Elizabeth in the Eastern U.S.

[00:00:00] If someone's struggling with suicidality, it's really easy to want to push them towards life. And of course she wants them to stay, you know? But you have to come alongside them first, really, and kind of hear why they want to take their own life, get some of that out, and really deal with what's going on.

[00:00:37] Hey there, my name is Sean and this is Suicide Noted. On this podcast, I talk with suicide attempt survivors and ideators so that we can hear their stories. Every year around the world, millions of people try to take their own lives and we almost never talk about it. We certainly don't talk about it enough. And when we do talk about it, when we engage with people in pain, most of us are not very good at it. Most of us are actually really bad at it.

[00:01:00] Sorry if that offends you, but it's simply the truth. One of my goals here on this podcast is to have more conversations and hopefully better conversations with survivors in large part to help more people in more places hopefully feel a little less shitty and a little less alone. Now, if you are an attempt survivor or ideator and you'd like to talk, I'd love to talk with you. Please reach out. Hello at suicidenoted.com. I promise I will get back to you rather quickly.

[00:01:24] A quick shout out to Matt. Thanks, Matt. He gave a financial contribution helping the cause. It's tax deductible, y'all. We got a new fiscal sponsor, so that link will look a little different, but I've replaced it just about everywhere, so that shouldn't be an issue. Let me know if it is. We could use the help. And again, if there's anything you cannot find on this on Spotify or Apple or wherever you listen or our website, just shoot me an email, a message. I'm happy to get back to you. Start a conversation, give you the information you need or whatever it else may be.

[00:01:51] Finally, we are talking about suicide here on this podcast. My guests and I do not hold back, so please take that into account before you listen or as you listen. But I do hope you listen because there is so much to learn. Today, I am talking with Elizabeth. Elizabeth lives in the Eastern United States of America, and she is a suicide attempt-ish survivor. Hey, Elizabeth. Well, thanks for wanting to talk with me. I appreciate it.

[00:02:19] Thank you for all you do for doing this. That's a lot. You're welcome. You are a suicide attempt survivor? So it actually depends on how you define it. That's your job.

[00:02:31] Yeah, because I've taken steps towards suicide. I've never actually physically harmed myself, but I've taken steps towards it. And one time I was taking steps, like I was taking a step towards it, and my foot slipped. And that's what stopped me. Wait, when you say a step, you meant a literal step. Yes, physical. Yeah. We can imagine what the method was. Yeah, method was one of them that I'd rather not go into.

[00:03:00] No problem. But I have a question about that, which also may be something you don't want to talk about. Because it's a big thing in the world of suicide of not talking about method. And I have some strong feelings about that that probably don't really matter. Why, for you, is it important, at least in this context, to not talk about it?

[00:03:18] I've told multiple people about this. And I think some of them are kind of still getting their feet wet into this kind of stuff. My gut's telling me that it's not quite, you know, I do talk about method other places. So sometimes if it's not as public. So the more public it is, the more I kind of, I'm a little more careful with what I say. Sure, sure.

[00:03:42] But other places, sometimes I have, and very openly, I've written some stuff that I share with very few people. And one, I've written one thing that I wanted to share here, too. Definitely. Before we do that, you've heard the podcast? Yeah, I've heard. I listened to three episodes. It's so weird that I'd never actually come up with the best way to frame this question. But so the most direct way of asking is like, why do you want to talk with me about this and have other humans hear it?

[00:04:08] I just think it's so important. I think this is something that it's a very common thing, living with suicidality. I think we just, like you've said, we just don't tend to talk about it.

[00:04:22] The last time I took steps toward suicide in 2020, one thing that really helped me, I read about an attempt survivor who had gone on to live a purposeful life and help other people. And I was like, well, you can actually get through this? And so that was a big thing for me. And so I'm hoping maybe I can do that some for other people's back. So that was 2020? Yes. 2020 was the last time. Yeah.

[00:04:50] So does that mean that you're living a meaningful and purposeful life now? Yeah, I would say I am. There are definitely times when I have strong suicidal feelings, times that I really want to do it. And it's better than it was before. There are a couple of times like the spring of 2021.

[00:05:09] So when I came close in 2020, I had no idea I was going to come close again. I didn't. I had started sharing some of my story about my past coming close to suicide, which was years before that. And I started sharing my story some with some of my friends from church. And then I came close again and I just, it was so hard to deal with. I just felt broken. Like, how did this happen? How did this happen again? I don't know.

[00:05:38] So in college, which was years ago, that was actually when my foot slipped. That's when I kept seeking out the means for suicide. And then I stayed away from taking steps towards suicide for about 18 years. Okay. And then 2020, I did. And that's when I was just like, how did I come close to this again? I thought I was done. You know, it was just like, what?

[00:06:05] So for like close to two decades, you're living, ideating? Or is it kind of not really a part of your life? Some of the time I had times when I was definitely sometimes when I wasn't too, but I had been for, I went through a trauma in 2014, was diagnosed with PTSD, which I kind of think like about PTSD. It's like, it can look different in women too, I think than in men. And sometimes that's not recognized. And so that was hard for me.

