Indigo in Michigan

[00:00:00] If I had cancer, I'd be allowed to end my life in certain states. Like, how is this not equivalent to the same level of suffering as cancer?

[00:00:51] You know I'm being kind when I say that. We're really bad at it. So one of my goals with this podcast is to have more conversations, and hopefully better conversations, with attempt survivors and ideators, in large part to help more people in more places hopefully feel a little less shitty and a little less alone. Now, if you are an attempt survivor or someone who has thought or does think about ending their own lives, I would love to talk with you. Please reach out, hello at suicidenoted.com.

[00:01:19] A couple of ways you could help this podcast, and we do need help. Even though it's been over six years and hundreds of episodes and great conversations, this podcast and this guy needs some help. So one thing, pretty simple, rate us on Apple. And I would appreciate it if you gave us five stars, anything lower doesn't help, but only if you mean it. And you can make a financial contribution, tax deductible. The link is everywhere. You'll find it in the show notes, the episode description, the website, and elsewhere.

[00:01:46] So either of those, and there's some other stuff too, including some volunteering. So reach out if you have a question about any of that. Finally, we're talking about suicide here on this podcast. My guests and I do not hold back, so please take that into account before you listen or as you listen. You can always hit pause. But I do hope you listen because there's so much to learn. Today I am talking with Indigo. Indigo lives in Michigan and she is a multiple suicide attempt survivor. Indigo, how's it going?

[00:02:16] It's going. Indigo in Michigan. That's got a nice little ring to it. Thanks. Yeah. Thanks for talking with me. Appreciate it. You're welcome. What has you talking to a virtual stranger about suicide? That's a pretty direct question, no? I don't know. I guess I find it helpful when I've listened to multiple episodes of the podcast. And when I'm really in crisis, I actually find it helpful. Wow. Yeah. That's kind of music to my ears in some very bizarre way. I think someone on Reddit recommended your podcast. Really?

[00:02:46] Yeah. I'm showing up on Reddit? Okay. And then you reached out? Yeah. It's been like a hard year and a half. So it was just like, he talks to a lot of people. So I kind of reached out because I was like, well, maybe somebody he's talked to has ideas, but I haven't tried. Ideas to live or ideas to die? Ideas to get better. Yeah. Did you find anything? Not yet. No. I don't know if it's the best podcast for that, but maybe sometimes. I don't know. There's also a lot of episodes. So depending on if you're interested, you know. Anyway, I appreciate it.

[00:03:15] I know it's probably not the easiest thing in the world to do to talk about this stuff. Yeah. I mean, I think there's only like a few episodes, even with a suicide podcast, like discussing like detailed methods and kind of like, I don't know if you should throw that out on the world. Yeah. Those are questions I ask myself too when I'm editing. Like, do I keep this in? Do I not? I tend to lean towards if the guest is okay with keeping it in, I'm okay with keeping it in. But I can see both sides to that argument.

[00:03:42] You know, I also think there's nothing people can't rather easily find on Google or elsewhere. Like it's 2026. That's true. I mean, I've asked my psychiatrist if I take X number of pills will actually kill me and she'll usually give me a truthful answer. I was like, why do you do that? I just like, because you can Google it. Yeah. That's a, it's an interesting spot, particularly for a doctor to be in when she answers the question and your relationship allows her to not call the cops on you or call, call the authorities.

[00:04:11] I've only had her say that once. That would actually be this year. And it was adult protective services on my friend who hits me, but she said she didn't have to because she didn't think I met the legal definition of vulnerable adult. So that's good to know. So that wasn't suicide related, but that was duty of care. I don't know the right words. It still kind of surprised me. Like I know the laws. So that still surprised me.

[00:04:38] I've had a lot of conversations with people and when they were talking with their doctors or therapists, there were surprising things that came from that when they said certain things. I mean, you know, not to laugh at it. It's just like, wow. Okay. Doctors are people and people are imperfect. Here we are talking. It's a Saturday. Have you tried to end your life at some point? Multiple times. Multiple times, meaning multiple don't know how many or? I don't think I know how many anymore. We're talking about I actually tried to end my life probably over 30 times.

[00:05:08] All right. So that puts you in a category of not that many people I've talked to. Really? I don't, if I had to guess, I would say probably 10% at most. And clearly I suck at it since I'm still alive. Indigo, you are awful at it. You're probably good at many things, but you suck at ending your life. Now the big question as we speak today is, do you wish you were better at ending your life and you weren't here? As we speak on a Saturday in early May.

[00:05:34] Considering that I'm right now contemplating suicide or becoming homeless in Chicago, which I'm told is just a slow form of suicide, like leaving town possibly Tuesday morning. Shit. The timing of this conversation. Wow. Yeah. It had stuff happen this week and I no longer have a psychiatrist, a therapist or a case manager and I'm on social security disability. So I need professionals to continue to verify the disability. All right.

[00:06:03] So your world is crumbling. Yeah. Why did you lose all of those services? I've had issues with my local community mental health and I guess I just hit a final straw. The dumb part is if the person would just apologize to me, everything would be rectified. I just don't know how to go about getting the apology because the action really wasn't horrible. Like I was supposed to have a psychiatry appointment Thursday and I found out Tuesday that they never put it in the system.

[00:06:30] But instead of the receptionist just kind of saying, hey, I'm sorry, I don't know what happened. And she got defensive because Tuesday I was simply trying to figure out what the hell happened. She got defensive. She said because I didn't have an appointment card that the appointment didn't exist. It did. I wrote it in my phone like I have OCD and I directly entered it into my phone. And when I do that, I read it back to the person to confirm that everything's right.

