind of time. And he listened to how devastated I was about what happened with that doctor. He listened to everything. And he's like, I don't know how your doctor missed this, but I feel pretty strongly that you're bipolar. And nobody had ever suggested that to me before. Ever. We started treating that.

[01:04:01] More recently, we've kind of been having conversations of, is it borderline personality disorder or bipolar disorder? This is big these days, yeah. Yep. I think my doctor still has it in his notes as bipolar disorder. I do feel like I resonate when I look at the symptoms and the descriptions more with borderline personality disorder than bipolar disorder. I feel like I look at it and I'm like, wow, did they write that about me?

[01:04:29] Honestly, that's a comforting feeling to see your symptoms because you feel like something is wrong with you and people are telling you that you're doing something wrong. Yeah, yeah. And then you see it on black and white. And you're like, oh, other people are all struggling through that. And that's the symptoms. It's not a behavior that I'm choosing. Pink and purple pill time, Jess. Man, I've been stressing about this. Stressing? Mm-hmm. It's just a pink and purple little pill. It's not even big. Would you prefer a tablet or a capsule? Oh, a capsule.

[01:04:58] There's no negotiating the color. That's okay. That happens to me. Purple is my favorite color, so I'm good. We're half good. Go to sleep. Don't wake up. No pain. Nobody knows the suicide. What would you do with it? Honestly, I thought I was going to answer that I would get rid of it. I really did. But I don't think I would. With the borderline personality, one of the things that comes with that is your mood changes a lot. Your thought process changes a lot. You have more moments of clarity, more moments of irrationality.

[01:05:28] To me, a huge part of it would be what state of mind am I in when I'm being offered this pill? Because even today, with how I'm doing right now, I think there's a time and a place that you could offer me that pill and my answer would be I'm going to take it. However, I think that my answer is that I would keep the pill, which sounds dangerous, but for me, I overthink things. And I also think I don't want to die of a terminal illness someday.

[01:05:56] I don't want to, you know what I mean, have prolonged suffering that way. Like we talked about that embarrassment of failed suicide attempts, even though I can acknowledge that it's irrational. Having a pill that is a guaranteed, like, it's going to work. Yeah, it would be hard to say no to. If I asked you half your life ago at 15, that 30-year-old Jess would have tried to kill herself twice and is currently suicidal, what would she have said? She would be speechless.

[01:06:26] She would just be like, I mean, like 15-year-old Jess was just sheltered, naive, quiet, very docile. You know what I mean? Like, so I wouldn't believe it at all. I'm glad I didn't know that to know that you're going to go through that. Do you worry that you passed any of your genes on to your daughters and that must be a big thing, right?

[01:07:17] Yep. of my genes causing her suffering down the road. Oh man, it tears me apart. It tears me apart. And I will say though, my oldest is eight and I was in that relationship for six years. So that breakup was hard for her too. I got her in play therapy. She's eight and like, wow, I wish that

[01:07:44] as a child, I had that resource because the things that she's learning and you know, kids brains are sponges. You know what I mean? That's the ideal time to learn. You know, she's able to, I, I, as a mother, you want your child to feel like they can come to you with anything. You want to be that person, you know, I'm your mom. You can come to me and tell me anything. But I know as a paramedic and like working with law enforcement and stuff, kids are going to lie

[01:08:11] to their parents. There's things that my child is not going to feel safe telling me. And the best thing that I can do for her is give her a safe place where she knows that she can go and give that information, have that conversation. And it's confidential between her and that person. So like for me, it's about like breaking generational like mistakes. Let's intervene earlier. Let's notice

[01:08:39] things earlier. Let's get people on the, on the right track sooner. Let's get these habits going way sooner because like learning them as an adult is a lot harder. A lot harder. When's your birthday? December 8th. Will you be here? Yes, I will. How many people in your life do you have that you can talk to about suicide? Three. Therapist is one? Mm-hmm. Both? Psychiatrist. Both paid, but okay?

