Harvey in the U.K. 🇬🇧

[00:00:00] I don't know, I didn't try, this is the thing. Every time I get that close, the sentiments that I started with spring to my mind. I don't know, it feels almost easier not to. To end your life is a hugely courageous thing that I don't have the balls to do and that I wish I did.

[00:00:40] Hey there, my name is Sean and this is Suicide Noted. On this podcast I talk with suicide attempt survivors and ideators so that we can hear their stories. Every year around the world millions of people try to take their own lives and we almost never talk about it. We certainly don't talk about it enough. And when we do talk about it, when we engage with people in pain, we're not very good at it. And you know I'm being kind when I say that. We're really bad at it.

[00:01:04] So one of my goals with this podcast is to have more conversations and hopefully better conversations with attempt survivors and ideators in large part to help more people in more places hopefully feel a little less shitty and a little less alone. Now if you are an attempt survivor or someone who has thought or does think about ending their own lives, I would love to talk with you. Please reach out hello at suicidenoted.com.

[00:01:28] A couple of ways you can help this podcast and we do need help. Even though it's been over six years and hundreds of episodes and great conversations, this podcast and this guy needs some help. So one thing, pretty simple, rate us on Apple and I would appreciate it if you gave us five stars. Anything lower doesn't help, but only if you mean it. And you can make a financial contribution, tax deductible. The link is everywhere. You'll find it in the show notes, the episode description, the website and elsewhere.

[00:01:55] So either of those. And there's some other stuff too, including some volunteering. So reach out if you have a question about any of that. Finally, we're talking about suicide here on this podcast. My guests and I do not hold back. So please take that into account before you listen or as you listen. You can always hit pause. But I do hope you listen because there's so much to learn. Today I am talking with Martiens Martin. Martiens Martin lives in the UK across that pond.

[00:02:19] And he is, I am not sure what to call it. Near suicide attempt survivor? Suicide attempt-ish survivor? Help me out with the language, especially the language police. I know you're out there. What is the right way to say a near attempt if Harvey himself? Well, we'll get to that. Martiens Martin, you got a great mic, but does nothing if it's muted. How's that? How's that sounding? Fantastic, man. So you're like a young, proper Brit. Yeah, well, I hope so.

[00:02:48] Hosh. Hosh as fuck, right? Let's be real. Oh, no, don't start with that, man. A little bit, though. Come on. I mean... A little bit, maybe. I think I sound posher than I am. Yeah, it's been humbling, I think, for me, the podcast. It might be the wrong sort of way to kind of think about it. Like, as bad as things get for me, I'm from a really privileged life, you know. But I also think that's why it's kind of interesting to a degree as well, that I think I can suffer in the same way, really.

[00:03:17] Oh, you got the little bit. It sounds like of the I'm not as worthy to suffer as other people because their lives sound harder or they had less money or a shittier education or they were repeatedly abused or whatever it may be. So, nonetheless, here we are. Thanks for talking with me and reaching out and meeting you. Yeah, thanks for talking with me, man. Did you send me an email back in the day? Way, way back. Yeah, like years ago. Yeah.

[00:03:44] Well, I was completely blown away by the fact that you came back to that with a little voice note. It's good to talk to you, man. Yeah, no, it's good to talk to you too. And I feel that struggle as well. Like, well, my dream would be to be like a sort of musician or something. It feels like in the modern world, that kind of thing is just dead. Like, having a dream about that.

[00:04:07] Like, the people I follow and the people I have a lot of respect for in that industry spend as much time like marketing their stuff as they do making music. It puts you in a really tough spot because it's like you can have so much belief in what you're doing and that you could do something like with it. But you can have whatever amount of fans that say, like, Harvey, man, your music changed my life. This is the best shit ever. And it doesn't matter. It matters to them.

[00:04:35] And if that's enough for you, but it doesn't make you a career for you. Well, exactly. Yeah, you can. That is the most rewarding thing about it, really. But that's not the thing that people get rewarded for. Correct. It's for the clicks and for dragging people in and manipulating unwitting people into listening to your music.

[00:04:54] Yeah, one of the biggest things about it for me is that I have a job, you know, and I have I am relatively set up in a pretty kind of corporate lifestyle, which I hate. I hate everything about it. I don't keep any. I'm down to zero again at the end of every fucking month. Yeah, like I'm only I'm 25 and like I'm doing reasonably well for myself for someone my age. But even that is like not.

[00:05:22] It's not like doing well for yourself, you know. No, no, it doesn't. Like crypto bros and these people. Well, that's that's the game, too. And it has changed some over the years. There was a time not to get too romantic where you could have it. And it probably was similar in England where you have one parent staying at home to raise the kids because that probably does help the kids. Go figure.

[00:05:42] And once someone working even a blue collar job and you make enough to have your down payment on a home enough to make some to buy decent food to take one or two trips a year and put a little money into your saving. That doesn't exist for most humans now. Yeah, you're at like near zero at the end of every month. And I'm guessing and we'll get it. We'll get into it. That doesn't help your mental health. No. Yeah, it doesn't.

[00:06:06] And it makes the whole drudgery of the job that I do and the sacrifice I feel like I'm making for that just feels so utterly pointless. And then on top of that, I'm not chasing something that I think would be my dream, which is going hell for leather with like you do with your podcast, you know, like just sending it. And because I've got such a, you know, relatively comfortable life, it stops me from making that move.

[00:06:34] And it makes me think I will just be stuck like this forever. Like I won't ever make that move because it was all, it always have too much risk attached in, in the way that the world runs. So if I do that, I could very well end up in a situation 10 times worse than what I'm in now. And, and I'll feel, you know, 10 times worse. Like, yeah. Yeah. You chase the dream for a small percentage. It works that they get all the, that's who you hear about.

[00:07:02] You don't hear about the guy that goes homeless because he chased the dream. Yeah. Yeah. And I bet there's a lot of them or the, or the guy that goes off and tries their dream for a bit and then ends up going back and doing the thing again. But just like almost on, it almost feels like it's nice to have the, the hope of an unfulfilled dream in that respect. Like I can believe my life could be that, but as I get older, um, you know, I look, look around and realize it's not that. And it probably won't be, um, part of, uh, part of England are you in?

[00:07:32] I'm in London. I moved to London. I'm from Essex. So when you, so what, where you grew up was, it's pretty nice. It was reasonably nice. Yeah. But the people there are terrible because like, so my parents were relatively humble people. I would say my granddad was like a big money engineer in, uh, London and made quite a bit of money and was sort of relatively traditional, but also quite liberal.

[00:07:58] And then my dad was, uh, went to do acting at university, basically failed with it. But, you know, no disrespect to my dad. I love him a lot. And, you know, but like he would say that probably and ended up in like a sort of property development job making decent money. But cause, cause his parents had enough money to buy them a house. They got them a house out in Essex. And then my mom works as an acupuncturist. They're very much not parents who were like money is king and not encouraging us to be like that.

[00:08:27] But the place I was living being down the, down the train line from London was all these East end bankers, East end kind of money people, uh, insurance brokers and bankers and their families would live out there and commute into East London for these big money jobs. No, you know, obviously those people have followed their own path in their life and different people have different values of what makes them feel good. But for me, that's not like making money is surviving in the modern day. Like it's nothing more than that.

[00:08:56] And so you moved to one of the most expensive cities in the world. I know. Yeah. Tell me about it. Let's talk soccer or football for a moment. When, when you guys were in the European championships, it wasn't the last one with the one before that. And you wanted to penalty kicks against Italy. It fucking broke. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's not a bad segue to be fair, because I, I nearly died that night. Not from suicide, but from a similar thing to sort of my semi attempt. So I sent in my email, I'm a type one diabetic.

[00:09:25] I'm sick, which means I have to have insulin every time I eat food. And you have to inject yourself with insulin every time you eat carbohydrates, basically. If you drink alcohol, it spikes your blood sugar because it's got a lot of, a lot of sugars in it. I went, went home, got absolutely smashed at the football. On the way home, got a big kebab and chips, injected loads of insulin because I was about to eat a big kebab and chips. Had one mouthful of it and was like, I'm going to be sick if I eat any more of this.

[00:09:52] You then have to take on as much sugar as the amount of insulin you've just injected, you know? So to deal with that, I had to sit in the kitchen until like, well, I don't know, an hour or two later, just drinking monsters. I had two full cans of monster just sitting there after a whole night of drinking and feeling sick. Now, this is 2020. I just want to say something.

[00:10:14] Generally speaking, I don't think doctors like or suggest that you make any major decisions with injecting insulin when you're trashed or drunk. No, they don't. And I don't usually. You're not a doctor. I don't know why, actually, with that in mind, that's probably part of the decision to do it for why I did inject it. Well, I'm always curious about, we'll get into it, but there's a lot of people that talk about actions they take,

[00:10:42] and this may not apply to you, where it's like arguably reckless or stupid. We all do it. But some people, it's like, yeah, and if I die, okay. I don't know. I think generally when I'm doing stuff like that, I'm in a better place probably than the times when I feel suicidal. It's usually when something's going on, if I'm taking lots of drugs, you know, but it is deliberately reckless to a degree.