[00:06:34] But also in another way, it's like, well, hey, my body's just responding this way. You know, so why is it called a disorder? Because, okay. Well, we can have a conversation about all kinds of disorders with that framing, right? Yeah. Why are a lot of things called disorders? Like when we're actually just surviving and it's actually a tool to survive.

[00:06:54] Yeah. So I feel that way. Sometimes I'll just use the words like trauma response instead of PTSD. It just feels more human. After that, I had to settle feelings for a bit and then they went away. And then I realized what was going on.

[00:07:11] And I started kind of working on it, but I don't think it was working what I was doing. And then it started coming back and then COVID hit and things got worse. Like COVID was definitely related to it. It was just, yeah, yeah, definitely. I have a question. Do you remember, were you a little girl or teenager thinking about this stuff sometimes? I remember thinking about it once before college, but college is when it really hit. Okay.

[00:07:40] Just hard, like a sledgehammer, just wham. And then suddenly it's like, whoa, I just can't, like, I don't know how to deal. I didn't know how to deal with this anymore. It was just. Who does know how to deal with it? Yeah. Yeah. Do you know what happened and why things got like that in college?

[00:07:59] I think it was multiple factors. Actually, I tend to struggle with perfectionism. And so I wanted to do things really well. I want to get good grades. I also wanted, I like people around me to be happy. And if they're not, then sometimes I blame myself for that. Even if it's like, you know, taking responsibility for other people's emotions, it's not a helpful thing to do. So yeah, I think that was part of it. Definitely a big part of it.

[00:08:26] You know, the way you were talking about trauma and response and how it's different with men and women, but it's everybody's experience with suicide is like there's common threads and patterns, but it's so unique. Oh, yeah.

[00:08:39] Years of conversations, but they all, to me, seem new. So like, I'm like always curious. What is it like? So you're this 18, 19, 20 year old. That's a time when some people are struggling pretty hard to sometimes mental health issues kick in. But are you kind of aware of what's going on? Or are you just slipping in this, like, not really aware of it, but like, all of a sudden you're failing or relationship problems? Like, what's the level of awareness, I guess, is the question.

[00:09:08] I think a relatively low level until then I started feeling strong suicidality. And then when I started feeling that, then it was like, okay, I need to get help. And I went to the health center, then went on vacation, started seeing a counselor. So all the things you're supposed to do? Yes. Like you're checking the boxes. I'm trying, I'm trying, I'm trying. Yes. And then what happens?

[00:09:34] I had two times in college of strong suicidality. And the first time, some people were really trying to support me pretty hard, really working hard to do that. I think kind of pushing some of their own boundaries to do that, to be honest, that was a tricky thing. And then the second time through, I also had some close friends, although I had close friends the first time, but especially like the second time, maybe because I'd gone through it before.

[00:10:02] I think I had more of a memory of how to navigate probably because that's a big part of it for me. So the second time I had two friends, I'm still friends with them and they were just really there for me and helped to support me and everything. That was really helpful. And I didn't, I don't think I actually took steps towards it that time. But I'm not quite entirely clear on what you mean when you say that. To start seeking out the means for it. Planning.

[00:10:31] Planning. Yeah. Planning and like taking steps towards seeking out the means and using them. Some other things that come up a lot on this podcast that I think people who haven't dealt with this don't think about much, which makes sense. Like you think about how you want your room to look when you're gone or what papers need to be signed before you're gone. Like that's moving in my mind, like that's taking steps. And not everybody does that.

[00:10:58] But like, I would say from the conversation, I've had the majority probably think about that stuff. Yeah. I think I did some, not really in terms of like my grades or any work done. I had done it. I mean, I wouldn't have graduated. So I kind of wouldn't have. If you had graduated, if you had ended your life, I agree with that statement. Yes. Yes. Yes. Well, we don't know if you would have, that your attempt would have worked. Yeah, that's also true. I just, I don't know.

[00:11:24] The way I think about too is really when I'm feeling like I want to attempt, I really try to be careful in terms of like when I'm around, because that is very important. Trying to like not start the process for me. Yeah. Like keeping away. Because once I start, it'd be really hard to stop. I have like taken steps towards making my environment safer since 2020. With the encouragement of a friend, I will say.

[00:11:54] The difference maker sometimes. Yes. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. That's one of the reasons I ask always, like, do you have anyone to talk to? Like a lot of people really don't. And they would say, I could talk to this person and I'll say, but do you? And they say no. And I get it. Or at least from what I've learned, it's like, I get the reasons why.

[00:12:15] What's your experience been like? I mean, I know we're covering a chunk of time talking about your entire life, but what is your experience been like in talking with people about it from a personal, like, I'm having these thoughts? Well, people have always treated me with compassion and with kindness. My church friends have definitely. I think people can be there like in different ways, too. And that's one thing that the thing I wrote refers to.

[00:12:42] Because some of my friends, I think it's really like some people are okay with someone coming to them when they're going through child suicide intensity. And some people aren't. And both of those are okay. And you have to evaluate, you know, your own capacity and stuff and have boundaries as a healthy thing. I really believe that, like, there are people I can come to if I'm in the middle of having strong suicidal intensity.