[00:06:55] And then they called Wednesday and they've called me like three times in the past month about scheduling appointments, which I was like, well, that doesn't make sense. I have an appointment. And then they called me Wednesday and said the psychiatrist or something opened up schedule, but it wasn't for Thursday. And at that point, I was just annoyed with like being called four times in a month. But instead, again, I'm apologizing. She's like, well, no, like the person who was scheduled at 930 was scheduled since February.

[00:07:22] And I'm like, when I tried to say my appointment was scheduled for nine a different time, she completely cut me off. And after that, I sent an email because my case manager and my therapist are connected with CMH. I hate how the CMH does things. Jackson County and Kent County where I used to live, like their CMH just hired contract agencies to perform the services. So you had choice. This CMH, everything is all inclusive.

[00:07:49] So once you lose one person, you kind of lose everything. That sounds like there's an injustice happening. My friend, I don't know, she might try to like mediate the situation. I don't know what's going on, but I don't know how you just can get cut off unless you're threatening to kill them. What other grounds could they possibly have for terminating? They didn't terminate at me. I closed my case. All right. So you're like, fuck you all. I mean, I wrote my therapist Tuesday email.

[00:08:16] I didn't get any response like, hey, if you want to pass this on to the supervisor, that's fine. More importantly right now, you don't have any care and you might lose your services. And in a few days, you're going to be homeless in Chicago, maybe. Yeah. Why wouldn't you be homeless in Michigan? Why would it be Chicago? I want to cross state lines. So if I'm reported as a missing person, nobody can find me. Because if I end up dead, I guess I just don't want anyone to have to identify my dead body. So you've thought this out. So I have.

[00:08:46] Now, most people in this situation would say that I have a responsibility as a human being to tell you what to do or what to think or what to do or what not to do or who to call. But I don't do that. One, you know all the things you can or choose not to do. Two, the moment I do that, you're probably pissed off and not wanting to talk to me about what we're here for. So that's why from day one, I've never done that. And actually, I just don't do that with people in my life. Unless they like legitimately, and this is rare, like don't know about a resource.

[00:09:16] Then of course, I'll say like, did you know that there's a resource like this? But like, that's just not very common anymore. Anyway, that doesn't apply to you. So with 30, we're not talking about all your attempts. I think it would be talking about the ones I actually remember. Before you talk about them in any detail, how many do you remember? Probably 10. Do you remember the first time you tried to end your life? Eight. Do you know at eight years old why you wanted or tried to end your life? When I was diagnosed with asthma around that time, and not like just taking an inhaler

[00:09:44] occasionally, like breathing treatments four times a day kind of asthma. But I also had been sexually abused from my father from about three years old to upper elementary school. I don't really remember the abuse, but my mom thinks it started when she was in the hospital with my sister. And being dragged to therapists and stuff, I just don't remember liking it. And that attempt was definitely an attempt of an eight-year-old. I literally stood in the middle of the road, like walking back from school and asked someone

[00:10:14] to run over me with their car. You're eight, you're young, you don't know what you're doing, but the intention matters. That's what that's. The point is you didn't, you were suffering and you, you know, wanted out or wanted something to change. Yeah. I'm assuming nobody took you up on that offer. No, they laughed at me. The driver laughed at me. And so here, the question I always ask is, so you're still the next hour after or that night or the next day, you're still struggling. I don't think anyone really like noticed.

[00:10:43] I don't think my mom noticed or she couldn't cope with it because of her own trauma. So how do you get through your childhood? I'm just resilient. Yeah. Like I know if my whole world falls out from underneath me, I'm probably still going to figure it out. So from eight to let's say 18, that 10-year gap, you know, you're going through school, did you get through high school? I have my bachelor's. Okay. So yeah, yeah. So that would be a yes. What were those years like for you? They were hard. I was definitely a loner.

[00:11:11] Did the thoughts of ending your life continue? They did. I tried to strangle myself with one of those Avon necklaces that kids get. But I just remember my mom just saying, oh, you have to pay for it because it was your sister's necklace. She wasn't concerned about the fact that I just tried to strangle myself. It's astounding what we remember. Yeah. And what people say. As you're growing up, you're struggling. You said you're a loner. You got your bachelor's. That means you obviously finished high school. Do you have more attempts in those years?

[00:11:39] I attempted when I was 13 or 14, which was just enough for the pediatrician to tell my mom to take me to the ER and get my stomach bumped. Because you had overdosed? Yes. Well, your mom knew then. There was no secrets at that point. It was right in front of her. But it's still really just like they didn't throw me in a hostel or anything. It was just chew up your nose, charcoal. My youth pastor was cracking jokes at the time about not feeling any more pain.

[00:12:09] That's hysterical. He's a funny pastor. It just. And then I learned from my grandmother that her mother had succeeded at killing herself during that period. Honestly, I overdosed because I forgot my homework. My mom refused to drive me to school to get it. And there was no way I could walk. It was like five miles from my house. Nor did my mom tell me that eighth grade doesn't really matter for anything. Right. Well, they play this little trick on us about like these things.

[00:12:37] And also like things are going to go in your permanent record. Remember that shit? Yes. What the fuck is a permanent record? Just okay. Sure. Now there's actually more permanent records just because everything's online. And like, you know, it's hard to scrub that shit. But it does not sound like you had the most supportive environment. My mom was severely abused. And then she married an abuser and she was being abused in her marriage. And he was abusing you. And he was abusing me and my sister and physically abusing my brother.