[00:11:08] I would say it stems from not being satisfied with reality. So I've had kind of substance use issues, not serious, serious substance use, but like I smoked weed every day for like three years, including like a year and a half on my own when I was living in Nottingham, which was just like I didn't want to be, I didn't want to be there. You know, it was like a kind of mental suicide in a way. Like I was not there in the real world.

[00:11:38] I was gone from it and I was sat like a vegetable, completely out of it, experiencing things in a different way, which is just what I wanted. Sean calls it the space between. How many suicide attempts or near attempts do you have? In terms of ones that I think most of your listeners would kind of consider adequate, which, you know, is showing my colors again, I suppose. Maybe, maybe one, I would say. Well, you get to decide, Harvey. You get to decide. No, no, I didn't try. This is the thing.

[00:12:07] Every time I get that close, the sentiments that I started with spring to my mind and it, I don't know, it feels almost easier not to, I think. To end your life is a hugely courageous thing that I don't have the balls to do and that I wish I did. Isn't that interesting? You know, there'd be people and not a small number that would say that ending your life is a cowardice move. Yeah, and they're idiots. No disrespect. I mean, they were, no, they're not idiots now. I don't think they've necessarily...

[00:12:36] This is what you... The pain that makes people feel they need to end their lives. I would agree with you 100%. And I love, I love that you, you say something and then you go back into the, like, the nice British kid thing. So I hate myself for it, really. I'm, uh, I'm a people pleaser. Five years of training, bro. My parents got divorced actually to her when I was 12. Then you get the diabetes thing, which has to totally suck as a 12 or 13 year old. And even then I didn't really get kind of how heavy it was.

[00:13:05] When you're that young, you don't really understand how much something like that will change your life. I don't know when it started, but that gets heavy, you know. After a while of dealing with it and it kind of becoming your norm and then you realize, hang on, like, this isn't what everyone has to deal with. That everyone's not walking around, you know, waking up in the morning thinking, oh, if I make a big fuck up today, I could die. I don't know. It's nice in a way to have that.

[00:13:33] I suppose it makes me feel alive probably. But it makes my life for kind of living stress, you know. And it makes me really anxious probably about things. But you have a method. Exactly. Yeah. And that's what I would say are the other semi-attempts. Like, I've lost count of how many times I've sat on my bed before, like, going to sleep with the, you know, like, the pen and the needle and having it dialed up to the max.

[00:14:00] And just thinking, like, I can just bang this in, go to sleep, and that's it. If you get hypoglycemia, which is low blood sugar, like, on the Euros night was a pretty extreme case of that. If you get hypoglycemia, you go into a coma. And then if no one comes to help you, you die, basically. This is interesting. You have, and there's others out there like this because you're not the only type 1 diet. You have a method to end your life with you at all times.

[00:14:29] That actually is the thing that keeps me alive as well. That's so twisted. Yeah, it's, psychologically, it's a fucking mess. So what's the opposite of that? Is that you eat shit and then you don't take it. Wouldn't that kill you? Yeah, that would kill you, but very slowly. And that's the thing that I've probably also done, well, more, I would say. That's part of the whole weed smoking, getting out of my consciousness.

[00:14:56] Because when I'm in that consciousness and when I'm all aware and alert, I won't necessarily let that happen. Or if I'm letting that happen, I will be beating myself up about the fact that I'm doing that to myself and how stupid that is. When you do that, it's essentially like having, the doctors describe it as like having Coca-Cola in your bloodstream. And it's like it's all your blood vessels get sort of stuck and pulled by the blood as it passes through them.

[00:15:24] And things like your eyes and your kidneys that have like really small blood vessels in them get destroyed over time if you do that for too long. And I've gone through long periods where I've done that to myself, essentially. Because I don't want to get old, I don't think. I've seen people who are old. My granddad made it to like his 90s and my grand's like almost 80. And it's shit.

[00:15:52] Like they sit around doing naffle waiting for their family to turn up and do something once a year. Like people have their own lives. And I feel that now. Like I feel a real burden. It's part of probably why I'm such a sort of people pleaser. Like I feel like if you're not offering something into someone's life, then why would they meet up with you again? And why would they keep seeing you? And when you get really old, your ability to do that is hugely limited.

[00:16:20] That is quite a profound thought. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, really. Because you're right. When you get that much older, you're so limited in so many ways that that sort of reciprocity opportunity is diminished so much. Yeah, you can't make it so worth people's while to come and see you and to do stuff with you because it's not as exciting as everyone else they know. It's just outside of just pure pity or let's make sure this person doesn't die.

[00:16:45] Like my grand has spent time sort of, I think she's mentally conscious enough to understand when people are just there because they're pitying her. I don't think that's nice. I wouldn't want that. If that's the only time people are coming to see me just because they feel bad about not seeing me, you know, like. You're not one of those. You're the guy that wants to see grand. Yeah, well, to a degree, yeah. But also, again, you know, I've got my own life. It's hard to get out there. Like, I don't see her probably as much as I'd like to. And I feel really guilty about that.

[00:17:15] I'm guessing she wants her grandson to just be enjoying life in London as much as he can. Yeah, yeah. And I think that's probably the reality of it as well. And like, there's solace to be taken in that. But it doesn't take away from the fact that that sadness is going on. But hopefully, I won't have to deal with that because I've been slowly fucking with myself. When you were growing up, your parents split. You're this kid with diabetes. Do you remember the first time you thought about taking your own life?

[00:17:43] I do, but I don't know if I thought about it much growing up because it was never a thing. Like, it was never something that anyone I knew was on about. And it was never something that my parents... It was very much this kind of blinders upbringing of like, you know, what you would probably think of as quite a traditional sort of English upbringing. Because of where we were and because of like, my grandparents being relatively traditional like... What did your dad tell you? My dad's just not someone who's open to that as a concept.

[00:18:12] Like, he doesn't consider it an option in his head. You know, I'm jealous of people like that. Because maybe they do. But I do believe there are some people out there who just don't think that way. Just don't consider it. They're too driven maybe or I don't know. Sorry, the first time I did sort of think about it was when I was at university. I went and did an engineering degree. Three years in, I went and did a placement year at the same shit company that I'm working for now. Don't say the name of the company. Yeah, I won't.

[00:18:41] I can't imagine any of them are listeners to this podcast. Harvey, you might be surprised. Well, I might be. And I'm sure if there are any, they would approach this the right way if they hear me on. Let us hope. Let us hope. But the people who would cause problems, definitely... Just so everyone out there is clear, the name of the company is... Shit company, that's a descriptor. Yeah, I went on placement then.

[00:19:05] And that was a year after my closest friend and housemate had tried to kill herself while we were living together. And that was sort of the kind of eye opener to it for me. Spending time with someone. Yeah, I don't know. Who saw that as a way out, basically. And it put that in my... Not put that in my head. Like, I don't mean to make it sound like she... Or that experience is responsible for me being like this.

[00:19:30] But it was like an answer to what I had been feeling. Yeah, this is one of the few fair, in quotes, things people say about this kind of work I'm doing is that you might give people an idea. They're usually thinking about method. I'm like, people know about method. Like, that's not the thing. And I say, if it's not on their radar at all, they ain't listening to this podcast.

[00:19:55] Even if that does happen, you know, the good that your podcast does massively outweighs that. And it's not something to be concerned of. Everything has positives and negatives. I mean, agreed, utilitarian point of view. But people would say, oh, but the one person. I'm like, unfortunately, yes. So your roommate tries. She obviously doesn't die. That was really tough. And she was my best friend at university.

[00:20:22] We had each other as like our sort of number ones in our little house and went on placement and lived together when I was on placement. She couldn't carry on on her own. So she came and lived in this bed sit with me and did her job on a year out while I did my placement. Then we went back to uni together. We were in with loads of other friends. And it was then when I went back to uni that I kind of realized that after being on placement and being in work and seeing what that side of the world was like for the first time,

[00:20:51] and then going back to university and seeing like, hang on, like this is bullshit. Like all of it is just a kind of a structure, really. Not to sound too pretentious and like, yeah, like getting a degree is just like an in, get better jobs and more money. And that was why I went to do it. That's why I went and did an engineering degree and gave up on potentially doing music, which I regret now because it was like, well, if you do an engineering degree, you'll get a job.

[00:21:20] And you'll get a job that pays well enough to live a decent life. So I did that. And then when I went back to university, I was like, hang on, all of these assessments are just like proof that you have learned the things that you're supposed to have learned when you were learning that module or whatever. You didn't have to learn anything. You just had to know what it was that would prove you'd learned it. I think people my age and younger are kind of a lot more awake to this kind of way that the world works.