[00:13:08] I don't want to make it look like that's the only way to support me, though, because other people really do in other ways. It's like, just with acts of kindness, I sent something related to an event I was going to, to my sister. I haven't really talked to her much about it. But what she did is she did, like, a bunch of things for my birthday. Like, multiple things for my birthday right around then. And I'm like, okay, message received. I knew she wanted me to stay.

[00:13:37] I know she's concerned and she wanted me to stay. That's a message, you know? I know the people from my church who have prayed with me and stuff like that and prayed for me. And I'm kind of empathic. I can sense sometimes. Sometimes I can sense, I think, when someone's praying for me. And that's really, really cool. Yeah. I don't think I've ever heard anybody say that. Yeah. I think I can sense it. And that's a tricky thing, too. Like, I know one of the questions you sent me, I hope it's okay if I kind of. Of course.

[00:14:07] If I were to write a memoir, I think it might be Reflections of a Suicidal Empath. Because... Oh, my God. You just literally went to the memoir? You went to the memoir question right away? Okay. I did. Yeah. All right. You know, usually it's my job to decide. But I'll give you a little latitude. So I love it again. Well, that's right. Oh, yes. Say it again. Reflections of a Suicidal Empath. Yeah.

[00:14:37] What we were talking about that you transitioned from was being able to know when people are praying for you. Yeah. And that's part of, I think, like the gift God has given me of being able to sense emotions and stuff that somehow I can tell. And that's really helpful. Just that knowing. I guess. I mean, it could be hard, too, though, I would think. Yes. Yes. Being an empath is kind of like a two-edged thing because, do you mind if I go ahead and read the thing that I wrote? Because it's kind of related to this.

[00:15:07] As long as it's not like an hour. No, no, no. And this was written. I will say this was written when I was in a more difficult space. So I still have some of these feelings. I can't remember if I said this already, but in 2021, in the spring, there was this point in time. I remember this space in time where I just felt like suicide was inevitable. I'm glad I was wrong. I'll just put it that way. I didn't write this during that time. I think it was after that.

[00:15:36] So my emotions that I'm expressing in this writing, some of them are still there, but maybe not as strongly. I'm just kind of clarifying. So it's called In Between. Sitting in the in between. Life and death waiting. Alone? Should I be? Can I tell you where I am? I'm scared of scaring you, hurting you. Because I don't know where I'll be. Just honestly. In a year? A month?

[00:16:06] Maybe even a day. Can I stay? In the in between? No shame or blame if you can't be here. But if you can, when you can. Be there with me next time I'm bench pressing, treading water. My mind bouncing frantically back and forth one to another. Seeing you in my memory. Hearing you. Helps me remember there's another way. A safe place to rest and breathe. To be in the in between.

[00:16:36] Thanks for sharing that. When did you write that? My suicidality fluctuates so much. It fluctuates a lot. And so, yeah, it was just kind of written. It was written after a meeting, actually, in one of the groups I'm part of and we're talking about. Because sometimes it's really easy. Like if you see someone, if someone's struggling with suicidality, it's really easy to want to like push them towards life. And of course you want them to stay, you know. But you have to come alongside them first, really.

[00:17:04] And kind of hear why they want to take their own life. Get some of that out. And really deal with what's going on. Yeah, you know I agree with that. Yes. I've used this word in my life, and I don't know when I started, called space between. Yeah, I noticed that on your website. And so that's one reason I contacted you, actually. Because I was like, that is really cool. And I was like, oh, and that's a similar idea. In between, right.

[00:17:30] My contention, even though it probably is unprovable, is that there are a lot more people living in the space between. Which might be the same as saying living with suicide. Though I'm not sure, because that's actually a relatively new term for me. Then we think. There's farm work. Because people don't talk about it. And that's not a judgment on their choice not to talk about it. I understand by and large why most people choose not to talk about it. But what we do, and then I'll shut up and I want to hear more about your life.

[00:17:57] What we do, I find, is we put it on them. Elizabeth doesn't want to talk about it. Elizabeth is feeling shame. Elizabeth, I shouldn't use your name. Whoever. My focus always goes to what's around them. Who's creating the space for them to talk? If anyone. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, in some of your work, which I want to hear more about, like, maybe there's a different thread or a different conversation happening. What I always hear is like, oh yeah, they don't want to talk about it because there's such shame involved.

[00:18:25] And I'm like, yeah, I'm sure that's part of it, maybe. But like, it's also probably no one around that they can trust to talk to. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's a tricky thing. I think one thing I'm really grateful for, people in my church, I can talk to, I go to a community group and I can, if something in the sermon really relates to suicidality, like about Jesus' resurrection, that's huge for me.

[00:18:51] And I want to share, you know, just talk about my faith with respect to other beliefs and everything. And that's really been huge is to have that open space in community group to be able to talk about my suicidality and spirituality. And how do those two go together? Wait, so are any of the groups in which you talk about suicidality connected to the church? No, but actually, so what I'm talking about is actually my church group right now, part of that church group.