[00:13:05] Was your sister or did your sister or brother also struggle with suicidal thoughts or actions? To my knowledge, my brother really didn't. He was a bully for a while. Because once he turned 18, he kind of like high school 18, he kind of outgrew that crap. Yeah. Became a decent human being. My sister has made multiple suicide attempts. Okay. Do you talk to them? I still talk to my brother. And my sister and I are estranged due to some issues. Does your brother know what kind of condition you're in right now?

[00:13:35] No. What did you get your bachelor's in? Psychology. I love it. And I was actually three classes shy of having a bachelor's, a second bachelor's in human biology. But I got into a master's program that I dropped down of. I was failing two of three classes. So I withdrew instead of getting the zeros. And I don't really necessarily like regret that decision. Like I'm glad I pursued my education until I was ready to stop. There was a goal with those two degrees. I wanted to become a genetic counselor.

[00:14:05] But that didn't happen. Did you end up working in the field though? I did a lot of just random like child care, McDonald's, temp agent. I worked one time. My last job before disability was a mental health case manager. Which makes me not being able to figure out care particularly frustrating. Right. You're right. You know it from the inside. Why are you on disability? Mental health. Oh, that's hard to get, isn't it? I was approved within six months of losing my job, of resigning from my job. I resigned. Glad you got that. I mean, damn.

[00:14:33] I also like had taken a month off of work and I'd been working there less than seven months. I had to take a month off of work, three or four psych hospitals, partial program. My outpatient psychiatrist said I was disabled before I quit the job. Now, the stupid part is if the CMH in that county had just given me mental health treatment, I probably could have maintained employment and saved the U.S. tax there's money. You said you had about 30 attempts.

[00:15:03] You remember about 10. You shared three. In the years between, let's say, college and where we are today, is it every once in a while Indigo tries or are there like clusters? That's not the right word, but you know what I mean? Like moments where there's a few attempts in a short period of time and then you're okay for a period of time? I have a lot more support in the last 12 years. I became Catholic 12 years ago. Well, most people run away from that. You ran to it.

[00:15:32] I wasn't intending to become Catholic. That's a memoir title right there in the go. I wasn't intending to become Catholic. You don't have to sign off on that. But if that's not a memoir title, someone please, someone out there, please claim it. I went to a Christian college and missed a class assignment. One of the professors there, like class assignment, I had to go to a church that wasn't my denomination. So my mom suggested the church that I currently go to because she went there when she was in college.

[00:16:01] She wasn't Catholic either. And one of my professors freshman year suggested me going to the Easter vigil, which is the mass on Saturday night. Yeah, nobody warned me this was a three-hour service. It's now my favorite mass. At the time, I felt rejected by the Protestant churches. I was literally told you're not the type of person we want to go on a mission trip. After I'd already tried to figure out if I could raise the funds to be able to go on the mission trip, because mind you, I'm poverty level on disability.

[00:16:28] So that whole experience led me to just not want to go to any Protestant churches. And I was walking by the local diocese, and I just went in there. I was like, what's the difference between Protestants and Catholics? The lady offered to take me out to lunch, but I have OCD and anxiety, so I didn't take her up. And then I emailed the secretary of the parish I go and just kind of asked that question. He hooked me up with, it was called Rite of Christian Initiation for Adults Director, who was very persistent.

[00:16:58] And the whole year, everybody becomes Catholic on the Easter vigil. I didn't become Catholic until Pentecost Sunday that year. I was like, no, I'm just learning. I'm not ready. I'm not going. And I don't regret it, because my friend in March of that year, or February of that year, I had two back-to-back. It's a year-long process to become Catholic. Two back-to-back hospitalizations. She's like, hey, where were you? Because I missed the class.

[00:17:24] And I told her, and she's like, call me if you ever feel suicidal again. He has kept her word for the last 12 years. Oh, good for her. It takes a year to become a Catholic? I thought it took just like, yeah, I'm Catholic. No. To become Catholic, as a kid, you're not really officially confirmed Catholic until eighth grade. For adults, you could start in September and be Catholic by Easter. So the shortest period is nine months. Nine months to 18 months.

[00:17:53] No, nine months has nothing to do with that. That's also how long it takes to have a child. That's just a coincidence. True. True. I wasn't intending to become a Catholic. It's one of my favorite memoir titles ever. You're Catholic in the last 12 years. So are you in your 30s? Because you would have been said it was right after college. I'm 46. Okay. So do the math because you said it was right after college. Were you in college like later in life? No, I didn't become Catholic until I was 34. I graduated from college in 22. 22 years old. Okay.

[00:18:21] College was connected because I like first tried out this parish when I was in college. Sorry. I see. Okay. No, no, no. I mean, we're hopping around a little bit, but I got a good sense of things. And so now, like when I'm suicidal, I can actually call my priest at five in the morning suicidal and they will talk with me. Wow. I don't think every Catholic priest does that. That's another thing I learned in end of January that our current pastor, the two priests under him, they would rotate out every two to three years.

[00:18:48] But our senior pastor is being moved to a different parish and I'm attached. And this is the third priest in the last five years that has left that I actually became attached to. Like, I'm not actually attached to the two associates right now. How do you feel attached? Emotionally attached? Like, I call him dad. I jokingly call him dad and get him Father's Day cards. My fucked up brain immediately thinks if they're getting moved, they molested a child. No. Please just move around. Yeah. Right.