[00:21:47] And I think human beings have sort of crossed a threshold of kind of consciousness. We have so much information available to us now. We can see in the cold light of day, the reality of the world we live in and the reality of what we are. This is getting heavy, brother, because it's, you know, a lot of the information is coming through means that are questionable. And it's like, we don't have to get into a conversation about what reality is. But yes. Yeah. I'm not like a conspiracy theorist or anything.

[00:22:15] And I'm not saying there's like some kind of sinister cabal running the world. I just mean like 30 years ago, you wouldn't see someone die on your fucking phone. And now like you go on, like you go on social media and like, I'm not someone who follows deep, dark rabbit holes on social media. And I've had stuff randomly pop up on my phone. That's like either footage from wars, things like this that are just, they confront us in a new way. The horror of the world. I can't really deal with it, to be honest.

[00:22:42] When it's so much effort for me to survive every day with what with this diabetes and like having to do all my injections and having to make sure, you know, I'm eating the right stuff. To try and in an effort to prolong my life. Yeah. And it's like, I have to go to doctor's appointments where they tell me like, oh, you need to be doing this better. You need to be doing that better. It's all manageable. And like, even when you're trying, it's a load of shit. Like it's not easy to control your body and what you're doing affects that. Yeah.

[00:23:10] It's so much effort for me and for everyone else to carve away through life and through the world. I think, you know, now more than ever, there's kind of no reason to do it. Like you were saying, like we can't even buy a house. You, when you, when you went back to college, there was something else going on, which overlaps, but it was also, you, you had this sense of, and I don't want to put words in your mouth. So you'll tell me if I'm off, but like, I went through these motions. I learned what I had to learn. Even in the moment, I may not recall any of this information.

[00:23:39] I passed the assessment, the test, the evaluation so that I could get a piece of paper so that I could get a job, which would require me to live a certain kind of life. Give me a certain amount of money. Why? Exactly. To survive, I guess. But then, but then why? I mean, you could argue some people, you don't have to ask why you survive. You're surviving because you're alive, period. But other people probably more like us are like, but is that, is that not to get corny, but is it a period? Is it an ellipse?

[00:24:09] Is it a fucking semicolon? Is it, is it a dash? Is it, is there more? Let's, you know, like what, what are we doing? The best answer I've found for it is to try and leave a positive influence on the lives of other human beings, other creatures in general. Something good. You know, try and not make the atmosphere and the world worse for other people. How do you do that? Well, I try to just be nice, but to be honest, I think I'm a bit of an arsehole.

[00:24:38] I think you're as much, you're as much like environment that you spend time in as you are the person you are, I think. Like, I appreciate the fact that you say you try to be nice, but you recognize that you're not always nice. Yeah. No one's always nice, are they? It's not possible. You can't always be nice. I mean, to be honest, I honestly, I can't stand those people. Once in a while, you got to be a little, have a little edge. You got to be a dick once in a while. Come on. Like you're living in a tough world.

[00:25:06] Like you can't just, I mean, but hey, if that works for them, when's, when's this, what you call maybe attempt? I don't even remember specifically when it was. I remember it was when I was at university in that third year. I, I don't know. I must've been, I must've been under a lot of pressure with uni work, something like that. I mean, I was smoking weed a lot at that time as well and kind of looking to dissociate from the real world. Yeah.

[00:25:30] There was one time when I, I used to go on sort of walks just in the night, just walking around just because I didn't have any interest in doing anything. Like I wouldn't want to do anything at all. So I'd be like, well, at least that's sort of semi good for me. Yeah. One night I felt I would sort of play with the idea of going down to this train bridge that was near where I'd go to the shops.

[00:25:52] One night I was, yeah, despairing in a, in a way like I have on many sort of other times, but I guess, you know, more. Yeah. Went down to this bridge and I, uh, I just stood there like looking at the tracks and looking over this bridge for like, like two or three hours. Maybe. Does the train come on the bridge or is the train below? Well, it's like a, it's like a road bridge over the top of some train tracks.

[00:26:18] This is the other thing about why I don't think I've really had any kind of attempts that like, like the injecting thing is, is a pretty solid route and it would be kind of a nice way to go. Like I've hypoed a few times before, you know, you slip into a sleep and then that's it. You've had guests on here, even who I was listening to someone the other day who tried that and it doesn't work and you wake up and you're in the same thing. Yeah. It's not necessarily a solution. You can't go wrong with a train, man. Jump in front of a train. That's it.

[00:26:48] And sorry. I know you say about not giving ideas on this podcast and stuff. I don't think there's any idea anybody could say that people haven't thought about. I mean, it's kind of common sense, isn't it? That as well. Yeah. I don't buy into that. I really don't. And I think a lot of people in the suicide prevention world would be aghast and think I'm a disgusting human being, but it's like, you're not living in the real world. Yeah. You're in a little bit of a make-blow. I appreciate the work you do. I know you mean well.

[00:27:14] If somebody wants to end their life and they're thinking about it, especially now with the internet, they will find ways. And even if they don't have the internet, they walk around their neighborhood and they find fucking train tracks or they see, oh, that's an 80-foot drop off that cliff. People aren't fucking stupid. Let's not treat them stupid. That's the way I've thought. I have to get a train to work every day.

[00:28:01] Uh-huh. Yeah, which I think is, you know, these things kind of get you at your lowest. Yeah, they do. How long have you been working at this particular job? I've been working there since November at this place. I worked at a concrete factory in Nottingham after I graduated, which was really interesting working with all these kinds of blue-collar people, like you said. Trying to talk politics with them was quite interesting. I bet they loved your input. Yeah, well, yeah. But again, it was really nice.

[00:28:31] It was quite eye-opening doing that because it was like you could actually have political conversations and conversations with these people if you approach them in the right way. And I bet more satisfying than the people you work with now. Yeah, it's much more exciting talking to someone who doesn't agree with you. This is the other side of things like that I was going to say earlier about you kind of turn into the stuff you do as you get older and older, right? And like you turn into the environment you live in and the people you hang out with and stuff like that. Tell me about it. To a degree.

[00:28:59] Maybe not everyone, but I think that's pretty, it's a pretty safe bet. And the people I see who have been doing my job in environments like where I work for their whole lives are fucking miserable. They're not happy people. They might have a wife and kids or whatever and like a BMW or something, but they're not happy. And you see them sitting at their desk in the same way that I sit at my desk every day staring through their screen just wishing they could be doing something else like sheep in a pen. Is that a movie scene? Yeah.

[00:29:27] That's a kind of respectable career apparently. That's what I've done all my hard work for, what I've sacrificed my dream for. Fascinating. But why is that the norm? I don't know. I don't think it necessarily is the norm either. Like I just think it's almost like that's like the well-trodden path, I would say. And like to do anything else, you have to take more of a risk in terms of trying to make your own way through things. Whereas the route I've taken is like, you know that's a safe bet.

[00:29:54] So it traps loads of people in who are anxious and who are stressed about the future and might not know what to do. For a large number of people with a particular background, the path of least resistance is that. Yeah. Not that like uni is easy and not that getting up at six in the morning is easy at all. In fact, it isn't. But you mitigate risk.

[00:30:15] You increase the chances that you will have a place to stay, that you will have a car that works, that you will have access to decent food, that you will have health insurance, that you will have a place to go and some structure, which for some people is important, others less so. Whatever the case is. But then you find yourself, you're not even 30 years old. Imagine this, four more years of this shit, Harvey. And you're a young guy. You're looking at someone who's double your age. You're young and you're already thinking this way. So like.

[00:30:44] Yeah, that's exactly it. And everyone who I speak to like this about it is like, oh, but you're so young and you can do, you know, you could start all over from square one. But that's the trap. Like, why would you start from square one again when you're already, you know, making enough money to like this place? It's really nice. I live with my girlfriend who I absolutely love. And like, you know, like I feel sometimes like I have everything.

[00:31:10] You feel like you have everything on paper, but that almost somehow makes it worse because it's like, why am I so? Why do I keep returning to this place when I have everything I could need? But you don't really. You don't really. The whole way that's all set up is so that you could lose it in a heartbeat anyway. This is me getting a little psychobabbly. But if your belief is that you have everything you need and you're talking to me on this podcast, your belief is incorrect. I at least have everything that society tells you you would need.

[00:31:39] Not to sound psychobabbly as well. Sure, but those are two totally different things for some people. Yeah. What's interesting is, and it doesn't really align with what you just said, because here's what I'm thinking. I've talked to 400 people. So it really spans just about every demographic, every place. Oh, I was thinking about it. And I fall into this trap sometimes of making assumptions about people. And I heard you like, so I was living with this girl and we were really close. And at one point you said with loads of other friends.