[00:19:20] And then I'm also part of several groups that are related to trying to live through suicidality and help people with things related to suicide. Though the question I was curious about is, can you have a conversation with anyone from your church about this? Yes. I've asked this question a lot too with anybody who has faith. What is your God or how does your God feel about suicide? So I didn't know Jesus when I was in college.

[00:19:46] And the way I dealt with it, the way I dealt with my suicidality was sometimes I would recite a Bible verse to myself, but I didn't really, it wasn't really powerful to me then. But mainly I just guilted myself out of it. I know it would hurt my friends and family. And yeah, and that's true. Knowing Jesus has just completely changed how I deal with my suicidality. I, now I really try to deal with it in a positive way.

[00:20:13] I just focus my mind on Jesus and what he did for me. I believe his life, his resurrected life is inside me. And so that's eternal. And I can die physically. I know I will eventually. But I believe like focusing on him just steadies me. And I believe he's giving me of his life. And so that's my most powerful thing that I do if I'm starting to feel suicidality. So it's really just really transformed a lot how I deal with it.

[00:20:43] When did you find him? August or September of 2017. I was helping out some with my family. And I just remember I came back home. I lay awake at night because I was feeling such joy. And I'm like, at first, what is going on? What's going on here? And I knew it was like things felt different, but it was like exactly where they should be. And I was just focused on Jesus and how he died for me. And just everything started changing since then.

[00:21:12] I started being actually humble in community group. And you should have seen the look on my husband's face the first time I did that because, boy, he was shocked. I would not have done that before. You said the shock came from you being humble? Yes. What were you before? Proud and arrogant, I guess I could say. How would that look or sound different? So I remember I was talking about some of my issues with anger and just kind of holding on to it.

[00:21:41] And I shared about that in community group. And the look on my husband's face was just like, because I would never have been that open. I wouldn't have before. And that was just the start. And things started changing. And then when I started going through suicidality again, it was like, wait a minute, this can change too? It was after that, that I took steps towards it again in 2020. And that was hard too. Like, oh boy. And the thing that is scary is like, but it doesn't necessarily mean you're in the clear.

[00:22:11] Oh yeah, definitely. Get back into it. Once you've tried all the stuff that could be like harder almost in a different way. So I want to make sure I have the timeline. I know we're kind of being loose about your life and we're not going into all the details. That's probably by design. But you grew up in the East Coast? Eastern U.S. Eastern U.S. Yeah. Oh, okay. Fine. Thank you for the correction. The struggle really started in college. I took steps multiple times.

[00:22:40] And then there was one time I was really, I was pretty intent on doing it. So I started taking a step towards really doing it and then my foot slipped. And that's when like I stopped. I didn't know it then, but I do believe God whacked my foot. Well, I always do ask or I often ask like what stops you? Yeah. Yeah. The slip. It doesn't make sense logically if you think about what I was thinking of doing. Well, it doesn't look like as much sense because we've chosen not to talk about method, but I'm using my imagination and I'm a visual guy.

[00:23:10] So it's, but that's cool. So you think it then, even though you didn't have faith then, it took you some time, it would take you some years to find Jesus. You think that was Jesus? Yeah. Yeah. I think he whacked my foot. You think when you found him in 2017, he was like a little bit like, took you a little longer than I expected. Like I was there for you. And I, and I didn't even see it for so many years. From what I hear, he's a pretty forgiving guy. So I'm sure you're okay. Incredibly.

[00:23:40] Yes. Yes. Incredibly. So there's probably a few years that go by. You had a trauma and you dealt with that and you had some stuff that you were dealing with. Is there any connection to the traumatic event in 2014 and finding God in 2017, do you think? I think basically I was blaming myself for the way my body and mind responded to the trauma. I was blaming myself for everything. And I was kind of miserable. I just felt like I was a failure.

[00:24:08] And then God came to me and was like, hey, I love you. And as somebody who's not a believer, but I respect your faith, of course, I'm in the agnostic camp for sure. How did you know? So there have been multiple things. It was, I knew it in my heart. I knew that things were changing. Yeah. Inside me, things were changing in the way I was thinking. I just knew. And I could see it like with people around me too. I started growing.

[00:24:37] I felt the love. I felt God's love in people around me. So love started changing. And I'm not saying I've reached a perfect state because I absolutely have not. Yeah. It's just things, things change. Things change in my heart and my mind and started little by little. And, and I'm just really grateful because yeah, I believe he's been with me and just held me all this time. So someone like me, I'm a little kind of an acerbic New Yorker, right? We would hear this.

[00:25:04] And I think I've toned down a little bit over the years, particularly doing this work. But then there's parts of me that would have been like, all right, so in 2017, this happens. If God loves you so much, you know, here's the classic challenge, right? If God loves you so much, why would he have put you through what happened in 2020? What sounded like bled into 2021? So I believe that God uses tough things and he uses us, uses them to grow us. And that's been tough.