[00:19:18] He was one of the bishops that I've heard that really pressed the United States Bishop Conference to deal with the child sexual abuse scandal and like get rules in place. Like our diocese has a social worker. You have a complaint about abuse, call the social worker. All right. Well, it's a lot of pressure on the social worker. I hope they're good. So let me go back. So the majority of your attempts were in your 20s and 30s? No. I have attempted as a Catholic multiple times.

[00:19:45] So it's something that you're thinking about, ideating, and sometimes trying throughout your life. Yeah. Was there ever an extended period of time where you didn't try? I think since disability, there's probably been only about a year. How long have you been on disability? Since 2008. Okay. So it's been a while. When was the last one, the most recent one? I think my last attempt was 2023. Okay. So it's like three years. I've had hospitalizations since then, but that was like my last.

[00:20:15] No, I don't think that's accurate. Okay. My last attempt might have been 2025. Last year. Okay. And it sounds like you've had multiple hospital stays. Yeah, I have. Its average is typically two to three per year. So you probably have a lot to say about the system and how hospitals treat people. It sucks. And the mental health treatment, like even the good hospitals, like you can literally go to the hospital and not receive any kind of treatment. Like it's just like a holding cell.

[00:20:45] It's a card. No, but there's like no group therapy, no nothing. Your choice between standing in the hallway or standing in your bedroom. And you're paying for that or somebody is. Oh, I'm a government assistant. So the American taxpayers. I think my next like attempt I remember was I overdosed in college at the Christian college. Probably my most severe overdosed was the college I was going to to get my bachelor's degree, which was Michigan State University. But they handled it so much better than the Christian college.

[00:21:14] The Christian college is like cover your ass. Maybe it was the difference between I was living in the dorms and I was living in an apartment. But MSU was just like my friend brought the letter from the social worker and they're like, oh yeah, when she's like out in the hospital, like just tell her to call us. We'll figure it out. And like my professor like offered to make up my final. The first day of class I missed was the final. And that one I overdosed. I ended up in the ICU for a few days. Yeah, I'm wondering of all your attempts.

[00:21:42] I know we're getting a little grisly here, but so share only what you want. Like what's the one where you came closest to dying? I don't know if I ever truly came close to dying. I remember the ICU one had one that I overdosed in Benadryl that I blacked out and woke up hallucinating. And I was like, oh no, you were talking in like a blackout state. You're asking the doctor about his five kids. And I'm like, okay. 2025, we think was your most recent one. Was that also an overdose? Yeah, that was my most fun one.

[00:22:12] That was your most fun one. I don't get that a lot. What was fun about it? I thought it was creative because I was systemically trying to not have stuff in my house that I can overdose on. I overdosed on nutmeg. Never got that before. You literally said when we first started talking, sometimes you hear methods and you cringe a little bit. Sorry. No, it's just ironic, if anything. That said, I researched the nutmeg thing. I think only three people have actually died from it.

[00:22:39] It usually makes it so you're miserable. And people don't tend to try nutmeg afterwards. So if you're doing this method, the poison control record's absolutely, utterly freaking miserable. Right. It's not a good choice. No. And we've already established, you've said this, you're not good at ending your life. I'm not, clearly. You've made it 46 years. You're still here. Articulate, intelligent, but facing homelessness. The homeless thing is me just wanting to disappear.

[00:23:07] I'm in Section 8, but it's based on disability. So I have no idea what would happen if I was no longer considered disabled. But income-based, theoretically, it would just fluctuate to income. But also the reason I say I'm not facing immediately is because I've had my review in the last couple of years. And I think I'm on the five to seven-year disability cycle. But you specifically said Tuesday. That's an interesting day. Why Tuesday?

[00:23:35] Tuesday because that is when I can take Amtrak from my city to Chicago for $30. Ah, is it cheaper? It's cheaper because I guess I just, I don't know. It's like a Tuesday special. Who knows? What's the likelihood that that's going to happen? I don't know. I don't know until I actually act on the thoughts. Right. So like right now you have a home and like there's stuff in it. Would you be like just walking out and leaving your shit there? Yep.

[00:24:04] Like you're just, you're just bouncing. I did pay for two months rent, but yeah. And you would have access to not a lot of money. I was planning on bringing about $250 with me. Not bringing a phone, not bringing any way to get back to Michigan. So that's a kind of suicide. But yeah, that's what everybody's telling me. I don't know what it is. I mean, I don't know if there's a word for it, but. I'm kind of like, but I'm not dead right away. Right. Right.

[00:24:31] But you're putting yourself in a very, very dangerous position at a minimum. Because I'm not really planning on eating and drinking. So I assume I would actually die of dehydration. Do you think that you would be able to not eat and not drink? Because biologically we want to eat and drink, right? Like there's a big urge. I've gone 10 days without eating. I've gone five days without drinking anything. Were you like protesting something or that? Just why? I was trying to end my life. By starvation? Yeah.

[00:24:59] That's a hard one and a painful one. It's not really. Okay. You're creative. I mean, you said it yourself earlier. Right. You've tried 30 times. It sounds like at least in 10 different ways. Yes. You've been to doctors, therapists, counselors over the years. You've been hospitalized. What are the diagnoses you receive that you think are correct? Bipolar. But I've also diagnosed major depression. I think I'm kind of like a bipolar mixed, which means you do manic and depressed at the same time.