[00:32:06] I'm like, oh, so he's not the guy who can't make friends. I don't know. I don't think I get people, I will say. And I don't think I find it easy to make friends. I have to be kind of with people in almost like a one-on-one kind of setting to really make any kind of a connection. Because I get the same thing that I've heard you talk about, actually, which was something I love to hear you mention. Which is that fucking everything is small talk. To me, anyway.

[00:32:33] Like when you're in a room of people and when you can tell that person is kind of metering how they are coming across, whatever they're saying is just dishonest. It feels to me like dishonest and like disingenuous and not really any kind of a real reflection of who that person is. And that's usually really boring. Yeah, and really boring. Like I struggle with that a lot. So I had a few housemates who I've collected over the years. But then even then I trick myself into thinking they're not as good friends of mine as they really are.

[00:33:03] Probably. Well, maybe they're not. When people can't make it out for things. And like the loneliness is terrible in that respect. And that's something I've also struggled with a lot. Which is why I love having a girlfriend who, you know, I feel like I'm really connected. Again, this is anecdotal. Like I don't have research. There is research about this. Because suicide is complicated as fuck. Loneliness is the number one killer in my opinion. And it's just an opinion. It's so misunderstood. Or if it's not misunderstood, it's certainly under-discussed. And it feeds on itself. Because when you're lonely, there's often shame.

[00:33:33] And then you don't want to talk about it. And you get lonelier. And then you try to cope with the loneliness. But this goes back to something else that started talking about is you feeling, I think the word was bad, but it could have been another word, that you have all of these things. Whether past or present, you still feel this way. And one of the things that you just mentioned, which can be the game changer for some, is having one person. And it's probably a bonus that it happens to be a romantic partner. All right. So Harvey's got a degree. This is what some people are thinking, right?

[00:34:02] Harvey's got a degree. That's what everyone who meets me thinks, mate. It kind of sucks that he has diabetes. But, I mean, he's got the health insurance or the health care. So he's got the pen. He's got a degree. He's got at least a couple friends. He's got a girlfriend that he seems to really like. He's got a nice enough home. I can't see it, but Sean can. Looks pretty nice. He's a good-looking guy. Like, you know what I mean? Like, what's the problem? And that is kind of one of the things as well. Because I think people have that sort of perception of me, it means I can't talk to anyone, it feels like.

[00:34:31] I don't speak to my parents about it. I don't speak to my girlfriend, really. With my housemate, like, I learned a lot going through that with her. And I learned a lot about what it's like to be with someone like that and how much that, like, and I mean this in the kindest way to all of your listeners who, like, might have feel like they might have put people in these positions.

[00:34:52] But, like, it's hard to be with someone who is in that kind of a way because you feel like you're, it makes you feel like you're kind of contributing to it somehow. That's one of the myths, I would say, that I'd want to dispel. It doesn't have anything to do with the people around you. And, like, they can be rays of light in your life and be the only time that you feel great.

[00:35:17] But so long as you're still going back to somewhere that feels as bad as it does, it's always going to be something that might be in your head, like suicide. And just, yeah, giving it all up. You forget about all that when you're in that dark place and when you're, like, really suffering. You don't, you're not thinking about those people. You're not thinking, oh, you know, maybe in a few weeks I'll go and do something with this person and I'll actually sort of crack a smile and, like, feel a bit better about things. But, like, you're not thinking about that at the time.

[00:35:46] No, I think you bring up some really interesting and things that are not uncommon for people that experience this. Everyone's got their own unique way of experiencing it. That's why every conversation when people are like, don't you get a little bored or tired? I'm like, no. I mean, you see some patterns and you see some things that come up. If you hear the podcast, you'll hear similar stuff. But Harvey is unique, man. And it's interesting to me. Like, so I'm imagining you, people pleaser Harvey.

[00:36:12] What's interesting to me is hearing how you're talking about this, knowing you're a people pleaser, saying what you just said about talking about it or not. And you're living in the same home, I believe. But she's not here for two weeks. But yet you cohabitate. You're intimate in a number of ways, right? Just emotionally, whatever else. That's what makes a girlfriend a girlfriend, a boyfriend a boyfriend. It's not just a friend. And yet she doesn't know much about this. And this isn't a small thing in your life.

[00:36:42] That might be understating it a bit. She knows about it and I've spoken to her about it a bit. Really, one of the reasons I love her is that she's a positive influence on me. She's not someone who struggles with stuff like this, I don't think. At least she's not openly. But also I genuinely feel she's not someone who, you know, I mean you hear about all the ways I moan about the world and the situation that everyone has to put up with. And she doesn't think that way. She sees, she's one of those people you were describing earlier. He's painfully nice.

[00:37:10] Except when she's alone with me and she'll have a right old bitch about people. Yeah, just endlessly joyous in a way that is, I don't know, so much less. She just doesn't concern herself with putting in the effort to find the negatives in things. And I think that was just kind of how I was raised and kind of where I'm from. Love is complicated and I don't know much about it. But on paper, I'm kind of surprised you guys are together. Yeah. Well, and I'm frightened that I jeopardize that for her.

[00:37:37] You know, that's one of the biggest things for me about our relationship and one of the things that kind of frightens me about it is that maybe she will pick up that kind of perception of the world. And I wouldn't want to do that to her really. But, you know, it's worked so far. We've been together five and a half years. Oh, so this was back in uni? Yeah, it was before you. We met at school. We met at school and then were friends for a year at uni and then got together after that. So hold up.

[00:38:05] Let's go back to a place where maybe one or two of my guests out there are like, wait, Sean, you started something and you're not finishing it. You all know out there I usually close these loops. Not always. Not always. But let's go back to the bridge. Yes. Sorry. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You don't say sorry. This is my job, not yours. What I didn't know was that you had a girlfriend at that point. And you said you used to go on a lot of those types of walks. And you said it. You don't know really why, but it just that night was the night. So you're standing there, but you're not standing there for 10 minutes.

[00:38:34] You said it was at least two hours. And what I want to know. Yeah, it was a long time. So it's late at night, right? So there's not like hundreds of cars going by. But how often is the train going by? The train didn't turn up. And that was the maybe the thing that stopped it. This is why I feel it's such an ambiguous kind of situation. Because I was standing there waiting for a train to see what would happen, what I would do. And to see, you know, how I would feel in that moment with those lights coming towards me. And I felt for all the world that I would, you know. But obviously the opportunity never arose.

[00:39:04] So I just stood there crying for hours. I think listening to music maybe. Because I find music's really useful for saying things that people can't really express. Yeah, just kind of sitting in it really is what it felt like. So when a train at night, which has lights on, is heading in your direction. You're an engineering guy. I don't know this. But I'm going to say if you have 20-20 vision, you have at least. Unless it's coming around a bend. I'm really thinking about this.

[00:39:32] If it's coming straight on and it's also making a sound. You got a couple minutes, I'd say. Maybe. I don't know. I was just thinking about it just then as you were sort of describing that. Like, to make the train, I probably would have had to have been more prepared, I suppose. I was on the wrong side of the bridge, for one. So you just run across the other side of the bridge? Maybe get hit by a bus on the way. I'm imagining like a little footpath, but it was not that. No, no. Yeah, it was like a road bridge with pavements on either side.

[00:39:59] What you're saying is the train would have been coming from behind you? I think so. I think so. I think they go both ways on that bit of track, to be fair. Either way, you didn't research this before. You didn't get a schedule of the train and it just didn't come. Yeah. It would have had to be some amazing timing in hindsight. But I didn't realize there weren't trains on that track, you know, at that time. I thought I was going to get to see a few and kind of make up my decision. And, you know, like. I was still like, what if, I mean. Yeah, I don't know.

[00:40:28] It's been a few years. Like, what do you think you do? What, if I'm back there now? Well, I'm going to ask that question too today, but that's more of a pink and purple pill question type of question. Yeah. But back then, what do you think you would have done if the train's coming? Maybe, maybe, maybe gone for it. But I don't know. In that moment, I just wanted to see it. Well, no, like when I think about ending my life, I'm quite rational. And not that it's irrational to end your life.

[00:40:54] But I mean, like, I convince myself out of it with all the many good things in my life. I don't want to be able to do that. It feels like a kind of curse being able to do that because it. To talk yourself out of it. Yeah. Like, I can always find a way to talk myself down in a way. And it's, you know, you might say that's a good thing because you get to live on. But then the next time I'm feeling like I wish I wasn't alive, I'm wishing, you know,

[00:41:23] I didn't have to climb over that barrier every time I wanted to do it. I mean, it's just like a straight up survival mechanism our brain has, I think. Yeah, probably. I don't know. Everyone has it, but I think it's. Yeah. Some people, I guess. Yeah. It's not easy to kill yourself. No, not at all. That's probably by design. Yeah, no, completely. I wish I could a lot. You could have stayed there longer and eventually a train would have come. I think I might have had to wait all night, you know.