[00:25:33] I, I do not believe Christians have it easier. I don't think we should have it easier because we're not protected from life. We're just, we're held through it and we're guided and supported through it. But it doesn't mean we don't go through the same stuff as everybody else. And I think that's an important thing. It makes sense what you said. Man, I envy, and I use that term accurately. I envy people who have legitimate faith. I just do. I envy them. I wish I would like them. I wish, I guess embedded in there a little bit is like your life is better or easier.

[00:26:03] And I don't mean that. But to have that sort of feeling where what I imagine that, what must that feel like is something like, I'd like that. This is not me inviting you in to try to convert me. Yeah. It's, it's a difference. I have known a big difference in between that. And also, you know, the times when I, after God brought me to him and before, there's been a big difference in between those times. And yeah, I appreciate you saying that. And also with respect to your beliefs as well. Well, my lack.

[00:26:32] I think it's more my lack thereof, but sure. Yes. A non-belief is a belief. Do you think without Jesus, you are alive? Spiritually, no. Definitely not. Not only what I meant, but I want to, but I want to hear the full answer. Physically. And I want to be careful how I say this because I don't want to make it sound like people can't get through it without Jesus. Although I really do believe that God helps people through it, even though they don't believe it.

[00:26:59] Well, like he did with me, I believe, you know, I wasn't following him then. And he still whacked my foot away. And I don't know that I would be without Jesus. Like if God hadn't saved me at that point, I don't know that I would be. But I also do believe that, you know, it's very possible he would have helped me through it still too, you know. I know you believe strongly enough that somehow he would have shown up. But my question was, he's just not there. If he didn't, probably not. These days, so we're in 2026 now and it's moving very fast.

[00:27:29] And it does literally feel like time is starting to move faster than it used to. And I think that might be aging. But it's freaking me out. How often do you think about it, if at all? I do think about it still, definitely. I wouldn't say it's every single day. It definitely used to be for a while. As I think when people say, I think about it, that can mean a lot of things. For some people, that's just sort of the idea of it out there somewhere. Maybe they're studying it. That counts as thinking about it. But you know what I mean. It's true. The question is really.

[00:27:59] So I'm actually a little surprised. I thought, and I don't know why, I thought, given what you shared, that the answer would have been, I think about it once in a while. There's no reason that I had that. I just did not expect you to say, it's not every day, which means it's still pretty often. Yes. Yeah, it is. I'll share that openly. It is pretty often, pretty frequent. And that's okay. And you have places to talk about it. And one of them is a group you run. Yeah. Well, I'm part of.

[00:28:27] I'm not really the leader of any of the groups, but I'm part of them. One of them is P.A.S.E., people addressing and understanding suicidal intensity. Quick PSA, public shot announcement. After we spoke, Elizabeth, let me know that in fact, P.A.S.E. is people addressing and understanding suicide experiences. Just to clarify, back to the conversation. And the other one is living beyond suicide.

[00:28:54] I'm also a board member of the Suicide Prevention Alliance. So you are staying busy. And I know that Alliance has an annual conference. So that might be something that people want to learn more about. There's a few places where you're involved and you can talk about it. Yes. We welcome people from everywhere. And most of these meetings are online. Yes. That's cool that you're involved in that. And that it helps. It helps you. It helps others. There's, you said earlier that you had some, I don't know what the word is.

[00:29:21] I might be paraphrasing a little bit, but you read a story or heard something from somebody who covered from an attempt, I believe, and it gave you some hope because they were doing better. And then I asked you, are you doing better? And you said yes, which is really interesting. So the answer can coexist with, yes, I'm doing better. And I often think about it. Yeah. Those two kind of go together. I would say maybe with the start of COVID or maybe it might've been a little before that that I started thinking about it basically every day. It can be very different though.

[00:29:51] I think that's one thing that people also don't tend to talk about is that there's different intensities of it. So most of the time when I feel it, it's kind of like, okay, got it, can handle it. It's manageable. I actually, what I did is I created a scale for myself and my friends and my therapist. It's a scale of like how strong the feelings are and how well I think I can handle them without acting.

[00:30:18] Basically, it's from one to 10 where 10 is seeking out the means. Four is, four used to be my daily normal, but it's not anymore. It's not as strong. Six is where I'm supposed to let my therapist know. Eight is like, yeah, definitely need to reach out for help at that point. Although sometimes actually what I do is if it's really strong, sometimes, sometimes it's a little easier to just kind of postpone making plans.

[00:30:46] And if I'll be like, okay, I really want to think about this. Sometimes it's kind of the waiting game because I know I'll feel better the next day. So. Right, right, right, right, right, right, right. You've learned that. Yeah. Yeah. Everything we've talked about, not that we're done. Does your husband know all of this? Yes. Oh yeah. I mean, there are some people who are married, they're like, this part of the conversation, they don't always go and share everything. How long have you guys been together? We got married in 2010. Okay. So you've made it a little while. Yep. Mm-hmm.