[00:25:28] Generalized anxiety disorder, post-traumatic stress, and obsessive compulsive disorder. That's a lot of things to navigate. And they all play off of each other. Right. Do you take meds to help? I do. I've missed a few days this week. My mental health is getting in the way of even my physical health care, which just kind of sucks. Do you know when you first reached out to me? January? Oh, was it really? Yeah. You didn't reach out in part because of all the craziness that's going on now?

[00:25:59] No. Okay. Just coincidence. I kind of like wrote you and said, thank you for the podcast. Okay. Thank you for thanking me. You're welcome. Yeah. And then I asked you if any of your guests had ideas of how to figure this out. Maybe you have an idea that I haven't tried. Yeah. I wish I had the answer to that. I'd be a fucking millionaire. Yeah. I think the answer would change per person. Yeah. Then I'd be like a mind reader, you know? Yeah.

[00:26:25] I think the whole stay in the life for other people thing, which is, I kind of asked chat GPT why suicide was a public health issue because it's not contagious. It's not infectious. What did chat GPT say? And did it also flash 980? It was costly to taxpayers and it hurts other people. And I'm like, I mean, that is the common answer, but I'm like, really? So if I had cancer, I'd be allowed to end my life in certain states.

[00:26:55] Like, how is this not equivalent to the same level of suffering as cancer? That's a good question. What else did chat GPT say? Because I'm fascinated by how AI handles all this stuff. Uh, generally speaking, when I'm talking to chat GPT about mental health crisis, it's telling me to call 988 every other sentence. Right, right. That's probably, that's an automatic, but does it ever, as I've actually found general

[00:27:18] bots like chat GPT, Claude, Perplexity, Google Gemini, they're actually pretty decent at having what sounds like empathetic conversations. They are. Isn't that fascinating? Like they're better than most people. Yes. They're better than most professionals. Yeah. But, but while they're flashing the thing, cause sometimes I've been on there, um, and it'll say, I just, there's no way I can turn that off. Like I'm designed that way.

[00:27:46] So like, you're going to keep seeing that, but I still want to keep talking to you. It's kind of a fascinating dynamic. And then I'm like, but I'm just so curious how you learn to be what sounds like a good listener. And the questions you're asking and you're checking in, like, and I don't know the answer to that. I'm not a AI programmer, just like, wow. I think it's because it's an algorithm. So it's like taking the best of every suicide prevention talk ever existing. I don't know if it works that way.

[00:28:15] I actually have had conversations with somebody who's been researching suicide and language learning that way predates like consumer AI, like the, so like for 15 years, she told me something and I just don't remember. I just, it was over my head to understand, but there is a reason there's something that makes sense as to how they're able to do it. But at the end of the day, they're not a human. And at the end of the day, the conversation is going to end. Right. And then it's like, where do we go now?

[00:28:42] Well, one, chat GPT keeps asking questions. So the conversation could go as long as it wants. That's how they're designed usually. Our church phone system AI person tries to wrap all the conversation up. I don't talk to him anymore. My conversation with our AI assistants for like the phone system triggered a welfare check and that was not fun to wake up to. Wow. Wow. Okay. So, so more, more examples of how we silence people.

[00:29:09] And I could give 25 to 50 of those easily without thinking of all the ways we silence people essentially. But I actually, if you don't actually pay for chat GPT and you're on the free version, the conversation does end. And they say, you got it. It does when I close the screen, but then that's. You can only do it for so long and they're like, all right, you've used up all your free limit. Come back in four hours. No, I've never come across that. Like I, I don't have the app or anything. I just like type chat GPT into my web browser.

[00:29:36] It doesn't flag my conversations anymore, but it also just says, wow, your nervous system sounds like it's overwhelmed. I'm like, I don't know how to fix that. So. Do you think though that there are, um, at this point, the technology allows like the police, certain authorities to know that you're talking to chat GPT and saying these things? I have location turned off usually on my phone. So I ping off like Canada and like two or three cities, usually two or three hours from where I'm actually located. Wow. All right.

[00:30:06] Send them on a, send them up north. They've never showed up at my door if they can do it. Right. I just wonder about that one day, you know? Theoretically, I think they do. I mean, even with my running away plan, like, yeah, no phone, no anything. But if I'm using my real driver's license and my real identity to get to Chicago, like theoretically, they can at least track me to that city. Now, do I necessarily think they would? Probably not because I'm not a criminal, but could they? Yeah. And there's cameras everywhere.

[00:30:37] Does anyone know we're talking? I mentioned it to my priest and my friend. Did they say, what did they say, if anything? Well, I kind of asked them like, do you think it's ethical to be on a suicide podcast? Uh-huh. And they were fine with it. It was just kind of like, don't talk methods. So we broke those rules. Why do you think that they said that? Because they're good human beings. Why does talking about a method make you not a good human being? It gives people ideas. Does it, though?

[00:31:04] Like, is there any evidence or research that actually supports that, that you've come across? I've never actually researched that question. It gives me ideas. I'm not a good person. But I try to not suck at it. I get that. But I do want to know if you want to be alive. So I'm going to ask you the pink and purple pill question right now. So you know what it is. But I'll just say for the sake of the audience, the pink and purple pill is simply a pill I give indigo magically.

[00:31:33] And if she takes it, she goes to sleep. She doesn't wake up. There's no pain. And no one knows it's a suicide. So you don't have to deal with all that. What would you do with that pill today? I would probably take it as long as it didn't condemn my soul to hell. So that's a good question. As a Catholic, what's happening if you kill yourself? I guess you don't know. So that's a risk. The official teaching of the, it's a grave sin. Like, it's a grave matter because it's a murder of self.