[00:41:51] No, I think they closed the trains off at a certain time. At some point, you've cried yourself out, you're tired, whatever. You walk home. Yeah, I walked back and I laid in a park for, you know, like another two hours wanting to do nothing. And that's been kind of the way I sort of dealt with it, I suppose. Just do nothing. It's better than dying, I suppose. I know it was the night, but if a stranger had walked up to you, a friendly feeling stranger, friendly stranger, and said, are you all right, mate?

[00:42:20] That mate's more Australian. What would they have said in England? They would say mate. Are you? They'd maybe go for a bro. Maybe. So let's just say, you know, are you okay, bro? What would you have said? No. Yeah, I would have said no. But that's one of the things that I find difficult. Like that, you know, no one did that. I was standing on a bridge crying for two hours and no one did that. Like, no one came up and said, are you all right? No one came up and was like, what are you doing? Why are you standing here on this bridge?

[00:42:48] You know, like there were people working in shops and stuff who probably could have seen me. That's what we are as a species. Well, what some of us are. And the other part of us aren't like that, you know, and that's what you've got to be a part of. I don't know what I would have said beyond no, to be fair. I really struggle. This is one of the reasons I wanted to come on this podcast is that I find it really hard to articulate this kind of way of feeling. Because I only speak to like people really close to me. Some things just like can't be unsaid.

[00:43:17] You don't want to, or at least I don't feel like I want to like cross a line for anyone that might affect my relationship with them, you know. And that is ridiculous really because that's kind of who I am. And that's kind of more true than not doing that. But equally, it's not just who I am. I'm also other things. I don't want those things to get overlooked. I think people have a real problem with when they meet someone who's really depressed or struggles a lot.

[00:43:45] They let that kind of characterize who that person is. And this is something I felt fell victim to with my housemate. Yeah, I didn't believe she could be anything other than that because she'd gone to such an extreme. And I think people have that problem. That's certainly why I don't open up to my family about it. Because I think they would just think, oh shit, like we've got him so wrong. We don't know anything about him. It's like, that's not true. You do know stuff about me. You do know who I am. You just don't know a little bit of it.

[00:44:14] It like overshadows everything. Yeah. At times as well. Like when I'm with people, this is why I think people are the biggest thing to stop you feeling that way. To stop people feeling. And that's why loneliness is so, so dangerous. You don't have people. It's so hard to feel like anyone cares when you feel really lonely. Yeah. Like ultimately that's what it comes down to. Just having some kind of reminder that you're worth caring about. Even if you can't care about yourself.

[00:44:41] If someone else cares about you, it's like maybe I shouldn't commit suicide because, you know, so and so will, their life will be better because of it. And that's kind of the ethos that sort of pulled me through for the last few years. It's not selfish to make that decision. I just, I don't know. I personally, I feel like I would be being a hypocrite after the amount of judgment I've been giving out to people who aren't nice. And aren't sort of. Well, I was hearing, I was hearing something different. And I could have heard you wrong.

[00:45:11] Was that one of the reasons that keeps you around are the people. Yeah. Yeah. That's much closer to selfless. Yeah, I suppose. Yeah, I suppose it is. Yeah. Which is, you know, this, this thing that comes up all the time on the podcast, right? About, is it selfish? I don't feel that way about it at all. But like, I do feel a responsibility more to the people I know than to myself to stay alive. You got to have something that keeps you around. Yeah, I think so.

[00:45:38] So somebody that's considering entering their lives is in a lot of fucking pain. Now you're going to slap selfish on them. Why? Now you dealt with this personally. I think it comes from a place of selfishness, to be honest. The person, the person who is labeling them that is unable to deal with how hurt and the emotions that they are feeling because of their decision.

[00:46:03] You're in such an emotional turmoil as someone who has, you know, lost someone or someone, you know, you feel like someone wants to leave you and they can't deal with it. And they don't know how to deal with it. And some people, when they get angry, when they get overly emotional, they go on the attack and they say things like they blame the person. Did you do that at all with your friend? I think I probably did to a degree, but I was, thanks to your podcast, aware.

[00:46:31] Because when that happened, I realized like, shit, I don't know really anything about suicide. And she was trying to talk to me about it. And I wasn't saying things like that. Like I wasn't, but I don't think I was approaching it necessarily in the right way. I definitely didn't understand it. And it's so hard to have a conversation like that when you don't feel like you understand it. Because you just know that everything you're saying is probably so inappropriate and probably so not the right thing to say.

[00:46:58] So I looked it up, suicide, looked up things about it and found your podcast. And it was like, here, we're going to learn about how to talk to suicide survivors about their experience in a positive way. And you found this podcast during that time with her. Yeah. After she, yeah, after she attempted because it was like a literal, I was in your shoes with her. But let's be really clear. You were friends with her. We're not friends. No, no, obviously.

[00:47:25] But I mean, like I was someone talking to suicide attempt survivors or a suicide attempt survivor. And the whole point of your podcast was about how people don't know how to have these conversations in a way that is actually productive and helpful for the suicide attempt survivor. So I was like, hang on, maybe this is something that will help me. I don't even think that's the primary reason that this podcast exists. But I think it might be a byproduct of it, which is kind of cool. Really? It's for the survivors almost, right? Was kind of the perception I got at times as well.

[00:47:54] So I thought, and I mean, it may have shifted over time, but it's like giving space for someone to talk is cool. I'm being very like casual with my language. But I also knew that like I was onto something that I think seemed obvious to me, but really didn't seem obvious to a lot of people is because of the power of a podcast and a phone. And it's so easy these days. Like listening to other people talk about it is helpful for them. And it goes against a lot of people think, oh no, it's like, and I'm like, you're, I rarely say this. Not rarely.

[00:48:23] There are probably people out there who this is not for them. But if you are struggling with suicide, hearing people talk openly about suicide is almost always more beneficial than not. Now, there might be people who see it differently and don't email me or never listen to the podcast again. I'm sure that exists. But overwhelmingly people tell me this is far more helpful than not. And in that, I guess there's some learning that happens. No, I know what you mean. I know what you mean.

[00:48:48] And in the same vein, like listening to other survivors talk about their experience and almost more hearing how they talk about it was more useful. I wasn't like, I wasn't asking her if she'd take the pink or purple. My role is a little different, but yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it's been very interesting. I've gotten that kind of feedback and weirdly, surprisingly, it hasn't happened a lot, but I've gotten emails from people who lost people who say they find solace in hearing.

[00:49:17] And I would have thought just the opposite. I would have thought if I lost somebody, the last thing I want to hear is somebody who's alive. No, because it's so hard to, especially if that person's already gone, you, it's so hard to understand what they've gone through. And that's right. You can't ask them in a similar way to like, yeah, like the same situation with my friend. I couldn't really just ask her. You kind of have to come from a place of understanding first for people to be willing to open up about it.

[00:49:41] Because like the stuff I go through with my friends and my family, like you, if you don't think someone understands that you just won't have the conversation. I want to explore something you just said. You have to come from a place of understanding to have that conversation. Do you know what I hear? I think that's what you said. And I think, no, no, no. The trying to understand is the conversation. Yeah. But that's almost what I mean. I don't mean like you have to have been an attempt to or been really depressed.

[00:50:05] You have to understand what someone in that situation wants from a conversation like that about it. You can't just go in and be like, right, well, this is what I think I should talk to you about. It is astounding that people don't understand that concept more. Yeah. This is where I'm going to get a little didactic. Here we go. There's a very simple way. If it were really hard, I would understand it. It's not a guarantee.

[00:50:30] Here's what you do when you're talking to somebody and you're not sure what to say and you don't know how the conversation is going to flow and you're not sure what they need. Check this out. You ready? You ask them. Now, in that case, would she have been able to communicate or articulate? Maybe not. But it's a very, very good starting point. You don't try and tell them anything, which is one of the mistakes that I probably made with her before I'd sort of learned about it a bit more. Because everyone's experience is so subjective and so completely different.

[00:50:59] You don't know. You don't know. You don't know. Well, not nothing.

[00:51:58] I just want to talk about this thing that nobody understands. Or open the space up. I think the answer to that, though, lies in the fact that it is so hard for people to deal with being around it in that the way to actually deal with it the best is to stand there and go, this thing that is really frightening and hard for me to deal with because I don't understand it. I don't understand it. You have to accept that within yourself. You don't understand it to have that conversation in the first place.

[00:52:27] And that is only validating why it's such a difficult thing to deal with. I don't understand it. And it is scary because the stakes are pretty high and you're thinking, oh, my God, this person might hurt themselves or even end their lives. For everyone involved. You know what's scarier than it is? Probably. I can't really compare this or measure this. You were scared maybe having that conversation. Or if it wasn't you, a lot of people are. It's scary. I don't understand it. You know who it's scarier for? The person in it. Fuck yeah.