[00:31:16] Congratulations. 15 years as of last year. Thank you. Yeah, 16 years. One human being cohabitating, I assume, amazing how that two people can do that. Any two people. It's just incredible. Yeah, it is a challenge and it's a challenge living through suicidality with that too. And it's tricky figuring out boundaries and stuff like that. But yeah, I'm really grateful for my husband, especially for one time I called him when I

[00:31:44] was in a really tricky place, feeling very strong suicidality. I think he was kind of surprised at first actually, but I, and I told him what was going on and he said, God is holding you right now. You didn't meet through the church? Uh, we actually did through a different church, but I didn't know Jesus at that point. That's what I was thinking because it was too long. It was way before then. Yeah. Yes. He was pretty surprised too. When do you first start talking about this stuff with someone? It's probably not the first date. I'm sorry. We talked about this pretty early on.

[00:32:14] I thought I could earn God's favor before then, beforehand. And so I thought I was, I thought I did believe in Jesus, but I didn't because I wasn't really trusting in him. That's really what changed. And so he, he thought I was a Christian, but I thought I was a Christian, but I wasn't. And then in 2017, like, whoa, it's probably one of the biggest surprises of his life. Okay. So a few other things that I'm curious about. I never asked you how you even know about me or this podcast.

[00:32:42] So I found out through some friends and I saw the in-between thing that you had. And that really reminded me of my own writing. And I was like, that's really cool that two people going through suicidality had thought of something that similar. Like you were saying, how many, many more people lived through it than we know about. And I think that's completely true. And I think studies have started to show like a third to 50%, like seriously, will experience that in their lifetime.

[00:33:09] So it's like, why can't we just talk about this and kind of coach one another and how we deal with it? And that would help people live through it. You know? What do you think the answer is to that question? I think our, our culture has a very strong fear of death and anything associated with death is kind of like, and people don't want to think that they might get there themselves. There's also that statistic associated with mental illness, which has been disproved that

[00:33:38] like 90% of people who died by suicide had a mental illness, but actually it turns out it's a lot less or significantly, like maybe 50 to 60. Yeah. And a lot of people just do think about this and it's kind of a, just a human thing. You know? I don't think we have to classify it as something disordered. And now I don't like it. I wish I didn't feel this way. You know? It's just kind of part of being human for a lot of human beings. Not everyone. Not everybody. Of course.

[00:34:07] Given, given some of the stuff you're involved in, I'm going to make an assumption. You'll tell me if I'm wrong, that there's a, not a small number of people who know that Elizabeth has come close to ending her life. Oh yeah. I share it. Yeah. I'm very open in all the groups I'm part of and they know, and I'm just, I'm really grateful for them too. Cause incredible support. And connected to that is how many people do you have to talk to about it? And it's like, I kind of think those two go hand in hand given what you just said. Yes. Yeah, they do.

[00:34:35] Do you think you'll always be living with suicide? You mean having suicidal feelings? I'm going to let you define that however you want. So yeah. Or answer that however you want. Yeah. So sure. I would answer that. Like, I hope not. I would love for it to, I'd like to not feel that. And I'm really grateful for how it's better than it used to be. Somewhat in frequency and definitely in intensity of suicidal feelings. I don't know. Yeah.

[00:35:04] To be honest, I just don't know. But I do believe I can live a purposeful life with it. The pink and purple pill question. If you've heard the podcast in the last few years, you've heard that question asked. Yep. More and more. I think this is dangerous. I assume I know the person's answer. Sometimes I'm right. And sometimes I'm wrong. And sometimes I'll tell them. And sometimes I won't. And all it is simply is that if I give Elizabeth this pill and she swallows it, she'll gently go to sleep. She doesn't wake up. There's no pain. And nobody knows it's a suicide.

[00:35:33] Although some people say, no, I actually want them to know. So it's like, all right, you can play around with that if you want to. And what would you do with it? No, thank you. That's my answer. I will be honest if part of me would want it. Yeah. I'll be honest about that. I think you've been honest this whole time. Am I wrong? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. But yeah, you would want. Part of me would want it, but it's just been pushing me around for so long. And the answer is no.

[00:35:59] And I actually have kind of a, like a, a story related to something similar to that. If it's okay if I share that. Not to specifically a pink and purple pill, I have to say. So there was this one time that I heard somebody to whom I could really relate, share. So I went up to them afterwards and I thanked them for sharing. And I told them, you know, some of the stuff we had in common. He said to me, keep fighting. I looked down and he knew I hadn't decided.

[00:36:26] And I don't know how, I think God like put on his mind, like he knew. And I'm like, how? And so he held on his pinky. He asked me, pinky swear? And gave me a big smile. So I looked up and it was just one of those moments where you catch your breath because it's like, wow, this is just like a life defining moment here. Some people could say coincidence. Yeah. Oh yeah. I realized that and respect that too. Yes. It was incredible. And so I pinky swarmed.

[00:36:53] And so I just realized at that point it's time. It's time to say no. And so that's my answer. I'd like to say real quick too, that I do not think you can push someone to that point because I think it has to be something that comes from within. So like no suicide contracts. Yeah. Signed one of those. My college time did that. You have to do it. But it's kind of, yeah. Now they gave me a safety plan too. And actually that was kind of helpful. That stuff filled out.