[01:09:08] And my friend Jennifer. Go Jennifer. Hey, Jennifer. Unpaid Jennifer. I don't know. Unpaid Jennifer. Yeah, low-key. Just got to say, Jennifer is one of the, you know, the people that you meet in life that change you. Those special people, she was one of them. And she was the one that reached out right after my suicide attempt. She didn't know about the suicide attempt, but after I had my baby and I tried to kill myself, it was weird. Only a couple days later,

[01:09:36] she reached out and she said, hey, how are you doing? I just know how isolating being a new mom is. And my daughter had health issues and she knew my relationship wasn't that great. And she was just like, I just feel like you need to know that like if you need to come over here, like you can hang out. And she's like, I'm a nurse. I know how to work in NG tube. I can like take the baby. I know that only sleeping for three hours isn't like just you're setting

[01:10:00] yourself up for failure. She like, she just came out of no, I knew her, like of her. I've seen her a few times, but like she just came in to my inbox and like changed my life. I see her every day now. She has six children who are amazing human beings. They're like my kids. That family is like what I want. The family that I'm raising to be like accepting, kind, open. Let's have the hard

[01:10:29] conversations. I want to know. You know what I mean? I love you. I don't want you to carry this by yourself. My job is not to judge you. My job is to be your mom. I might not be able to fix it for you, but you don't have to carry it by yourself. Jennifer gave me that gift when I needed it. The most, I would not be alive without her. She said things that like not a lot of people say,

[01:10:59] like she said, just so you know, if you're thinking about like, if you're having thoughts of killing your baby, you're not a bad mom. She said that to me. You know what I mean? She's keeping it really real. Yeah. Yes. But I appreciate people like that. Sometimes people need to hear that like, oh, it is okay. Like, you know what I mean? Oh, I can tell somebody that I'm not going to get locked up. The takeaway from that though is when you, when you're thinking about what kind of person you want to be, be like Jennifer, even though I was somebody that she

[01:11:26] barely knew. She's, she, she saw a sense of suffering. She reached out and he kept it real. Maybe there needs to be a Jess and Jen podcast. Yeah. You know, I would love to keep talking about this stuff. I always just feel like people don't want to hear what I have to say. Okay. Some do. You don't know where they are yet. Biggest myth. People always say the family one on here. So I'm not going to say that one. I'm going to say a different one. Give me something different. I'm excited. What is it?

[01:11:54] It's going to, it's from a provider standpoint, actually. Okay. I think that a huge myth is that like when I was in paramedic school, I was taught that like, you don't show emotion because this isn't your emergency. This isn't your grief. This isn't your problem. So like you go there and your emotions are in check. What I learned in real life, people

[01:12:19] don't want a robot delivering the worst news they're ever going to get. One of the worst things about my job is telling a mother that their child is dead, especially like by suicide, something so complicated that that sound that they make afterwards truly gut wrenching. And if I was a mom getting that news, I don't even want to think about it. Right. But like if I was, and I saw a tear fall from the

[01:12:45] paramedic's face, I wouldn't be like, she's trying to steal my grief. She, I would be like, this is a human being who is empathizing with me, who sees that I'm going through something horrific and is identifying with me as a human and empathizing with me. It's okay to be vulnerable with these people, to talk to them, be gentle with them and kind to them. And it's okay to be personal. I've talked to them about my personal life before. I've had some very meaningful

[01:13:13] conversations because of that. And I think that it's a huge mistake to go into it. I understand that we can't run on emotion working in medicine. We're not talking about like black or white here, right? Yeah, exactly. I think that there, but that's something that you can't teach in school though. You can change your curriculum that, so it doesn't constantly reinforce that you should be a robot. Hey, you know who has, I think, a slightly higher suicide attempt rate than the general population? Paramedics.