[00:52:57] And there's nothing that breaks down human communication like fear and like people not knowing what to do. You won't be able to figure out what the thing is because you don't want to commit suicide properly. And they do. They will be feeling something or thinking something that you are not burdened with unless you're someone who is also suicidal. Is it possible for you to have a conversation with someone and keep it open and empathetic even if you don't understand any of it?

[00:53:26] That's a question to ask oneself. It's hard. But we don't have to. I always say this. It's like half joke. But there's some truth to it. I'm never going to be pregnant. But if there's a woman in labor pains, I can have empathy. You're in pain. I am not going to feel bad pain. I don't want to minimize it because the reality is it is fucking scary. And especially if it's someone really close to you. No, I don't mean this to be all woe is me either as someone who's known an attempter.

[00:53:56] And, you know, I've obviously I think I feel like I've been there myself as well. I've definitely felt that same sort of darkness and pain that people who attempt feel. Yeah, so I think I can talk about it from a place of understanding now. But back then, I probably wasn't so understanding. Well, let me ask you this. How many people know about it? I think maybe that one friend. Maybe that one friend. And maybe I was trying to remember this. I don't know if I told my girlfriend or not. I'm talking about the train. Yeah.

[00:54:25] After I went to the bridge, I remember coming back in and I sat on the sofa crying as well. And then she came in, my mate. Well, I might have asked her to come and talk to me because I was like, she's someone who will at least help probably or at least kind of get it. You know, she's not someone who's going to like come in and make the situation worse. Yeah, I think I spoke to her about it. I said what had happened. And I think she just sat there. I think she just sat with me.

[00:54:52] And that was all I needed for someone to be with. And just a bit of company to kind of feel that with me. And it was really helpful, I think, the way that she would have dealt with it. But even then, I don't really specifically remember, to be totally honest. I remember she was there when I got back. And I only remember her being there, really. It was very valuable to have someone like that in a situation like that. Or I don't know what would have happened. How many since that day up until this day?

[00:55:22] How often do you ideate? I would say almost daily. It depends on the week, to be honest. But this morning, for one. This afternoon as well. I was fucking kept back at work by all these miserable bastards, like eating my life away. And every time anything goes wrong, I'm like, why am I doing any of this to myself? Why am I bothering to persist with all of this when this is what it brings? Yeah. There have been long periods where it's been like daily for a good couple of months.

[00:55:51] What's that to? For a long time, it was weed. Smoking weed. Actually stopped you from attempting? Probably. Because it switched me off to how much I can get in my own head about feeling bad about things and overanalyzing just how terrible I think things are. So yeah, it definitely helped to a degree. But then that kind of became its own problem. And now I've got my partner. And I don't know what I would do without her, to be honest. And that's another thing. You don't really want to say that to your partner.

[00:56:19] As nice as it is in principle, you don't really want to say that. Because then how can they make their own honest decision about their relationship and whether they want to be with you and stuff like that? Or they've got this all playing in their head. Put a lot of pressure on somebody, yeah. Yeah. Like, it's not fair. And also, I like knowing that she loves me, you know. And that she's not just with me because she thinks I'm going to kill myself otherwise. I don't think that's why most people are with people. No, obviously not. Obviously not. But like, she's very nice, you know. Where is she? Yeah.

[00:56:48] Traveling around Europe. She works as like an orchestra manager, like doing logistics for, yeah, this big like classical music orchestra. So that just rubs it in even further. That's what I was thinking. She probably likes her job. Yeah. She went and did a music degree at university and has like a dream job flying around Europe. Which is nice to be in the proximity of that, you know, but it's just a reminder of how wrong I might have taken my life.

[00:57:15] I give advice almost never in my life or on this podcast, but I'm going to tell you something. I know you've thought about this every day for years. Quit that fucking job, please. Yeah, mate. Yeah, I'm getting straight on LinkedIn this week. LinkedIn is a creepy place, but okay. Yeah, true. But listen, listen, listen, listen. I understand you're not going to do it overnight. I understand you got to be responsible and make sure you can pay your rent and all that shit. I get it. What took you so long to reach out? Because I didn't think I was, I don't know.

[00:57:44] It's one of my, one of the myths I wrote down is that I don't think you have to have necessarily tried to kill yourself to want to die. And I feel like I fall into that category. Like I hear all of these, you know, absolutely horrific stories about experiences people have been through on here. And it's humbling to me in a way that I haven't got that far with it yet. And I hope I never get that far with it. Wait a second. Do you hope for that? Yeah, yeah, I think so.

[00:58:14] But also I would never do that anyway. Like it would be jumping a train, you know, to be totally honest, it was because you started adding, I think you added it right. The suicide attempt survivor or ideated credit to a past guest who suggested that. Those are kind of the people who I find the most useful to hear. And I do find a lot of solace from hearing about the attempt survivors and stuff, but it's the people who are kind of carrying on. And I think in that respect, I have a good story to tell.

[00:58:43] And I think it would be useful to those people to hear that. And also up the type one diabetic representation. There's not enough of us. Representation. Also, Harvey, you made it clear you want to do good in the world and be nice. And this is a way of doing that because people will hear this and some will resonate with it, just like you resonate with some of their stories. So now you'll be part of that, which is kind of cool. How many people know we're talking? None. And I don't think I'll tell anyone. Maybe my girlfriend, but I don't think so. It's not for me, is it? It's not for me and the people I know.

[00:59:12] I mean, maybe I'll tell someone in a bit, but it will only bring me questions from people who will wind me up. So that means you won't share the podcast with anyone? No. I've told people to listen to it in the past. Do you think you'll be able to hear it? Yeah, I imagine I'll listen back to it maybe. I'll probably think I sound like a real moaner, you know. Yeah. Did you spend any time in a mental hospital or a psych unit? I haven't, no.

[00:59:35] Last year or a couple of years ago, because of my whole, maybe a year and a half ago, when I was living on my own, because of the way I struggle to deal with people and my ambivalence, my sort of feeling with emotion. And also the fact that I'm kind of a people pleaser. I thought for a while I was a sociopath, maybe. Yeah, I know. This is the reaction everyone has. I think the data set for sociopathy and the data set for a lot of mental conditions is based on like people getting hurt.

[01:00:01] But then I went to a doctor and they gave me a thing, like a meeting, an interview for an hour. And they asked me all these questions and I just basically got it all completely wrong. Like they asked me, like, do you have, did you have friends growing up? And like I had friendship groups and like I was able to kind of get along with people, but I never felt connected to anyone. I didn't say that, you know. But like I was also thinking on the way into it.

[01:00:24] I was like, if you are a sociopath and you're put in a position like that, would you not kind of compulsively say the thing that will not get you diagnosed? So their diagnosis of you not being a sociopath based on what you just shared could easily be a misdiagnosis. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was one hour long thing and I said loads of stuff that wasn't even true. They asked me if I'd ever been to therapy right. And I said no. I was going to therapy at the time. Why in some spots were you blatantly dishonest, like factually dishonest? I don't know.

[01:00:54] I don't know. Oh, yeah. I was sat in the thing. I was thinking I was trying to answer it honestly. I was trying not to, but also at the same time, I was trying not to. Yeah, I don't know. But I don't dwell on that too much because at the end of the day, as that lady says in her book, like that's just a thing that some scientists have come up with to explain a way that some people are. And it doesn't actually really mean a whole lot. They said I was probably alexithemic, which is like you have a numbness to emotion to a degree. And I was like, okay, well, that's enough for me, really. You know, someone's validated at least.

[01:01:24] What's the purpose of that? Something's going on there. Yeah. Wait, can I just say something? I've never done this before. Yeah. This is a first. I love firsts. I'm not going to ask you your memoir title yet. I'm going to propose one for your girlfriend. Just hear me out. It's going to rub you the wrong way at first, but then let it settle. Could your girlfriend's memoir be, am I in love with a sociopath? I like that. Because I don't want to make it a statement.

[01:01:51] I'm in love with or I'm dating a sociopath because we don't know if you are one. And also it's a thing that that lady says is so misunderstood. It's like, why would I want to give myself that label when every time I tell anyone I have that label, I then have to go on for like an hour explaining how it doesn't mean I go out and kill people in the night. You know, and like I'm not some kind of absolute nut job because it doesn't mean that basically. And that's not why I think I might be that sort of thing. You think you might be that in part due to this numbness? Yeah.

[01:02:19] To emotional numbness and ability to kind of manipulate people. Things like that, like I know I kind of have to a degree, but I don't care enough. Well, it doesn't mean that much to me. Even though I know this question might be answered dishonest, if you've been dishonest, have you been dishonest with me thus far? No, I genuinely don't think so. And that was one of the reasons I was excited to do this, because that's sort of, you know, that same kind of compulsion. We don't have a relationship.