[00:31:58] The official teachings of the Catechism of the Catholic Church is because it's likely due to mental illness, in order to be a mortal sin, which would contend your soul to hell, versus a venial sin would not, you have to freely consent to it. You have to know it's a grave matter. And you have to know it's a sin. But because there's a mental health component, they're not sure if you're actually freely consenting to it. So the question, so then the answer is, we don't know what's going to happen to you. They generally teach you mercy on the person's soul.

[00:32:26] Now, my priest, I asked him, Ash, Wednesday when he got reassigned to our parish, he said, do you really, because I think my question was, would a merciful God really send me to hell over this? That's a good question, yeah. And he's like, do you really want to be dead and find out you're wrong? Don't test God's mercy. That's an interesting angle he took. Don't test God's mercy. Meaning, implying there's a point in which God would not have mercy.

[00:32:56] I don't think that's it. It's just once you're dead, you can't confess your sins. Like, the outcome of your life choices are permanent at that point, as far as heaven, hell, purgatory go. So you don't know what would happen. Is that not knowing, is that a sort of protective factor? It means if I'm going to act in the suicidal thoughts, which frustrates the heck out on my priest and my friend, good Catholic deacon's wife, because I'm like, she's like, you're condemning yourself to hell. I'm like, I know that.

[00:33:25] But doesn't that just show them how hard things are for you if you're willing to contend yourself to hell for eternity? They just get frustrated. Why? Do you have any idea? Did they tell you? I think it's because I'm resigned to the outcome. It's a pretty common argument. I get frustrated because I'm like, I'm just agreeing with you, essentially. But they can't. I mean, the deacon's wife, she's the friend who's been there for 12 years. We talk 20 hours a week.

[00:33:55] I think she just generally cares. Yeah, no, no. And that's what makes it so interesting to me. It's not that someone doesn't care. It's that she does care. I'm just curious about conversation and what they look like and sound like, and especially around this topic. So you are willing to potentially risk going to hell for eternity. Do you have an idea of what hell actually is and what it feels like or looks like? I mean, I've listened to the near-death experience kind of stuff, which sound creepy and horrifying.

[00:34:22] Going off of scripture, I believe I'm going to just be like in a fire for eternity and being burned alive. My soul being burned. When you say it like that, that really puts into perspective the choice that you might make if you choose to end your life. It just simply tells me that's how bad you want out. If I could get better, I'd want to be alive, but I don't know how to do that. And you've been trying for a long time. Yeah. I mean, I've had ECT. I've tried most of the meds on the market.

[00:34:51] I hopped on an airplane to go to a treatment program in Louisiana and then another one in Texas. Yeah. If you have PTSD and you're hearing this podcast, don't go to a trauma program because having a bunch of people with PTSD and easily triggered in one room is a pressure cooker. All right. That's not Sean giving advice. That's just what Indigo feels. I don't think the professionals really know quite what to do with me. Right.

[00:35:15] I will say the second overdose in college, the one that ended up in the ICU, I'm glad I was alive because my niece was born two years later. My beloved niece was born two years later and I'm so glad I was alive for that. Yeah. But what was your answer to my question? You said you'd take it, but then you said you weren't sure because of the health issue. I said I would take it as long as I didn't condemn my soul to hell. But you don't have that control. We don't, that's not part of the pink and purple pill question unless we want to make an exception for you today and we can make that.

[00:35:44] Still take it. Yeah. I mean, you have made that exception though in previous suicide podcasts though. You've listened. What kind of exceptions have I made? Someone that particularly stands out. You made that exception. Okay. That's fair. I mean, I'm still me. I could see myself doing that because that's a unique one, right? Because it's, we don't know. It's for eternity. We don't know how bad it is. It's probably really bad. I'm 100% passive that heaven and hell are real.

[00:36:14] Is there a chance that you're getting into heaven? Hopefully. But you have to stay alive to do that and die a natural death? Yeah. You're 46? Probably 35 more years minimum. What does that feel like to know that you're going to stay alive for 30 more years? Torture. Yeah. That's a really, really tough spot to be in, obviously. I guess I just, I mean, I've tried to get better and it just, it just feels like torture. And I did a partial hospitalization program in April right after Easter and I came down sick, like 101 fever sick.

[00:36:43] So even though I thought it was helping, it just like, I couldn't complete it because you can't do partial when you're sick. Physically sick. So just kind of, but even psych hospitals, like you don't actually want to go to a psych hospital when you're physically ill because we'll just throw you in a room. Yeah. It's awful. Do you wish though that like, you know, some people hope to die, but they're not going to end their lives, but they just hope they're in a car accident or they hope they get really sick and just die. Like, is that something that enters your mind?

[00:37:11] I wish it would be that easy. I know that when I had suspected cancer, it didn't turn out to be cancer. Renal cell carcinoma was the suspicion. I almost didn't have the surgery. It wasn't really suicide, just like my anxiety and fear of anesthesia and my severe OCD. I mean, I called everyone from the housekeeping at the hospital down the line to try to like make it less triggery.

[00:37:37] And my priest, a different priest, he actually showed up at like five in the morning to give me last rites and keep me calm along with the friend that I, the deacon's wife. Are those the only two people you can really talk to about this stuff? My mom's not good at it. I can talk. I have a few people I can talk to. Some of my friends like are really actually good at listening and I don't normally feel more stressed out after the conversation, but they have four kids and three of them are like elementary.