[00:37:23] And then I signed one with some friends. And although actually that was a little different because technically what they asked me is not to harm myself without talking to them. That's different. Yeah. Sometimes those contracts, especially if it's from an institution, that's just as much for them as it is for you. Probably more so, just to be honest. Doesn't tend to help people so much. Although I know one person, something like that did help. Yeah. There's always going to be an exception to almost all of this, right? Oh, yeah.

[00:37:50] It's also interesting that you said he did a pinky swear. Pinky swear. And it's a pink and purple pill. That is funny. I hadn't even thought of that. So we're using the word pink twice. So that can't be coincidence. No way. Are there, these tend to come up organically, but are there any like really big myths or misconceptions about kind of any of this stuff that you want to dispel? So I think one of them would be kind of as we talked about before, the number of people

[00:38:19] who feel suicidal thoughts and feelings is a lot bigger than we think. Also the one about mental illness, definitely that it's not necessarily related to a mental illness. I think it's just a human thing. I mean, people have been thinking about it for almost as long as there have been people, basically. You can't prove that, but I think so. Yeah. So it's kind of like, you know, we learn how to drive through rain and snow and sleet, and we don't learn how to deal with this. Why?

[00:38:47] You know, why can't we just talk about this and grow together? I think. So the myth behind that is? I guess the myth would be that the number is very small. Yeah. Of people who, or the myth, another myth could be that everyone who feels suicidal intensity acts on it. Another myth could be that everyone who attempts suicide will eventually die by it because that's actually very much not true. Not very much factually not true. Yeah.

[00:39:17] Like some of the stuff is subjective, but that's objectively true. Yeah. So there's a lot of living through that goes on just around us. How long have you been involved in these groups specifically where you could talk openly about suicide? December of 2021. Is there one or two things, because it's kind of connected to all the stuff and myths or whatever else. I'm not putting you on the spot a little bit, but like, is there one thing with all of these conversations you've had that are different in nature than mine, maybe, but like you've had a lot of them or you've heard a lot of people talking about it. Yeah.

[00:39:45] Sometimes it's probably you've heard the same person over three years. Sometimes you see the person once. I'm sure it's the whole spectrum. It's kind of a big question, but it's like, is there something you've learned? Is there something that's been especially surprising? I'm sure we could do a long list, but what comes to mind as the big stuff? One, how hard it is to lose somebody to it. I haven't lost somebody, but I had no idea.

[00:40:12] And then I started hearing lost survivor stories because there are lost survivors involved too. That's when I tend to get a little teary eyed over here. And that like, oh my word, my family, my friends could have been going through that. And it's worth every ounce of effort and energy and tons more that I put into fighting it because, ouch, I had no idea. No clue whatsoever. I wasn't expecting that.

[00:40:37] But also the groups, like we welcome different people with different experiences. And I actually think that's really good to have people together for the reason that I just shared. Like, I think it's good, not in a shaming, blaming way to know, hey, you know, this would hurt. This is where you need really solid facilitator. Oh, yes. Yes, definitely. It does have to be done very carefully.

[00:41:04] And I mean, I've never felt any lost survivors who are like getting at me. In fact, they tend to like reach out and like, hey, would you like support? I'm here. It's incredible how they do that. Yeah. So no hospital stays for you for mental health? No. Just a couple like random things that I'm just personally curious about. For your adult life, like, I don't want to make any assumptions that you had a job, but I like, do you have any kids? What was your job? Like, life stuff.

[00:41:33] I'm a teacher and teacher's aide. Okay. At a small group and not at a public school, but a small independent group. Like, I try to teach some emotional stuff, even like without using the word suicide. Generally, I just try to teach like emotional coping with emotions, dealing with them. And these are probably with children, right? Yes. Yes. So you know who really needs those lessons though, right? It's the grownups. The grownups. Yes. That's true too.

[00:42:02] We teach the stuff and then we stop. So just a thought I've had lately, like, yeah, like at five years old, like half of what's going on is just how to get along. Yeah. And then you start getting into the subjects. The kids I teach, they're actually, some of them are younger, but some of them are just at the age where they're starting to think about deep stuff. Their minds are starting to open. And so I think it's a crucial time for them.

[00:42:29] A lot of times when I teach something emotionally related, I'll be learning the same thing. Like God wants me to teach this stuff. Like, okay, you need to learn this. So there you go. Yeah, absolutely. So, but your memoir title, just to be clear, Reflections of a Suicidal Empath. There's no, God is not in there. In between is not in there. Maybe it might show up in the text if the book is ever written. Subtitle. And it's yours. So I'm glad you found something you like. If you were me, would you ask a question that I don't ask?

[00:42:59] Is there something you want to talk about that I don't bring up? Well, you had us in the list of questions. You had what helps. And I think we talked some about that. We did. Right. So I don't always necessarily ask it again, but please add to it. No, first of all, focusing my mind on Jesus and talking with someone generally who's okay with that. There are other things that can help too. Like I like to exercise. It really helps me to get up, get out some of the, like the steam that builds up inside me. Oh, yes.