[01:02:49] This doesn't mean like I don't have to worry about jeopardizing my relationship with you. The whole point of this podcast is people come on here and say stuff that you don't hear them say anywhere else. Yeah, but if you're a manipulative person, that's what you do. Everybody manipulates situations to a little degree. I mean, it's just you, I think. And I don't use that in a negative way. Maybe manipulates, not the right word. Everyone wants a little control. Everyone wants a little control of their narrative. You create your own reality, don't you? It's a unique relationship.

[01:03:17] It's one of the reasons the podcast works, because it's I'm not your friend. I'm not your lover. I'm not a doctor. I'm not your coworker. I'm not your boss. There's a sort of unique, not quite stranger on the train. I have the benefit of you having heard tens or hundreds of conversations before. So you come in with perhaps a trust and an understanding, hopefully, that I've established, like, I'm going to try to see through the bullshit. I'm sure some people have gotten stuff by me. Good on you.

[01:03:45] Let's just keep it real, because you don't have a lot of places in your life to get that real. So why not do it here? But, you know, this is exactly one of the reasons why I have no interest in classifying myself as a sociopath. I don't really think, you know, a sociopath, probably not to lean into the negative connotations of it that that lady's trying to get rid of, would be the sort of person to come on and do that kind of thing. It's too honest. You've got to be too honest on this show. I don't think they would be able to. I don't know. You genuinely believe what you're saying, which I think people use the word pathological,

[01:04:15] but I could be using that incorrectly. It's hard to know if someone's lying. And at some point, I have to give someone the benefit of the doubt. For example, if you never stood on that bridge, on that train, I mean, I'm not going to question you on that. No. Yeah. No. Like, if you want to lie about that. Okay. Like if that gives you some, whatever your reasons are. But I just think like, man, they're just, I'm just giving you a little space to just be completely honest. But there are people that probably, I don't think they, I don't think those people email me. I bet one or two, you know, men like let's fuck with this guy and yeah. Okay.

[01:04:44] And I wonder who they are. I think the people who really know me probably see parts of that. And if they were to ask me about dark stuff, they would probably think I was being a bit overdramatic because of all the things I've gone over, like because of how much on the surface my life doesn't seem to be anything to be complaining about. And it fundamentally comes down to the fact that they don't have fucking diabetes or any

[01:05:10] kind of lifelong invisible illness that just seriously ruins your psychology. Basically. If you don't have something like that, you can't really understand it. I didn't even understand it when I had it. But people in the real world are so humbling. And the fact that they've tried and still live on is something that brings me great comfort in some ways. Yeah. I don't know. I'd imagine my life would have to get worse somehow, even though I think about it a lot and even though I feel like I want to do it a lot to actually make that final step.

[01:05:39] I think something, something would have to change, but something can change, you know? So we'll see. Something could change in the other direction too, but I'm not an optimist. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe. Maybe you'll see me at Glastonbury in five years. Ah, you chuckle, but maybe we will. So do you have a therapist now? No. Um, I desperately want one, but because of my work being, I work eight till six every day. So every weekday.

[01:06:06] So none of them work, you know, I've messaged countless therapists like hopeless, um, which is pretty grim. Yeah. Yeah. So frustrating. Do you take meds other than the obvious diabetes stuff? No. No. No. Yeah. I've never been to like doctors about my psychology because I think things come and go like the plan, the, the optimistic way of doing it is that it will go. So I suppose I've spent periods of my life where I've probably not felt like nothing's worth doing.

[01:06:35] You know, I hope to be back in one of those at some point in the future. And I feel like to me, it's kind of an acceptance that I don't know. It's an acceptance. Yeah. That I'm struggling really. And I, it's a staple of my dealing with the situation that I try not to do that. I try not to accept it. Just forget about it and move on. Um, and it doesn't help in the long run. I mean, I, there's millions of people in that exact space right now. Yeah. And it actually probably works for some people.

[01:07:02] Like I've met people at work who seem like they're properly born and bred corporate capitalists and like that's what they value in the world because they haven't been told anything else. It works for me to a degree. Like with my partner, if she, if I'm feeling like shit and she suggests doing something with a shred of, with what, with a lot of intuition. Usually from her, I'll do it because at some point in doing it, some of her enthusiasm will

[01:07:30] probably rub off onto me and I'll be a little bit better about things, even if it doesn't make me joyous, you know? So yeah, I don't know. I think that kind of works to a degree, but like not just keeping busy with anything, but the workaholics I deal with at work who are like at work till 10 o'clock every day. That's no way to live. So the only diagnosis you got other than diabetes is the, uh, word I can't pronounce, but it's... Mildly alexithemic. Yeah. That's a tough one to spell. Is that it? Is that the only one?

[01:08:00] That's it. Yeah. I'm, I'm, I think, but I might be forgetting something blatantly obvious again, but, um, no, I think that's it. Like I've known I've been depressed and seriously depressed at times, but, um, my mum obviously being an Eastern medicine person and semi-therapist, like has kind of, I think, equipped me pretty well to, to talk myself down. Another reason to, why I was leaning towards the cold sociopathy thing, not to dwell on

[01:08:28] it, was that therapists are just, they're just another person, aren't they? And like, that's, that can be really valuable and that can be all you need, but equally it can be really not helpful. I don't need someone telling me who I am and what I am and all this when I know myself probably better than they will in talking to me. How extreme does it have to, and I think the reality of it is it has to get to a pretty extreme level before you really have something like that going on.

[01:08:56] It's like a level of awareness, right? It's like, and I'm, and I don't use these terms medically cause I don't know what really, but like when you're getting to the point of like legitimate disassociation, like that gets to a point where it can be pretty shitty in your life. Yeah. You don't realize that you've done it. You don't realize it's going on. I'm sort of aware, at least in hindsight, you know, like, and I think that's more than, more than you'd get really. It's played into my power, using your powers for good things as well.

[01:09:23] Do you, do you since the day on the bridge ever wish that a trainer come and you had jumped? I don't know. I don't think so, but I also don't associate that as like the only time I would have done it, you know? Yeah. I think I was probably in a much closer place to really doing it when I've been at home with my insulin late at night and stuff like that. I don't know that, that felt like kind of the first sort of time I was really aware of feeling that way when I went to the bridge because it was like, it was a gesture that I understood

[01:09:53] that was what it meant. I didn't really understand why I was going there and I didn't really know what was going to happen when I went there. But then looking back on it afterwards, I was like, oh, okay, that's what that was. And then that made me think about, you know, how I was with my blood sugar and all of the rest of it in a very different light and be like, actually, hang on, maybe I'm kind of kidding myself a bit here about the damage I'm consciously doing to myself and why I'm doing that. When was the last time you had an incident, if we want to call it that?

[01:10:23] The last week since George has not been here, I've not had my testers so that you get these things now. They're like a patch you get on your arm and it tells you in live time how, what your blood sugar is. And they're really, really helpful for controlling your blood sugar. I lost mine. It came off at a rave last weekend. And since then I've been on the analog tester going days at a time without even testing. It's probably why my eyes look so messed up. You don't do much, but you went to a rave.

[01:10:50] Yeah. You know, I do things more now than I did in the past, but that's part of it, isn't it? You got to engage yourself and do things and keep yourself busy. I know that's the kind of ideology that I said, like, doesn't sort of, doesn't really work and isn't really that healthy, but it's something that semi works. So it's better than nothing. And to be fair, it was my birthday. Two of my mates came down. Happy belated. Happy belated. Crashing into my quarter life crisis.

[01:11:18] Yes. I feel like you were in a crisis before the quarter life. Yeah. Myths and misconceptions. You wrote some down. What did we not cover? You don't have to be, you don't have to have tried to kill yourself to want to die. It's like the difference is like three steps, you know, sometimes depending on the situation you're in, or like literally pressing a button on the end of my thing and jabbing it in me. Yeah. I don't know. You can't come any closer without literally trying to end your life. And

[01:11:46] that doesn't just because you haven't done that doesn't mean it invalidates everything about how you're feeling. And like you're saying, I would be willing to bet there's a hell of a lot of people out there who feel that way and don't feel they can talk about suicide and about feeling suicidal because they don't feel like they're worthy, especially with the people who are the most useful to talk about it with. The people who have attempted and people who understand the topic, because you think they're probably the ones who would kind of judge you the most for putting

[01:12:14] yourself in that sort of class as it were, as like a kind of pretender. But that happened to a degree with my mate actually at uni. I could understand why she would feel that way about it. Yeah, sure. Any other myths? You can feel other things than sadness, but still feel overwhelmed in your bad moments. Sometimes I feel like I'm presenting falsely that I'm happy and enjoying things. And sometimes I genuinely think I am enjoying things and I am happy. And I don't think that invalidates again,

[01:12:42] like the utter despair that you can be in at just another moment. You know, those moments are when people will commit suicide. You know, they're not trying 24 hours a day, every day of the week for months. They will have one night or, you know, one night a week or one night a month where they suddenly hit that bottom and they might get overlooked and those experiences might get forgotten about