[01:13:42] Yeah. And the thing with that, there's another layer, which is when you're in a first responder, you wear your jadedness like a badge of honor. That didn't bother me. Like, I'm good. Because people will be like, oh, you're crying because of a death? Like, you're in the wrong profession. Why are we making it cool to see something traumatic and not let it bother us? You know what I mean? Yeah. I mean, I understand not letting it tear you up, right? You got to take care of yourself. You can't

[01:14:12] linger on these things. And, you know, a human life was just taken. Somebody's daughter, somebody's friend, somebody's brother, you know what I mean? A life is gone. It gets like, it gets to be a normal, you know, a normal thing. You just like, oh, onto the next one, onto the next one. You know what I mean? Um, how do you cope? So I love reading. I'm a big fan of thrillers. And then I write, uh, I journal and then I write poetry.

[01:14:41] I was waiting for like drugs, alcohol and cutting. I do smoke weed, uh, medically. I, um, I'm in, I have chronic pain from the broken backing risks. I don't take narcotic pain pills, um, longterm due to some past trauma. So, um, I do smoke marijuana for pain control. I don't drink. I don't like the way it makes me feel.

[01:15:04] It messes with my meds. Spending time with my friends is a big one as well. Uh, adult conversation. I just like, I've been a lot more intentional this year. My biggest lesson that I've learned is like, I've spent my whole life putting a lot of emphasis on romantic relationships. I've been in a lot of relationships and like, um, I learned this year that it's not about just romantic relationships.

[01:15:29] Like for example, Jennifer, to me, like she feels like my soulmate. Like I right now, like I'm not looking for romance even because like I have a connect, a deep connection with somebody that's, you know, able to talk to me about these things that matter that be there for me and like is accepting. And if I need them, I can show up there. I have somewhere to go. It's a judgment-free zone. I'm just so grateful for those types of types of relationships. Like I know there's time for that

[01:15:58] other stuff to come, but like right now, like I think that just like the more time we focus on the negative things in our life, the more we're going to think about them. Finding micro moments of joy in your life and being connected to the present, to the best of your ability seems to be the way that I've noticed is the best way to be happy. One thing that really I do is I stop in those moments and I say

[01:16:26] thank you to my past self that sat with suffering that I went through so that I was able to experience this moment of joy right now. The other day my daughter woke up and she was, it was my two-year-old. She goes, good morning mama. Like, and it was, you know, little kid voices. That's so cute. Like that, but it was the first time she strung all those words together like that. And it was, that's really cool.

[01:16:52] I remember I was just like, oh my gosh, I could have missed that. I could not be here right now to hear that. You know what I mean? And so I took a moment and I said, thank you to myself. You know, thank you for sitting with the things that felt impossible to sit with so that I got to experience that moment of happiness. Cause I will remember that for a long time. Can you hear me? Remember that? That was two hours ago. Can you hear me? Yep.

[01:17:20] Amongst other possible titles, which we didn't, we don't have to settle on one. Anything else you want to add Jess? I think the only thing that I want to say is like, just remember that, um, nothing in life is permanent. So like, yes, I've been struggling with suicidal ideation for 13 years, but it ebbs and flows, but it's easy to forget that in those low moments where you're really suicidal that it feels

[01:17:49] like, I will never not be this way. Like it's never going to be in a place where I feel like I'm willing to keep living. Like it's not going to change. And like, just reminding yourself, like, yes, it is hard to sit with hard things and like, be curious with yourself. Do it anyways, sit with it and try something new to do it while you're sitting with it. And don't forget the next

[01:18:15] day. Say thank you to yourself. It's never going to, I'm not saying it's going to go away. I mean, a lot of people would hear you and appreciate your words and embrace them. I'm just saying that like, it's just hard. It's fucking hard to do. Absolutely. It's very hard to do. And it's very lonely. I mean, for me at the end of the day, the biggest thing that I've learned is like to fight suicidal ideation. Connection is a big thing.