[00:43:29] So I like to walk and jog. Sometimes outside, sometimes in the weather, sometimes in bad weather. Cold temperatures are also helpful. So I like the winter better than the summer. You do realize, Elizabeth, that when you say Eastern U.S., you probably just, people now know you don't live in Florida. That's okay. But there's still a huge number of acres that you're not, you're not finding there. Just let's, trust me on that one. You're safely tucked away where you are. Those are all cool things, healthy things. Yeah.

[00:43:59] Yeah. And I think people like know them often. It's just that it's hard to do them sometimes. Yeah. Yeah. And I think one thing too, like for me is trying to kind of catch it early on because later on it's going to be a lot harder to deal with. It's much easier to try to catch the thing early on when it's kind of like if it's building up. And I actually use the analogy of a bull, like a male cow. Okay. That's my response.

[00:44:26] And it thinks that suicide is the ultimate self-protective act basically. So I'll refer to it, like I'll say to my friends sometimes, if I've gone, been doing something that I was concerned might be a problem, but it's not. I'll say the bull is sleeping in his pen. Just to make sure bull, B-U-L-L. What does the bull is sleeping in its pen mean? It basically means that it wasn't a trauma. Whatever I did was not a trauma problem for me. Things are okay at this point.

[00:44:54] Sometimes it'll be kind of like sniffing over my shoulder and I'm speaking metaphorically totally. I love metaphors. I think it's a good way of describing things because it's hard to, you know, I think in English especially it's a tricky thing. So it's been really helpful to me. And sometimes the bull is like jumping and tossing around and somehow like attach the thing trying to kind of keep myself from getting injured. And that's when I'd be pretty high up on my scale.

[00:45:20] You said something interesting though that sometimes you're, I think you said the trauma response from understanding is the thing that lets you believe that suicide is the ultimate suicide. Is it a protective factor you said? Protective act basically. Some people will tell me it's not for them. It feels like it's just like something they need to have as a possibility. It makes them feel like just knowing it's there is helpful. Yeah. It's an interesting dynamic. Yeah. It's not like that for me.

[00:45:48] No, it's like an intruder. Like, I don't want you here. Go away. And then the other thing too is that sometimes if I'm trying to interact with other people, well, the bull is going bananas inside of me. For example, someone in the china shop trying to kind of manage this bull. And meanwhile, a customer calls and they're maybe getting a little crabby because they're not getting my full attention. Like, I'm sorry, but I've got this bull like crabby bananas inside me. It's like trying to focus on like, eh, I can't do that.

[00:46:18] And it's a china shop. Yes. So I had some more pressure to you in that moment. Yes. Well, it was fun. I appreciate talking with you. What else, if anything, do you want to share with me? And then, you know, there will be other people that hear this at some point. Let's see. I'd like to say a few things to some of the other, some of my friends and family. Sure. So that means presumably they're going to hear it. Are you going to listen to this episode? I wonder.

[00:46:45] I'm going to listen, but it might take a bit because sometimes when I listen to myself, it's like, ah. No, but I think this is really cool. And it's something that people don't do very often. What you're doing right now is like you're specifically speaking to people, like specific people in your life. I like it. I love it. Thank you. First, just to God, to Jesus for dying for me. That crazy love just for holding me through everything. My husband, I'm grateful to him just for being there for me. By the time he said God was holding me.

[00:47:12] And another time when he knew I needed someone around, even though I was kind of trying to get him away. But no, he knew my counselor who I can talk with openly, which is really incredible because sometimes that's not the case. And my family and friends just for listening, for praying with me and for me and for showing me them special in different ways. I seriously owe them a lot.

[00:47:36] And fellow bench pressers, other people who are living through suicidal intensity and my other colleagues in the groups, you help me to know that it's possible to live through this stuff to get through it. So thank you. And I just know we're going to keep on changing the world and shaking it up. Nicely said. I've never heard this term in this context, bench pressers. That's what I had from the thing I wrote, bench pressing. Is this just about weight? It's about weight.

[00:48:03] Yes, because it feels like I'm carrying weight and at the same time trying to keep myself afloat. And it's like those two things together, like, how do I do this at the same time? That's to represent really strong suicidal intensity. Most of the time when I feel it, it's more like it's kind of normal to me. It's just part of my life. But when it gets more intense, then it's more challenging. Yeah. Thanks for talking. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. My pleasure. It was a good chat. I really appreciate it. I hope the rest of your day is nice. I hope our paths cross again soon.

[00:48:33] Yeah. Thank you. All right. Bye, Elizabeth. Take care. Bye. As always, thanks so much for listening and all of your support. And special thanks to Elizabeth in the Eastern United States. Thanks, Elizabeth. If you are a suicide attempt survivor or ideator and you'd like to talk, I'd love to talk with you. Please reach out. Hello at suicidenoted.com. Again, want to thank Matt for his financial contribution. Tax deductible, of course. Appreciate it, Matt. And that's all for this week's episode. Stay strong. Do the best you can.

[00:49:03] I'll talk to you soon. I'll talk to you soon.