[00:38:07] One's going to be five this year. So I just don't want to expose them to it. Right. Like you could talk to them, but you're not probably going to do it. Yeah. I kind of want to just like be around them. Like I talked to him like after the kids are in bed, but like try to be just like happy go lucky Aunt Indigo. Happy go lucky Aunt Indigo. Not as good as the other memoir title, but it ain't bad. And I'm like that for like my nieces and my nieces and nephews. Yeah, that's cool.

[00:38:34] And I know like when I was leaving like my niece, my beloved niece, I have another niece and two nephews and some step nephews. She probably like the one person like I wouldn't want to not be able to contact me like because I told her like she could call me for whatever. Like I love you unconditionally. I'm here for whatever. You can tell me anything. But I don't think it's fair to tell a 19 year old college student like here, here's my phone number. Don't give it to grandma. Don't give it to the FBI.

[00:39:04] Don't give it to the police. Don't give it to anyone. You could have the number, but don't give it to anyone. Like I don't think that's fair to her. That's a tough spot. Yeah. When we when we got on our when we hopped on here about an hour ago, I think you said you are actively suicidal. Is that right? Mm hmm. Is that plan? Is the plan the homelessness in Chicago? That's the plan. That's kind of the plan I'm leaning towards. I mean, it's Saturday, three days away.

[00:39:27] I also last night thought about going and buying one specific drug that can cause organ failure and getting like 150 grams of it. Getting enough to kill you. But you didn't buy it. I just haven't left my house since like my mood crashed out again. Oh, when was that? Tuesday and Wednesday. Tuesday. I really wanted to receive Jesus in the Eucharist.

[00:39:51] And I felt like buying five or six bottles probably was enough of like a suicide ish gesture to be a mortal sin. Probably wrong on that. And that was enough to stop me. But this is going to be the thing that's going to keep stopping you, right? Because this is the big thing. For me to act on my suicidal thoughts, there's hurdles that I have to overcome. Yeah. Mentally overcome. Well, you were able to do it last year. Once, I think, right? Once. And then in 2023.

[00:40:20] A lot of times when I'm suicidal, if it gets really bad, my priest will just like force me to be hospitalized. Or my friend will drag me to a psych ward and I'll just do a direct admit. That doesn't really give you the space to talk about too much as far as I'm concerned. No, because I can call them from the side of a highway. And that's not necessarily going to prompt like needing to get medical care. The three priests I was attached to, I mean, one of them, like he just talked to me for an hour and he just distracted me.

[00:40:49] And it helped me just calm down enough to not act on the thoughts immediately. Yeah. I mean, that's one of the reasons people call a crisis line, right? Is just to deflect the thoughts or calm down a bit. But 988, like when you call 988 or you go to like crisis services, you can't just talk. Like usually the crisis lines are like, they're evaluating do we need to send the police after you kind of thing. That's sort of where it starts. Yeah. With most of them, yes. I think it depends on who you get. But right.

[00:41:18] It's, you know, early on in that conversation, they got to ask those imminent risk questions, but they have to. And that's where the conversation starts. So where do you think it's going to go? And my priest, like, I don't feel like that pressure. Like lately he's been reminding me he's a mandated reporter, but I don't feel that same pressure. They kind of like go with it more. One of the overdoses, I actually called him afterwards. God bless him. He's in the U.S. Navy as a chaplain now.

[00:41:45] Like he let me call him like five or six times from midnight to 3 a.m. Purely to just help keep me calm and calm enough to like go and do the right thing and go get medical care. They're good guys. They're good men. Yeah. It sounds like it. Other than talking with them, does anything help? You feel at least not worse? A little better? A little less shitty? A little less alone? Talking to them usually helps. Sometimes it backfires. Our pastor isn't necessarily, he's very jokey and I'm very serious.

[00:42:15] So sometimes it, like our personalities clash. I can usually visit my friends, the ones with the four kids, and that usually cheers me up. Indigo, indigo, indigo, like pulling you every which way. It's almost like you don't have time to think about other stuff. Yeah, but they're just so excited. Like we redid our bedroom. They're just excited. I don't know if you have a typical day, but I'm wondering what your typical day is like. I'm a night owl, so I stay up half the night. It just depends.

[00:42:45] I don't really have a typical day. If I'm home and I don't have anything to do, like I tend to stay home. I don't tend to leave. I listen to podcasts. I like Suicide Noted, but I tend to listen to it more in crisis. Or if I see something on Facebook and see like a blurb that I'm curious about. From our social media, thank you, Ambient, who does that for me. Past guest. Yes. It actually is impacting at least one human. Okay, good. Myths and misconceptions. You've heard me ask people about that.

[00:43:14] What are some of yours? What are a couple big ones that you want to dispel or call bullshit on? I don't know if it's a myth, but I think psych hospitals need to treat patients with dignity. So the myth would be that they do treat patients with some respect to dignity. I don't know how to fix it besides maybe like airport, like security x-rays. But like, I don't think strip searching someone who's been traumatized is the best way to start treatment. But I understand on one level, like it's a safety risk.

[00:43:42] And just because I'm honest doesn't mean somebody else wouldn't be. But I've been in situations where I have to strip in front of men. Like, and when I objected, it was like, well, if we find you a female, which should just be common, then you have to agree to like cooperate and nothing. And that hospital was a Detroit one. It was scary. Like, they wouldn't even give me like five minutes in my room to like compose myself when I was actively crying.