[01:13:07] because when they're with other people, sometimes genuinely they will have an all right time. I just saw him two days ago at the bar and we had a great time. I don't understand. He killed himself. Yeah. And I think I don't see a lot of my friends that regularly. And I don't, I wouldn't broach this kind of topic with them because of that reason. I think when I am with them, I genuinely am happy and it provides a really nice escape for me from the feelings of despair and sadness that I suffer with a lot of the rest of the time. And I don't want to jeopardize

[01:13:37] that experience, you know, getting to have that experience with them and getting to escape to that with those people by, by being honest about how I feel the rest of the time when I'm not with them, because I think it would affect how they view me, but it shouldn't. They should, you know, they should listen and be okay with it and then treat me the same. Pink and purple pill. I thought about this a lot and I would not take it because if I did take it off you,

[01:14:04] I would take it. Like that's exactly the kind of thing that I want. And I'm annoyed that I don't have that some days and I'm grateful I don't have that other days. And that's kind of life. There are days, there are days, there are probably days in your life where had you had that pill, we wouldn't be having a conversation. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. There would be no, um, there would be no, and there will be more days like that in my life where yeah, would take it in a heartbeat. Well, I don't know. There was just like you would take it in a heartbeat. There'd be another heartbeat

[01:14:32] where you don't want to take it. So it's like, why should I do what I feel in that moment more than the other moment? But yeah, kind of what I mean about how humbling it is listening to your other listeners as well is that they are in that place all the time. Some people, um, if it was like that for me, I would, yeah, I would be seriously, I would take it. I'm happy enough with some things that I've got. So I've got to be grateful for that. And I think, I don't know, I think it would be,

[01:14:58] well, I would feel ungrateful in a way because I think even people on your podcast, like if they had what I had, I suppose they would think that. And I say that like, I'm not really wealthy or well off or rich. I just mean like I'm not suffering. I'm not out on the streets or like in poverty, which is an absolutely disturbing amount of the world lives in situations like that. You know, if you're not, it could be worse, but it could always be. I know this is the thing. I'm my own worst enemy, Sean.

[01:15:26] By the way, for the guests who are, for listeners new, Pink and Purple Pill is simply something fictional where if someone takes it, they go to sleep, they don't wake up. There's no pain and no one knows it's a suicide. If you were wondering about that, I hope you listen to more episodes. Um, do we have a memoir title for you? I know as a songwriter, I don't know if you are one, but you're a musician. Have you thought about that? I don't know. I don't know. I was hoping you'd do one. I wrote one down and immediately hated it. I don't want to die, but why must I live? I felt was a nice one.

[01:15:54] There's potential with that. There's a, there are a couple of issues. Tell me again, please say it again. I don't want to die, but why must I live? That works. Are you going to, you're going to lecture me on grammar as an American? Touche. It's not a lecture. Number one, you need a lesson here on memoir writing. Okay. Yeah. Go on. It's not about grammar. It's about, you have to capture the, an idea. Well, and I have to want to read the book, even though there's no book that's going to be written. I don't want to live.

[01:16:23] I don't want to die. Well, yeah, because I think that's sort of, I think that kind of is true to a degree. I don't want to die, but I don't want to live. I don't want to do anything. I don't want to exist is how I would describe it. So what you just said, I think is even stronger. Why must I live? I think the problem was it. What was it I said just then? Yeah. Well, the problem was that I was trying to write a memoir title, not someone who does it for a career. The problem part of it, it is that you're British and I'm American because there's something with

[01:16:49] the word must that you use more often than we do and it doesn't resonate. So it might resonate well. It'll resonate with a British audience, but I want you to go global. And you just said something else. You're like, I don't want to live, but I don't want to die. It was actually more straight to the point. I think I actually liked it more. We're not there. We're not there. Maybe when Georgia comes back, she can crystallize it for us and make it perfect. I like that. What did you come up with earlier for her? I'm in love with a sociopath. Am I in love with a sociopath? Am I in love with a sociopath? Yeah, because that works on both levels because I don't even know.

[01:17:19] And also, no, it does actually also work for her. She's a bit of a dutter, to be honest. I could see it in her. I could believe it. Oh shit. The two of you together, you make quite a duo. In two months, the World Cup starts, how does England do? England's going to win. They're going to win the World Cup. The other question, final one. I think this legitimately is the final one. We've had a good two-hour talk, but I want you to add things that I may not have asked about or

[01:17:43] whatever else. What instrument or instruments do you play? I play the piano and drums and I sing as well, hence the microphone. Not well enough to be successful and not with enough energy after my work days to actually get any ideas down, which is really a pain of mine. I do more DJing, I would say now, which is shameful to say, really, when you don't get any gigs. But it's just easier.

[01:18:08] I can spend an hour just DJing tracks that I like listening to, enjoying the music, as opposed to six hours in a kind of torturous hellscape trying to write music and hating myself. Yeah. What else would you like to share before? Now it's mid-afternoon here, so I'm going to do some stuff, but I guess it's getting late there. Yeah. No, it's all right. I don't know. I think that's everything. I don't know. I love everyone in

[01:18:36] my life. I love you, Sean, and everyone who's been a part of your podcast. Is that the memoir title? I don't think. Maybe that's it. I think Georgia would have a problem with that. He's all loved. Yeah, maybe. Sweetie, your memoir titles I love, and is this a man's name? I love everyone. Why not? This is a person you don't really know, and it's a man. I think we should talk. Without digressing much into semantics and loneliness and how you could be lonely in a room full of people that love

[01:19:02] you, but I will tell you, the difference maker for a lot of people is they have no one around. Yeah, not to go on about my girlfriend, but I do think regularly, when I'm having the shit time and trying to get myself out of it, I do think where would my life be if I hadn't been with her? Like, and it would be fucking bleak. Thank God. Thank God she's around. Georgia, you won't hear this, but I hope you enjoyed your two week traveling and you're doing

[01:19:31] good for Harvey. Is that a fair thing to say? Yeah, I think you've been so nice about her. I'll probably tell her to give it a listen. Oh, yes, yes, yes. Because, yeah, because and also a lot of people say like it's really useful to communicate to people who they can't really talk to about how it, how it, and I think I have not represented myself in a way that it would be the kind of gut instinct reaction that they would have if I was to say things like that. A hundred percent. It's a sort of vehicle that they can use without face-to-face conversation, which I think is important.

[01:20:01] One last random question. Where or how is your friend from college who tried to kill herself? She's good. She's doing all right. She's still alive. She's working at a pub where the pub landlord killed himself a few weeks ago, which was mad to hear about. But yeah, I stopped actually hanging out with her for a while, almost like a kind of cut off thing because it was almost too much.

[01:20:27] The way our personalities played off each other, we're both very cynical, depressive people, you know, and when we were like at university, we were each other's best mate and like the biggest influence in each other's lives. And it didn't, I don't think benefit either of us really. It did, you know, it did in a lot of respects and we both made it through uni alive and you don't know what would have happened otherwise, but it wasn't a place that I wanted to spend any more time in.

[01:20:53] It felt like because we had this kind of serious codependency because of being through that kind of stuff together on both sides for both of us, there was too much responsibility on the friendship to kind of be really, really close mates, be best mates. So I stopped hanging out with her and got really annoyed about people still hanging out with her and stuff as you do. Just because it was a very sore thing to deal with. And my stepsister was then friends with her and it was like, you know, come on, you're supposed to be my stepsister. Like I've told you how

[01:21:22] psychologically difficult this all is, but over a period of months realized like, actually it was that kind of codependency and that kind of burden to be close friends and to ask about this kind of serious stuff all the time. And that that was what our relationship kind of became. And actually, if we didn't see each other so much, that wouldn't be such a problem. And I saw her a few weeks ago for the first time in probably like a year, if not longer. And it was really, really nice.

[01:21:50] We do really understand each other and we do really know each other very well and have history where we've both been through stuff in our lives. And it's like, oh shit. Yeah. We were there for that. You were there for that. It's chill. It's like casual and like being mates again. Yeah, it was nice. It was really nice. And she's doing well, which is nice. Thanks for talking. Yeah. Thank you so much, Sean. Thanks for having me on. I hope the rest of your evening as well. And I will be rooting for England in the World Cup.

[01:22:17] I promise you that. Appreciate your time and your candor and wishing you all good things, my man. Yeah, you too, Sean. Thanks so much. Take care. See you later. As always, thanks so much for listening and all of your support. And special thanks to Harvey in England, the UK. Thanks, Harvey. If you are a suicide attempt survivor or ideator and you'd like to talk, please reach out. I'd love to talk with you. Hello at suicidenoted.com. Friendly reminder,

[01:22:42] if you rate or review this podcast on Apple in particular, it helps people find the podcast. So I encourage you to do that. It only takes a few moments. And that is all for this week's episode. So stay strong. Do the best you can. I'll talk to you soon.