[01:18:41] A lot of people can't make friends, Jess. Right. You're right. I mean, they just, there is no one in their life beyond the transactional relationship with the guy at the supermarket. I mean, a lot of people, not like one to 2%. I know. I don't know the numbers and I don't know what this and the difference with social media and how we account for it. But as people don't know how slash can't or are unable to get enough connection. There was a guy I talked to last month. So interesting. We use the

[01:19:11] word connection, which works, but never was quite the right word for me. And he said, do you know what I want that I don't have or I'm afraid of losing because his dad is getting older and dying? I just want somebody whose company I enjoy. And obviously vice versa. Do you enjoy each other's company? And it sucks if you can't find it. And then if you do, maybe Jennifer's one

[01:19:35] example. Boy, oh boy. It's like, it might sound like a meme or a whatever. I'm using the wrong word probably, but it's like, that's the person that can save a life. When you're in that life and you don't have anybody, you might never have anybody, right? There is no guarantees in this life. You could be alone forever until the day you die, whether you kill yourself or you die naturally.

[01:19:59] Yeah. You're probably talking to one of them right now. Yep. And if you kill yourself today, you're definitely not 100% not. But some people want that, Jess. They think they want that. Ah, okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. I challenge them. I challenge them to ask themselves, do I want that? Or do I want just a break from the agony for a little while? Yeah. But I mean,

[01:20:27] a lot of them all say, I've been looking for the break for 20 years and I can't find it. So I said you have a split answer there. If you asked a lot of people, some would be like, yeah, no, that makes sense. I hear you. Others would be like, no, no, no. I actually do want to kill myself. And if I had the pink and purple pill, I wouldn't hesitate to take it. It's different for everybody. That's why each of these conversations is kind of unique and they never get old. And I'm like, wow, that was interesting. One thing I've learned and I've been thinking more and more about

[01:20:50] of late. Most people know what they need. They just can't do it. Yes. Help, help them do it. Yep. I had friends over here yesterday from my P my partial hospitalization program. They cleaned my whole apartment for me. Yeah. Yeah. That could look a million ways. Stop telling people what to do and fucking help them do it. Yep. And they still might kill themselves, but help them. Your words can be magically powerful sometimes. Of course, when you hear people continually tell you these things,

[01:21:20] it's like, I'm not a fucking imbecile. I just can't do what you think is easy for you to do. I can't do it. Do you understand the difference? And they don't. I'm really good at a few things and really bad at other things. Some people would look at like my external hard drive was a weird example. Like why in the world would you have not just created simple folders? My brain hasn't worked that way, man. That's a cop out. Call it what you want. But I can have a conversation with somebody who wants to kill themselves and not going to be a good conversation for two hours. Can you

[01:21:50] do that? Probably not. But your folders are in really good order. Yeah. We're different. I can't explain to you why it's so hard for me to organize certain things in my life. Maybe I haven't undiagnosed something. Maybe that's just the way I am. Maybe we live in a world where we're asking us people to organize way too many fucking things. So there's all of the above, right? But like, but you could have helped me do it. It would have taken you three minutes. Absolutely. So people try. I know.

[01:22:16] I'm not, I'm pointing fingers. I'm guilty of it too. I'm sure plenty of the time. Um, what's the rest of your day like in Iowa? Go and pick up the kiddos. I had them with my mom for this conversation. I just wanted to say like, thank you for getting back to me. Thank you for having me. Um, I thought this was a great conversation. It helped me, um, feel purposeful. You know what I mean? Just talking about something that mattered and to the people that are listening, I don't know them, but I'm

[01:22:45] somebody, a stranger that's rooting for them, pulling for them, caring for them. There are people out there that they know that are rooting for them and want them to get better. Let us hope so, Jess. Yeah. I appreciate talking with you. Thank you. And I hope the rest of your day with your kitties are good. It was nice to meet you. I am glad that you're doing this. I'm glad you're still here with whatever you went through. You seem like a nice person. I'm glad we met. So

[01:23:12] thanks, Jess. Appreciate it. You too. Have a good day. As always, thanks so much for listening and all of your support special. Thanks to Jess in Iowa. Thanks, Jess. If you are a suicide attempt survivor or ideator and you'd like to talk, please reach out. I'd love to talk with you. Hello at suicidenoted.com. If you've got a moment and you listen on Apple, give us a rating, give us five stars. I'd really appreciate that. And I

[01:23:38] appreciate you listening. And that's all for this week's episode. Stay strong, do the best you can. I'll talk to you soon.