[00:44:10] So just treat humans with dignity. Myths about mental health issues. Like, I think people who are suicides should have a right to end their life if they so choose. Even if they're going to hell. Like, I think you have a right to choose your own dang adventure. As long as you're not harming other people. You are. But according to ChatGPT, it's a public health crisis because if you end your life, you are harming other people. You're not physically harming them, though. That's right. I agree. Emotionally, maybe.

[00:44:40] We do all kinds of things that emotionally harm other people all the time. Exactly. Yeah, I mean, some do, some don't. Would you go so far as to say we have agency and if you want to die, you should get help doing it? So it's not painful. So you don't have to choose some way that might not work or might put you in the hospital forever or blah, blah, blah. I'm not sure if I'm okay with the government helping someone kill themselves. Why does it have to be the government? How many people do you know, do you have in your life that would hold your hand if you chose to die? None.

[00:45:08] That's probably a pretty common number for people. I guess on one level I get it. But on one level it would be nice that you could just actively try to end your life and they would hold your hand. I mean, I'll have people who will sit with me in the emergency room until the ER people kick them out. But to actually just hold your hand and let nature take its course. None. But I'm also asking people who are Catholic to do that. You weren't intending on being Catholic. We know that. Funny how life works. I like it. I love confession.

[00:45:38] I never felt forgiven as a Protestant. I like going into confession, spilling your guts, getting a little bit of counseling, and then hearing that your sins are absolved. Yeah. Who doesn't want that? Do you think there are aspects of this conversation that are sort of confessional in nature? No. My priest and my friend know most of this. So there's nothing sinful about what you're doing with me here? Nope. Is there anything about you, whether this is the type of thing you'd say in a confessional or not,

[00:46:07] that you haven't shared that you think listeners would want to know or benefit from? I think even now, a few years from now, there probably is going to be something that I'm glad I'm alive for. Because if my overdose attempt in December 2004, during finals week, I did it because I had just realized that I probably had been raped. And my close friend at the time was friends with the guy. And she kind of was like, I can't talk about this anymore.

[00:46:35] Weirdly, I was comfortable talking to my anatomy instructor, but another friend, like acquaintance, she's like, oh, no, that's not appropriate. Like, me going from this small private Christian college where professors prayed for you didn't understand why that wouldn't translate to Michigan State. And so, like, in that moment, I felt utterly alone and I overdosed. And I remember, like, it sounded like I could have possibly had to deal with hemodialysis to try to—

[00:47:04] I knew once the substance got into my bloodstream, it was hard for them to actually remove. But if I had died that day, I wouldn't have met my niece. So if you're suicidal and you hang on young enough, or if you even think about it, there's probably something you're glad you were alive for. Right, right, right. So in that case, it was your niece. And shit good will come. Just don't know if I care. And I think talking with someone who's more listening and less frustrated is helpful.

[00:47:34] I'm definitely not frustrated. I'll tell you that. I mean, I'm frustrated about a lot of other things in my life, but not those. So when emotions, like, rise, and they're still kind of risen right now, I didn't want to cancel on you. Thank you. I wanted to hold the commitment. I mean, I think you would understand. Well, hey, I mean, I'm glad we were just able to talk because I think, one, I've enjoyed the conversation.

[00:47:58] And two, I know, and I know this actually because people tell me, message me, email me somewhat frequently that these conversations are helpful. Sometimes they even give specific names. This person's whatever they said resonated or whatever it might be. So I know people will hear what you shared and it will help them in some way, maybe small. Who knows who they are, where they are, what they're doing, what their life is like. Got to have faith, I suppose, in the go. I think you'd agree with that, right?

[00:48:28] Yeah. I was hoping, like, sharing my story might help someone else. Yeah. They really have great advice of how to make things better, but I was like, maybe throwing my story out there will help someone else. Yeah, for sure. I appreciate that. What's the rest of your day like? Since I didn't sleep really well last night, I'm hoping to sleep. Do you want to share anything else? I think we covered the highlights. We got the highlight reel, yeah. It's the best we can do in an hour. It's tough, you know.

[00:48:57] I don't know what to say because I don't know what's going to happen on Tuesday for you, but I just hope that you get some good sleep today. And I appreciate you talking. You know, it's a weird kind of dynamic having these conversations that get into really personal things and then kind of saying goodbye. So I'm going to ask a question that I don't usually ask, but I probably should ask more. Because regardless of what you say, there's nothing I can really do. But how do you feel?

[00:49:22] I think it was helpful to actually talk about, like, the suicidal thoughts this week because I haven't really talked to my priest about them. I've talked to my one friend, but that's it. Partly because if you tell people, they'll try to stop you. I kind of feel a little, like, at least I feel heard. And I think that's a big thing. I think it's an enormous thing. I appreciate it, Indigo. You're welcome. So have a good day as well. I appreciate that. Take care, Indigo. All right. Bye. Bye. As always, thanks so much for listening and all of your support.

[00:49:52] Special thanks to Indigo in Michigan. Thanks, Indigo. If you are a suicide attempt survivor or ideator and you'd like to talk, please reach out. Hello at suicidenoted.com. If you'd like to learn more about this podcast, you can check out suicidenoted.com. There's also some information on Apple, on Spotify, including how you can help us out with a tax deductible donation. However you are involved, I appreciate it. Thanks. And that's all for this week's episode. Stay strong. Do the best you can.

[00:50:21] I'll talk to you soon.